Bonds and Clements dogged by PEDs, Schilling dogged mostly by politics but also being borderline in some minds - all three next year is their last eligible year I believe.
SportsCenter
@SportsCenter
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30s
No players on the 2021 Baseball Hall of Fame ballot reached the necessary 75 percent for induction.
Quote:
...The leading vote-getter was controversial pitcher Curt Schilling, who was named on 71.1 percent of the ballots, 16 votes shy of the minimum needed for selection. Schilling was followed by all-time home run leader Barry Bonds' (61.8 percent) and 354-game winner Roger Clemens (61.6) in the voting....
how arguably the greatest defensive outfielder in baseball history, and thus one of the greatest defensive players in history-- who ALSO hit 434 HRs doesn't make the Hall of Fame.
RE: Honestly it's a joke without Schilling as well
character matters? It's a baseball hall of Fame, not a hall for very nice people who were always great at baseball. If that's part of the selection process, the selection process is a joke. Ty Cobb, from all accounts, wasn't a saint, but he's in.
is not a clear cut HOFer. Maybe he belongs. Clemens is arguably the greatest pitcher of all time. Certainly top-5. He is so much greater than Schilling it's an embarrassment to compare them.
Likewise, Bonds is arguably the greatest hitter of all time.
character matters? It's a baseball hall of Fame, not a hall for very nice people who were always great at baseball. If that's part of the selection process, the selection process is a joke. Ty Cobb, from all accounts, wasn't a saint, but he's in.
Wrong.
Quote:
Each Hall of Fame candidate must have been retired for at least five seasons and have played at least ten seasons in major league baseball. Inductees are selected by careful examination of their qualifications, including their playing record, character and integrity.
Bonds is one of the biggest pricks I can recall, but wasn't he a HOFer even before he started juicing? He put monster #s in Pittsburgh & SF before he apparently got jealous of the coverage McGwire & Sosa got & decided to start juicing. It is funny if you look at a picture of Bonds as a Pirate & then compare it to Bonds circa 2001, 2002.
Embarrassing or not, he ain't getting next year as well. Character matters.
Why should character matter and why do writers get to decide what character is good and what character is bad? I guarantee you could dig up a whole bunch of shit on these holier than thou sports writers if you wanted. The Hall of Fame is about BASEBALL. Incredibly flawed people shouldn’t be allowed to castigate others based on personal beliefs when it comes to a shrine that recognizes baseball excellence. This isn’t the Nobel Peace Prize we are debating here
Bonds is one of the biggest pricks I can recall, but wasn't he a HOFer even before he started juicing? He put monster #s in Pittsburgh & SF before he apparently got jealous of the coverage McGwire & Sosa got & decided to start juicing. It is funny if you look at a picture of Bonds as a Pirate & then compare it to Bonds circa 2001, 2002.
yes.. and Clemens was a HoFer before he juiced. Both guys need to be in. ARod as well.
Stan, again then it's stupid. Character? If character was a factor in all sports, LT sure as hell isn't in Canton. This is what these dudes did on the field, diamond, court, ring, etc.
is not a clear cut HOFer. Maybe he belongs. Clemens is arguably the greatest pitcher of all time. Certainly top-5. He is so much greater than Schilling it's an embarrassment to compare them.
Likewise, Bonds is arguably the greatest hitter of all time.
I think you need to take a deeper dive into Schilling's numbers. His post-season record is second to nobody and is arguably the best big game pitcher ever.
Embarrassing or not, he ain't getting next year as well. Character matters.
Why should character matter and why do writers get to decide what character is good and what character is bad? I guarantee you could dig up a whole bunch of shit on these holier than thou sports writers if you wanted. The Hall of Fame is about BASEBALL. Incredibly flawed people shouldn’t be allowed to castigate others based on personal beliefs when it comes to a shrine that recognizes baseball excellence. This isn’t the Nobel Peace Prize we are debating here
Agreed. Lots of sanctimonious attitudes at work here...
is not a clear cut HOFer. Maybe he belongs. Clemens is arguably the greatest pitcher of all time. Certainly top-5. He is so much greater than Schilling it's an embarrassment to compare them.
