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Giants' trade proposal for Deshaun Watson by ESPN

Stan in LA : 1/27/2021 1:36 pm
From ESPN (along with 16 other trade proposals)
Quote:


17 Deshaun Watson trade proposals, ranked from least likely to most likely to happen in the 2021 NFL offseason

#12) New York Giants

Giants send: 11th overall pick in 2021, 2022 first-round pick, 2023 first-round pick, QB Daniel Jones
Texans send: 2023 fourth-round pick, QB Deshaun Watson

Jones showed virtually no growth in his second season, as his numbers stagnated or declined across the board. He missed two-plus games with injuries and led the league in fumbles for the second consecutive season. The best arguments that he's an NFL-caliber starting quarterback consist of his frame and the fact that at least one team thought he was worth the sixth overall pick in the 2019 draft. I'm not sure anybody is higher on Jones than the guy who would be trading him away, Giants general manager Dave Gettleman.

Jones is still young enough to improve, but he hasn't been good enough for the Texans to plan their future around him, which leaves the Giants in a bind. Would they be willing to send three first-rounders and Jones to get a deal done? And after seeing one former Pats coach sink his franchise, would Watson want to go play for another Bill Belichick disciple in Joe Judge?

Link - ( New Window )
No thanks  
JonC : 1/27/2021 1:41 pm : link
too steep for Watson. Very good QB, but we're shopping while starving on BBI as well as this proposal.
I guess you have to think of the cap ramifications too  
adamg : 1/27/2021 1:43 pm : link
E.g., would this mean no LW?
This is how you wind  
pjcas18 : 1/27/2021 1:46 pm : link
up in QB hell.

Watson has a mediocre team around him, Giants are 8 - 8 with no 1st round picks the next few years and then Watson is gone, your team sucks and you're forced to chase that elusive franchise QB.
Hell no  
Chris684 : 1/27/2021 1:47 pm : link
And I say that as someone who loved Watson out of the draft and generally love Watson the football player.

I don't know what is happening in Houston but I don't like this much noise around the QB.

Also, as good as he's been, there's still lots to prove in the way of durability and playoff performance.
That's probably what it would take  
widmerseyebrow : 1/27/2021 1:47 pm : link
Picking #11 means the Texans wouldn't be able to secure a replacement for Watson this year unless they make another move. We would have to outbid other teams that could either

A) send a better/more promising starter back or
B) trade a top 3 pick this draft which the Texans could then use to draft a replacement.
The story is still to be written on DJ given that he’s  
Big Blue '56 : 1/27/2021 1:47 pm : link
only a 25 game vet, but giving up all that equity is foolish, imv..

What happened to the mantra on here that said the Giants have too many holes to be giving away draft picks? Especially high ones.

No thanks
pass  
Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy : 1/27/2021 1:49 pm : link
I like Watson, good player but not as good as his stats imo and giving up that kind of draft capital would be too steep.
smh at people  
bc4life : 1/27/2021 1:49 pm : link
writing DJ off already
pj  
JonC : 1/27/2021 1:51 pm : link
Yep, not to mention Watson hasn't exactly elevated his team to great heights either. His recent vocal approach doesn't bode well either, in my view.
Nope. Judge is here to build a team.  
MOOPS : 1/27/2021 1:53 pm : link
You don't build a team without first round picks.
We're not a QB away from the Super Bowl.
Haha  
allstarjim : 1/27/2021 1:57 pm : link
Easy for ESPN to write this drivel because they'll never have to actually pull the trigger on one of these trades.

Three first rounders and Jones? For a 4th rounder and Watson.

You could drop a first rounder out of that deal and it still ain't happening.
as I said  
Producer : 1/27/2021 1:58 pm : link
on another thread.. yes.. it will take 3 first rounders. It's obviously. That's what it cost to get yourself an elite QB.

Let's put it another way. Would you give the last three Giants first rounders, (#2, #6 and #4) certainly a larger cost than their next three first rounders, for Watson. That would be Jones, Barkley and Thomas for Watson. If you say no, I think you aren't being realistic. Watson is most certainly worth those three players and more.
RE: Haha  
Producer : 1/27/2021 1:59 pm : link
In comment 15136044 allstarjim said:
Quote:
Easy for ESPN to write this drivel because they'll never have to actually pull the trigger on one of these trades.

Three first rounders and Jones? For a 4th rounder and Watson.

You could drop a first rounder out of that deal and it still ain't happening.


then I would suggest that you have an unrealistic understanding of the market.
I'd do it  
Go Terps : 1/27/2021 1:59 pm : link
The Giants aren't good at drafting. They've had five 1st rounders in the past three years - Barkley, Jones, Lawrence, Baker, Thomas - those five guys together don't add up to Watson.

It's a pipe dream anyway.
RE: smh at people  
Producer : 1/27/2021 1:59 pm : link
In comment 15136027 bc4life said:
Quote:
writing DJ off already


he's been awful.. maybe that's why.
So after this trade, Watson goes from a  
GiantsRage2007 : 1/27/2021 2:00 pm : link
Team with no talent and no draft picks to a team with no talent and .... no draft picks. Great.
If traded..  
BubbaMojo : 1/27/2021 2:02 pm : link
I think it will end up being 2 first rounders. Maybe a couple later round picks as well.

If that were true, I think I would pull the trigger.

RE: RE: Haha  
allstarjim : 1/27/2021 2:03 pm : link
In comment 15136046 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15136044 allstarjim said:


Quote:


Easy for ESPN to write this drivel because they'll never have to actually pull the trigger on one of these trades.

Three first rounders and Jones? For a 4th rounder and Watson.

You could drop a first rounder out of that deal and it still ain't happening.



then I would suggest that you have an unrealistic understanding of the market.


We'll see. You're not trading known quantities when you're trading several first round picks in the future. That's mortgaging your future and any team that would do such a trade I can nearly guarantee they will regret it. Perhaps a team that is 1 piece away it could work, like the Colts. And they aren't trading him to the Colts.
Yeah, who wants a 25 year old...  
bw in dc : 1/27/2021 2:03 pm : link
pro bowl, dual threat QB who has never had a bad season since he stepped on an NFL field.

It would be better to have Barkley  
widmerseyebrow : 1/27/2021 2:05 pm : link
in the package in lieu of one first rounder.
RE: It would be better to have Barkley  
bw in dc : 1/27/2021 2:14 pm : link
In comment 15136063 widmerseyebrow said:
Quote:
in the package in lieu of one first rounder.


Indeed. The injury/recovery likely makes it a non-starter...unfortunately.
great idea.  
Victor in CT : 1/27/2021 2:16 pm : link
if they want to suck for another 10 years. Watson would be begging to be traded again after year 1
Idiotic.  
AcidTest : 1/27/2021 2:19 pm : link
No way.
RE: Idiotic.  
Producer : 1/27/2021 2:23 pm : link
In comment 15136081 AcidTest said:
Quote:
No way.


ok then you don't get a great QB that can win a championship and you are stuck with a mediocrity that has no shot to win a title.
RE: Yeah, who wants a 25 year old...  
GiantEgo : 1/27/2021 2:23 pm : link
In comment 15136060 bw in dc said:
Quote:
pro bowl, dual threat QB who has never had a bad season since he stepped on an NFL field.


yeah he won all of 4 games this season. Apparently he can't do it alone therefore he must suck.
RE: RE: Yeah, who wants a 25 year old...  
bw in dc : 1/27/2021 2:26 pm : link
In comment 15136090 GiantEgo said:
Quote:
In comment 15136060 bw in dc said:


Quote:


pro bowl, dual threat QB who has never had a bad season since he stepped on an NFL field.




yeah he won all of 4 games this season. Apparently he can't do it alone therefore he must suck.


Why do you think Watson wants out? The organization imploded this year, on and off the field.

They win zero games without Watson this year, who played brilliantly.

Producer - awful?  
bc4life : 1/27/2021 2:27 pm : link
He's done some good things some bad, cost them a few games trying to force things, kept them in some games almost by himself. But, whatever
...  
Toth029 : 1/27/2021 2:30 pm : link
So no 1st round picks for this year and next few years as well.

For a QB that will do... what? Giants aren't in win now mode and his contract makes it more difficult to build up the rest plus you take in account no 1st rounder picks to alleviate the cap room issue.
Meaning  
Toth029 : 1/27/2021 2:33 pm : link
Watson throwing to stone hands Engram and these WR's is not gonna scare anyone.

I think people underestimate how good the Texans skill positions are. David Johnson got ripped apart and yeah he's overpaid, but still very good and a really good receiver. Prior to his injury, he was a top 3 RB.
RE: ...  
bw in dc : 1/27/2021 2:33 pm : link
In comment 15136100 Toth029 said:
Quote:
So no 1st round picks for this year and next few years as well.

For a QB that will do... what? Giants aren't in win now mode and his contract makes it more difficult to build up the rest plus you take in account no 1st rounder picks to alleviate the cap room issue.


christian has broken down the math, but the YR1 cap hit for the acquiring team would be $10M.

Then the out-years could be renegotiated.
I see  
Boatie Warrant : 1/27/2021 2:34 pm : link
So the Giants should trade away all their draft capital like the Texans have over the last couple of years so they can be as good as them.

Oh wait
I would do the trade in a heartbeat ...  
Jim from Katonah : 1/27/2021 2:38 pm : link
... I think Watson is a great player who you could win a SB with, and with Rodgers getting old, the NFC seems wide open. But it’s basically pointless to debate it too much b/c it’s not gonna happen lol.
RE: I see  
Big Blue '56 : 1/27/2021 2:44 pm : link
In comment 15136108 Boatie Warrant said:
Quote:
So the Giants should trade away all their draft capital like the Texans have over the last couple of years so they can be as good as them.

Oh wait


Yeah, I won’t bother anymore on this thread..
I read this earlier  
JoeyBigBlue : 1/27/2021 2:48 pm : link
I think it’s safe to say that Barnwell isn’t as high on Jones as many in BBI are.
RE: I read this earlier  
Producer : 1/27/2021 2:51 pm : link
In comment 15136121 JoeyBigBlue said:
Quote:
I think it’s safe to say that Barnwell isn’t as high on Jones as many in BBI are.


and Barnwell is a Giants fan.
Hard Pass  
Paulie Walnuts : 1/27/2021 2:51 pm : link
on this deal
I guess Watson is Tom Brady  
Carl in CT : 1/27/2021 2:54 pm : link
And giving you 7 championships. Wait didn’t he win 4 games?
The Texans went 4-12 last year because their defense collapsed ...  
Jim from Katonah : 1/27/2021 2:58 pm : link
... but they were 10-6 and 11-5 and in the playoffs his previous 2 seasons, and he’s already got a playoff win under his belt. He had a ridiculously great 2020 despite losing Hopkins ... and is only 25. The cascading effects of guys wanting to play with him as the best under 30 QB in the NFC ... rolling ahead with Watson and Saquon and a 2nd round WR pick and our rebuilt defense ... eh, never mind.
3 first round picks?  
cjac : 1/27/2021 2:58 pm : link
No thank you
posted about it last week  
UConn4523 : 1/27/2021 2:58 pm : link
that 3 firsts is what it would take but that I wouldn't do that. No thanks on this. I want an upgrade at QB (which could also be Jones improving) but not that bad.
Watson is worth 3 first round picks  
JoeyBigBlue : 1/27/2021 3:01 pm : link
He’s a 25 year old elite QB. Those are really really hard to come by.
I get and appreciate that he is a shining jewel  
Bill L : 1/27/2021 3:04 pm : link
I take bw and GT seriously at that.

But, they strongly believe that with this particular jewel, you can play 1 v 53, and I part ways with them on that.

You would have a jewel in the desert. At least, for nostalgia's sake we would have Manning back. Alas, it would be Archie.
RE: Watson is worth 3 first round picks  
Jim from Katonah : 1/27/2021 3:10 pm : link
In comment 15136140 JoeyBigBlue said:
Quote:
He’s a 25 year old elite QB. Those are really really hard to come by.


With real big game experience (two national title games v Bama, played great in both, won one) and already 3 playoff games for a dysfunctional team. Zero chance that Texans would do it but fun to dream.
If it was two first rounders  
illmatic : 1/27/2021 3:12 pm : link
I would consider it. I think Watson is that much better than Jones and the NFC east is right there for the taking the next few years. But 3 is pushing it a little too much for me.
elite and great  
JonC : 1/27/2021 3:13 pm : link
getting used too easily around here again.
RE: RE: Watson is worth 3 first round picks  
UConn4523 : 1/27/2021 3:14 pm : link
In comment 15136148 Jim from Katonah said:
Quote:
In comment 15136140 JoeyBigBlue said:


Quote:


He’s a 25 year old elite QB. Those are really really hard to come by.



With real big game experience (two national title games v Bama, played great in both, won one) and already 3 playoff games for a dysfunctional team. Zero chance that Texans would do it but fun to dream.


Why is there zero chance from the Texans side? If the relationship is that bad and Watson refuses to play, what choice do they have but to deal him?
RE: I see  
bw in dc : 1/27/2021 3:15 pm : link
In comment 15136108 Boatie Warrant said:
Quote:
So the Giants should trade away all their draft capital like the Texans have over the last couple of years so they can be as good as them.

Oh wait


So the assumption is that because the Texans traded away picks it can't be done? Hmmm.

The Rams traded away a lot of draft capital recently. How are they doing with a competent GM?
RE: I read this earlier  
lax counsel : 1/27/2021 3:16 pm : link
In comment 15136121 JoeyBigBlue said:
Quote:
I think it’s safe to say that Barnwell isn’t as high on Jones as many in BBI are.


Barnwell is a quality writer, and his evaluation is spot on. The only place that characterization of the current situation involving the Giants and their qb is the alternate BBI reality.
RE: RE: I read this earlier  
lax counsel : 1/27/2021 3:17 pm : link
In comment 15136157 lax counsel said:
Quote:
In comment 15136121 JoeyBigBlue said:


Quote:


I think it’s safe to say that Barnwell isn’t as high on Jones as many in BBI are.



Barnwell is a quality writer, and his evaluation is spot on. The only place that characterization of the current situation involving the Giants and their qb is the alternate BBI reality.


That should read the only place that characterization is not true...
RE: If it was two first rounders  
bw in dc : 1/27/2021 3:18 pm : link
In comment 15136150 illmatic said:
Quote:
I would consider it. I think Watson is that much better than Jones and the NFC east is right there for the taking the next few years. But 3 is pushing it a little too much for me.


I get that as a counter. It's a big basket. However, if we were to do well with Watson, then those out-year draft picks are lower in first round value, etc, etc.

Look, Terps summed it up well - this is a pipe dream. So this is just a big spit-ball session anyway.

It's just that you don't get many cracks at a player of this caliber. Watson is a tremendous QB.
whats the point  
Dankbeerman : 1/27/2021 3:18 pm : link
of getting the QB to not be able to add to the team for 3 years. Would just be spinning the wheels. We are not a QB away. would much rather have Jones and 3 1st rd picks
Plus his cap hit for the Giants in 2021 would be ...  
Jim from Katonah : 1/27/2021 3:19 pm : link
... only $10.5 million. It would massive in 2022, but you’d expect the cap to increase quite a bit by then post-covid.
Every time I hear talk like this ....  
Manny in CA : 1/27/2021 3:21 pm : link
I'm reminded of Trent Dilfer who won a Super Bowl for the Raven by just managing not to make too many mistakes.

Jones is way better than Dilfer ever was. Pass.
RE: RE: RE: Watson is worth 3 first round picks  
Jim from Katonah : 1/27/2021 3:22 pm : link
In comment 15136154 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 15136148 Jim from Katonah said:


Quote:


In comment 15136140 JoeyBigBlue said:


Quote:


He’s a 25 year old elite QB. Those are really really hard to come by.



With real big game experience (two national title games v Bama, played great in both, won one) and already 3 playoff games for a dysfunctional team. Zero chance that Texans would do it but fun to dream.



Why is there zero chance from the Texans side? If the relationship is that bad and Watson refuses to play, what choice do they have but to deal him?


I’d think a more nimble franchise would offer more.
RE: Every time I hear talk like this ....  
bw in dc : 1/27/2021 3:23 pm : link
In comment 15136164 Manny in CA said:
Quote:
I'm reminded of Trent Dilfer who won a Super Bowl for the Raven by just managing not to make too many mistakes.

Jones is way better than Dilfer ever was. Pass.


Well, that's a strange comp considering the Ravens had one of the all-time great defenses with Dilfer at QB.
RE: Every time I hear talk like this ....  
jestersdead : 1/27/2021 3:24 pm : link
In comment 15136164 Manny in CA said:
Quote:
I'm reminded of Trent Dilfer who won a Super Bowl for the Raven by just managing not to make too many mistakes.

Jones is way better than Dilfer ever was. Pass.

The Giants D is no where near the quality of the 200 Ravens.

Im all in on trading for Watson, he's a big upgrade over DJ. If DJ is the QB in 2021, its time to poop or get off the pot. And guess where that gets the Giants, back to square one and drafting another QB in the 2022 draft. But Trading for Watson and couple 1st round picks isn't worth it
Watson is an excellent QB and Jones will never be on his level  
Greg from LI : 1/27/2021 3:25 pm : link
But this roster is so full of holes that a deal like this just doesn't make sense.
2000 Ravens  
jestersdead : 1/27/2021 3:25 pm : link
in my post
RE: Watson is an excellent QB and Jones will never be on his level  
Go Terps : 1/27/2021 3:27 pm : link
In comment 15136172 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
But this roster is so full of holes that a deal like this just doesn't make sense.


Two thoughts on that:

1. Look at who is using the draft picks to fill the holes. I'd bet money our next three first round draft picks combined don't add up to Watson.

2. Watson could be on the market for a 7th rounder and the Giants wouldn't be interested.
Well, those are good points  
Greg from LI : 1/27/2021 3:29 pm : link
Anyway, this is all just ESPN creating content. As you say, the Giants would never do it anyway.
RE: Watson is an excellent QB and Jones will never be on his level  
bw in dc : 1/27/2021 3:30 pm : link
In comment 15136172 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
But this roster is so full of holes that a deal like this just doesn't make sense.


Well, assuming Gettleman is still the GM for a few more years, what is your confidence level he would make the most of those picks?

I'm okay with the "blind squirrel finding a nut" counter, btw... ;)
Hell no  
Jay on the Island : 1/27/2021 3:33 pm : link
I wouldn't give up all of that to move up this year to #1 to land Lawrence.

Giving up three consecutive years of 1st round picks plus the 6th overall pick from two years ago is a surefire way of having a poor team with little depth and lots of holes.
RE: elite and great  
Jim from Katonah : 1/27/2021 3:34 pm : link
In comment 15136153 JonC said:
Quote:
getting used too easily around here again.


Watson was one of the two best college players his last 2 seasons — led his team to two title games and won one in an epic game v Bama — has set numerous under 25 NFL passing/rushing combo records — has led two playoff runs on a dysfunctional franchise — and is ranked by his peers as the no. 20 overall player in the NFL. He’d be at worst the no. 3 QB in the NFC next year ... pretty close to elite but maybe great is premature. Maybe just “great start.”
Way too steep  
montanagiant : 1/27/2021 3:35 pm : link
Watson's a really good player but that is an absurd price to pay for a team in our position
LOL no thanks  
Saquads26 : 1/27/2021 3:42 pm : link
I'm sure he will just cry about ownership here too.
RE: Watson is worth 3 first round picks  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 1/27/2021 3:44 pm : link
In comment 15136140 JoeyBigBlue said:
Quote:
He’s a 25 year old elite QB. Those are really really hard to come by.


Bingo.
And thread over  
UConn4523 : 1/27/2021 3:44 pm : link
:(
I love this whole everything around me sucks  
Chris684 : 1/27/2021 3:44 pm : link
I must jump ship/switch allegiances approach that has pervaded sports/athletes since LeBron James.

Good thing the Union Army or Allied Forces didn't take that approach!

I don't know exactly what the issues are in Houston but I would venture a guess that much that has negatively impacted that franchise was brought on by Bill O'Brien the GM. Trading away picks and great players like hot cakes. So yea they may have to bite the bullet this year and next regarding the draft, but he's still young and still possible to crush the draft with few picks (see 2005 NYG draft).

It concerns me that Watson doesn't stand up and take ownership of that franchise. I also see no reason why we would ever give up that much for him even if we were to entertain the idea. #11, Jones and next year's 2nd? I dunno. Wouldn't give up much more.
.  
ghost718 : 1/27/2021 3:50 pm : link
RE: RE: elite and great  
JonC : 1/27/2021 3:51 pm : link
In comment 15136188 Jim from Katonah said:
Quote:
In comment 15136153 JonC said:


Quote:


getting used too easily around here again.



Watson was one of the two best college players his last 2 seasons — led his team to two title games and won one in an epic game v Bama — has set numerous under 25 NFL passing/rushing combo records — has led two playoff runs on a dysfunctional franchise — and is ranked by his peers as the no. 20 overall player in the NFL. He’d be at worst the no. 3 QB in the NFC next year ... pretty close to elite but maybe great is premature. Maybe just “great start.”


College means nothing now, he's off to a very promising start and has flashed at times. He's a very good NFL QB with room to grow. Maturity is a huge question mark. Three #1's and more is awfully steep, as you're gutting your draft abilities for a chunk of his prime.
3 things can be true  
ryanmkeane : 1/27/2021 3:53 pm : link
1) Jones will never be Watson
2) Giants giving up that much for Watson doesn't make sense
3) Jones can improve and become a really good QB, and we keep all of our assets
Bill O'Brien the GM was a huge failure  
JonC : 1/27/2021 3:53 pm : link
Their talent level and performance on the field went downhill accordingly. You could sense it from Watt as well, but he's tried to go about it differently, albeit still via the media.
RE: I'd do it  
map7711 : 1/27/2021 3:55 pm : link
In comment 15136049 Go Terps said:
Quote:
The Giants aren't good at drafting. They've had five 1st rounders in the past three years - Barkley, Jones, Lawrence, Baker, Thomas - those five guys together don't add up to Watson.

It's a pipe dream anyway.


Thankfully u r not the GM.
I think people are sleeping on Barkley  
adamg : 1/27/2021 3:57 pm : link
He's not a schmuck. He's an entire running back corps when he's healthy.
Tough choice  
compton : 1/27/2021 3:59 pm : link
I would toss in Barkley for one of the first round picks. So I would give up 2121 and 2023 first round picks plus DJ and Barkley.
RE: RE: RE: elite and great  
Jim from Katonah : 1/27/2021 4:00 pm : link
In comment 15136209 JonC said:
Quote:
In comment 15136188 Jim from Katonah said:


Quote:


In comment 15136153 JonC said:


Quote:


getting used too easily around here again.



Watson was one of the two best college players his last 2 seasons — led his team to two title games and won one in an epic game v Bama — has set numerous under 25 NFL passing/rushing combo records — has led two playoff runs on a dysfunctional franchise — and is ranked by his peers as the no. 20 overall player in the NFL. He’d be at worst the no. 3 QB in the NFC next year ... pretty close to elite but maybe great is premature. Maybe just “great start.”



College means nothing now, he's off to a very promising start and has flashed at times. He's a very good NFL QB with room to grow. Maturity is a huge question mark. Three #1's and more is awfully steep, as you're gutting your draft abilities for a chunk of his prime.


Fair enough. And you’re right, great is too much until he accomplishes more. But considering that Brees is gone, Rodgers is 37, Wilson is 32, and Lawrence is going to the AFC, doesn’t it intrigue you to get this kid at age 25? Could be a fun run ....
I was a fan  
RAIN : 1/27/2021 4:00 pm : link
of his. I watched some games and changed my opinion as he's gotten older, though not old. He leaves a lot of plays on the field, and isn't the type of leader that will thrive in the media scrutiny of this market. He can grow, but I project him being uncomfortable under the spotlight here and not a great fit.

That is a steep price for someone that is not a believer. We will see what the league wide opinion of him, behind the scenes and with whom is willing to take the risk.
RE: RE: I'd do it  
Go Terps : 1/27/2021 4:02 pm : link
In comment 15136216 map7711 said:
Quote:
In comment 15136049 Go Terps said:


Quote:


The Giants aren't good at drafting. They've had five 1st rounders in the past three years - Barkley, Jones, Lawrence, Baker, Thomas - those five guys together don't add up to Watson.

It's a pipe dream anyway.



Thankfully u r not the GM.


If I'd been the GM we'd have been better than 15-33 the last three years...and I'm just an asshole on a message board. That's how bad Gettleman's been.
I think it's too much to give up  
Mike from Ohio : 1/27/2021 4:02 pm : link
with essentially no other pieces in place. I think you are just changing the problem you have. Two firsts and Jones I would consider, but I don't think that gets it done.

If there were some pieces in place here and you were just missing a QB you do it in a heartbeat. Teams give up multiple picks to land guys at the top of the draft who are unknowns. You mitigate that risk by getting a guy who has been very good in the NFL for multiple years. But with no talent and no high picks - you are just bad for a different reason.

I don't like the idea of Jones having a three year audition because I don't think he has earned it, but that is the boat we are in now. Build the rest of the roster, and look for his replacement in the draft this year or next.

Watson makes sense for teams like the Colts or Steelers that have a solid team and lack the QB. That isn't the Giants.
Watson is quite the talent and Giants should be  
Jimmy Googs : 1/27/2021 4:04 pm : link
quietly putting together some type of proposal even if it goes no where.

But 3 first round picks plus Jones is way too rich. Could offer less and get the #1 pick this year and get a guy like Lawrence under a rookie deal.




RE: 3 things can be true  
Producer : 1/27/2021 4:07 pm : link
In comment 15136211 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
1) Jones will never be Watson
2) Giants giving up that much for Watson doesn't make sense
3) Jones can improve and become a really good QB, and we keep all of our assets


The first is true. Two isn't true. Three likely isn't true.
RE: RE: 3 things can be true  
Mike in NY : 1/27/2021 4:10 pm : link
In comment 15136227 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15136211 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


1) Jones will never be Watson
2) Giants giving up that much for Watson doesn't make sense
3) Jones can improve and become a really good QB, and we keep all of our assets



The first is true. Two isn't true. Three likely isn't true.


Maybe I should have you tell me all of the prop bets for next season to make now since you know everything that will transpire in the future.
RAIN  
JonC : 1/27/2021 4:12 pm : link
Yep, it's leaving a lot of plays on the field that catches the eye when you watch him play. Sometimes it appears to be issues reading the defense, taking off and running too early, or just misreading the flow.
RE: RE: RE: I'd do it  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/27/2021 4:20 pm : link
In comment 15136223 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15136216 map7711 said:


Quote:


In comment 15136049 Go Terps said:


Quote:


The Giants aren't good at drafting. They've had five 1st rounders in the past three years - Barkley, Jones, Lawrence, Baker, Thomas - those five guys together don't add up to Watson.

It's a pipe dream anyway.



Thankfully u r not the GM.



If I'd been the GM we'd have been better than 15-33 the last three years...and I'm just an asshole on a message board. That's how bad Gettleman's been.


That's basically the problem in a nutshell. You believe you'd do a better job - as if by default you're better.

And you use it as fact in almost all of your ramblings about how shitty the team is.

You have it all pegged - Garrett sucks. Gettleman sucks. Jones sucks. That kind of black and white thinking would sure work well in the GM position.......
The Giants have been picking  
compton : 1/27/2021 4:20 pm : link
high 7 times in the last 8 years. In spite of that the team can't seem to win more than 6 games. If the Giants give up their first round picks they still have 6+ picks each year plus free agents to build the team. A bird in hand (Watson) is worth two in the bush (first round draft picks).
RE: I was a fan  
bw in dc : 1/27/2021 4:22 pm : link
In comment 15136222 RAIN said:
Quote:
of his. I watched some games and changed my opinion as he's gotten older, though not old. He leaves a lot of plays on the field, and isn't the type of leader that will thrive in the media scrutiny of this market. He can grow, but I project him being uncomfortable under the spotlight here and not a great fit.

That is a steep price for someone that is not a believer. We will see what the league wide opinion of him, behind the scenes and with whom is willing to take the risk.


Who doesn't leave plays on the field? Think about how many plays he makes off-script where the called-in play wasn't going to work...

When is the last time you studied his numbers? I mean, and I'm not being a wise-ass, the output is excellent.

And this year was a real test losing Hopkins. Watson didn't miss a beat...
At the end of the day...  
bw in dc : 1/27/2021 4:26 pm : link
we can continue to keep our fingers crossed and hope this incremental approach with Jones works.

Because we don't know what we have with Jones. There are a lot of implied assumptions above that he's going to work out because of some special force/serendipty.

