a baseball HOF without Bonds and Clemens is a total joke.
They both damaged the reputation of the game. Sucks, but they used performance enhancing drugs which is cheating. The sad part is that both had HOF talent without the enhancers.
RE: Honestly it's a joke without Schilling as well
a baseball HOF without Bonds and Clemens is a total joke.
They both damaged the reputation of the game. Sucks, but they used performance enhancing drugs which is cheating. The sad part is that both had HOF talent without the enhancers.
The problem with going down that rabbit hole is the selective outrage at who cheated.
There are many HoF'ers who used enhancements and steroids. The difference is that some of them are "good guys" or they admitted fault.
Another puzzling part about Papi. He's not been contrite because he's never admitted to cheating.
a baseball HOF without Bonds and Clemens is a total joke.
They both damaged the reputation of the game. Sucks, but they used performance enhancing drugs which is cheating. The sad part is that both had HOF talent without the enhancers.
The problem with going down that rabbit hole is the selective outrage at who cheated.
There are many HoF'ers who used enhancements and steroids. The difference is that some of them are "good guys" or they admitted fault.
Another puzzling part about Papi. He's not been contrite because he's never admitted to cheating.
These points are exactly true. Either nobody is in, or every one is in. And who one voted for is never to be considered because that crap works both ways.
for comparison, Jeter was at 71.3 and was 1 vote short of unanimous. Rivera was unanimous at 56.3
Harold Baines is in the HOF. His WAR is 38.7. Jack Morris is in the HOF his WAR is 43.5. Schilling's is almost the equivalent of a HOF starting pitcher and a HOF hitter combined. Such an absolute joke.
a baseball HOF without Bonds and Clemens is a total joke.
They both damaged the reputation of the game. Sucks, but they used performance enhancing drugs which is cheating. The sad part is that both had HOF talent without the enhancers.
The problem with going down that rabbit hole is the selective outrage at who cheated.
There are many HoF'ers who used enhancements and steroids. The difference is that some of them are "good guys" or they admitted fault.
Another puzzling part about Papi. He's not been contrite because he's never admitted to cheating.
Harold Baines is in the HOF. His WAR is 38.7. Jack Morris is in the HOF his WAR is 43.5. Schilling's is almost the equivalent of a HOF starting pitcher and a HOF hitter combined. Such an absolute joke.
Well, those guys are poor comparisons because they (rightly in my opinion) weren't considered HOF worthy by the writers. Schilling belongs in, but it's not because the veterans committee made mistakes on some inferior players.
massive segregationist and piece of shit. Oh, the irony.
That said, this isn't cancel culture for Schilling's political beliefs. It's members of the media not wanting to give an honor or platform to speak to a guy who has advocated for killing members of the media as well as other abominable things.
Should the voters hold that against Schilling? I don't think so because I view the voters as fiduciaries, or custodians, for the sport itself and for the fans. Plus, the sport has never cared about character issues or cheating for that matter when it was good for the bottom line. There are racists, domestic abusers, drunk drivers, cheaters, etc. in the Hall.
But I find Schilling so abhorrent and deserving of bad karma, that I'm not losing sleep of this situation.
I'm more concerned about the other deserving players kept out due to poor evaluation by the voters (Andruw Jones, Scott Rolen, Chase Utley when he's eventually up and denied, etc.)
How many years has schilling been on the ballot? 7?
Harold Baines is in the HOF. His WAR is 38.7. Jack Morris is in the HOF his WAR is 43.5. Schilling's is almost the equivalent of a HOF starting pitcher and a HOF hitter combined. Such an absolute joke.
Well, those guys are poor comparisons because they (rightly in my opinion) weren't considered HOF worthy by the writers. Schilling belongs in, but it's not because the veterans committee made mistakes on some inferior players.
I understand that. They are still in the HOF. I picked those two because they are well known, and shows that Schilling's WAR is the equivalent of two HOFers combined, no matter how they got in. Schilling is a no doubt HOFer.
is a joke and I do hate the double standard with which he's considered, but the "F-Bomb" I have no issue with.
Yes, it was on live TV, uncensored, and with kids watching, but maybe it's a Boston thing why I don't hate he said it (and I hate all Boston sports teams except the Celtics), but I had family run that marathon, many watching my cousin finish directly in the spot that was bombed (luckily for us he finished well before the bomb). So it's personal for me.
Anyway, Ortiz spoke from the heart before they took the field for the first home game after Patriots Day, uncensored, and said "...this is our fucking city. Nobody is going to dictate our freedom. We will not be intimidated"
and it was the only time I liked him.
