Ortiz was considered one of the most well liked players in the league and does a ton for his communities (in the DR and locally) so I guess his character gets him in according to Stan! Oh and A-Rod is a known douche so he's out according to Stan. 🤣🤣🤣.
@BNightengale
Curt Schilling in letter to the Hall of Fame: "I will not participate in the final year of voting. I am requesting to be removed from the ballot. I’ll defer to the veterans committee and men whose opinions actually matter and who are in a position to actually judge a player.''
No shit. Point is there are people in sports HOF that have done far shittier things before entering the HOF, and far shittier things after. It’s a sports HOF, not heaven
I think you need to take a deeper dive into Schilling's numbers. His post-season record is second to nobody and is arguably the best big game pitcher ever.
I like him as a pitcher. I wanted the Yankees to get him before he went to Zona. I don't like his public persona, but I'd vote him in, probably. But he can't carry Clemens' jock strap. Clemens belongs alongside Walter Johnson, Grover Cleveland, Bob Feller, Tom Seaver, Lefty Grove. Schilling is not in that class. Not ever.
I'm not putting CS in the class of pitchers you listed. They are the elite.
But Schilling was a very, very good regular season pitcher and was 11-2 in the post-season. And he was 3-0 in elimination games with an era below 1.50.
That sounds more like the argument that got Jack Morris into the HOF- probably the worst decision among modern SP.
Shilling had a relatively short period of sustained brilliance, about 8 years between the age of 29 and 37. He had some ok to good seasons outside of that, but that the bulk of his HOF case was made in those 8 years.
HOF voters have shied away from short periods of excellence- see Don Mattingly for example. That is why Shillings case is weaker. Yes, in that 8 year period, he was as good as anyone in the game- but it really was 8 years of excellence, not 15 or 20.
That’s why even when we ignore the character clause, his case is not as strong as first appears.
Compare Shilling’s period of excellence with teammate Randy Johnson. Johnson also had a rough start to his career, but put up about 12 years of excellence with several other ok to good seasons. Roger Clemens is also a contemporary and put up many more years of excellence.
Look at Andy Pettitte as well. People forget that Pettitte won 19 post season games- he also won more games than Shilling- but didn’t have the big K totals. He didn’t get in.
Looking at Schilling on performance alone is not a clear cut case. The fact that Clemens is in the same class makes it harder to make that case.
@BNightengale
Curt Schilling in letter to the Hall of Fame: "I will not participate in the final year of voting. I am requesting to be removed from the ballot. I’ll defer to the veterans committee and men whose opinions actually matter and who are in a position to actually judge a player.''
@BNightengale
Curt Schilling in letter to the Hall of Fame: "I will not participate in the final year of voting. I am requesting to be removed from the ballot. I’ll defer to the veterans committee and men whose opinions actually matter and who are in a position to actually judge a player.''
LOL at Schilling's response.
Maybe he deserves to get in, but this type of whinny, emotional reaction makes me happy that he didn't make it in.
Really? I remember reading somewhere the jury found him innocent. I could be wrong...
A jury did not find him innocent. A jury found him not guilty. A civil jury also found him liable by a preponderance of the evidence, and $33.5 million in damages were awarded
@BNightengale
Curt Schilling in letter to the Hall of Fame: "I will not participate in the final year of voting. I am requesting to be removed from the ballot. I’ll defer to the veterans committee and men whose opinions actually matter and who are in a position to actually judge a player.''
LOL at Schilling's response.
Maybe he deserves to get in, but this type of whinny, emotional reaction makes me happy that he didn't make it in.
Stan, again then it's stupid. Character? If character was a factor in all sports, LT sure as hell isn't in Canton. This is what these dudes did on the field, diamond, court, ring, etc.
Nope. Them's the rules. Check this out:
Quote:
Schilling has been a lightning rod across his time on the Hall of Fame ballot for his alt-right conservative views; in 2016, for instance, he posted a picture to his Twitter account of someone wearing a T-shirt that read: “Rope. Tree. Journalist. Some assembly required.” Schilling added the comment “OK, so much awesome here…” That didn’t exactly endear himself to the writers who would be voting for him.
Words matter. He's NEVER getting in and good for that.
The problem is, Schilling is just as right as he is wrong. Sanctimonious is a perfect word for these scumbags. Oooo, you voted for and supported X. But I the intelligent sensitive(lying sack of shit reporter) voted and support Y, so I won't vote you in.
They should have their cards taken away. If they want to keep Clemens and Bonds out for "cheating" through rampant steroids use, that is one thing. Keeping someone out because you disagree politically is absolutely wrong and should be met with immediate and vociferous rebuke..
My opinion is they should all be in. Vast numbers of players were using, they just happened to be the standouts because of their stature.
Stan, again then it's stupid. Character? If character was a factor in all sports, LT sure as hell isn't in Canton. This is what these dudes did on the field, diamond, court, ring, etc.