Meanwhile, while the asking price in the example is high, most of us know one clear thing - Watson is a great player at the most important position.
Where would Watson rank as a trade asset in the entire NFL?  
Jim from Katonah : 1/27/2021 4:29 pm : link
Considering his age, winning pedigree, and performance to date ... are there 5 guys in the NFL worth more to lock down for a 5 year run?

Mahomes, Josh Allen, maybe R Wilson, maybe L Jackson, Rodgers is 37 but possibly, maybe Kyler Murray, maybe Trevor Lawrence ... I don’t think anyone would pick N Bosa or anyone else over any of those guys. If GMs were picking players to build around, I bet Watson goes top 5. What’s that worth?
RE: RE: RE: 3 things can be true  
Saquads26 : 1/27/2021 4:30 pm : link
In comment 15136231 Mike in NY said:
Quote:
In comment 15136227 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15136211 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


1) Jones will never be Watson
2) Giants giving up that much for Watson doesn't make sense
3) Jones can improve and become a really good QB, and we keep all of our assets



The first is true. Two isn't true. Three likely isn't true.



Maybe I should have you tell me all of the prop bets for next season to make now since you know everything that will transpire in the future.


His act is old at this point, yawn. Broken record
If I'm including Jones ...  
FStubbs : 1/27/2021 4:31 pm : link
... there's now way I'm ALSO including 3 first rounders. That's too steep.
RE: RE: Every time I hear talk like this ....  
Bill L : 1/27/2021 4:32 pm : link
In comment 15136169 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15136164 Manny in CA said:


Quote:


I'm reminded of Trent Dilfer who won a Super Bowl for the Raven by just managing not to make too many mistakes.

Jones is way better than Dilfer ever was. Pass.



Well, that's a strange comp considering the Ravens had one of the all-time great defenses with Dilfer at QB.


There's irony here since you're willing to sacrifice all of that to bring Watson in.
RE: RE: RE: I'd do it  
Bill L : 1/27/2021 4:34 pm : link
In comment 15136223 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15136216 map7711 said:


Quote:


In comment 15136049 Go Terps said:


Quote:


The Giants aren't good at drafting. They've had five 1st rounders in the past three years - Barkley, Jones, Lawrence, Baker, Thomas - those five guys together don't add up to Watson.

It's a pipe dream anyway.



Thankfully u r not the GM.



If I'd been the GM we'd have been better than 15-33 the last three years...and I'm just an asshole on a message board. That's how bad Gettleman's been.


I get the feeling that you're channeling Mike Lynn. I don't believe in reincarnation, but...
The point for teams in the NFL  
pjcas18 : 1/27/2021 4:36 pm : link
is not to get a better QB. It's to build a better team.

That trade proposal accomplishes the former, but hinders the latter.
wow Watson now a hybrid of Brady Montana Unitas Rodgers  
Victor in CT : 1/27/2021 4:39 pm : link
and Staubach all rolled into one. Amazing.

Love the Mike Lynn analogy Bill L. Spot on.
Maybe Watson is worth 3 first rounders & Jones, but even so  
Marty in Albany : 1/27/2021 4:44 pm : link
the Giants are not one superstar short of a championship, or even one superstar short of being a good team.

I think we need about a dozen, or more GOOD players--NFL caliber players, not superstars, before we can consider ourselves to be a good team.

The Giants need to figure out how to convert their draft choices into A LOT of guys who can pull their own weight rather than get just one player. When John ("Jack") Mara trades his cow for a bunch of beans, they don't turn into a Giants beanstalk overnight. They just lay there.
RE: The point for teams in the NFL  
Producer : 1/27/2021 4:44 pm : link
In comment 15136264 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
is not to get a better QB. It's to build a better team.

That trade proposal accomplishes the former, but hinders the latter.


you are totally mistaken. The point of the new NFL, the game within the game, is to get a better QB above all else, because this is more of a QB league than ever before. Look at the teams in the final 8. Look at the semis. Look at the Super Bowl matchup. It's the teams with the best QBs. I know you guys want to squabble over this LB prospect and that TE prospect... great teams get their QB - period. When Mahomes came out Andy Reid had a perfectly fine QB in Alex Smith, he traded him in for Mahomes and went from a good team to a champion. The Saints were going to add Mahomes if he fell to them and Drew Brees was breaking records. Wise up. QB is most of the reason the successful teams are successful.
RE: RE: The point for teams in the NFL  
Bill L : 1/27/2021 4:45 pm : link
In comment 15136276 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15136264 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


is not to get a better QB. It's to build a better team.

That trade proposal accomplishes the former, but hinders the latter.



you are totally mistaken. The point of the new NFL, the game within the game, is to get a better QB above all else, because this is more of a QB league than ever before. Look at the teams in the final 8. Look at the semis. Look at the Super Bowl matchup. It's the teams with the best QBs. I know you guys want to squabble over this LB prospect and that TE prospect... great teams get their QB - period. When Mahomes came out Andy Reid had a perfectly fine QB in Alex Smith, he traded him in for Mahomes and went from a good team to a champion. The Saints were going to add Mahomes if he fell to them and Drew Brees was breaking records. Wise up. QB is most of the reason the successful teams are successful.

Spot on! +1000.

I knew Tyreke ain't worth shit.
RE: wow Watson now a hybrid of Brady Montana Unitas Rodgers  
Jim from Katonah : 1/27/2021 4:47 pm : link
In comment 15136268 Victor in CT said:
Quote:
and Staubach all rolled into one. Amazing.

Love the Mike Lynn analogy Bill L. Spot on.


Just for fun, say you are picking players to start an NFL franchise. Who would you pick over 25 year old Watson? It gets kind of tough after Mahomes, and maybe Allen, doesn’t it?
RE: RE: wow Watson now a hybrid of Brady Montana Unitas Rodgers  
Bill L : 1/27/2021 4:48 pm : link
In comment 15136281 Jim from Katonah said:
Quote:
In comment 15136268 Victor in CT said:


Quote:


and Staubach all rolled into one. Amazing.

Love the Mike Lynn analogy Bill L. Spot on.



Just for fun, say you are picking players to start an NFL franchise. Who would you pick over 25 year old Watson? It gets kind of tough after Mahomes, and maybe Allen, doesn’t it?


But you're only getting one pick.
RE: RE: The point for teams in the NFL  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/27/2021 4:50 pm : link
In comment 15136276 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15136264 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


is not to get a better QB. It's to build a better team.

That trade proposal accomplishes the former, but hinders the latter.



you are totally mistaken. The point of the new NFL, the game within the game, is to get a better QB above all else, because this is more of a QB league than ever before. Look at the teams in the final 8. Look at the semis. Look at the Super Bowl matchup. It's the teams with the best QBs. I know you guys want to squabble over this LB prospect and that TE prospect... great teams get their QB - period. When Mahomes came out Andy Reid had a perfectly fine QB in Alex Smith, he traded him in for Mahomes and went from a good team to a champion. The Saints were going to add Mahomes if he fell to them and Drew Brees was breaking records. Wise up. QB is most of the reason the successful teams are successful.


Is it really?? This thread is about Watson being a top QB. where is he without a decent team behind him? Where has Matthew Stafford gone? What did Philip Rivers get??

The QB being the end all conversation fails a little when Jimmy G made the SB last season. When Nick Foles hoisted a trophy. When Jared Goff took the field. Those are all in the past three years!!

Hell, Eli Manning has as many SB titles as Rodgers and Favre combined.

The point for teams is still to construct a strong team. At least one dominant unit.
How many Super Bowls  
LauderdaleMatty : 1/27/2021 4:51 pm : link
Do Dan Marino and Dan Fouts have? Aaron Rodgers has one.

Beyond stupid trade for a guy who hasn't won shit
RE: RE: The point for teams in the NFL  
Mike in NY : 1/27/2021 4:52 pm : link
In comment 15136276 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15136264 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


is not to get a better QB. It's to build a better team.

That trade proposal accomplishes the former, but hinders the latter.



you are totally mistaken. The point of the new NFL, the game within the game, is to get a better QB above all else, because this is more of a QB league than ever before. Look at the teams in the final 8. Look at the semis. Look at the Super Bowl matchup. It's the teams with the best QBs. I know you guys want to squabble over this LB prospect and that TE prospect... great teams get their QB - period. When Mahomes came out Andy Reid had a perfectly fine QB in Alex Smith, he traded him in for Mahomes and went from a good team to a champion. The Saints were going to add Mahomes if he fell to them and Drew Brees was breaking records. Wise up. QB is most of the reason the successful teams are successful.


Yes the teams in the Conference Championships all had great QB's, but the teams that WON those games were the more complete teams overall. Rodgers is probably a better QB than 43 year old Tom Brady, but ultimately did not win the game because of his defense and the fact that when the game was on the line his only reliable options were Davante Adams and Robert Tonyan. To paraphase Belichik,"this is still a [Tonyan] and [Adams] game - make them go to [Lazard], make them go to [St. Brown]." The playcalling did not do them any favors, but somebody else needed to step up and it just was not there. Green Bay's management doubles down on that by using their top 2 picks on a back-up QB and a third-string RB (who rarely saw the field). I think if Green Bay had Aiyuk, Higgins, or Pittman as their WR2, they win against Tampa.
RE: RE: RE: wow Watson now a hybrid of Brady Montana Unitas Rodgers  
Victor in CT : 1/27/2021 4:55 pm : link
In comment 15136285 Bill L said:
Quote:
In comment 15136281 Jim from Katonah said:


Quote:


In comment 15136268 Victor in CT said:


Quote:


and Staubach all rolled into one. Amazing.

Love the Mike Lynn analogy Bill L. Spot on.



Just for fun, say you are picking players to start an NFL franchise. Who would you pick over 25 year old Watson? It gets kind of tough after Mahomes, and maybe Allen, doesn’t it?



But you're only getting one pick.


and as a new franchise your not trading any picks to get him, and you have a full cap allotment and all your future picks in hand.
RE: How many Super Bowls  
bw in dc : 1/27/2021 4:57 pm : link
In comment 15136288 LauderdaleMatty said:
Quote:
Do Dan Marino and Dan Fouts have? Aaron Rodgers has one.



But you need to be in the hunt to compete for the biggest prize. And those QBs were/are usually in the hunt. Right?
RE: RE: How many Super Bowls  
Bill L : 1/27/2021 4:59 pm : link
In comment 15136295 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15136288 LauderdaleMatty said:


Quote:


Do Dan Marino and Dan Fouts have? Aaron Rodgers has one.





But you need to be in the hunt to compete for the biggest prize. And those QBs were/are usually in the hunt. Right?


I can't recall that far back. Were they always in the hunt. Also, serious question because I really can' recall circumstances; how did SD with Drew Brees (1st ballot guy) have the Eli pick?
RE: RE: How many Super Bowls  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/27/2021 5:01 pm : link
In comment 15136295 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15136288 LauderdaleMatty said:


Quote:


Do Dan Marino and Dan Fouts have? Aaron Rodgers has one.





But you need to be in the hunt to compete for the biggest prize. And those QBs were/are usually in the hunt. Right?


Depends what usually means.

Dan Fouts made the playoffs 4 times. The only years they finished 1st or 2nd in their division. For reference, they finished last 5 times while he was there.

Fouts would be considered a massive failure by you if he were a Giant.
3 number 1s and Jones is too steep  
Thegratefulhead : 1/27/2021 5:02 pm : link
Don't care if they end up getting more. I would do 2 1's and Jones, no more. Watson is a stud.
I'll check...  
bw in dc : 1/27/2021 5:03 pm : link
but I know San Diego was very formidable in the West with the Raiders for 4-5 years. Made the '81 AFCC in the brutal cold of Cincy.

Miami with Marino got the '85 SB v the 9ers and Montana. And seemed to always be lurking in the playoffs but struggled with the right D and running game. But I'll have to check.

And Rodgers speaks for himself.
RE: RE: RE: How many Super Bowls  
LauderdaleMatty : 1/27/2021 5:04 pm : link
In comment 15136297 Bill L said:
Quote:
In comment 15136295 bw in dc said:


Quote:


In comment 15136288 LauderdaleMatty said:


Quote:


Do Dan Marino and Dan Fouts have? Aaron Rodgers has one.





But you need to be in the hunt to compete for the biggest prize. And those QBs were/are usually in the hunt. Right?



I can't recall that far back. Were they always in the hunt. Also, serious question because I really can' recall circumstances; how did SD with Drew Brees (1st ballot guy) have the Eli pick?


My point is two of the best QBs ever didn't win a SB and while on some good teams didn't really challenge for a SB much.

SD was a mess. And I don't think. Brees played much at all that year
Fouts was..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/27/2021 5:04 pm : link
the QB 14 years. He lost a year to injury.

Made the playoffs 4 times.
Finished last in the division 5 times.
Finished next to last 5 times.
RE: 3 number 1s and Jones is too steep  
bw in dc : 1/27/2021 5:05 pm : link
In comment 15136300 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
Don't care if they end up getting more. I would do 2 1's and Jones, no more. Watson is a stud.


Yeah, I think more posters would vote "aye" on that instead...

Brees didn't start  
LauderdaleMatty : 1/27/2021 5:06 pm : link
His rookie year. Doug Flutie started all the games

And I'm willing to bet that Watson will never be as a good a QB as Fouts
RE: Fouts was..  
bw in dc : 1/27/2021 5:08 pm : link
In comment 15136304 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
the QB 14 years. He lost a year to injury.

Made the playoffs 4 times.
Finished last in the division 5 times.
Finished next to last 5 times.


Wasn't most of that pre-Coryell?
KC is a good example but not a good comparison  
pjcas18 : 1/27/2021 5:08 pm : link
because to trade up for Mahomes only cost KC their current 1st swap (#27 for #10 (Mahomes)) a 3rd (#91) and 2018 1st which you knew would be late-ish (22).

So, in that case to move up from 27 to 10 and get Mahomes (a better QB than Watson) cost just a 3rd and next year's 1st realistically.

KC already had Kelce, Hill (two of the best in the NFL at their position) and solid pieces elsewhere.

Price matters.

What the OP suggested the Giants do to get Watson would cost:

pick #11, two more 1st's and Daniel Jones and the Giants don't already have the core in place that KC did making it hard to surround Watson with winning talent. Plus Watson has a high $$$ contract unlike Mahomes at the time to allow KC to build in other areas (Marcus Peters, Frank Clark, Tyrann Mathieu, etc.)

At some point the cost to get the QB prevents you from being competitive. Add to it the cost to pay the QB makes it even harder since he's not on a rookie deal.

And the cost in the OP IMO is too steep for the Giants to overcome (without a shit load of luck) and as they say in my business hope and luck isn't a strategy.
remember that time  
djm : 1/27/2021 5:09 pm : link
the giants traded too much for ELi Manning.

Worked out just fine. Just saying.

Jones did show growth this season. HE won more games than he did in year 1. That counts, even if it's slight.
RE: RE: Fouts was..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/27/2021 5:12 pm : link
In comment 15136308 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15136304 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


the QB 14 years. He lost a year to injury.

Made the playoffs 4 times.
Finished last in the division 5 times.
Finished next to last 5 times.



Wasn't most of that pre-Coryell?


With Fouts/Coryell - went to the playoffs 4 times. Finished 4th or 5th in the division 4 times.

I'm not sure why that distinction is made. Great QB's rise above and elevate the team, right?
Who said coaching...  
bw in dc : 1/27/2021 5:15 pm : link
isn't an important variable in the winning process?
RE: remember that time  
pjcas18 : 1/27/2021 5:17 pm : link
In comment 15136310 djm said:
Quote:
the giants traded too much for ELi Manning.

Worked out just fine. Just saying.

Jones did show growth this season. HE won more games than he did in year 1. That counts, even if it's slight.


Some people just can't comprehend the difference between QB's on rookie deals and veteran QB contracts.

Or maybe you can and I missed it.

Trades change things, but Watson's cap hits:

2021 $15M
2022 $40.4M
2023 $42.4M
2024 $34.7M
2025 $32M

A trade accelerates the guarantees, but Jones cap hits:

2021: $7M
2022: $8.3M

People will say "you can always create cap space"

sure, but at a cost, this is not a good trade for the Giants unless the goal is upgrade QB. This would end poorly.

I hope the Jets or WFT does it, not the Giants.
Watson's '21...  
bw in dc : 1/27/2021 5:24 pm : link
cap hit is $10M+.
RE: remember that time  
Mike from Ohio : 1/27/2021 5:24 pm : link
In comment 15136310 djm said:
Quote:
the giants traded too much for ELi Manning.

Worked out just fine. Just saying.

Jones did show growth this season. HE won more games than he did in year 1. That counts, even if it's slight.


There is always a point at which the cost becomes too much. The Giants almost didn't complete that trade because Accrosi wouldn't include Osi in the deal.

The Giants gave up a lot, but they did not just give up whatever it took.
RE: Watson's '21...  
bw in dc : 1/27/2021 5:26 pm : link
In comment 15136325 bw in dc said:
Quote:
cap hit is $10M+.


For the acquiring team in a trade...that is.
RE: RE: RE: How many Super Bowls  
Jim from Katonah : 1/27/2021 5:31 pm : link
In comment 15136299 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
In comment 15136295 bw in dc said:


Quote:


In comment 15136288 LauderdaleMatty said:


Quote:


Do Dan Marino and Dan Fouts have? Aaron Rodgers has one.





But you need to be in the hunt to compete for the biggest prize. And those QBs were/are usually in the hunt. Right?



Depends what usually means.

Dan Fouts made the playoffs 4 times. The only years they finished 1st or 2nd in their division. For reference, they finished last 5 times while he was there.

Fouts would be considered a massive failure by you if he were a Giant.


You’re not really comparing Watson and his winning pedigree and outlook to Foles and Garrapolo are you? You think he’s just another QB? C’mon, he’s a burgeoning young superstar who could give you a leg up on the rest of the NFC for the next 5 years or more.
RE: Watson's '21...  
pjcas18 : 1/27/2021 5:35 pm : link
In comment 15136325 bw in dc said:
Quote:
cap hit is $10M+.


So you think the Giants with Watson, no 1st or 3rd, and needing to cut people to create cap space are contenders?

because after 2021 his cap # increase significantly.

Quote:
...For the team trading for Watson, the situation is slightly different. Watson would count just $10.54 million against their salary cap in 2021. That number would rise significantly in 2022 to $35 million and again to $37 million in 2023 before decreasing slightly to $32 million in each of the final two years of his contract. The hopes are that the league will be closer to normal circumstances in the 2021 season than they did in 2020. Therefore, the cap in 2022 and 2023 would be expected to rise above the 2021 figure, giving more flexibility to teams in the future....
RE: 3 things can be true  
eric2425ny : 1/27/2021 5:37 pm : link
In comment 15136211 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
1) Jones will never be Watson
2) Giants giving up that much for Watson doesn't make sense
3) Jones can improve and become a really good QB, and we keep all of our assets


This. Watson is a very good QB, but he hasn’t won anything. Why do some people on here think this is a good idea? So he goes from one crappy team to another one that now has no first round picks for the next few years. We’re not a QB away from winning. We need all the draft picks we can get.
RE: Fouts was..  
Thegratefulhead : 1/27/2021 5:37 pm : link
In comment 15136304 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
the QB 14 years. He lost a year to injury.

Made the playoffs 4 times.
Finished last in the division 5 times.
Finished next to last 5 times.
That division was among the best in football when Fouts played. A number of SB appearances and some wins by the Raiders.
RE: RE: Yeah, who wants a 25 year old...  
santacruzom : 1/27/2021 5:46 pm : link
In comment 15136090 GiantEgo said:
Quote:
In comment 15136060 bw in dc said:


Quote:


pro bowl, dual threat QB who has never had a bad season since he stepped on an NFL field.




yeah he won all of 4 games this season. Apparently he can't do it alone therefore he must suck.


Yeah, but some of those losses were so close that, if they'd been Giants losses, many on here would be saying they were virtually wins.
I am not sure why  
lax counsel : 1/27/2021 5:46 pm : link
Drafting or trading (very rarely happens) for an elite qb precludes a team from continuing to add quality players. I do not think anyone here advocating for finding an elite qb, is also suggesting to stop adding quality players.

I am also not sure how bringing up qbs from the early 2000s (who never won squat again) or from the 70s/80s has any relevance to the current NFL? You might as well be comparing the modern NFL to cage fighting, it is a completely different game now that favors offensive explosiveness - generally spearheaded by top qbs.
The Chargers' defense was also lousy for most of Fouts' career  
Greg from LI : 1/27/2021 5:50 pm : link
Much like Marino had to contend with.
PFFFFFFFT  
jnoble : 1/27/2021 5:51 pm : link
Looks like smoking weed while working at ESPN is now permitted

*THREE* 1st round picks and Jones who was one himself???

GTFO, ESPN! LOL
RE: RE: Watson's '21...  
bw in dc : 1/27/2021 5:53 pm : link
In comment 15136334 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
In comment 15136325 bw in dc said:


Quote:


cap hit is $10M+.



So you think the Giants with Watson, no 1st or 3rd, and needing to cut people to create cap space are contenders?

because after 2021 his cap # increase significantly.



Quote:


...For the team trading for Watson, the situation is slightly different. Watson would count just $10.54 million against their salary cap in 2021. That number would rise significantly in 2022 to $35 million and again to $37 million in 2023 before decreasing slightly to $32 million in each of the final two years of his contract. The hopes are that the league will be closer to normal circumstances in the 2021 season than they did in 2020. Therefore, the cap in 2022 and 2023 would be expected to rise above the 2021 figure, giving more flexibility to teams in the future....



Yes, I think Watson would make the Giants contenders because that biggest piece of the puzzle is solved. But I concede other hard work would need to be done. So the GM would have to be on their "A game" to figure it out...but that is their job description, right?

And, yes, the out-years of Watson's contract are higher, but you would have to re-negotiate those to alleviate some of the cap strain.
RE: I am not sure why  
pjcas18 : 1/27/2021 5:54 pm : link
In comment 15136345 lax counsel said:
Quote:
Drafting or trading (very rarely happens) for an elite qb precludes a team from continuing to add quality players. I do not think anyone here advocating for finding an elite qb, is also suggesting to stop adding quality players.

I am also not sure how bringing up qbs from the early 2000s (who never won squat again) or from the 70s/80s has any relevance to the current NFL? You might as well be comparing the modern NFL to cage fighting, it is a completely different game now that favors offensive explosiveness - generally spearheaded by top qbs.


the salary cap makes it difficult to absorb the contract of a veteran QB (like Watson) and add quality players.

Giants need to re-sign Williams and/or Tomlinson just to keep the D as good as last year. And then they don't have a 1st round pick. Need WR's a TE, another CB, you are hamstringing the team from improving by both trading premium draft picks and paying the QB so much.

this is not a good trade for the Giants.
RE: RE: I am not sure why  
lax counsel : 1/27/2021 5:57 pm : link
In comment 15136356 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
In comment 15136345 lax counsel said:


Quote:


Drafting or trading (very rarely happens) for an elite qb precludes a team from continuing to add quality players. I do not think anyone here advocating for finding an elite qb, is also suggesting to stop adding quality players.

I am also not sure how bringing up qbs from the early 2000s (who never won squat again) or from the 70s/80s has any relevance to the current NFL? You might as well be comparing the modern NFL to cage fighting, it is a completely different game now that favors offensive explosiveness - generally spearheaded by top qbs.



the salary cap makes it difficult to absorb the contract of a veteran QB (like Watson) and add quality players.

Giants need to re-sign Williams and/or Tomlinson just to keep the D as good as last year. And then they don't have a 1st round pick. Need WR's a TE, another CB, you are hamstringing the team from improving by both trading premium draft picks and paying the QB so much.


this is not a good trade for the Giants.


Fair enough, its a legit point. I think it makes drafting critical. And makes the early years of an elite qb contract critical.
RE: The Chargers' defense was also lousy for most of Fouts' career  
bw in dc : 1/27/2021 5:57 pm : link
In comment 15136353 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
Much like Marino had to contend with.


That ice bowl-like game they played in Cincinnati in '81 for the AFC Championship was a killer for them. They beat Miami the week prior in 80 degree weather. So they went from that to minus 30.

But that was a very good team.
...  
christian : 1/27/2021 6:15 pm : link
The Giants aren’t trading three 1st round picks and Jones. But Watson’s contract is absolutely not an issue. The remainder of his deal with Houston would be easily restructured to balance out the cap hits.
That trade  
PaulN : 1/27/2021 6:21 pm : link
Would be the stupidest trade in NFL history. If he is so great what happened to the Texans while this superstar didn't even cost very much, he will do good with a good team, he will not win with a lousy team, and I don't care whate his numbers are, what was the teams record? Shows how these talk shows and their tom foolary influence people who are clueless anyway.
RE: whats the point  
AcidTest : 1/27/2021 6:23 pm : link
In comment 15136161 Dankbeerman said:
Quote:
of getting the QB to not be able to add to the team for 3 years. Would just be spinning the wheels. We are not a QB away. would much rather have Jones and 3 1st rd picks


^This.
RE: ...  
eric2425ny : 1/27/2021 6:24 pm : link
In comment 15136371 christian said:
Quote:
The Giants aren’t trading three 1st round picks and Jones. But Watson’s contract is absolutely not an issue. The remainder of his deal with Houston would be easily restructured to balance out the cap hits.


Agree with you on this. If the Giants were a QB away, which is essentially where we were when we made the Eli trade I’d be tempted by it. But we need 1-2 WR’s, a TE, possibly a RG, possibly a RT, to resign at least one of LW and Tomlinson, another corner. I mean that’s a lot of needs to consider trading away three years of first round picks.
RE: RE: ...  
christian : 1/27/2021 6:32 pm : link
In comment 15136383 eric2425ny said:
Quote:
Agree with you on this. If the Giants were a QB away, which is essentially where we were when we made the Eli trade I’d be tempted by it. But we need 1-2 WR’s, a TE, possibly a RG, possibly a RT, to resign at least one of LW and Tomlinson, another corner. I mean that’s a lot of needs to consider trading away three years of first round picks.


I’d happily trade the 11th pick, 43rd pick, Jones, and any other player on the team Houston wanted (Bradberry, Lawrence, Barkley).

But then you need to start building the team around Watson, and 2 more number ones is too much.
Seems like the big majority here ...  
Jim from Katonah : 1/27/2021 6:33 pm : link
... wouldn’t do this (hypothetical not gonna happen anyway) trade. The good news for this majority is that the Jints will almost certainly take their preferred approach and keep building around Jones. Maybe with a top
10-15 Graham defense, continued development of the young OL, the return of Saquon, and the addition of some real weapons from some combo of the draft/FA that 2021 will be better. Not sure the NFC East has ever been weaker, fingers crossed Jones flourishes.
RE: RE: RE: ...  
Producer : 1/27/2021 6:38 pm : link
In comment 15136388 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 15136383 eric2425ny said:


Quote:


Agree with you on this. If the Giants were a QB away, which is essentially where we were when we made the Eli trade I’d be tempted by it. But we need 1-2 WR’s, a TE, possibly a RG, possibly a RT, to resign at least one of LW and Tomlinson, another corner. I mean that’s a lot of needs to consider trading away three years of first round picks.



I’d happily trade the 11th pick, 43rd pick, Jones, and any other player on the team Houston wanted (Bradberry, Lawrence, Barkley).

But then you need to start building the team around Watson, and 2 more number ones is too much.


well nobody wants our spare parts and damaged goods. We over-rate Barkley, other teams don't. They will want three #1s and a smart team will give it to them because the opportunity to get a top-6 QB is rare.
Too steep for my liking.......  
Simms11 : 1/27/2021 6:48 pm : link
Need to build through the draft and not take away our ability to do so. That said, DJ gets one more year with a set of weapons. If he can’t show that he belongs, then you need to consider drafting another QB in 2022, it’s that simple. There’s a few good QBs coming out in 2022, as well.
RE: RE: whats the point  
compton : 1/27/2021 6:50 pm : link
In comment 15136381 AcidTest said:
Quote:
In comment 15136161 Dankbeerman said:


Quote:


of getting the QB to not be able to add to the team for 3 years. Would just be spinning the wheels. We are not a QB away. would much rather have Jones and 3 1st rd picks



^This.


How is not having a first round pick means the team wouldn't be able to add talent? That's crazy talk.
RE: Too steep for my liking.......  
Jim from Katonah : 1/27/2021 6:52 pm : link
In comment 15136399 Simms11 said:
Quote:
Need to build through the draft and not take away our ability to do so. That said, DJ gets one more year with a set of weapons. If he can’t show that he belongs, then you need to consider drafting another QB in 2022, it’s that simple. There’s a few good QBs coming out in 2022, as well.


That would push our ability to compete into what, 2024, 2025, assuming we drafted the right one? Meh what’s a decade between friends. Fingers crossed on Jones ....
RE: RE: RE: RE: ...  
christian : 1/27/2021 6:53 pm : link
In comment 15136394 Producer said:
Quote:
well nobody wants our spare parts and damaged goods. We over-rate Barkley, other teams don't. They will want three #1s and a smart team will give it to them because the opportunity to get a top-6 QB is rare.