Likewise, Bonds is arguably the greatest hitter of all time.
I think you need to take a deeper dive into Schilling's numbers. His post-season record is second to nobody and is arguably the best big game pitcher ever.
I like him as a pitcher. I wanted the Yankees to get him before he went to Zona. I don't like his public persona, but I'd vote him in, probably. But he can't carry Clemens' jock strap. Clemens belongs alongside Walter Johnson, Grover Cleveland, Bob Feller, Tom Seaver, Lefty Grove. Schilling is not in that class. Not ever.
Stan, again then it's stupid. Character? If character was a factor in all sports, LT sure as hell isn't in Canton. This is what these dudes did on the field, diamond, court, ring, etc.
Nope. Them's the rules. Check this out:
Quote:
Schilling has been a lightning rod across his time on the Hall of Fame ballot for his alt-right conservative views; in 2016, for instance, he posted a picture to his Twitter account of someone wearing a T-shirt that read: “Rope. Tree. Journalist. Some assembly required.” Schilling added the comment “OK, so much awesome here…” That didn’t exactly endear himself to the writers who would be voting for him.
Words matter. He's NEVER getting in and good for that.
Classifying some of Curt’s statements as “politics” is a stretch.
Amazing that his “Rope. Tree. Journalist. Some assembly required” endorsement may have rubbed some journalists the wrong way when it came time to fill out those ballots. Oh well. Hopefully Eli Manning takes a different approach.
Stan, again then it's stupid. Character? If character was a factor in all sports, LT sure as hell isn't in Canton. This is what these dudes did on the field, diamond, court, ring, etc.
Nope. Them's the rules. Check this out:
Quote:
Schilling has been a lightning rod across his time on the Hall of Fame ballot for his alt-right conservative views; in 2016, for instance, he posted a picture to his Twitter account of someone wearing a T-shirt that read: “Rope. Tree. Journalist. Some assembly required.” Schilling added the comment “OK, so much awesome here…” That didn’t exactly endear himself to the writers who would be voting for him.
Words matter. He's NEVER getting in and good for that.
Stan, again then it's stupid. Character? If character was a factor in all sports, LT sure as hell isn't in Canton. This is what these dudes did on the field, diamond, court, ring, etc.
Nope. Them's the rules. Check this out:
Quote:
Schilling has been a lightning rod across his time on the Hall of Fame ballot for his alt-right conservative views; in 2016, for instance, he posted a picture to his Twitter account of someone wearing a T-shirt that read: “Rope. Tree. Journalist. Some assembly required.” Schilling added the comment “OK, so much awesome here…” That didn’t exactly endear himself to the writers who would be voting for him.
Words matter. He's NEVER getting in and good for that.
I think you need to take a deeper dive into Schilling's numbers. His post-season record is second to nobody and is arguably the best big game pitcher ever.
I like him as a pitcher. I wanted the Yankees to get him before he went to Zona. I don't like his public persona, but I'd vote him in, probably. But he can't carry Clemens' jock strap. Clemens belongs alongside Walter Johnson, Grover Cleveland, Bob Feller, Tom Seaver, Lefty Grove. Schilling is not in that class. Not ever.
I'm not putting CS in the class of pitchers you listed. They are the elite.
But Schilling was a very, very good regular season pitcher and was 11-2 in the post-season. And he was 3-0 in elimination games with an era below 1.50.
I don't even know if I'm in the minority anymore on this
but I 100% believe Bonds and Clemens both belong in the HoF, no questions asked. If anything, Bonds proved why a bunch of other guys like Ortiz, McGwire, etc. don't belong in. He was a sure fire HoF and potentially the best player ever before he started using. By just about all accounts, he started using because he was jealous of McGwire and Sosa getting all the attention. So, what does he do? Goes out and smashes records.
Him on steroids set himself apart from the rest of the league in a ridiculous fashion not approached since Babe Ruth started hitting full time. Sure, he may have hit less HRs and/or played a year or two less. But, before he used PEDs he was on a career pace of over 600 HRs, to go along with multiple MVPs before use, gold gloves, etc.
Clemens is similar, but not on the same level. He had multiple Cy Youngs and an MVP (didn't deserve that one).