So, hate Ortiz all you want, hate the double standard, don't hate the F-bomb or that he wasn't chastised for using it, it was the perfect words at the right time.
IMO.
and he shouldn't be in the HOF, definitely not before Arod, Clemens, Bonds, etc.
RE: the character clause was put in by Kennesaw Mountain Landis
massive segregationist and piece of shit. Oh, the irony.
That said, this isn't cancel culture for Schilling's political beliefs. It's members of the media not wanting to give an honor or platform to speak to a guy who has advocated for killing members of the media as well as other abominable things.
Should the voters hold that against Schilling? I don't think so because I view the voters as fiduciaries, or custodians, for the sport itself and for the fans. Plus, the sport has never cared about character issues or cheating for that matter when it was good for the bottom line. There are racists, domestic abusers, drunk drivers, cheaters, etc. in the Hall.
But I find Schilling so abhorrent and deserving of bad karma, that I'm not losing sleep of this situation.
I'm more concerned about the other deserving players kept out due to poor evaluation by the voters (Andruw Jones, Scott Rolen, Chase Utley when he's eventually up and denied, etc.)
Jeff Kent belongs
Isn't there precedent for unlikeable people in the HOF?
Schilling can fucking wait if a guy like Mussina has to wait. And he’s an asshole to boot.
What are you talking about? Mussina is in, and Schilling has already waited several years longer than Mussina did.
Look, Schilling's career warrants the HOF. (And seriously people, stop with Pettitte, look beyond career W's and it's not a comparison). There's one reason he's not in, and it's not about playing baseball.
Exactly, not to mention Schilling was better than Mussina.
I don't think he was better. Mussina has 53 more wins (in 2 less years), higher winning percentage, higher WAR, multiple Gold Gloves,
I don't put a lot of emphasis on wins. Schilling came into the league as a relief guy/set-up for his first 3-4 years, so that probably impacts his win total. The WARs are close. But Mussina is slightly better.
But Schilling had more Ks, better ERA, better WHiP, and was just one of the greatest pitchers ever in the playoffs. Mussina was okay, but not in that stratosphere. And it's not like Schilling has a small playoff sample. It's robust with some of the best outings ever. With awards to compliment it - World Series MVP.
If I need a big game to win, I'm not choosing Mussina. I think most fans of baseball are going Schilling.
I get all the steriod arguments, but IMO Clemens and Bonds
have to be in. Its a sham if they are not, even put them in with a footnote if you have to, but there are arguably two of the greatest of all time. Plus I do subscribe to the theory that a lot of players were doing it, so it was a generational baseball thing not a specific player thing.
Schilling I'm less enthused about.
RE: the character clause was put in by Kennesaw Mountain Landis
massive segregationist and piece of shit. Oh, the irony.
That said, this isn't cancel culture for Schilling's political beliefs. It's members of the media not wanting to give an honor or platform to speak to a guy who has advocated for killing members of the media as well as other abominable things.
Should the voters hold that against Schilling? I don't think so because I view the voters as fiduciaries, or custodians, for the sport itself and for the fans. Plus, the sport has never cared about character issues or cheating for that matter when it was good for the bottom line. There are racists, domestic abusers, drunk drivers, cheaters, etc. in the Hall.
But I find Schilling so abhorrent and deserving of bad karma, that I'm not losing sleep of this situation.
I'm more concerned about the other deserving players kept out due to poor evaluation by the voters (Andruw Jones, Scott Rolen, Chase Utley when he's eventually up and denied, etc.)
All three of these players are hard evaluations because they had excellent primes, but huge dropoffs at some point in their 30s.
RE: RE: the character clause was put in by Kennesaw Mountain Landis
massive segregationist and piece of shit. Oh, the irony.
That said, this isn't cancel culture for Schilling's political beliefs. It's members of the media not wanting to give an honor or platform to speak to a guy who has advocated for killing members of the media as well as other abominable things.
Should the voters hold that against Schilling? I don't think so because I view the voters as fiduciaries, or custodians, for the sport itself and for the fans. Plus, the sport has never cared about character issues or cheating for that matter when it was good for the bottom line. There are racists, domestic abusers, drunk drivers, cheaters, etc. in the Hall.
But I find Schilling so abhorrent and deserving of bad karma, that I'm not losing sleep of this situation.
I'm more concerned about the other deserving players kept out due to poor evaluation by the voters (Andruw Jones, Scott Rolen, Chase Utley when he's eventually up and denied, etc.)
Jeff Kent belongs
Ehh, I lean no on Kent. I think Chase Utley was significantly better and I already see the writing on the wall for Utley. And as far as infielders go, Scott Rolen far more deserving as well.