Nope. Them's the rules. Check this out:
Quote:
Schilling has been a lightning rod across his time on the Hall of Fame ballot for his alt-right conservative views; in 2016, for instance, he posted a picture to his Twitter account of someone wearing a T-shirt that read: “Rope. Tree. Journalist. Some assembly required.” Schilling added the comment “OK, so much awesome here…” That didn’t exactly endear himself to the writers who would be voting for him.
Words matter. He's NEVER getting in and good for that.
The problem is, Schilling is just as right as he is wrong. Sanctimonious is a perfect word for these scumbags. Oooo, you voted for and supported X. But I the intelligent sensitive(lying sack of shit reporter) voted and support Y, so I won't vote you in.
They should have their cards taken away. If they want to keep Clemens and Bonds out for "cheating" through rampant steroids use, that is one thing. Keeping someone out because you disagree politically is absolutely wrong and should be met with immediate and vociferous rebuke..
My opinion is they should all be in. Vast numbers of players were using, they just happened to be the standouts because of their stature.
What cheating have Bonds and Clemens been caught in? Prevailing wisdom is they both used. But, neither failed a drug test.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: OJ got into the HOF in the '80s.
Really? I remember reading somewhere the jury found him innocent. I could be wrong...
When people think you're a fool, it's generally a poor tactic to prove them right.
So in this country you're guilty if a jury finds you innocent.
Got it!
No jury found him innocent. Not guilty does not equate to innocence. It just means the jury didn’t find you guilty beyond a reasonable doubt
Correct. This gets way off topic, but that is something often misunderstood and misused, similar to free speech. This is one where we basically all are very confident he did it. But the police and prosecution bungled this case so badly, the correct verdict was actually rendered. They didn't prove it.
Wins aside, I think he's clearly a superior pitcher to Pettitte - significantly better ERA, WHIP, K's. It's not that close. I think he compares will with recent guys like Moose and Glavine, and the post-season performances are really big.
That said, I can't get worked up about it that he hasn't gotten in, and probably won't (at least on the writers' ballot). The stuff he's said goes way beyond being political to being offensive and mocking victimized people. That shouldn't keep him out of the HOF, but if he gets punished for being a mean spirited ahole, so be it.
I don't disagree with you. Mussina was the next guy I would have used, but went with Pettitte as another guy not in.
Really? I remember reading somewhere the jury found him innocent. I could be wrong...
When people think you're a fool, it's generally a poor tactic to prove them right.
So in this country you're guilty if a jury finds you innocent.
Got it!
You are laughably stupid. Shriner's should have a fundraiser to fix you like they do for the disabled kids. Utterly worthless when you post any thought at all.
Which used to be a fun listen with Don and Mike making fun of each other, really made a mistake of bringing on Peter Rosenberg. The show is an annoying caricature of its prior self. Rosenberg politicized Schilling not getting voted in for his political beliefs (Schilling is an outspoken conservative and was a Trump supporter). Basically Rosenberg said, "maybe if you didnt feel this way about a certain president and defended the Capitol protest, you would get voted in" Not trying to make it political, but a media voice claiming your career achievements can be made possible by adopting certain beliefs is a horrendpus look no matter where you stand. Him and his stupid, relentless wrestling plugs, horribly loudness about hip hop and the fact that most hip hop figures hate him, he is a mistake for that show.
@BNightengale
Curt Schilling in letter to the Hall of Fame: "I will not participate in the final year of voting. I am requesting to be removed from the ballot. I’ll defer to the veterans committee and men whose opinions actually matter and who are in a position to actually judge a player.''
LOL at Schilling's response.
Maybe he deserves to get in, but this type of whinny, emotional reaction makes me happy that he didn't make it in.
Put some more ketchup on that sock Kurt! ;>)
You felt the same about Harry Carson I assume... Carson Tells Hall, Thanks but No Thanks - ( New Window )
I love Harry, but yes I feel EXACTLY the same about anyone who sends a letter to the HOF that essentially states, "I no longer wish to be considered for the HOF because I didn't get in". I think it's a foolish, emotional reaction that's best shared on Twitter or in the YouTube comments section.
@BNightengale
Curt Schilling in letter to the Hall of Fame: "I will not participate in the final year of voting. I am requesting to be removed from the ballot. I’ll defer to the veterans committee and men whose opinions actually matter and who are in a position to actually judge a player.''
LOL at Schilling's response.
Maybe he deserves to get in, but this type of whinny, emotional reaction makes me happy that he didn't make it in.
Put some more ketchup on that sock Kurt! ;>)
You felt the same about Harry Carson I assume... Carson Tells Hall, Thanks but No Thanks - ( New Window )
I love Harry, but yes I feel EXACTLY the same about anyone who sends a letter to the HOF that essentially states, "I no longer wish to be considered for the HOF because I didn't get in". I think it's a foolish, emotional reaction that's best shared on Twitter or in the YouTube comments section.
I too, echo this. The Hall is an honor, not metric achieved.
is not a clear cut HOFer. Maybe he belongs. Clemens is arguably the greatest pitcher of all time. Certainly top-5. He is so much greater than Schilling it's an embarrassment to compare them.
Likewise, Bonds is arguably the greatest hitter of all time.