The one guy who I think should not be in is A-Rod. The reason why is there are some reports that have him using as early as HS. Most have him starting no later than his start in Texas. So, most of his career had been tainted by PED use, making it impossible to judge his greatness.
But, in contrast, a guy like Ortiz doesn't even sniff 500 HRs without using. McGwire was a prolific HR hitter out of the gate. But, he likely would have played about 5 years less without using. That is where his using had the biggest impact. Sosa also was nowhere near the power hitter he was once he started using.
Stan, again then it's stupid. Character? If character was a factor in all sports, LT sure as hell isn't in Canton. This is what these dudes did on the field, diamond, court, ring, etc.
Nope. Them's the rules. Check this out:
Quote:
Schilling has been a lightning rod across his time on the Hall of Fame ballot for his alt-right conservative views; in 2016, for instance, he posted a picture to his Twitter account of someone wearing a T-shirt that read: “Rope. Tree. Journalist. Some assembly required.” Schilling added the comment “OK, so much awesome here…” That didn’t exactly endear himself to the writers who would be voting for him.
Words matter. He's NEVER getting in and good for that.
Sure is easy to tell you’ live in LA. Preachy, judgemental , sanctimonious fraud that has no problems calling out others for lacking character while being complete disgraces to society while they think nobody is watching. You’ve been hanging out in Hollywood too much, Stan. Scum of the earth.
Stan, again then it's stupid. Character? If character was a factor in all sports, LT sure as hell isn't in Canton. This is what these dudes did on the field, diamond, court, ring, etc.
Nope. Them's the rules. Check this out:
Quote:
Schilling has been a lightning rod across his time on the Hall of Fame ballot for his alt-right conservative views; in 2016, for instance, he posted a picture to his Twitter account of someone wearing a T-shirt that read: “Rope. Tree. Journalist. Some assembly required.” Schilling added the comment “OK, so much awesome here…” That didn’t exactly endear himself to the writers who would be voting for him.
Words matter. He's NEVER getting in and good for that.
Sure is easy to tell you’ live in LA. Preachy, judgemental , sanctimonious fraud that has no problems calling out others for lacking character while being complete disgraces to society while they think nobody is watching. You’ve been hanging out in Hollywood too much, Stan. Scum of the earth.
Stan, again then it's stupid. Character? If character was a factor in all sports, LT sure as hell isn't in Canton. This is what these dudes did on the field, diamond, court, ring, etc.
Nope. Them's the rules. Check this out:
Quote:
Schilling has been a lightning rod across his time on the Hall of Fame ballot for his alt-right conservative views; in 2016, for instance, he posted a picture to his Twitter account of someone wearing a T-shirt that read: “Rope. Tree. Journalist. Some assembly required.” Schilling added the comment “OK, so much awesome here…” That didn’t exactly endear himself to the writers who would be voting for him.
Words matter. He's NEVER getting in and good for that.
Sure is easy to tell you’ live in LA. Preachy, judgemental , sanctimonious fraud that has no problems calling out others for lacking character while being complete disgraces to society while they think nobody is watching. You’ve been hanging out in Hollywood too much, Stan. Scum of the earth.
I think you could disagree with this gentleman without dissing Los Angeles and making it personal. LA is a great American city. Of course I like New York ( ;) ) more but LA is fantastic, and it has amazing weather. I don't know why you have to go out of your way to bash a whole city.
I always thought he was on the bubble. But, I can see both arguments. On one hand he barely won 200 games and at less than 60%. On the other hand, he has overly impressive post season stats and his WAR are at a very high level. For a comparison, I wonder how you stack up a pitcher against a hitter. I think of a guy like Reggie (who I loved). He got in for his post season play more than anything. Sure, he still needed over 500 HRs, but it is the post season that made him a sure thing. As a pitcher, what win total would Schilling have had to hit to get the same kind of consideration. I think the answer is more than 216.
By contrast, Andy Pettitte has 40 more wins and a higher win percentage, a very good post season performer and is still considered a just miss by most.
Bottom line, I would have no problem with Schilling getting in (even though I can't stand him), but I'm not enraged that he isn't either.
