It's an improbable expectation to see Growth in Production with a lack of availability of Talented Players around the QB. Shep is a 3...a reasonably nice 3, but a THREE. Slayton?... an erratic year would be Flattery. Tate?---he's not an NFL Player anymore.
You see flashes of Talent and also all of his Warts... Only he and his coaches can know what He was processing Pre Snap...and the Coach is saying there's been a Major improvement in that. He starts getting Paid soon.... so they need to have enough around him for him to succeeed, or they will need to start over on Everything. Roster Timing is like serving a great meal---Everything needs to be ready at the same time.
I will simply point to something Sy’56 wrote in his second-to-last game review of the 2020 campaign:
It is OK if you believe Jones is not the answer. It is OK if you think Jones is the answer. Nobody can objectively determine that right now. One thing we all can and should agree on: you don’t know. I don’t know. He doesn’t know. She doesn’t know. The kid has played TWENTY-FIVE games behind a bottom-5 offensive line, the worst set of receivers in football, a tight end who is among league leaders in drops, and a star running back who has missed 14 of 25 games in which Jones started. He needs to be better and I have been vocal about that. You can even argue NYG should start over at QB in the upcoming draft. But to say Jones and NYG should be better because he was the #6 pick (means almost nothing, do some research), or that Jones is a definitive bust, you just sound foolish. This kid has shown more in 25 games than SO MANY quality quarterbacks. That is a fact.
Piggybacking on what Sy’56 wrote, I’m not going to try to convince you that Jones is a good or bad NFL quarterback. Opinions are far too set in concrete. I will simply remind you that many, if not most, New York Giants fans were convinced Phil Simms was a dog as late as the 1986 season (the Giants passing game really struggled much of that year) and the same of Eli Manning in 2007 (just remember the mood after the November game against the Vikings). At the time, Simms was in his 8th NFL season and Manning in his 4th NFL season and fans were still calling both bums.
While he certainly had a disappointing sophomore season, no one can say with any certainty whether Jones will or will not be a successful starting QB in the NFL.
no doubt about that, including a bad offensive line (especially in Year One).
And, true, nobody knows for sure how his career unfolds.
But we have a pretty good feel for whether or not Daniel Jones develops into an ELITE NFL QB. The answer: probably not.
So, it all comes down to just how far below "elite" Daniel Jones really is... or will become. One or two steps down is fine with me -- "Good" will do. Below that and it's start all over again with the most important position on the team.
I don't pretend to know what Daniel Jones will be. I like him and as
most of us do I think. I want him to be our franchise QB. Although I often feel many hope he fails so they can say I told you so. But after the Bills lost last week in the playoffs the first thing Bill Cowher said post game was Josh Allen will be fine. He jus needs a couple more weapons? What? How many does he need? We say that on BBI and what is said. The QB needs to elevate those around him. Daniel Jones sucks. He is not the guy. Tom Brady the GOAT left New England. What keeps getting tossed around on sports radio here in Boston among other things is he couldn't win here now, they have no weapons for him. He had to leave and go to a team that had some weapons. What? The GOAT needs weapons. My point? I agree with the analysis above. We don't know what Daniel Jones is going to be. Maybe Judge does. But, until the Giants get him some more talent and his Oline shores up (hopefully with experience)we're all just couch coaches playin the guessing game.
RE: True, Daniel Jones has had a bottom-tier offense to work with
no doubt about that, including a bad offensive line (especially in Year One).
And, true, nobody knows for sure how his career unfolds.
But we have a pretty good feel for whether or not Daniel Jones develops into an ELITE NFL QB. The answer: probably not.
very few do. and it has nothing to do with their draft slot.
So, it all comes down to just how far below "elite" Daniel Jones really is... or will become. One or two steps down is fine with me -- "Good" will do. Below that and it's start all over again with the most important position on the team.
RE: True, Daniel Jones has had a bottom-tier offense to work with
no doubt about that, including a bad offensive line (especially in Year One).
And, true, nobody knows for sure how his career unfolds.
But we have a pretty good feel for whether or not Daniel Jones develops into an ELITE NFL QB. The answer: probably not.
So, it all comes down to just how far below "elite" Daniel Jones really is... or will become. One or two steps down is fine with me -- "Good" will do. Below that and it's start all over again with the most important position on the team.
Kind of contradictory there, no? Not sure how his career unfolds but knowing whether he COULD develop into an NFL elite QB? I'm not saying by any means I think he will or will not, but he's flashed some really good things. Point being, saying anything definitively one way or the other right now doesn't make sense, especially with the surrounding cast he's had through his first two years, Barkley being out 14 of the 26 games he's played, etc.
The GM who selected him isn’t going to admit a colossal mistake after just 2 years. Plus, unless you trade future draft capital, at 11 you’re basically taking whatever is left in the draft and that’s not optimal. The only guys in this draft I think are lock stars are Lawrence and Wilson. The other 2, Lance and Fields, might be more talented than Jones too. But Dave isn’t going there. He’s going to invest heavy into the offense and give Jones the best chance at success in 2021. If Jones puts up another poor year and the team goes 6-10, the question then is “what’s the next step?”. Unfortunately, unless someone comes out of nowhere in college next fall and blows it up, the top QB prospects are Howell from UNC, who probably goes #1 overall in 2022 and Rattler from Oklahoma, who I think stinks. Does Georgia’s JT Daniels light it up in the SEC and put himself into the discussion? The point is if Jones stinks up the field again do the NYG look to the draft, which at this point looks poor? Or do they look for a FA stop gap until a better QB class becomes available? If Jones bombs, the future of the position becomes very murky.