RE: Isn't there precedent for unlikeable people in the HOF?
1. Stats (like it or not it's how you're measured vs your contemporaries
2. Accolades (again like it or not it's how you're measured vs your contemporaries)
3. Rings
If you don't have one of the three, the other two better be overwhelming
Belle has stats and accolades, no rings, and his stats aren't better enough vs his contemporaries (Juan Gonzalez for example), so to overcome his unlikability he needs to be overwhelming.
Schilling is, Belle is not. IMO. If Belle got in I would say it's a travesty, but he falls short in my vote.
1. Stats (like it or not it's how you're measured vs your contemporaries
2. Accolades (again like it or not it's how you're measured vs your contemporaries)
3. Rings
If you don't have one of the three, the other two better be overwhelming
Belle has stats and accolades, no rings, and his stats aren't better enough vs his contemporaries (Juan Gonzalez for example), so to overcome his unlikability he needs to be overwhelming.
Schilling is, Belle is not. IMO. If Belle got in I would say it's a travesty, but he falls short in my vote.
pjcas - Outside his post season, nothing is that exemplary. 216 wins in 20 seasons is not special. Less than a 60% WP is not special. 0 Cy Youngs, 0 Gold Gloves. He was a very good, not great pitcher who had a couple of great seasons and had great post seasons.
based on his numbers. And character should not be a criteria - way too subjective. But read Schilling's comments today. Wholly apart from whatever his political beliefs are, the man appears to be a world-class asshole.
belongs in the HOF per the #'s then that's up to you.
I do.
My point was he should not be kept out because people don't like him.
to me he satisfies the three pillars I named:
He has the stats:
He led the league in wins multiple times
He led the league strikeouts multiple times, eclipsing 300 k's 3 different times (15th in career strikeouts)
He led the league in WHIP multiple times (he's had entire 200+ inning seasons where he allowed sub 1 WHIPs), etc.
He led the league in complete games 4 times (in the top 10 11 times)
He led the league in K/BB ratio 5 times (8th all time)
He is 65th all time in WAR (26th for pitchers) - that 65 is a list that includes pitchers and batters. 65th. Ahead of hall of famers like Jeter, Smoltz, Jim Palmer, Don Sutton, etc.
And wins is something as a Mets fan I have come around on being overrated for a pitcher evaluation. Jake deGrom won 2 CY Youngs without winning more than 11 games either time.
He has the accolades:
NLCS MVP
WS MVP
4 top 5 CY Young finishes, 3 2nd place finishes
6X all-star
He has the rings:
3 World Series rings (with two teams).
If that resume doesn't satisfy you, as long as you are consistent then fine, but don't keep him out because of his political view or lack of intelligence or because he's an asshole. That is my point.
belongs in the HOF per the #'s then that's up to you.
I do.
My point was he should not be kept out because people don't like him.
to me he satisfies the three pillars I named:
He has the stats:
He led the league in wins multiple times
He led the league strikeouts multiple times, eclipsing 300 k's 3 different times (15th in career strikeouts)
He led the league in WHIP multiple times (he's had entire 200+ inning seasons where he allowed sub 1 WHIPs), etc.
He led the league in complete games 4 times (in the top 10 11 times)
He led the league in K/BB ratio 5 times (8th all time)
He is 65th all time in WAR (26th for pitchers) - that 65 is a list that includes pitchers and batters. 65th. Ahead of hall of famers like Jeter, Smoltz, Jim Palmer, Don Sutton, etc.
And wins is something as a Mets fan I have come around on being overrated for a pitcher evaluation. Jake deGrom won 2 CY Youngs without winning more than 11 games either time.
He has the accolades:
NLCS MVP
WS MVP
4 top 5 CY Young finishes, 3 2nd place finishes
6X all-star
He has the rings:
3 World Series rings (with two teams).
If that resume doesn't satisfy you, as long as you are consistent then fine, but don't keep him out because of his political view or lack of intelligence or because he's an asshole. That is my point.
I completely respect that view. As I said yesterday, I could go either way on him getting in. I don't think his stats are a slam dunk, but they are close. I do agree that wins are not the end all to judging a pitcher, but it is a stat that many (most?) voters go to almost immediately. It is like HRs for hitters. They have a golden number in their minds, right or wrong.
I also agree that the only thing to keep him out should be that as a voter you just don't think his play warranted it. I think it is being oversimplified here as not getting in due to his political views. I don't buy that. He's not the first conservative to get into the HoF. However, he is a very controversial and outspoken figure who has said some extreme things. That is where I think he is getting hurt.
