There are things that give me pause for how he ultimately turns out, but there is PLENTY of reason for optimism. The fact that there are so many here that have written him off is pathetic. Especially given the circumstances and lack of talent around him.
There are things that give me pause for how he ultimately turns out, but there is PLENTY of reason for optimism. The fact that there are so many here that have written him off is pathetic. Especially given the circumstances and lack of talent around him.
There is little reason for optimism that he will be good enough to win championships.
that 97% of the people on this forum seem to fail. On one hand there is the "PFF says it, therefore it is objective fact," and the other side that says "If PFF said it, it is made up and therefore objectively wrong." There is equal idiocy in both points of view.
that 97% of the people on this forum seem to fail. On one hand there is the "PFF says it, therefore it is objective fact," and the other side that says "If PFF said it, it is made up and therefore objectively wrong." There is equal idiocy in both points of view.
that many people here refuse to even acknowledge the clear improvements Jones made over the second half of the season. He had the dud against Zona while playing injured, but the whole team sucked that day. And he wasn't very good against Balt, but he was better than his teammates that day. the other 4 games or so he was solid or better. Some are just ignoring that while conjuring up the season stats while vomiting all over a thread.
"He had the dud against Zona while playing injured, but the whole team sucked that day. And he wasn't very good against Balt, but he was better than his teammates that day."
but I know sure as shit, if Jones was making the same mistakes in November and December and playing as poorly as he did earlier in the season, I would in no way shape or form be defending his overall progression in 2020 and I would think Judge and his staff would be saying nice things while doing something entirely different, behind the scenes.
Jones DID show progress. Some of you can't get your heads out of the overall stat page. Stats can be misleading. To be fair, not always, and Jones's stats aren't that good in 2020, but the first 8-10 games or so the stats were downright morbid. They did improve.
I'm done trying to persuade others that is he or isn't the answer since it looks like a slam dunk that he will be here next year.
Clearly, the best path forward for the Giants is that he's has "the goods".
Nobody is "convincing" anyone that Jones is good or bad, or he will eventually be good or bad. It is a fools errand.
You can pick out the fools because they keep starting Jones threads because they believe everyone should view everything the way they do and can't process any contrary information to their deeply held belief.
I'm done trying to persuade others that is he or isn't the answer since it looks like a slam dunk that he will be here next year.
yeah the team is NOT going to replace DJ at this point. No chance in that happening before 2022. So, to discuss a replacement at this point (whether you like him or not) is absolutely a waste of time... because it is not happening.
It would be more productive to discuss how we can win with what we have. Right now, we are still a 6 win team because we have not added any pieces yet. With this offense, we are likely only an 8 or 9 win team at best with a different QB.
It would have been difficult to maintain a level as poor as he showed for the whole 16 games.
That doesn't mean he's going to improve to a point where he's worth maintaining as the starter, though. He's still a long way from that.
At this point, why wouldn't you just root for that to be the case? I think it's pretty clear that management isn't going in a different direction. Everyone knows how you feel about it...
Is it more important to you that you be right about him not being good?
And BTW - I think it would be best for the Giants to move on from DJ...but at this point - what's the point of continuing to beat that dead horse?
His completion percentage was their justification it seems. A whopping 0.6%. Picks were down later in year, but TD-INT ratio low.
I saw improvement but I don't even think he's in Top 5 improved on the roster.
Feels like PFF didn't do much homework on this one across roster.
Gates exploded onto scene. Thomas improved throughout the year.
Peppers also was significantly better, as was Williams and Lawrence from last year. No mention of Gallman either which was strange given all his metrics went up significantly.
PFF has its faults, but at least they attempt to isolate the individual from the stats.
"NEW YORK GIANTS: QB DANIEL JONES
This one may seem like a mistake, given that many of Jones’ passing numbers actually took a step back in his second season, but those passing numbers don’t tell the entire story. Jones’ PFF grade — a number designed to isolate the play of a quarterback from his supporting cast — actually improved from 65.9 as a rookie to 78.4 in 2020.
The biggest reason for that improved grade was that Jones did a better job of keeping the ball out of harm’s way, reducing his number of turnover-worthy plays from 31 in 2019 to 17 this past season on a similar number of dropbacks. He also gave the Giants some added value with his athleticism as a runner. A better offensive environment should lead to better results for Jones next season"
Stats are so team dependant and the situation around DJ was some of the worst. But when you isolate what he did, it was pretty solid. I mean even the fumbles thing on paper was worse than what it was. The poor pass protection combined with the fumbles the QBs get credited for as last ball handler that clearly weren't his fault. He really only should have thrown 5 picks this year to his 11 TDS with zero RBs and no redzone threats.
It would have been difficult to maintain a level as poor as he showed for the whole 16 games.
That doesn't mean he's going to improve to a point where he's worth maintaining as the starter, though. He's still a long way from that.
At this point, why wouldn't you just root for that to be the case? I think it's pretty clear that management isn't going in a different direction. Everyone knows how you feel about it...
Is it more important to you that you be right about him not being good?
And BTW - I think it would be best for the Giants to move on from DJ...but at this point - what's the point of continuing to beat that dead horse?
Of course I'm rooting for him. But who gives a shit about what we're rooting for?
Daniel Jones isn't the dead horse that needs to be beaten. The dead horse is that the Giants are a poorly run organization that is more committed to its way of doing things than it is turning over every stone to try to win.
THAT is what is interesting to discuss. I don't give a shit what people are rooting for, and I don't expect them to care about what I'm rooting for. I'd rather discuss what is actually going on instead of our wishes.
run first football team ala the Browns. We are building someothing that is different than the rest of the NFL, and it's pretty clear success in NFL is about doing what everyone else is not, not following the herd. You want to be ahead of the curve. Just looking at PPG is a meaningless number. They were 13, but I'd be curious what they were as far as drive efficiency. Some teams try to keep the possessions to a minimum and we were one of them last year. Passing teams are naturally going to have more points because they run more plays with the increased clock stoppages and more plays run.
Why do we constantly have to define what a guy is or isn't so quickly?
Why do we constantly feel the need to speak in absolutes?
Life is about learning and improving. If a person has all the ability, I don't understand why we don't allow that they too can grow. If Jones can't make the throws, or make first downs with his feet, or whatever... He doesn't have the physical ability, okay. But he does. How would anybody here feel if they were told at 23 years old that's as good as it gets? Would anybody succeed, ever?
Daniel Jones isn't the dead horse that needs to be beaten. The dead horse is that the Giants are a poorly run organization that is more committed to its way of doing things than it is turning over every stone to try to win.
THAT is what is interesting to discuss. I don't give a shit what people are rooting for, and I don't expect them to care about what I'm rooting for. I'd rather discuss what is actually going on instead of our wishes.
We don't know what "actually" is going on. Just like the analytics guys tried to tell us the Giants weren't doing jackshit.
If you want to discuss what's going on - then at least know what the fuck is going on.
RE: Why do we constantly have to define what a guy is or isn't so quickly?
Why do we constantly feel the need to speak in absolutes?
Life is about learning and improving. If a person has all the ability, I don't understand why we don't allow that they too can grow. If Jones can't make the throws, or make first downs with his feet, or whatever... He doesn't have the physical ability, okay. But he does. How would anybody here feel if they were told at 23 years old that's as good as it gets? Would anybody succeed, ever?
This drives me nuts. The mental aspect of the game is so huge to progression and why many loved DJ, and a big reason Judge speaks so glowingly about him off the cuff. He sees the preparation on a day to day basis and how deals with set backs. Some guys spiral down and others keep moving forward and use it as teaching points. What I like about DJ is he isn't making the same mistakes over and over. This year was working on ball security and better decision making. He was higher and stronger with the ball and he was much more cognizant with the ball. In the beggining of the season the hesitation caused some ints, but the second half of the Bucs game you could see it all clicking. Very excited to see what he looks like next year.
This is the NFL, not an internship. He's almost certainly getting a third year as the unquestioned starter based not on his performance, but his draft status.
What's the goal here? Is it to nurture Jones's professional development, or is it to compete with 31 other organizations to win the Super Bowl?
This is the NFL, not an internship. He's almost certainly getting a third year as the unquestioned starter based not on his performance, but his draft status.
What's the goal here? Is it to nurture Jones's professional development, or is it to compete with 31 other organizations to win the Super Bowl?
He's getting a third year because he's shown the potential to be a very good QB in this league. I know you don't agree with that, but Judge certainly does, and it's his opinion is the one that matters.
No! There are dozens of careers on the line. If Jones isn't the best guy to help the Giants win now, they should be seeking a better alternative. Hoping and wishing he develops into something he hasn't shown himself to be is horrendous business.
Britt, I've asked this question many times and I'll ask you specifically here: of Jones were a UDFA do you think he'd be handed the starting job in 2021?
I say develop. Maybe that's where we disagree. You imply that he needs his hand held. I say he needs his coaches to help him develop.
as long as next year we decide I am good. I think the kid deserves all of next year. I will not be shitting on him half way through. I want to see his entire year an then evaluate. My patience for excuses is gone. I need accountability at some point. Too many double digit loss seasons. I think he is a great kid and I want him to succeed.
I would like a QB that can create when it all breaks down. I hope he can show that in 2021. I don't want to be satisfied with decent. I want more. I don't feel there is anything wrong with that.
This is the NFL, not an internship. He's almost certainly getting a third year as the unquestioned starter based not on his performance, but his draft status.
What's the goal here? Is it to nurture Jones's professional development, or is it to compete with 31 other organizations to win the Super Bowl?
He's getting a third year because he's shown the potential to be a very good QB in this league. I know you don't agree with that, but Judge certainly does, and it's his opinion is the one that matters.
Ironically, the 2006 version of Go Terps could have said the same thing about eli. Eli's 3rd season - 2006, regressed from 2005, including the team's record. Basically, if Eli was not a top draftee, he'd have been cut, traded, drawn and quartered. At least in the eyes of one delusional fan.
No! There are dozens of careers on the line. If Jones isn't the best guy to help the Giants win now, they should be seeking a better alternative. Hoping and wishing he develops into something he hasn't shown himself to be is horrendous business.
Britt, I've asked this question many times and I'll ask you specifically here: of Jones were a UDFA do you think he'd be handed the starting job in 2021?
What kind of question is that, really, and how can I even quantify it? He wasn't an UDFA. He was picked in the first round for a reason. And even if you believe that he would have made it to the 3rd round, he STILL wouldn't be an UDFA.
So how can I even answer that to say if he WAS one, then he would be signed and would compete for the job in camp like everybody else, and they would put the player on the field that gave them the best chance to win.
This is the NFL, not an internship. He's almost certainly getting a third year as the unquestioned starter based not on his performance, but his draft status.
What's the goal here? Is it to nurture Jones's professional development, or is it to compete with 31 other organizations to win the Super Bowl?
It’s both, mostly because the latter is not going to happen without the former. At least where Jones is the subject at hand.
How many great players would this league have missed out on....
Ironically, the 2006 version of Go Terps could have said the same thing about eli. Eli's 3rd season - 2006, regressed from 2005, including the team's record. Basically, if Eli was not a top draftee, he'd have been cut, traded, drawn and quartered. At least in the eyes of one delusional fan.
I remember with Eli people were saying he sucked after his second year. I didn't understand that at all because he showed the ability to get it done with a good cast around him. And that's what you need to win a SB in the NFL. Tom Brady has the name recognition, but on a hiearchy list of QBs by skill in the NFL today he's in the 8-12 range. DJ has certainly shown to be there. I thought he was certainly a top 20 QB in his second year and flirting with top 15 range. Needs to get in the top 12 range this year, but based on the guy we saw in second half of the year I'm confident he gets there.
The offensive line coach is very telling. They want to force teams into man because defensive coordinators aren't going to let you just march up and down the field running the ball and with Saquon back we will certainly do that.
It's easier to throw into man, but you need guys to consistently beat coverage and exactly why the Boys made that trade for Cooper and their offense took off. With DJ, you have the added bonus of him having elite speed with the guys turning their back to line of scrimmage and forcing a spy. We really just need to add 1 number 1 option to the passing game and SB to stay healthy and back to speed and we have potential to be top offense. Combined with the defense I really think we are the 6-10 to 10-6 football team this year.
"He had the dud against Zona while playing injured, but the whole team sucked that day. And he wasn't very good against Balt, but he was better than his teammates that day."
Sky high standards around here.
great--are you implying that good or even great QBs don't have duds throughout the season?
It would have been difficult to maintain a level as poor as he showed for the whole 16 games.
That doesn't mean he's going to improve to a point where he's worth maintaining as the starter, though. He's still a long way from that.
If Jones plays like he did against second philly game and second dallas game and cincy game throughout 2021, he will be just fine. We have seen games where Jones looked like a winning QB.
if any QB who hadn't produced up to snuff by year two were shipped off?
I'd like to see QBs that weren't pure athletes that took shit teams to immediate success. Every QB we know thats very good in this league either didn't play early, or went to good teams that traded up for their services. Josh Allen really took off in year 3 and that's pretty much the widely accepted belief in NFL that's where a guy is going to make his mark. Absolutely asinine to quit before that as long as your QB has shown potential to get it done. DJ has certainly shown that, not his fault our passing options suck combined with a poor pass blocking line. Good, veteran QBs aren't throwing more than 20 TDS in this situation and DJ has added bonus of his speed. I'm actually excited for him to actually be able to use it in a functional offense. That's where you want your QB running, on pass plays. Designed runs is only a matter of time before your guy gets hurt unless he's an elite athlete like Lamar.
Joe Judge went 6-10 as a head coach his first year.
Hey - why not fire Judge and hire Kliff Kingsbury? The Cardinals won 7 games....hey - why don't we hire Anthony Lynn as head coach? The Chargers won 7 games. Why don't we want to hire Jon Gruden? The Raiders had 8 wins.
in his last 6 starts and had 1 legit turnover with a tight end who can’t catch, running backs who don’t deserve to be on an active 53 man roster and hardly any receivers that can get open, so yeah call me crazy if I think he can improve greatly in a better situation.
I don't understand how you can't be excited for what he will look like
next year, he had one bad game in second half of the season, the Cards game. And it was clearly obvious he shouldn't have been thrown out there. Kudos to him, but Judge should have pulled the trigger on that, but I understand the thought process. Win that game and we are in drivers seat. The offensive game plan killed me in that one, they drew it up like DJ was healthy. Didn't even attempt really to establish run against a soft run defense. Pretty much the only game I had with the coaching staff all year.
The Ravens game was a mediocre performance, but obviously couldn't use his legs. You rob a guy that needs to rely on his legs all of a sudden they can't play their game and its instantly more difficult. A game like that is good for his long term growth though. The other 6 were average to very good performances.
I feel like you are searching for negatives if you are straight down on him. Lukewarm I get, still needs to put it together as far as the stats goes. But year 3 is where you can expect him to do it on his own a bit. Tough to do that when the obvious coaching point this year was ball security, trying to reduce risk and having your guy put his team on his back are too conflicting goals. Knowing the difference comes with experience. DJ certainly hasn't shown a natural propensity to be checkdown Charlie like Tua, quite the opposite in fact and I get why they wanted to use this year to work on the opposite side of things. I thought it was obvious they were breaking him down and building him up from ground up in certain aspects of his game. This was always a developmental and evaluation year for the whole team, DJ included. It just our division was so bad we ended up being in heat of race.
who wants to trade Jones for Matthew Stafford, a QB who looked way worse than Jones did when he first entered the league.
I'm not advocating trading for Stafford, but he missed almost all of his 2nd season, and threw for 5,000 yards and 41 TD's in his 3rd. I'm not sure he's the comparison you want to make.
you lack any credibility in your arguments. This isn’t going anywhere.
To the extent Terps lacks credibility, so do you. You both have your minds made up and nothing will deter either of you from your dogmatic belief in your own infallibility. The only difference between you is which end of the extreme spectrum you sit on.
in his last 6 starts and had 1 legit turnover with a tight end who can’t catch, running backs who don’t deserve to be on an active 53 man roster and hardly any receivers that can get open, so yeah call me crazy if I think he can improve greatly in a better situation.
1 legit turnover? He fumbled 6 times in those last 6 games, losing 2 of them. It's fair to give him a pass on the INT, as EE should have caught it, but fumbling has been his biggest issue, and it did not go away, no matter how much you want to fool yourself.
The fact that he lucked out and his own teammates recovered the majority of his fumbles doesn't make those fumbles disappear.
If you google around for QB rankings from the various sites with all their different grades and methods of grading Jones is always between 20-25. Take it for what it's worth. Probably not much.
Most of the people who post here have seen him play all his games and are emotionally invested with his success or failure. Objectively he stinks so far. By any measure of any metric he's not been a top half of the league QB so far. Joe Judge seems to be all in with him so hopefully he becomes one quickly.
If you google around for QB rankings from the various sites with all their different grades and methods of grading Jones is always between 20-25. Take it for what it's worth. Probably not much.
Most of the people who post here have seen him play all his games and are emotionally invested with his success or failure. Objectively he stinks so far. By any measure of any metric he's not been a top half of the league QB so far. Joe Judge seems to be all in with him so hopefully he becomes one quickly.
And that's the issue with using metrics for QBs. They are very team dependent. You need to think how guys will do when you replace situations. If you switched Mahomes and Brady two days ago the score is 60-3 probably. If you put every QB who got significant starting reps in the league into our situation the results aren't much better. I watch a ton of NFL and set up 3 tvs every week for the most part and DJ is certainly top 20 and flirting with top 15. This Aaron Rogers and Mahomes are probably only throwing for 25 TDs this year here and they are two of best in business right now.
If you google around for QB rankings from the various sites with all their different grades and methods of grading Jones is always between 20-25. Take it for what it's worth. Probably not much.
Most of the people who post here have seen him play all his games and are emotionally invested with his success or failure. Objectively he stinks so far. By any measure of any metric he's not been a top half of the league QB so far. Joe Judge seems to be all in with him so hopefully he becomes one quickly.
Quote:
Objectively he stinks so far
Correction: You mean subjectively. You’re quite welcome
Would have same stats with this shit OL and horrible WRs and TE. (Also with no RB). You saw it in the Super Bowl what no OL does. Look at the pressures. No QB would be in the top 15 in the league with the garbage we had. That being said last 6 games what QB turned it over less? Progress!!!
RE: Why do we constantly have to define what a guy is or isn't so quickly?
Why do we constantly feel the need to speak in absolutes?
Life is about learning and improving. If a person has all the ability, I don't understand why we don't allow that they too can grow. If Jones can't make the throws, or make first downs with his feet, or whatever... He doesn't have the physical ability, okay. But he does. How would anybody here feel if they were told at 23 years old that's as good as it gets? Would anybody succeed, ever?
It's pretty amazing.
And the same critics who've already written him off, don't seem to consider at all the unprecedented lack of OTAs, training camp, preseason games, rookie LT, starting C who's NEVER played C!, no #1 WR, a #1 target who leads the league in dropped passes resulting in INTs (6! Are you kidding me!?), etc. etc.
If anyone deserves a little benefit of the doubt for his soph year, it's Daniel Jones.