I don't think Houston would accept that trade, but I also don't think Houston gets 3 no. 1's and a former top 10 pick.

Watson gets to pick his destination and the team has to be willing to pay. Houston doesn't have a ton of leverage.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: ...  
Jim from Katonah : 1/27/2021 7:07 pm : link
In comment 15136404 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 15136394 Producer said:


Quote:


well nobody wants our spare parts and damaged goods. We over-rate Barkley, other teams don't. They will want three #1s and a smart team will give it to them because the opportunity to get a top-6 QB is rare.



I don't think Houston would accept that trade, but I also don't think Houston gets 3 no. 1's and a former top 10 pick.

Watson gets to pick his destination and the team has to be willing to pay. Houston doesn't have a ton of leverage.


Most folks see the risk of acquiring a top QB just starting his prime in the assets we give up and his cap hit. I see the risk in Jones himself, who if he doesn’t develop into a top QB will leave us in limbo and maybe back to drafting a QB again or overpaying for a FA (see eg the Bears).
holy cr@p  
gidiefor : Mod : 1/27/2021 7:42 pm : link
if the Giants did this -- I'm pretty sure I would give up on them
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: ...  
Saquads26 : 1/27/2021 7:45 pm : link
In comment 15136404 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 15136394 Producer said:


Quote:


well nobody wants our spare parts and damaged goods. We over-rate Barkley, other teams don't. They will want three #1s and a smart team will give it to them because the opportunity to get a top-6 QB is rare.



I don't think Houston would accept that trade, but I also don't think Houston gets 3 no. 1's and a former top 10 pick.

Watson gets to pick his destination and the team has to be willing to pay. Houston doesn't have a ton of leverage.


Neither does Watson
Dave Gettleman  
SleepyOwl : 1/27/2021 7:52 pm : link
Had an opportunity to draft Josh Allen, Lamar Jackson, Justin Herbert and Tua T. Now you are asking him to trade 3 first round picks AND the guy he selected 6th overall.... this trade would undisputedly reaffirm the disaster this man has been as a GM. It’s the right trade except he’d have to admit to himself what a shit show he has been before he does and that my friends will never happen.

Only hope for now is Daniel Jones. If. Daniel has another year like he had this year; he and Getty are out.
RE: Dave Gettleman  
Bill L : 1/27/2021 7:59 pm : link
In comment 15136442 SleepyOwl said:
Quote:
Had an opportunity to draft Josh Allen, Lamar Jackson, Justin Herbert and Tua T. Now you are asking him to trade 3 first round picks AND the guy he selected 6th overall.... this trade would undisputedly reaffirm the disaster this man has been as a GM. It’s the right trade except he’d have to admit to himself what a shit show he has been before he does and that my friends will never happen.

Only hope for now is Daniel Jones. If. Daniel has another year like he had this year; he and Getty are out.


Personally, I think it would be a foolish trade on its own that would do more harm to the future of the team than good. But, I just think that; I don’t *know* it. But I do know that DG would not give a rats ass about looking like anything or admitting anything if he thought it would be the best move possible for the team.
I find people’s unwillingness to part with 1st round picks  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 1/27/2021 8:00 pm : link
for an ELITE young QB a bit surprising in light of the fact that this organization has probably screwed up more 1st round picks over the past decade than just about any franchise. It doesn’t mean that they would definitely draft bad players with those three picks, but it shows the foolishness in valuing the unknown versus a proven commodity at the sport’s most important position, which Watson is. Imagine team X using three consecutive first round picks on Ereck Flowers, Eli Apple, and Evan Engram.

I find the argument of this team not being close to contending even with Watson to be a more compelling reason not to do a trade like this, even if I don’t totally agree.
Has there been..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/27/2021 8:11 pm : link
a trade in NFL history close to being that rich and has it ever worked out favorably??

The Ricky Williams and Herschel Walker trades were unmitigated disasters for the team acquiring them. The Redskins spent 3 first rounders to get RGIII. Two first rounders and two players for Ryan Leaf.

But I'm guessing that even though this was a hypothetical thrown out there by ESPN - some of you will treat this as a miss if the Giants don't try to trade for Watson.

RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: ...  
christian : 1/27/2021 8:22 pm : link
In comment 15136437 Saquads26 said:
Quote:
I don't think Houston would accept that trade, but I also don't think Houston gets 3 no. 1's and a former top 10 pick.

Watson gets to pick his destination and the team has to be willing to pay. Houston doesn't have a ton of leverage.



Neither does Watson


Sure he does. Evidenced by the fact the Texans are seemingly considering trading him.
RE: I find people’s unwillingness to part with 1st round picks  
eric2425ny : 1/27/2021 8:25 pm : link
In comment 15136448 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
Quote:
for an ELITE young QB a bit surprising in light of the fact that this organization has probably screwed up more 1st round picks over the past decade than just about any franchise. It doesn’t mean that they would definitely draft bad players with those three picks, but it shows the foolishness in valuing the unknown versus a proven commodity at the sport’s most important position, which Watson is. Imagine team X using three consecutive first round picks on Ereck Flowers, Eli Apple, and Evan Engram.

I find the argument of this team not being close to contending even with Watson to be a more compelling reason not to do a trade like this, even if I don’t totally agree.


I view Watson as a very good QB, not elite. He’s not Mahomes or Josh Allen or Rodgers or Brady. He’s a very good QB that needs a good team around him to be successful. Like most QB’s do. The reason this trade is moronic is because you are using up so much draft capital and cap space to get him that you can’t put a good group of players around him. Which means you become the Houston Texans.

Even if we want to label him “elite” there are many examples of elite QB’s who didn’t win anything in the past due to the team around them not being good enough. Ask Dan Marino what that’s like. Or Boomer Esiason.
Sorry, this crazy trade idea has me posting way more than  
eric2425ny : 1/27/2021 8:44 pm : link
Normal lol. The one thing in all of these anti-Jones, we need an elite QB, etc. threads and comments I have been reading on here all season that is really ironic to me is that we haven’t had a top 5 QB in any year we have won the SB.

Simms was a very good QB and had an amazing Super Bowl in 86 but he was not a consensus top 5 QB that season. Same in 1990, Simms had a great year before he got hurt but from a talent perspective I think most would have put Elway, Montana, Kelly, Marino, and others above him.

And I love Eli, he’s one of my favorite Giants of all time, but he was not what one would view traditionally as an “elite” QB. He had that “clutch” factor. He needed a good team around him to get there, but man he could do some damage in the playoffs. But from a consensus perspective, I think most had him in the 8-15 QB ranking range both years we won the SB.

Point is, you don’t need an elite QB to win a SB. You need a good to very good QB and to build one hell of a team around him by not wasting draft picks in shitty trades.
There are so many quarterbacks named in this thread  
Go Terps : 1/27/2021 8:48 pm : link
Almost all of them are completely irrelevant to today's Giants.
Watson is better than Josh Allen.  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 1/27/2021 8:51 pm : link
Heck, they traded his best receiver (while Allen got a top flight receiver) and Watson still put up the superior numbers in 2020 nearly across the board.

As for the talent of the roster, I’d ask do I think the offensive line can improve without major changes? If the answer is yes, then the combo of Watson and Barkley could elevate this to a top quarter offense in the sport. If they can re-sign LW, then there’s no reason to predict any significant difference on defense.

We’re not dealing with the Baltimore Ravens here. I think people are putting too much value in this franchise getting 1st round picks right. Even without a trade, my confidence level in this front office isn’t particularly high. I’d let Joe Judge make the hypothetical decision on Watson, not Gettleman.
RE: Watson is better than Josh Allen.  
eric2425ny : 1/27/2021 9:07 pm : link
In comment 15136482 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
Quote:
Heck, they traded his best receiver (while Allen got a top flight receiver) and Watson still put up the superior numbers in 2020 nearly across the board.

As for the talent of the roster, I’d ask do I think the offensive line can improve without major changes? If the answer is yes, then the combo of Watson and Barkley could elevate this to a top quarter offense in the sport. If they can re-sign LW, then there’s no reason to predict any significant difference on defense.

We’re not dealing with the Baltimore Ravens here. I think people are putting too much value in this franchise getting 1st round picks right. Even without a trade, my confidence level in this front office isn’t particularly high. I’d let Joe Judge make the hypothetical decision on Watson, not Gettleman.


Wow, no way would I take Watson over Allen. And no way are you able to resign LW and add any sort of weapons for Watson if you give up those picks and use that cap space on Watson.
RE: There are so many quarterbacks named in this thread  
eric2425ny : 1/27/2021 9:09 pm : link
In comment 15136480 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Almost all of them are completely irrelevant to today's Giants.


The point is you don’t need an elite QB to win a SB. And for the record, Brady, an elite QB, took paycuts to help the team stay competitive. He also has a wife worth more than him which helps that decision. But that’s unheard of.
No Way  
Rolyrock : 1/27/2021 9:12 pm : link
Build around Jones, SB
RE: RE: There are so many quarterbacks named in this thread  
bw in dc : 1/27/2021 9:21 pm : link
In comment 15136493 eric2425ny said:
Quote:
In comment 15136480 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Almost all of them are completely irrelevant to today's Giants.



The point is you don’t need an elite QB to win a SB.


You don't. But it significantly helps if you do.

There have been 54 Super Bowl winners. Out of those teams, I would say the QBs who aren't elite were:

Plunkett
McMahon
Rypien (he has an unbelievable year in '91...was 2X Pro Bowl guy)
Hoss
Dilfer
Johnson
Falco
Foles


So 8 out of 54, or 15%. If you add in this year, because Brady or Mahomes will win, it's 8 out of 55, or 14%

Basically, you need an elite QB 86% of the time...
RE: RE: RE: There are so many quarterbacks named in this thread  
eric2425ny : 1/27/2021 9:26 pm : link
In comment 15136497 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15136493 eric2425ny said:


Quote:


In comment 15136480 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Almost all of them are completely irrelevant to today's Giants.



The point is you don’t need an elite QB to win a SB.



You don't. But it significantly helps if you do.

There have been 54 Super Bowl winners. Out of those teams, I would say the QBs who aren't elite were:

Plunkett
McMahon
Rypien (he has an unbelievable year in '91...was 2X Pro Bowl guy)
Hoss
Dilfer
Johnson
Falco
Foles


So 8 out of 54, or 15%. If you add in this year, because Brady or Mahomes will win, it's 8 out of 55, or 14%

Basically, you need an elite QB 86% of the time...


When I say elite, I am talking about being a consensus top 5 QB in the year they won the SB. I think there’s more than 8 that fit that category including Eli.
RE: Has there been..  
compton : 1/27/2021 9:30 pm : link
In comment 15136454 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
a trade in NFL history close to being that rich and has it ever worked out favorably??

The Ricky Williams and Herschel Walker trades were unmitigated disasters for the team acquiring them. The Redskins spent 3 first rounders to get RGIII. Two first rounders and two players for Ryan Leaf.

But I'm guessing that even though this was a hypothetical thrown out there by ESPN - some of you will treat this as a miss if the Giants don't try to trade for Watson.


RGIII and Ryan Leaf are not half the QB that Watson is. Are you really comparing running backs to a top 6 QB in a passing league?
I’m wondering who would win a fight between Watson  
Bill L : 1/27/2021 9:37 pm : link
And Chuck Norris?
RE: I’m wondering who would win a fight between Watson  
eric2425ny : 1/27/2021 9:39 pm : link
In comment 15136505 Bill L said:
Quote:
And Chuck Norris?


Lol. I’m his prime or elderly Chuck Norris?
RE: RE: Has there been..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/27/2021 10:26 pm : link
In comment 15136501 compton said:
Quote:
In comment 15136454 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


a trade in NFL history close to being that rich and has it ever worked out favorably??

The Ricky Williams and Herschel Walker trades were unmitigated disasters for the team acquiring them. The Redskins spent 3 first rounders to get RGIII. Two first rounders and two players for Ryan Leaf.

But I'm guessing that even though this was a hypothetical thrown out there by ESPN - some of you will treat this as a miss if the Giants don't try to trade for Watson.




RGIII and Ryan Leaf are not half the QB that Watson is. Are you really comparing running backs to a top 6 QB in a passing league?


I'm comparing the price paid to the return. Giving up multiple 1st rounders for RGIII had the Redskins in a hole for awhile. I'm surprised people are thinking that 3 firsts for a guy who had a #1 WR on his team and at one point, two of the better defensive ends, is going to come to a team with lesser talent and get better results? And not have the draft capital to improve the team significantly?
For as bad as the Giant roster is..  
Sean : 1/27/2021 10:39 pm : link
The Giants went 6-10 last year with a combination of Jones & McCoy at QB. The Texans went 4-12 with Watson at QB.

So, am I to assume the Giants roster is significantly better than the Texans and Watson will come here and improve the win total by at least 4 games?

Watson is a very good QB who put up huge numbers, but no way am I trading 3 first round picks.
RE: For as bad as the Giant roster is..  
Go Terps : 1/27/2021 10:45 pm : link
In comment 15136563 Sean said:
Quote:
The Giants went 6-10 last year with a combination of Jones & McCoy at QB. The Texans went 4-12 with Watson at QB.

So, am I to assume the Giants roster is significantly better than the Texans and Watson will come here and improve the win total by at least 4 games?

Watson is a very good QB who put up huge numbers, but no way am I trading 3 first round picks.


Watson + a competent OC and I'd feel great about winning 10 games and winning the division in 2021.

But again, pipe dream. I truly believe the Giants wouldn't trade Jones and a second rounder for Watson.
RE: For as bad as the Giant roster is..  
Jim from Katonah : 1/27/2021 10:48 pm : link
In comment 15136563 Sean said:
Quote:
The Giants went 6-10 last year with a combination of Jones & McCoy at QB. The Texans went 4-12 with Watson at QB.

So, am I to assume the Giants roster is significantly better than the Texans and Watson will come here and improve the win total by at least 4 games?

Watson is a very good QB who put up huge numbers, but no way am I trading 3 first round picks.


The Texans defense allowed 30 points per game last year. Watson won 11 and 10 games the previous 2 years and a playoff game before losing at Arrowhead. It’s not basketball where he plays both ways — he did his job last year, producing 36 TDs with very few turnovers — that’s 25 more TDs than Jones — and was a victim of the Texans defense utterly collapsing.
RE: RE: For as bad as the Giant roster is..  
Bill L : 1/27/2021 10:51 pm : link
In comment 15136568 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15136563 Sean said:


Quote:


The Giants went 6-10 last year with a combination of Jones & McCoy at QB. The Texans went 4-12 with Watson at QB.

So, am I to assume the Giants roster is significantly better than the Texans and Watson will come here and improve the win total by at least 4 games?

Watson is a very good QB who put up huge numbers, but no way am I trading 3 first round picks.



Watson + a competent OC and I'd feel great about winning 10 games and winning the division in 2021.

But again, pipe dream. I truly believe the Giants wouldn't trade Jones and a second rounder for Watson.

Oh, Watson would need at least one other person to win. That’s an unexpected concession.
Bill L  
Go Terps : 1/27/2021 11:00 pm : link
I think any Giant quarterback is going to need a new OC to win. Garrett is a major problem.
RE: RE: RE: For as bad as the Giant roster is..  
Jim from Katonah : 1/27/2021 11:02 pm : link
In comment 15136572 Bill L said:
Quote:
In comment 15136568 Go Terps said:


Quote:


In comment 15136563 Sean said:


Quote:


The Giants went 6-10 last year with a combination of Jones & McCoy at QB. The Texans went 4-12 with Watson at QB.

So, am I to assume the Giants roster is significantly better than the Texans and Watson will come here and improve the win total by at least 4 games?

Watson is a very good QB who put up huge numbers, but no way am I trading 3 first round picks.



Watson + a competent OC and I'd feel great about winning 10 games and winning the division in 2021.

But again, pipe dream. I truly believe the Giants wouldn't trade Jones and a second rounder for Watson.


Oh, Watson would need at least one other person to win. That’s an unexpected concession.


Watson is a proven NFL TD producer — and paired with what seems to be a solid Graham defense, they’d be a heavy favorite in the NFC East and maybe a force in a weak NFC where almost all the teams are in some form of QB flux. Not sure he could beat Chuck Norris in a fight, Chuck is nasty, but he’d sure look great in blue.
RE: Bill L  
Bill L : 1/27/2021 11:06 pm : link
In comment 15136575 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I think any Giant quarterback is going to need a new OC to win. Garrett is a major problem.

I guess we differ, because I think you need at least 10 other players. Although guys to play defense might help too. But I’ll defer.
When God said “Let there be light!” Deshaun Watson said “Say please”  
Bill L : 1/27/2021 11:09 pm : link
Deshaun Watson doesn’t read books. He stares them down until he gets the information he wants.
RE: RE: Bill L  
Go Terps : 1/27/2021 11:13 pm : link
In comment 15136582 Bill L said:
Quote:
In comment 15136575 Go Terps said:


Quote:


I think any Giant quarterback is going to need a new OC to win. Garrett is a major problem.


I guess we differ, because I think you need at least 10 other players. Although guys to play defense might help too. But I’ll defer.


Who's saying otherwise?

It's interesting to see the growing rationalization for Jones - "You don't need a great QB to win". This is a BBI phenomenon over the years...change thought processes to align with what the Giants are doing. The Giants could sign a donkey to be the kicker and after two weeks there'd be posters rationalizing it.

People are starting to realize what Jones is. Their way of dealing with it is to say you don't need a great QB to win, and to point to great QBs (Rodgers, Marino, Fouts, etc.) who haven't won as many Super Bowls as their reputation would suggest.

How many shitty QBs win Super Bowls?
All I know is I would not bet the house on a team comprised  
Bill L : 1/27/2021 11:16 pm : link
Just of Deshaun Watson and a non-Jason Garret OC.

But then again, Deshaun Watson once roundhouse kicked someone so hard that his foot broke the speed of light, so what do I know.
RE: When God said “Let there be light!” Deshaun Watson said “Say please”  
Jim from Katonah : 1/27/2021 11:17 pm : link
In comment 15136584 Bill L said:
Quote:
Deshaun Watson doesn’t read books. He stares them down until he gets the information he wants.


Haha, I’ll cease with my pointless pro-Watson drivel. Daniel from Durham will hopefully lead us from the wilderness.

If we got Watson...  
bw in dc : 1/27/2021 11:32 pm : link
we'd clearly have the best QB in the NFCE.

Meanwhil...

--The Eagles are a disaster. New coach, QB uncertainty, aging roster, etc.

--The WFT has a good defense. But who is the QB again?

--Dallas has no D and lots of question marks on the O - Dak, Zeke, aging OL, etc.


With Watson, and Barkley back and some FA acquisitions (in this scenario it would be wise to let LW go), we'd be the clear favorite in the NFCE.

And isn't that step one? To compete and win the division?
RE: If we got Watson...  
Jim from Katonah : 1/27/2021 11:39 pm : link
In comment 15136592 bw in dc said:
Quote:
we'd clearly have the best QB in the NFCE.

Meanwhil...

--The Eagles are a disaster. New coach, QB uncertainty, aging roster, etc.

--The WFT has a good defense. But who is the QB again?

--Dallas has no D and lots of question marks on the O - Dak, Zeke, aging OL, etc.


With Watson, and Barkley back and some FA acquisitions (in this scenario it would be wise to let LW go), we'd be the clear favorite in the NFCE.

And isn't that step one? To compete and win the division?


Watson’s offense outscored the Giants offense by 100, and the Giants defense gave up 100 less than the Texans so you’d think ... oh never mind, I give up.
Jim from Katonah...  
bw in dc : 1/27/2021 11:49 pm : link
This simulated trade is revealing something interesting and bewildering - that a fair portion of BBI really think DJ is eventually going to be a home run pick. So it's worth bypassing on a considerably better option like Watson to see that through...

You can only conclude that they actually think DJ is going to be as good or better than Watson. And I have absolutely no idea how that is rationalized.



RE: Jim from Katonah...  
Jim from Katonah : 1/28/2021 12:01 am : link
In comment 15136597 bw in dc said:
Quote:
This simulated trade is revealing something interesting and bewildering - that a fair portion of BBI really think DJ is eventually going to be a home run pick. So it's worth bypassing on a considerably better option like Watson to see that through...

You can only conclude that they actually think DJ is going to be as good or better than Watson. And I have absolutely no idea how that is rationalized.




In Graham’s second year, I’d think the defense would really start to gel, and adding Watson would immediately make them heavy favorites to win the NFC East. The cascading positive effects of a 9 or 10 win season on the Judge regime is hard to quantify too. I understand those first rounders are hard to give up, but Watson is a top 5 overall pick if you were building a team ....
RE: Jim from Katonah...  
section125 : 1/28/2021 12:08 am : link
In comment 15136597 bw in dc said:
Quote:
This simulated trade is revealing something interesting and bewildering - that a fair portion of BBI really think DJ is eventually going to be a home run pick. So it's worth bypassing on a considerably better option like Watson to see that through...

You can only conclude that they actually think DJ is going to be as good or better than Watson. And I have absolutely no idea how that is rationalized.




So, you are willing to give up 3 1st round picks and Jones for a QB(yes a good one)?
So, you are willing to cripple the team for several years on the chance that Watson is so good he can take a vastly underwhelming offense and turn it(and himself) into Patrick Mahomes and the Chiefs, but Patrick Mahomes without 3 1st round draft picks in the following years.

Some of you could not find your butt cheeks with both hands.
The fucking team is crippled now!  
Go Terps : 1/28/2021 12:24 am : link
.
Cripple the team?  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 1/28/2021 5:29 am : link
Have you seen their first round picks the past decade? Attaching value to unknowns over a 26 year-old elite QB doesn’t make much sense either. And it’s not as if this team is known for turning it’s first round picks into a bevy of lower selections.

I’m a bigger supporter of Daniel Jones than most of the people on this site, but this trade would be something I’d have to pull the trigger on. I think a lot of the decision would come down to what I think about the offensive line and the team’s ability to plug holes in on defense.
RE: The fucking team is crippled now!  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 1/28/2021 6:28 am : link
In comment 15136609 Go Terps said:
Quote:
.



You hate this regime so much that all rational thought has gone out the window.

You know, it IS possible to believe that Jones is not the answer at QB but ALSO think that trading away 4 first-round picks for one player is a bad idea.

You are constantly beating the drum that this team lacks talent. You are correct in that assessment. So, don't you think it would be hard to build talent around their shiny new QB with no first round picks until 2024? Watson would be 28 at this point.

It's hard to fathom that you of all people would advocate for something so boneheaded. The only reasons I can come up with is that you are either trolling, or your anger at this regime has gotten so intense that you are no longer thinking rationally.
The Kansas City Chiefs have used their own first round picks  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 1/28/2021 6:54 am : link
on just 2 of their starters, only one of whom will play in the Super Bowl. . They also traded a combined 3 first round picks and a second round pick for Frank Clark and the pick used to select Pat Mahomes.

The Bucs will have twice as many second round picks of their own starting in the Super Bowl than first round picks.
RE: RE: The fucking team is crippled now!  
Victor in CT : 1/28/2021 7:33 am : link
In comment 15136633 LakeGeorgeGiant said:
Quote:
In comment 15136609 Go Terps said:


Quote:


.




You hate this regime so much that all rational thought has gone out the window.

You know, it IS possible to believe that Jones is not the answer at QB but ALSO think that trading away 4 first-round picks for one player is a bad idea.

You are constantly beating the drum that this team lacks talent. You are correct in that assessment. So, don't you think it would be hard to build talent around their shiny new QB with no first round picks until 2024? Watson would be 28 at this point.

It's hard to fathom that you of all people would advocate for something so boneheaded. The only reasons I can come up with is that you are either trolling, or your anger at this regime has gotten so intense that you are no longer thinking rationally.


LGG, This point is spot on: "You know, it IS possible to believe that Jones is not the answer at QB but ALSO think that trading away 4 first-round picks for one player is a bad idea."

it reflects critical thinking and reason, something sorely lacking here.
With DG as our GM  
MyNameIsMyName : 1/28/2021 7:35 am : link
I’m making this deal in a second. With a good GM, I’m not.
RE: The fucking team is crippled now!  
section125 : 1/28/2021 7:38 am : link
In comment 15136609 Go Terps said:
Quote:
.


So, cripple it permanently? Nobody is worth giving up 3 consecutive years of 1st round picks for. Nobody. This team is hurting for players. I like Deshaun a lot. He is not as good as Mahomes, or even Rodgers. PM himself could not make this offense work - there are no playmakers, just some roll players. Perhaps if Barkley comes back healthy there would have one and Shepard in the slot.

Some of you have lost sight of reality and are at the point of needing to be ignored. I feel bad to even say that.
I'm in - do it.  
Dnew15 : 1/28/2021 8:20 am : link
It takes a complete trainwreck of a job from a franchise front office for a guy like Watson to even become available ... otherwise - it just wouldn't happen.

The Texans somehow managed to pull it off - someone is going to really benefit from that HUGE mistake - I hope it's the Giants.
RE: RE: The fucking team is crippled now!  
UConn4523 : 1/28/2021 8:58 am : link
In comment 15136645 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 15136609 Go Terps said:


Quote:


.



So, cripple it permanently? Nobody is worth giving up 3 consecutive years of 1st round picks for. Nobody. This team is hurting for players. I like Deshaun a lot. He is not as good as Mahomes, or even Rodgers. PM himself could not make this offense work - there are no playmakers, just some roll players. Perhaps if Barkley comes back healthy there would have one and Shepard in the slot.

Some of you have lost sight of reality and are at the point of needing to be ignored. I feel bad to even say that.


I agreed up until "Pat Mahomes wouldn't make this work". That's a criminal underselling of how good he is. At a bare minimum he'd turn the ball over less, he'd throw for more yards and more TD's. He'd also take less sacks.

When I watch the Giants I don't see a supporting cast that's so bad anyone under center is destined to fail. Rather, I see an underwhelming team that needs a lot to go right to win and also left wins on the field (2-3 in fact in 2020 alone). Adding Mahomes means we likely win those 2-3 games plus maybe another 1-2 games that we weren't expecting. That's what special players do. 9-7 minimum in 2020 with Mahomes and that includes no Barkley.
I have no skin in this thread...  
Britt in VA : 1/28/2021 9:07 am : link
But didn’t the sorry ass 2018 Giants go to Houston and beat the Deshuan Watson led Texans at home? How does that happen?
RE: I have no skin in this thread...  
UConn4523 : 1/28/2021 9:10 am : link
In comment 15136700 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
But didn’t the sorry ass 2018 Giants go to Houston and beat the Deshuan Watson led Texans at home? How does that happen?


Eli/Barkley/Beckham!
some people are comparing  
pjcas18 : 1/28/2021 9:21 am : link
Mahomes acquisition by the Chiefs to the Giants getting Watson. And obviously ignore 1) the Chiefs traded significantly less than this proposal and 2) Mahomes was on a rookie deal

Furthermore, the chiefs already had Kelce, Hill, and a decent to good OL in place. Plus Andy Reid.

I watch a lot of Chiefs games, and I don't think you can plug Evan Engram and Darius Slayton in place of Kelce and Hill and get the same results with as good as Mahomes is and Watson isn't really close to Mahomes.

Watson on the Giants, may improve the Giants, but I'd say it makes the Giants closer to the Texans, not the Chiefs.

And without the draft picks and cap flexibility where do your Hill and Kelce come from?

Making that trade may get the Giants to 8 - 8 for a year, then what?

Yes, the Giants need to improve their QB situation either by Daniel Jones playing better/getting better players around him or by replacing him. But this is not how.

The NFL is a copycat league, show me the situation where a team gave up this many assets (draft picks and salary) for a player and it turned out well.


I don't think there is anything to copy cat  
Dnew15 : 1/28/2021 10:48 am : link
on this one.

I don't think there has ever been a 25 year old franchise QB type player on the market...ever.
Three first round picks and Jones  
JonC : 1/28/2021 10:53 am : link
essentially four first rounders does not compute. Watson is a very good QB but isn't Mahomes-level, that's the cost level you're looking at here. Let's not grocery shop starving yet again. That's how you add to the prolonged suckage.
RE: Three first round picks and Jones  
LauderdaleMatty : 1/28/2021 11:06 am : link
In comment 15136844 JonC said:
Quote:
essentially four first rounders does not compute. Watson is a very good QB but isn't Mahomes-level, that's the cost level you're looking at here. Let's not grocery shop starving yet again. That's how you add to the prolonged suckage.


This. Guy has become the most over rated NFL QB in a month. Guy isnt half of Mahomes and is t even as good as Brady or Rodgers who are over a decade more in age.