RE: True, Daniel Jones has had a bottom-tier offense to work with
no doubt about that, including a bad offensive line (especially in Year One).
And, true, nobody knows for sure how his career unfolds.
But we have a pretty good feel for whether or not Daniel Jones develops into an ELITE NFL QB. The answer: probably not.
So, it all comes down to just how far below "elite" Daniel Jones really is... or will become. One or two steps down is fine with me -- "Good" will do. Below that and it's start all over again with the most important position on the team.
It is too soon to say in any direction. Aaron Rodgers did not start a game until his 4th season. Drew Brees, in his first two seasons as a starter, had a combined TD/INT ratio of 28/31. RGIII was supposed to be the next great QB after his rookie year and look what happened. The true tell will be if we spend this offeason upgrading the skill positions and Jones still struggles. If we start slowly then Garrett probably gets canned and replaced by Freddie Kitchens. If Jones still doesn't improve the Giants will look for a replacement.
Let's hope that the Giants add talent at WR and TE. If they do we might see Jones play more like he did during his rookie season but hopefully he will continue to decrease the number of fumbles. If he does that then the Giants are in very good shape for the future.
While I am not a huge fan of Garrett I am glad that the Giants are not bringing in another new offense which would be Jones' third offense in three years.
The Giants also need to add more talent at RB in the draft especially if they lose Gallman in FA.
Hmmm, I disagree. With a fair degree of certainty: He will be an outstanding qb.
For a relative aside, last year at this precise time Josh Allen was the lowest qb in accuracy on passes over 20 yds. The same rating system calls Jones one of the best on downfield throws
They are both tough guys with extreme work ethics. That might be as important as anything. They both will be all they can be.
The naysayers here little noted as Joneses turnovers were reduced and then all but disappeared.
I watched his pocket presence increase somewhat dramatically over the last two or three games.
This kid set records in his freshman - in spite of adversity. His accuracy was Unreal as he threw receivers open and hit receivers with no separation.
he survived, if only barely, A Perfect Storm last year. A new system with no preseason. A completely new offensive line - with no preseason. The loss of Barkley and the quarterback destroying drops Of Evan.
He persevered and son of a gun if we didn't finish 5 + 3. Wow, too bad it's not enough for the naysayers.
Hmmm, I disagree. With a fair degree of certainty: He will be an outstanding qb.
For a relative aside, last year at this precise time Josh Allen was the lowest qb in accuracy on passes over 20 yds. The same rating system calls Jones one of the best on downfield throws
They are both tough guys with extreme work ethics. That might be as important as anything. They both will be all they can be.
The naysayers here little noted as Joneses turnovers were reduced and then all but disappeared.
I watched his pocket presence increase somewhat dramatically over the last two or three games.
This kid set records in his freshman - in spite of adversity. His accuracy was Unreal as he threw receivers open and hit receivers with no separation.
he survived, if only barely, A Perfect Storm last year. A new system with no preseason. A completely new offensive line - with no preseason. The loss of Barkley and the quarterback destroying drops Of Evan.
He persevered and son of a gun if we didn't finish 5 + 3. Wow, too bad it's not enough for the naysayers.
You make a good point re Josh Allen. Imagine the screaming here if Jones doesn't throw the ball away and take multiple 15-25 yard sacks even in a preseason game? I saw enough of Allen the last few weeks to question all the love he gets around here.
For Daniel Jones. It’s true that his supporting cast isn’t the best, but franchise QBs have to find ways to lift their teammates. Either he shows marked improvement in his pocket awareness, pre-snap play recognition, and leadership, or he will have another disappointing season.
He could either have good season and have us competing for the division in a weak division, or he will be Sam Darnold, who everyone wants out after 3 years of being picked 3rd overall in the draft. We shall see.
The things Judge said you can throw the fuck out(any coach or GM). Count me among the people that think trying to decipher anything out of an article or press release is silly. Any good coach says the guy is the guy unless he has someone else. I mean what good would it do him to place public doubt on his confidence in Jones to his team?
That said Jones is getting another year and he always was. DG would have had to go. He didn't, jones is the QB in 2021.
I am good with it because it is better for me as a fan if he does well. This is it though, Jones needs to prove it, this team has a habit of blaming failure on excuses. I have grown tired of excuses.
Either DG did not surround him with enough quality, Daniel Jones wasn't good enough or the coaching staff did not use him to the best of his abilities. Some combination of all of it? 6-10 isn't good enough. 15-33 is not good enough. Nothing wrong with wanting more.
I will simply point to something Sy’56 wrote in his second-to-last game review of the 2020 campaign:
It is OK if you believe Jones is not the answer. It is OK if you think Jones is the answer. Nobody can objectively determine that right now. One thing we all can and should agree on: you don’t know. I don’t know. He doesn’t know. She doesn’t know. The kid has played TWENTY-FIVE games behind a bottom-5 offensive line, the worst set of receivers in football, a tight end who is among league leaders in drops, and a star running back who has missed 14 of 25 games in which Jones started. He needs to be better and I have been vocal about that. You can even argue NYG should start over at QB in the upcoming draft. But to say Jones and NYG should be better because he was the #6 pick (means almost nothing, do some research), or that Jones is a definitive bust, you just sound foolish. This kid has shown more in 25 games than SO MANY quality quarterbacks. That is a fact.