Would have same stats with this shit OL and horrible WRs and TE. (Also with no RB). You saw it in the Super Bowl what no OL does. Look at the pressures. No QB would be in the top 15 in the league with the garbage we had. That being said last 6 games what QB turned it over less? Progress!!!
That was suprising to watch. That's a very solid WR crew. Just goes to show you the yips these guys show in Superbowl. Apparently Engram thinks every week is the superbowl. If he ever makes one, I know who I'm not going to.
This is the NFL, not an internship. He's almost certainly getting a third year as the unquestioned starter based not on his performance, but his draft status.
What's the goal here? Is it to nurture Jones's professional development, or is it to compete with 31 other organizations to win the Super Bowl?
It’s both, mostly because the latter is not going to happen without the former. At least where Jones is the subject at hand.
Right... I'd say winning is the goal that is condition upon the method of developing Jones into a consistently functional starting QB, the sort that gives your team an advantage against the opposition when he steps on the field.
Daniel Jones record would've been 6-3 his last 9 games (and the Giants would've won the div). DJ played in at least 1 of the 3 losses severely injured and 1 of the losses was by 2 points to the eventual SB winner.
If you look at his stats, he clearly played better starting around that eagle game (until he injured himself and tried to come back against the Cards).
Is it possible he was playing better because his young OL was playing better?
And is it possible he'll play better when he has a legit #1 target instead of a league leader in dropped passes?
Is it possible he and the OL all play better next year with more experience, OTAs, camp?
Hard to believe so many have already written him off.
This is the NFL, not an internship. He's almost certainly getting a third year as the unquestioned starter based not on his performance, but his draft status.
What's the goal here? Is it to nurture Jones's professional development, or is it to compete with 31 other organizations to win the Super Bowl?
He's getting a third year because he's shown the potential to be a very good QB in this league. I know you don't agree with that, but Judge certainly does, and it's his opinion is the one that matters.
I feel he is getting a 3rd year because it is in the best interests of the NY Giants if he develops into a franchise QB.
I don't think it is because of his performance. The best win in Daniel Jones 2 years with the team came with him and Barkley on the bench. I think year 3 is put or shut up time for Daniel Jones. It would accomplish nothing for Judge to cast doubt, so please leave Judge's words out of it. FWIW if a coach feels the need for a public vote of confidence, there is probably some concern.
I don't have a record requirement or a TD mandate for year 3. I want to see him be the reason we win games. Make a comeback, inspire his teammates. Make me want to watch the NY Giants play because I don't want to miss something great he might do, because he does great things on the field with some frequency.
Daniel Jones record would've been 6-3 his last 9 games (and the Giants would've won the div). DJ played in at least 1 of the 3 losses severely injured and 1 of the losses was by 2 points to the eventual SB winner.
If you look at his stats, he clearly played better starting around that eagle game (until he injured himself and tried to come back against the Cards).
Is it possible he was playing better because his young OL was playing better?
And is it possible he'll play better when he has a legit #1 target instead of a league leader in dropped passes?
Is it possible he and the OL all play better next year with more experience, OTAs, camp?
Hard to believe so many have already written him off.
It was a poor pass, The defender had turned his back to the QB and was in chase mode, all Jones had to do was not overthrow that ball. If it is short, he get PI and if he hits him in stride it is a TD.
in his last 6 starts and had 1 legit turnover with a tight end who can’t catch, running backs who don’t deserve to be on an active 53 man roster and hardly any receivers that can get open, so yeah call me crazy if I think he can improve greatly in a better situation.
1 legit turnover? He fumbled 6 times in those last 6 games, losing 2 of them. It's fair to give him a pass on the INT, as EE should have caught it, but fumbling has been his biggest issue, and it did not go away, no matter how much you want to fool yourself.
The fact that he lucked out and his own teammates recovered the majority of his fumbles doesn't make those fumbles disappear.
The fumble directed at him that Gallman fumbled is counted in your statistic there. Not every single piece of info is cut and dry, is it?
Daniel Jones record would've been 6-3 his last 9 games (and the Giants would've won the div). DJ played in at least 1 of the 3 losses severely injured and 1 of the losses was by 2 points to the eventual SB winner.
If you look at his stats, he clearly played better starting around that eagle game (until he injured himself and tried to come back against the Cards).
Is it possible he was playing better because his young OL was playing better?
And is it possible he'll play better when he has a legit #1 target instead of a league leader in dropped passes?
Is it possible he and the OL all play better next year with more experience, OTAs, camp?
Hard to believe so many have already written him off.
I try not to address it much anymore even though what you’ve posted is exactly as I see it..Only 25 flucking games and people KNOW one way or the other
I don't think it is because of his performance. The best win in Daniel Jones 2 years with the team came with him and Barkley on the bench. I think year 3 is put or shut up time for Daniel Jones. It would accomplish nothing for Judge to cast doubt, so please leave Judge's words out of it. FWIW if a coach feels the need for a public vote of confidence, there is probably some concern.
I don't have a record requirement or a TD mandate for year 3. I want to see him be the reason we win games. Make a comeback, inspire his teammates. Make me want to watch the NY Giants play because I don't want to miss something great he might do, because he does great things on the field with some frequency.
Personally I think that Judge put that out there because he knew the fans and media were going to hammer about them moving on all offseason and didn't want the distraction all offseason. By saying it before he was asked about it, it was pretty clear his stance and why it really hasn't come up.
I don't have a TD mandate either and why I'd be reticent to put stats out there he needs to hit. One, have no idea what we are doing offseason, but I imagine we go with a rookie for that missing number 1 WR and rookies are rookies. Two, the offensive line coach hire is clear what we are trying to do next year. This is going to be a run first football team and try to control the game and put our defense in favorable positions. We'll certainly be on low end of NFL in possession per game.
We still have no redzone threats passing ball and I doubt Pitts is even there when we are on clock. But with the way the offensive line run blocks, Saquon back, and option for DJ to be extra man in running game, we should be almost unstoppable as is once we get down there. There won't be many passing TDs that don't come from big plays or the occasional play action down there.
Instead of looking out into the current landscape of what's going on in the NFL in 2021, we look back into the past to inform our thoughts. Why stop at Eli and Simms? What about Conerly and Tittle?
They're all irrelevant to Jones.
This wouldn't bother me if it was just the fans doing it, but it certainly feels like Mara/Gettleman are hoping Jones can stand in as substitute Manning until Arch Manning declares for the draft.
RE: Bringing up Eli and Simms is part of the problem
Instead of looking out into the current landscape of what's going on in the NFL in 2021, we look back into the past to inform our thoughts. Why stop at Eli and Simms? What about Conerly and Tittle?
They're all irrelevant to Jones.
This wouldn't bother me if it was just the fans doing it, but it certainly feels like Mara/Gettleman are hoping Jones can stand in as substitute Manning until Arch Manning declares for the draft.
But again - this is pure conjecture and wild speculation. What indications are there that the Giants are waiting for Arch Manning??
I mean - it is just another thing pulled from your ass without evidence. I feel like you could be a magician with an endless stream of rainbow-colored hankies being pulled from your anus daily.
RE: RE: RE: Of course Jones improved over the year
It would have been difficult to maintain a level as poor as he showed for the whole 16 games.
That doesn't mean he's going to improve to a point where he's worth maintaining as the starter, though. He's still a long way from that.
At this point, why wouldn't you just root for that to be the case? I think it's pretty clear that management isn't going in a different direction. Everyone knows how you feel about it...
Is it more important to you that you be right about him not being good?
And BTW - I think it would be best for the Giants to move on from DJ...but at this point - what's the point of continuing to beat that dead horse?
Of course I'm rooting for him. But who gives a shit about what we're rooting for?
Daniel Jones isn't the dead horse that needs to be beaten. The dead horse is that the Giants are a poorly run organization that is more committed to its way of doing things than it is turning over every stone to try to win.
THAT is what is interesting to discuss. I don't give a shit what people are rooting for, and I don't expect them to care about what I'm rooting for. I'd rather discuss what is actually going on instead of our wishes.
Neither are productive, please be honest. Who you root for and pointing out that the Giants are doing X poorly are both things that have absolutely zero impact on what happens from here.
Stop pretending that being critical is somehow productive - at the fan level it is not. You enjoy the conversation more and that’s perfectly fine, but that’s all it is.
I do enjoy the insights both for and against keep Jones, but some of it is so over the top that I either ignore it or just stop reading the thread. And I know you don’t care about what I do, just giving you some perspective on why you get the reactions that you get.
I'm not pretending any of this is productive as far as the Giants go.
I'm interested in understanding what's happening, good or bad. I'm not interesting in joining a collective session of self-delusion, which is then usually followed by a collective whitewashing where most pretend they didn't say what they actually said.
This thread is about Jones's performance, so let's talk honestly about Jones's performance. If the thread were entitled "I really like Daniel Jones and I'm rooting for him!" then I wouldn't have posted in here at all.
It's funny how we have evolved (or the game has evolved), isn't it?
I'm not pretending any of this is productive as far as the Giants go.
I'm interested in understanding what's happening, good or bad. I'm not interesting in joining a collective session of self-delusion, which is then usually followed by a collective whitewashing where most pretend they didn't say what they actually said.
This thread is about Jones's performance, so let's talk honestly about Jones's performance. If the thread were entitled "I really like Daniel Jones and I'm rooting for him!" then I wouldn't have posted in here at all.
Actually, you would have come on here to say: “What’s to like?”
If PFF is BS, then it is BS. You could argue that a good review by PFF means nothing, but you can't argue that a good review is evidence for exactly the opposite.
that 97% of the people on this forum seem to fail. On one hand there is the "PFF says it, therefore it is objective fact," and the other side that says "If PFF said it, it is made up and therefore objectively wrong." There is equal idiocy in both points of view.
I'm not pretending any of this is productive as far as the Giants go.
I'm interested in understanding what's happening, good or bad. I'm not interesting in joining a collective session of self-delusion, which is then usually followed by a collective whitewashing where most pretend they didn't say what they actually said.
This thread is about Jones's performance, so let's talk honestly about Jones's performance. If the thread were entitled "I really like Daniel Jones and I'm rooting for him!" then I wouldn't have posted in here at all.
Fair enough.
As for the PFF article the most notable takeaway for me was the drastic decrease in plays that could have resulted in a turnover. A lot of that is fumbles but some is poorly thrown balls. That tells me his completion % should likely be higher with a better supporting cast. He no doubt missed some throws to Slayton, but there’s others that were on a dime that were dropped.
I support a legit upgrade at QB if there was a realistic option. But I’m also excited to see what year 3 brings.
If PFF is BS, then it is BS. You could argue that a good review by PFF means nothing, but you can't argue that a good review is evidence for exactly the opposite.
Did I say it wasn't BS??
It is BS. The only thing that I'm pointing out is that many more posters will likely call it that now - because it goes against their pitchfork thrusting.
It's about (what people like myself consider) the premature judgement (which both Eli and Simms were victims of).
I don't know if Jones is going to eventually be good enough to win a championship or not. I just don't know how people like you are so sure he never will be.
To make a final judgement after the shitty hand he's been dealt? New coach, no OTAs, rookie LT, a center who never played center, no preseason, a joke for #1 target, etc., etc.
Could we see him play with a legit #1 target?
Engram was possibly the worst "#1 target" I've ever seen on the Giants.
RE: RE: RE: Of course Jones improved over the year
...the Giants are a poorly run organization that is more committed to its way of doing things than it is turning over every stone to try to win.
THAT is what is interesting to discuss. I don't give a shit what people are rooting for, and I don't expect them to care about what I'm rooting for. I'd rather discuss what is actually going on instead of our wishes.
I think we know that you think the poor Giants organization is interesting...it is literally all you ever seem to talk about.
As for the PFF article the most notable takeaway for me was the drastic decrease in plays that could have resulted in a turnover. A lot of that is fumbles but some is poorly thrown balls. That tells me his completion % should likely be higher with a better supporting cast. He no doubt missed some throws to Slayton, but there’s others that were on a dime that were dropped.
I support a legit upgrade at QB if there was a realistic option. But I’m also excited to see what year 3 brings.
We have people here that think DJ is an inaccurate QB which I don't get at all. Do they watch the rest of the NFL? QBs miss throws. DJ is certainly among the ones that miss some of the fewest throws. It's certainly one of his plus attributes. They are just highlighted to shit because our guys barely get open and opportunities are limited.
There was a deep throw that he "missed" to Slayton who had his guy by half step that SY highlighted in his review as a negative. Personally I put that one in the neutral throw bucket because he gave his WR a chance to make a play and it wasn't able to be intercepted. It's just that Slayton is completely inept on going up and getting a ball in traffic. It just gets beyond highlighted because the opps are few and far between. He's the type of QB that needs guys that can complete plays because his game is more accuracy driven. Josh Allen misses may more throws, but flip side is he can make purely arm driven plays much easier. Shit Mahomes misses two or three a game because his feet stink and why he wasn't drafted higher.
and yes....it could end up being the case that Daniel Jones doesn't become the franchise QB we all hope he does become.
But there are a select few posters here who are absolutely, 100% unequivocally saying that he can't be that guy. and that, quite frankly, is complete and utter bullshit, and stuff that goes unchecked around here on a daily basis
If Jones posts a 25/14 year next year, will anyone change their opinion on Jones?
My personal view is that I think it's unlikely Jones will develop into a top ten QB - which I think is needed to build a consistent contender. I will change my opinion if we see a 35/10 year next year (or something like that, I'm not hung up on specific numbers, just speaking generally). I don't even think his biggest supporters think he'll be a top ten QB. I haven't seen a single case advocating that. But I think anything less than a top ten QB is mostly a waste of time if you want to win championships.
The griping over whether Jones is average or worse is a waste of time to me. I see Jones' biggest supporters talk about fairly average performances by Jones in hopeful terms. The Giants are trying to win Super Bowls, not be 8-8.
I also don't see a lot of the mitigating circumstances changing next year. Barkley will be back. Maybe we add a receiver. But I don't think we'll have good weapons next year.
I have no problem giving Jones another year, I am in total agreement that he should be our starting QB next year. But I need an objective good year next year to be happy. Not improvement, not excuses, etc.
I'll be floored if he does, but anything can happen.
I've watched him play for three years at Duke and never once did I ever feel as if I were watching a future NFL star. Nothing about this guy has ever been terribly impressive other than his straight line speed.
I've never said anything about you in terms of your opinion of Jones. You're entitled to that, much like Dunk, Greg, etc. That's all well and good. You think he sucks. No problem there.
I'm just defending my view of him, along with others, and you can't seem to grasp that. That's the difference.
...
This thread is about Jones's performance, so let's talk honestly about Jones's performance. If the thread were entitled "I really like Daniel Jones and I'm rooting for him!" then I wouldn't have posted in here at all.
That's where I am, they need WRs, to finish the OL, and potentially find an upgrade to Gallman, not to mention TEs.
It's a lot to do in one offseason, especially when the defense has roughly as many needs.
25/14 and protecting the football would be a positive reflection, one that could be the type of jump we hoped to see from him in 2020. I think Jones gets 2021 and 2022 to show the desired progress, and so far there's a lot of holes in his game.
I have noticed Jones's QBR went from 55.7 in 2019 to 61.4 in 2020. The only reason I can think of for that - because the eye test doesn't support improvement in my eyes - is the inclusion of Jones's running stats. If that was backed out, and Jones was judged purely as a thrower, I can't imagine his QBR improving YoY.
That's where I am, they need WRs, to finish the OL, and potentially find an upgrade to Gallman, not to mention TEs.
It's a lot to do in one offseason, especially when the defense has roughly as many needs.
25/14 and protecting the football would be a positive reflection, one that could be the type of jump we hoped to see from him in 2020. I think Jones gets 2021 and 2022 to show the desired progress, and so far there's a lot of holes in his game.
Jon - that's a totally fair assessment, although I don't think he gets 2022 if he doesn't improve a lot.
More games like the home Philly, home Dallas, and none like home Tampa and he is on his way.
I have noticed Jones's QBR went from 55.7 in 2019 to 61.4 in 2020. The only reason I can think of for that - because the eye test doesn't support improvement in my eyes - is the inclusion of Jones's running stats. If that was backed out, and Jones was judged purely as a thrower, I can't imagine his QBR improving YoY.
I have noticed Jones's QBR went from 55.7 in 2019 to 61.4 in 2020. The only reason I can think of for that - because the eye test doesn't support improvement in my eyes - is the inclusion of Jones's running stats. If that was backed out, and Jones was judged purely as a thrower, I can't imagine his QBR improving YoY.
Let's say that is an accurate accounting (I am going on blindly on this since you say a lot of things where one should keep a tight grip on skepticism). Why is running ability and the totality of a player not indicative of his value?
That's where I am, they need WRs, to finish the OL, and potentially find an upgrade to Gallman, not to mention TEs.
It's a lot to do in one offseason, especially when the defense has roughly as many needs.
25/14 and protecting the football would be a positive reflection, one that could be the type of jump we hoped to see from him in 2020. I think Jones gets 2021 and 2022 to show the desired progress, and so far there's a lot of holes in his game.
Jon - that's a totally fair assessment, although I don't think he gets 2022 if he doesn't improve a lot.
More games like the home Philly, home Dallas, and none like home Tampa and he is on his way.
I think they'll find reasons to keep him in 2022. They're likely going to need another really bad season in order to change their minds, to get another top 5 draft pick to help find a QB more easily. Of course, the QB doesn't always need to be picked high but better odds.
Ryan, fair point - outside of Jackson, are any of those QBs top ten guys? I'm not really sold on Mayfield. I think Stafford will have much better numbers on the Rams.
I like Murray, too, I think he can be a top ten QB. I don't think he's there yet. Outside of him and Jackson, I wouldn't be totally thrilled with the guys on that list leading my team.
I'm not beholden to specific numbers. I won't be shitting on Jones if he goes 29/9. But I don't want average performance jammed down my throat as if it's great, lol.
That's where I am, they need WRs, to finish the OL, and potentially find an upgrade to Gallman, not to mention TEs.
It's a lot to do in one offseason, especially when the defense has roughly as many needs.
25/14 and protecting the football would be a positive reflection, one that could be the type of jump we hoped to see from him in 2020. I think Jones gets 2021 and 2022 to show the desired progress, and so far there's a lot of holes in his game.
Agreed - the Jones decision isn't made in a vacuum. If we are here 12 months from now and Jones goes 25/14 and the team is 8-8, I'd probably continue believing Jones isn't the guy to lead us to championships. However, I also don't think we'd have a quality option to upgrade the QB position with that record.
I desperately want Jones to prove me wrong, because I see a long road of average or worse football ahead if I'm right.
no...all those guys aren't top 10...but Ben and Tannehill had over 30...would you consider them top 10 QBs?
I guess what I'm saying is, this "30" measure that BBI has recently given is weird to me. Yeah, it's great to have over 30 TDs. But just because you do or don't, doesn't mean you are in, or not in, the top 10.
As said previously, Eli had 35 and 14 in 2015. He wasn't a top 10 QB. He had 29 TD in his best season ever, and it wasn't even close. I'd argue he was a top 5 QB that year.
Depending on the makeup of the team, You could go 24 and 8 and be a really, really good QB.