OJ is in the football HOF. Who decides character? That’s so ridiculous. Ty Cobb is in the baseball HOF. Schilling is in because his political opinions conflict with the vast majority of journalists, and it’s bullshit.
The odd part is that the HOF itself is enforcing the rule
Check out this interview with the then President of the HOF who went into great detail on the focus on character and his defense of those already in. In essence, his argument is that you have to use the view of society at the time of the election.
It’s really gonna piss me off if Ortiz gets in and the other roiders don’t.
Ortiz is the barometer. IF he gets in, and it is highly likely, then not voting in Bonds, Clemens, and A-Rod is an absolute joke, as was making Piazza wait. Ortiz really wasn't half the player of any of those guys. Plus, I never understood the fascination with him by the media. He is not a big, lovable teddy bear. He is a jerk and he's been a better case for PEDs than most of the other guys being villified.
OJ is in the football HOF. Who decides character? That’s so ridiculous. Ty Cobb is in the baseball HOF. Schilling is in because his political opinions conflict with the vast majority of journalists, and it’s bullshit.
First, the NFL, or more accurately pro football, has it's own criteria. Second, even looking at that to compare, OJ was in long before he was suspected of murder. When he went into the HoF, he was a wildly popular figure that transcended sport.
Re. Ortiz...I was up in Portsmouth, NH a couple of summers back with some cousins/friends & somehow we got to talking steroids in baseball. It's amazing the lengths Sox fans-which pretty much all of them are-will go to defend Ortiz against PED allegations. And I agree...if he gets in, a total joke.
Wins aside, I think he's clearly a superior pitcher to Pettitte - significantly better ERA, WHIP, K's. It's not that close. I think he compares will with recent guys like Moose and Glavine, and the post-season performances are really big.
That said, I can't get worked up about it that he hasn't gotten in, and probably won't (at least on the writers' ballot). The stuff he's said goes way beyond being political to being offensive and mocking victimized people. That shouldn't keep him out of the HOF, but if he gets punished for being a mean spirited ahole, so be it.
@BNightengale
Curt Schilling in letter to the Hall of Fame: "I will not participate in the final year of voting. I am requesting to be removed from the ballot. I’ll defer to the veterans committee and men whose opinions actually matter and who are in a position to actually judge a player.''
Schilling, Bonds, then Clemens top 3.
Bonds and Clements dogged by PEDs, Schilling dogged mostly by politics but also being borderline in some minds - all three next year is their last eligible year I believe.
SportsCenter
@SportsCenter
·
30s
No players on the 2021 Baseball Hall of Fame ballot reached the necessary 75 percent for induction.
link - ( New Window )
Scott Rolen looks like he'll probably get in in a few years.
Agreed
Correct
Embarrassing or not, he ain't getting next year as well. Character matters.
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that Schilling is being put through this.
Embarrassing or not, he ain't getting next year as well. Character matters.
I agree he likely won't get in.
He doesn't have a character problem. His problem is his political viewpoint doesn't match up.
Likewise, Bonds is arguably the greatest hitter of all time.
You're beyond stupid.
Wrong.
Link - ( New Window )
Quote:
that Schilling is being put through this.
Embarrassing or not, he ain't getting next year as well. Character matters.
Why should character matter and why do writers get to decide what character is good and what character is bad? I guarantee you could dig up a whole bunch of shit on these holier than thou sports writers if you wanted. The Hall of Fame is about BASEBALL. Incredibly flawed people shouldn’t be allowed to castigate others based on personal beliefs when it comes to a shrine that recognizes baseball excellence. This isn’t the Nobel Peace Prize we are debating here
yes.. and Clemens was a HoFer before he juiced. Both guys need to be in. ARod as well.
Likewise, Bonds is arguably the greatest hitter of all time.
I think you need to take a deeper dive into Schilling's numbers. His post-season record is second to nobody and is arguably the best big game pitcher ever.
Quote:
In comment 15135218 bw in dc said:
Quote:
that Schilling is being put through this.
Embarrassing or not, he ain't getting next year as well. Character matters.