Couldn’t agree more. Since when does schilling have to get in so soon? He’s a borderline HOFer. He can wait. Clemens and bonds completely dominated the sport before the steroid shit even surfaced. Roger Clemens? Barry Bonds? No one was better. They should have been in years ago. Schilling can fucking wait if a guy like Mussina has to wait. And he’s an asshole to boot.
how arguably the greatest defensive outfielder in baseball history, and thus one of the greatest defensive players in history-- who ALSO hit 434 HRs doesn't make the Hall of Fame.
I still don’t understand how Andruw Jones doesn’t get more support for the HOF. Yeah, his career ended pretty quickly into his 30s but as Paul states he was almost without peer as an OF, in addition to 434 HRs.
how arguably the greatest defensive outfielder in baseball history, and thus one of the greatest defensive players in history-- who ALSO hit 434 HRs doesn't make the Hall of Fame.
I still don’t understand how Andruw Jones doesn’t get more support for the HOF. Yeah, his career ended pretty quickly into his 30s but as Paul states he was almost without peer as an OF, in addition to 434 HRs.
As a Mets fan, I agree 100%. Andruw Jones is a 100% a HOFer. That many HR from a Gold Glove CF is pretty rare
That sounds more like the argument that got Jack Morris into the HOF- probably the worst decision among modern SP.
Shilling had a relatively short period of sustained brilliance, about 8 years between the age of 29 and 37. He had some ok to good seasons outside of that, but that the bulk of his HOF case was made in those 8 years.
HOF voters have shied away from short periods of excellence- see Don Mattingly for example. That is why Shillings case is weaker. Yes, in that 8 year period, he was as good as anyone in the game- but it really was 8 years of excellence, not 15 or 20.
That’s why even when we ignore the character clause, his case is not as strong as first appears.
Compare Shilling’s period of excellence with teammate Randy Johnson. Johnson also had a rough start to his career, but put up about 12 years of excellence with several other ok to good seasons. Roger Clemens is also a contemporary and put up many more years of excellence.
Look at Andy Pettitte as well. People forget that Pettitte won 19 post season games- he also won more games than Shilling- but didn’t have the big K totals. He didn’t get in.
Looking at Schilling on performance alone is not a clear cut case. The fact that Clemens is in the same class makes it harder to make that case.
Pettitte can't touch Schilling in the post-season. Schilling was 11-2 with a 2.23 ERA. And when there was an elimination game, he was 5-0 with a 1.34 ERA.
You do realize Schilling is one of four pitchers in history with 300K+ strikeouts in three seasons?
He has 216 wins with an ERA of 3.46, mostly in the steroid era. And a .50 ERA better than Jack Morris. Who can't touch Schilling either.
Schilling led the league twice in wins with 22 and 21. And finished second on year with 23. In led the league in complete games four times. In led the league in strikeouts two times. He finished 2nd in the Cy Young three times. He won 15 or more eight times.
He's a multi World Series winner to boot...
He's better than Mike Musina, who recently got in.
based on his numbers. And character should not be a criteria - way too subjective. But read Schilling's comments today. Wholly apart from whatever his political beliefs are, the man appears to be a world-class asshole.
for the reasons stated. Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth, Mickey Mantle, many others - without getting into it, these were not choirboys. And then there's "greenies" - roids were not the first drug of choice in MLB. But Bonds and Clemens were already HOF quality before the roids era began.
Schilling can fucking wait if a guy like Mussina has to wait. And he’s an asshole to boot.
What are you talking about? Mussina is in, and Schilling has already waited several years longer than Mussina did.
Look, Schilling's career warrants the HOF. (And seriously people, stop with Pettitte, look beyond career W's and it's not a comparison). There's one reason he's not in, and it's not about playing baseball.
Bonds and Clemens were certainly HOF quality before the roid era,
but that doesn't mean they belong in. What if they got caught throwing games, do they still belong in because they were HOF quality before that misdeed? Voters aren't voting against them because they think they wouldn't have been good enough without roids. They are doing so because they believe that such a misdeed is itself disqualifying (just as throwing games would be). Whether they SHOULD be keeping them out on that basis is a debatable point.
is not a clear cut HOFer. Maybe he belongs. Clemens is arguably the greatest pitcher of all time. Certainly top-5. He is so much greater than Schilling it's an embarrassment to compare them.
Likewise, Bonds is arguably the greatest hitter of all time.
Couldn’t agree more. Since when does schilling have to get in so soon? He’s a borderline HOFer. He can wait. Clemens and bonds completely dominated the sport before the steroid shit even surfaced. Roger Clemens? Barry Bonds? No one was better. They should have been in years ago. Schilling can fucking wait if a guy like Mussina has to wait. And he’s an asshole to boot.
Schilling (like Bonds and Clemens) only have one more year of ballot eligibility. What is this "so soon" stuff?
I agree Bonds and Clemens both should be in, they're among the greatest to ever play the game. They have not been voted in to this point because of PEDs. IOW, they cheated. To argue to the voters who vote against them saying "they were HOFers before they cheated" is a specious argument. Neither has ever come clean about their usage.