Mahomes and Watson both had under 30 TD's passing in 2019. Are they top 10?
That's where I am, they need WRs, to finish the OL, and potentially find an upgrade to Gallman, not to mention TEs.
It's a lot to do in one offseason, especially when the defense has roughly as many needs.
25/14 and protecting the football would be a positive reflection, one that could be the type of jump we hoped to see from him in 2020. I think Jones gets 2021 and 2022 to show the desired progress, and so far there's a lot of holes in his game.
Agreed - the Jones decision isn't made in a vacuum. If we are here 12 months from now and Jones goes 25/14 and the team is 8-8, I'd probably continue believing Jones isn't the guy to lead us to championships. However, I also don't think we'd have a quality option to upgrade the QB position with that record.
I desperately want Jones to prove me wrong, because I see a long road of average or worse football ahead if I'm right.
Yep, that's the systemic and leadership fear that motivates Terps and others to cut bait sooner, that Jones is just one symptom of the larger scale problems.
I have noticed Jones's QBR went from 55.7 in 2019 to 61.4 in 2020. The only reason I can think of for that - because the eye test doesn't support improvement in my eyes - is the inclusion of Jones's running stats. If that was backed out, and Jones was judged purely as a thrower, I can't imagine his QBR improving YoY.
Let's say that is an accurate accounting (I am going on blindly on this since you say a lot of things where one should keep a tight grip on skepticism). Why is running ability and the totality of a player not indicative of his value?
I think it is - to a degree. However, I'm not sure it's something we should count on every year. It's a more dynamic piece for Jones. If Jones was more like LJax, I could see giving it more weight.
But all I really care about is Jones's ability to be a thrower. Because that's the vehicle he is going to have to use to score points much more often than not...If he can't throw and complete passes at the right level, we need a different solution.
ryan, I agree that 30 TDs isn't some fool-proof binary measure of whether a QB is top ten or not.
10 QBs hit 30 this year. 4 in 2019. 9 in 2018. It's a good approximation of a quality passing game. Stats have outliers.
I will probably be pretty happy with Jones if he hits 30 TDs and has a reasonable amount of INT's next year. I have a somewhat strong view that Jones is not going to be a top ten QB. I find setting objective measures like that helps me mitigate doubling down when I'm wrong. There are a lot of reasons why Jones can have a good season and not get there, but stats provide a helpful but not complete measure to analyze performance.
Jameis Winston had more than all of them. Is he better than them?
30 isn't the end all number, but I think when you look year over year in the stat sheets, its likely the top 10 qbs in the game are reaching that number. Its an indicator that the offense is putting points on the board.
You've pointed out a couple of outliers, which I agree make the case its not necessarily indicative in a particular year (though I believe Mahomes missed a few games in 2019, so he likely exceeds that threshold). There could be times where a qb puts together an amazing drive, like Jones one drive against Pitt game 1 that ended in an unfortunate INT, and the ball is run in to finish the drive.
and you could easily say, well if Jones had played all 16 games in 2019, he would have gotten 30, he probably end up with 30 and 16 or something....does that mean he was some amazing quarterback that year? No. we were down a lot.
Stats don't tell the whole picture. Everyone pretty much understands that Deshaun Watson is a top 5 or 6 NFL quarterback. And yet....he has only been over 30 TD once in his NFL career. Why is that? Because the Texans stink, that's why.
But if Jones throws for 24 and 7, instead of 35 and 18....what would you rather have? 24 and 7 would tell me that we are likely a much better team, because we are running the ball and leading games.
and yes....it could end up being the case that Daniel Jones doesn't become the franchise QB we all hope he does become.
But there are a select few posters here who are absolutely, 100% unequivocally saying that he can't be that guy. and that, quite frankly, is complete and utter bullshit, and stuff that goes unchecked around here on a daily basis
Are you kidding?? It gets checked, re-checked, triple checked and argued about until the cows come home on almost every thread.
Too many of you are completely obsessed with every post Go Terps puts out there. He has his views and you all hate them and/or the way he states them...every single time.
It's actually kind of weird the following he takes on with you chuckleheads.
Jones accumulated most of his TDs in three starts. And I found Jones' rookie season promising even though it wasn't an objectively great performance by NFL QB standards.
typical bullshit from you. You don't go outside and say the sky is green and then when someone argues with you, you say "look I'm just minding my own business!"
but I know sure as shit, if Jones was making the same mistakes in November and December and playing as poorly as he did earlier in the season, I would in no way shape or form be defending his overall progression in 2020 and I would think Judge and his staff would be saying nice things while doing something entirely different, behind the scenes.
Jones DID show progress. Some of you can't get your heads out of the overall stat page. Stats can be misleading. To be fair, not always, and Jones's stats aren't that good in 2020, but the first 8-10 games or so the stats were downright morbid. They did improve.
ryan, I agree that 30 TDs isn't some fool-proof binary measure of whether a QB is top ten or not.
10 QBs hit 30 this year. 4 in 2019. 9 in 2018. It's a good approximation of a quality passing game. Stats have outliers.
I will probably be pretty happy with Jones if he hits 30 TDs and has a reasonable amount of INT's next year. I have a somewhat strong view that Jones is not going to be a top ten QB. I find setting objective measures like that helps me mitigate doubling down when I'm wrong. There are a lot of reasons why Jones can have a good season and not get there, but stats provide a helpful but not complete measure to analyze performance.
I like 30TDs as a metric.
We need to score more points than the dismal 17ppg this year.
So what should be the goal as a team to be in every game? 26ppg? Does that sound reasonable? I believe most of the teams in the playoffs were at that threshold or higher.
Thus, that means: 26 X 16 = 416 total needed points to compete.
What you say this equals in TDs per game? At least 2.5? Then you throw in FGs, etc.
Well, the defense and return teams can't be counted on to be a huge % of that total, right?
So it's passing league. Which means DJones has to be the guy behind the majority of the points...
You want to believe he'll get significantly better, that's your prerogative. But know that you are waiting for something to happen that did not happen for him in 3 years at Duke as a starter, or 2 years at NYG as a starter. There is no basis in past reality for expecting Jones to get significantly better. Doesn't mean it can't happen - it just means it will be new territory for him.
I suspect that most people on BBI are coming around to that realization, given the discussions this winter around not needing a great QB to win a Super Bowl. You can feel the expectations being lowered.
ryan, I agree that 30 TDs isn't some fool-proof binary measure of whether a QB is top ten or not.
10 QBs hit 30 this year. 4 in 2019. 9 in 2018. It's a good approximation of a quality passing game. Stats have outliers.
I will probably be pretty happy with Jones if he hits 30 TDs and has a reasonable amount of INT's next year. I have a somewhat strong view that Jones is not going to be a top ten QB. I find setting objective measures like that helps me mitigate doubling down when I'm wrong. There are a lot of reasons why Jones can have a good season and not get there, but stats provide a helpful but not complete measure to analyze performance.
Setting it at 30 is an unreasonable expectation though considering we just signed an offensive line coach that specializes in building lines who run block. Pretty obvious what our identity is going to try to be with the way the team is constructed. We still don't have an redzone passing threats. I think 25 is a much more reasonable mark for what this team is trying to construct. If he hits 25 passing TDs and keeps the ints to around 8, this will certainly be a playoff team next year unless Saquon goes down early again or he's the one guy his DR worked on that he doesn't do miracles with.
Jameis Winston had more than all of them. Is he better than them?
For starters, Mahomes threw 26 in 14 games. And only 5 INTs. And averaged 8.3 Y/A.
Your ability to constantly avoid context in any of your posts is remarkable, it's right up there with your ability to create insane strawman arguments.
Jameis Winston threw 30 INTs, which was more than Mahomes, Brady, Rodgers and Watson combined. So no, he was not better.
If you're not careful, people are going to believe this dumb act you're putting on isn't an act.
Jameis Winston had more than all of them. Is he better than them?
For starters, Mahomes threw 26 in 14 games. And only 5 INTs. And averaged 8.3 Y/A.
Your ability to constantly avoid context in any of your posts is remarkable, it's right up there with your ability to create insane strawman arguments.
Jameis Winston threw 30 INTs, which was more than Mahomes, Brady, Rodgers and Watson combined. So no, he was not better.
If you're not careful, people are going to believe this dumb act you're putting on isn't an act.
You want to believe he'll get significantly better, that's your prerogative. But know that you are waiting for something to happen that did not happen for him in 3 years at Duke as a starter, or 2 years at NYG as a starter. There is no basis in past reality for expecting Jones to get significantly better. Doesn't mean it can't happen - it just means it will be new territory for him.
I suspect that most people on BBI are coming around to that realization, given the discussions this winter around not needing a great QB to win a Super Bowl. You can feel the expectations being lowered.
Again, I call Bullshit. I never said or implied “he’ll get significantly better.” I said I he MIGHT, but after only 25 games, I simply don’t KNOW YET..
Assuming he’s healthy and plays a full season in 2021, I’ll have a better, perhaps much better read on how he’s performing. Will it be a conclusive read? Not sure, but definitely better imv..
Do any of them talk about his fumbles? Seems to me that was ALL they wanted to talk about after 2019.
I guess not.....
He drastically improved......so better find something else to bitch about.....let’s talk about TD passes now.
Don’t forget their end game.....FIRE DG! They need To make this draft pick look bad..... very bad. Remember, they lost the LWilliams trade as ammo.
Eye-rolling post...
Jones did improve his turnover rate, but in doing so had less big plays with his arm, his TD% dropped precipitously and the Giants scored a lot less points.
The idea is to have the turnover rate go down while the productivity goes up, or at least stays the same.
ryan, I agree that 30 TDs isn't some fool-proof binary measure of whether a QB is top ten or not.
10 QBs hit 30 this year. 4 in 2019. 9 in 2018. It's a good approximation of a quality passing game. Stats have outliers.
I will probably be pretty happy with Jones if he hits 30 TDs and has a reasonable amount of INT's next year. I have a somewhat strong view that Jones is not going to be a top ten QB. I find setting objective measures like that helps me mitigate doubling down when I'm wrong. There are a lot of reasons why Jones can have a good season and not get there, but stats provide a helpful but not complete measure to analyze performance.
Setting it at 30 is an unreasonable expectation though considering we just signed an offensive line coach that specializes in building lines who run block. Pretty obvious what our identity is going to try to be with the way the team is constructed. We still don't have an redzone passing threats. I think 25 is a much more reasonable mark for what this team is trying to construct. If he hits 25 passing TDs and keeps the ints to around 8, this will certainly be a playoff team next year unless Saquon goes down early again or he's the one guy his DR worked on that he doesn't do miracles with.
Sure, there are other variables - I may be very happy with a 25/8 season. I'm not 100% sure yet, obviously. But I think you're lowering the bar already. Most teams that win Super Bowls have much elite passing games. Not all, sure. But I think we need to demand better performance.
You guys act the extreme ends of political discourse
You want to fight with each other more than you want to discuss something critically. If your usual insult buddy isn't in a thread you troll for them.
Those of you that hate each other on this board are the same, the only difference being which side of the fence you stand on.
This comes from someone that has has actually changed his mind on topics based on new information and agrees with both sides regularly on certain points.
Could you please tone it down just a notch?
If it turns out that you end up being right or wrong about what Jones is don't pat yourself on the back. You were lucky. Almost none of us know shit. They ones that have real knowledge are very careful with absolutes because they know better.
But his sole solution is to get rid of everyone all the time. Get rid of Beckham, get rid of JPP, get rid of Jones, etc. I feel he'd put his own kid up for adoption if he forgot to do a homework.
But his sole solution is to get rid of everyone all the time. Get rid of Beckham, get rid of JPP, get rid of Jones, etc. I feel he'd put his own kid up for adoption if he forgot to do a homework.
But his sole solution is to get rid of everyone all the time. Get rid of Beckham, get rid of JPP, get rid of Jones, etc. I feel he'd put his own kid up for adoption if he forgot to do a homework.
That's not fair. He also didn't make his bed up in the morning once last week and didn't take out the trash when it was his turn two months ago.
But his sole solution is to get rid of everyone all the time. Get rid of Beckham, get rid of JPP, get rid of Jones, etc. I feel he'd put his own kid up for adoption if he forgot to do a homework.
You mean like Little Bill? It isn't crazy. How many football players actually are worth the 2nd contract? Patriots had sustained success by letting, players walk, getting extra draft picks and trading back.
That said, this isn't Madden and we don't have Tom Brady accepting less than market value because he wants to win. I could get with Terps on a lot of what he wants but we have to get there first.
Truth is that we all want the Giants to start winning.
I’m sure most of the people preaching patience with Jones are already taking a victory lap on Darnold.
This is made up bullshit. MANY of the same posters that are supporting Jones were also adamant that the Giants take Darnold. They wanted a young QB at any cost. And I don’t see those same posters taking victory laps on Darnold.
There is plenty to discuss without making shit up. What purpose does that serve?
But his sole solution is to get rid of everyone all the time. Get rid of Beckham, get rid of JPP, get rid of Jones, etc. I feel he'd put his own kid up for adoption if he forgot to do a homework.
Well I was right on both of them...
Both of who? Beckham, yes. JPP? He just won his second super bowl. Jones? Jury is still out.
You are just missing a key component, these are people not some linear asset. You have to have the right group of people together to watch something grow. What I do know with 100% certain is constant change never works and that is what you preach. I like that you think differently and have opposing views. But you fail on the human element. People and teams aren't linear. It is okay to make mistakes. The key is learning from them and avoiding them in the future. You can look at these pieces in isolation. But it is how the system works. Imo, Gettleman and Judge work very well together. I want to see this continue. Last FA reminded me of the year that we got Plax, Pierce, and McKenzie. I'd like to see that develop even more. I know you dont.
But his sole solution is to get rid of everyone all the time. Get rid of Beckham, get rid of JPP, get rid of Jones, etc. I feel he'd put his own kid up for adoption if he forgot to do a homework.
You mean like Little Bill? It isn't crazy. How many football players actually are worth the 2nd contract? Patriots had sustained success by letting, players walk, getting extra draft picks and trading back.
I really dislike the hard cap model in the NFL. I wish the NFL was either more like the MLB model, or a softer cap NBA model with exceptions.
But the players are too stupid to dictate more favorable terms.
So as a fan, I have adapted over the years to look at everything through a cost-benefit analysis. And the sooner you can determine a player's value, the better. Even if you have to take less evidence to project forward faster because the player isn't producing early.
Patience, I believe, is really no longer a virtue in the NFL. It's just more time to likely make a worse decision. Unfortunately that's just the nature of trying to manage the cap well. Sure, you might make a mistake by jettisoning a player too early, but that's where you need the most contemporary methods to help manage that risk...
The salary cap isn’t new, and teams have been figuring out....
"Jones didn't get better at Duke" argument. Except that whole sophomore to junior year difference of 4% completion percentage, almost a single point better Y/A, 8 more TD, and 2 less INT.
how to navigate it while still showing patience with developing players going on over two decades at this point.
The NFL game hasn't been the same for two decades. The rules and the college game have dictated which positions are most valuable and which are fungible. It's adapt or die...and at a quicker pace.
"Jones didn't get better at Duke" argument. Except that whole sophomore to junior year difference of 4% completion percentage, almost a single point better Y/A, 8 more TD, and 2 less INT.
But yeah, he didn't get any better.
Pat Kirwan who saw a lot of DJ at Duke, said that it is indeed a fact, uncanny really, how bad his receivers were during DJ’s stint there. He was mainly referencing the myriad of drops on nicely thrown balls by DJ he suffered through the years. He’s not perfect as an analyst, but I’ll take his judgement on talent over most on here
Yet another reason to ignore PFF. Regardless of how you feel about Jones, I think you would be hard pressed to find anyone here who thinks he significantly improved or even improved at all from last year. T=But, they take it a step further and say most improved? I don't even think he would fall in the top 5 for the Giants in terms of improvement.
which was his #1 issue in 2019. As close to a fact as there is in this argument. Next up is his progressions and 2020 is very strange to assess because there was no real threat. I know people think Gallman did well, and he did in a way, but he really shouldn’t be getting a full game of carries, 5-8 per game to spell Barkley would be my guess. He’s zero threat in the grand scheme of things.
So when you’ve got no threat at RB, a TE who should be a threat that drops critical passes, a below average WR corps, and a brand new line, you aren’t going to get great results.
Coaches and analysts are going to be able to pick apart film a lot better than BBI can. I’m guessing there’s some good tape out there that highlight his pluses. Hopefully a better support staff can help him clean up what he doesn’t excel at.
RE: RE: The salary cap isn’t new, and teams have been figuring out....
how to navigate it while still showing patience with developing players going on over two decades at this point.
The NFL game hasn't been the same for two decades. The rules and the college game have dictated which positions are most valuable and which are fungible. It's adapt or die...and at a quicker pace.
And when did that start? Circa 2009 with the proliferation of the spread offense? It’s a new debate on whether that’s here to stay or not. The NFL is ever evolving.
Jones got significantly better from his SO to JR season at Duke. Just because you say he didn't, doesn't mean it isn't 100% false.
You're misunderstanding what I said.
Jones has not shown himself to be a really good player either at Duke or with the Giants. If he becomes a really good quarterback it will be something we haven't seen yet.
Do any of them talk about his fumbles? Seems to me that was ALL they wanted to talk about after 2019.
I guess not.....
He drastically improved......so better find something else to bitch about.....let’s talk about TD passes now.
Don’t forget their end game.....FIRE DG! They need To make this draft pick look bad..... very bad. Remember, they lost the LWilliams trade as ammo.
Eye-rolling post...
Jones did improve his turnover rate, but in doing so had less big plays with his arm, his TD% dropped precipitously and the Giants scored a lot less points.
The idea is to have the turnover rate go down while the productivity goes up, or at least stays the same.
exactly right. Jones went from a turnover prose gunslinger to an ineffective game manager. Both versions of Jones are atrocious. He is unlikely to improve enough to be a champion QB. His absolute ceiling looks like Kirk Cousins. but I doubt he will turn out to be that good.
While Daniel Jones isn’t the stud that Justin Herbert was out of the..
gate, he still has the physical skills to be successful in the types of offenses the NFL is running right now. He is a project just like Allen was, and like Allen unwritten after only a season or two.
Secondly, I see Duke mentioned a couple times now in this thread. How many Duke players that Jones played with are in the NFL? Zero. So far, at the very least he’s proved he can be out there. And no, that’s not the bar, but he’s a work in progress.
Jones got significantly better from his SO to JR season at Duke. Just because you say he didn't, doesn't mean it isn't 100% false.
You're misunderstanding what I said.
Jones has not shown himself to be a really good player either at Duke or with the Giants. If he becomes a really good quarterback it will be something we haven't seen yet.
It's based on faith and hope.
You love those two words, haha.
You know we are fans right? And as a fan I can hope Jones will get better with better players around him. I can hope year 3 will be better fortune for the whole team. Not everything has to be rooteded in hard data. Maybe for the professionals it does but certainly not me.