And if Watson really wants out he can give back the portion of his signing bonus that is set out to hit the cap can't he?

If I'm Houston go public. Let him give back the money back and renegotiate a new deal with whom he selects. I hate my mortgage. I should just refuse to pay it until I find a bank I like.

And for all those who alibi and support for these guys to literally refuse to abide by a contract after getting 40 million, if it was your 40 million you'd be more than upset.

Guy is a diva and another guy who's stats are good but hasn't won shit w en when he had the pieces
RE: Three first round picks and Jones  
Jim from Katonah : 1/28/2021 11:06 am : link
In comment 15136844 JonC said:
Quote:
essentially four first rounders does not compute. Watson is a very good QB but isn't Mahomes-level, that's the cost level you're looking at here. Let's not grocery shop starving yet again. That's how you add to the prolonged suckage.


Last year, playing for a dysfunctional team whose defense collapsed, Watson led the NFL in both passing yards and yards per attempt (8.9!) while producing 36 TDs vs 10 turnovers. With a 70% completion rate. I know you’ve said he’s left big plays out there, but digest those stats for a second. He was coming off 11 win and 10 win seasons, but last year the Texans D cratered. He’s only 25 and is a noted winner and big game player. And in this league, I’d say the biggest recipe for prolonged suckage is not being set at the QB position.
Four  
JonC : 1/28/2021 11:08 am : link
First. Rounders. You got little ammo left for the draft when you consider how steep the fall off is in talent after the second round.

If you're willing to trade all those assets call me when Mahomes is on the block.
Three firsts in terms of future picks  
JonC : 1/28/2021 11:11 am : link
of course.
RE: Four  
Jim from Katonah : 1/28/2021 11:15 am : link
In comment 15136853 JonC said:
Quote:
First. Rounders. You got little ammo left for the draft when you consider how steep the fall off is in talent after the second round.

If you're willing to trade all those assets call me when Mahomes is on the block.


I personally don’t think that’s a good risk analysis, in a QB driven league, to just sit back and hope things fall into place with Jones when you have a chance to get a proven top 5 guy just coming into his prime. But what the hell do I know — I wanted Josh Rosen lol.
Watson has asked to be traded  
JonC : 1/28/2021 11:16 am : link
...
Link - ( New Window )
4 1st rounders  
MyNameIsMyName : 1/28/2021 11:16 am : link
Watson or Thomas,Jones,Lawrence, and Baker? Watson vs our last 4 1st rounders. I think any team would take Watson here. You have to draft good for the 1st rd picks to have that value.
RE: RE: Four  
JonC : 1/28/2021 11:20 am : link
In comment 15136862 Jim from Katonah said:
Quote:
In comment 15136853 JonC said:


Quote:


First. Rounders. You got little ammo left for the draft when you consider how steep the fall off is in talent after the second round.

If you're willing to trade all those assets call me when Mahomes is on the block.



I personally don’t think that’s a good risk analysis, in a QB driven league, to just sit back and hope things fall into place with Jones when you have a chance to get a proven top 5 guy just coming into his prime. But what the hell do I know — I wanted Josh Rosen lol.


I'm not a risk analyst, just using common sense. I'm not suggesting placing all the eggs in the Jones basket. I didn't want to draft him in the first place.

But, how to potentially go about replacing Jones and upgrading the QB position needs to be smart, not desperate or thank you sir may I have another.

I do think you overrate Watson a bit. On the whole, the Texans have been a disappointment more often that not, and Watson is part of the calculus. Buyer beware!
If you make that trade for Watson..  
Sean : 1/28/2021 11:23 am : link
You better be a Super Bowl contender this upcoming season. I’m talking 12+ wins, bye in the first round and consistent title contender.

I don’t see it.
RE: RE: RE: Four  
Jim from Katonah : 1/28/2021 11:24 am : link
In comment 15136874 JonC said:
Quote:
In comment 15136862 Jim from Katonah said:


Quote:


In comment 15136853 JonC said:


Quote:


First. Rounders. You got little ammo left for the draft when you consider how steep the fall off is in talent after the second round.

If you're willing to trade all those assets call me when Mahomes is on the block.



I personally don’t think that’s a good risk analysis, in a QB driven league, to just sit back and hope things fall into place with Jones when you have a chance to get a proven top 5 guy just coming into his prime. But what the hell do I know — I wanted Josh Rosen lol.



I'm not a risk analyst, just using common sense. I'm not suggesting placing all the eggs in the Jones basket. I didn't want to draft him in the first place.

But, how to potentially go about replacing Jones and upgrading the QB position needs to be smart, not desperate or thank you sir may I have another.

I do think you overrate Watson a bit. On the whole, the Texans have been a disappointment more often that not, and Watson is part of the calculus. Buyer beware!


I have a proven track record of being wrong on QBs, I see reasons why folks might be optimistic, so I’m gonna of course root like hell that he returns to his 2019 form.
RE: If you make that trade for Watson..  
christian : 1/28/2021 11:25 am : link
In comment 15136878 Sean said:
Quote:
You better be a Super Bowl contender this upcoming season. I’m talking 12+ wins, bye in the first round and consistent title contender.

I don’t see it.


Unfortunately, I feel like the WFT fits that mold if they add a top 5 QB.
Hmmm. A High priced QB with NO Draft picks?  
ZogZerg : 1/28/2021 11:28 am : link
That didn't work out so well for the Texan, did it?
That's not the way to Build a team.
I like Watson a QB as well.

Watson can certainly put up good stats and 4 wins for the Giants, if that's what you are looking for.
There is some symmetry here  
pjcas18 : 1/28/2021 11:29 am : link
DeShaun Watson was the 12th pick in his draft, Mahomes was 10th in his. This year the Giants pick 11th.

I know it doesn't always work this way (supply meet demand) but why not just draft a QB at 11?

Or stick with Jones another year and if he shits the bed, the Giants will be shitty in 2021 and draft a QB in 2022.

Upgrade QB is a necessity whether it's get Jones to play better by him improving, surrounding him with better talent (at the skill positions and the OL), and better play calling, or simply replacing Jones.

but this trade proposal will not make the Giants better IMO.
RE: RE: RE: Four  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 1/28/2021 11:29 am : link
In comment 15136874 JonC said:
Quote:


I do think you overrate Watson a bit. On the whole, the Texans have been a disappointment more often that not, and Watson is part of the calculus. Buyer beware!


According to footballoutsiders.com, the Texans were the worst rushing offense in the NFL in 2020. They were also the 30th ranked defense overall, including 29th against both the pass and run. The problem is Houston was literally terrible everywhere else. Even their special teams were below average.

Watson was the 5th ranked QB according to their numbers, trailing only Mahomes, Brady, Rodgers, and Josh Allen... yes, the 4 guys who played last weekend.
RE: RE: For as bad as the Giant roster is..  
djm : 1/28/2021 11:30 am : link
In comment 15136568 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15136563 Sean said:


Quote:


The Giants went 6-10 last year with a combination of Jones & McCoy at QB. The Texans went 4-12 with Watson at QB.

So, am I to assume the Giants roster is significantly better than the Texans and Watson will come here and improve the win total by at least 4 games?

Watson is a very good QB who put up huge numbers, but no way am I trading 3 first round picks.



Watson + a competent OC and I'd feel great about winning 10 games and winning the division in 2021.

But again, pipe dream. I truly believe the Giants wouldn't trade Jones and a second rounder for Watson.


You continue to post lighting rod and out of touch takes like this. Why? Every discussion here devolves into horse shit takes. Every single one! Then we debate about horse shit.

Ask yourself why the Giants truly wouldn't trade Jones for Watson? Even if this take is made up garbage, seriously ask yourself why. Think about it objectively. Try to. Why would the Giants say no thx to a trade like that? Do you think they want to suck? do you really think the Giants aren't afraid to admit a mistake? the evidence against this is so striking but as usual, no one wants to see evidence or proof when they get on a roll. They just want to be right.
We are going to argue whether Leonard Williams is worth a  
Britt in VA : 1/28/2021 11:32 am : link
3rd round pick because we can't give up resources but we're gung ho to give up 3, maybe 4 (if we include Jones) FIRST ROUND PICKS? Seriously?
one more time  
djm : 1/28/2021 11:36 am : link
the Giants have fired more HCs, asst coaches and GMS than nearly every team going over the last 5 years or so. This is a fucking fact. Not made up. Fact. The Giants have traded or cut so many players lately I have lost count. So have you.

Just because the Giants suck lately doesn't mean they don't care. Or that DG is sitting in his office coming up with ways to cover excuse the DJ pick. It doesn't mean he won't move from DJ.

Some of you sure know how to frame a point and make it look like a mature and articulate take but when you unravel it all you get is stupid.

DG doesn't want to admit his mistake and won't move on from Jones. Never mind that Judge is the HC and already benched and cut countless holdovers and never mind DG himself has moved on from disappointing players HE HIMSELF signed, in the SAME YEAR.

This place fucking sucks lately because you have smart people dressing up really stupid and out of touch posts.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Four  
JonC : 1/28/2021 11:41 am : link
In comment 15136885 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
Quote:
In comment 15136874 JonC said:


Quote:




I do think you overrate Watson a bit. On the whole, the Texans have been a disappointment more often that not, and Watson is part of the calculus. Buyer beware!



According to footballoutsiders.com, the Texans were the worst rushing offense in the NFL in 2020. They were also the 30th ranked defense overall, including 29th against both the pass and run. The problem is Houston was literally terrible everywhere else. Even their special teams were below average.

Watson was the 5th ranked QB according to their numbers, trailing only Mahomes, Brady, Rodgers, and Josh Allen... yes, the 4 guys who played last weekend.


Great, let him win some big NFL games to complete the circle of belief. He's not what I would spend three #1 picks on right now.
RE: We are going to argue whether Leonard Williams is worth a  
christian : 1/28/2021 11:41 am : link
In comment 15136888 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
3rd round pick because we can't give up resources but we're gung ho to give up 3, maybe 4 (if we include Jones) FIRST ROUND PICKS? Seriously?


I agree 3+ first round picks is a complete non-starter.

But Williams vs. Watson is not apples to apples. Watson is on a really manageable contract and obviously plays a much more valuable position.
djm..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/28/2021 11:41 am : link
well put. Framing horseshit under the guise of being a "realist" doesn't make one a realist nor insightful.
But blind, unquestioning faith in Dave Gettleman IS realistic?  
Greg from LI : 1/28/2021 11:43 am : link
Okay.
Is Watson's..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/28/2021 11:44 am : link
contract outside of next year really that good??

Deshaun Watson signed a 4 year, $156,000,000 contract including a $27,000,000 signing bonus, $110,717,123 guaranteed, and an average annual salary of $39,000,000. In 2021, Watson will earn a base salary of $10,540,000, while carrying a cap hit of $15,940,000 and a dead cap value of $67,140,000

In 2022 and 2023, his salary is over $40M each year
RE: RE: We are going to argue whether Leonard Williams is worth a  
UConn4523 : 1/28/2021 11:45 am : link
In comment 15136905 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 15136888 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


3rd round pick because we can't give up resources but we're gung ho to give up 3, maybe 4 (if we include Jones) FIRST ROUND PICKS? Seriously?



I agree 3+ first round picks is a complete non-starter.

But Williams vs. Watson is not apples to apples. Watson is on a really manageable contract and obviously plays a much more valuable position.


I think his point is people are pissed about trading a 3rd for a guy clearly worth it vs being ok giving up 3 firsts for a QB who isn't Mahomes.

I'd love to get Watson, but not at this price. Two 1sts would be tops for me (with other add ons).
RE: But blind, unquestioning faith in Dave Gettleman IS realistic?  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/28/2021 11:45 am : link
In comment 15136909 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
Okay.


Somewhere in an alley a strawman has been bludgeoned.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Four  
djm : 1/28/2021 11:47 am : link
In comment 15136904 JonC said:
Quote:
In comment 15136885 shockeyisthebest8056 said:


Quote:


In comment 15136874 JonC said:


Quote:




I do think you overrate Watson a bit. On the whole, the Texans have been a disappointment more often that not, and Watson is part of the calculus. Buyer beware!



According to footballoutsiders.com, the Texans were the worst rushing offense in the NFL in 2020. They were also the 30th ranked defense overall, including 29th against both the pass and run. The problem is Houston was literally terrible everywhere else. Even their special teams were below average.

Watson was the 5th ranked QB according to their numbers, trailing only Mahomes, Brady, Rodgers, and Josh Allen... yes, the 4 guys who played last weekend.



Great, let him win some big NFL games to complete the circle of belief. He's not what I would spend three #1 picks on right now.


I think this is a somewhat fair take and this coming from a big Watson fan. I have watched Watson start playoff games in pretty alarmingly bad fashion. His numbers were likely pretty good by game's end, but one game last season jumps to mind where Watson was putting his head down right off the snap and looking to "muddle" the play rather than go through progressions and make plays from the pocket. And as a big fan of his and one who wanted to really analyze his play, i would pause and rewind many plays and find that the pockets were clean in many cases but Watson was all out of sorts. HE got his bearings but in the end it was too late.

Watson is a better player than Jones. HE might always be a better player than Jones, but it's far from a certainty and even if Watson has the sexier skill set and regular season pedigree, he might not be the big game QB that Jones develops into. And that is definitely a real thing. We know it is. Watson has a long way to go to become a true big game QB. Maybe as far as Jones has to go. Jones just needs to become a more consistent player. There's a difference.
last season being 2019  
djm : 1/28/2021 11:48 am : link
..
....  
BrettNYG10 : 1/28/2021 11:48 am : link
I wouldn't do three firsts. I'd definitely do a first and Jones.

Don't know about two firsts and Jones. That's tough.
RE: But blind, unquestioning faith in Dave Gettleman IS realistic?  
djm : 1/28/2021 11:51 am : link
In comment 15136909 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
Okay.


that's just an unfair take you and many here have thrown around. Blind?

Ernie Accorsi says hi. And you're damn right I will go to this well time and time again.
I wouldn't do three firsts  
Greg from LI : 1/28/2021 11:52 am : link
But not because Watson wouldn't be a massive upgrade on Jones, because he absolutely would be. I wouldn't for the simple fact that this roster sucks and needs talent all over the field.

Of course, then you run into the problem that the guy who will be making those picks is the reason why the roster sucks in the first place.
Ernie Accorsi has what to do with this, again?  
Greg from LI : 1/28/2021 11:52 am : link
.
RE: We are going to argue whether Leonard Williams is worth a  
Jim from Katonah : 1/28/2021 11:53 am : link
In comment 15136888 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
3rd round pick because we can't give up resources but we're gung ho to give up 3, maybe 4 (if we include Jones) FIRST ROUND PICKS? Seriously?


I think the analysis depends on how critical you think having a top QB is in today’s NFL. To me, Watson has shown enough to reasonably bet that he’ll be a top QB for at least the next 5 years — and he’s a smarter bet than Jones (big risk) and three future first rounders (we don’t have a great track record). The NFC East — and the NFC in general — is ripe for the taking with Brady 42, Brees gone, and Rodgers 37. It’s a rare, maybe unprecedented opportunity to get a guy this young and this good. And he’s not Ricky Williams or Herschel Walker. He’s a QB, the most important part of a football team.
RE: Ernie Accorsi has what to do with this, again?  
djm : 1/28/2021 11:53 am : link
In comment 15136926 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
.


You and most here obliterated him prior to COughlin coming on board. You forgot?
RE: Is Watson's..  
christian : 1/28/2021 11:55 am : link
In comment 15136911 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
contract outside of next year really that good??

Deshaun Watson signed a 4 year, $156,000,000 contract including a $27,000,000 signing bonus, $110,717,123 guaranteed, and an average annual salary of $39,000,000. In 2021, Watson will earn a base salary of $10,540,000, while carrying a cap hit of $15,940,000 and a dead cap value of $67,140,000

In 2022 and 2023, his salary is over $40M each year


But if traded, the complexion of the contract is much different, notably the balance of the signing bonus not being the new team’s responsibility.

The dollars and guarantees easily lend themselves to restructuring (which Abrams has done each time he’s acquired a player via trade. Notably Ogletree and Zeitler).

The balance of the traded contract would be 5/146.5M with 45M fully guaranteed, and 82M practically guaranteed.

All things equal, that’s a very reasonable contract for a 26-year-old, top 5 type QB.
GMs are not Head coaches  
djm : 1/28/2021 11:56 am : link
they don't impact the wins and losses like a HC can and will. If the HC sucks, especially during a full fledged crisis/rebuild phase like 17 led to, the GM won't look very good now will he.

How many GMs looked shaky before finally finding solid ground? How many looked great for years before the team completely fell apart? How come great HCs rarely every become bad ones but we see good GMs preside over bad teams all the time? Ask yourself how that happens?
And I still don't think much of him  
Greg from LI : 1/28/2021 11:57 am : link
.
RE: GMs are not Head coaches  
Greg from LI : 1/28/2021 11:59 am : link
In comment 15136934 djm said:
Quote:
they don't impact the wins and losses like a HC can and will. If the HC sucks, especially during a full fledged crisis/rebuild phase like 17 led to, the GM won't look very good now will he.

How many GMs looked shaky before finally finding solid ground? How many looked great for years before the team completely fell apart? How come great HCs rarely every become bad ones but we see good GMs preside over bad teams all the time? Ask yourself how that happens?


What's the expiration date for this reasoning, or is there one? How long does Gettleman get a pass for horrid teams? One more year? Two? Three?
RE: And I still don't think much of him  
djm : 1/28/2021 12:00 pm : link
In comment 15136935 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
.


I still like you.

I guess I just think GMs aren't as important as HCs are. I would love a 2018 mulligan. I haven't given DG a pass for everything, I just don't think he holds this team back now that Judge is here.

I also don't think the GM is the sole reason why some decisions can be second guessed here with the Giants. MAra likely has a say in things. Just a theory I can't prove anything.
RE: RE: Is Watson's..  
bw in dc : 1/28/2021 12:00 pm : link
In comment 15136933 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 15136911 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


contract outside of next year really that good??

Deshaun Watson signed a 4 year, $156,000,000 contract including a $27,000,000 signing bonus, $110,717,123 guaranteed, and an average annual salary of $39,000,000. In 2021, Watson will earn a base salary of $10,540,000, while carrying a cap hit of $15,940,000 and a dead cap value of $67,140,000

In 2022 and 2023, his salary is over $40M each year



But if traded, the complexion of the contract is much different, notably the balance of the signing bonus not being the new team’s responsibility.

The dollars and guarantees easily lend themselves to restructuring (which Abrams has done each time he’s acquired a player via trade. Notably Ogletree and Zeitler).

The balance of the traded contract would be 5/146.5M with 45M fully guaranteed, and 82M practically guaranteed.

All things equal, that’s a very reasonable contract for a 26-year-old, top 5 type QB.


Excellent post.

One correction - Watson is 25. ;)
RE: RE: We are going to argue whether Leonard Williams is worth a  
JonC : 1/28/2021 12:03 pm : link
In comment 15136927 Jim from Katonah said:
Quote:
In comment 15136888 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


3rd round pick because we can't give up resources but we're gung ho to give up 3, maybe 4 (if we include Jones) FIRST ROUND PICKS? Seriously?



I think the analysis depends on how critical you think having a top QB is in today’s NFL. To me, Watson has shown enough to reasonably bet that he’ll be a top QB for at least the next 5 years — and he’s a smarter bet than Jones (big risk) and three future first rounders (we don’t have a great track record). The NFC East — and the NFC in general — is ripe for the taking with Brady 42, Brees gone, and Rodgers 37. It’s a rare, maybe unprecedented opportunity to get a guy this young and this good. And he’s not Ricky Williams or Herschel Walker. He’s a QB, the most important part of a football team.


You would be plugging Watson into a roster stil full of holes, without premium draft capital and much less cap space to make progress.

Watson looks like a smarter bet than Jones right now, but far from settled, and at what cost which is reasonable. Three #1s and Jones is a considerably desperate offer, imv, and I one who would actually prefer to move on from Jones.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Four  
Jim from Katonah : 1/28/2021 12:03 pm : link
In comment 15136904 JonC said:
Quote:
In comment 15136885 shockeyisthebest8056 said:


Quote:


In comment 15136874 JonC said:


Quote:




I do think you overrate Watson a bit. On the whole, the Texans have been a disappointment more often that not, and Watson is part of the calculus. Buyer beware!



According to footballoutsiders.com, the Texans were the worst rushing offense in the NFL in 2020. They were also the 30th ranked defense overall, including 29th against both the pass and run. The problem is Houston was literally terrible everywhere else. Even their special teams were below average.

Watson was the 5th ranked QB according to their numbers, trailing only Mahomes, Brady, Rodgers, and Josh Allen... yes, the 4 guys who played last weekend.



Great, let him win some big NFL games to complete the circle of belief. He's not what I would spend three #1 picks on right now.


He’s won 11 and 10 games and a playoff game, but he’s not gonna be available when he wins more. He’s available now. Has a top 5-7!QB this young ever been available? I can’t think of one.
RE: We are going to argue whether Leonard Williams is worth a  
bw in dc : 1/28/2021 12:05 pm : link
In comment 15136888 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
3rd round pick because we can't give up resources but we're gung ho to give up 3, maybe 4 (if we include Jones) FIRST ROUND PICKS? Seriously?


It's silly to compare a player who touches the ball on every offensive play, and directly scores points, to a player who doesn't and plays D.

I probably agree 3 firsts are too much. But what is the hit rate on first rounders becoming really good players? 50%? Pro Bowl players? 25%. So we may lose 1.5 good players to acquire a proven, great player at the most important position.

It's not that bad of a gamble...
Maybe the Maras do interfere as much as Randal says  
Greg from LI : 1/28/2021 12:07 pm : link
I don't know, and neither does he, but it's possible. However, I have a hard time believing that they're forcing Gettleman to draft Daniel Jones sixth overall, for example.
The issue I have  
jestersdead : 1/28/2021 12:09 pm : link
is that I don't see the Jones progressing that others do. And fear that 2021 will be a "wasted" year and the Giants will then need to draft a QB to compete or find one in FA. Why not pull the plug a year early as opposed to waiting too long, just like they did with Eli
...  
christian : 1/28/2021 12:09 pm : link
Just as a temp check, does anyone actually think the hypothetical (3 1st + Jones) is the right price?

I think most in favor would say something short of that, would be the sweet spot.
RE: RE: We are going to argue whether Leonard Williams is worth a  
Britt in VA : 1/28/2021 12:09 pm : link
In comment 15136951 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15136888 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


3rd round pick because we can't give up resources but we're gung ho to give up 3, maybe 4 (if we include Jones) FIRST ROUND PICKS? Seriously?



It's silly to compare a player who touches the ball on every offensive play, and directly scores points, to a player who doesn't and plays D.

I probably agree 3 firsts are too much. But what is the hit rate on first rounders becoming really good players? 50%? Pro Bowl players? 25%. So we may lose 1.5 good players to acquire a proven, great player at the most important position.

It's not that bad of a gamble...


I'm not comparing the players or positions.

I'm comparing the outrage over trading a 3rd round pick for a young, premium player, because the logic was no matter the return (and we obviously got about as good a return as possible) the trade was still bad because we can't be giving away any picks when our roster needs as much draft capital as possible.

Was that not the argument? Now we're good with trading 3 first round picks?
And btw, where was that "hit rate" argument when we took Barkley  
Britt in VA : 1/28/2021 12:11 pm : link
in 2018. Because I recall some pro-Barkley people mentioning that, and getting shouted down because when you have the chance to take the franchise QB, no matter the risk, you take it.
Greg/JonC  
BrettNYG10 : 1/28/2021 12:12 pm : link
I'm curious, what would you guys do for Watson? Two firsts? One first and Jones?
RE: GMs are not Head coaches  
chick310 : 1/28/2021 12:13 pm : link
In comment 15136934 djm said:
Quote:
they don't impact the wins and losses like a HC can and will. If the HC sucks, especially during a full fledged crisis/rebuild phase like 17 led to, the GM won't look very good now will he.

How many GMs looked shaky before finally finding solid ground? How many looked great for years before the team completely fell apart? How come great HCs rarely every become bad ones but we see good GMs preside over bad teams all the time? Ask yourself how that happens?


Djm - interested in your answers to these questions. Can you fill in the color please with some details as not certain these are as slam-dunk as you are trying to make them out to be.

Thanks in advance.
RE: RE: We are going to argue whether Leonard Williams is worth a  
Producer : 1/28/2021 12:13 pm : link
In comment 15136951 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15136888 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


3rd round pick because we can't give up resources but we're gung ho to give up 3, maybe 4 (if we include Jones) FIRST ROUND PICKS? Seriously?



It's silly to compare a player who touches the ball on every offensive play, and directly scores points, to a player who doesn't and plays D.

I probably agree 3 firsts are too much. But what is the hit rate on first rounders becoming really good players? 50%? Pro Bowl players? 25%. So we may lose 1.5 good players to acquire a proven, great player at the most important position.

It's not that bad of a gamble...


if someone did a value analysis I would wager that three firsts wouldn't be too much. In fact it might be too little.

RE: RE: RE: We are going to argue whether Leonard Williams is worth a  
christian : 1/28/2021 12:14 pm : link
In comment 15136957 Britt in VA said:
Quote:

I'm not comparing the players or positions.

I'm comparing the outrage over trading a 3rd round pick for a young, premium player, because the logic was no matter the return (and we obviously got about as good a return as possible) the trade was still bad because we can't be giving away any picks when our roster needs as much draft capital as possible.

Was that not the argument? Now we're good with trading 3 first round picks?


You're over simplifying and and misrepresenting what a lot of posters felt. Many, many posters felt the trade was a bad proposition because Williams was not under contract, and hi longterm prospects and cost unknown.

I still don't see anyone saying the hypothetical trade is the right price. But you can't ignore Watson is under contract for 5 more years when comparing the scenarios. Huge, material difference.
RE: Greg/JonC  
Producer : 1/28/2021 12:14 pm : link
In comment 15136961 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
I'm curious, what would you guys do for Watson? Two firsts? One first and Jones?


One first and Jones is a joke. Jones couldn't get you a second round pick in return. Nobody wants Jones.
Brett  
JonC : 1/28/2021 12:16 pm : link
The problem with the proposal is you're in effect buying really high on Watson and selling low on Jones. I can't think of a similar example to draw upon either. Two #1's and Jones still presents a significant gamble for NYG. For this scenario, I think they've got to trust their evaluation on Jones for now, or find a more equitable deal to make.
RE: RE: RE: We are going to argue whether Leonard Williams is worth a  
Jim from Katonah : 1/28/2021 12:16 pm : link
In comment 15136957 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 15136951 bw in dc said:


Quote:


In comment 15136888 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


3rd round pick because we can't give up resources but we're gung ho to give up 3, maybe 4 (if we include Jones) FIRST ROUND PICKS? Seriously?



It's silly to compare a player who touches the ball on every offensive play, and directly scores points, to a player who doesn't and plays D.

I probably agree 3 firsts are too much. But what is the hit rate on first rounders becoming really good players? 50%? Pro Bowl players? 25%. So we may lose 1.5 good players to acquire a proven, great player at the most important position.

It's not that bad of a gamble...



I'm not comparing the players or positions.

I'm comparing the outrage over trading a 3rd round pick for a young, premium player, because the logic was no matter the return (and we obviously got about as good a return as possible) the trade was still bad because we can't be giving away any picks when our roster needs as much draft capital as possible.

Was that not the argument? Now we're good with trading 3 first round picks?


You apply the same value analysis to an elite young QB as you do a defensive lineman?
RE: RE: Greg/JonC  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/28/2021 12:17 pm : link
In comment 15136965 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15136961 BrettNYG10 said:


Quote:


I'm curious, what would you guys do for Watson? Two firsts? One first and Jones?



One first and Jones is a joke. Jones couldn't get you a second round pick in return. Nobody wants Jones.



Once again - something stated as fact by a poster who has no fucking clue what the demand is out there.

It's well past absurdity at this point, but even this thread has several similar comments.
RE: RE: RE: Greg/JonC  
christian : 1/28/2021 12:21 pm : link
In comment 15136970 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
In comment 15136965 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15136961 BrettNYG10 said:


Quote:


I'm curious, what would you guys do for Watson? Two firsts? One first and Jones?



One first and Jones is a joke. Jones couldn't get you a second round pick in return. Nobody wants Jones.




Once again - something stated as fact by a poster who has no fucking clue what the demand is out there.

It's well past absurdity at this point, but even this thread has several similar comments.


What do you believe Jones would fetch in a trade?
RE: Brett  
BrettNYG10 : 1/28/2021 12:22 pm : link
In comment 15136967 JonC said:
Quote:
The problem with the proposal is you're in effect buying really high on Watson and selling low on Jones. I can't think of a similar example to draw upon either. Two #1's and Jones still presents a significant gamble for NYG. For this scenario, I think they've got to trust their evaluation on Jones for now, or find a more equitable deal to make.