I 100% understand why baseball writers don't like Schilling. It's not "just" politics, it's the fact that he tweeted about and liked a shirt that promoted violence to media members. He's just a piece of trash.
That being said, he's easily a HOFer in my book. One of the best big game pitchers ever. The 1-2 duo of Johnson/Schilling is hands down the best duo I've seen in my years of watching baseball, and it's really not close. It's amazing the Yanks even had a chance to win that '01 World Series going up against those 2 monsters.
I'd take Schilling over Mussina, although maybe I'm underrating Moose's Baltimore years in a brutal roided out AL East.
for comparison, Jeter was at 71.3 and was 1 vote short of unanimous. Rivera was unanimous at 56.3
Harold Baines is in the HOF. His WAR is 38.7. Jack Morris is in the HOF his WAR is 43.5. Schilling's is almost the equivalent of a HOF starting pitcher and a HOF hitter combined. Such an absolute joke.
Just because Schilling has a higher WAR than Jeter, doesn’t make him a better baseball player than Derek Jeter. Jeter was a no doubt first ballot Hall of Famer, Schilling is debatable. Great postseason pitcher, but his regular season numbers aren’t a slam dunk Hall of Famer.
for comparison, Jeter was at 71.3 and was 1 vote short of unanimous. Rivera was unanimous at 56.3
Harold Baines is in the HOF. His WAR is 38.7. Jack Morris is in the HOF his WAR is 43.5. Schilling's is almost the equivalent of a HOF starting pitcher and a HOF hitter combined. Such an absolute joke.
Just because Schilling has a higher WAR than Jeter, doesn’t make him a better baseball player than Derek Jeter. Jeter was a no doubt first ballot Hall of Famer, Schilling is debatable. Great postseason pitcher, but his regular season numbers aren’t a slam dunk Hall of Famer.
because too much emphasis is placed on a pitcher's W-L record when the reality is that a pitcher only has so much control over the outcomes of games. The three things a pitcher can best control are strikeouts, walks, and home runs. And when it comes to that, Schilling was a great pitcher with some rather dominant seasons. Of course there are other things to look at as well. Was he in the Pedro/Randy/Clemens/Maddux tier? No, but he's right there with Mussina/Smoltz/Glavine
I can't stand the guy and am happy to see him get some bad karma after all of the awful things that he has said and done over the years, but when it comes to performance between the lines, he he was a fantastic pitcher whose name is one of the first mentioned when thinking about postseason performance.
hypocritical thing about the Hall is the attitude of some of the voters. There has been at least one Boston area voter who has said he will vote for Ortiz and will never vote for Bonds, Clemens or A-Rod.
Proud of his hypocrisy enough to state it publically
hypocritical thing about the Hall is the attitude of some of the voters. There has been at least one Boston area voter who has said he will vote for Ortiz and will never vote for Bonds, Clemens or A-Rod.
Proud of his hypocrisy enough to state it publically
Sean McAdam (Boston sportswriter) said he wouldn't vote for Piazza (because of bacne) but planned to vote for Ortiz and he said that proudly and publicly in a twitter response to me.
Tony Massarotti (Boston sports radio/newspaper personality) responded to me on twitter he wasn't voting for Piazza because he didn't think his numbers warranted inclusion, not because of PED's (LOL) but planned to vote for Ortis first time he was eligible.
Being recognized by other people typically requires not being a huckster, sham, asshole. And it definitely doesn’t help when you thumbs up the idea of murdering the people who do the honoring.
Schilling isn’t be marginalized for his politics, he’s being left off the guest list because he’s an insane asshole.
did he lift anything other than a spoon, knife, and fork?
Because it never looked like a Pillsbury Doughboy of the Dominican Republic EVER lifted a weight...
He certainly did something to transform from his alter-ego David Arias into a HOF candidate. The Twins, who were about as good as any franchise in MLB in identifying talent in the early '00s, let him go, and it wasn't especially shocking at the time - he was a pretty good but nothing special platoon bat.
And then he landed in a Boston clubhouse that had a number of guys who were conveniently skipped over in the Mitchell Report and goes on to have a HOF career while his body balloons in a way that typically happens more in Stamford at WWE HQ. Could be that he discovered clam chowder and the delicious pasta on the north end, or it could be that he got a little extra help along the way.
The only people who willfully ignore the very strong likelihood of Ortiz being a juicer are Sox fans and NESN talking heads, and even they, in their heart of hearts, know that his fairy tale story is mostly inflated.
did he lift anything other than a spoon, knife, and fork?
Because it never looked like a Pillsbury Doughboy of the Dominican Republic EVER lifted a weight...