Piggybacking on what Sy’56 wrote, I’m not going to try to convince you that Jones is a good or bad NFL quarterback. Opinions are far too set in concrete. I will simply remind you that many, if not most, New York Giants fans were convinced Phil Simms was a dog as late as the 1986 season (the Giants passing game really struggled much of that year) and the same of Eli Manning in 2007 (just remember the mood after the November game against the Vikings). At the time, Simms was in his 8th NFL season and Manning in his 4th NFL season and fans were still calling both bums.
While he certainly had a disappointing sophomore season, no one can say with any certainty whether Jones will or will not be a successful starting QB in the NFL.
... there doesn’t seem to be much of a chance that the Giants would draft a QB at #11, or pull a Ravens and build around a particular non-traditional QB — it goes against the old school DNA of the franchise. Also agree that Jones has had a lot of cards stacked against him over the past 2 years. Maybe he’ll develop in a way that allows us to compete in today’s NFL, hoping for a big/surprising 2021.
For Daniel Jones. It’s true that his supporting cast isn’t the best, but franchise QBs have to find ways to lift their teammates. Either he shows marked improvement in his pocket awareness, pre-snap play recognition, and leadership, or he will have another disappointing season.
He could either have good season and have us competing for the division in a weak division, or he will be Sam Darnold, who everyone wants out after 3 years of being picked 3rd overall in the draft. We shall see.
I would argue that Jones indeed tried to lift his team...with his legs. When things aren't there...which is often...he runs. And gets positive yardage most of the time. I don't have stats handy and it's anecdotal, I know, but he made chicken salad out of chicken shit with his legs more than once. I don't believe even Aaron Rodgers or Tom Brady would have been able to "lift" this team under its current circumstance.
he never beat a team with a winning record, and still has not.
Do you want to review Eli's record in the second half of his career. He is a hair away from being a career losing QB. I don't think that was on him.
Eli's experience doesn't tell us anything about Jones.
Jones is not Eli, and this isn't 2006.
I don't believe that's what Eric is going for. Simply that one player doesn't win games on their own. The Giants not beating a team with a winning record these past two seasons while Jones was the starting QB is not complete reflection on Jones.
but it's hard not to recall his evaluation of Jones coming out of Duke:
Quote:
I wanted to like Jones more than this, I really did. I have a thing for tough quarterbacks and I do think he brought his teammates to another level. That’s a trend that can really make a kid break out in the NFL. While I do have a 1st round grade on him and I do think he can be in play at 17 because of the position he plays, I think NYG may need to steer clear here. Jones has enough arm strength, touch, and athletic ability. But there isn’t a quick mind here, he doesn’t see everything a top tier QB does whether it is coverage or pass rush based.(emphasis added) After a long time scouting him, he is a pass for me.
After two years of NFL coaching, the main problems Sy identified still remain. And whatever improvement Jones showed in the final games, he still doesn't pass the eye test of a QB who moves naturally in the pocket. I do have a lot of respect for Judge, and I think he does believe in Jones, so we'll get another year for sure. But I worry he'll be our version of Mitch Trubisky. There's talent and enough playmaking ability to keep us intrigued, and because the organization grossly overdrafted him, it's hard to get an honest evaluation - so everyone keeps hoping for the great leap that just never comes and the team ends up in QB limbo.
Really? That's your interpretation of what I said?
Eli had Odell and a healthy Saquon Barkley and it didn't really help him, did it? Eli had no defense and a horrible OL around him for most of his second half of his career (2016 defense was the exception and they went to the playoffs).
My point clearly is most quarterbacks are vulnerable to the talent that surrounds them. Look at the RB/WR/TE mess on the Giants in 2020.
-I think you look at QB's today much different than 10-15 years ago and certainly well before that. College football is far more advanced in schemes on both sides. Jones also had outstanding coaching. Now if he played at Nebraska under Osbourne then I can understand looking at him for 25-30 games.
-Even if the Giants themselves have concerns I don't think they would voice it. It serves no purpose. He has no attitude/work ethic issues so it is not like you need to light a fire.
-This biggest issue I see is I am not sure if he can correct the issues he has the biggest being poise in the pocket. I think he gets overwhelmed. I also am concerned on the deep/strong throws like a back shoulder on the sideline where you really need arm strength and it is much different than throwing a 60 yard bomb. Those difficult throws are what you need against better teams...certainly the playoffs
-No easily solution. So many of these QB's drafted high don't work out. Many are able to be decent with good teams around them. I feel this may be what we get from Jones. Some good games, some winning seasons when the team is really good around him but ultimately won't win those couple key games you need him to in big moments. Hope I'm wrong.
RE: RE: Year 3 is going to be a make or break year
For Daniel Jones. It’s true that his supporting cast isn’t the best, but franchise QBs have to find ways to lift their teammates. Either he shows marked improvement in his pocket awareness, pre-snap play recognition, and leadership, or he will have another disappointing season.
He could either have good season and have us competing for the division in a weak division, or he will be Sam Darnold, who everyone wants out after 3 years of being picked 3rd overall in the draft. We shall see.
I would argue that Jones indeed tried to lift his team...with his legs. When things aren't there...which is often...he runs. And gets positive yardage most of the time. I don't have stats handy and it's anecdotal, I know, but he made chicken salad out of chicken shit with his legs more than once. I don't believe even Aaron Rodgers or Tom Brady would have been able to "lift" this team under its current circumstance.