Why should character matter and why do writers get to decide what character is good and what character is bad? I guarantee you could dig up a whole bunch of shit on these holier than thou sports writers if you wanted. The Hall of Fame is about BASEBALL. Incredibly flawed people shouldn’t be allowed to castigate others based on personal beliefs when it comes to a shrine that recognizes baseball excellence. This isn’t the Nobel Peace Prize we are debating here
Agreed. Lots of sanctimonious attitudes at work here...
Schilling was a big game pitcher no doubt.
Quote:
is not a clear cut HOFer. Maybe he belongs. Clemens is arguably the greatest pitcher of all time. Certainly top-5. He is so much greater than Schilling it's an embarrassment to compare them.
Likewise, Bonds is arguably the greatest hitter of all time.
I think you need to take a deeper dive into Schilling's numbers. His post-season record is second to nobody and is arguably the best big game pitcher ever.
I like him as a pitcher. I wanted the Yankees to get him before he went to Zona. I don't like his public persona, but I'd vote him in, probably. But he can't carry Clemens' jock strap. Clemens belongs alongside Walter Johnson, Grover Cleveland, Bob Feller, Tom Seaver, Lefty Grove. Schilling is not in that class. Not ever.
This 'character' component is so F'ing lame.
Nope. Them's the rules. Check this out:
Schilling has been a lightning rod across his time on the Hall of Fame ballot for his alt-right conservative views; in 2016, for instance, he posted a picture to his Twitter account of someone wearing a T-shirt that read: “Rope. Tree. Journalist. Some assembly required.” Schilling added the comment “OK, so much awesome here…” That didn’t exactly endear himself to the writers who would be voting for him.
Words matter. He's NEVER getting in and good for that.
Quote:
Stan, again then it's stupid. Character? If character was a factor in all sports, LT sure as hell isn't in Canton. This is what these dudes did on the field, diamond, court, ring, etc.
Nope. Them's the rules. Check this out:
Quote:
Schilling has been a lightning rod across his time on the Hall of Fame ballot for his alt-right conservative views; in 2016, for instance, he posted a picture to his Twitter account of someone wearing a T-shirt that read: “Rope. Tree. Journalist. Some assembly required.” Schilling added the comment “OK, so much awesome here…” That didn’t exactly endear himself to the writers who would be voting for him.
Words matter. He's NEVER getting in and good for that.
Well that seals it, he's getting in.
Quote:
In comment 15135242 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
Stan, again then it's stupid. Character? If character was a factor in all sports, LT sure as hell isn't in Canton. This is what these dudes did on the field, diamond, court, ring, etc.
Nope. Them's the rules. Check this out:
Quote:
Schilling has been a lightning rod across his time on the Hall of Fame ballot for his alt-right conservative views; in 2016, for instance, he posted a picture to his Twitter account of someone wearing a T-shirt that read: “Rope. Tree. Journalist. Some assembly required.” Schilling added the comment “OK, so much awesome here…” That didn’t exactly endear himself to the writers who would be voting for him.
Words matter. He's NEVER getting in and good for that.
Well that seals it, he's getting in.
Wanna bet?
I think you need to take a deeper dive into Schilling's numbers. His post-season record is second to nobody and is arguably the best big game pitcher ever.
I like him as a pitcher. I wanted the Yankees to get him before he went to Zona. I don't like his public persona, but I'd vote him in, probably. But he can't carry Clemens' jock strap. Clemens belongs alongside Walter Johnson, Grover Cleveland, Bob Feller, Tom Seaver, Lefty Grove. Schilling is not in that class. Not ever.
I'm not putting CS in the class of pitchers you listed. They are the elite.
But Schilling was a very, very good regular season pitcher and was 11-2 in the post-season. And he was 3-0 in elimination games with an era below 1.50.
Him on steroids set himself apart from the rest of the league in a ridiculous fashion not approached since Babe Ruth started hitting full time. Sure, he may have hit less HRs and/or played a year or two less. But, before he used PEDs he was on a career pace of over 600 HRs, to go along with multiple MVPs before use, gold gloves, etc.
Clemens is similar, but not on the same level. He had multiple Cy Youngs and an MVP (didn't deserve that one).
The one guy who I think should not be in is A-Rod. The reason why is there are some reports that have him using as early as HS. Most have him starting no later than his start in Texas. So, most of his career had been tainted by PED use, making it impossible to judge his greatness.