I don't agree with the voters, but if (and it's a big if) the voters are consistent and don't vote for Ortiz, Arod, Manny, Sosa, McGwire, etc. then at least I feel like there is some tangible principle (I think the PED no voters are sanctimonious assholes, but it's at least a reason).
Schilling is completely different.
if you think his numbers qualify him, he's basically being kept out for being an asshole and/or having different political views than the voters. Completely different than Bonds and Clemens. If Schilling kept his mouth shut (like Mussina) he would have probably been voted in before Mussina - and that is bullshit IMO. the HOF voters should not be the arbiters of character in this manner.
for being assholes. Schilling isn’t the first or the last. How else does one explain all zero of Albert Belle’s MVP Awards?
Fair, but annual award votes are player vs player, so even though a voter may be biased against an asshole player (like Belle) the voter can rationalize it to get themselves to believe another player had a better year.
The HOF is not player vs player per se (unless the voter uses all 10 ballot votes).
I this case for Schilling it's simply I'm not voting for him because I don't like him. And I think that's bullshit.
And for the record, I don't care if Schilling ever gets in, I just hate the sanctimonious holier than thou asshole voters.
Maybe he'll be like Jim Rice, another player I read the voters didn't like, who got in I believe on his final ballot appearance. But I think next year the ballot gets crowded so it's a longshot.
The greatest football player ever IMO, but let’s face it. He’s kind of a piece of shit.
The Baseball Hall of Fame includes character as a factor, the Pro Football Hall of Fame doesn't. It's as simple as that. If OJ had been a baseball player I highly doubt he would be in.
is not a clear cut HOFer. Maybe he belongs. Clemens is arguably the greatest pitcher of all time. Certainly top-5. He is so much greater than Schilling it's an embarrassment to compare them.
Likewise, Bonds is arguably the greatest hitter of all time.
Couldn’t agree more. Since when does schilling have to get in so soon? He’s a borderline HOFer. He can wait. Clemens and bonds completely dominated the sport before the steroid shit even surfaced. Roger Clemens? Barry Bonds? No one was better. They should have been in years ago. Schilling can fucking wait if a guy like Mussina has to wait. And he’s an asshole to boot.
Schilling (like Bonds and Clemens) only have one more year of ballot eligibility. What is this "so soon" stuff?
I agree Bonds and Clemens both should be in, they're among the greatest to ever play the game. They have not been voted in to this point because of PEDs. IOW, they cheated. To argue to the voters who vote against them saying "they were HOFers before they cheated" is a specious argument. Neither has ever come clean about their usage.
I don't agree with the voters, but if (and it's a big if) the voters are consistent and don't vote for Ortiz, Arod, Manny, Sosa, McGwire, etc. then at least I feel like there is some tangible principle (I think the PED no voters are sanctimonious assholes, but it's at least a reason).
Schilling is completely different.
if you think his numbers qualify him, he's basically being kept out for being an asshole and/or having different political views than the voters. Completely different than Bonds and Clemens. If Schilling kept his mouth shut (like Mussina) he would have probably been voted in before Mussina - and that is bullshit IMO. the HOF voters should not be the arbiters of character in this manner.
I wouldn't agree with it, but you are right that if they are consistent, at least that is something. But, we all know Ortiz is getting in, which is where this becomes ridiculous. With Bonds and Clemens, they never failed a test. Ortiz did.
As for the argument that they were HoF before they used, I can understand where you are coming from. I say it only to distinguish them from players who were borderline or worse and them saw careers take off unnaturally for enough years to put them over the top.
But, like you say, if the voters will be consistent and not vote for anyone suspected of use, then that is one thing. But, where do you draw the line? Is everyone from that era under suspiscion? I have long said the only player who would shock me to learn they were using is Rivera. Everyone else wouldn't faze me. With no failed tests for Bonds and Clemens, though, how are they viewed worse than some who actually failed tests?
Schilling can fucking wait if a guy like Mussina has to wait. And he’s an asshole to boot.
What are you talking about? Mussina is in, and Schilling has already waited several years longer than Mussina did.
Look, Schilling's career warrants the HOF. (And seriously people, stop with Pettitte, look beyond career W's and it's not a comparison). There's one reason he's not in, and it's not about playing baseball.
Exactly, not to mention Schilling was better than Mussina.
Schilling can fucking wait if a guy like Mussina has to wait. And he’s an asshole to boot.
What are you talking about? Mussina is in, and Schilling has already waited several years longer than Mussina did.
Look, Schilling's career warrants the HOF. (And seriously people, stop with Pettitte, look beyond career W's and it's not a comparison). There's one reason he's not in, and it's not about playing baseball.
Exactly, not to mention Schilling was better than Mussina.
I don't think he was better. Mussina has 53 more wins (in 2 less years), higher winning percentage, higher WAR, multiple Gold Gloves,
Schilling can fucking wait if a guy like Mussina has to wait. And he’s an asshole to boot.
What are you talking about? Mussina is in, and Schilling has already waited several years longer than Mussina did.
Look, Schilling's career warrants the HOF. (And seriously people, stop with Pettitte, look beyond career W's and it's not a comparison). There's one reason he's not in, and it's not about playing baseball.