Aaron Rodgers couldn’t lift this team? Wow, I don’t know what tell you if you really believe that.
but it's hard not to recall his evaluation of Jones coming out of Duke:
Quote:
I wanted to like Jones more than this, I really did. I have a thing for tough quarterbacks and I do think he brought his teammates to another level. That’s a trend that can really make a kid break out in the NFL. While I do have a 1st round grade on him and I do think he can be in play at 17 because of the position he plays, I think NYG may need to steer clear here. Jones has enough arm strength, touch, and athletic ability. But there isn’t a quick mind here, he doesn’t see everything a top tier QB does whether it is coverage or pass rush based.(emphasis added) After a long time scouting him, he is a pass for me.
After two years of NFL coaching, the main problems Sy identified still remain. And whatever improvement Jones showed in the final games, he still doesn't pass the eye test of a QB who moves naturally in the pocket. I do have a lot of respect for Judge, and I think he does believe in Jones, so we'll get another year for sure. But I worry he'll be our version of Mitch Trubisky. There's talent and enough playmaking ability to keep us intrigued, and because the organization grossly overdrafted him, it's hard to get an honest evaluation - so everyone keeps hoping for the great leap that just never comes and the team ends up in QB limbo.
Every single time we talk about Jones, someone brings up Sy's pre-draft review. Well, except Sy. Who is here. I have seen him criticize Jones in the game reviews, but to my knowledge, he himself has not re-posted this post and said "I told you so". I am curious as to whether SY feels, overall and not just in the game to game review, that his earlier evaluation still holds true in toto and whether or not he feels Jones is irredeemable.
have said they know what he is or isn't. This is a strawman argument clowns from both sides uses to make a point. There are about 5 posters on this site that have claimed he is a future all-pro or a bust.
The question is how long do you give a QB to prove himself? That question is slightly different with Jones because statistically (and to many the eye test as well) he was a less effective player in his second year than first. Incremental growth, but growth all the same, changes the narrative. If you reverse how Jones looked in 2019 and 2020, I think you would see a lot more positive posts about his future. But his play got significantly worse from year 1 to year 2. That is why many people are down on him.
Jones will most likely improve from 2020 to 2021. If he doesn't I think they almost have to move on. But assuming he does improve, the question is how quickly, and what is his ceiling?
After next year the Giants need to feel pretty good about where he is and the progress he is making on whether to sign him longer term or even pick up his 5th year option, or they need to start thinking about Plan B. Unfortunately for him and us, he is likely going to do it on a team that is still lacking much in the way of weapons and protection on offense.
but it's hard not to recall his evaluation of Jones coming out of Duke:
Quote:
I wanted to like Jones more than this, I really did. I have a thing for tough quarterbacks and I do think he brought his teammates to another level. That’s a trend that can really make a kid break out in the NFL. While I do have a 1st round grade on him and I do think he can be in play at 17 because of the position he plays, I think NYG may need to steer clear here. Jones has enough arm strength, touch, and athletic ability. But there isn’t a quick mind here, he doesn’t see everything a top tier QB does whether it is coverage or pass rush based.(emphasis added) After a long time scouting him, he is a pass for me.
After two years of NFL coaching, the main problems Sy identified still remain. And whatever improvement Jones showed in the final games, he still doesn't pass the eye test of a QB who moves naturally in the pocket. I do have a lot of respect for Judge, and I think he does believe in Jones, so we'll get another year for sure. But I worry he'll be our version of Mitch Trubisky. There's talent and enough playmaking ability to keep us intrigued, and because the organization grossly overdrafted him, it's hard to get an honest evaluation - so everyone keeps hoping for the great leap that just never comes and the team ends up in QB limbo.
Every single time we talk about Jones, someone brings up Sy's pre-draft review. Well, except Sy. Who is here. I have seen him criticize Jones in the game reviews, but to my knowledge, he himself has not re-posted this post and said "I told you so". I am curious as to whether SY feels, overall and not just in the game to game review, that his earlier evaluation still holds true in toto and whether or not he feels Jones is irredeemable.
Here Bill L. From Sy's Week 16 review:
"It is OK if you believe Jones is not the answer. It is OK if you think Jones is the answer. Nobody can objectively determine that right now. One thing we all can and should agree on: you don’t know. I don’t know. He doesn’t know. She doesn’t know. The kid has played TWENTY-FIVE games behind a bottom-5 offensive line, the worst set of receivers in football, a tight end who is among league leaders in drops, and a star running back who has missed 14 of 25 games in which Jones started. He needs to be better and I have been vocal about that. You can even argue NYG should start over at QB in the upcoming draft. But to say Jones and NYG should be better because he was the #6 pick (means almost nothing, do some research), or that Jones is a definitive bust, you just sound foolish. This kid has shown more in 25 games than SO MANY quality quarterbacks. That is a fact"
I can get behind that. And, it seems somewhat revised from what people are posting his opinion as being.
I don't think I see a revision between the scouting analysis in 2019 and the summary above. Only Sy knows and hopefully he will see this and respond, because I think Jones' primary struggles have been mental, not physical.
Sy said Jones needs to play better. He also said he doesn't know what he will or won't be. None of that seems to contradict what he said in the scouting report.