He certainly did something to transform from his alter-ego David Arias into a HOF candidate. The Twins, who were about as good as any franchise in MLB in identifying talent in the early '00s, let him go, and it wasn't especially shocking at the time - he was a pretty good but nothing special platoon bat.
And then he landed in a Boston clubhouse that had a number of guys who were conveniently skipped over in the Mitchell Report and goes on to have a HOF career while his body balloons in a way that typically happens more in Stamford at WWE HQ. Could be that he discovered clam chowder and the delicious pasta on the north end, or it could be that he got a little extra help along the way.
The only people who willfully ignore the very strong likelihood of Ortiz being a juicer are Sox fans and NESN talking heads, and even they, in their heart of hearts, know that his fairy tale story is mostly inflated.
Ummm...he actually failed a test also. And ESPN and the rest of the national media also seem to ignore that he failed and almost certainly used for many years.
BINGO. If that fat fuck gets in they have let them all in.
If he does get in, what name he will use on plaque? Arias or Ortiz? Or Arias-Ortiz?
Because he's warm and cuddly?? Such a false, curated image.
Because he's warm and cuddly?? Such a false, curated image.
Yes, so true. Bullies reporters, screams out f-bombs to 40k people including children to "encourage Boston". Total asshole.
and he's so bad in the field he thought a 1B mitt was a fruit basket
Quote:
a baseball HOF without Bonds and Clemens is a total joke.
They both damaged the reputation of the game. Sucks, but they used performance enhancing drugs which is cheating. The sad part is that both had HOF talent without the enhancers.
The problem with going down that rabbit hole is the selective outrage at who cheated.
There are many HoF'ers who used enhancements and steroids. The difference is that some of them are "good guys" or they admitted fault.
Another puzzling part about Papi. He's not been contrite because he's never admitted to cheating.
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In comment 15135204 Producer said:
Quote:
a baseball HOF without Bonds and Clemens is a total joke.
They both damaged the reputation of the game. Sucks, but they used performance enhancing drugs which is cheating. The sad part is that both had HOF talent without the enhancers.
The problem with going down that rabbit hole is the selective outrage at who cheated.
There are many HoF'ers who used enhancements and steroids. The difference is that some of them are "good guys" or they admitted fault.
Another puzzling part about Papi. He's not been contrite because he's never admitted to cheating.
These points are exactly true. Either nobody is in, or every one is in. And who one voted for is never to be considered because that crap works both ways.
Harold Baines is in the HOF. His WAR is 38.7. Jack Morris is in the HOF his WAR is 43.5. Schilling's is almost the equivalent of a HOF starting pitcher and a HOF hitter combined. Such an absolute joke.
Quote:
In comment 15135204 Producer said:
Quote:
a baseball HOF without Bonds and Clemens is a total joke.
They both damaged the reputation of the game. Sucks, but they used performance enhancing drugs which is cheating. The sad part is that both had HOF talent without the enhancers.
The problem with going down that rabbit hole is the selective outrage at who cheated.
There are many HoF'ers who used enhancements and steroids. The difference is that some of them are "good guys" or they admitted fault.
Another puzzling part about Papi. He's not been contrite because he's never admitted to cheating.
Well, those guys are poor comparisons because they (rightly in my opinion) weren't considered HOF worthy by the writers. Schilling belongs in, but it's not because the veterans committee made mistakes on some inferior players.
That said, this isn't cancel culture for Schilling's political beliefs. It's members of the media not wanting to give an honor or platform to speak to a guy who has advocated for killing members of the media as well as other abominable things.
Should the voters hold that against Schilling? I don't think so because I view the voters as fiduciaries, or custodians, for the sport itself and for the fans. Plus, the sport has never cared about character issues or cheating for that matter when it was good for the bottom line. There are racists, domestic abusers, drunk drivers, cheaters, etc. in the Hall.
But I find Schilling so abhorrent and deserving of bad karma, that I'm not losing sleep of this situation.
I'm more concerned about the other deserving players kept out due to poor evaluation by the voters (Andruw Jones, Scott Rolen, Chase Utley when he's eventually up and denied, etc.)
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In comment 15135313 Mad Mike said:
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In comment 15135312 Stan in LA said:
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Really? I remember reading somewhere the jury found him innocent. I could be wrong...
When people think you're a fool, it's generally a poor tactic to prove them right.
So in this country you're guilty if a jury finds you innocent.
Got it!
No jury found him innocent. Not guilty does not equate to innocence. It just means the jury didn’t find you guilty beyond a reasonable doubt
This was his ninth. He, Bonds and Clemens all have one more.