Thanks, Jon. I think I'm a little higher on Watson than you are, but think you're right.
I can easily see a 2nd for Jones  
UConn4523 : 1/28/2021 12:24 pm : link
why wouldn't someone like the 49ers try him (and save money on JG)? He fits perfectly in that offense too.

People are thinking too hard or are being purposely dense. There will always be a market for a mobile QB with a fairly accurate arm. Ohh and he's cheap.
RE: RE: RE: We are going to argue whether Leonard Williams is worth a  
bw in dc : 1/28/2021 12:24 pm : link
In comment 15136957 Britt in VA said:
Quote:

It's silly to compare a player who touches the ball on every offensive play, and directly scores points, to a player who doesn't and plays D.

I probably agree 3 firsts are too much. But what is the hit rate on first rounders becoming really good players? 50%? Pro Bowl players? 25%. So we may lose 1.5 good players to acquire a proven, great player at the most important position.

It's not that bad of a gamble...



I'm not comparing the players or positions.

I'm comparing the outrage over trading a 3rd round pick for a young, premium player, because the logic was no matter the return (and we obviously got about as good a return as possible) the trade was still bad because we can't be giving away any picks when our roster needs as much draft capital as possible.

Was that not the argument? Now we're good with trading 3 first round picks?


I believe the majority of the outrage for LW for two fold - 1. why are we trading for a player when we were in the midst of another losing season? 2. Since it was LW's contract year, and many of us studied the comps, the contract hit demands were likely going to be very high. Most of us who understood the market, estimates at least $16M+. Those who didn't were swimming in the laughable zone - $10M+.
RE: RE: We are going to argue whether Leonard Williams is worth a  
Bill L : 1/28/2021 12:25 pm : link
In comment 15136951 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15136888 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


3rd round pick because we can't give up resources but we're gung ho to give up 3, maybe 4 (if we include Jones) FIRST ROUND PICKS? Seriously?



It's silly to compare a player who touches the ball on every offensive play, and directly scores points, to a player who doesn't and plays D.

I probably agree 3 firsts are too much. But what is the hit rate on first rounders becoming really good players? 50%? Pro Bowl players? 25%. So we may lose 1.5 good players to acquire a proven, great player at the most important position.

It's not that bad of a gamble...


The first round is pretty broad isn't it? Is it 50% across all 32 picks or, if you binned them, would you get a different percentage? Remember, that if you really are correct about Jones, then we this year will be the latest we pick of the ensuing three drafts.
actually  
UConn4523 : 1/28/2021 12:25 pm : link
he'd fit well in SF, New Orleans, Indy, etc. If anything he'd go for more now than in normal years.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Greg/JonC  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/28/2021 12:26 pm : link
In comment 15136972 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 15136970 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


In comment 15136965 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15136961 BrettNYG10 said:


Quote:


I'm curious, what would you guys do for Watson? Two firsts? One first and Jones?



One first and Jones is a joke. Jones couldn't get you a second round pick in return. Nobody wants Jones.




Once again - something stated as fact by a poster who has no fucking clue what the demand is out there.

It's well past absurdity at this point, but even this thread has several similar comments.



What do you believe Jones would fetch in a trade?


I don't know. I'm not the one making proclamations that nobody wants him.

Certainly, even the most ignorant of posters watching a league where Teddy Bridgewater gets a starter's deal, where Josh Rosen was able to be traded, where Tyrod Taylor keeps finding a landing spot, where Ryan Fitzpatrick gets snapped up and where Matt Flynn was obtained - would have to conclude there would certainly be suitors for Jones.

But alas - that isn't the case with some of the sharp knives here.
RE: I can easily see a 2nd for Jones  
Producer : 1/28/2021 12:26 pm : link
In comment 15136975 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
why wouldn't someone like the 49ers try him (and save money on JG)? He fits perfectly in that offense too.

People are thinking too hard or are being purposely dense. There will always be a market for a mobile QB with a fairly accurate arm. Ohh and he's cheap.


The 49ers are not looking for a cheap QB. They are looking for a championship QB - now.
RE: ...  
Go Terps : 1/28/2021 12:26 pm : link
In comment 15136956 christian said:
Quote:
Just as a temp check, does anyone actually think the hypothetical (3 1st + Jones) is the right price?

I think most in favor would say something short of that, would be the sweet spot.


Obviously your prefer to give up less. Giving up Jones wouldn't matter - I don't think he has real value. Right now I think he's probably worth a 3rd/4th.

I'll repeat what I said earlier: the Giants have had 5 first rounders in the past 3 drafts. Those give guys put together don't add up to Watson.

If we had better people making the picks I might be more hesitant to trade picks. But if it's still Mara/Gettleman I'd be confident our next three first rounders won't add up to Watson.
RE: And btw, where was that  
bw in dc : 1/28/2021 12:27 pm : link
In comment 15136960 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
in 2018. Because I recall some pro-Barkley people mentioning that, and getting shouted down because when you have the chance to take the franchise QB, no matter the risk, you take it.


The Barkley debate, for the gazillionth time, was purely based on position value, not about Barkley's skills and the likelihood he would be good.

Most of us thought he would be good. We just didn't think that would translate to more wins. Thus far, his acquisition hasn't...
RE: RE: RE: We are going to argue whether Leonard Williams is worth a  
Bill L : 1/28/2021 12:27 pm : link
In comment 15136963 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15136951 bw in dc said:


Quote:


In comment 15136888 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


3rd round pick because we can't give up resources but we're gung ho to give up 3, maybe 4 (if we include Jones) FIRST ROUND PICKS? Seriously?



It's silly to compare a player who touches the ball on every offensive play, and directly scores points, to a player who doesn't and plays D.

I probably agree 3 firsts are too much. But what is the hit rate on first rounders becoming really good players? 50%? Pro Bowl players? 25%. So we may lose 1.5 good players to acquire a proven, great player at the most important position.

It's not that bad of a gamble...



if someone did a value analysis I would wager that three firsts wouldn't be too much. In fact it might be too little.


It's *four* firsts.
RE: RE: Brett  
Jim from Katonah : 1/28/2021 12:28 pm : link
In comment 15136974 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
In comment 15136967 JonC said:


Quote:


The problem with the proposal is you're in effect buying really high on Watson and selling low on Jones. I can't think of a similar example to draw upon either. Two #1's and Jones still presents a significant gamble for NYG. For this scenario, I think they've got to trust their evaluation on Jones for now, or find a more equitable deal to make.




Thanks, Jon. I think I'm a little higher on Watson than you are, but think you're right.


I think it’s actually buying low on Watson, because he’s only available because of the shit storm created by management in Houston. Franchise cornerstone QBs at his age are virtually never available.
RE: RE: I can easily see a 2nd for Jones  
UConn4523 : 1/28/2021 12:28 pm : link
In comment 15136984 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15136975 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


why wouldn't someone like the 49ers try him (and save money on JG)? He fits perfectly in that offense too.

People are thinking too hard or are being purposely dense. There will always be a market for a mobile QB with a fairly accurate arm. Ohh and he's cheap.



The 49ers are not looking for a cheap QB. They are looking for a championship QB - now.


Cool, thanks for playing.

In case you can't read I said he's also cheap. Nevermind the him fitting in well part, what good is that?
RE: RE: And btw, where was that  
Bill L : 1/28/2021 12:29 pm : link
In comment 15136986 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15136960 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


in 2018. Because I recall some pro-Barkley people mentioning that, and getting shouted down because when you have the chance to take the franchise QB, no matter the risk, you take it.



The Barkley debate, for the gazillionth time, was purely based on position value, not about Barkley's skills and the likelihood he would be good.

Most of us thought he would be good. We just didn't think that would translate to more wins. Thus far, his acquisition hasn't...


If that is the case, then it refutes the idea that we should give away all of our firsts because we would screw them up. Thomas, Lawrence, Barkley can't be considered screw-ups even if you concede that Barkley is a positional error but a super quality player.
Bill...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/28/2021 12:29 pm : link
I was going to point that out, as the same people continually calling it 3 firsts took the more stringent take when it came to the Baker trade and what was included.

Consistency isn't a strong suit for many here.
RE: ...  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 1/28/2021 12:29 pm : link
In comment 15136956 christian said:
Quote:
Just as a temp check, does anyone actually think the hypothetical (3 1st + Jones) is the right price?

I think most in favor would say something short of that, would be the sweet spot.


I think what you’re getting in return is worth a minimum of two first round picks. A third might be needed to put your proposal over the top of other teams. You’d also be selling low on Daniel Jones, but even his most ardent supporters would have to admit that it’s highly debatable what he is and will be. So two firsts and Jones is a bare minimum serious offer that probably won’t get the job done. Three first and Jones might get you something else in return like a 4th rounder.
RE: RE: RE: We are going to argue whether Leonard Williams is worth a  
bw in dc : 1/28/2021 12:30 pm : link
In comment 15136978 Bill L said:
Quote:
In comment 15136951 bw in dc said:


Quote:


In comment 15136888 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


3rd round pick because we can't give up resources but we're gung ho to give up 3, maybe 4 (if we include Jones) FIRST ROUND PICKS? Seriously?



It's silly to compare a player who touches the ball on every offensive play, and directly scores points, to a player who doesn't and plays D.

I probably agree 3 firsts are too much. But what is the hit rate on first rounders becoming really good players? 50%? Pro Bowl players? 25%. So we may lose 1.5 good players to acquire a proven, great player at the most important position.

It's not that bad of a gamble...



The first round is pretty broad isn't it? Is it 50% across all 32 picks or, if you binned them, would you get a different percentage? Remember, that if you really are correct about Jones, then we this year will be the latest we pick of the ensuing three drafts.


I think there is variation by the first round slot. Basically, I'm guessing/recalling something I read where the hit % for the first round was close to a coin toss. But that could have been top 10.
RE: RE: RE: I can easily see a 2nd for Jones  
Producer : 1/28/2021 12:31 pm : link
In comment 15136990 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 15136984 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15136975 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


why wouldn't someone like the 49ers try him (and save money on JG)? He fits perfectly in that offense too.

People are thinking too hard or are being purposely dense. There will always be a market for a mobile QB with a fairly accurate arm. Ohh and he's cheap.



The 49ers are not looking for a cheap QB. They are looking for a championship QB - now.



Cool, thanks for playing.

In case you can't read I said he's also cheap. Nevermind the him fitting in well part, what good is that?


The 49ers went to the Super Bowl last season. their window is now. Why would they give anything for our failed QB. A QB that often looks too small for the moment. Why would they do that? You think Jones is "the goods". Everybody else sees a QB who can't put it together and threw 11 TDs in a full season with an 11/10 ratio and is between 25th and 32nd in every key metric.
I don't agree on buying low on Watson  
UConn4523 : 1/28/2021 12:31 pm : link
there isn't a low its either pay a premium or he isn't to be had.

We really don't know what the end game is here. Is he threatening to sit out the year? Will they tell him to fuck off, play or sit at home? Too many unknowns but I don't see this as buying low, its simply a very tiny window to trade for a franchise QB that you would otherwise never have the opportunity to do. And if 2+ teams make offers?
For the people saying..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/28/2021 12:32 pm : link
Jones doesn't have much value - Josh rosen was traded for a 2nd rounder.

Saying Jones would be tough to fetch a 3rd/4th rounder is just sheer ignorance at this point - and likely done for dramatic effect.
Wait what?  
Bill L : 1/28/2021 12:32 pm : link
The top 10 is 50% to get a "good" player? What must the bottom 10 of the first round look like.
RE: RE: RE: RE: We are going to argue whether Leonard Williams is worth a  
Britt in VA : 1/28/2021 12:33 pm : link
In comment 15136968 Jim from Katonah said:
Quote:
In comment 15136957 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


In comment 15136951 bw in dc said:


Quote:


In comment 15136888 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


3rd round pick because we can't give up resources but we're gung ho to give up 3, maybe 4 (if we include Jones) FIRST ROUND PICKS? Seriously?



It's silly to compare a player who touches the ball on every offensive play, and directly scores points, to a player who doesn't and plays D.

I probably agree 3 firsts are too much. But what is the hit rate on first rounders becoming really good players? 50%? Pro Bowl players? 25%. So we may lose 1.5 good players to acquire a proven, great player at the most important position.

It's not that bad of a gamble...



I'm not comparing the players or positions.

I'm comparing the outrage over trading a 3rd round pick for a young, premium player, because the logic was no matter the return (and we obviously got about as good a return as possible) the trade was still bad because we can't be giving away any picks when our roster needs as much draft capital as possible.

Was that not the argument? Now we're good with trading 3 first round picks?



You apply the same value analysis to an elite young QB as you do a defensive lineman?


QB's and Pass Rushers. Those are the two defacto premium positions aren't they? One on each side of the ball?
RE: RE: ...  
BleedBlue : 1/28/2021 12:33 pm : link
In comment 15136985 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15136956 christian said:


Quote:


Just as a temp check, does anyone actually think the hypothetical (3 1st + Jones) is the right price?

I think most in favor would say something short of that, would be the sweet spot.



Obviously your prefer to give up less. Giving up Jones wouldn't matter - I don't think he has real value. Right now I think he's probably worth a 3rd/4th.

I'll repeat what I said earlier: the Giants have had 5 first rounders in the past 3 drafts. Those give guys put together don't add up to Watson.

If we had better people making the picks I might be more hesitant to trade picks. But if it's still Mara/Gettleman I'd be confident our next three first rounders won't add up to Watson.



It has gotten to the point where i pray our next GM is who YOU want so you can shut the fuck up with these stupid fucking comments.

The draft is a crapshoot. You cant kill DG for the baker pick, barkley has just been hurt. DGs last draft was VERY good despite your stupid take. His FA signings were the only reason the giants were watchable this year. I can probably find 100 posts by you talking shit about bradberry n martinez signings meanwhile both are tops at thier positions. Youre just a negative clown who likes to bitch about every move.
If the giants made this move for watson you would probably find something else to bitch about. The giants will be competing for the division next year whether you agree with their moves or not. Ao buckle up and enjoy it or go join a different miserable fan base. Your posts and comments are fucming exhuasting
Producer  
UConn4523 : 1/28/2021 12:34 pm : link
you don't like Jones, that's cool. Nothing I say will change your mind. You said he wouldn't fetch a 2nd, I actually think he could (or more). I suspect we will never know.

But SF is picking 12th and won't be in position to get a top QB unless they give up a fortune to move up so what are their options then to WIN NOW? Who's available to spend a ton on?
RE: For the people saying..  
BleedBlue : 1/28/2021 12:34 pm : link
In comment 15136999 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
Jones doesn't have much value - Josh rosen was traded for a 2nd rounder.

Saying Jones would be tough to fetch a 3rd/4th rounder is just sheer ignorance at this point - and likely done for dramatic effect.


They arw clowns. This board has become a joke.

Jones may not work out but lesser players have been traded for more
.  
Go Terps : 1/28/2021 12:35 pm : link
If Jones were on another team and a poster suggested trading a second rounder to bring him to the Giants, that poster would be crucified.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: We are going to argue whether Leonard Williams is worth a  
Jim from Katonah : 1/28/2021 12:36 pm : link
In comment 15137004 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 15136968 Jim from Katonah said:


Quote:


In comment 15136957 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


In comment 15136951 bw in dc said:


Quote:


In comment 15136888 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


3rd round pick because we can't give up resources but we're gung ho to give up 3, maybe 4 (if we include Jones) FIRST ROUND PICKS? Seriously?



It's silly to compare a player who touches the ball on every offensive play, and directly scores points, to a player who doesn't and plays D.

I probably agree 3 firsts are too much. But what is the hit rate on first rounders becoming really good players? 50%? Pro Bowl players? 25%. So we may lose 1.5 good players to acquire a proven, great player at the most important position.

It's not that bad of a gamble...



I'm not comparing the players or positions.

I'm comparing the outrage over trading a 3rd round pick for a young, premium player, because the logic was no matter the return (and we obviously got about as good a return as possible) the trade was still bad because we can't be giving away any picks when our roster needs as much draft capital as possible.

Was that not the argument? Now we're good with trading 3 first round picks?



You apply the same value analysis to an elite young QB as you do a defensive lineman?



QB's and Pass Rushers. Those are the two defacto premium positions aren't they? One on each side of the ball?


QBs stand alone in value.
RE: .  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/28/2021 12:36 pm : link
In comment 15137009 Go Terps said:
Quote:
If Jones were on another team and a poster suggested trading a second rounder to bring him to the Giants, that poster would be crucified.


You really are a fucking clown. There were posters HERE who said they would give a first rounder to get Rosen!! For the Giants.
also  
UConn4523 : 1/28/2021 12:37 pm : link
where did I say "jones is the goods"? In this very thread I supported moving on from him for the correct upgrade, as I have on countless other threads. I have no allegiance to Jones other than wanting him to succeed while he's a Giant.

I know middle ground terrifies people around here but it is very possible to want to see what Jones can do in year 3 but also wonder what an upgrade would look like and how to go about obtaining it.
RE: RE: RE: RE: We are going to argue whether Leonard Williams is worth a  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 1/28/2021 12:37 pm : link
In comment 15136988 Bill L said:
Quote:


It's *four* firsts.


It’s like taking the car off of the lot... no one would trade the Giants a first round pick for Daniel Jones right now. They would be trading him at the nadir of his value, but it’s also possible that’s what he is and he doesn’t get much better.
RE: Producer  
Producer : 1/28/2021 12:37 pm : link
In comment 15137006 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
you don't like Jones, that's cool. Nothing I say will change your mind. You said he wouldn't fetch a 2nd, I actually think he could (or more). I suspect we will never know.

But SF is picking 12th and won't be in position to get a top QB unless they give up a fortune to move up so what are their options then to WIN NOW? Who's available to spend a ton on?


I was thinking they would be a possibility for Trey Lance but it now seems Lan ce goes top-10. I really have no idea what they are thinking or what the cap possibilities are. Watson or Stafford would both be great adds for them if they could swing it.
RE: .  
Bill L : 1/28/2021 12:37 pm : link
In comment 15137009 Go Terps said:
Quote:
If Jones were on another team and a poster suggested trading a second rounder to bring him to the Giants, that poster would be crucified.

I'm sure you keep the necessary equipment close by so that's not a stretch. But I'm not sure that would fly in more knowledgeable circles.
RE: Wait what?  
bw in dc : 1/28/2021 12:39 pm : link
In comment 15137000 Bill L said:
Quote:
The top 10 is 50% to get a "good" player? What must the bottom 10 of the first round look like.


Again, I don't recall the splits. I said there is probably variation by slot/segment, probably even by position.

I would guess a top ten pick has a higher chance of being successful versus a pick in the 22-32 range. And then it blends out to some overall %.
RE: .  
UConn4523 : 1/28/2021 12:39 pm : link
In comment 15137009 Go Terps said:
Quote:
If Jones were on another team and a poster suggested trading a second rounder to bring him to the Giants, that poster would be crucified.


Who cares? Is that the benchmark?

What I want vs. what the team does are two things that never matter and never effect each other.
Exhausting is the right word...  
BubbaMojo : 1/28/2021 12:41 pm : link
Why do Go Terps and crew even follow this team? It can't be any fun being negative ALL the time (can't wait for the cute responses - like, "well, Bubba, it isn't fun sucking ALL THE TIME, is it?").

Horrible fans. The Giants have had success in about every decade of their existence. Relax a little?

Only need LBH15/Jimmy Googs to join the fray to make this thread complete.

RE: .  
Britt in VA : 1/28/2021 12:41 pm : link
In comment 15137009 Go Terps said:
Quote:
If Jones were on another team and a poster suggested trading a second rounder to bring him to the Giants, that poster would be crucified.


How many people advocated here for Josh Rosen for a 2nd without getting crucified?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Greg/JonC  
christian : 1/28/2021 12:42 pm : link
In comment 15136983 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
I don't know. I'm not the one making proclamations that nobody wants him.

Certainly, even the most ignorant of posters watching a league where Teddy Bridgewater gets a starter's deal, where Josh Rosen was able to be traded, where Tyrod Taylor keeps finding a landing spot, where Ryan Fitzpatrick gets snapped up and where Matt Flynn was obtained - would have to conclude there would certainly be suitors for Jones.

But alas - that isn't the case with some of the sharp knives here.


I'd say Jones would fetch a mid-to-late 1st. I think Rosen is a decent temp check -- he was certainly way worse than what Jones has shown. If he can grab a 2nd round pick, I think Jones would grab a 1st.
RE: RE: .  
BubbaMojo : 1/28/2021 12:42 pm : link
In comment 15137024 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 15137009 Go Terps said:


Quote:


If Jones were on another team and a poster suggested trading a second rounder to bring him to the Giants, that poster would be crucified.



How many people advocated here for Josh Rosen for a 2nd without getting crucified?


Shhh, don't say stuff like that while Go Terps et al are on their usual soapbox. It goes against their narrative.

to Get Stafford they likely are giving up  
UConn4523 : 1/28/2021 12:44 pm : link
pick #12 and I wouldn't do that if I was SF due to his injury history. But go look back at prior QB trades:

Sam Bradford - Foles and a 2nd and the year after a 1st and 4th
Alex Smith - Two 2nds and then a 3rd and Fuller
Carson Palmer - a 1st and 2nd

No idea the cap situation for all of those trades but it just shows that Stafford likely nets 1 if not 2 premium picks.
RE: RE: .  
BleedBlue : 1/28/2021 12:44 pm : link
In comment 15137013 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
In comment 15137009 Go Terps said:


Quote:


If Jones were on another team and a poster suggested trading a second rounder to bring him to the Giants, that poster would be crucified.



You really are a fucking clown. There were posters HERE who said they would give a first rounder to get Rosen!! For the Giants.


He is a fucking moron. His takes are shit. His attitude and posts are exhuasting.

I wish he would gargle lamars balls and leave the board.
RE: RE: .  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/28/2021 12:44 pm : link
In comment 15137024 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 15137009 Go Terps said:


Quote:


If Jones were on another team and a poster suggested trading a second rounder to bring him to the Giants, that poster would be crucified.



How many people advocated here for Josh Rosen for a 2nd without getting crucified?


One of them was bw. He said a 2nd - but then raised it up to a 1st!!!

Quote:
Over on the QB prospects thread...
bw in dc : 4/24/2019 3:29 pm : link
Sy wrote this about Rosen and his first year with Arizona:

He has the worst supporting cast in football, more specifically the offensive line.

He showed toughness and grit and stayed focused and driven despite the crappy situation....those were the 2 red flags from the media at this time last year.

If you made a cut up of the top 100 throws in the NFL last year, Rosen has at least 5 of them. He fit some balls in to windows that very few guys can. His mechanics stayed clean, he tried to stand tall against pressure even when everyone knew the rush was gonna reach him within 3 seconds.

If Rosen was on CLE last year, he outplays Mayfield in my opinion.

I was very pleased to read this, and it supported many things I have written about Rosen last year in Arizona.

With that said, I agree that we should leverage our 17th pick for Rosen. I was stuck on just a second round pick - tops. But this QB class is too underwhelming. We really need to get this done...


My God that is a steaming pile of shit post!!
RE: RE: RE: .  
BubbaMojo : 1/28/2021 12:45 pm : link
In comment 15137032 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
In comment 15137024 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


In comment 15137009 Go Terps said:


Quote:


If Jones were on another team and a poster suggested trading a second rounder to bring him to the Giants, that poster would be crucified.



How many people advocated here for Josh Rosen for a 2nd without getting crucified?



One of them was bw. He said a 2nd - but then raised it up to a 1st!!!



Quote:


Over on the QB prospects thread...
bw in dc : 4/24/2019 3:29 pm : link
Sy wrote this about Rosen and his first year with Arizona:

He has the worst supporting cast in football, more specifically the offensive line.

He showed toughness and grit and stayed focused and driven despite the crappy situation....those were the 2 red flags from the media at this time last year.

If you made a cut up of the top 100 throws in the NFL last year, Rosen has at least 5 of them. He fit some balls in to windows that very few guys can. His mechanics stayed clean, he tried to stand tall against pressure even when everyone knew the rush was gonna reach him within 3 seconds.

If Rosen was on CLE last year, he outplays Mayfield in my opinion.

I was very pleased to read this, and it supported many things I have written about Rosen last year in Arizona.

With that said, I agree that we should leverage our 17th pick for Rosen. I was stuck on just a second round pick - tops. But this QB class is too underwhelming. We really need to get this done...



My God that is a steaming pile of shit post!!


That is so tasty to read. Laugh out loud funny. CLOWN.
Bill L...  
bw in dc : 1/28/2021 12:45 pm : link
FYI. I just gave this a quick read. It's about five years old, but it is a healthy sample size that was studied.

Doesn't drill down to a "good player" status, but it does get to pro bowl level and "bust" level. You could probably make some subjective assumptions what the %s are for someone good...
First Round Draft History - ( New Window )
Take notes Jordan Raanan  
BigBlueCane : 1/28/2021 12:46 pm : link
this is how you make a POS Click-bait trash post.

That's all this is.

I think it would be great if the Giants, internally, did their due  
Britt in VA : 1/28/2021 12:46 pm : link
diligence, decided it would be worth it, and put together a package and actually pulled off a trade for Jones. I'd be super excited about it.

That said, some of the inconsistency in logic displayed on this thread as it pertains to what the Giants do or don't do is pretty apparent.
RE: RE: RE: RE: .  
BleedBlue : 1/28/2021 12:48 pm : link
In comment 15137036 BubbaMojo said:
Quote:
In comment 15137032 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


In comment 15137024 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


In comment 15137009 Go Terps said:


Quote:


If Jones were on another team and a poster suggested trading a second rounder to bring him to the Giants, that poster would be crucified.



How many people advocated here for Josh Rosen for a 2nd without getting crucified?



One of them was bw. He said a 2nd - but then raised it up to a 1st!!!



Quote:


Over on the QB prospects thread...
bw in dc : 4/24/2019 3:29 pm : link
Sy wrote this about Rosen and his first year with Arizona:

He has the worst supporting cast in football, more specifically the offensive line.

He showed toughness and grit and stayed focused and driven despite the crappy situation....those were the 2 red flags from the media at this time last year.

If you made a cut up of the top 100 throws in the NFL last year, Rosen has at least 5 of them. He fit some balls in to windows that very few guys can. His mechanics stayed clean, he tried to stand tall against pressure even when everyone knew the rush was gonna reach him within 3 seconds.

If Rosen was on CLE last year, he outplays Mayfield in my opinion.

I was very pleased to read this, and it supported many things I have written about Rosen last year in Arizona.

With that said, I agree that we should leverage our 17th pick for Rosen. I was stuck on just a second round pick - tops. But this QB class is too underwhelming. We really need to get this done...



My God that is a steaming pile of shit post!!



That is so tasty to read. Laugh out loud funny. CLOWN.


I enjoyed it as well. Even the great bw can be wrong. See being a GM isnt easy and everypme evals differently
NOBODY bats 1000
RE: RE: RE: .  
bw in dc : 1/28/2021 12:49 pm : link
In comment 15137032 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
In comment 15137024 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


In comment 15137009 Go Terps said:


Quote:


If Jones were on another team and a poster suggested trading a second rounder to bring him to the Giants, that poster would be crucified.



How many people advocated here for Josh Rosen for a 2nd without getting crucified?



One of them was bw. He said a 2nd - but then raised it up to a 1st!!!



Quote:


Over on the QB prospects thread...
bw in dc : 4/24/2019 3:29 pm : link
Sy wrote this about Rosen and his first year with Arizona:

He has the worst supporting cast in football, more specifically the offensive line.

He showed toughness and grit and stayed focused and driven despite the crappy situation....those were the 2 red flags from the media at this time last year.

If you made a cut up of the top 100 throws in the NFL last year, Rosen has at least 5 of them. He fit some balls in to windows that very few guys can. His mechanics stayed clean, he tried to stand tall against pressure even when everyone knew the rush was gonna reach him within 3 seconds.

If Rosen was on CLE last year, he outplays Mayfield in my opinion.

I was very pleased to read this, and it supported many things I have written about Rosen last year in Arizona.

With that said, I agree that we should leverage our 17th pick for Rosen. I was stuck on just a second round pick - tops. But this QB class is too underwhelming. We really need to get this done...



My God that is a steaming pile of shit post!!


And? I haven't raised anything in this dialogue about Rosen or what Jones would fetch in a direct trade.

As usual, you are confusing me with others.
RE: Bill L...  
Bill L : 1/28/2021 12:50 pm : link
In comment 15137037 bw in dc said:
Quote:
FYI. I just gave this a quick read. It's about five years old, but it is a healthy sample size that was studied.