I can get behind that. And, it seems somewhat revised from what people are posting his opinion as being.
I don't think I see a revision between the scouting analysis in 2019 and the summary above. Only Sy knows and hopefully he will see this and respond, because I think Jones' primary struggles have been mental, not physical.
Sy said Jones needs to play better. He also said he doesn't know what he will or won't be. None of that seems to contradict what he said in the scouting report.
I wish he would too. And, I do see a contradiction in that people re-post his analysis as this is what Jones is (and that's all he ever will be).
BBI either thinks that Jones sucks and should be replaced as quickly as possible, or that he's shown flashes of high quality play that will increase when he gets a few more weapons. I am in the latter category.
Giants receivers had the least separation of any in the NFL last year. Barkley was out for almost the whole season. The OL improved, but still had problems. Engram is maddeningly inconsistent.
BBI either thinks that Jones sucks and should be replaced as quickly as possible, or that he's shown flashes of high quality play that will increase when he gets a few more weapons. I am in the latter category.
Giants receivers had the least separation of any in the NFL last year. Barkley was out for almost the whole season. The OL improved, but still had problems. Engram is maddeningly inconsistent.
There is an argument to made that by simply having Saquon Barkley back on the field and Evan Engram off of it (no other changes whatsoever), Daniel Jones and the New York Giants will have a winning record next season.
He too would have had a losing record IMO. Now he may not have turned the ball over as much and may have won a few more games, the talent here just is not capable of helping anQB win games. That has to change this off-season and it appears that it will. With improved Oline play, from the start, and a group of weapons deployed, I believe Jones will be capable of much greater things next season!
He too would have had a losing record IMO. Now he may not have turned the ball over as much and may have won a few more games, the talent here just is not capable of helping anQB win games. That has to change this off-season and it appears that it will. With improved Oline play, from the start, and a group of weapons deployed, I believe Jones will be capable of much greater things next season!
The Giants would be a playoff team with Mahomes. We would be 10-6 or even 11-5 with Mahomes. The Giants were a good defensive team this year. There’s no comparison between Jones and Mahomes. Stop this nonsense.
You see flashes of Talent and also all of his Warts... Only he and his coaches can know what He was processing Pre Snap...and the Coach is saying there's been a Major improvement in that. He starts getting Paid soon.... so they need to have enough around him for him to succeeed, or they will need to start over on Everything. Roster Timing is like serving a great meal---Everything needs to be ready at the same time.
It is OK if you believe Jones is not the answer. It is OK if you think Jones is the answer. Nobody can objectively determine that right now. One thing we all can and should agree on: you don’t know. I don’t know. He doesn’t know. She doesn’t know. The kid has played TWENTY-FIVE games behind a bottom-5 offensive line, the worst set of receivers in football, a tight end who is among league leaders in drops, and a star running back who has missed 14 of 25 games in which Jones started. He needs to be better and I have been vocal about that. You can even argue NYG should start over at QB in the upcoming draft. But to say Jones and NYG should be better because he was the #6 pick (means almost nothing, do some research), or that Jones is a definitive bust, you just sound foolish. This kid has shown more in 25 games than SO MANY quality quarterbacks. That is a fact.
Piggybacking on what Sy’56 wrote, I’m not going to try to convince you that Jones is a good or bad NFL quarterback. Opinions are far too set in concrete. I will simply remind you that many, if not most, New York Giants fans were convinced Phil Simms was a dog as late as the 1986 season (the Giants passing game really struggled much of that year) and the same of Eli Manning in 2007 (just remember the mood after the November game against the Vikings). At the time, Simms was in his 8th NFL season and Manning in his 4th NFL season and fans were still calling both bums.
While he certainly had a disappointing sophomore season, no one can say with any certainty whether Jones will or will not be a successful starting QB in the NFL.
LOL!
no doubt about that, including a bad offensive line (especially in Year One).
And, true, nobody knows for sure how his career unfolds.
But we have a pretty good feel for whether or not Daniel Jones develops into an ELITE NFL QB. The answer: probably not.
So, it all comes down to just how far below "elite" Daniel Jones really is... or will become. One or two steps down is fine with me -- "Good" will do. Below that and it's start all over again with the most important position on the team.
no doubt about that, including a bad offensive line (especially in Year One).
And, true, nobody knows for sure how his career unfolds.
But we have a pretty good feel for whether or not Daniel Jones develops into an ELITE NFL QB. The answer: probably not.
very few do. and it has nothing to do with their draft slot.
So, it all comes down to just how far below "elite" Daniel Jones really is... or will become. One or two steps down is fine with me -- "Good" will do. Below that and it's start all over again with the most important position on the team.
no doubt about that, including a bad offensive line (especially in Year One).
And, true, nobody knows for sure how his career unfolds.
But we have a pretty good feel for whether or not Daniel Jones develops into an ELITE NFL QB. The answer: probably not.
So, it all comes down to just how far below "elite" Daniel Jones really is... or will become. One or two steps down is fine with me -- "Good" will do. Below that and it's start all over again with the most important position on the team.
Kind of contradictory there, no? Not sure how his career unfolds but knowing whether he COULD develop into an NFL elite QB? I'm not saying by any means I think he will or will not, but he's flashed some really good things. Point being, saying anything definitively one way or the other right now doesn't make sense, especially with the surrounding cast he's had through his first two years, Barkley being out 14 of the 26 games he's played, etc.
no doubt about that, including a bad offensive line (especially in Year One).