Quote:
Harold Baines is in the HOF. His WAR is 38.7. Jack Morris is in the HOF his WAR is 43.5. Schilling's is almost the equivalent of a HOF starting pitcher and a HOF hitter combined. Such an absolute joke.
Well, those guys are poor comparisons because they (rightly in my opinion) weren't considered HOF worthy by the writers. Schilling belongs in, but it's not because the veterans committee made mistakes on some inferior players.
I understand that. They are still in the HOF. I picked those two because they are well known, and shows that Schilling's WAR is the equivalent of two HOFers combined, no matter how they got in. Schilling is a no doubt HOFer.
Yes, it was on live TV, uncensored, and with kids watching, but maybe it's a Boston thing why I don't hate he said it (and I hate all Boston sports teams except the Celtics), but I had family run that marathon, many watching my cousin finish directly in the spot that was bombed (luckily for us he finished well before the bomb). So it's personal for me.
Anyway, Ortiz spoke from the heart before they took the field for the first home game after Patriots Day, uncensored, and said "...this is our fucking city. Nobody is going to dictate our freedom. We will not be intimidated"
and it was the only time I liked him.
So, hate Ortiz all you want, hate the double standard, don't hate the F-bomb or that he wasn't chastised for using it, it was the perfect words at the right time.
IMO.
and he shouldn't be in the HOF, definitely not before Arod, Clemens, Bonds, etc.
That said, this isn't cancel culture for Schilling's political beliefs. It's members of the media not wanting to give an honor or platform to speak to a guy who has advocated for killing members of the media as well as other abominable things.
Should the voters hold that against Schilling? I don't think so because I view the voters as fiduciaries, or custodians, for the sport itself and for the fans. Plus, the sport has never cared about character issues or cheating for that matter when it was good for the bottom line. There are racists, domestic abusers, drunk drivers, cheaters, etc. in the Hall.
But I find Schilling so abhorrent and deserving of bad karma, that I'm not losing sleep of this situation.
I'm more concerned about the other deserving players kept out due to poor evaluation by the voters (Andruw Jones, Scott Rolen, Chase Utley when he's eventually up and denied, etc.)
Jeff Kent belongs
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In comment 15135426 Mad Mike said:
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In comment 15135357 djm said:
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Schilling can fucking wait if a guy like Mussina has to wait. And he’s an asshole to boot.
What are you talking about? Mussina is in, and Schilling has already waited several years longer than Mussina did.
Look, Schilling's career warrants the HOF. (And seriously people, stop with Pettitte, look beyond career W's and it's not a comparison). There's one reason he's not in, and it's not about playing baseball.
Exactly, not to mention Schilling was better than Mussina.
I don't think he was better. Mussina has 53 more wins (in 2 less years), higher winning percentage, higher WAR, multiple Gold Gloves,
I don't put a lot of emphasis on wins. Schilling came into the league as a relief guy/set-up for his first 3-4 years, so that probably impacts his win total. The WARs are close. But Mussina is slightly better.
But Schilling had more Ks, better ERA, better WHiP, and was just one of the greatest pitchers ever in the playoffs. Mussina was okay, but not in that stratosphere. And it's not like Schilling has a small playoff sample. It's robust with some of the best outings ever. With awards to compliment it - World Series MVP.
If I need a big game to win, I'm not choosing Mussina. I think most fans of baseball are going Schilling.
Schilling I'm less enthused about.
That said, this isn't cancel culture for Schilling's political beliefs. It's members of the media not wanting to give an honor or platform to speak to a guy who has advocated for killing members of the media as well as other abominable things.
Should the voters hold that against Schilling? I don't think so because I view the voters as fiduciaries, or custodians, for the sport itself and for the fans. Plus, the sport has never cared about character issues or cheating for that matter when it was good for the bottom line. There are racists, domestic abusers, drunk drivers, cheaters, etc. in the Hall.
But I find Schilling so abhorrent and deserving of bad karma, that I'm not losing sleep of this situation.
I'm more concerned about the other deserving players kept out due to poor evaluation by the voters (Andruw Jones, Scott Rolen, Chase Utley when he's eventually up and denied, etc.)
All three of these players are hard evaluations because they had excellent primes, but huge dropoffs at some point in their 30s.
Quote:
massive segregationist and piece of shit. Oh, the irony.
That said, this isn't cancel culture for Schilling's political beliefs. It's members of the media not wanting to give an honor or platform to speak to a guy who has advocated for killing members of the media as well as other abominable things.