Doesn't drill down to a "good player" status, but it does get to pro bowl level and "bust" level. You could probably make some subjective assumptions what the %s are for someone good... First Round Draft History - ( New Window )


Thanks. It looks like if you are top 10 you have pretty close to a 40% change of getting a Pro Bowler. I would define good as less than a pro bowler but I'm an easy grader.
I don't have time to read through all this  
Greg from LI : 1/28/2021 12:51 pm : link
Why are we talking about Rosen??
RE: RE: RE: RE: .  
BubbaMojo : 1/28/2021 12:51 pm : link
In comment 15137042 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15137032 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


In comment 15137024 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


In comment 15137009 Go Terps said:


Quote:


If Jones were on another team and a poster suggested trading a second rounder to bring him to the Giants, that poster would be crucified.



How many people advocated here for Josh Rosen for a 2nd without getting crucified?



One of them was bw. He said a 2nd - but then raised it up to a 1st!!!



Quote:


Over on the QB prospects thread...
bw in dc : 4/24/2019 3:29 pm : link
Sy wrote this about Rosen and his first year with Arizona:

He has the worst supporting cast in football, more specifically the offensive line.

He showed toughness and grit and stayed focused and driven despite the crappy situation....those were the 2 red flags from the media at this time last year.

If you made a cut up of the top 100 throws in the NFL last year, Rosen has at least 5 of them. He fit some balls in to windows that very few guys can. His mechanics stayed clean, he tried to stand tall against pressure even when everyone knew the rush was gonna reach him within 3 seconds.

If Rosen was on CLE last year, he outplays Mayfield in my opinion.

I was very pleased to read this, and it supported many things I have written about Rosen last year in Arizona.

With that said, I agree that we should leverage our 17th pick for Rosen. I was stuck on just a second round pick - tops. But this QB class is too underwhelming. We really need to get this done...



My God that is a steaming pile of shit post!!



And? I haven't raised anything in this dialogue about Rosen or what Jones would fetch in a direct trade.

As usual, you are confusing me with others.


A 1st for Rosen!!!!!!! Clown. LOLOLOLOLOL. Not so easy being a GM, is it?!
RE: to Get Stafford they likely are giving up  
Producer : 1/28/2021 12:52 pm : link
In comment 15137030 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
pick #12 and I wouldn't do that if I was SF due to his injury history. But go look back at prior QB trades:

Sam Bradford - Foles and a 2nd and the year after a 1st and 4th
Alex Smith - Two 2nds and then a 3rd and Fuller
Carson Palmer - a 1st and 2nd

No idea the cap situation for all of those trades but it just shows that Stafford likely nets 1 if not 2 premium picks.


I don't know what leverage the Lions have. On value, yes Stafford may be worth a mid first. What the Lions will settle for, I don't know, a 2nd and a 4th maybe? They said they want to move on. I'm just guessing.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: .  
bw in dc : 1/28/2021 12:55 pm : link
In comment 15137048 BubbaMojo said:
Quote:


A 1st for Rosen!!!!!!! Clown. LOLOLOLOLOL. Not so easy being a GM, is it?!


I really don't get the point. This is a discussion about Watson and the possible comp required to attain him.

The date of that post is 2019 before the 2019 draft and rumors were popping up that Arizona might draft Murray and trade Rosen. And, if I recall, many experts that Arizona could fetch a first at the time.
RE: I think it would be great if the Giants, internally, did their due  
BubbaMojo : 1/28/2021 12:55 pm : link
In comment 15137040 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
diligence, decided it would be worth it, and put together a package and actually pulled off a trade for Jones. I'd be super excited about it.

That said, some of the inconsistency in logic displayed on this thread as it pertains to what the Giants do or don't do is pretty apparent.


This is the right approach, to get back to Watson. Trust the Giants (with Judge) are doing their due diligence on a potential trade, and if they feel it is worth it, put a package together for Watson.

I would be over the moon if we made a deal for Watson.
bw..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/28/2021 12:55 pm : link
not confusing you with anyone.

Simply contradicting that Go Terps said emphatically that if Jones was on another team that anyone who suggested trading a 2nd for him would be crucified.

I'm guessing he didn't crucify you for suggesting that Rosen should fetch a 1st as galactically stupid as that recommendation was.
anyway, to answer Brett's question...  
Greg from LI : 1/28/2021 12:56 pm : link
Hard to say - Jones, a first, a two lesser picks, say a second and a fourth? Who knows if that works for Houston or not, but I would generally shy away from multiple firsts.
RE: anyway, to answer Brett's question...  
Britt in VA : 1/28/2021 12:57 pm : link
In comment 15137055 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
Hard to say - Jones, a first, a two lesser picks, say a second and a fourth? Who knows if that works for Houston or not, but I would generally shy away from multiple firsts.


I could get on board with this.
RE: bw..  
BubbaMojo : 1/28/2021 12:58 pm : link
In comment 15137054 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
not confusing you with anyone.

Simply contradicting that Go Terps said emphatically that if Jones was on another team that anyone who suggested trading a 2nd for him would be crucified.

I'm guessing he didn't crucify you for suggesting that Rosen should fetch a 1st as galactically stupid as that recommendation was.


Impossible, Go Terps is NEVER wrong.
The irony of the Jones  
Producer : 1/28/2021 12:59 pm : link
2nd round pick talk is that many observers didn't think Jones was worth a 2nd round pick in 2019. And so far he has proved his 2019 critics correct. If I'm another team I wouldn't consider a second for Jones. And certainly not a first.
I think the debate can be summarized  
pjcas18 : 1/28/2021 1:00 pm : link
as almost everyone agrees Watson is a legit franchise QB and a significant upgrade over Jones.

the debate is about the price to acquire Watson.

The price cannot inhibit the Giants ability to field a competitive team but also needs to be enough for HOU to be interested.

Exactly what a fair price is that would entice Houston and allow the Giants to compete is how this would work and therein lies the debate.

Captain obvious?
RE: anyway, to answer Brett's question...  
Producer : 1/28/2021 1:00 pm : link
In comment 15137055 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
Hard to say - Jones, a first, a two lesser picks, say a second and a fourth? Who knows if that works for Houston or not, but I would generally shy away from multiple firsts.


And maybe the Yankees can get Mike Trout for a couple of AAA pitchers. What do you think?
RE: RE: anyway, to answer Brett's question...  
BubbaMojo : 1/28/2021 1:01 pm : link
In comment 15137064 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15137055 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


Hard to say - Jones, a first, a two lesser picks, say a second and a fourth? Who knows if that works for Houston or not, but I would generally shy away from multiple firsts.



And maybe the Yankees can get Mike Trout for a couple of AAA pitchers. What do you think?


Go Terps' right hand clown.
RE: I don't have time to read through all this  
Go Terps : 1/28/2021 1:02 pm : link
In comment 15137046 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
Why are we talking about Rosen??


Anything to distract from what Jones was in 2020. In the past two days we've probably seen 50 QBs from the past mentioned.

Jones was one of the very first quarterbacks in the NFL in 2020. The rest is noise.
RE: RE: RE: anyway, to answer Brett's question...  
Producer : 1/28/2021 1:04 pm : link
In comment 15137066 BubbaMojo said:
Quote:
In comment 15137064 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15137055 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


Hard to say - Jones, a first, a two lesser picks, say a second and a fourth? Who knows if that works for Houston or not, but I would generally shy away from multiple firsts.



And maybe the Yankees can get Mike Trout for a couple of AAA pitchers. What do you think?



Go Terps' right hand clown.


because a QB with 11TDs and 10INTs in a full season and ranks 25th to 32nd in every key metric is obviously a prized resource that every team will pony up for. Just admit you can't be objective due to your homerism and until Jones is cut from the squad you think he's the cat's meow.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Greg/JonC  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 1/28/2021 1:06 pm : link
In comment 15137025 christian said:
Quote:




I'd say Jones would fetch a mid-to-late 1st. I think Rosen is a decent temp check -- he was certainly way worse than what Jones has shown. If he can grab a 2nd round pick, I think Jones would grab a 1st.


I find that hard to believe, but anything is possible. I think Sam Darnold would definitely fetch a first round pick and he hasn’t been particularly good through 3 seasons.
I  
AcidTest : 1/28/2021 1:06 pm : link
think a lot of teams would trade a second for Jones. They would recognize what so many here don't, namely that he has demonstrated toughness and leadership, made some excellent throws, can run, and has almost no weapons. A second is a small investment to see if that talent can be developed in a better offense, especially in a QB starved league.

As far as Rosen is concerned, I am not going to rewrite history. I wanted to trade #37 for him. I was in love with his flawless mechanics and accuracy, and thought he was in a very bad situation in Arizona.
RE: bw..  
bw in dc : 1/28/2021 1:07 pm : link
In comment 15137054 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
not confusing you with anyone.

Simply contradicting that Go Terps said emphatically that if Jones was on another team that anyone who suggested trading a 2nd for him would be crucified.

I'm guessing he didn't crucify you for suggesting that Rosen should fetch a 1st as galactically stupid as that recommendation was.


Whatever. If that helps you prove some point, good one - I guess.
RE: RE: RE: RE: anyway, to answer Brett's question...  
BubbaMojo : 1/28/2021 1:08 pm : link
In comment 15137071 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15137066 BubbaMojo said:


Quote:


In comment 15137064 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15137055 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


Hard to say - Jones, a first, a two lesser picks, say a second and a fourth? Who knows if that works for Houston or not, but I would generally shy away from multiple firsts.



And maybe the Yankees can get Mike Trout for a couple of AAA pitchers. What do you think?



Go Terps' right hand clown.



because a QB with 11TDs and 10INTs in a full season and ranks 25th to 32nd in every key metric is obviously a prized resource that every team will pony up for. Just admit you can't be objective due to your homerism and until Jones is cut from the squad you think he's the cat's meow.


And this is why your logic is so flawed. You, Go Terps, et al believe it is either black or white. Nothing in between.

When, in fact, there are A LOT of people on this board that can recognize that Jones has to get better, Gettleman has to get better (or get fired; I would have been fine with replacing him after this last season), and Judge has to continue showing he is the goods.

This gray area can recognize the above, but at the same time believe Jones needs another year, with hopefully more talent around him, to show us if he's the future or not.

If he's not, cut bait and move on. But NOBODY can say with certainty that Jones is, or isn't, the answer right now. I believe year 3 will help decide that. People making definitive statements one way or the other are just ignorant a-holes.
Unless Judge low key is not as high on DJ  
Judge_and_Jury : 1/28/2021 1:08 pm : link
As the org is....NYG likely aren't trading for another QB
It's a logic trap.  
Britt in VA : 1/28/2021 1:09 pm : link
Anybody that says that Jones has shown nothing in the NFL other than being a career backup can't then turn around and say he's worth a 1st or 2nd round pick, because that would be a contradiction of how they evaluate Jones.
Why does it always turn ...  
Jim from Katonah : 1/28/2021 1:10 pm : link
... to calling people clowns etc.? We’re just noodling around a bit with football, the insults really get in the way of a good fun debate. Sheesh.
RE: anyway, to answer Brett's question...  
BrettNYG10 : 1/28/2021 1:10 pm : link
In comment 15137055 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
Hard to say - Jones, a first, a two lesser picks, say a second and a fourth? Who knows if that works for Houston or not, but I would generally shy away from multiple firsts.


Thanks. I think I'd do that but suspect HOU says no.
RE: RE: I don't have time to read through all this  
Go Terps : 1/28/2021 1:12 pm : link
In comment 15137069 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15137046 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


Why are we talking about Rosen??



Anything to distract from what Jones was in 2020. In the past two days we've probably seen 50 QBs from the past mentioned.

Jones was one of the very first quarterbacks in the NFL in 2020. The rest is noise.


*worst, obviously...definitely not first.
RE: RE: I don't have time to read through all this  
UConn4523 : 1/28/2021 1:17 pm : link
In comment 15137069 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15137046 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


Why are we talking about Rosen??



Anything to distract from what Jones was in 2020. In the past two days we've probably seen 50 QBs from the past mentioned.

Jones was one of the very first quarterbacks in the NFL in 2020. The rest is noise.


That's pretty unfair. I realize that isn't directed towards everyone but some people actually have been speaking to the scenario with an open mind.

The Rosen comp matters because A. it happened recently and B. he looked like Sudfeld did in week 17 yet still netted at 2nd.

I think the mistake you are making is comparing Jones to the elite (which he's not) and then applying that logic to any any everyone on opposing teams thinking they should only want an elite QB.

Look at Tannehill. I thought he stunk, turns out he needed to go to a place with a better supporting cast and a system that fit him. I completely understand you not wanting to wait for the Giants to make that cozy sweet spot of a team for Jones to excel in but other teams can offer that, hence his trade value.

Would San Fran, Indy or New Orleans not be good fits for Jones to showcase what he does well? For New Orleans, who really can't move up for a QB, is a 2nd really even that expensive to maybe hit on a solid QB who can probably run the offense in tandem with Hill?

In sum, you can't want Giants fans to be open minded about everything and then claim opposing teams GM/fans shouldn't be open to what Jones can offer just because you don't like what you see from him.
I never thought all that much of either Rosen or Darnold  
Greg from LI : 1/28/2021 1:18 pm : link
But I did love Tua in college, so if he never is more than average, you can hang that one around my neck.
Pardon the Interruption..  
GManinDC : 1/28/2021 1:19 pm : link
But I wanted to put this out there:

They were talking on the radio about the WFT and getting Watson or Stafford. And the host was saying 2 1sts for Watson and a player and a 1st for Stafford and a player or picks. Most of the fans that called in was all for it. Either one and scenario. So there's that..


You can continue the "debate". I got some Twizzlers if y'all get hungry..
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: anyway, to answer Brett's question...  
Producer : 1/28/2021 1:20 pm : link
In comment 15137078 BubbaMojo said:
Quote:
In comment 15137071 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15137066 BubbaMojo said:


Quote:


In comment 15137064 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15137055 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


Hard to say - Jones, a first, a two lesser picks, say a second and a fourth? Who knows if that works for Houston or not, but I would generally shy away from multiple firsts.



And maybe the Yankees can get Mike Trout for a couple of AAA pitchers. What do you think?



Go Terps' right hand clown.



because a QB with 11TDs and 10INTs in a full season and ranks 25th to 32nd in every key metric is obviously a prized resource that every team will pony up for. Just admit you can't be objective due to your homerism and until Jones is cut from the squad you think he's the cat's meow.



And this is why your logic is so flawed. You, Go Terps, et al believe it is either black or white. Nothing in between.

When, in fact, there are A LOT of people on this board that can recognize that Jones has to get better, Gettleman has to get better (or get fired; I would have been fine with replacing him after this last season), and Judge has to continue showing he is the goods.

This gray area can recognize the above, but at the same time believe Jones needs another year, with hopefully more talent around him, to show us if he's the future or not.

If he's not, cut bait and move on. But NOBODY can say with certainty that Jones is, or isn't, the answer right now. I believe year 3 will help decide that. People making definitive statements one way or the other are just ignorant a-holes.


but why must we wait for Jones to prove something when most elite QBs show it right away? Why can't we prepare for a back up plan now? That is what a smart organization does. they don't wait for years. Reid didn't wait for Alex Smith (a very good QB at the time). The Saints were ready to draft Mahomes even though they had Brees. We have Jones, who has been awful. Why do we have to "wait" for him?
RE: Pardon the Interruption..  
Britt in VA : 1/28/2021 1:21 pm : link
In comment 15137097 GManinDC said:
Quote:
But I wanted to put this out there:

They were talking on the radio about the WFT and getting Watson or Stafford. And the host was saying 2 1sts for Watson and a player and a 1st for Stafford and a player or picks. Most of the fans that called in was all for it. Either one and scenario. So there's that..


You can continue the "debate". I got some Twizzlers if y'all get hungry..


I would actually consider 2 firsts and a player (if that player was Jones) for Watson. I think I could live with that.
Want no part of Stafford.  
Britt in VA : 1/28/2021 1:21 pm : link
.
RE: I never thought all that much of either Rosen or Darnold  
UConn4523 : 1/28/2021 1:22 pm : link
In comment 15137093 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
But I did love Tua in college, so if he never is more than average, you can hang that one around my neck.


Tua is so weird. Jumps off the screen in college but that throwing motion and his injuries are just too much for me. Curious to see him in year 2 for sure, no idea what to expect.
UConn  
Go Terps : 1/28/2021 1:23 pm : link
If I'm a fan of another team and I've watched Giants games these past two years I want no part of Jones as a starter. That's especially true this offseason, where there are going to be a bunch of QBs looking for new teams.

No pocket presence, slow throwing motion, and poor ball security are not problems that go away.

The Giants blew the pick. They panicked about their QB situation, reached, and overdrafted him. It happens. Now it's just a matter of how long it will take them to realize it.
RE: Why does it always turn ...  
MyNameIsMyName : 1/28/2021 1:24 pm : link
In comment 15137082 Jim from Katonah said:
Quote:
... to calling people clowns etc.? We’re just noodling around a bit with football, the insults really get in the way of a good fun debate. Sheesh.


Just look who’s doing it. It’s the usual from them
I'd do Jones, #11  
bigbluehoya : 1/28/2021 1:25 pm : link
and one more future first round pick.

If the Giants had more short term cap space (ala Jags, Jets), I could wrap my head around giving up a little bit more. But if you're moving 1st rounders to pay a QB $20-30m/year, you need to start winning immediately.

Right now I think there is too much unproductive $, and cleaning it up is going to take another season or two (to either just ride out the bad deals, or to cut them now and take the dead $ medicine).

Watson is one of my favorite players in the league, but I don't think it works well for NYG right now.
RE: RE: Pardon the Interruption..  
GManinDC : 1/28/2021 1:29 pm : link
In comment 15137100 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 15137097 GManinDC said:


Quote:


But I wanted to put this out there:

They were talking on the radio about the WFT and getting Watson or Stafford. And the host was saying 2 1sts for Watson and a player and a 1st for Stafford and a player or picks. Most of the fans that called in was all for it. Either one and scenario. So there's that..


You can continue the "debate". I got some Twizzlers if y'all get hungry..



I would actually consider 2 firsts and a player (if that player was Jones) for Watson. I think I could live with that.


I wouldn't trade Jones this year. I would give him this year to see how the team around him is. I expected him to struggle this year so I am not really concerned right now..
RE: UConn  
UConn4523 : 1/28/2021 1:29 pm : link
In comment 15137104 Go Terps said:
Quote:
If I'm a fan of another team and I've watched Giants games these past two years I want no part of Jones as a starter. That's especially true this offseason, where there are going to be a bunch of QBs looking for new teams.

No pocket presence, slow throwing motion, and poor ball security are not problems that go away.

The Giants blew the pick. They panicked about their QB situation, reached, and overdrafted him. It happens. Now it's just a matter of how long it will take them to realize it.


That's fine, but my point is plenty shared similar thoughts on a guy like Tannehill who's flourishing in a better system.

It is unfair to think Jones wouldn't do better on a better team and I suspect plenty of NFL personnel don't agree with you. Which is my point - what you want if you are an opposing fan couldn't be any less relevant.
ohh and go look at Tanehill's first couple of years in Miami  
UConn4523 : 1/28/2021 1:31 pm : link
they were eerily similar to Jones'.
UConn  
Go Terps : 1/28/2021 1:32 pm : link
Why do you suspect NFL personnel would disagree? What is that based on?

What I'm seeing is that opposing coaches know his ball security and pocket presence stink, so they are emphasizing attacking him in the pocket and separating him from the ball.

The book is out on Jones.
And what does Tannehill have to do with Jones?  
Go Terps : 1/28/2021 1:33 pm : link
They aren't similar players.
RE: RE: RE: Pardon the Interruption..  
Britt in VA : 1/28/2021 1:33 pm : link
In comment 15137115 GManinDC said:
Quote:
In comment 15137100 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


In comment 15137097 GManinDC said:


Quote:


But I wanted to put this out there:

They were talking on the radio about the WFT and getting Watson or Stafford. And the host was saying 2 1sts for Watson and a player and a 1st for Stafford and a player or picks. Most of the fans that called in was all for it. Either one and scenario. So there's that..


You can continue the "debate". I got some Twizzlers if y'all get hungry..



I would actually consider 2 firsts and a player (if that player was Jones) for Watson. I think I could live with that.



I wouldn't trade Jones this year. I would give him this year to see how the team around him is. I expected him to struggle this year so I am not really concerned right now..


I'm fine with keeping Jones and giving him his third year and always have been. I think he has much more potential than he is given credit for, here. However, this is an unexpected situation happening with Watson and if they (The Giants) did their due diligence with it and decided it was better to go with Watson and trade Jones plus whatever capital goes with him I would be pretty excited about.
RE: UConn  
UConn4523 : 1/28/2021 1:38 pm : link
In comment 15137123 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Why do you suspect NFL personnel would disagree? What is that based on?

What I'm seeing is that opposing coaches know his ball security and pocket presence stink, so they are emphasizing attacking him in the pocket and separating him from the ball.

The book is out on Jones.


Its based on the transactions and trends we all see each and every year - the reason Rosen was brought up, in fact. I know you want a very black and white answer but I don't have that for you.

You want "proof" for something that has so little context to begin with. If the proof was easy for us both to point to we wouldn't be sitting here talking about trading Jones away - he'd be someone we'd unanimously agree is our future.

Also, i think 2nd round picks are completely overvalued here and its a fairly small price to pay for possibly getting your next QB even if they end up only being decent.
RE: RE: RE: RE: anyway, to answer Brett's question...  
djm : 1/28/2021 1:38 pm : link
In comment 15137071 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15137066 BubbaMojo said:


Quote:


In comment 15137064 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15137055 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


Hard to say - Jones, a first, a two lesser picks, say a second and a fourth? Who knows if that works for Houston or not, but I would generally shy away from multiple firsts.



And maybe the Yankees can get Mike Trout for a couple of AAA pitchers. What do you think?



Go Terps' right hand clown.



because a QB with 11TDs and 10INTs in a full season and ranks 25th to 32nd in every key metric is obviously a prized resource that every team will pony up for. Just admit you can't be objective due to your homerism and until Jones is cut from the squad you think he's the cat's meow.


objective? you sound like a fan who has never seen a qb improve. Never? You're a broken fucking record.
Being "average" terrifies people  
UConn4523 : 1/28/2021 1:43 pm : link
its actually quite interesting to see. 10+ teams would sign up for average QB play right now. I completely understand wanting to be better than that but its usually not realistic outside of making a drastic change (like trading 3 firsts for Watson) which can also backfire.
RE: RE: GMs are not Head coaches  
djm : 1/28/2021 1:46 pm : link
In comment 15136938 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 15136934 djm said:


Quote:


they don't impact the wins and losses like a HC can and will. If the HC sucks, especially during a full fledged crisis/rebuild phase like 17 led to, the GM won't look very good now will he.

How many GMs looked shaky before finally finding solid ground? How many looked great for years before the team completely fell apart? How come great HCs rarely every become bad ones but we see good GMs preside over bad teams all the time? Ask yourself how that happens?



What's the expiration date for this reasoning, or is there one? How long does Gettleman get a pass for horrid teams? One more year? Two? Three?


It depends. Not everything is that black and white. Let's say the GM did have a big say in why a team is struggling, that doesn't mean the same GM will not lead that same team to prominence. There are mitigating factors but if the Giants have another losing season and Jones isn't showing enough to believe in, DG likely is shown the door. I couldn't argue with that if it came to pass but I don't like to lay down blanket statements like that because who knows what unfolds next season. The entire team could be injured like oh, say the 1983 Giants or the 2006 Giants.

I saw enough personnel promise this season to buy DG another off-season.
RE: Being  
Go Terps : 1/28/2021 1:48 pm : link
In comment 15137143 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
its actually quite interesting to see. 10+ teams would sign up for average QB play right now. I completely understand wanting to be better than that but its usually not realistic outside of making a drastic change (like trading 3 firsts for Watson) which can also backfire.


Jones isn't average though. We're lowering our standards down to hoping he becomes average. You see it even from his supporters, who are now trying to sell everyone (especially themselves) on the idea that you don't need a great QB to win in the NFL.

Jones is below average. Maybe he'll get to average, and he likely won't get to very good and almost certainly not great.
I sound like someone who stubbornly defends the status quo  
djm : 1/28/2021 1:50 pm : link
I am anything but. I was destroying Mcadoo after week 1 of the 2017 season. I was destroying Fassel after the philly loss when Westbrook took that PR to the house. I was killing Reese (admittedly, late) early on 2017 too.

I hate when the Giants are losing like this. Life isn't as enjoyable. I would sell my soul for a PAts like run from this franchise. I want to win more than anyone believe me. I just don't think firing the GM and bringing in someone else is this end all be all panacea. Blood on the ground doesn't always help things improve.

I also have no doubt that some, not all but some here simply want punishment. Someone has to pay. Doesn't matter if it leads to better things, someone has to be held accountable. I don't think that way.
RE: I don't have time to read through all this  
djm : 1/28/2021 1:57 pm : link
In comment 15137046 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
Why are we talking about Rosen??


because this thread has gone full stupid.

Who the fuck cares what Jones would fetch in a trade? Some of the "experts" here, there and everywhere were shouting from the hilltops that Eli Manning was an overrated bust while the guy was winning division titles here.

Who cares? Jones isn't a finished product yet! And if he is, well, we can bow our heads to the almighty poster here who JUST KNEW this. I don't give a fuck. The coach wants Jones, we go with Jones. Fucking deal with it.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: anyway, to answer Brett's question...  
BubbaMojo : 1/28/2021 1:58 pm : link
In comment 15137098 Producer said:
Quote:

but why must we wait for Jones to prove something when most elite QBs show it right away? Why can't we prepare for a back up plan now? That is what a smart organization does. they don't wait for years. Reid didn't wait for Alex Smith (a very good QB at the time). The Saints were ready to draft Mahomes even though they had Brees. We have Jones, who has been awful. Why do we have to "wait" for him?


I agree with you there. I guess I actually believe our organization is going through this evaluative process as we speak. They are evaluating the available QBs and determining if it is worth pursuing. Maybe I have too much faith in the organization that they are doing this. But maybe you don't have enough faith?

If they determine that it is better to stick with Jones (maybe because the compensation was too much in their eyes to pull the trigger on a trade?), I am hoping that Jones shows great strides this upcoming season and shows us he can be a franchise QB. Maybe it works out, maybe it doesn't. If not, I will have no problem cutting bait and moving on. But I'm hoping Jones succeeds; are you?

If the organization determines the value is right to make a trade and move on from Jones, I will be excited as well. I will root like hell for our new QB to succeed.

Just don't like the definitive statements that Jones is (or isn't) the answer. Nobody knows that yet.
Accountability is a bad thing?  
Greg from LI : 1/28/2021 1:58 pm : link
Then why did you want Reese fired?

It has nothing to do with "punishment". Gettleman has done a terrible job. Why shouldn't he be held responsible for that?
djm  
Go Terps : 1/28/2021 1:59 pm : link
It's not punishment we want. We want improvement.

We warned in 2018 about hiring Gettleman, about drafting Barkley, about sticking with Eli. We've warned about the other missteps since as they were happening. You and others were there spouting the same bullshit you're spouting now about patience, about not being negative, and so on.

15-33. Three years thrown away.
RE: RE: Being  
UConn4523 : 1/28/2021 2:02 pm : link
In comment 15137148 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15137143 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


its actually quite interesting to see. 10+ teams would sign up for average QB play right now. I completely understand wanting to be better than that but its usually not realistic outside of making a drastic change (like trading 3 firsts for Watson) which can also backfire.



Jones isn't average though. We're lowering our standards down to hoping he becomes average. You see it even from his supporters, who are now trying to sell everyone (especially themselves) on the idea that you don't need a great QB to win in the NFL.

Jones is below average. Maybe he'll get to average, and he likely won't get to very good and almost certainly not great.


Well no, now you are making stuff up. I just got through telling you that I think he'd fit in well on 3 teams, two of which have dominant run games. I think Jones can be average for them and that average could be good enough, while keeping their assets and cap room to get better.

Look, I really don't care to convince you of anything. But stop telling people what they should want. I'd love a Pat Mahomes but we don't have one nor are we getting one. So its time to live in the real world (something you so often lecture on) and realize we likely have to work with what we got out side of a very drastic hail mary.

In the grand scheme of things you and I aren't far off, but I'm not as far as you on the other end of the extreme.
Terps  
adamg : 1/28/2021 2:05 pm : link
You can win without an elite QB though...
We don't have enough resources to trade for Deshaun Watson  
dpinzow : 1/28/2021 2:06 pm : link
but the Giants better try. Unlike Stafford who is near the end, I'd move heaven and earth to get Watson who is 25 and is a top 5 QB
UConn  
Go Terps : 1/28/2021 2:07 pm : link
I'm not making anything up...you're guessing what Jones would be elsewhere. I'm going on what Jones has shown us in two years in the NFL.