Exactly, not to mention Schilling was better than Mussina.
I don't think he was better. Mussina has 53 more wins (in 2 less years), higher winning percentage, higher WAR, multiple Gold Gloves,
The greatest football player ever IMO, but let’s face it. He’s kind of a piece of shit.
The Baseball Hall of Fame includes character as a factor, the Pro Football Hall of Fame doesn't. It's as simple as that. If OJ had been a baseball player I highly doubt he would be in.
I understand that. Doesn’t mean I have to agree with it. And doesn’t mean I agree that having different political opinions from journalists is poor character either
Anyone who doubts that we are now at a point where people are being censored or cancelled based on their political affiliations is living under a rock.
Character matters 😂😂😂😂
Curt Schilling in letter to the Hall of Fame: "I will not participate in the final year of voting. I am requesting to be removed from the ballot. I’ll defer to the veterans committee and men whose opinions actually matter and who are in a position to actually judge a player.''
Didn't Carson do something familiar with NFL?
No shit. Point is there are people in sports HOF that have done far shittier things before entering the HOF, and far shittier things after. It’s a sports HOF, not heaven
Quote:
I think you need to take a deeper dive into Schilling's numbers. His post-season record is second to nobody and is arguably the best big game pitcher ever.
I like him as a pitcher. I wanted the Yankees to get him before he went to Zona. I don't like his public persona, but I'd vote him in, probably. But he can't carry Clemens' jock strap. Clemens belongs alongside Walter Johnson, Grover Cleveland, Bob Feller, Tom Seaver, Lefty Grove. Schilling is not in that class. Not ever.
I'm not putting CS in the class of pitchers you listed. They are the elite.
But Schilling was a very, very good regular season pitcher and was 11-2 in the post-season. And he was 3-0 in elimination games with an era below 1.50.
That sounds more like the argument that got Jack Morris into the HOF- probably the worst decision among modern SP.
Shilling had a relatively short period of sustained brilliance, about 8 years between the age of 29 and 37. He had some ok to good seasons outside of that, but that the bulk of his HOF case was made in those 8 years.
HOF voters have shied away from short periods of excellence- see Don Mattingly for example. That is why Shillings case is weaker. Yes, in that 8 year period, he was as good as anyone in the game- but it really was 8 years of excellence, not 15 or 20.
That’s why even when we ignore the character clause, his case is not as strong as first appears.
Compare Shilling’s period of excellence with teammate Randy Johnson. Johnson also had a rough start to his career, but put up about 12 years of excellence with several other ok to good seasons. Roger Clemens is also a contemporary and put up many more years of excellence.
Look at Andy Pettitte as well. People forget that Pettitte won 19 post season games- he also won more games than Shilling- but didn’t have the big K totals. He didn’t get in.
Looking at Schilling on performance alone is not a clear cut case. The fact that Clemens is in the same class makes it harder to make that case.
Curt Schilling in letter to the Hall of Fame: "I will not participate in the final year of voting. I am requesting to be removed from the ballot. I’ll defer to the veterans committee and men whose opinions actually matter and who are in a position to actually judge a player.''
HAHAHA! Typical response. What a jerk.
Curt Schilling in letter to the Hall of Fame: "I will not participate in the final year of voting. I am requesting to be removed from the ballot. I’ll defer to the veterans committee and men whose opinions actually matter and who are in a position to actually judge a player.''
LOL at Schilling's response.
Maybe he deserves to get in, but this type of whinny, emotional reaction makes me happy that he didn't make it in.
Put some more ketchup on that sock Kurt! ;>)
Really? I remember reading somewhere the jury found him innocent. I could be wrong...
When people think you're a fool, it's generally a poor tactic to prove them right.
Quote:
Really? I remember reading somewhere the jury found him innocent. I could be wrong...
When people think you're a fool, it's generally a poor tactic to prove them right.
So in this country you're guilty if a jury finds you innocent.
Got it!
Quote:
He killed Nicole & Ron in '94.
Really? I remember reading somewhere the jury found him innocent. I could be wrong...
A jury did not find him innocent. A jury found him not guilty. A civil jury also found him liable by a preponderance of the evidence, and $33.5 million in damages were awarded
Quote:
In comment 15135312 Stan in LA said:
Quote:
Really? I remember reading somewhere the jury found him innocent. I could be wrong...
When people think you're a fool, it's generally a poor tactic to prove them right.
So in this country you're guilty if a jury finds you innocent.
Got it!
No jury found him innocent. Not guilty does not equate to innocence. It just means the jury didn’t find you guilty beyond a reasonable doubt
Quote:
@BNightengale
Curt Schilling in letter to the Hall of Fame: "I will not participate in the final year of voting. I am requesting to be removed from the ballot. I’ll defer to the veterans committee and men whose opinions actually matter and who are in a position to actually judge a player.''
LOL at Schilling's response.
Maybe he deserves to get in, but this type of whinny, emotional reaction makes me happy that he didn't make it in.
Put some more ketchup on that sock Kurt! ;>)
You felt the same about Harry Carson I assume...