Should the voters hold that against Schilling? I don't think so because I view the voters as fiduciaries, or custodians, for the sport itself and for the fans. Plus, the sport has never cared about character issues or cheating for that matter when it was good for the bottom line. There are racists, domestic abusers, drunk drivers, cheaters, etc. in the Hall.
But I find Schilling so abhorrent and deserving of bad karma, that I'm not losing sleep of this situation.
I'm more concerned about the other deserving players kept out due to poor evaluation by the voters (Andruw Jones, Scott Rolen, Chase Utley when he's eventually up and denied, etc.)
Jeff Kent belongs
Ehh, I lean no on Kent. I think Chase Utley was significantly better and I already see the writing on the wall for Utley. And as far as infielders go, Scott Rolen far more deserving as well.
to me for the HOF you need three things:
1. Stats (like it or not it's how you're measured vs your contemporaries
2. Accolades (again like it or not it's how you're measured vs your contemporaries)
3. Rings
If you don't have one of the three, the other two better be overwhelming
Belle has stats and accolades, no rings, and his stats aren't better enough vs his contemporaries (Juan Gonzalez for example), so to overcome his unlikability he needs to be overwhelming.
Schilling is, Belle is not. IMO. If Belle got in I would say it's a travesty, but he falls short in my vote.
Jose Canseco
@JoseCanseco
·
21h
Curt Schilling would be a disgrace to the Hall of Fame
The HOF is for great. Just my opinion.
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Albert Belle didn't get it.
to me for the HOF you need three things:
1. Stats (like it or not it's how you're measured vs your contemporaries
2. Accolades (again like it or not it's how you're measured vs your contemporaries)
3. Rings
If you don't have one of the three, the other two better be overwhelming
Belle has stats and accolades, no rings, and his stats aren't better enough vs his contemporaries (Juan Gonzalez for example), so to overcome his unlikability he needs to be overwhelming.
Schilling is, Belle is not. IMO. If Belle got in I would say it's a travesty, but he falls short in my vote.
Lots of world class assholes in the Hall of Fame.
I do.
My point was he should not be kept out because people don't like him.
to me he satisfies the three pillars I named:
He has the stats:
He led the league in wins multiple times
He led the league strikeouts multiple times, eclipsing 300 k's 3 different times (15th in career strikeouts)
He led the league in WHIP multiple times (he's had entire 200+ inning seasons where he allowed sub 1 WHIPs), etc.
He led the league in complete games 4 times (in the top 10 11 times)
He led the league in K/BB ratio 5 times (8th all time)
He is 65th all time in WAR (26th for pitchers) - that 65 is a list that includes pitchers and batters. 65th. Ahead of hall of famers like Jeter, Smoltz, Jim Palmer, Don Sutton, etc.
And wins is something as a Mets fan I have come around on being overrated for a pitcher evaluation. Jake deGrom won 2 CY Youngs without winning more than 11 games either time.
He has the accolades:
NLCS MVP
WS MVP
4 top 5 CY Young finishes, 3 2nd place finishes
6X all-star
He has the rings:
3 World Series rings (with two teams).
If that resume doesn't satisfy you, as long as you are consistent then fine, but don't keep him out because of his political view or lack of intelligence or because he's an asshole. That is my point.
I do.
My point was he should not be kept out because people don't like him.
to me he satisfies the three pillars I named:
He has the stats:
He led the league in wins multiple times
He led the league strikeouts multiple times, eclipsing 300 k's 3 different times (15th in career strikeouts)
He led the league in WHIP multiple times (he's had entire 200+ inning seasons where he allowed sub 1 WHIPs), etc.
He led the league in complete games 4 times (in the top 10 11 times)
He led the league in K/BB ratio 5 times (8th all time)
He is 65th all time in WAR (26th for pitchers) - that 65 is a list that includes pitchers and batters. 65th. Ahead of hall of famers like Jeter, Smoltz, Jim Palmer, Don Sutton, etc.
And wins is something as a Mets fan I have come around on being overrated for a pitcher evaluation. Jake deGrom won 2 CY Youngs without winning more than 11 games either time.
He has the accolades:
NLCS MVP
WS MVP
4 top 5 CY Young finishes, 3 2nd place finishes
6X all-star
He has the rings:
3 World Series rings (with two teams).
If that resume doesn't satisfy you, as long as you are consistent then fine, but don't keep him out because of his political view or lack of intelligence or because he's an asshole. That is my point.
I also agree that the only thing to keep him out should be that as a voter you just don't think his play warranted it. I think it is being oversimplified here as not getting in due to his political views. I don't buy that. He's not the first conservative to get into the HoF. However, he is a very controversial and outspoken figure who has said some extreme things. That is where I think he is getting hurt.