And if what PFF is posting is accurate, he did in fact improve in a major area in 2020. I've also talked about how he cost us 2 wins easy with bone headed plays, and so did Engram. I think its reasonable to assume that if he continues to clean up his decision making, and the skill positions show up, that we are a baseline .500 team with plenty of room to grow.
No that isn't what I want, but I think its realistic. And from there the choice is - do i leverage a ton of picks for a trade up or Watson, or keep things as is and build the roster better. I know what route we are taking vs. what you want but that's that.
Jones got significantly better from his SO to JR season at Duke. Just because you say he didn't, doesn't mean it isn't 100% false.
You're misunderstanding what I said.
Jones has not shown himself to be a really good player either at Duke or with the Giants. If he becomes a really good quarterback it will be something we haven't seen yet.
It's based on faith and hope.
You love those two words, haha.
You know we are fans right? And as a fan I can hope Jones will get better with better players around him. I can hope year 3 will be better fortune for the whole team. Not everything has to be rooteded in hard data. Maybe for the professionals it does but certainly not me.
And if what PFF is posting is accurate, he did in fact improve in a major area in 2020. I've also talked about how he cost us 2 wins easy with bone headed plays, and so did Engram. I think its reasonable to assume that if he continues to clean up his decision making, and the skill positions show up, that we are a baseline .500 team with plenty of room to grow.
No that isn't what I want, but I think its realistic. And from there the choice is - do i leverage a ton of picks for a trade up or Watson, or keep things as is and build the roster better. I know what route we are taking vs. what you want but that's that.
And what’s interesting about the dynamic of the options you mention are (in reference to Go Terps’ stance) that trading for Watson seriously hinders the ability to build the team around him, both in cap space and future premium draft picks. Something Go Terps harps on constantly.
Which is actually pretty outrageous when you think about it.
Go Terps says that why not trade 3-4 first round picks because our first round picks are shitty. And then double down on it by saying something like the Texans wouldn’t accept it if we offered Barkley, Jones, Lawrence, and Thomas for Watson, implying that all our first round picks are shit. Talk about hopes and dreams vs reality.
Personally, I think if the Giants offered the above deal, the Texans couldn’t accept fast enough.
I got nothing to add about DJ other than I thought he had a good rookie season-turnovers, I know, but so did P. Manning & no, I'm not comparing the two in terms of how Jones' career will play out- & regressed this season.
2021 is probably a make or break year. Hopefully we have a serious upgrade at the skill positions.
And I hope Jones goes out this fall & looks legit because I don't want to be in QB hell, again.
and if you think he is the money shouldn’t matter, so I agree with him there. I’d rather pay Watson $40m than Stafford $25m and I like stafford but they aren’t in the same class.
What I don’t want to do is pay big money to a Cousins. Just not good enough to offset the cap burden.
But $40m in addition to giving up 3+ firsts is a no go for me. That’s just a fuck ton of ammo that guys like Judge definitely don’t want to give up.
builds in a time to make the cost-benefit analysis. There is little penalty for waiting on young players to develop:
Quote:
So as a fan, I have adapted over the years to look at everything through a cost-benefit analysis. And the sooner you can determine a player's value, the better. Even if you have to take less evidence to project forward faster because the player isn't producing early.
Patience, I believe, is really no longer a virtue in the NFL. It's just more time to likely make a worse decision. Unfortunately that's just the nature of trying to manage the cap well. Sure, you might make a mistake by jettisoning a player too early, but that's where you need the most contemporary methods to help manage that risk...
There's little benefit to moving on from a player on a rookie contract. While there is a point to be made about an opportunity cost if you wait for a player to excel that doesn't, there's an equally strong argument to make that a player who blossoms late still has a greater value than a replacement. At QB - that's often a risk worth taking, especially if a team goes the route of a mediocre veteran.
Look at the Panthers. Cam leaves. They drafted Will Grier, but he didn't look like a guy who could step in - so they got a vet - Bridgewater. And they gave him a 3 year, $66M contract. If you want to talk about a cost benefit there, you'll be hard pressed to find it. They'd have been just as well off throwing a draftee, or a cheap replacement vet in there. That's where the cost benefit aspect hits. Seldom does it for a player on a rookie deal.
Waiting a year to see what we have in Jones bears little risk for a much better reward.
“Has Jones EVER played with good NFL caliber players, either at Duke or with NY?” If they upgrade the offense next year, and he still sucks, THEN you have your answer, not before.
“Has Jones EVER played with good NFL caliber players, either at Duke or with NY?” If they upgrade the offense next year, and he still sucks, THEN you have your answer, not before.
RE: Which is actually pretty outrageous when you think about it.
Go Terps says that why not trade 3-4 first round picks because our first round picks are shitty. And then double down on it by saying something like the Texans wouldn’t accept it if we offered Barkley, Jones, Lawrence, and Thomas for Watson, implying that all our first round picks are shit. Talk about hopes and dreams vs reality.
Personally, I think if the Giants offered the above deal, the Texans couldn’t accept fast enough.
I'm sure you would think that. I have no doubts.
You think they would turn that down? Just to be on record?
A lot of the value lies in their cheaper deals and a lot of it is gone already. As a Giants fan I’d rather give those 4 up than give up 3 fresh new 1sts + whatever else would be included.
Houston is rebuilding, they want fresh picks and maybe 1 player for Watson. They likely aren’t interested in a package of players averaging 2/5 through their rookie deals.
I'd trade those four players for Watson in a second.
The Texans would be morons for moving a guy who doesn't want to be there for 4 starters??
OK. Was the Fonz your hero when he jumped the shark?
Not just four starters, but four starters to build with at significant positions. Left tackle, D tackle, Qb and Rb. That’s a team starter pack, and they already have other pieces like JJ Watt.
The Texans would be morons for moving a guy who doesn't want to be there for 4 starters??
OK. Was the Fonz your hero when he jumped the shark?
Not just four starters, but four starters to build with at significant positions. Left tackle, D tackle, Qb and Rb. That’s a shitty team starter pack, and they already have other pieces like JJ Watt.
Dexter Lawrence OR Andrew Thomas (not both), plus a first, one or two mid round picks likely get that deal done. The fact that you’d turn down both of those players plus Saquon Barkley and a QB prospect shows how disconnected you’ve become.
Dexter Lawrence OR Andrew Thomas (not both), plus a first, one or two mid round picks likely get that deal done. The fact that you’d turn down both of those players plus Saquon Barkley and a QB prospect shows how disconnected you’ve become.
Britt - of all the posters on this board you're the last that should be calling anyone disconnected.
Take off the glasses and ask yourself what Jones and Barkley are really worth. You think they're great, fine. There's no proof for that, but fine. But between Barkley's injury and the position he plays, and Jones's general shittiness in his two years in the NFL...to trade for them would be to trade for a couple potential enormous problems.
There's a reason this team is 11-21 the last two years. Think about that long and hard before you call anyone else disconnected.
There’s a portion of BBI who believes in the plan which is centered around Jones, Barkley & Thomas as the offensive building blocks. Those were the last three premium picks. Hasn’t panned out yet, but it’s reasonable to give it more time.
The other portion thinks drafting a RB at #2 was malpractice & Jones was over drafted. The Giants are 15-33 since 2018, can’t argue that.
Where do I fall? I’m fine sticking with the plan for 2021, but gotta see results this year. This needs to be a 2005 type season where there is a significant jump in wins.
Dexter Lawrence OR Andrew Thomas (not both), plus a first, one or two mid round picks likely get that deal done. The fact that you’d turn down both of those players plus Saquon Barkley and a QB prospect shows how disconnected you’ve become.
Britt - of all the posters on this board you're the last that should be calling anyone disconnected.
Take off the glasses and ask yourself what Jones and Barkley are really worth. You think they're great, fine. There's no proof for that, but fine. But between Barkley's injury and the position he plays, and Jones's general shittiness in his two years in the NFL...to trade for them would be to trade for a couple potential enormous problems.
There's a reason this team is 11-21 the last two years. Think about that long and hard before you call anyone else disconnected.
The difference is that you see a dish of clay and say what it is and others see that clay and think what it could be. It’s just a philosophical, but now probably ideological, difference.
get over the anger of having shit foisted on the masses because of a few.
Every time I see the disclaimer: "Past performance is no guarantee of future results", I know exactly why that that has to be communicated to the public!
builds in a time to make the cost-benefit analysis. There is little penalty for waiting on young players to develop:
Quote:
So as a fan, I have adapted over the years to look at everything through a cost-benefit analysis. And the sooner you can determine a player's value, the better. Even if you have to take less evidence to project forward faster because the player isn't producing early.
Patience, I believe, is really no longer a virtue in the NFL. It's just more time to likely make a worse decision. Unfortunately that's just the nature of trying to manage the cap well. Sure, you might make a mistake by jettisoning a player too early, but that's where you need the most contemporary methods to help manage that risk...
There's little benefit to moving on from a player on a rookie contract. While there is a point to be made about an opportunity cost if you wait for a player to excel that doesn't, there's an equally strong argument to make that a player who blossoms late still has a greater value than a replacement. At QB - that's often a risk worth taking, especially if a team goes the route of a mediocre veteran.
Look at the Panthers. Cam leaves. They drafted Will Grier, but he didn't look like a guy who could step in - so they got a vet - Bridgewater. And they gave him a 3 year, $66M contract. If you want to talk about a cost benefit there, you'll be hard pressed to find it. They'd have been just as well off throwing a draftee, or a cheap replacement vet in there. That's where the cost benefit aspect hits. Seldom does it for a player on a rookie deal.
Waiting a year to see what we have in Jones bears little risk for a much better reward.
Absolutely there is risk in waiting another year with Jones because finding quality quarterbacks isn't easy like finding a running back. It's probably the hardest thing to do in professional team sports. So when you miss on the solution, it's a major setback. And since Jones just hasn't done enough to give anyone confidence he's the solution, that compounds the risk.
I know it's not going to happen, but this is another very interesting QB class where we will likely be in a draft position to consider one. And a strong case can be made at least five are more talented than Jones.
Dexter Lawrence OR Andrew Thomas (not both), plus a first, one or two mid round picks likely get that deal done. The fact that you’d turn down both of those players plus Saquon Barkley and a QB prospect shows how disconnected you’ve become.
Britt - of all the posters on this board you're the last that should be calling anyone disconnected.
Take off the glasses and ask yourself what Jones and Barkley are really worth. You think they're great, fine. There's no proof for that, but fine. But between Barkley's injury and the position he plays, and Jones's general shittiness in his two years in the NFL...to trade for them would be to trade for a couple potential enormous problems.
There's a reason this team is 11-21 the last two years. Think about that long and hard before you call anyone else disconnected.
The difference is that you see a dish of clay and say what it is and others see that clay and think what it could be. It’s just a philosophical, but now probably ideological, difference.
There’s a portion of BBI who believes in the plan which is centered around Jones, Barkley & Thomas as the offensive building blocks. Those were the last three premium picks. Hasn’t panned out yet, but it’s reasonable to give it more time.
The other portion thinks drafting a RB at #2 was malpractice & Jones was over drafted. The Giants are 15-33 since 2018, can’t argue that.
Where do I fall? I’m fine sticking with the plan for 2021, but gotta see results this year. This needs to be a 2005 type season where there is a significant jump in wins.
Plus one. This fall is huge for not only Jones, but the direction of this franchise. If we get legit skill players & Jones plays well, we should compete for playoffs.
how many fucking people saw the Texans trade Hopkins for David Johnson??
There are people in denial about how things are viewed - that much is really apparent.
I don't know how the Texans would value those four players. Personally, I'd give up those four players for Watson easily. I would not give up three future firsts for Watson, though. A huge reason for the Giants poor record, IMO, is the mediocre ROI from first round picks (and yes, the book isn't closed yet on those four).
I think (and I think this was consensus) the Hopkins trade was incredibly dumb.
A lot of the value lies in their cheaper deals and a lot of it is gone already. As a Giants fan I’d rather give those 4 up than give up 3 fresh new 1sts + whatever else would be included.
Houston is rebuilding, they want fresh picks and maybe 1 player for Watson. They likely aren’t interested in a package of players averaging 2/5 through their rookie deals.
A lot of the value lies in their cheaper deals and a lot of it is gone already. As a Giants fan I’d rather give those 4 up than give up 3 fresh new 1sts + whatever else would be included.
Houston is rebuilding, they want fresh picks and maybe 1 player for Watson. They likely aren’t interested in a package of players averaging 2/5 through their rookie deals.
I believe Mara is such a fool that he can’t be trusted to make an inspired GM selection. So Abrams is a decent pathway.
Abrams would serve as a non football supervisory sort of GM in charge of Judge and the three Directors (Koncz, Sternfeld and Petit). In that scenario, if Judge continues to emerge as a very good NFL HC, his influence and power would far outweigh the other four guys in the room, so he would really be running the franchise and getting their help to fulfill all his duties.
Now I don’t know whether that is the best structure, but at least an intelligent knowledgeable football guy would be directing the franchise.
And one corollary is that we absolutely cannot have Daniel Jones destroying Judge’s career, if we see this Abrams as overseer scenario playing out. That’s one significant risk to persist with this gradually failing Jones experiment.
"Absolutely there is risk in waiting another year with Jones because finding quality quarterbacks isn't easy like finding a running back."
Especially coming from a guy who says, in retrospect of course, that the Giants should have waited for Herbert.
Because we know you'd be first in line, blasting the Giants Way, if we rode out Eli another year and then took a QB who delivered a 6-10 record.
And the core message? We wasted a year in finding a QB.
Consistency isn't a strong suit, yet you continue to act as if you have any.
As usual, you substitute me for someone else. I never said we should have just waited for Herbert. But I have said we should have taken Allen instead of Barkley.
I do harp on Herbert because his performance is the what a high QB selection should look like. And I absolutely wish we had him instead...
I believe Mara is such a fool that he can’t be trusted to make an inspired GM selection. So Abrams is a decent pathway.
Abrams would serve as a non football supervisory sort of GM in charge of Judge and the three Directors (Koncz, Sternfeld and Petit). In that scenario, if Judge continues to emerge as a very good NFL HC, his influence and power would far outweigh the other four guys in the room, so he would really be running the franchise and getting their help to fulfill all his duties.
Now I don’t know whether that is the best structure, but at least an intelligent knowledgeable football guy would be directing the franchise.
And one corollary is that we absolutely cannot have Daniel Jones destroying Judge’s career, if we see this Abrams as overseer scenario playing out. That’s one significant risk to persist with this gradually failing Jones experiment.
After a wasted season
bw in dc : 1/28/2020 1:46 pm : link
Drafting Herbert makes the most sense in theory.
But there is too much on the line with Jones and Gettleman's legacy. And I believe Mara is committed to seeing that play out.
They would never show the creativity and progressive thinking to move on from Jones for a potentially better franchise QB solution after one year. Just not their nature...
Dexter Lawrence OR Andrew Thomas (not both), plus a first, one or two mid round picks likely get that deal done. The fact that you’d turn down both of those players plus Saquon Barkley and a QB prospect shows how disconnected you’ve become.
The Texans are laughing at that deal, come on now.
I do feel Judge likes Jones in that he’s a hard worker, good kid & coachable. He also comes from NE who reportedly liked Jones and scouted him hard.
With that said, I also have to imagine he was frustrated with Jones last year with the turnovers. Judge at 39 years old pounding the drum for a new QB after playing 14 games in his sophomore season after being drafted #6 is not realistic. I think this is a huge year for Jones & Judge will be able to provide more feedback on what he thinks after another season.
Stronger backup needs to be brought in, if the turnovers continue and production isn’t there, having an alternative is a must.
Jones is 8-18 as Giants starter, and the best win the Giants have had in the last 2 years came with McCoy starting.
It’s time to win & quickly with Jones leading the charge.
There is the real risk he is. You can’t deny it, can you? I thought the pro Jones position was to be patient and see if DJ improved a lot in 2021. So there’s the possibility he won’t, which puts Judge in a bind and which represents a political challenge for him in moving the franchise away from Jones. I actually think that that’s the likely scenario. It’s a real risk.
After a wasted season
bw in dc : 1/28/2020 1:46 pm : link
Drafting Herbert makes the most sense in theory.
But there is too much on the line with Jones and Gettleman's legacy. And I believe Mara is committed to seeing that play out.
They would never show the creativity and progressive thinking to move on from Jones for a potentially better franchise QB solution after one year. Just not their nature...
Moving on from Jones after one year is taking the position that the Giants should cut bait like the Cards did with Rose. That's different than what you wrote what - "...the Giants should have waited for Herbert."
Again, I would have avoided all of this by drafting a QB over Barkley in 2018.
If you google around for QB rankings from the various sites with all their different grades and methods of grading Jones is always between 20-25. Take it for what it's worth. Probably not much.
Most of the people who post here have seen him play all his games and are emotionally invested with his success or failure. Objectively he stinks so far. By any measure of any metric he's not been a top half of the league QB so far. Joe Judge seems to be all in with him so hopefully he becomes one quickly.
Quote:
Objectively he stinks so far
Correction: You mean subjectively. You’re quite welcome
This coming from the guy who said “some people are saying that Leonard Williams is better than Aaron Donald.” Something about glass houses and stones
This all does track back to the Barkley pick, which was catastrophic.
Right.
And the genesis of that decision began five months prior in early December 2017 when McAdoo sat Eli and played Geno Smith against the Raiders.
Which led to the outrage over that move and a tidal wave of sympathy for Eli...
Yes, the Barkley pick was a sinkhole decision. Never suggested forcing a QB there if evaluations didn't support it, but if they didn't then the Giants needed to get the hell out of that #2 spot and trade it to the highest bidder.
of why people disliked the Barkley pick. The ins, the outs, positional value, team building, etc... it’s bean beaten to death, resurrected, and then killed again. When do you start looking forward with what we have? Or are we going to have to hear this on every thread until both Gettleman and every player you dislike is purged?
This all does track back to the Barkley pick, which was catastrophic.
And 3 years later, a significant group of you guys still can't let 2018 go.
What's the endgame? We all know that you disliked the Barkley pick. Why the fuck does it have to be said on every thread?
It also seems like melodramatic hyperbole. Picks, even high picks bust all the time. Teams move on. One player, especially one who is at the top of his position (whether or not you feel that position needs to be on the field) does not cause a multi-year spiral.
I’m sure most of the people preaching patience with Jones are already taking a victory lap on Darnold.
I'm not making any judgement on Darnold, but he did just finish his THIRD season, right?
All many of us are saying is that DJ shouldn't be definitively judged after his SECOND season, especially considering the unprecedented SHIT he had to deal with. I've listed this a few times, but maybe if I do it in list form instead of a sentence, it will make a diff.
New coaching staff
No OTAs
Limited largely virtual training camp
No preseason games
Rookie starting LT (how many tackles through the years immediately started at LT? Not many)
Starting C who never played C!
Mediocre WRs (to be kind) and No #1 WR
#1 target who led the league (by far!) in dropped passes resulting in INTs (6!).
#1 target who was among league leaders in drop rate (7% compared to legit #1 targets like Davante Adams who have 0-1%)
And he was an Engram catch from finishing the season 6-3 and winning the div.
you think the Barkley pick was catastrophic. You don't want to consider any alternative outcome, such as Barkley returning to 95-100% of the player he was, on a much better team, and what that will look like. But then again, you are someone who thinks he is an "ineffectual player."