Maybe Jones could be average elsewhere, or even with the Giants...I can't say otherwise for certain.

But why would you target average to be your quarterback a couple years away from the end of his rookie contract? Why not draft someone or get someone cheaper who is just as average?

We shouldn't forget also that we spent a 6th overall pick on "average".
....  
BrettNYG10 : 1/28/2021 2:08 pm : link
Wanting to fire Gettleman has nothing to do with punishment (for me, at least). I don't think he's going to lead this franchise to a championship and think we need to try and find someone who can.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: anyway, to answer Brett's question...  
BubbaMojo : 1/28/2021 2:08 pm : link
In comment 15137161 BubbaMojo said:
Quote:
In comment 15137098 Producer said:


Quote:



but why must we wait for Jones to prove something when most elite QBs show it right away? Why can't we prepare for a back up plan now? That is what a smart organization does. they don't wait for years. Reid didn't wait for Alex Smith (a very good QB at the time). The Saints were ready to draft Mahomes even though they had Brees. We have Jones, who has been awful. Why do we have to "wait" for him?



I agree with you there. I guess I actually believe our organization is going through this evaluative process as we speak. They are evaluating the available QBs and determining if it is worth pursuing. Maybe I have too much faith in the organization that they are doing this. But maybe you don't have enough faith?

If they determine that it is better to stick with Jones (maybe because the compensation was too much in their eyes to pull the trigger on a trade?), I am hoping that Jones shows great strides this upcoming season and shows us he can be a franchise QB. Maybe it works out, maybe it doesn't. If not, I will have no problem cutting bait and moving on. But I'm hoping Jones succeeds; are you?

If the organization determines the value is right to make a trade and move on from Jones, I will be excited as well. I will root like hell for our new QB to succeed.

Just don't like the definitive statements that Jones is (or isn't) the answer. Nobody knows that yet.


Also, Producer, how many ELITE QBs are actually in the NFL? If that is the standard, then no, I don't think Jones is elite. I do believe if he can progress to "above average", we can compete for championships.
Let's review class  
BigBlueCane : 1/28/2021 2:26 pm : link
Eric posts the QB review article, during which he quotes Sy and says Jones maybe good, maybe bad but we don't know which and its silly to assume definitely based off of what we've seen.

IN the same article, he quotes Judge who all but shouted Jones name to the heavens and says he's his guy.



Yet here we have another Horse-beating the ground thread with the same 5-10 people arguing about over a trash, click-bait article.
RE: Why does it always turn ...  
AcidTest : 1/28/2021 2:31 pm : link
In comment 15137082 Jim from Katonah said:
Quote:
... to calling people clowns etc.? We’re just noodling around a bit with football, the insults really get in the way of a good fun debate. Sheesh.


+1.
RE: If you make that trade for Watson..  
dpinzow : 1/28/2021 2:34 pm : link
In comment 15136878 Sean said:
Quote:
You better be a Super Bowl contender this upcoming season. I’m talking 12+ wins, bye in the first round and consistent title contender.

I don’t see it.


You have to win the NFC East. You don't have to immediately be a Super Bowl contender because Watson is only 25 and has 10 years of franchise QB level play in front of him. Because of his age you have time to build a team around him, even with the high draft picks it would cost...
RE: RE: If you make that trade for Watson..  
Jim from Katonah : 1/28/2021 2:43 pm : link
In comment 15137209 dpinzow said:
Quote:
In comment 15136878 Sean said:


Quote:


You better be a Super Bowl contender this upcoming season. I’m talking 12+ wins, bye in the first round and consistent title contender.

I don’t see it.



You have to win the NFC East. You don't have to immediately be a Super Bowl contender because Watson is only 25 and has 10 years of franchise QB level play in front of him. Because of his age you have time to build a team around him, even with the high draft picks it would cost...


Let’s not forget the positive impact that winning NFC East next year, say going 9-7, would have on the credibility of Judge’s regime. If the Giants are back in the market for a QB in 2022, and scuffling along for a few more years, it’ll likely fall apart. Watson only has a $10 million cap hit next year and is only available because of the gross mismanagement of the Texans ... maybe our one opportunity to guarantee that we have a top 5 QB cornerstone.
RE: UConn  
UConn4523 : 1/28/2021 2:48 pm : link
In comment 15137178 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I'm not making anything up...you're guessing what Jones would be elsewhere. I'm going on what Jones has shown us in two years in the NFL.

Maybe Jones could be average elsewhere, or even with the Giants...I can't say otherwise for certain.

But why would you target average to be your quarterback a couple years away from the end of his rookie contract? Why not draft someone or get someone cheaper who is just as average?

We shouldn't forget also that we spent a 6th overall pick on "average".


What you made up was applying what I think Jones would do in SF or NO to what he would/will do in 2021 with the NYG.

I'm also not targeting average (which is what Jimmy G is despite his price tag). I'm simply saying average isn't all that bad and is treated as a Scarlet Letter for some reason.

SF, NO and Indy can draft someone but they likely will be giving up a fortune for anyone that isn't a total crapshoot.
Bubbamojo  
UConn4523 : 1/28/2021 2:51 pm : link
same thing on my end. I want elite but it simply isn't a realistic option. The next best option is maximizing your picks and cap and putting a system in place to get the most out of the players you do have or will be bringing in. If that includes competition for Jones, great, i'm all for it.
When somebody..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/28/2021 2:52 pm : link
says definitively "the book is out on Jones", you really have to question what kind of football acumen they have.

If teh book is out on somebody, that means there will be no improvement, there will be no upside. It is what it is.

And while these astute posters point to 11 TD's and 10 INT's and sprinkle it in as many posts as possible - why is there no acknowledgement about the better ball protection the back half of the year? The book is out, so why would Jones have better ball security.

It is just one of many logic fails because certain guys are tripping all over their dicks to show the board that Jones is one of the worst QB's ever. Wouldn't fetch a 3rd or 4th rounder? On what basis? We know what he is? On what basis?

They are just empty statements typed with a lot of emphasis.

The most ironic comment was made way up above:
"Any QB would struggle with Garrett as OC", and yet, in the one season Jones had Garrett as OC, he struggled and yet the reasoning is we know for certain what we have. 11TD's and 10INTS, as if 24TD's last season didn't happen and aren't possible.

When absolutes are posed it is almost always a sure sign that the point is being exaggerated. Whether it is due to aggressive cluelessness or just frustration is really the only thing to parse.
and I'll ask again  
UConn4523 : 1/28/2021 2:54 pm : link
what did you all honestly see in Ryan Tannehill after 2 years? I for one thought he was trash. I even thought the comparison of Jones to Tannehill coming out of Duke was crazy considering how little I thought of RT.

Well, turns out going to a different team and overcoming his own shortcomings turn things around drastically. Why people don't think that's possible for Jones is beyond me.

Good news is what I think is irrelevant, just like anyone who wants to trade for Watson.
RE: When somebody..  
Jim from Katonah : 1/28/2021 3:12 pm : link
In comment 15137227 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
says definitively "the book is out on Jones", you really have to question what kind of football acumen they have.

If teh book is out on somebody, that means there will be no improvement, there will be no upside. It is what it is.

And while these astute posters point to 11 TD's and 10 INT's and sprinkle it in as many posts as possible - why is there no acknowledgement about the better ball protection the back half of the year? The book is out, so why would Jones have better ball security.

It is just one of many logic fails because certain guys are tripping all over their dicks to show the board that Jones is one of the worst QB's ever. Wouldn't fetch a 3rd or 4th rounder? On what basis? We know what he is? On what basis?

They are just empty statements typed with a lot of emphasis.

The most ironic comment was made way up above:
"Any QB would struggle with Garrett as OC", and yet, in the one season Jones had Garrett as OC, he struggled and yet the reasoning is we know for certain what we have. 11TD's and 10INTS, as if 24TD's last season didn't happen and aren't possible.

When absolutes are posed it is almost always a sure sign that the point is being exaggerated. Whether it is due to aggressive cluelessness or just frustration is really the only thing to parse.


The book isn’t out, he may develop into a top 10 guy, we’ve seen flashes. But there’s also a pretty solid risk he doesn’t, right? Why take that risk, which would plunge them back into trying to nail down the position (which can take years, ask the Skins or Bears) when there’s a 25 year old top 5-6 guy out there? I understand that losing three first rounders creates its own risk, but the only surefire player in that 5 player equation is Watson and it’s at the position most likely to set us up for a multi-year run.
RE: and I'll ask again  
bw in dc : 1/28/2021 3:17 pm : link
In comment 15137229 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
what did you all honestly see in Ryan Tannehill after 2 years? I for one thought he was trash. I even thought the comparison of Jones to Tannehill coming out of Duke was crazy considering how little I thought of RT.

Well, turns out going to a different team and overcoming his own shortcomings turn things around drastically. Why people don't think that's possible for Jones is beyond me.

Good news is what I think is irrelevant, just like anyone who wants to trade for Watson.


I suggest you revisit Tannehill's production in Miami his first three years. They bailed on him too early.

He went from 12 TDs to 24 to 27 over his first three years. Had solid incremental improvement.

I did review it  
UConn4523 : 1/28/2021 3:22 pm : link
and I didn't include year 3 because Jones hasn't had one yet (which is the whole point to the RT comparison). Their first 2 years are very very similar, with very similar issues. I have no idea if he'd take the year 3 jump that RT did, but if it happened wouldn't that be extremely promising?
Being satisfied with Average at the quarterback position  
chick310 : 1/28/2021 3:25 pm : link
without having another positional unit or at least some positional players being elite, sounds like it is a waste of time. At least it does to this Giants fan. Let's not forget the goal isn't to have a winning record, it's to win the Super Bowl.

And currently, the Giants do not have other units and/or players that can consistently carry them to wins on the roster. Arguably, they have a few defensive players that had career years in 2020, and even they didn't even merit All-Pro status.

I agree, you do not need an elite QB build a Super Bowl winning team. But without a guy that isn't at least very good, the Giants are going to need to be excellent at something else if not several areas.

Where is that going to be?
I thought it was a crazy idea but maybe not  
HomerJones45 : 1/28/2021 3:42 pm : link
You've got a chance to pick up a 25 year old proven qb under contract for the next 5 years. Is there an opportunity here to lock down this position with a star for the next 5 years?

Even if you like Jones, why take a chance that what you have seen is what you will get when the real goods are in front of you?
you are confusing the point i'm making  
UConn4523 : 1/28/2021 3:46 pm : link
I'm not "satisfied" with average. I'm simply saying its far more normal and not as bad as people make it sound - average has us in the playoffs, for example. But I only brought it up because "average" would work for the teams that I think would trade something of value for him.

I don't think all these "win now" teams are itching to leverage the future to win it all today like some do and even if 1 does that still leaves several teams with nothing, or very little at the QB spot.
RE: RE: and I'll ask again  
HomerJones45 : 1/28/2021 3:47 pm : link
In comment 15137250 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15137229 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


what did you all honestly see in Ryan Tannehill after 2 years? I for one thought he was trash. I even thought the comparison of Jones to Tannehill coming out of Duke was crazy considering how little I thought of RT.

Well, turns out going to a different team and overcoming his own shortcomings turn things around drastically. Why people don't think that's possible for Jones is beyond me.

Good news is what I think is irrelevant, just like anyone who wants to trade for Watson.



I suggest you revisit Tannehill's production in Miami his first three years. They bailed on him too early.

He went from 12 TDs to 24 to 27 over his first three years. Had solid incremental improvement.
Meh, they concluded that Tannehill was a high floor, low ceiling guy who wasn't going to take them anywhere, and they were right. It wasn't until he got to Tenn where he had that monster in the backfield totally occupying the other team's attention that he went anywhere. You saw in this last playoff game: stop Henry and Tannehill isn't going to get it done.
LOL..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/28/2021 3:51 pm : link
"they were right"?? Tannehill has now gone to the playoffs two years in a row with a championship game appearance.

The Dolphins? They traded for Josh Rosen. They drafted Tua. And at the end of the day, their best QB is a 38 year old and they still don't know what they are going to do at the position.

That's getting it right??

Perhaps with Tannehill under center this season, they make a deep playoff run instead of not knowing what they have yet with Tua. Again - this is more hypocrisy. When the Giants don't know what they have with Jones, they are fucked. But the Dolphins? They got it RIGHT!
Eli was never elite  
adamg : 1/28/2021 3:55 pm : link
We invested in him and around him even when he started slow to start his career. It paid off with two championships.

Aaron Rodgers has been elite his whole career and has one.

Obviously, being an elite QB isn't everything.
ok, and?  
UConn4523 : 1/28/2021 3:55 pm : link
so a perpetually bad team shouldn't even want to go to the playoffs in win a game or two, its SB or bust?

I've never approached any team I root for like that. To me that seems like such nonsense outside of some stupid super team like the Heat or Lakers or the Yankees of old.

I'll sign up for 11-5 any year, and once you are in who knows what happens. Shouldn't we know that by now?
...  
christian : 1/28/2021 3:58 pm : link
Watson is going to get traded. With Culley and Caserio hired, and Watson publicly asking for the trade this morning, that ship has sailed.

The overlap between teams interested and teams Watson is willing to go to isn't going to be a long list, and I seriously doubt the price tag is 3 numbers, plus a former first rounder.

I predict the cost is two number ones and a player. If the Giants sent Jones, the no. 11, and next year's No. 1 -- I'd be happy as a fan.
RE: Eli was never elite  
Greg from LI : 1/28/2021 4:01 pm : link
In comment 15137287 adamg said:
Quote:
We invested in him and around him even when he started slow to start his career. It paid off with two championships.

Aaron Rodgers has been elite his whole career and has one.

Obviously, being an elite QB isn't everything.


I've said it a million times before, and so I'll keep saying it - Eli Manning is unique. He wasn't an elite QB over the course of his entire career, but he was able to elevate his play to an elite level over those two Super Bowl runs. I can't think of another QB you can say that about.

IOW, I think he's a really bad comp for these things. Expecting another QBs career to play out like Eli seems mighty unlikely.
RE: ...  
UConn4523 : 1/28/2021 4:03 pm : link
In comment 15137290 christian said:
Quote:
Watson is going to get traded. With Culley and Caserio hired, and Watson publicly asking for the trade this morning, that ship has sailed.

The overlap between teams interested and teams Watson is willing to go to isn't going to be a long list, and I seriously doubt the price tag is 3 numbers, plus a former first rounder.

I predict the cost is two number ones and a player. If the Giants sent Jones, the no. 11, and next year's No. 1 -- I'd be happy as a fan.


I'd do this.
RE: you are confusing the point i'm making  
chick310 : 1/28/2021 4:03 pm : link
In comment 15137278 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
I'm not "satisfied" with average. I'm simply saying its far more normal and not as bad as people make it sound - average has us in the playoffs, for example. But I only brought it up because "average" would work for the teams that I think would trade something of value for him.

I don't think all these "win now" teams are itching to leverage the future to win it all today like some do and even if 1 does that still leaves several teams with nothing, or very little at the QB spot.


All good, wasn't attempting to corner you in a bad position. Was only probing the thought process if it comes to be that Jones' ceiling is indeed average. The Giants simply don't have anywhere near the roster to suggest that they would seriously be competing anytime soon. You mention average would get us into the playoffs, but really that is only in a near historically low performing NFC East in 2020.

Not supporting a theme of trading three #1 picks plus Jones. But if somebody critically believes the Giants real timeline is still more than just several years out, then there is something to be said for putting together a valid proposal for Watson.
RE: RE: ...  
BubbaMojo : 1/28/2021 4:04 pm : link
In comment 15137297 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 15137290 christian said:


Quote:


Watson is going to get traded. With Culley and Caserio hired, and Watson publicly asking for the trade this morning, that ship has sailed.

The overlap between teams interested and teams Watson is willing to go to isn't going to be a long list, and I seriously doubt the price tag is 3 numbers, plus a former first rounder.

I predict the cost is two number ones and a player. If the Giants sent Jones, the no. 11, and next year's No. 1 -- I'd be happy as a fan.



I'd do this.


Sign me up.
RE: ...  
Go Terps : 1/28/2021 4:06 pm : link
In comment 15137290 christian said:
Quote:
Watson is going to get traded. With Culley and Caserio hired, and Watson publicly asking for the trade this morning, that ship has sailed.

The overlap between teams interested and teams Watson is willing to go to isn't going to be a long list, and I seriously doubt the price tag is 3 numbers, plus a former first rounder.

I predict the cost is two number ones and a player. If the Giants sent Jones, the no. 11, and next year's No. 1 -- I'd be happy as a fan.


Do it and don't think twice.

Do ya think Gettleman even calls Houston about it, though?
RE: RE: ...  
chick310 : 1/28/2021 4:06 pm : link
In comment 15137297 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 15137290 christian said:


Quote:


Watson is going to get traded. With Culley and Caserio hired, and Watson publicly asking for the trade this morning, that ship has sailed.

The overlap between teams interested and teams Watson is willing to go to isn't going to be a long list, and I seriously doubt the price tag is 3 numbers, plus a former first rounder.

I predict the cost is two number ones and a player. If the Giants sent Jones, the no. 11, and next year's No. 1 -- I'd be happy as a fan.



I'd do this.


I would as well.
RE: RE: Eli was never elite  
adamg : 1/28/2021 4:07 pm : link
In comment 15137294 Greg from LI said:
Quote:

I've said it a million times before, and so I'll keep saying it - Eli Manning is unique. He wasn't an elite QB over the course of his entire career, but he was able to elevate his play to an elite level over those two Super Bowl runs. I can't think of another QB you can say that about.

IOW, I think he's a really bad comp for these things. Expecting another QBs career to play out like Eli seems mighty unlikely.


That's a fair point. And as an Eli fan, I agree that he's exceptional as a big game QB. That is what makes him a HOFer. But, I still think it shows that we shouldn't write off Jones this second. It's too early. I give him one more year, ideally a full year of Barkley and a real set of receivers around him.

I would also add that the Eagles just won a championship with a middling QB. You don't need elite to win. And having an elite QB doesn't guarantee success, as HOU showed this year.
Obviously though  
adamg : 1/28/2021 4:08 pm : link
if you can trade Jones for Watson for two picks, that's an easy decision.
I should also say, Greg,  
adamg : 1/28/2021 4:10 pm : link
I don't see the big game clutch trait in Jones, which is another thing that is concerning about him. Although, in fairness to him, there haven't been a lot of big time opportunities.
RE: RE: ...  
Greg from LI : 1/28/2021 4:10 pm : link
In comment 15137297 UConn4523 said:
Quote:

I'd do this.


Yep, so would I.
RE: I did review it  
bw in dc : 1/28/2021 4:13 pm : link
In comment 15137254 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
and I didn't include year 3 because Jones hasn't had one yet (which is the whole point to the RT comparison). Their first 2 years are very very similar, with very similar issues. I have no idea if he'd take the year 3 jump that RT did, but if it happened wouldn't that be extremely promising?


Tannehill went up in almost all key categories all while "leading" the league in getting sacked. He engineered 4 4th quarter comebacks and had 3 game winning drives. So there was clear YoY improvement. And I wouldn't call it a stellar group of receivers with Brian Hartline, Mike Wallace and Charles Clay. ;)

Yet, you see similar YoY improvement from Jones??
RE: RE: ...  
BubbaMojo : 1/28/2021 4:15 pm : link
In comment 15137301 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15137290 christian said:


Quote:


Watson is going to get traded. With Culley and Caserio hired, and Watson publicly asking for the trade this morning, that ship has sailed.

The overlap between teams interested and teams Watson is willing to go to isn't going to be a long list, and I seriously doubt the price tag is 3 numbers, plus a former first rounder.

I predict the cost is two number ones and a player. If the Giants sent Jones, the no. 11, and next year's No. 1 -- I'd be happy as a fan.



Do it and don't think twice.

Do ya think Gettleman even calls Houston about it, though?


Maybe I'm naive, but I believe the Giants organization will either call the Texans directly and ask what they are looking for, or will use other channels of communication to determine what ballpark the Texans are in with regards to compensation.

I would argue the "back channel" method would be preferable. They can get information on where the Texans are at, and determine if they want to enter the fray. If it's too steep, the hope is they could quietly remove themselves and the stupid media doesn't find out we were inquiring and start writing articles to fracture the culture Judge is trying to build ("Hey Daniel, how do you feel knowing the Giants were looking to move on from you?", etc.)

Just my opinion.
RE: ...  
bw in dc : 1/28/2021 4:17 pm : link
In comment 15137290 christian said:
Quote:
Watson is going to get traded. With Culley and Caserio hired, and Watson publicly asking for the trade this morning, that ship has sailed.

The overlap between teams interested and teams Watson is willing to go to isn't going to be a long list, and I seriously doubt the price tag is 3 numbers, plus a former first rounder.

I predict the cost is two number ones and a player. If the Giants sent Jones, the no. 11, and next year's No. 1 -- I'd be happy as a fan.


I agree that it's not going to cost a king's ransom. Watson has so much leverage it's going to come down to getting the best first round pick this year to replenish the first rounder they lost for Tunsil.
RE: RE: ...  
bw in dc : 1/28/2021 4:19 pm : link
In comment 15137301 Go Terps said:
Quote:



Do it and don't think twice.

Do ya think Gettleman even calls Houston about it, though?


I say NFW.

It's going to be a pride thing...you just know it. Gettleman drafted his first QB ever in the first round and he's willing to sink or swim.
And there is why these discussions go south.  
Britt in VA : 1/28/2021 4:20 pm : link
You have people of two different minds on Jones agreeing on the parameter of what would be an acceptable trade to acquire Watson...

And then you just HAVE to inject that our buffoon GM won't pick up the phone into the discussion, which will easily take it right back off the rails.
RE: RE: I did review it  
UConn4523 : 1/28/2021 4:21 pm : link
In comment 15137310 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15137254 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


and I didn't include year 3 because Jones hasn't had one yet (which is the whole point to the RT comparison). Their first 2 years are very very similar, with very similar issues. I have no idea if he'd take the year 3 jump that RT did, but if it happened wouldn't that be extremely promising?



Tannehill went up in almost all key categories all while "leading" the league in getting sacked. He engineered 4 4th quarter comebacks and had 3 game winning drives. So there was clear YoY improvement. And I wouldn't call it a stellar group of receivers with Brian Hartline, Mike Wallace and Charles Clay. ;)

Yet, you see similar YoY improvement from Jones??


Nope not year over year, just cumulatively over the first 2 seasons. I also don’t exactly know how to grade year 2 for Jones. What you think is an excuse I classify as a reason so I won’t go down that path.

Point being though his big jump in production was year 3.
That is why it's bullshit when you just point to "facts".  
Britt in VA : 1/28/2021 4:21 pm : link
Because there is ZERO way you know whether he'd make the call or not.
You are as incapable of having a rational discussion as you accuse....  
Britt in VA : 1/28/2021 4:22 pm : link
others of being when you do that.
RE: And there is why these discussions go south.  
bw in dc : 1/28/2021 4:23 pm : link
In comment 15137320 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
You have people of two different minds on Jones agreeing on the parameter of what would be an acceptable trade to acquire Watson...

And then you just HAVE to inject that our buffoon GM won't pick up the phone into the discussion, which will easily take it right back off the rails.


You can't see Gettleman tacking that direction? Is that so crazy where he feels so hitched to Jones?

Now, if Judge has serious equity in the process, he would be the swing vote. But it sounds like he's hitched his wagon to Jones, too...
RE: RE: And there is why these discussions go south.  
Britt in VA : 1/28/2021 4:24 pm : link
In comment 15137325 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15137320 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


You have people of two different minds on Jones agreeing on the parameter of what would be an acceptable trade to acquire Watson...

And then you just HAVE to inject that our buffoon GM won't pick up the phone into the discussion, which will easily take it right back off the rails.



You can't see Gettleman tacking that direction? Is that so crazy where he feels so hitched to Jones?

Now, if Judge has serious equity in the process, he would be the swing vote. But it sounds like he's hitched his wagon to Jones, too...


I think every GM in the league is inquiring for this information for one reason or another. Whether it's actually acquiring Watson, whether it's trying to get a leg up on draft movement due to the trade, or whether it's getting an idea of what the market value is for a trade like that.

They're all interested.
RE: You are as incapable of having a rational discussion as you accuse....  
bw in dc : 1/28/2021 4:25 pm : link
In comment 15137324 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
others of being when you do that.


You are a real pisser.

I'm guessing - of course. And trying to apply some form of reasoning why Gettleman wouldn't call.

I don’t get that rationale  
UConn4523 : 1/28/2021 4:26 pm : link
if he deals Jones+ picks for Watson can’t I make the argument that he’s upgrading the position and further extending his rope as a GM? Wouldn’t this be considered savvy and forward thinking and something he’d get to puff his chest out on?

You can pretty much rationalize it any way you want which is why it’s pretty lame.
RE: And there is why these discussions go south.  
Thegratefulhead : 1/28/2021 4:26 pm : link
In comment 15137320 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
You have people of two different minds on Jones agreeing on the parameter of what would be an acceptable trade to acquire Watson...

And then you just HAVE to inject that our buffoon GM won't pick up the phone into the discussion, which will easily take it right back off the rails.
It doesn't have to go south. It's clearly speculation on BW's part. You could ignore it, say you disagree or agree. It doesn't have to be piss in your soup.
RE: RE: You are as incapable of having a rational discussion as you accuse....  
Britt in VA : 1/28/2021 4:26 pm : link
In comment 15137327 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15137324 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


others of being when you do that.



You are a real pisser.

I'm guessing - of course. And trying to apply some form of reasoning why Gettleman wouldn't call.


You're making shit up.
And we all know that this all sets up....  
Britt in VA : 1/28/2021 4:29 pm : link
the Giants way narrative when Watson gets traded for something that people consider fairly reasonable and will make up that our buffoon GM never picked up the phone because he was all in on Daniel Jones just like he was all in on Eli.

It's predictable.
RE: RE: RE: I did review it  
bw in dc : 1/28/2021 4:29 pm : link
In comment 15137321 UConn4523 said:
Quote:

Nope not year over year, just cumulatively over the first 2 seasons. I also don’t exactly know how to grade year 2 for Jones. What you think is an excuse I classify as a reason so I won’t go down that path.

Point being though his big jump in production was year 3.


Cumulative is an odd way to look at it, but okay.

I would be much more inclined to buy the "keep Jones" position if he had improved '19 to '20. But I think he regressed. It certainly wasn't as prolific as the moments he had in '19 - true?
RE: RE: RE: You are as incapable of having a rational discussion as you accuse....  
bw in dc : 1/28/2021 4:32 pm : link
In comment 15137330 Britt in VA said:
Quote:


You're making shit up.


You do realize this is a message board where everyone does a lot of guessing, right? So I'm guessing why Gettleman wouldn't call.

Some are more masterful at the long troll than others.  
Britt in VA : 1/28/2021 4:34 pm : link
Whatever.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I did review it  
UConn4523 : 1/28/2021 4:35 pm : link
In comment 15137332 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15137321 UConn4523 said:


Quote:



Nope not year over year, just cumulatively over the first 2 seasons. I also don’t exactly know how to grade year 2 for Jones. What you think is an excuse I classify as a reason so I won’t go down that path.

Point being though his big jump in production was year 3.



Cumulative is an odd way to look at it, but okay.

I would be much more inclined to buy the "keep Jones" position if he had improved '19 to '20. But I think he regressed. It certainly wasn't as prolific as the moments he had in '19 - true?


Again I’m not arguing to keep/deal Jones. I jumped in on the value convo in a trade and why I think he’d get more than some people think.

And I said cumulative because 2020 was such a clusterfuck between COVID, the OL taking forever to gel, Barkley going down, Jones’ injury and Engram dropping everything that I really don’t know how to grade Jones. But again, don’t want to get in the excuses debate, I know that gets people fired up around here.
RE: And we all know that this all sets up....  
BubbaMojo : 1/28/2021 4:39 pm : link
In comment 15137331 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
the Giants way narrative when Watson gets traded for something that people consider fairly reasonable and will make up that our buffoon GM never picked up the phone because he was all in on Daniel Jones just like he was all in on Eli.

It's predictable.


This is unfortunately 100% accurate. Sad.
I'll say it again.  
Thegratefulhead : 1/28/2021 4:42 pm : link
I would trade 2 number 1's and Jones for Watson. Maybe add a third in 2022 and not require a 4 in return? Speculating whether DG would make the trade is useless to me. No one can know but DG.

I would not do three #1s, I don't have anything to go on other than where we have drafted the last 5 years but those could very well be high picks. That would be a long time not to have a shot to draft an impact player. That said, Watson is probably worth more so...It's moot.