Carson Tells Hall, Thanks but No Thanks - ( New Window )
Quote:
Stan, again then it's stupid. Character? If character was a factor in all sports, LT sure as hell isn't in Canton. This is what these dudes did on the field, diamond, court, ring, etc.
Nope. Them's the rules. Check this out:
Quote:
Schilling has been a lightning rod across his time on the Hall of Fame ballot for his alt-right conservative views; in 2016, for instance, he posted a picture to his Twitter account of someone wearing a T-shirt that read: “Rope. Tree. Journalist. Some assembly required.” Schilling added the comment “OK, so much awesome here…” That didn’t exactly endear himself to the writers who would be voting for him.
Words matter. He's NEVER getting in and good for that.
The problem is, Schilling is just as right as he is wrong. Sanctimonious is a perfect word for these scumbags. Oooo, you voted for and supported X. But I the intelligent sensitive(lying sack of shit reporter) voted and support Y, so I won't vote you in.
They should have their cards taken away. If they want to keep Clemens and Bonds out for "cheating" through rampant steroids use, that is one thing. Keeping someone out because you disagree politically is absolutely wrong and should be met with immediate and vociferous rebuke..
My opinion is they should all be in. Vast numbers of players were using, they just happened to be the standouts because of their stature.
Quote:
In comment 15135242 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
Stan, again then it's stupid. Character? If character was a factor in all sports, LT sure as hell isn't in Canton. This is what these dudes did on the field, diamond, court, ring, etc.
Nope. Them's the rules. Check this out:
Quote:
Schilling has been a lightning rod across his time on the Hall of Fame ballot for his alt-right conservative views; in 2016, for instance, he posted a picture to his Twitter account of someone wearing a T-shirt that read: “Rope. Tree. Journalist. Some assembly required.” Schilling added the comment “OK, so much awesome here…” That didn’t exactly endear himself to the writers who would be voting for him.
Words matter. He's NEVER getting in and good for that.
The problem is, Schilling is just as right as he is wrong. Sanctimonious is a perfect word for these scumbags. Oooo, you voted for and supported X. But I the intelligent sensitive(lying sack of shit reporter) voted and support Y, so I won't vote you in.
They should have their cards taken away. If they want to keep Clemens and Bonds out for "cheating" through rampant steroids use, that is one thing. Keeping someone out because you disagree politically is absolutely wrong and should be met with immediate and vociferous rebuke..
My opinion is they should all be in. Vast numbers of players were using, they just happened to be the standouts because of their stature.
Quote:
In comment 15135313 Mad Mike said:
Quote:
In comment 15135312 Stan in LA said:
Quote:
Really? I remember reading somewhere the jury found him innocent. I could be wrong...
When people think you're a fool, it's generally a poor tactic to prove them right.
So in this country you're guilty if a jury finds you innocent.
Got it!
No jury found him innocent. Not guilty does not equate to innocence. It just means the jury didn’t find you guilty beyond a reasonable doubt
Got it!
The Double-Down!
It's a bold strategy Cotton, let's see if it works out.
That said, I can't get worked up about it that he hasn't gotten in, and probably won't (at least on the writers' ballot). The stuff he's said goes way beyond being political to being offensive and mocking victimized people. That shouldn't keep him out of the HOF, but if he gets punished for being a mean spirited ahole, so be it.
Quote:
In comment 15135312 Stan in LA said:
Quote:
Really? I remember reading somewhere the jury found him innocent. I could be wrong...
When people think you're a fool, it's generally a poor tactic to prove them right.
So in this country you're guilty if a jury finds you innocent.
Got it!
You are laughably stupid. Shriner's should have a fundraiser to fix you like they do for the disabled kids. Utterly worthless when you post any thought at all.
Quote:
In comment 15135287 Ira said:
Quote:
@BNightengale
Curt Schilling in letter to the Hall of Fame: "I will not participate in the final year of voting. I am requesting to be removed from the ballot. I’ll defer to the veterans committee and men whose opinions actually matter and who are in a position to actually judge a player.''
LOL at Schilling's response.
Maybe he deserves to get in, but this type of whinny, emotional reaction makes me happy that he didn't make it in.
Put some more ketchup on that sock Kurt! ;>)
You felt the same about Harry Carson I assume... Carson Tells Hall, Thanks but No Thanks - ( New Window )
I love Harry, but yes I feel EXACTLY the same about anyone who sends a letter to the HOF that essentially states, "I no longer wish to be considered for the HOF because I didn't get in". I think it's a foolish, emotional reaction that's best shared on Twitter or in the YouTube comments section.
Quote:
In comment 15135310 Jim in Tampa said:
Quote:
In comment 15135287 Ira said:
Quote:
@BNightengale
Curt Schilling in letter to the Hall of Fame: "I will not participate in the final year of voting. I am requesting to be removed from the ballot. I’ll defer to the veterans committee and men whose opinions actually matter and who are in a position to actually judge a player.''
LOL at Schilling's response.
Maybe he deserves to get in, but this type of whinny, emotional reaction makes me happy that he didn't make it in.