It's a shame that you view football performance in 1 or 2 year periods - especially with draft picks. That's not the way things usually go.
It's important to get the coach and QB right, because if you do, then you build via draft and good free agency signings year in and year out to support those two things. That is what the Giants are doing now.
instead of 7-9 or 8-8 if Barkley had been healthy all season, you think the team is so awful.
When in reality, the difference between 6-10 and 9-7 is really not that much. It's better coaching and better players, which we should have more of in 2021.
RE: RE: And this is the divide, ladies and gentlemen....
Yes - there are posters here in denial about what the Giants are.
No one is in denial that the Giants have generally sucked for 9 years. What some believe is that the current coaching staff and roster (and even GM to large extent bc he tore down a shitty roster) has nothing to do with the sucking from '12-19.
And despite unprecedented circumstances, the Giants finished the '20 season 5-3 and appear to be a team with the arrow pointing up (finally).
There’s a portion of BBI who believes in the plan which is centered around Jones, Barkley & Thomas as the offensive building blocks. Those were the last three premium picks. Hasn’t panned out yet, but it’s reasonable to give it more time.
The other portion thinks drafting a RB at #2 was malpractice & Jones was over drafted. The Giants are 15-33 since 2018, can’t argue that.
Where do I fall? I’m fine sticking with the plan for 2021, but gotta see results this year. This needs to be a 2005 type season where there is a significant jump in wins.
The Giants have 5 losses by less than 10 points.. TOTAL. Think about how young this team is and think about that fact just pointed out. For those of you thinking this team is not building and is on the upswing, you are extremely blinded by actual wins and losses. The wins are coming, you don't lose so many close games if you aren't building. Now imagine a serviceable WR or 2, a TE who can actually, you know, catch, and a pass rusher. We win 4/5 of those tight games.
RE: They Greatly Penalize Fumbles and Interceptions
So the reduction in turnovers probably helped him a lot.
Also, if PFF looks at separation, his lower completions might not hurt as much if the receivers weren't open.
They seem to be saying Jones was better in his first year except for turnovers. An optimistic view would be that
- he has in fact significantly improved re turnovers
- last year's dip in performance was a sophomore slump due to several factors - WRs who couldn't get separation, his own injuries etc.
Thus rose colored glasses may suggest if he stays healthy and gets help at WR and OL he may be able to regain an upward trend.
PFF Rates Jones as Most Improved Giant
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/9/2021 11:30 am
Finally!! I'll get people on board to realize PFF is full of shit!! It only takes having positive things said about one of BBI'ers whipping boys!
OR THE OTHER POSSIBILITY, IF PFF'S declaration actually has some validity:
most of BBI doesn't know from horse pucky how to evaluate football play.
The Giants have 5 losses by less than 10 points.. TOTAL. Think about how young this team is and think about that fact just pointed out. For those of you thinking this team is not building and is on the upswing, you are extremely blinded by actual wins and losses. The wins are coming, you don't lose so many close games if you aren't building. Now imagine a serviceable WR or 2, a TE who can actually, you know, catch, and a pass rusher. We win 4/5 of those tight games.
Atlanta, I believe, had 6 losses this year by a total of 16 points. So having close losses is not uncommon in the NFL and it really isn't indicative of any future success because each team basically overhauls their roster 25-30% every season.
Until we have a QB solution, I wouldn't predict anything like "the wins are coming"...
Ironically, the 2006 version of Go Terps could have said the same thing about eli.
But did he say the same thing about Eli in 2006? Or are you simply ridiculing Terps based upon a position you only imagine he had?
Do you really have to look up the meaning of the word "could"??
Not anymore than you need to look up what italicization is used for.
You stated a hypothetical and imagined scenario, and then incorporated that into your ongoing crusade against the guy. "He is just the sort of guy who'd ______. Oooooh, I hate that guy!"
RE: Which is actually pretty outrageous when you think about it.
And then double down on it by saying something like the Texans wouldn’t accept it if we offered Barkley, Jones, Lawrence, and Thomas for Watson, implying that all our first round picks are shit. Talk about hopes and dreams vs reality.
Personally, I think if the Giants offered the above deal, the Texans couldn’t accept fast enough.
You may win this argument on the technicality that the Texans are a terribly run team who are not beyond making a terribly stupid decision. Hell, they just made one last year with Hopkins.
The difference is that you see a dish of clay and say what it is and others see that clay and think what it could be. It’s just a philosophical, but now probably ideological, difference.
Not a bad analogy, but it's leaving out a crucial component -- which potters are about to mold the clay.
Moving on from Jones after one year is taking the position that the Giants should cut bait like the Cards did with Rose. That's different than what you wrote what - "...the Giants should have waited for Herbert."
Eh, it doesn't matter. We all know guys like Fatman -- the sort who fabricates or believes a falsehood or mistake, reacts emotionally to it or incorporates it into his judgement, and then can't retract the emotional response once corrected. You're not going to get some sort of attempt at understanding here.
Moving on from Jones after one year is taking the position that the Giants should cut bait like the Cards did with Rose. That's different than what you wrote what - "...the Giants should have waited for Herbert."
Eh, it doesn't matter. We all know guys like Fatman -- the sort who fabricates or believes a falsehood or mistake, reacts emotionally to it or incorporates it into his judgement, and then can't retract the emotional response once corrected. You're not going to get some sort of attempt at understanding here.
LOL. The irony is rich there.
You are responding to a poster who literally creates fabrications and runs with them all the time. It is the basis for nearly everything he posts about "Jints Central" and the "Giants Way".
Hell, a couple of weeks ago he tried to step into a discussion on the Panthers hiring a GM saying that Rhule got his guy and picked him - with no proof. Since then, there have been several articles detailing exactly how Tepper is building the club and the method he is using by working collaboratively across several functions.
bw's entire basis for griping is based on suppositions he's made up.
instead of 7-9 or 8-8 if Barkley had been healthy all season, you think the team is so awful.
When in reality, the difference between 6-10 and 9-7 is really not that much. It's better coaching and better players, which we should have more of in 2021.
There is continent between 6-10 and 9-7 for me.
Ryan, we are 18-46 over the last 4 years.
That is awful, it just is.
You are asking people look at health. Were the teams we were playing healthy? Did they have their starting QBs? If you are going to wipe away reality and ask us to speculate if we were healthy shouldn't we speculate the same for our opponents? If you are looking at the close games and you ask to speculate that they could have been wins can you not look at our close wins and speculate they could have been losses?
We must evaluate on what actually happened not what could have happened. When possible, always use more data than less. It is extremely reasonable for people to be tired of excuses after 18-46. You people are acting like we are good and complaining for no reason.
18-46 C'mon.
The Giants are going to have to PROVE IT ON THE FIELD before people are going to give them ANY credit.
1. The second McAdoo year where the entire team fell apart, nearly everyone on that team is no longer on this team
2. The 2 years of Pat Shurmur
3. The Joe Judge Giants, who looked about a thousand times better than the first two. Yeah - we went 6-10. You can continue to cry about it. But if we don't lose our best player and our tight end could catch, we probably go 8-8, 7-9 at worst.
So....yeah. That's likely what WOULD have happened. Is it a guarantee? No. But this Giants team this year went toe to toe with the Rams, the Super Bowl champs, beat Seattle in Seattle, swept the Redskins who won the division, went 4-2 in the division and got the fucking Eagles and Cowboys monkey off our back. Probably should have swept the division if we are being honest with ourselves. We gave away both road games against Dallas and Philly.
So - sorry if I'm not sitting here on a daily basis moping like a baby about the Giants. I'm damn excited for this team next year. It's about time we rally around these guys and see what they can fucking do with a full plate.
Giants picked Barkley because they viewed him as the best player in the draft. They punted on the QB because they didn't have a consensus and didn't have conviction on any of the guys, and they thought Barkley was a can't miss talent. That's how drafting goes. So be it.
about Andrew Thomas too. Every announcer on earth was blowing Chase Young on a weekly basis and Thomas stonewalled him about a combined 40 times in both games.
RE: They went 2-8 outside of their own horrendous division
Giants picked Barkley because they viewed him as the best player in the draft. They punted on the QB because they didn't have a consensus and didn't have conviction on any of the guys, and they thought Barkley was a can't miss talent. That's how drafting goes. So be it.
1. The second McAdoo year where the entire team fell apart, nearly everyone on that team is no longer on this team
2. The 2 years of Pat Shurmur
3. The Joe Judge Giants, who looked about a thousand times better than the first two. Yeah - we went 6-10. You can continue to cry about it. But if we don't lose our best player and our tight end could catch, we probably go 8-8, 7-9 at worst.
So....yeah. That's likely what WOULD have happened. Is it a guarantee? No. But this Giants team this year went toe to toe with the Rams, the Super Bowl champs, beat Seattle in Seattle, swept the Redskins who won the division, went 4-2 in the division and got the fucking Eagles and Cowboys monkey off our back. Probably should have swept the division if we are being honest with ourselves. We gave away both road games against Dallas and Philly.
So - sorry if I'm not sitting here on a daily basis moping like a baby about the Giants. I'm damn excited for this team next year. It's about time we rally around these guys and see what they can fucking do with a full plate.
Do you think we can be 10-6 next season? Or do you think we'll see an 8-8 season?
There are just a few people that will never be optimistic.
Based on what I saw of Judge last year, I am. Not sure why everyone can't see the difference between the Shurmur years to last year.
Also can't understand why it's all or nothing. Football is a game of inches so slight improvement in multiple areas puts us over the hump in many close games. I'm imagining this team with a true #1 WR, another OL, and an ER. How many close games does that win us? I guess I just have confidence in Judge right now. Let's keep adding pieces. On Jones, I felt like he was starting to hit his stride in the Cincy game. That hamstring injury was BRUTAL timing.
I'm with ya. Jones improved in his final 6 games, and the injury sucked big time.
I even said hey let's wait until week 8 and see how the team is doing, and it was night and day from early on in the season. It's a young team. Playoffs next year or bust
Let's assume that PFF is right. Isn't that a little scary? What does it say about the overall player development on the team? I am just frustrated by all of the poor results. I know I am beating a dead horse. I want better from the team. I feel like we are slow as a franchise adapting to today's NFL.
I am encouraged by Judge but most of that is a result of the things he has said. He is telling me what I want to hear. Makes me nervous. I have had a successful life, largely, by ignoring what people say and focusing instead on what they do and holding them accountable to results.
This all does track back to the Barkley pick, which was catastrophic.
oh cmon already. what if they took rosen or darnold? Shit, what if they took Allen and he didn't develop here like he had in Buffalo.
You guys simplify shit to build a story but it's never that easy.
The Giants took the safe pick and by safe I mean they took the most likeliest of players to reach super star potential. That guy was Barkley. Fuck man, enough already.
Well run teams have drafted RBs high before. Stop making shit up.
I haven't made anything up. I said before that draft that Barkley would be a terrible pick, and that has come to pass. There were a number of better options available, including a guy that has since been named league MVP. The concerns about RBs and injuries was raised before the pick, and injuries have been a major problem.
instead of 7-9 or 8-8 if Barkley had been healthy all season, you think the team is so awful.
When in reality, the difference between 6-10 and 9-7 is really not that much. It's better coaching and better players, which we should have more of in 2021.
We go 8-8 by accident this year if Barkley is playing 14 games or so.
8-8 when everyone had this team pegged for 4 wins. 8-8 means division champs. 8-8 means the arrow is CLEARLY pointing up.
Never mind the facts. Never mind the sad brutal truth that the Barkley pick should have helped facilitate this rebuild/turnaround, but the sad truth is the guy got fucking hurt. That's a shame. And it's maddening that some here refuse to see what happened right the hell in front of them.
One pick doesn't spiral shit. Stop with this garbage. The Bucs missed on plenty of picks too lately--they still won the title this year. Hows that OJ Howard pick looking now?
Barkley was as good a player as a team could draft. You can spin up the financial "pitfalls" all you want. It doesn't make it fact. It's anecdotal at best. At best..and even calling it anecdotal is being way too kind. For every list of cheap RBs playing on good teams I can find a similar list of cheap pass rushers.
Cheap great players! that's what you want. Doesn't matter what position they play. Want to build a great team? Find as many cheap good players as you can--RBs included.
1. The second McAdoo year where the entire team fell apart, nearly everyone on that team is no longer on this team
2. The 2 years of Pat Shurmur
3. The Joe Judge Giants, who looked about a thousand times better than the first two. Yeah - we went 6-10. You can continue to cry about it. But if we don't lose our best player and our tight end could catch, we probably go 8-8, 7-9 at worst.
So....yeah. That's likely what WOULD have happened. Is it a guarantee? No. But this Giants team this year went toe to toe with the Rams, the Super Bowl champs, beat Seattle in Seattle, swept the Redskins who won the division, went 4-2 in the division and got the fucking Eagles and Cowboys monkey off our back. Probably should have swept the division if we are being honest with ourselves. We gave away both road games against Dallas and Philly.
So - sorry if I'm not sitting here on a daily basis moping like a baby about the Giants. I'm damn excited for this team next year. It's about time we rally around these guys and see what they can fucking do with a full plate.
Do you think we can be 10-6 next season? Or do you think we'll see an 8-8 season?
I think we can be 10-6 next season. Who is going to laugh me off that take? The 97 Giants went 10-5-1. The 84 Giants with an equally unproven QB and laughable group of WRs and even RBs went 9-7. We didn't know the QB was balls out yet. We didn't know the team was ready...yet. Until they were.
I picked the 2020 team to go 7-9 and said they could go 9-7. They should have gone 8-8 in my view but lost their best player for the year. Shit happens.
Yes. They can definitely go 10-6 in 2021. We see teams go from bad to good all the time and the Giants won't suffer atrophy like so many teams in their prime or sliding out of their prime do in this age of the NFL. The Giants are on the way up based on their age and coaching staff. Doesn't mean it's a lock of course, but I think it's more likely they win more games than less in 21.
I haven't made anything up. I said before that draft that Barkley would be a terrible pick, and that has come to pass. There were a number of better options available, including a guy that has since been named league MVP. The concerns about RBs and injuries was raised before the pick, and injuries have been a major problem.
None of this is made up, none of it is hindsight.
Good for you bro. And if Bark doesn't wreck his knee we have a division title and playoff game under our belts.
the logic behind the pick was sound no matter your spin.
Circumstances matter. Shit goes south for a number of reasons.
And LOL thinking about the mere notion that lamar Jackson would be a league MVP here in NYG land. I like the kid, I even supported the idea of picking him, I just don't broadcast that every day here, and he aint winning shit here and you know it. Fucking guy might be dead behind this offense, save for 2020 when the OL was better.
Barkley was a sound decision that didn't work out yet. This wasn't the Saints picking Rodgers over LT. Barkley was the best player. He got hurt.
the logic behind the pick was sound no matter your spin.
Circumstances matter. Shit goes south for a number of reasons.
And LOL thinking about the mere notion that lamar Jackson would be a league MVP here in NYG land. I like the kid, I even supported the idea of picking him, I just don't broadcast that every day here, and he aint winning shit here and you know it. Fucking guy might be dead behind this offense, save for 2020 when the OL was better.
Barkley was a sound decision that didn't work out yet. This wasn't the Saints picking Rodgers over LT. Barkley was the best player. He got hurt.
Bills would laugh at an offer of Barkley for Allen.
I haven't made anything up. I said before that draft that Barkley would be a terrible pick, and that has come to pass. There were a number of better options available, including a guy that has since been named league MVP. The concerns about RBs and injuries was raised before the pick, and injuries have been a major problem.
None of this is made up, none of it is hindsight.
Good for you bro. And if Bark doesn't wreck his knee we have a division title and playoff game under our belts.
You got lucky.
Given the quality of the football we've had to deal with I feel decidedly unlucky.
of being wrong with their prediction for the following season. We're going on 9 years of wrong predictions at this point. Maybe, just maybe, we should just wait and see what happens. Because this is getting embarrassing at this point.
the logic behind the pick was sound no matter your spin.
Circumstances matter. Shit goes south for a number of reasons.
And LOL thinking about the mere notion that lamar Jackson would be a league MVP here in NYG land. I like the kid, I even supported the idea of picking him, I just don't broadcast that every day here, and he aint winning shit here and you know it. Fucking guy might be dead behind this offense, save for 2020 when the OL was better.
Barkley was a sound decision that didn't work out yet. This wasn't the Saints picking Rodgers over LT. Barkley was the best player. He got hurt.
The only "logic" to the pick would have been if we were a perennial contender who just happened to have the 2nd pock in the draft due to some smart wheeling and dealing...
As many have stated, he was the epitome of a luxury pick.
Barkley was the safest pick because RBs can usually contribute from day one. And he was probably the most exciting pick.
But I never bought the so called conventional wisdom that Barkley was the best player in that draft. If anyone cared to watch an Alabama game they would have seen the incredible versatility and ability of Minkah Fitzpatrick, who is now a 2X first team All-Pro. Same with QNelson at Notre Dame, who is now a 3X first team All-Pro.
of being wrong with their prediction for the following season. We're going on 9 years of wrong predictions at this point. Maybe, just maybe, we should just wait and see what happens. Because this is getting embarrassing at this point.
Lol - wait and see what happens? That’s what we are all fucking saying dude.
But when we say it - the usual morons come out in droves and go “just wait until year 12 of the rebuild!”
It’s so so so tiresome at this point - from you too.
again - Barkley proved immediately to be a really good pick. He was the rookie of the year and you could argue he was the single best offensive skill player in the whole fucking league that year.
He injured his ankle last year and we had a first year QB. The team was basically in the “first year” of the rebuild, we were terrible.
And then he tore his knee this year. And wouldn’t you know it, the team improved a lot on defense, the OL was better, we were a lot better because of coaching and better players, and if he doesn’t get hurt, we win the division by probably a game or two.
You were the same guys who said we were “nothing more than a 3 win team” and then we almost won the division with a JV receiver squad and Alfred Morris. And then when we didn’t - you guys came back and started bitching again.
when we are better next year, you guys will be really happy Barkley is on the team, and you will conveniently forget that these conversations ever happened. Just like the Beckham trade, and just like the LW trade
again - Barkley proved immediately to be a really good pick. He was the rookie of the year and you could argue he was the single best offensive skill player in the whole fucking league that year.
He injured his ankle last year and we had a first year QB. The team was basically in the “first year” of the rebuild, we were terrible.
And then he tore his knee this year. And wouldn’t you know it, the team improved a lot on defense, the OL was better, we were a lot better because of coaching and better players, and if he doesn’t get hurt, we win the division by probably a game or two.
You were the same guys who said we were “nothing more than a 3 win team” and then we almost won the division with a JV receiver squad and Alfred Morris. And then when we didn’t - you guys came back and started bitching again.
One could easily argue we almost won a JV division...true?
And there is no argument that Pat Mahomes was the best offensive player in 2018.
And oh - we had a shitty division? Who gives a fuck. Tell that to the Patriots who played in the dog shit AFC East for a million years before the Bills became good.
the logic behind the pick was sound no matter your spin.