That being said, he's easily a HOFer in my book. One of the best big game pitchers ever. The 1-2 duo of Johnson/Schilling is hands down the best duo I've seen in my years of watching baseball, and it's really not close. It's amazing the Yanks even had a chance to win that '01 World Series going up against those 2 monsters.
I'd take Schilling over Mussina, although maybe I'm underrating Moose's Baltimore years in a brutal roided out AL East.
Harold Baines is in the HOF. His WAR is 38.7. Jack Morris is in the HOF his WAR is 43.5. Schilling's is almost the equivalent of a HOF starting pitcher and a HOF hitter combined. Such an absolute joke.
Just because Schilling has a higher WAR than Jeter, doesn’t make him a better baseball player than Derek Jeter. Jeter was a no doubt first ballot Hall of Famer, Schilling is debatable. Great postseason pitcher, but his regular season numbers aren’t a slam dunk Hall of Famer.
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for comparison, Jeter was at 71.3 and was 1 vote short of unanimous. Rivera was unanimous at 56.3
Harold Baines is in the HOF. His WAR is 38.7. Jack Morris is in the HOF his WAR is 43.5. Schilling's is almost the equivalent of a HOF starting pitcher and a HOF hitter combined. Such an absolute joke.
Just because Schilling has a higher WAR than Jeter, doesn’t make him a better baseball player than Derek Jeter. Jeter was a no doubt first ballot Hall of Famer, Schilling is debatable. Great postseason pitcher, but his regular season numbers aren’t a slam dunk Hall of Famer.
Didn't say he was a better baseball player.
I can't stand the guy and am happy to see him get some bad karma after all of the awful things that he has said and done over the years, but when it comes to performance between the lines, he he was a fantastic pitcher whose name is one of the first mentioned when thinking about postseason performance.
Proud of his hypocrisy enough to state it publically
Proud of his hypocrisy enough to state it publically
Sean McAdam (Boston sportswriter) said he wouldn't vote for Piazza (because of bacne) but planned to vote for Ortiz and he said that proudly and publicly in a twitter response to me.
Tony Massarotti (Boston sports radio/newspaper personality) responded to me on twitter he wasn't voting for Piazza because he didn't think his numbers warranted inclusion, not because of PED's (LOL) but planned to vote for Ortis first time he was eligible.
So they will keep a guy who never tested positive out of the HoF because of suspicion, but not the other guy!!
Reasonable.
I'll bet he's one of those Sawx media assholes who has seriously discussed Varitek as a Hall of Famer because of his "leadership".
Because it never looked like a Pillsbury Doughboy of the Dominican Republic EVER lifted a weight...
Schilling isn’t be marginalized for his politics, he’s being left off the guest list because he’s an insane asshole.
Because it never looked like a Pillsbury Doughboy of the Dominican Republic EVER lifted a weight...
He certainly did something to transform from his alter-ego David Arias into a HOF candidate. The Twins, who were about as good as any franchise in MLB in identifying talent in the early '00s, let him go, and it wasn't especially shocking at the time - he was a pretty good but nothing special platoon bat.
And then he landed in a Boston clubhouse that had a number of guys who were conveniently skipped over in the Mitchell Report and goes on to have a HOF career while his body balloons in a way that typically happens more in Stamford at WWE HQ. Could be that he discovered clam chowder and the delicious pasta on the north end, or it could be that he got a little extra help along the way.
The only people who willfully ignore the very strong likelihood of Ortiz being a juicer are Sox fans and NESN talking heads, and even they, in their heart of hearts, know that his fairy tale story is mostly inflated.
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did he lift anything other than a spoon, knife, and fork?
Because it never looked like a Pillsbury Doughboy of the Dominican Republic EVER lifted a weight...
He certainly did something to transform from his alter-ego David Arias into a HOF candidate. The Twins, who were about as good as any franchise in MLB in identifying talent in the early '00s, let him go, and it wasn't especially shocking at the time - he was a pretty good but nothing special platoon bat.
And then he landed in a Boston clubhouse that had a number of guys who were conveniently skipped over in the Mitchell Report and goes on to have a HOF career while his body balloons in a way that typically happens more in Stamford at WWE HQ. Could be that he discovered clam chowder and the delicious pasta on the north end, or it could be that he got a little extra help along the way.
The only people who willfully ignore the very strong likelihood of Ortiz being a juicer are Sox fans and NESN talking heads, and even they, in their heart of hearts, know that his fairy tale story is mostly inflated.
So they will keep a guy who never tested positive out of the HoF because of suspicion, but not the other guy!!
Reasonable.