Put some more ketchup on that sock Kurt! ;>)
You felt the same about Harry Carson I assume... Carson Tells Hall, Thanks but No Thanks - ( New Window )
I love Harry, but yes I feel EXACTLY the same about anyone who sends a letter to the HOF that essentially states, "I no longer wish to be considered for the HOF because I didn't get in". I think it's a foolish, emotional reaction that's best shared on Twitter or in the YouTube comments section.
I too, echo this. The Hall is an honor, not metric achieved.
Likewise, Bonds is arguably the greatest hitter of all time.
Couldn’t agree more. Since when does schilling have to get in so soon? He’s a borderline HOFer. He can wait. Clemens and bonds completely dominated the sport before the steroid shit even surfaced. Roger Clemens? Barry Bonds? No one was better. They should have been in years ago. Schilling can fucking wait if a guy like Mussina has to wait. And he’s an asshole to boot.
I still don’t understand how Andruw Jones doesn’t get more support for the HOF. Yeah, his career ended pretty quickly into his 30s but as Paul states he was almost without peer as an OF, in addition to 434 HRs.
Quote:
how arguably the greatest defensive outfielder in baseball history, and thus one of the greatest defensive players in history-- who ALSO hit 434 HRs doesn't make the Hall of Fame.
I still don’t understand how Andruw Jones doesn’t get more support for the HOF. Yeah, his career ended pretty quickly into his 30s but as Paul states he was almost without peer as an OF, in addition to 434 HRs.
As a Mets fan, I agree 100%. Andruw Jones is a 100% a HOFer. That many HR from a Gold Glove CF is pretty rare
As are 99 % of Stan's posts
That sounds more like the argument that got Jack Morris into the HOF- probably the worst decision among modern SP.
Shilling had a relatively short period of sustained brilliance, about 8 years between the age of 29 and 37. He had some ok to good seasons outside of that, but that the bulk of his HOF case was made in those 8 years.
HOF voters have shied away from short periods of excellence- see Don Mattingly for example. That is why Shillings case is weaker. Yes, in that 8 year period, he was as good as anyone in the game- but it really was 8 years of excellence, not 15 or 20.
That’s why even when we ignore the character clause, his case is not as strong as first appears.
Compare Shilling’s period of excellence with teammate Randy Johnson. Johnson also had a rough start to his career, but put up about 12 years of excellence with several other ok to good seasons. Roger Clemens is also a contemporary and put up many more years of excellence.
Look at Andy Pettitte as well. People forget that Pettitte won 19 post season games- he also won more games than Shilling- but didn’t have the big K totals. He didn’t get in.
Looking at Schilling on performance alone is not a clear cut case. The fact that Clemens is in the same class makes it harder to make that case.
Pettitte can't touch Schilling in the post-season. Schilling was 11-2 with a 2.23 ERA. And when there was an elimination game, he was 5-0 with a 1.34 ERA.
You do realize Schilling is one of four pitchers in history with 300K+ strikeouts in three seasons?
He has 216 wins with an ERA of 3.46, mostly in the steroid era. And a .50 ERA better than Jack Morris. Who can't touch Schilling either.
Schilling led the league twice in wins with 22 and 21. And finished second on year with 23. In led the league in complete games four times. In led the league in strikeouts two times. He finished 2nd in the Cy Young three times. He won 15 or more eight times.
He's a multi World Series winner to boot...
He's better than Mike Musina, who recently got in.
It's embarrassing...
What are you talking about? Mussina is in, and Schilling has already waited several years longer than Mussina did.
Look, Schilling's career warrants the HOF. (And seriously people, stop with Pettitte, look beyond career W's and it's not a comparison). There's one reason he's not in, and it's not about playing baseball.
Quote:
is not a clear cut HOFer. Maybe he belongs. Clemens is arguably the greatest pitcher of all time. Certainly top-5. He is so much greater than Schilling it's an embarrassment to compare them.
Likewise, Bonds is arguably the greatest hitter of all time.
Couldn’t agree more. Since when does schilling have to get in so soon? He’s a borderline HOFer. He can wait. Clemens and bonds completely dominated the sport before the steroid shit even surfaced. Roger Clemens? Barry Bonds? No one was better. They should have been in years ago. Schilling can fucking wait if a guy like Mussina has to wait. And he’s an asshole to boot.
Schilling (like Bonds and Clemens) only have one more year of ballot eligibility. What is this "so soon" stuff?
I agree Bonds and Clemens both should be in, they're among the greatest to ever play the game. They have not been voted in to this point because of PEDs. IOW, they cheated. To argue to the voters who vote against them saying "they were HOFers before they cheated" is a specious argument. Neither has ever come clean about their usage.
I don't agree with the voters, but if (and it's a big if) the voters are consistent and don't vote for Ortiz, Arod, Manny, Sosa, McGwire, etc. then at least I feel like there is some tangible principle (I think the PED no voters are sanctimonious assholes, but it's at least a reason).
Schilling is completely different.
if you think his numbers qualify him, he's basically being kept out for being an asshole and/or having different political views than the voters. Completely different than Bonds and Clemens. If Schilling kept his mouth shut (like Mussina) he would have probably been voted in before Mussina - and that is bullshit IMO. the HOF voters should not be the arbiters of character in this manner.