Circumstances matter. Shit goes south for a number of reasons.
And LOL thinking about the mere notion that lamar Jackson would be a league MVP here in NYG land. I like the kid, I even supported the idea of picking him, I just don't broadcast that every day here, and he aint winning shit here and you know it. Fucking guy might be dead behind this offense, save for 2020 when the OL was better.
Barkley was a sound decision that didn't work out yet. This wasn't the Saints picking Rodgers over LT. Barkley was the best player. He got hurt.
Bills would laugh at an offer of Barkley for Allen.
why settle for Allen? I think we should target Mahomes, but only if they throw in Tyreek Hill.
And everyone will shut up about this offense. It’s getting old. Same people blame the kid but not Watson or Mahomes in Super Bowl. Gordon Ramsey can’t cook a meal with dog shit. Every player EVERY player on offense (cause Barkley). Is in the lower third in the league at his position so blame the kid. Some of you need to understand the game.
RE: If Saquon didn't die, we win the division!... if Dak also still dies
in this alternate universe where Saquon is healthy for a full 16.
That drives me nuts. Leading up to that draft it was said a million times: running backs get hurt all the time. Then when it happens, some people act like it was this terrible misfortune for the organization; a bolt from the blue that couldn't have been expected or accounted for.
Then of course there's the absurd notion that Barkley's presence alone is worth 2 wins or more, when the team went 5-11 and 4-12 with him on it.
Is your fucking Google broken?
Link for the asswipes - ( New Window )
There are things that give me pause for how he ultimately turns out, but there is PLENTY of reason for optimism. The fact that there are so many here that have written him off is pathetic. Especially given the circumstances and lack of talent around him.
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or is that asking too much?
Is your fucking Google broken? Link for the asswipes - ( New Window )
why do I have to google your argument for you? You're a nasty piece of work. Quick to argument, quick to insult.
There are things that give me pause for how he ultimately turns out, but there is PLENTY of reason for optimism. The fact that there are so many here that have written him off is pathetic. Especially given the circumstances and lack of talent around him.
There is little reason for optimism that he will be good enough to win championships.
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In comment 15148617 Producer said:
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or is that asking too much?
Is your fucking Google broken? Link for the asswipes - ( New Window )
why do I have to google your argument for you? You're a nasty piece of work. Quick to argument, quick to insult.
Why do I owe you a fucking link?? I'm passing along the information - not for an in-depth discussion - just to point out what PFF is saying.
If you need proof of the statement - Google it.
+1
Sky high standards around here.
Jones DID show progress. Some of you can't get your heads out of the overall stat page. Stats can be misleading. To be fair, not always, and Jones's stats aren't that good in 2020, but the first 8-10 games or so the stats were downright morbid. They did improve.
I'm done trying to persuade others that is he or isn't the answer since it looks like a slam dunk that he will be here next year.
Clearly, the best path forward for the Giants is that he's has "the goods".
That doesn't mean he's going to improve to a point where he's worth maintaining as the starter, though. He's still a long way from that.
I don't blanket disparage PFF. I thought it was reasonable.
I'm done trying to persuade others that is he or isn't the answer since it looks like a slam dunk that he will be here next year.
Clearly, the best path forward for the Giants is that he's has "the goods".
Nobody is "convincing" anyone that Jones is good or bad, or he will eventually be good or bad. It is a fools errand.
You can pick out the fools because they keep starting Jones threads because they believe everyone should view everything the way they do and can't process any contrary information to their deeply held belief.
I'm done trying to persuade others that is he or isn't the answer since it looks like a slam dunk that he will be here next year.
yeah the team is NOT going to replace DJ at this point. No chance in that happening before 2022. So, to discuss a replacement at this point (whether you like him or not) is absolutely a waste of time... because it is not happening.
It would be more productive to discuss how we can win with what we have. Right now, we are still a 6 win team because we have not added any pieces yet. With this offense, we are likely only an 8 or 9 win team at best with a different QB.
That doesn't mean he's going to improve to a point where he's worth maintaining as the starter, though. He's still a long way from that.
At this point, why wouldn't you just root for that to be the case? I think it's pretty clear that management isn't going in a different direction. Everyone knows how you feel about it...
Is it more important to you that you be right about him not being good?
And BTW - I think it would be best for the Giants to move on from DJ...but at this point - what's the point of continuing to beat that dead horse?
I saw improvement but I don't even think he's in Top 5 improved on the roster.
Feels like PFF didn't do much homework on this one across roster.
Gates exploded onto scene. Thomas improved throughout the year.
Peppers also was significantly better, as was Williams and Lawrence from last year. No mention of Gallman either which was strange given all his metrics went up significantly.
"NEW YORK GIANTS: QB DANIEL JONES
This one may seem like a mistake, given that many of Jones’ passing numbers actually took a step back in his second season, but those passing numbers don’t tell the entire story. Jones’ PFF grade — a number designed to isolate the play of a quarterback from his supporting cast — actually improved from 65.9 as a rookie to 78.4 in 2020.
The biggest reason for that improved grade was that Jones did a better job of keeping the ball out of harm’s way, reducing his number of turnover-worthy plays from 31 in 2019 to 17 this past season on a similar number of dropbacks. He also gave the Giants some added value with his athleticism as a runner. A better offensive environment should lead to better results for Jones next season"
Stats are so team dependant and the situation around DJ was some of the worst. But when you isolate what he did, it was pretty solid. I mean even the fumbles thing on paper was worse than what it was. The poor pass protection combined with the fumbles the QBs get credited for as last ball handler that clearly weren't his fault. He really only should have thrown 5 picks this year to his 11 TDS with zero RBs and no redzone threats.
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It would have been difficult to maintain a level as poor as he showed for the whole 16 games.
That doesn't mean he's going to improve to a point where he's worth maintaining as the starter, though. He's still a long way from that.
At this point, why wouldn't you just root for that to be the case? I think it's pretty clear that management isn't going in a different direction. Everyone knows how you feel about it...
Is it more important to you that you be right about him not being good?
And BTW - I think it would be best for the Giants to move on from DJ...but at this point - what's the point of continuing to beat that dead horse?
Of course I'm rooting for him. But who gives a shit about what we're rooting for?
Daniel Jones isn't the dead horse that needs to be beaten. The dead horse is that the Giants are a poorly run organization that is more committed to its way of doing things than it is turning over every stone to try to win.
THAT is what is interesting to discuss. I don't give a shit what people are rooting for, and I don't expect them to care about what I'm rooting for. I'd rather discuss what is actually going on instead of our wishes.
Myself included.
Life is about learning and improving. If a person has all the ability, I don't understand why we don't allow that they too can grow. If Jones can't make the throws, or make first downs with his feet, or whatever... He doesn't have the physical ability, okay. But he does. How would anybody here feel if they were told at 23 years old that's as good as it gets? Would anybody succeed, ever?
THAT is what is interesting to discuss. I don't give a shit what people are rooting for, and I don't expect them to care about what I'm rooting for. I'd rather discuss what is actually going on instead of our wishes.
We don't know what "actually" is going on. Just like the analytics guys tried to tell us the Giants weren't doing jackshit.
If you want to discuss what's going on - then at least know what the fuck is going on.
Life is about learning and improving. If a person has all the ability, I don't understand why we don't allow that they too can grow. If Jones can't make the throws, or make first downs with his feet, or whatever... He doesn't have the physical ability, okay. But he does. How would anybody here feel if they were told at 23 years old that's as good as it gets? Would anybody succeed, ever?
This drives me nuts. The mental aspect of the game is so huge to progression and why many loved DJ, and a big reason Judge speaks so glowingly about him off the cuff. He sees the preparation on a day to day basis and how deals with set backs. Some guys spiral down and others keep moving forward and use it as teaching points. What I like about DJ is he isn't making the same mistakes over and over. This year was working on ball security and better decision making. He was higher and stronger with the ball and he was much more cognizant with the ball. In the beggining of the season the hesitation caused some ints, but the second half of the Bucs game you could see it all clicking. Very excited to see what he looks like next year.
What's the goal here? Is it to nurture Jones's professional development, or is it to compete with 31 other organizations to win the Super Bowl?
Excellent timing my man.
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or is that asking too much?
Is your fucking Google broken? Link for the asswipes - ( New Window )
Bah - why waste time developing players who only will want to get paid a lot of $$ in their second contracts?
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I say develop. Maybe that's where we disagree. You imply that he needs his hand held. I say he needs his coaches to help him develop.
Bah - why waste time developing players who only will want to get paid a lot of $$ in their second contracts?
Why do we like Joe Judge if he's just going to waste all his time being a "teacher". We don't want a teacher, we want a coach!
What's the goal here? Is it to nurture Jones's professional development, or is it to compete with 31 other organizations to win the Super Bowl?
He's getting a third year because he's shown the potential to be a very good QB in this league. I know you don't agree with that, but Judge certainly does, and it's his opinion is the one that matters.
No! There are dozens of careers on the line. If Jones isn't the best guy to help the Giants win now, they should be seeking a better alternative. Hoping and wishing he develops into something he hasn't shown himself to be is horrendous business.
Britt, I've asked this question many times and I'll ask you specifically here: of Jones were a UDFA do you think he'd be handed the starting job in 2021?
I would like a QB that can create when it all breaks down. I hope he can show that in 2021. I don't want to be satisfied with decent. I want more. I don't feel there is anything wrong with that.
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This is the NFL, not an internship. He's almost certainly getting a third year as the unquestioned starter based not on his performance, but his draft status.
What's the goal here? Is it to nurture Jones's professional development, or is it to compete with 31 other organizations to win the Super Bowl?
He's getting a third year because he's shown the potential to be a very good QB in this league. I know you don't agree with that, but Judge certainly does, and it's his opinion is the one that matters.
Ironically, the 2006 version of Go Terps could have said the same thing about eli. Eli's 3rd season - 2006, regressed from 2005, including the team's record. Basically, if Eli was not a top draftee, he'd have been cut, traded, drawn and quartered. At least in the eyes of one delusional fan.
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No! There are dozens of careers on the line. If Jones isn't the best guy to help the Giants win now, they should be seeking a better alternative. Hoping and wishing he develops into something he hasn't shown himself to be is horrendous business.
Britt, I've asked this question many times and I'll ask you specifically here: of Jones were a UDFA do you think he'd be handed the starting job in 2021?
What kind of question is that, really, and how can I even quantify it? He wasn't an UDFA. He was picked in the first round for a reason. And even if you believe that he would have made it to the 3rd round, he STILL wouldn't be an UDFA.
So how can I even answer that to say if he WAS one, then he would be signed and would compete for the job in camp like everybody else, and they would put the player on the field that gave them the best chance to win.
What's the goal here? Is it to nurture Jones's professional development, or is it to compete with 31 other organizations to win the Super Bowl?
It’s both, mostly because the latter is not going to happen without the former. At least where Jones is the subject at hand.
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Ironically, the 2006 version of Go Terps could have said the same thing about eli. Eli's 3rd season - 2006, regressed from 2005, including the team's record. Basically, if Eli was not a top draftee, he'd have been cut, traded, drawn and quartered. At least in the eyes of one delusional fan.
I remember with Eli people were saying he sucked after his second year. I didn't understand that at all because he showed the ability to get it done with a good cast around him. And that's what you need to win a SB in the NFL. Tom Brady has the name recognition, but on a hiearchy list of QBs by skill in the NFL today he's in the 8-12 range. DJ has certainly shown to be there. I thought he was certainly a top 20 QB in his second year and flirting with top 15 range. Needs to get in the top 12 range this year, but based on the guy we saw in second half of the year I'm confident he gets there.
The offensive line coach is very telling. They want to force teams into man because defensive coordinators aren't going to let you just march up and down the field running the ball and with Saquon back we will certainly do that.
It's easier to throw into man, but you need guys to consistently beat coverage and exactly why the Boys made that trade for Cooper and their offense took off. With DJ, you have the added bonus of him having elite speed with the guys turning their back to line of scrimmage and forcing a spy. We really just need to add 1 number 1 option to the passing game and SB to stay healthy and back to speed and we have potential to be top offense. Combined with the defense I really think we are the 6-10 to 10-6 football team this year.
Sky high standards around here.
great--are you implying that good or even great QBs don't have duds throughout the season?
He improved. deal with it.
That doesn't mean he's going to improve to a point where he's worth maintaining as the starter, though. He's still a long way from that.
If Jones plays like he did against second philly game and second dallas game and cincy game throughout 2021, he will be just fine. We have seen games where Jones looked like a winning QB.
You don't see that but the Giants do. Sorry.
So the reduction in turnovers probably helped him a lot.
Also, if PFF looks at separation, his lower completions might not hurt as much if the receivers weren't open.
I'd like to see QBs that weren't pure athletes that took shit teams to immediate success. Every QB we know thats very good in this league either didn't play early, or went to good teams that traded up for their services. Josh Allen really took off in year 3 and that's pretty much the widely accepted belief in NFL that's where a guy is going to make his mark. Absolutely asinine to quit before that as long as your QB has shown potential to get it done. DJ has certainly shown that, not his fault our passing options suck combined with a poor pass blocking line. Good, veteran QBs aren't throwing more than 20 TDS in this situation and DJ has added bonus of his speed. I'm actually excited for him to actually be able to use it in a functional offense. That's where you want your QB running, on pass plays. Designed runs is only a matter of time before your guy gets hurt unless he's an elite athlete like Lamar.
Hey - why not fire Judge and hire Kliff Kingsbury? The Cardinals won 7 games....hey - why don't we hire Anthony Lynn as head coach? The Chargers won 7 games. Why don't we want to hire Jon Gruden? The Raiders had 8 wins.
Jesus fucking christ dude.
19/31, 219 yards, .8 TDs, .4 INTs, 7.1 YPA
I don't know what's sadder - being encouraged by that or the fact that it actually IS an improvement.
The Ravens game was a mediocre performance, but obviously couldn't use his legs. You rob a guy that needs to rely on his legs all of a sudden they can't play their game and its instantly more difficult. A game like that is good for his long term growth though. The other 6 were average to very good performances.
I feel like you are searching for negatives if you are straight down on him. Lukewarm I get, still needs to put it together as far as the stats goes. But year 3 is where you can expect him to do it on his own a bit. Tough to do that when the obvious coaching point this year was ball security, trying to reduce risk and having your guy put his team on his back are too conflicting goals. Knowing the difference comes with experience. DJ certainly hasn't shown a natural propensity to be checkdown Charlie like Tua, quite the opposite in fact and I get why they wanted to use this year to work on the opposite side of things. I thought it was obvious they were breaking him down and building him up from ground up in certain aspects of his game. This was always a developmental and evaluation year for the whole team, DJ included. It just our division was so bad we ended up being in heat of race.
I'm not advocating trading for Stafford, but he missed almost all of his 2nd season, and threw for 5,000 yards and 41 TD's in his 3rd. I'm not sure he's the comparison you want to make.
To the extent Terps lacks credibility, so do you. You both have your minds made up and nothing will deter either of you from your dogmatic belief in your own infallibility. The only difference between you is which end of the extreme spectrum you sit on.
1 legit turnover? He fumbled 6 times in those last 6 games, losing 2 of them. It's fair to give him a pass on the INT, as EE should have caught it, but fumbling has been his biggest issue, and it did not go away, no matter how much you want to fool yourself.
The fact that he lucked out and his own teammates recovered the majority of his fumbles doesn't make those fumbles disappear.
Most of the people who post here have seen him play all his games and are emotionally invested with his success or failure. Objectively he stinks so far. By any measure of any metric he's not been a top half of the league QB so far. Joe Judge seems to be all in with him so hopefully he becomes one quickly.
Most of the people who post here have seen him play all his games and are emotionally invested with his success or failure. Objectively he stinks so far. By any measure of any metric he's not been a top half of the league QB so far. Joe Judge seems to be all in with him so hopefully he becomes one quickly.
And that's the issue with using metrics for QBs. They are very team dependent. You need to think how guys will do when you replace situations. If you switched Mahomes and Brady two days ago the score is 60-3 probably. If you put every QB who got significant starting reps in the league into our situation the results aren't much better. I watch a ton of NFL and set up 3 tvs every week for the most part and DJ is certainly top 20 and flirting with top 15. This Aaron Rogers and Mahomes are probably only throwing for 25 TDs this year here and they are two of best in business right now.
Most of the people who post here have seen him play all his games and are emotionally invested with his success or failure. Objectively he stinks so far. By any measure of any metric he's not been a top half of the league QB so far. Joe Judge seems to be all in with him so hopefully he becomes one quickly.
Objectively he stinks so far
Correction: You mean subjectively. You’re quite welcome
Life is about learning and improving. If a person has all the ability, I don't understand why we don't allow that they too can grow. If Jones can't make the throws, or make first downs with his feet, or whatever... He doesn't have the physical ability, okay. But he does. How would anybody here feel if they were told at 23 years old that's as good as it gets? Would anybody succeed, ever?
It's pretty amazing.
And the same critics who've already written him off, don't seem to consider at all the unprecedented lack of OTAs, training camp, preseason games, rookie LT, starting C who's NEVER played C!, no #1 WR, a #1 target who leads the league in dropped passes resulting in INTs (6! Are you kidding me!?), etc. etc.
If anyone deserves a little benefit of the doubt for his soph year, it's Daniel Jones.
That was suprising to watch. That's a very solid WR crew. Just goes to show you the yips these guys show in Superbowl. Apparently Engram thinks every week is the superbowl. If he ever makes one, I know who I'm not going to.
Absurd? I could see disagreeing with it, or maybe describing it with the word "controversial" or even "excessive." But absurd?
I don't think anyone views either of you as even slightly objective.
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you can’t tell the difference between me and Terps? That’s your problem.
I don't think anyone views either of you as even slightly objective.
I don't know. Jones has sucked in the NFL. Saying he sucks in the NFL actually is objective...
Ironically, the 2006 version of Go Terps could have said the same thing about eli.
But did he say the same thing about Eli in 2006? Or are you simply ridiculing Terps based upon a position you only imagine he had?
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This is the NFL, not an internship. He's almost certainly getting a third year as the unquestioned starter based not on his performance, but his draft status.
What's the goal here? Is it to nurture Jones's professional development, or is it to compete with 31 other organizations to win the Super Bowl?
It’s both, mostly because the latter is not going to happen without the former. At least where Jones is the subject at hand.
Right... I'd say winning is the goal that is condition upon the method of developing Jones into a consistently functional starting QB, the sort that gives your team an advantage against the opposition when he steps on the field.
Am I giving this any credence??
That's the thing about PFF - it is horseshit for both sides of any argument.
If you look at his stats, he clearly played better starting around that eagle game (until he injured himself and tried to come back against the Cards).
Is it possible he was playing better because his young OL was playing better?
And is it possible he'll play better when he has a legit #1 target instead of a league leader in dropped passes?
Is it possible he and the OL all play better next year with more experience, OTAs, camp?
Hard to believe so many have already written him off.
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This is the NFL, not an internship. He's almost certainly getting a third year as the unquestioned starter based not on his performance, but his draft status.
What's the goal here? Is it to nurture Jones's professional development, or is it to compete with 31 other organizations to win the Super Bowl?