Jones is fast but not elusive, he doesn't seem to create. Watson makes off schedule plays, he breaks your back. Leave the DG part out of this discussion, Stick to the trade itself, BBI was doing pretty good for a bit here.
RE: And we all know that this all sets up....  
christian : 1/28/2021 4:48 pm : link
In comment 15137331 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
the Giants way narrative when Watson gets traded for something that people consider fairly reasonable and will make up that our buffoon GM never picked up the phone because he was all in on Daniel Jones just like he was all in on Eli.

It's predictable.


If the Giants GM doesn't pick up the phone, and Watson is dealt for something reasonable, is it illogical to conclude:

A) Maybe his a buffoon and/or
B) Maybe he is all-in on Jones
RE: RE: RE: RE: You are as incapable of having a rational discussion as you accuse....  
BigBlueShock : 1/28/2021 4:51 pm : link
In comment 15137336 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15137330 Britt in VA said:


Quote:




You're making shit up.



You do realize this is a message board where everyone does a lot of guessing, right? So I'm guessing why Gettleman wouldn't call.

Just so I have this right, Gettleman is so concerned about his legacy based on the QB he is responsible for leaving the team with that he wouldn’t even bother calling on....wait for it.....Deshaun Watson? Wouldn’t that be an enormous feather in his cap? If he turns the Daniel Jones pick into Watson I’d say that’s a franchise altering move. Yet, you think he’s more interested in proving he was right on Jones?

You know damn well that we will never know if the Giants contacted Houston or not. But this kind of thing is right up your alley. You get to speculate and ridicule the team after the fact for no reason whatsoever other than it’s your “opinion”.
RE: RE: And we all know that this all sets up....  
BubbaMojo : 1/28/2021 4:51 pm : link
In comment 15137361 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 15137331 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


the Giants way narrative when Watson gets traded for something that people consider fairly reasonable and will make up that our buffoon GM never picked up the phone because he was all in on Daniel Jones just like he was all in on Eli.

It's predictable.



If the Giants GM doesn't pick up the phone, and Watson is dealt for something reasonable, is it illogical to conclude:

A) Maybe his a buffoon and/or
B) Maybe he is all-in on Jones


You mean, Gettleman AND Judge would be all in on Jones. Do you trust Judge's evaluation and opinion on the matter?
RE: RE: And we all know that this all sets up....  
BigBlueShock : 1/28/2021 4:53 pm : link
In comment 15137361 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 15137331 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


the Giants way narrative when Watson gets traded for something that people consider fairly reasonable and will make up that our buffoon GM never picked up the phone because he was all in on Daniel Jones just like he was all in on Eli.

It's predictable.



If the Giants GM doesn't pick up the phone, and Watson is dealt for something reasonable, is it illogical to conclude:

A) Maybe his a buffoon and/or
B) Maybe he is all-in on Jones

Unless they pull off a trade we will never know whether he picked up the phone or not. There will be conflicting reports and fans will take who her side they want. Gettleman could come out and say that he called and certain posters on this board will say he’s lying. We’ve been down that road before.
BBS  
UConn4523 : 1/28/2021 4:53 pm : link
I said the same above, doesn’t make any sense to me.
RE: And there is why these discussions go south.  
Go Terps : 1/28/2021 5:01 pm : link
In comment 15137320 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
You have people of two different minds on Jones agreeing on the parameter of what would be an acceptable trade to acquire Watson...

And then you just HAVE to inject that our buffoon GM won't pick up the phone into the discussion, which will easily take it right back off the rails.


The discussions go south when QBs not named Jones or Watson (for the purposes of this thread) get pulled in. Posters are grasping at straws to make whatever argument they can that Jones will be better than what he's shown. But here are the simple facts:

Jones: 26 starts, 8-18 record, 35 TD/22 INT, 6.6 Y/A, 3 rushing TDs, 29 fumbles
Watson: 53 starts, 28-25 record, 104/36, 8.3 Y/A, 17 rushing TDs, 30 fumbles

Done. That's it. One guy has been very good, one guy has been bad. Josh Rosen, Ryan Tannehill, Sam Darnold, and ESPECIALLY Eli Manning have nothing to do with any of it.

As for Gettleman - he talks like a buffoon and he's done his job like a buffoon. He IS a buffoon. Don't blame us for that...we didn't hire him.

And UConn is correct - trading for Watson would be shrewd and savvy. That is exactly why many of us wouldn't expect Gettleman to do it. As Giants GM he has shown himself to be neither shrewd nor savvy.

It sucks for us, but pretending isn't going to make it go away.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: You are as incapable of having a rational discussion as you accuse....  
bw in dc : 1/28/2021 5:02 pm : link
In comment 15137365 BigBlueShock said:
Quote:

You do realize this is a message board where everyone does a lot of guessing, right? So I'm guessing why Gettleman wouldn't call.



Just so I have this right, Gettleman is so concerned about his legacy based on the QB he is responsible for leaving the team with that he wouldn’t even bother calling on....wait for it.....Deshaun Watson? Wouldn’t that be an enormous feather in his cap? If he turns the Daniel Jones pick into Watson I’d say that’s a franchise altering move. Yet, you think he’s more interested in proving he was right on Jones?

You know damn well that we will never know if the Giants contacted Houston or not. But this kind of thing is right up your alley. You get to speculate and ridicule the team after the fact for no reason whatsoever other than it’s your “opinion”.


Let me put it differently. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Gettleman never inquires because he believe in Jones - for whatever reason you want to apply - and doesn't want to incur the opportunity cost.

Look, I would be love to be stunned if Gettleman could pull it off. It just doesn't feel like his game...

And I don't know if we will never now if Gettleman got involved or not. The beat reporters, and Asshats, should be all over this as a story because it's so big on a national scale.
Pre-Judge I’m with you  
UConn4523 : 1/28/2021 5:07 pm : link
but I have to think if Judge wanted Watson or to see what the price would be he’d get DG or the Maras to make the call if they didn’t already. He’d have to share the blame in it, IMO, if it didn’t happen (the call not the trade itself).
UConn...  
bw in dc : 1/28/2021 5:14 pm : link
If that dynamic does indeed exist where Judge truly has that weight to push for the move than that would increase the odds.

But if you read Judge's comments about Jones since the season ended, he seems very content with Jones as well.

Hey, I'm dying to be bowled over on this and have to eat a big sh-t sandwich if Gettleman gets involved and pulls it off. It would be an organizational game changer.
RE: Pre-Judge I’m with you  
Go Terps : 1/28/2021 5:17 pm : link
In comment 15137382 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
but I have to think if Judge wanted Watson or to see what the price would be he’d get DG or the Maras to make the call if they didn’t already. He’d have to share the blame in it, IMO, if it didn’t happen (the call not the trade itself).


I very much want to believe that Judge has eaten into some of Mara/Gettleman's decision-making power, but I'm not sure we've seen any evidence. There were rumors about Garrett and Judge not being on the same page all season, but during the annual pathetic "arrow pointing up" fireside chat Gettleman said they were antsy about losing Garrett.

So as not to anger anyone further I'll emphasize that I THINK if you got Judge in an honest moment he'd want to be rid of both Garrett and Jones.
Terps..  
Sean : 1/28/2021 5:20 pm : link
Does Judge strike you as a guy who would be okay with such an arrangement? I don’t see it.
I'm sure its a give and take  
UConn4523 : 1/28/2021 5:22 pm : link
I don't think Judge came in with the ability to make demands, probably had to make many concessions. But I think his fingers were on the draft a good amount and I can see his pull increasing due to the team playing above its talent level, especially dealing with the COVID restrictions.

Speculation for sure, but I think there's some merit in there. I don't take the Jones comments to mean much one way or the other, Judge knows exactly what to say at all times (it seems), and since they didn't have a top pick to land a Lawrence there's no point in not propping up Jones. Plus if memory serves he talked a lot about Jones' work ethic, character, and the improvements he's seen in practice (which started to come to fruition pre-injury). Nothing he said was wildly offbase unless i'm missing something.
RE: Terps..  
BubbaMojo : 1/28/2021 5:25 pm : link
In comment 15137392 Sean said:
Quote:
Does Judge strike you as a guy who would be okay with such an arrangement? I don’t see it.


I would agree with Terps on this one. It's entirely possible that Judge had to concede on some things he may have not wanted to, in order to secure a coveted NFL head coaching job.

Now that he seems to be a good coach, I can see him slowly start forcing the power of the organization over to his side. It's not crazy to think a young coach wanted to get his foot in the door; and if that meant a few (short term) concessions, so be it.
RE: Terps..  
Go Terps : 1/28/2021 5:27 pm : link
In comment 15137392 Sean said:
Quote:
Does Judge strike you as a guy who would be okay with such an arrangement? I don’t see it.


I think we've got to remember who Judge was when he got this job. I didn't even know what he looked like the day they hired him. He came into his interview a 38 year old guy with no head coaching experience and probably on his way out of the NFL down to Mississippi State. He wasn't going to be able to come into his interview and say "no" if he was told Jones was going to be the quarterback, and Garrett the OC.

He's gained some cache through his job performance in year 1, so hopefully his influence has grown. But doubt it's yet grown enough to override the stupid coming from Mara/Gettleman.

I've been saying it since they hired him: the best thing that could happen is Mara/Gettleman forget where the fucking building is, and Judge takes over everything.
There has been plenty of publicly made comments about  
chick310 : 1/28/2021 5:54 pm : link
good collaborative relationship between Judge and the rest of the front office.

With that said, I don't think it's difficult to conceive that Dave Gettleman might not have an interest in inquiring about Watson because how intrinsically linked he is with Daniel Jones. It very well might have to take Judge driving the agenda a bit on pushing the Giants to make an inquiry if he thought it was a good opportunity.

let's get real  
Producer : 1/28/2021 6:13 pm : link
The Texans aren't dealing with the Giants. They aren't going to want Jones plus whatever. Jones is not on anybody's radar as a QB to go get. They aren't going to trade a superstar for a gigantic question mark in year three.

Their best partner is the Jets. They can get the #2 pick and turn that into Fields or Wilson (or maybe even Lance) and that is more enticing than Jones. Their second best partner is probably Miami.
Worthless post  
UConn4523 : 1/28/2021 6:23 pm : link
we have no idea what they want and what other teams are willing to give up. And who said we’d include Jones? Maybe we work 2 deals and send Jones elsewhere? What if the Jets balk?

So many unknowns it’s impossible to point to anything, let alone be definitive about it.
RE: Worthless post  
Producer : 1/28/2021 6:28 pm : link
In comment 15137431 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
we have no idea what they want and what other teams are willing to give up. And who said we’d include Jones? Maybe we work 2 deals and send Jones elsewhere? What if the Jets balk?

So many unknowns it’s impossible to point to anything, let alone be definitive about it.


ok when it comes out that the Texans want to pick a top-3 QB to rebuild with please make sure to give me some props. It's obvious isn't it? It should be just as obvious they aren't going to take our trash for their stud.
Why wouldn’t they want that  
UConn4523 : 1/28/2021 6:30 pm : link
who starts negotiations for less?

But if they can’t get that then what?
RE: Why wouldn’t they want that  
Producer : 1/28/2021 6:32 pm : link
In comment 15137434 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
who starts negotiations for less?

But if they can’t get that then what?


my guess, then they don't deal him. Or they get enough material to ensure they get at least Trey Lance.
I suspect the same (not dealing)  
UConn4523 : 1/28/2021 6:34 pm : link
I’ve yet to hear he’s refused to play.
RE: let's get real  
Jimmy Googs : 1/28/2021 6:36 pm : link
In comment 15137426 Producer said:
Quote:
The Texans aren't dealing with the Giants. They aren't going to want Jones plus whatever. Jones is not on anybody's radar as a QB to go get. They aren't going to trade a superstar for a gigantic question mark in year three.

Their best partner is the Jets. They can get the #2 pick and turn that into Fields or Wilson (or maybe even Lance) and that is more enticing than Jones. Their second best partner is probably Miami.


While I would agree its improbable Watson lands with the Giants for a whole host of reasons, Watson is indeed getting traded. And they are going to need a starting QB.

Jones may have plenty of questions but he is also young, a hard worker, well liked and there is tape on him playing in the NFL. Some of good and some of it not, but at least dealing with live bullets. Maybe he catches their eye in Houston over the college prospects.
Producer...  
bw in dc : 1/28/2021 7:09 pm : link
is likely right. Jones's value is hard to gauge in this process. If Houston takes the view of UConn, and believes 2020 was more of a throwaway for Jones due to Covid/Judge/Garett/etc and 2019 is a better year to judge, then maybe this could have some legs.

What was the consensus on Stafford? His contract isn't that burdensome, either. I could live with him more as a short term upgrade.

Could he be had with a 2nd or 3rd and Jones? Or does Detroit sit at #7 and wait on who is left from Fields/Wilson/Lance?
RE: RE: Worthless post  
BigBlueShock : 1/28/2021 7:16 pm : link
In comment 15137432 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15137431 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


we have no idea what they want and what other teams are willing to give up. And who said we’d include Jones? Maybe we work 2 deals and send Jones elsewhere? What if the Jets balk?

So many unknowns it’s impossible to point to anything, let alone be definitive about it.



ok when it comes out that the Texans want to pick a top-3 QB to rebuild with please make sure to give me some props. It's obvious isn't it? It should be just as obvious they aren't going to take our trash for their stud.

You sure do run your mouth a lot for a guy that registered this month. In fact, you sound an awful Loy another troll we had hear that was absolutely OBSESSED with franchise quarterbacks. IHis handle was FranchiseQB. Or should I say YOUR handle was FranchiseQB it is absolutely you. Fucking troll.

By the way, you can holler at the moon all you want and tell us all who you think is the best trade partner. It doesn’t mean shit if those teams have no interest in making a deal or meeting Houston’s demands.
Look at the QB comps over the years (I posted them earlier)  
UConn4523 : 1/28/2021 7:17 pm : link
Stafford will get a good return
RE: RE: RE: Worthless post  
BigBlueShock : 1/28/2021 7:18 pm : link
In comment 15137467 BigBlueShock said:
Quote:
In comment 15137432 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15137431 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


we have no idea what they want and what other teams are willing to give up. And who said we’d include Jones? Maybe we work 2 deals and send Jones elsewhere? What if the Jets balk?

So many unknowns it’s impossible to point to anything, let alone be definitive about it.



ok when it comes out that the Texans want to pick a top-3 QB to rebuild with please make sure to give me some props. It's obvious isn't it? It should be just as obvious they aren't going to take our trash for their stud.


You sure do run your mouth a lot for a guy that registered this month. In fact, you sound an awful Loy another troll we had hear that was absolutely OBSESSED with franchise quarterbacks. IHis handle was FranchiseQB. Or should I say YOUR handle was FranchiseQB it is absolutely you. Fucking troll.

By the way, you can holler at the moon all you want and tell us all who you think is the best trade partner. It doesn’t mean shit if those teams have no interest in making a deal or meeting Houston’s demands.

So I see you registered last year., not this year. Got that one wrong. The rest of my post still stands. FranchiseQB troll
Aside from the Giants.  
Sean : 1/28/2021 8:20 pm : link
Shouldn’t the Ravens be in on Watson, he’s better than Lamar.

How about the Browns? He’s better than Mayfield.

Cardinals? He’s better than Murray.

Chargers? Probably better than Herbert.

Just about every team that isn’t KC, Buffalo or GB should be in.
RE: Aside from the Giants.  
bw in dc : 1/28/2021 8:45 pm : link
In comment 15137496 Sean said:
Quote:
Shouldn’t the Ravens be in on Watson, he’s better than Lamar.

How about the Browns? He’s better than Mayfield.

Cardinals? He’s better than Murray.

Chargers? Probably better than Herbert.

Just about every team that isn’t KC, Buffalo or GB should be in.


Ravens - No. LJax is in their long-term plans.
Browns - Maybe. Mayfield played great down the stretch.
Cardinals - Probably no, because I think Murray is very likely going to be a star.
Chargers - No. Herbert showed he has the goods after his rookie campaign. He could be better than Watson.

RE: RE: RE: Worthless post  
Producer : 1/28/2021 8:51 pm : link
In comment 15137467 BigBlueShock said:
Quote:
In comment 15137432 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15137431 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


we have no idea what they want and what other teams are willing to give up. And who said we’d include Jones? Maybe we work 2 deals and send Jones elsewhere? What if the Jets balk?

So many unknowns it’s impossible to point to anything, let alone be definitive about it.



ok when it comes out that the Texans want to pick a top-3 QB to rebuild with please make sure to give me some props. It's obvious isn't it? It should be just as obvious they aren't going to take our trash for their stud.


You sure do run your mouth a lot for a guy that registered this month. In fact, you sound an awful Loy another troll we had hear that was absolutely OBSESSED with franchise quarterbacks. IHis handle was FranchiseQB. Or should I say YOUR handle was FranchiseQB it is absolutely you. Fucking troll.

By the way, you can holler at the moon all you want and tell us all who you think is the best trade partner. It doesn’t mean shit if those teams have no interest in making a deal or meeting Houston’s demands.


I agree the team's have to meet the demands, or even be interested. You're wrong about one thing though. it's 2021 not 2020.
I’m feeling resigned to the fact ..,  
Jim from Katonah : 1/28/2021 8:53 pm : link
... that Giants don’t have the assets to tempt the Texans to part w/ their young star. It’s a completely unique event — a 25 year old who just led the NFL in passing yards AND yards per attempt with a big game winning pedigree suddenly available. I can’t remember a QB of this value/age ever switching teams. Will be interesting to see how it plays out ... and I hope he stays in the AFC.
RE: I’m feeling resigned to the fact ..,  
bw in dc : 1/28/2021 8:56 pm : link
In comment 15137519 Jim from Katonah said:
Quote:
... that Giants don’t have the assets to tempt the Texans to part w/ their young star. It’s a completely unique event — a 25 year old who just led the NFL in passing yards AND yards per attempt with a big game winning pedigree suddenly available. I can’t remember a QB of this value/age ever switching teams. Will be interesting to see how it plays out ... and I hope he stays in the AFC.


I think Watson could be drawn to the WFT. He's very serious about the roles of minorities in management. With Rivera as the HC, and now the hiring of Mayhew, that could appeal to DW...
RE: Aside from the Giants.  
Producer : 1/28/2021 8:56 pm : link
In comment 15137496 Sean said:
Quote:
Shouldn’t the Ravens be in on Watson, he’s better than Lamar.

How about the Browns? He’s better than Mayfield.

Cardinals? He’s better than Murray.

Chargers? Probably better than Herbert.

Just about every team that isn’t KC, Buffalo or GB should be in.


Maybe they will be but I think the teams you mention will stay with what they have. Watson may be better than them but perhaps the difference may seem marginal for now and they are building something substantial with those guys. But you never know.
RE: RE: I’m feeling resigned to the fact ..,  
Jim from Katonah : 1/28/2021 9:01 pm : link
In comment 15137521 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15137519 Jim from Katonah said:


Quote:


... that Giants don’t have the assets to tempt the Texans to part w/ their young star. It’s a completely unique event — a 25 year old who just led the NFL in passing yards AND yards per attempt with a big game winning pedigree suddenly available. I can’t remember a QB of this value/age ever switching teams. Will be interesting to see how it plays out ... and I hope he stays in the AFC.



I think Watson could be drawn to the WFT. He's very serious about the roles of minorities in management. With Rivera as the HC, and now the hiring of Mayhew, that could appeal to DW...


Agree. And with McLaurin, Young and Sweat, that’d suddenly be a solid team. No more WFAN 980 for me, it’d be intolerable.
Dan Orlovsky just said  
UConn4523 : 1/29/2021 8:04 am : link
if he was Dave Gettelman he’d offer Jones, Barkley and 3 Firsts for Watson...
RE: Dan Orlovsky just said  
Jimmy Googs : 1/29/2021 8:08 am : link
In comment 15137675 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
if he was Dave Gettelman he’d offer Jones, Barkley and 3 Firsts for Watson...


That would be the finishing touches on his storied career as the NYG General Manager.
RE: Dan Orlovsky just said  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 1/29/2021 8:14 am : link
In comment 15137675 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
if he was Dave Gettelman he’d offer Jones, Barkley and 3 Firsts for Watson...


Barkley might be one of the only reasons Watson would agree to come to the Giants. Doesn’t Watson have a NTC?
Yeah, I wouldn’t come here  
UConn4523 : 1/29/2021 8:17 am : link
under those circumstances. Just an empty roster at that point not to mention little hope for improvements for at least a couple seasons.
RE: Yeah, I wouldn’t come here  
Bill L : 1/29/2021 8:21 am : link
In comment 15137693 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
under those circumstances. Just an empty roster at that point not to mention little hope for improvements for at least a couple seasons.

I read that you don't need a roster. Just Watson and a (non-Garrett) OC is sufficient to win the SB. Plus you save on laundry costs with only one uniform to wash. Very cost-effective.
The same people who would trade 3 firsts for Watson..  
Sean : 1/29/2021 8:26 am : link
Would probably also gladly take a 3rd for Barkley.

Posters are going too far the other way because they are so down on Gettleman.
RE: The same people who would trade 3 firsts for Watson..  
UConn4523 : 1/29/2021 8:44 am : link
In comment 15137707 Sean said:
Quote:
Would probably also gladly take a 3rd for Barkley.

Posters are going too far the other way because they are so down on Gettleman.


Yup. I’d trade for Watson but not at all costs. I mentioned it too many times but going full tilt the other way isn’t productive neither in the real world or in making conversation.
RE: The same people who would trade 3 firsts for Watson..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/29/2021 8:49 am : link
In comment 15137707 Sean said:
Quote:
Would probably also gladly take a 3rd for Barkley.

Posters are going too far the other way because they are so down on Gettleman.


That's really what many of these discussions boil down to. And if you don't fall in line - you become an apologist.

It also sets up the dialog going forward that if we don't ultimately trade for Watson it will be because the GM never picked up the phone and wasn't willing to pay what it would take to get Watson
Except basically everybody on this very long thread posted  
Jimmy Googs : 1/29/2021 8:59 am : link
they wouldn't give up the 3 first round picks for Watson in the hypothetical.

Not sure where the 3rd rounder for Barkley came into discussion but that seems like just exaggerating as well.
RE: Dan Orlovsky just said  
bw in dc : 1/29/2021 9:00 am : link
In comment 15137675 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
if he was Dave Gettelman he’d offer Jones, Barkley and 3 Firsts for Watson...


If the Texans really like Jones as a franchise QB, and Barkley is deemed healthy, then I’d only toss in this year’s #11. And maybe - maybe - a future third rounder.

But being willing to roll with Jones as their franchise QB is a big tell and changes the dynamics of the picks.
I thought the Giants might  
Dnew15 : 1/29/2021 10:34 am : link
actually have shot a making a deal for Watson...but after looking at what other teams (ie the Dolphins and Jets) have to offer - the Giants have no shot.

I starting looking at other players that the Giants might be able to scoop up from a seemingly re-tooling Texans team...and pickin's are slim.

Would you make a deal to get JJ Watt on a one year 17.5 mil deal? If so - what do you think it would cost? IF you could make it fit cap-wise.

Another option is Zach CUnningham to put next to Blake M. - he's not very affordable - but that would make for one hell of a ILB tandem. If you could make him fit under the cap, what kind of draft picks would it take to land him?

The rest of that roster is a graveyard. THe Texans are looking at a REALLY long rebuild in front of them.
RE: RE: Dan Orlovsky just said  
UConn4523 : 1/29/2021 10:44 am : link
In comment 15137745 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15137675 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


if he was Dave Gettelman he’d offer Jones, Barkley and 3 Firsts for Watson...



If the Texans really like Jones as a franchise QB, and Barkley is deemed healthy, then I’d only toss in this year’s #11. And maybe - maybe - a future third rounder.

But being willing to roll with Jones as their franchise QB is a big tell and changes the dynamics of the picks.


For sure. I know why people want to discount Jones, I completely understand. But I don’t subscribe to everyone outside of the organization thinking he sucks, I just don’t. Too many questionable QBs have gone on to success elsewhere or netted a decent or even very good haul in trades. Maybe just maybe the situation here isn’t conducive to nurturing a QB with holes in his game. Maybe just maybe there’s better fits for him.
RE: RE: RE: Dan Orlovsky just said  
bw in dc : 1/29/2021 11:04 am : link
In comment 15137901 UConn4523 said:
Quote:

If the Texans really like Jones as a franchise QB, and Barkley is deemed healthy, then I’d only toss in this year’s #11. And maybe - maybe - a future third rounder.

But being willing to roll with Jones as their franchise QB is a big tell and changes the dynamics of the picks.



For sure. I know why people want to discount Jones, I completely understand. But I don’t subscribe to everyone outside of the organization thinking he sucks, I just don’t. Too many questionable QBs have gone on to success elsewhere or netted a decent or even very good haul in trades. Maybe just maybe the situation here isn’t conducive to nurturing a QB with holes in his game. Maybe just maybe there’s better fits for him.


I've said this a few times - the key in the negotiation is figuring out if Houston really likes a QB in this draft class.

If that's not their motivation, and they would be happy with a current young QB in the NFL (Jones, Darnold, etc), then I don't think a team would need to send a boat load of picks because you are helping them potentially solve the QB position. Maybe not as good as Watson, but someone with potential upside.

I feel the same way about the Jets if they were to get into the Watson sweepstakes. If they toss in Darnold, because Houston likes him, then less of a package of picks would be needed.

If Barkley is healthy, there may be some intrinsic value - arguably - because he could be marketed in a way to help sell more seats. That may be a stretch, but something to think about...
RE: RE: RE: Dan Orlovsky just said  
Section331 : 1/29/2021 12:35 pm : link
In comment 15137901 UConn4523 said:
Quote:


For sure. I know why people want to discount Jones, I completely understand. But I don’t subscribe to everyone outside of the organization thinking he sucks, I just don’t. Too many questionable QBs have gone on to success elsewhere or netted a decent or even very good haul in trades. Maybe just maybe the situation here isn’t conducive to nurturing a QB with holes in his game. Maybe just maybe there’s better fits for him.


I don't think it's about Jones sucking, I think it's more about HOU wanting to increase their chances of getting a franchise QB. It would be enormously risky to assume that Jones is going to be that guy. Now, outside of Lawrence, anyone they draft is going to be a question mark as well, but I think they would have a hard time selling Jones to their fans as Watson's replacement.

I still think Watson stays in HOU, and I would guess that their HC hire was one step to mend fences.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Dan Orlovsky just said  
bw in dc : 1/29/2021 2:36 pm : link
In comment 15138037 Section331 said:
Quote:

I don't think it's about Jones sucking, I think it's more about HOU wanting to increase their chances of getting a franchise QB. It would be enormously risky to assume that Jones is going to be that guy. Now, outside of Lawrence, anyone they draft is going to be a question mark as well, but I think they would have a hard time selling Jones to their fans as Watson's replacement.

I still think Watson stays in HOU, and I would guess that their HC hire was one step to mend fences.


What may help mending the fence, actually, is the hiring of Pep Hamilton as the QB coach for the Texans. On the heels of the development of Herbert, and being a minority, may at least give Watson a reason to have a conversation with the new staff...
RE: RE: RE: RE: Dan Orlovsky just said  
dpinzow : 1/29/2021 2:39 pm : link
In comment 15138037 Section331 said:
Quote:
In comment 15137901 UConn4523 said:


Quote:




For sure. I know why people want to discount Jones, I completely understand. But I don’t subscribe to everyone outside of the organization thinking he sucks, I just don’t. Too many questionable QBs have gone on to success elsewhere or netted a decent or even very good haul in trades. Maybe just maybe the situation here isn’t conducive to nurturing a QB with holes in his game. Maybe just maybe there’s better fits for him.



I don't think it's about Jones sucking, I think it's more about HOU wanting to increase their chances of getting a franchise QB. It would be enormously risky to assume that Jones is going to be that guy. Now, outside of Lawrence, anyone they draft is going to be a question mark as well, but I think they would have a hard time selling Jones to their fans as Watson's replacement.

I still think Watson stays in HOU, and I would guess that their HC hire was one step to mend fences.


I think ESPN is also driving a lot of the conversation here regarding Watson asking for a trade and giving Watson more power than he has. Watson is under contract until 2025 and the Texans can dare him to sit out a season if they so choose. If Watson goes through with the threat to sit out the 2021 season then they will have to trade him, but Houston still has cards to play for at least another year. It's not like Watson is out of contract. They just signed him to a deal last year.
I'm betting  
bc4life : 1/31/2021 10:07 am : link
Watson stays put
RE: I'm betting  
bw in dc : 1/31/2021 10:35 am : link
In comment 15139536 bc4life said:
Quote:
Watson stays put


It's going to be a fascinating situation. An argument can be made his market value went up even higher with the Stafford deal.

Watson is in complete shut down mode with the Texans. I don't think the relationship is reparable and I expect things to get even messier...
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