Fair, but annual award votes are player vs player, so even though a voter may be biased against an asshole player (like Belle) the voter can rationalize it to get themselves to believe another player had a better year.
The HOF is not player vs player per se (unless the voter uses all 10 ballot votes).
I this case for Schilling it's simply I'm not voting for him because I don't like him. And I think that's bullshit.
And for the record, I don't care if Schilling ever gets in, I just hate the sanctimonious holier than thou asshole voters.
Maybe he'll be like Jim Rice, another player I read the voters didn't like, who got in I believe on his final ballot appearance. But I think next year the ballot gets crowded so it's a longshot.
The Baseball Hall of Fame includes character as a factor, the Pro Football Hall of Fame doesn't. It's as simple as that. If OJ had been a baseball player I highly doubt he would be in.
Quote:
In comment 15135233 Producer said:
Quote:
is not a clear cut HOFer. Maybe he belongs. Clemens is arguably the greatest pitcher of all time. Certainly top-5. He is so much greater than Schilling it's an embarrassment to compare them.
Likewise, Bonds is arguably the greatest hitter of all time.
Couldn’t agree more. Since when does schilling have to get in so soon? He’s a borderline HOFer. He can wait. Clemens and bonds completely dominated the sport before the steroid shit even surfaced. Roger Clemens? Barry Bonds? No one was better. They should have been in years ago. Schilling can fucking wait if a guy like Mussina has to wait. And he’s an asshole to boot.
Schilling (like Bonds and Clemens) only have one more year of ballot eligibility. What is this "so soon" stuff?
I agree Bonds and Clemens both should be in, they're among the greatest to ever play the game. They have not been voted in to this point because of PEDs. IOW, they cheated. To argue to the voters who vote against them saying "they were HOFers before they cheated" is a specious argument. Neither has ever come clean about their usage.
I don't agree with the voters, but if (and it's a big if) the voters are consistent and don't vote for Ortiz, Arod, Manny, Sosa, McGwire, etc. then at least I feel like there is some tangible principle (I think the PED no voters are sanctimonious assholes, but it's at least a reason).
Schilling is completely different.
if you think his numbers qualify him, he's basically being kept out for being an asshole and/or having different political views than the voters. Completely different than Bonds and Clemens. If Schilling kept his mouth shut (like Mussina) he would have probably been voted in before Mussina - and that is bullshit IMO. the HOF voters should not be the arbiters of character in this manner.
As for the argument that they were HoF before they used, I can understand where you are coming from. I say it only to distinguish them from players who were borderline or worse and them saw careers take off unnaturally for enough years to put them over the top.
But, like you say, if the voters will be consistent and not vote for anyone suspected of use, then that is one thing. But, where do you draw the line? Is everyone from that era under suspiscion? I have long said the only player who would shock me to learn they were using is Rivera. Everyone else wouldn't faze me. With no failed tests for Bonds and Clemens, though, how are they viewed worse than some who actually failed tests?
Quote:
Schilling can fucking wait if a guy like Mussina has to wait. And he’s an asshole to boot.
What are you talking about? Mussina is in, and Schilling has already waited several years longer than Mussina did.
Look, Schilling's career warrants the HOF. (And seriously people, stop with Pettitte, look beyond career W's and it's not a comparison). There's one reason he's not in, and it's not about playing baseball.
Exactly, not to mention Schilling was better than Mussina.
Quote:
In comment 15135357 djm said:
Quote:
Schilling can fucking wait if a guy like Mussina has to wait. And he’s an asshole to boot.
What are you talking about? Mussina is in, and Schilling has already waited several years longer than Mussina did.
Look, Schilling's career warrants the HOF. (And seriously people, stop with Pettitte, look beyond career W's and it's not a comparison). There's one reason he's not in, and it's not about playing baseball.
Exactly, not to mention Schilling was better than Mussina.
Quote:
In comment 15135426 Mad Mike said:
Quote:
In comment 15135357 djm said:
Quote:
Schilling can fucking wait if a guy like Mussina has to wait. And he’s an asshole to boot.
What are you talking about? Mussina is in, and Schilling has already waited several years longer than Mussina did.
Look, Schilling's career warrants the HOF. (And seriously people, stop with Pettitte, look beyond career W's and it's not a comparison). There's one reason he's not in, and it's not about playing baseball.
Exactly, not to mention Schilling was better than Mussina.
I don't think he was better. Mussina has 53 more wins (in 2 less years), higher winning percentage, higher WAR, multiple Gold Gloves,
Quote:
The greatest football player ever IMO, but let’s face it. He’s kind of a piece of shit.
The Baseball Hall of Fame includes character as a factor, the Pro Football Hall of Fame doesn't. It's as simple as that. If OJ had been a baseball player I highly doubt he would be in.
I understand that. Doesn’t mean I have to agree with it. And doesn’t mean I agree that having different political opinions from journalists is poor character either
Anyone who doubts that we are now at a point where people are being censored or cancelled based on their political affiliations is living under a rock.