He's getting a third year because he's shown the potential to be a very good QB in this league. I know you don't agree with that, but Judge certainly does, and it's his opinion is the one that matters.
I don't think it is because of his performance. The best win in Daniel Jones 2 years with the team came with him and Barkley on the bench. I think year 3 is put or shut up time for Daniel Jones. It would accomplish nothing for Judge to cast doubt, so please leave Judge's words out of it. FWIW if a coach feels the need for a public vote of confidence, there is probably some concern.
I don't have a record requirement or a TD mandate for year 3. I want to see him be the reason we win games. Make a comeback, inspire his teammates. Make me want to watch the NY Giants play because I don't want to miss something great he might do, because he does great things on the field with some frequency.
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Ironically, the 2006 version of Go Terps could have said the same thing about eli.
But did he say the same thing about Eli in 2006? Or are you simply ridiculing Terps based upon a position you only imagine he had?
Do you really have to look up the meaning of the word "could"??
If you look at his stats, he clearly played better starting around that eagle game (until he injured himself and tried to come back against the Cards).
Is it possible he was playing better because his young OL was playing better?
And is it possible he'll play better when he has a legit #1 target instead of a league leader in dropped passes?
Is it possible he and the OL all play better next year with more experience, OTAs, camp?
Hard to believe so many have already written him off.
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in his last 6 starts and had 1 legit turnover with a tight end who can’t catch, running backs who don’t deserve to be on an active 53 man roster and hardly any receivers that can get open, so yeah call me crazy if I think he can improve greatly in a better situation.
1 legit turnover? He fumbled 6 times in those last 6 games, losing 2 of them. It's fair to give him a pass on the INT, as EE should have caught it, but fumbling has been his biggest issue, and it did not go away, no matter how much you want to fool yourself.
The fact that he lucked out and his own teammates recovered the majority of his fumbles doesn't make those fumbles disappear.
The fumble directed at him that Gallman fumbled is counted in your statistic there. Not every single piece of info is cut and dry, is it?
Phil Simms was before BBI, but we all know how much he was "loved" for about his first 5-6 seasons.
What the fuck?
It hit him in the hands!
If you look at his stats, he clearly played better starting around that eagle game (until he injured himself and tried to come back against the Cards).
Is it possible he was playing better because his young OL was playing better?
And is it possible he'll play better when he has a legit #1 target instead of a league leader in dropped passes?
Is it possible he and the OL all play better next year with more experience, OTAs, camp?
Hard to believe so many have already written him off.
I try not to address it much anymore even though what you’ve posted is exactly as I see it..Only 25 flucking games and people KNOW one way or the other
I don't think it is because of his performance. The best win in Daniel Jones 2 years with the team came with him and Barkley on the bench. I think year 3 is put or shut up time for Daniel Jones. It would accomplish nothing for Judge to cast doubt, so please leave Judge's words out of it. FWIW if a coach feels the need for a public vote of confidence, there is probably some concern.
I don't have a record requirement or a TD mandate for year 3. I want to see him be the reason we win games. Make a comeback, inspire his teammates. Make me want to watch the NY Giants play because I don't want to miss something great he might do, because he does great things on the field with some frequency.
Personally I think that Judge put that out there because he knew the fans and media were going to hammer about them moving on all offseason and didn't want the distraction all offseason. By saying it before he was asked about it, it was pretty clear his stance and why it really hasn't come up.
I don't have a TD mandate either and why I'd be reticent to put stats out there he needs to hit. One, have no idea what we are doing offseason, but I imagine we go with a rookie for that missing number 1 WR and rookies are rookies. Two, the offensive line coach hire is clear what we are trying to do next year. This is going to be a run first football team and try to control the game and put our defense in favorable positions. We'll certainly be on low end of NFL in possession per game.
We still have no redzone threats passing ball and I doubt Pitts is even there when we are on clock. But with the way the offensive line run blocks, Saquon back, and option for DJ to be extra man in running game, we should be almost unstoppable as is once we get down there. There won't be many passing TDs that don't come from big plays or the occasional play action down there.
They're all irrelevant to Jones.
This wouldn't bother me if it was just the fans doing it, but it certainly feels like Mara/Gettleman are hoping Jones can stand in as substitute Manning until Arch Manning declares for the draft.
They're all irrelevant to Jones.
This wouldn't bother me if it was just the fans doing it, but it certainly feels like Mara/Gettleman are hoping Jones can stand in as substitute Manning until Arch Manning declares for the draft.
But again - this is pure conjecture and wild speculation. What indications are there that the Giants are waiting for Arch Manning??
I mean - it is just another thing pulled from your ass without evidence. I feel like you could be a magician with an endless stream of rainbow-colored hankies being pulled from your anus daily.
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In comment 15148674 Go Terps said:
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It would have been difficult to maintain a level as poor as he showed for the whole 16 games.
That doesn't mean he's going to improve to a point where he's worth maintaining as the starter, though. He's still a long way from that.
At this point, why wouldn't you just root for that to be the case? I think it's pretty clear that management isn't going in a different direction. Everyone knows how you feel about it...
Is it more important to you that you be right about him not being good?
And BTW - I think it would be best for the Giants to move on from DJ...but at this point - what's the point of continuing to beat that dead horse?
Of course I'm rooting for him. But who gives a shit about what we're rooting for?
Daniel Jones isn't the dead horse that needs to be beaten. The dead horse is that the Giants are a poorly run organization that is more committed to its way of doing things than it is turning over every stone to try to win.
THAT is what is interesting to discuss. I don't give a shit what people are rooting for, and I don't expect them to care about what I'm rooting for. I'd rather discuss what is actually going on instead of our wishes.
Neither are productive, please be honest. Who you root for and pointing out that the Giants are doing X poorly are both things that have absolutely zero impact on what happens from here.
Stop pretending that being critical is somehow productive - at the fan level it is not. You enjoy the conversation more and that’s perfectly fine, but that’s all it is.
I do enjoy the insights both for and against keep Jones, but some of it is so over the top that I either ignore it or just stop reading the thread. And I know you don’t care about what I do, just giving you some perspective on why you get the reactions that you get.
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In comment 15148790 ryanmkeane said:
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you can’t tell the difference between me and Terps? That’s your problem.
I don't think anyone views either of you as even slightly objective.
I don't know. Jones has sucked in the NFL. Saying he sucks in the NFL actually is objective...
I don't think the summary is quite that easy.
I'm interested in understanding what's happening, good or bad. I'm not interesting in joining a collective session of self-delusion, which is then usually followed by a collective whitewashing where most pretend they didn't say what they actually said.
This thread is about Jones's performance, so let's talk honestly about Jones's performance. If the thread were entitled "I really like Daniel Jones and I'm rooting for him!" then I wouldn't have posted in here at all.
Now, it's a story (for Marylanders) of how fucked up Baltimore was for signing a failure.
I'm interested in understanding what's happening, good or bad. I'm not interesting in joining a collective session of self-delusion, which is then usually followed by a collective whitewashing where most pretend they didn't say what they actually said.
This thread is about Jones's performance, so let's talk honestly about Jones's performance. If the thread were entitled "I really like Daniel Jones and I'm rooting for him!" then I wouldn't have posted in here at all.
Actually, you would have come on here to say: “What’s to like?”
:)
+1
I'm interested in understanding what's happening, good or bad. I'm not interesting in joining a collective session of self-delusion, which is then usually followed by a collective whitewashing where most pretend they didn't say what they actually said.
This thread is about Jones's performance, so let's talk honestly about Jones's performance. If the thread were entitled "I really like Daniel Jones and I'm rooting for him!" then I wouldn't have posted in here at all.
Fair enough.
As for the PFF article the most notable takeaway for me was the drastic decrease in plays that could have resulted in a turnover. A lot of that is fumbles but some is poorly thrown balls. That tells me his completion % should likely be higher with a better supporting cast. He no doubt missed some throws to Slayton, but there’s others that were on a dime that were dropped.
I support a legit upgrade at QB if there was a realistic option. But I’m also excited to see what year 3 brings.
No, you're right, he's terrific.
Keep waving the pom=poms.
Did I say it wasn't BS??
It is BS. The only thing that I'm pointing out is that many more posters will likely call it that now - because it goes against their pitchfork thrusting.
It's about (what people like myself consider) the premature judgement (which both Eli and Simms were victims of).
I don't know if Jones is going to eventually be good enough to win a championship or not. I just don't know how people like you are so sure he never will be.
To make a final judgement after the shitty hand he's been dealt? New coach, no OTAs, rookie LT, a center who never played center, no preseason, a joke for #1 target, etc., etc.
Could we see him play with a legit #1 target?
Engram was possibly the worst "#1 target" I've ever seen on the Giants.
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In comment 15148674 Go Terps said:
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...the Giants are a poorly run organization that is more committed to its way of doing things than it is turning over every stone to try to win.
THAT is what is interesting to discuss. I don't give a shit what people are rooting for, and I don't expect them to care about what I'm rooting for. I'd rather discuss what is actually going on instead of our wishes.
I think we know that you think the poor Giants organization is interesting...it is literally all you ever seem to talk about.
Except....some of us say things like 'I think Jones is going to be good, I like the kid'
and then ALL YOU DO is follow up with your typical bullshit nonsense about why we are all stupid to believe that.
You are nothing more than a ridiculous, goal post moving bullshit artist dude.
As for the PFF article the most notable takeaway for me was the drastic decrease in plays that could have resulted in a turnover. A lot of that is fumbles but some is poorly thrown balls. That tells me his completion % should likely be higher with a better supporting cast. He no doubt missed some throws to Slayton, but there’s others that were on a dime that were dropped.
I support a legit upgrade at QB if there was a realistic option. But I’m also excited to see what year 3 brings.
We have people here that think DJ is an inaccurate QB which I don't get at all. Do they watch the rest of the NFL? QBs miss throws. DJ is certainly among the ones that miss some of the fewest throws. It's certainly one of his plus attributes. They are just highlighted to shit because our guys barely get open and opportunities are limited.
There was a deep throw that he "missed" to Slayton who had his guy by half step that SY highlighted in his review as a negative. Personally I put that one in the neutral throw bucket because he gave his WR a chance to make a play and it wasn't able to be intercepted. It's just that Slayton is completely inept on going up and getting a ball in traffic. It just gets beyond highlighted because the opps are few and far between. He's the type of QB that needs guys that can complete plays because his game is more accuracy driven. Josh Allen misses may more throws, but flip side is he can make purely arm driven plays much easier. Shit Mahomes misses two or three a game because his feet stink and why he wasn't drafted higher.
You have to just realize that some fans actually think Daniel Jones is going to be very good.
And until you realize that, you'll keep posting your typical bullshit "facts" posts like "well, he's not good now! where's the evidence?!?!"
It's like putting 100M in the stock market and then 2 years later going "where the fuck is my money?!?!?"
You'll keep yelling into the abyss.
The fumble directed at him that Gallman fumbled is counted in your statistic there. Not every single piece of info is cut and dry, is it?
It was a poor handoff (hit Gallman in his top arm), so yes, that fumble is on him. A HOF QB (Aikman) even mentioned it at the time.
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except that the OP is one of the biggest critics of PFF player ratings when they don't jibe with his.
Am I giving this any credence??
That's the thing about PFF - it is horseshit for both sides of any argument.
So why did you post it?
But there are a select few posters here who are absolutely, 100% unequivocally saying that he can't be that guy. and that, quite frankly, is complete and utter bullshit, and stuff that goes unchecked around here on a daily basis
My personal view is that I think it's unlikely Jones will develop into a top ten QB - which I think is needed to build a consistent contender. I will change my opinion if we see a 35/10 year next year (or something like that, I'm not hung up on specific numbers, just speaking generally). I don't even think his biggest supporters think he'll be a top ten QB. I haven't seen a single case advocating that. But I think anything less than a top ten QB is mostly a waste of time if you want to win championships.
The griping over whether Jones is average or worse is a waste of time to me. I see Jones' biggest supporters talk about fairly average performances by Jones in hopeful terms. The Giants are trying to win Super Bowls, not be 8-8.
I also don't see a lot of the mitigating circumstances changing next year. Barkley will be back. Maybe we add a receiver. But I don't think we'll have good weapons next year.
I have no problem giving Jones another year, I am in total agreement that he should be our starting QB next year. But I need an objective good year next year to be happy. Not improvement, not excuses, etc.
ryanmkeane : 2:57 pm : link : reply
and when you get them, you act like we just shot your whole family."
Take a look at some of the things you post at me...it seems the other way around.
Kirk Cousins - 35
Jackson - 26
Mayfield - 26
Stafford - 26
Murray - 26
Would you take all of these guys over Cousins?
I've watched him play for three years at Duke and never once did I ever feel as if I were watching a future NFL star. Nothing about this guy has ever been terribly impressive other than his straight line speed.
I'm just defending my view of him, along with others, and you can't seem to grasp that. That's the difference.
This thread is about Jones's performance, so let's talk honestly about Jones's performance. If the thread were entitled "I really like Daniel Jones and I'm rooting for him!" then I wouldn't have posted in here at all.
C'mon. now you're lying to both of us.
It's a lot to do in one offseason, especially when the defense has roughly as many needs.
25/14 and protecting the football would be a positive reflection, one that could be the type of jump we hoped to see from him in 2020. I think Jones gets 2021 and 2022 to show the desired progress, and so far there's a lot of holes in his game.
Maybe PFF is "right".
I have noticed Jones's QBR went from 55.7 in 2019 to 61.4 in 2020. The only reason I can think of for that - because the eye test doesn't support improvement in my eyes - is the inclusion of Jones's running stats. If that was backed out, and Jones was judged purely as a thrower, I can't imagine his QBR improving YoY.
It's a lot to do in one offseason, especially when the defense has roughly as many needs.
25/14 and protecting the football would be a positive reflection, one that could be the type of jump we hoped to see from him in 2020. I think Jones gets 2021 and 2022 to show the desired progress, and so far there's a lot of holes in his game.
Jon - that's a totally fair assessment, although I don't think he gets 2022 if he doesn't improve a lot.
More games like the home Philly, home Dallas, and none like home Tampa and he is on his way.
Maybe PFF is "right".
I have noticed Jones's QBR went from 55.7 in 2019 to 61.4 in 2020. The only reason I can think of for that - because the eye test doesn't support improvement in my eyes - is the inclusion of Jones's running stats. If that was backed out, and Jones was judged purely as a thrower, I can't imagine his QBR improving YoY.
And there he is
Maybe PFF is "right".
I have noticed Jones's QBR went from 55.7 in 2019 to 61.4 in 2020. The only reason I can think of for that - because the eye test doesn't support improvement in my eyes - is the inclusion of Jones's running stats. If that was backed out, and Jones was judged purely as a thrower, I can't imagine his QBR improving YoY.
Let's say that is an accurate accounting (I am going on blindly on this since you say a lot of things where one should keep a tight grip on skepticism). Why is running ability and the totality of a player not indicative of his value?
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That's where I am, they need WRs, to finish the OL, and potentially find an upgrade to Gallman, not to mention TEs.
It's a lot to do in one offseason, especially when the defense has roughly as many needs.
25/14 and protecting the football would be a positive reflection, one that could be the type of jump we hoped to see from him in 2020. I think Jones gets 2021 and 2022 to show the desired progress, and so far there's a lot of holes in his game.
Jon - that's a totally fair assessment, although I don't think he gets 2022 if he doesn't improve a lot.
More games like the home Philly, home Dallas, and none like home Tampa and he is on his way.
I think they'll find reasons to keep him in 2022. They're likely going to need another really bad season in order to change their minds, to get another top 5 draft pick to help find a QB more easily. Of course, the QB doesn't always need to be picked high but better odds.
Kirk Cousins - 35
Jackson - 26
Mayfield - 26
Stafford - 26
Murray - 26
Would you take all of these guys over Cousins?
Ryan, fair point - outside of Jackson, are any of those QBs top ten guys? I'm not really sold on Mayfield. I think Stafford will have much better numbers on the Rams.
I like Murray, too, I think he can be a top ten QB. I don't think he's there yet. Outside of him and Jackson, I wouldn't be totally thrilled with the guys on that list leading my team.
I'm not beholden to specific numbers. I won't be shitting on Jones if he goes 29/9. But I don't want average performance jammed down my throat as if it's great, lol.
It's a lot to do in one offseason, especially when the defense has roughly as many needs.
25/14 and protecting the football would be a positive reflection, one that could be the type of jump we hoped to see from him in 2020. I think Jones gets 2021 and 2022 to show the desired progress, and so far there's a lot of holes in his game.
Agreed - the Jones decision isn't made in a vacuum. If we are here 12 months from now and Jones goes 25/14 and the team is 8-8, I'd probably continue believing Jones isn't the guy to lead us to championships. However, I also don't think we'd have a quality option to upgrade the QB position with that record.
I desperately want Jones to prove me wrong, because I see a long road of average or worse football ahead if I'm right.
I guess what I'm saying is, this "30" measure that BBI has recently given is weird to me. Yeah, it's great to have over 30 TDs. But just because you do or don't, doesn't mean you are in, or not in, the top 10.
As said previously, Eli had 35 and 14 in 2015. He wasn't a top 10 QB. He had 29 TD in his best season ever, and it wasn't even close. I'd argue he was a top 5 QB that year.
Depending on the makeup of the team, You could go 24 and 8 and be a really, really good QB.
Mahomes and Watson both had under 30 TD's passing in 2019. Are they top 10?
2019: Mahomes 26, Brady 24, Watson 26, Rodgers 26, Allen 20
Jameis Winston had more than all of them. Is he better than them?
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That's where I am, they need WRs, to finish the OL, and potentially find an upgrade to Gallman, not to mention TEs.
It's a lot to do in one offseason, especially when the defense has roughly as many needs.
25/14 and protecting the football would be a positive reflection, one that could be the type of jump we hoped to see from him in 2020. I think Jones gets 2021 and 2022 to show the desired progress, and so far there's a lot of holes in his game.
Agreed - the Jones decision isn't made in a vacuum. If we are here 12 months from now and Jones goes 25/14 and the team is 8-8, I'd probably continue believing Jones isn't the guy to lead us to championships. However, I also don't think we'd have a quality option to upgrade the QB position with that record.
I desperately want Jones to prove me wrong, because I see a long road of average or worse football ahead if I'm right.
Yep, that's the systemic and leadership fear that motivates Terps and others to cut bait sooner, that Jones is just one symptom of the larger scale problems.
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of a thread here.
Maybe PFF is "right".
I have noticed Jones's QBR went from 55.7 in 2019 to 61.4 in 2020. The only reason I can think of for that - because the eye test doesn't support improvement in my eyes - is the inclusion of Jones's running stats. If that was backed out, and Jones was judged purely as a thrower, I can't imagine his QBR improving YoY.
Let's say that is an accurate accounting (I am going on blindly on this since you say a lot of things where one should keep a tight grip on skepticism). Why is running ability and the totality of a player not indicative of his value?
I think it is - to a degree. However, I'm not sure it's something we should count on every year. It's a more dynamic piece for Jones. If Jones was more like LJax, I could see giving it more weight.