And, true, nobody knows for sure how his career unfolds.
But we have a pretty good feel for whether or not Daniel Jones develops into an ELITE NFL QB. The answer: probably not.
So, it all comes down to just how far below "elite" Daniel Jones really is... or will become. One or two steps down is fine with me -- "Good" will do. Below that and it's start all over again with the most important position on the team.
It is too soon to say in any direction. Aaron Rodgers did not start a game until his 4th season. Drew Brees, in his first two seasons as a starter, had a combined TD/INT ratio of 28/31. RGIII was supposed to be the next great QB after his rookie year and look what happened. The true tell will be if we spend this offeason upgrading the skill positions and Jones still struggles. If we start slowly then Garrett probably gets canned and replaced by Freddie Kitchens. If Jones still doesn't improve the Giants will look for a replacement.
While I am not a huge fan of Garrett I am glad that the Giants are not bringing in another new offense which would be Jones' third offense in three years.
The Giants also need to add more talent at RB in the draft especially if they lose Gallman in FA.
For a relative aside, last year at this precise time Josh Allen was the lowest qb in accuracy on passes over 20 yds. The same rating system calls Jones one of the best on downfield throws
They are both tough guys with extreme work ethics. That might be as important as anything. They both will be all they can be.
The naysayers here little noted as Joneses turnovers were reduced and then all but disappeared.
I watched his pocket presence increase somewhat dramatically over the last two or three games.
This kid set records in his freshman - in spite of adversity. His accuracy was Unreal as he threw receivers open and hit receivers with no separation.
he survived, if only barely, A Perfect Storm last year. A new system with no preseason. A completely new offensive line - with no preseason. The loss of Barkley and the quarterback destroying drops Of Evan.
He persevered and son of a gun if we didn't finish 5 + 3. Wow, too bad it's not enough for the naysayers.
For a relative aside, last year at this precise time Josh Allen was the lowest qb in accuracy on passes over 20 yds. The same rating system calls Jones one of the best on downfield throws
They are both tough guys with extreme work ethics. That might be as important as anything. They both will be all they can be.
The naysayers here little noted as Joneses turnovers were reduced and then all but disappeared.
I watched his pocket presence increase somewhat dramatically over the last two or three games.
This kid set records in his freshman - in spite of adversity. His accuracy was Unreal as he threw receivers open and hit receivers with no separation.
he survived, if only barely, A Perfect Storm last year. A new system with no preseason. A completely new offensive line - with no preseason. The loss of Barkley and the quarterback destroying drops Of Evan.
He persevered and son of a gun if we didn't finish 5 + 3. Wow, too bad it's not enough for the naysayers.
You make a good point re Josh Allen. Imagine the screaming here if Jones doesn't throw the ball away and take multiple 15-25 yard sacks even in a preseason game? I saw enough of Allen the last few weeks to question all the love he gets around here.
He could either have good season and have us competing for the division in a weak division, or he will be Sam Darnold, who everyone wants out after 3 years of being picked 3rd overall in the draft. We shall see.
That said Jones is getting another year and he always was. DG would have had to go. He didn't, jones is the QB in 2021.
I am good with it because it is better for me as a fan if he does well. This is it though, Jones needs to prove it, this team has a habit of blaming failure on excuses. I have grown tired of excuses.
Either DG did not surround him with enough quality, Daniel Jones wasn't good enough or the coaching staff did not use him to the best of his abilities. Some combination of all of it? 6-10 isn't good enough. 15-33 is not good enough. Nothing wrong with wanting more.
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I will simply point to something Sy’56 wrote in his second-to-last game review of the 2020 campaign:
It is OK if you believe Jones is not the answer. It is OK if you think Jones is the answer. Nobody can objectively determine that right now. One thing we all can and should agree on: you don’t know. I don’t know. He doesn’t know. She doesn’t know. The kid has played TWENTY-FIVE games behind a bottom-5 offensive line, the worst set of receivers in football, a tight end who is among league leaders in drops, and a star running back who has missed 14 of 25 games in which Jones started. He needs to be better and I have been vocal about that. You can even argue NYG should start over at QB in the upcoming draft. But to say Jones and NYG should be better because he was the #6 pick (means almost nothing, do some research), or that Jones is a definitive bust, you just sound foolish. This kid has shown more in 25 games than SO MANY quality quarterbacks. That is a fact.
Piggybacking on what Sy’56 wrote, I’m not going to try to convince you that Jones is a good or bad NFL quarterback. Opinions are far too set in concrete. I will simply remind you that many, if not most, New York Giants fans were convinced Phil Simms was a dog as late as the 1986 season (the Giants passing game really struggled much of that year) and the same of Eli Manning in 2007 (just remember the mood after the November game against the Vikings). At the time, Simms was in his 8th NFL season and Manning in his 4th NFL season and fans were still calling both bums.
While he certainly had a disappointing sophomore season, no one can say with any certainty whether Jones will or will not be a successful starting QB in the NFL.
"Hold my beer" - GoTerps
Yes. Jones lost. Not the Giants
I get OL was a work in progress but basically removing his best feature.... accurate deep throws was confusing.
The quickest path for the Giants back to relevancy is for DJ to be good.
He seems like a great kid and given the path he had to the NFL and all the naysayers - he's an easy kid to root for.
I really hope he's the answer.
Do you want to review Eli's record in the second half of his career. He is a hair away from being a career losing QB. I don't think that was on him.