But, in contrast, a guy like Ortiz doesn't even sniff 500 HRs without using. McGwire was a prolific HR hitter out of the gate. But, he likely would have played about 5 years less without using. That is where his using had the biggest impact. Sosa also was nowhere near the power hitter he was once he started using.
Quote:
Stan, again then it's stupid. Character? If character was a factor in all sports, LT sure as hell isn't in Canton. This is what these dudes did on the field, diamond, court, ring, etc.
Nope. Them's the rules. Check this out:
Quote:
Schilling has been a lightning rod across his time on the Hall of Fame ballot for his alt-right conservative views; in 2016, for instance, he posted a picture to his Twitter account of someone wearing a T-shirt that read: “Rope. Tree. Journalist. Some assembly required.” Schilling added the comment “OK, so much awesome here…” That didn’t exactly endear himself to the writers who would be voting for him.
Words matter. He's NEVER getting in and good for that.
Sure is easy to tell you’ live in LA. Preachy, judgemental , sanctimonious fraud that has no problems calling out others for lacking character while being complete disgraces to society while they think nobody is watching. You’ve been hanging out in Hollywood too much, Stan. Scum of the earth.
Quote:
In comment 15135242 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
Stan, again then it's stupid. Character? If character was a factor in all sports, LT sure as hell isn't in Canton. This is what these dudes did on the field, diamond, court, ring, etc.
Nope. Them's the rules. Check this out:
Quote:
Schilling has been a lightning rod across his time on the Hall of Fame ballot for his alt-right conservative views; in 2016, for instance, he posted a picture to his Twitter account of someone wearing a T-shirt that read: “Rope. Tree. Journalist. Some assembly required.” Schilling added the comment “OK, so much awesome here…” That didn’t exactly endear himself to the writers who would be voting for him.
Words matter. He's NEVER getting in and good for that.
Sure is easy to tell you’ live in LA. Preachy, judgemental , sanctimonious fraud that has no problems calling out others for lacking character while being complete disgraces to society while they think nobody is watching. You’ve been hanging out in Hollywood too much, Stan. Scum of the earth.
Pot, meet kettle
Quote:
In comment 15135242 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
Stan, again then it's stupid. Character? If character was a factor in all sports, LT sure as hell isn't in Canton. This is what these dudes did on the field, diamond, court, ring, etc.
Nope. Them's the rules. Check this out:
Quote:
Schilling has been a lightning rod across his time on the Hall of Fame ballot for his alt-right conservative views; in 2016, for instance, he posted a picture to his Twitter account of someone wearing a T-shirt that read: “Rope. Tree. Journalist. Some assembly required.” Schilling added the comment “OK, so much awesome here…” That didn’t exactly endear himself to the writers who would be voting for him.
Words matter. He's NEVER getting in and good for that.
Sure is easy to tell you’ live in LA. Preachy, judgemental , sanctimonious fraud that has no problems calling out others for lacking character while being complete disgraces to society while they think nobody is watching. You’ve been hanging out in Hollywood too much, Stan. Scum of the earth.
I think you could disagree with this gentleman without dissing Los Angeles and making it personal. LA is a great American city. Of course I like New York ( ;) ) more but LA is fantastic, and it has amazing weather. I don't know why you have to go out of your way to bash a whole city.
By contrast, Andy Pettitte has 40 more wins and a higher win percentage, a very good post season performer and is still considered a just miss by most.
Bottom line, I would have no problem with Schilling getting in (even though I can't stand him), but I'm not enraged that he isn't either.
Why character clause is enforced - ( New Window )
Brace yourself, because there's no if about it.
That said, I can't get worked up about it that he hasn't gotten in, and probably won't (at least on the writers' ballot). The stuff he's said goes way beyond being political to being offensive and mocking victimized people. That shouldn't keep him out of the HOF, but if he gets punished for being a mean spirited ahole, so be it.
Curt Schilling in letter to the Hall of Fame: "I will not participate in the final year of voting. I am requesting to be removed from the ballot. I’ll defer to the veterans committee and men whose opinions actually matter and who are in a position to actually judge a player.''