He could either have good season and have us competing for the division in a weak division, or he will be Sam Darnold, who everyone wants out after 3 years of being picked 3rd overall in the draft. We shall see.
I would argue that Jones indeed tried to lift his team...with his legs. When things aren't there...which is often...he runs. And gets positive yardage most of the time. I don't have stats handy and it's anecdotal, I know, but he made chicken salad out of chicken shit with his legs more than once. I don't believe even Aaron Rodgers or Tom Brady would have been able to "lift" this team under its current circumstance.
It hurt but I laughed
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he never beat a team with a winning record, and still has not.
Do you want to review Eli's record in the second half of his career. He is a hair away from being a career losing QB. I don't think that was on him.
Eli's experience doesn't tell us anything about Jones.
Jones is not Eli, and this isn't 2006.
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In comment 15135774 US1 Giants said:
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he never beat a team with a winning record, and still has not.
Do you want to review Eli's record in the second half of his career. He is a hair away from being a career losing QB. I don't think that was on him.
Eli's experience doesn't tell us anything about Jones.
Jones is not Eli, and this isn't 2006.
After two years of NFL coaching, the main problems Sy identified still remain. And whatever improvement Jones showed in the final games, he still doesn't pass the eye test of a QB who moves naturally in the pocket. I do have a lot of respect for Judge, and I think he does believe in Jones, so we'll get another year for sure. But I worry he'll be our version of Mitch Trubisky. There's talent and enough playmaking ability to keep us intrigued, and because the organization grossly overdrafted him, it's hard to get an honest evaluation - so everyone keeps hoping for the great leap that just never comes and the team ends up in QB limbo.
Eli had Odell and a healthy Saquon Barkley and it didn't really help him, did it? Eli had no defense and a horrible OL around him for most of his second half of his career (2016 defense was the exception and they went to the playoffs).
My point clearly is most quarterbacks are vulnerable to the talent that surrounds them. Look at the RB/WR/TE mess on the Giants in 2020.
And I'll ask the question again - if the surrounding talent and coaching are so poor then why the hell are Gettleman and Garrett still there?
The team clearly sucks, but it appears no one is at fault.
-Even if the Giants themselves have concerns I don't think they would voice it. It serves no purpose. He has no attitude/work ethic issues so it is not like you need to light a fire.
-This biggest issue I see is I am not sure if he can correct the issues he has the biggest being poise in the pocket. I think he gets overwhelmed. I also am concerned on the deep/strong throws like a back shoulder on the sideline where you really need arm strength and it is much different than throwing a 60 yard bomb. Those difficult throws are what you need against better teams...certainly the playoffs
-No easily solution. So many of these QB's drafted high don't work out. Many are able to be decent with good teams around them. I feel this may be what we get from Jones. Some good games, some winning seasons when the team is really good around him but ultimately won't win those couple key games you need him to in big moments. Hope I'm wrong.
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For Daniel Jones. It’s true that his supporting cast isn’t the best, but franchise QBs have to find ways to lift their teammates. Either he shows marked improvement in his pocket awareness, pre-snap play recognition, and leadership, or he will have another disappointing season.
He could either have good season and have us competing for the division in a weak division, or he will be Sam Darnold, who everyone wants out after 3 years of being picked 3rd overall in the draft. We shall see.
I would argue that Jones indeed tried to lift his team...with his legs. When things aren't there...which is often...he runs. And gets positive yardage most of the time. I don't have stats handy and it's anecdotal, I know, but he made chicken salad out of chicken shit with his legs more than once. I don't believe even Aaron Rodgers or Tom Brady would have been able to "lift" this team under its current circumstance.
Aaron Rodgers couldn’t lift this team? Wow, I don’t know what tell you if you really believe that.
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I wanted to like Jones more than this, I really did. I have a thing for tough quarterbacks and I do think he brought his teammates to another level. That’s a trend that can really make a kid break out in the NFL. While I do have a 1st round grade on him and I do think he can be in play at 17 because of the position he plays, I think NYG may need to steer clear here. Jones has enough arm strength, touch, and athletic ability. But there isn’t a quick mind here, he doesn’t see everything a top tier QB does whether it is coverage or pass rush based.(emphasis added) After a long time scouting him, he is a pass for me.
After two years of NFL coaching, the main problems Sy identified still remain. And whatever improvement Jones showed in the final games, he still doesn't pass the eye test of a QB who moves naturally in the pocket. I do have a lot of respect for Judge, and I think he does believe in Jones, so we'll get another year for sure. But I worry he'll be our version of Mitch Trubisky. There's talent and enough playmaking ability to keep us intrigued, and because the organization grossly overdrafted him, it's hard to get an honest evaluation - so everyone keeps hoping for the great leap that just never comes and the team ends up in QB limbo.
Every single time we talk about Jones, someone brings up Sy's pre-draft review. Well, except Sy. Who is here. I have seen him criticize Jones in the game reviews, but to my knowledge, he himself has not re-posted this post and said "I told you so". I am curious as to whether SY feels, overall and not just in the game to game review, that his earlier evaluation still holds true in toto and whether or not he feels Jones is irredeemable.
The question is how long do you give a QB to prove himself? That question is slightly different with Jones because statistically (and to many the eye test as well) he was a less effective player in his second year than first. Incremental growth, but growth all the same, changes the narrative. If you reverse how Jones looked in 2019 and 2020, I think you would see a lot more positive posts about his future. But his play got significantly worse from year 1 to year 2. That is why many people are down on him.
Jones will most likely improve from 2020 to 2021. If he doesn't I think they almost have to move on. But assuming he does improve, the question is how quickly, and what is his ceiling?
After next year the Giants need to feel pretty good about where he is and the progress he is making on whether to sign him longer term or even pick up his 5th year option, or they need to start thinking about Plan B. Unfortunately for him and us, he is likely going to do it on a team that is still lacking much in the way of weapons and protection on offense.
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but it's hard not to recall his evaluation of Jones coming out of Duke:
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I wanted to like Jones more than this, I really did. I have a thing for tough quarterbacks and I do think he brought his teammates to another level. That’s a trend that can really make a kid break out in the NFL. While I do have a 1st round grade on him and I do think he can be in play at 17 because of the position he plays, I think NYG may need to steer clear here. Jones has enough arm strength, touch, and athletic ability. But there isn’t a quick mind here, he doesn’t see everything a top tier QB does whether it is coverage or pass rush based.(emphasis added) After a long time scouting him, he is a pass for me.
After two years of NFL coaching, the main problems Sy identified still remain. And whatever improvement Jones showed in the final games, he still doesn't pass the eye test of a QB who moves naturally in the pocket. I do have a lot of respect for Judge, and I think he does believe in Jones, so we'll get another year for sure. But I worry he'll be our version of Mitch Trubisky. There's talent and enough playmaking ability to keep us intrigued, and because the organization grossly overdrafted him, it's hard to get an honest evaluation - so everyone keeps hoping for the great leap that just never comes and the team ends up in QB limbo.
Every single time we talk about Jones, someone brings up Sy's pre-draft review. Well, except Sy. Who is here. I have seen him criticize Jones in the game reviews, but to my knowledge, he himself has not re-posted this post and said "I told you so". I am curious as to whether SY feels, overall and not just in the game to game review, that his earlier evaluation still holds true in toto and whether or not he feels Jones is irredeemable.
Here Bill L. From Sy's Week 16 review:
"It is OK if you believe Jones is not the answer. It is OK if you think Jones is the answer. Nobody can objectively determine that right now. One thing we all can and should agree on: you don’t know. I don’t know. He doesn’t know. She doesn’t know. The kid has played TWENTY-FIVE games behind a bottom-5 offensive line, the worst set of receivers in football, a tight end who is among league leaders in drops, and a star running back who has missed 14 of 25 games in which Jones started. He needs to be better and I have been vocal about that. You can even argue NYG should start over at QB in the upcoming draft. But to say Jones and NYG should be better because he was the #6 pick (means almost nothing, do some research), or that Jones is a definitive bust, you just sound foolish. This kid has shown more in 25 games than SO MANY quality quarterbacks. That is a fact"
I don't think I see a revision between the scouting analysis in 2019 and the summary above. Only Sy knows and hopefully he will see this and respond, because I think Jones' primary struggles have been mental, not physical.
Sy said Jones needs to play better. He also said he doesn't know what he will or won't be. None of that seems to contradict what he said in the scouting report.
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I can get behind that. And, it seems somewhat revised from what people are posting his opinion as being.
I don't think I see a revision between the scouting analysis in 2019 and the summary above. Only Sy knows and hopefully he will see this and respond, because I think Jones' primary struggles have been mental, not physical.
Sy said Jones needs to play better. He also said he doesn't know what he will or won't be. None of that seems to contradict what he said in the scouting report.
I wish he would too. And, I do see a contradiction in that people re-post his analysis as this is what Jones is (and that's all he ever will be).
If Jones needs to play better, the question is what needs to get better? Decision making, accuracy, ball security?
In my mind I think it is primarily reading defenses and making decisions, which is why I think Sy's scouting report is still relevant.
So now you have to hope he's at least Jared Goff, and maybe a later blooming Matt Ryan...??
(although Ryan was pretty damn solid very early in his career...)
BBI either thinks that Jones sucks and should be replaced as quickly as possible, or that he's shown flashes of high quality play that will increase when he gets a few more weapons. I am in the latter category.
Giants receivers had the least separation of any in the NFL last year. Barkley was out for almost the whole season. The OL improved, but still had problems. Engram is maddeningly inconsistent.
BBI either thinks that Jones sucks and should be replaced as quickly as possible, or that he's shown flashes of high quality play that will increase when he gets a few more weapons. I am in the latter category.
Giants receivers had the least separation of any in the NFL last year. Barkley was out for almost the whole season. The OL improved, but still had problems. Engram is maddeningly inconsistent.
There is an argument to made that by simply having Saquon Barkley back on the field and Evan Engram off of it (no other changes whatsoever), Daniel Jones and the New York Giants will have a winning record next season.
The Giants would be a playoff team with Mahomes. We would be 10-6 or even 11-5 with Mahomes. The Giants were a good defensive team this year. There’s no comparison between Jones and Mahomes. Stop this nonsense.
And I'll ask the question again - if the surrounding talent and coaching are so poor then why the hell are Gettleman and Garrett still there?
The team clearly sucks, but it appears no one is at fault.
Not sure how Garrett comes into this discussion at this point... he's hampered the same way Jones is.
Why is Gettleman still here is a completely valid question.
Again, I'm not saying Jones is great or sucks. But the surrounding talent is really, really bad.