But all I really care about is Jones's ability to be a thrower. Because that's the vehicle he is going to have to use to score points much more often than not...If he can't throw and complete passes at the right level, we need a different solution.
10 QBs hit 30 this year. 4 in 2019. 9 in 2018. It's a good approximation of a quality passing game. Stats have outliers.
I will probably be pretty happy with Jones if he hits 30 TDs and has a reasonable amount of INT's next year. I have a somewhat strong view that Jones is not going to be a top ten QB. I find setting objective measures like that helps me mitigate doubling down when I'm wrong. There are a lot of reasons why Jones can have a good season and not get there, but stats provide a helpful but not complete measure to analyze performance.
2019: Mahomes 26, Brady 24, Watson 26, Rodgers 26, Allen 20
Jameis Winston had more than all of them. Is he better than them?
30 isn't the end all number, but I think when you look year over year in the stat sheets, its likely the top 10 qbs in the game are reaching that number. Its an indicator that the offense is putting points on the board.
You've pointed out a couple of outliers, which I agree make the case its not necessarily indicative in a particular year (though I believe Mahomes missed a few games in 2019, so he likely exceeds that threshold). There could be times where a qb puts together an amazing drive, like Jones one drive against Pitt game 1 that ended in an unfortunate INT, and the ball is run in to finish the drive.
Stats don't tell the whole picture. Everyone pretty much understands that Deshaun Watson is a top 5 or 6 NFL quarterback. And yet....he has only been over 30 TD once in his NFL career. Why is that? Because the Texans stink, that's why.
But if Jones throws for 24 and 7, instead of 35 and 18....what would you rather have? 24 and 7 would tell me that we are likely a much better team, because we are running the ball and leading games.
But there are a select few posters here who are absolutely, 100% unequivocally saying that he can't be that guy. and that, quite frankly, is complete and utter bullshit, and stuff that goes unchecked around here on a daily basis
Are you kidding?? It gets checked, re-checked, triple checked and argued about until the cows come home on almost every thread.
Too many of you are completely obsessed with every post Go Terps puts out there. He has his views and you all hate them and/or the way he states them...every single time.
It's actually kind of weird the following he takes on with you chuckleheads.
Bullshit posts will get scrutinized.
- No pocket presence
- Doesn't see the field well
- slow throwing motion
- late getting the ball outside the numbers
Rest assured, if it's obvious to us on tv it's obvious to opposing defensive coordinators.
All the data says the sky is blue, and that Jones stinks.
All the data says the sky is blue, and that Jones stinks.
Bullshit, NOT after only 25 games.
Jones DID show progress. Some of you can't get your heads out of the overall stat page. Stats can be misleading. To be fair, not always, and Jones's stats aren't that good in 2020, but the first 8-10 games or so the stats were downright morbid. They did improve.
I guess not.....
He drastically improved......so better find something else to bitch about.....let’s talk about TD passes now.
Don’t forget their end game.....FIRE DG! They need To make this draft pick look bad..... very bad. Remember, they lost the LWilliams trade as ammo.
10 QBs hit 30 this year. 4 in 2019. 9 in 2018. It's a good approximation of a quality passing game. Stats have outliers.
I will probably be pretty happy with Jones if he hits 30 TDs and has a reasonable amount of INT's next year. I have a somewhat strong view that Jones is not going to be a top ten QB. I find setting objective measures like that helps me mitigate doubling down when I'm wrong. There are a lot of reasons why Jones can have a good season and not get there, but stats provide a helpful but not complete measure to analyze performance.
I like 30TDs as a metric.
We need to score more points than the dismal 17ppg this year.
So what should be the goal as a team to be in every game? 26ppg? Does that sound reasonable? I believe most of the teams in the playoffs were at that threshold or higher.
Thus, that means: 26 X 16 = 416 total needed points to compete.
What you say this equals in TDs per game? At least 2.5? Then you throw in FGs, etc.
Well, the defense and return teams can't be counted on to be a huge % of that total, right?
So it's passing league. Which means DJones has to be the guy behind the majority of the points...
I suspect that most people on BBI are coming around to that realization, given the discussions this winter around not needing a great QB to win a Super Bowl. You can feel the expectations being lowered.
10 QBs hit 30 this year. 4 in 2019. 9 in 2018. It's a good approximation of a quality passing game. Stats have outliers.
I will probably be pretty happy with Jones if he hits 30 TDs and has a reasonable amount of INT's next year. I have a somewhat strong view that Jones is not going to be a top ten QB. I find setting objective measures like that helps me mitigate doubling down when I'm wrong. There are a lot of reasons why Jones can have a good season and not get there, but stats provide a helpful but not complete measure to analyze performance.
Setting it at 30 is an unreasonable expectation though considering we just signed an offensive line coach that specializes in building lines who run block. Pretty obvious what our identity is going to try to be with the way the team is constructed. We still don't have an redzone passing threats. I think 25 is a much more reasonable mark for what this team is trying to construct. If he hits 25 passing TDs and keeps the ints to around 8, this will certainly be a playoff team next year unless Saquon goes down early again or he's the one guy his DR worked on that he doesn't do miracles with.
2019: Mahomes 26, Brady 24, Watson 26, Rodgers 26, Allen 20
Jameis Winston had more than all of them. Is he better than them?
For starters, Mahomes threw 26 in 14 games. And only 5 INTs. And averaged 8.3 Y/A.
Your ability to constantly avoid context in any of your posts is remarkable, it's right up there with your ability to create insane strawman arguments.
Jameis Winston threw 30 INTs, which was more than Mahomes, Brady, Rodgers and Watson combined. So no, he was not better.
If you're not careful, people are going to believe this dumb act you're putting on isn't an act.
More like not needing a top 5-10 QB to win a SB, that was the argument.
I guess not.....
He drastically improved......so better find something else to bitch about.....let’s talk about TD passes now.
Don’t forget their end game.....FIRE DG! They need To make this draft pick look bad..... very bad. Remember, they lost the LWilliams trade as ammo.
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started, but there is no basis in reality for it, to be considered some amazing measure of whether or not you are an elite QB.
2019: Mahomes 26, Brady 24, Watson 26, Rodgers 26, Allen 20
Jameis Winston had more than all of them. Is he better than them?
For starters, Mahomes threw 26 in 14 games. And only 5 INTs. And averaged 8.3 Y/A.
Your ability to constantly avoid context in any of your posts is remarkable, it's right up there with your ability to create insane strawman arguments.
Jameis Winston threw 30 INTs, which was more than Mahomes, Brady, Rodgers and Watson combined. So no, he was not better.
If you're not careful, people are going to believe this dumb act you're putting on isn't an act.
How many games did Daniel Jones play in 2019?
I suspect that most people on BBI are coming around to that realization, given the discussions this winter around not needing a great QB to win a Super Bowl. You can feel the expectations being lowered.
Again, I call Bullshit. I never said or implied “he’ll get significantly better.” I said I he MIGHT, but after only 25 games, I simply don’t KNOW YET..
Assuming he’s healthy and plays a full season in 2021, I’ll have a better, perhaps much better read on how he’s performing. Will it be a conclusive read? Not sure, but definitely better imv..
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Do any of them talk about his fumbles? Seems to me that was ALL they wanted to talk about after 2019.
I guess not.....
He drastically improved......so better find something else to bitch about.....let’s talk about TD passes now.
Don’t forget their end game.....FIRE DG! They need To make this draft pick look bad..... very bad. Remember, they lost the LWilliams trade as ammo.
FFS. Maybe, just maybe, people are sick of double digit loss seasons because they....SUCK.
Right, because the rest of us enjoy double digit loss seasons....
I guess not.....
He drastically improved......so better find something else to bitch about.....let’s talk about TD passes now.
Don’t forget their end game.....FIRE DG! They need To make this draft pick look bad..... very bad. Remember, they lost the LWilliams trade as ammo.
Eye-rolling post...
Jones did improve his turnover rate, but in doing so had less big plays with his arm, his TD% dropped precipitously and the Giants scored a lot less points.
The idea is to have the turnover rate go down while the productivity goes up, or at least stays the same.
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ryan, I agree that 30 TDs isn't some fool-proof binary measure of whether a QB is top ten or not.
10 QBs hit 30 this year. 4 in 2019. 9 in 2018. It's a good approximation of a quality passing game. Stats have outliers.
I will probably be pretty happy with Jones if he hits 30 TDs and has a reasonable amount of INT's next year. I have a somewhat strong view that Jones is not going to be a top ten QB. I find setting objective measures like that helps me mitigate doubling down when I'm wrong. There are a lot of reasons why Jones can have a good season and not get there, but stats provide a helpful but not complete measure to analyze performance.
Setting it at 30 is an unreasonable expectation though considering we just signed an offensive line coach that specializes in building lines who run block. Pretty obvious what our identity is going to try to be with the way the team is constructed. We still don't have an redzone passing threats. I think 25 is a much more reasonable mark for what this team is trying to construct. If he hits 25 passing TDs and keeps the ints to around 8, this will certainly be a playoff team next year unless Saquon goes down early again or he's the one guy his DR worked on that he doesn't do miracles with.
Sure, there are other variables - I may be very happy with a 25/8 season. I'm not 100% sure yet, obviously. But I think you're lowering the bar already. Most teams that win Super Bowls have much elite passing games. Not all, sure. But I think we need to demand better performance.
Those of you that hate each other on this board are the same, the only difference being which side of the fence you stand on.
This comes from someone that has has actually changed his mind on topics based on new information and agrees with both sides regularly on certain points.
Could you please tone it down just a notch?
If it turns out that you end up being right or wrong about what Jones is don't pat yourself on the back. You were lucky. Almost none of us know shit. They ones that have real knowledge are very careful with absolutes because they know better.
Well I was right on both of them...
That's not fair. He also didn't make his bed up in the morning once last week and didn't take out the trash when it was his turn two months ago.
Rosen on the other hand....
That said, this isn't Madden and we don't have Tom Brady accepting less than market value because he wants to win. I could get with Terps on a lot of what he wants but we have to get there first.
Truth is that we all want the Giants to start winning.
This is made up bullshit. MANY of the same posters that are supporting Jones were also adamant that the Giants take Darnold. They wanted a young QB at any cost. And I don’t see those same posters taking victory laps on Darnold.
There is plenty to discuss without making shit up. What purpose does that serve?
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But his sole solution is to get rid of everyone all the time. Get rid of Beckham, get rid of JPP, get rid of Jones, etc. I feel he'd put his own kid up for adoption if he forgot to do a homework.
Well I was right on both of them...
Both of who? Beckham, yes. JPP? He just won his second super bowl. Jones? Jury is still out.
You are just missing a key component, these are people not some linear asset. You have to have the right group of people together to watch something grow. What I do know with 100% certain is constant change never works and that is what you preach. I like that you think differently and have opposing views. But you fail on the human element. People and teams aren't linear. It is okay to make mistakes. The key is learning from them and avoiding them in the future. You can look at these pieces in isolation. But it is how the system works. Imo, Gettleman and Judge work very well together. I want to see this continue. Last FA reminded me of the year that we got Plax, Pierce, and McKenzie. I'd like to see that develop even more. I know you dont.
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But his sole solution is to get rid of everyone all the time. Get rid of Beckham, get rid of JPP, get rid of Jones, etc. I feel he'd put his own kid up for adoption if he forgot to do a homework.
You mean like Little Bill? It isn't crazy. How many football players actually are worth the 2nd contract? Patriots had sustained success by letting, players walk, getting extra draft picks and trading back.
I really dislike the hard cap model in the NFL. I wish the NFL was either more like the MLB model, or a softer cap NBA model with exceptions.
But the players are too stupid to dictate more favorable terms.
So as a fan, I have adapted over the years to look at everything through a cost-benefit analysis. And the sooner you can determine a player's value, the better. Even if you have to take less evidence to project forward faster because the player isn't producing early.
Patience, I believe, is really no longer a virtue in the NFL. It's just more time to likely make a worse decision. Unfortunately that's just the nature of trying to manage the cap well. Sure, you might make a mistake by jettisoning a player too early, but that's where you need the most contemporary methods to help manage that risk...
Link - ( New Window )
We may not yet know the full story on Jones, but we definitely know what we have in Jones threads. That will never change.
But yeah, he didn't get any better.
Jones got significantly better from his SO to JR season at Duke. Just because you say he didn't, doesn't mean it isn't 100% false.
Jones threw 24 in 12 games in 2019...what's the difference in that total? Nothing.
Mahomes is on another planet than Jones right now - which is my exact point. TD totals are way, way overrated when it comes to actual QB play.
The NFL game hasn't been the same for two decades. The rules and the college game have dictated which positions are most valuable and which are fungible. It's adapt or die...and at a quicker pace.
But yeah, he didn't get any better.
Pat Kirwan who saw a lot of DJ at Duke, said that it is indeed a fact, uncanny really, how bad his receivers were during DJ’s stint there. He was mainly referencing the myriad of drops on nicely thrown balls by DJ he suffered through the years. He’s not perfect as an analyst, but I’ll take his judgement on talent over most on here
Not saying that’s the angle every poster on that side of the fence takes, but some certainly do.
So when you’ve got no threat at RB, a TE who should be a threat that drops critical passes, a below average WR corps, and a brand new line, you aren’t going to get great results.
Coaches and analysts are going to be able to pick apart film a lot better than BBI can. I’m guessing there’s some good tape out there that highlight his pluses. Hopefully a better support staff can help him clean up what he doesn’t excel at.
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how to navigate it while still showing patience with developing players going on over two decades at this point.
The NFL game hasn't been the same for two decades. The rules and the college game have dictated which positions are most valuable and which are fungible. It's adapt or die...and at a quicker pace.
And when did that start? Circa 2009 with the proliferation of the spread offense? It’s a new debate on whether that’s here to stay or not. The NFL is ever evolving.
Jones got significantly better from his SO to JR season at Duke. Just because you say he didn't, doesn't mean it isn't 100% false.
You're misunderstanding what I said.
Jones has not shown himself to be a really good player either at Duke or with the Giants. If he becomes a really good quarterback it will be something we haven't seen yet.
It's based on faith and hope.
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Do any of them talk about his fumbles? Seems to me that was ALL they wanted to talk about after 2019.
I guess not.....
He drastically improved......so better find something else to bitch about.....let’s talk about TD passes now.
Don’t forget their end game.....FIRE DG! They need To make this draft pick look bad..... very bad. Remember, they lost the LWilliams trade as ammo.
Eye-rolling post...
Jones did improve his turnover rate, but in doing so had less big plays with his arm, his TD% dropped precipitously and the Giants scored a lot less points.
The idea is to have the turnover rate go down while the productivity goes up, or at least stays the same.
exactly right. Jones went from a turnover prose gunslinger to an ineffective game manager. Both versions of Jones are atrocious. He is unlikely to improve enough to be a champion QB. His absolute ceiling looks like Kirk Cousins. but I doubt he will turn out to be that good.
Secondly, I see Duke mentioned a couple times now in this thread. How many Duke players that Jones played with are in the NFL? Zero. So far, at the very least he’s proved he can be out there. And no, that’s not the bar, but he’s a work in progress.
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you can't just say things that aren't accurate.
Jones got significantly better from his SO to JR season at Duke. Just because you say he didn't, doesn't mean it isn't 100% false.
You're misunderstanding what I said.
Jones has not shown himself to be a really good player either at Duke or with the Giants. If he becomes a really good quarterback it will be something we haven't seen yet.
It's based on faith and hope.
You love those two words, haha.
You know we are fans right? And as a fan I can hope Jones will get better with better players around him. I can hope year 3 will be better fortune for the whole team. Not everything has to be rooteded in hard data. Maybe for the professionals it does but certainly not me.
And if what PFF is posting is accurate, he did in fact improve in a major area in 2020. I've also talked about how he cost us 2 wins easy with bone headed plays, and so did Engram. I think its reasonable to assume that if he continues to clean up his decision making, and the skill positions show up, that we are a baseline .500 team with plenty of room to grow.
No that isn't what I want, but I think its realistic. And from there the choice is - do i leverage a ton of picks for a trade up or Watson, or keep things as is and build the roster better. I know what route we are taking vs. what you want but that's that.
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... and also for Gettleman is absurd.
Absurd? I could see disagreeing with it, or maybe describing it with the word "controversial" or even "excessive." But absurd?
Hmm. Ok point taken. Absurd to strong.
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In comment 15149078 ryanmkeane said:
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you can't just say things that aren't accurate.
Jones got significantly better from his SO to JR season at Duke. Just because you say he didn't, doesn't mean it isn't 100% false.
You're misunderstanding what I said.
Jones has not shown himself to be a really good player either at Duke or with the Giants. If he becomes a really good quarterback it will be something we haven't seen yet.
It's based on faith and hope.
You love those two words, haha.
You know we are fans right? And as a fan I can hope Jones will get better with better players around him. I can hope year 3 will be better fortune for the whole team. Not everything has to be rooteded in hard data. Maybe for the professionals it does but certainly not me.
And if what PFF is posting is accurate, he did in fact improve in a major area in 2020. I've also talked about how he cost us 2 wins easy with bone headed plays, and so did Engram. I think its reasonable to assume that if he continues to clean up his decision making, and the skill positions show up, that we are a baseline .500 team with plenty of room to grow.
No that isn't what I want, but I think its realistic. And from there the choice is - do i leverage a ton of picks for a trade up or Watson, or keep things as is and build the roster better. I know what route we are taking vs. what you want but that's that.
And what’s interesting about the dynamic of the options you mention are (in reference to Go Terps’ stance) that trading for Watson seriously hinders the ability to build the team around him, both in cap space and future premium draft picks. Something Go Terps harps on constantly.
Personally, I think if the Giants offered the above deal, the Texans couldn’t accept fast enough.
2021 is probably a make or break year. Hopefully we have a serious upgrade at the skill positions.
And I hope Jones goes out this fall & looks legit because I don't want to be in QB hell, again.
What I don’t want to do is pay big money to a Cousins. Just not good enough to offset the cap burden.
But $40m in addition to giving up 3+ firsts is a no go for me. That’s just a fuck ton of ammo that guys like Judge definitely don’t want to give up.
Patience, I believe, is really no longer a virtue in the NFL. It's just more time to likely make a worse decision. Unfortunately that's just the nature of trying to manage the cap well. Sure, you might make a mistake by jettisoning a player too early, but that's where you need the most contemporary methods to help manage that risk...
There's little benefit to moving on from a player on a rookie contract. While there is a point to be made about an opportunity cost if you wait for a player to excel that doesn't, there's an equally strong argument to make that a player who blossoms late still has a greater value than a replacement. At QB - that's often a risk worth taking, especially if a team goes the route of a mediocre veteran.
Look at the Panthers. Cam leaves. They drafted Will Grier, but he didn't look like a guy who could step in - so they got a vet - Bridgewater. And they gave him a 3 year, $66M contract. If you want to talk about a cost benefit there, you'll be hard pressed to find it. They'd have been just as well off throwing a draftee, or a cheap replacement vet in there. That's where the cost benefit aspect hits. Seldom does it for a player on a rookie deal.
Waiting a year to see what we have in Jones bears little risk for a much better reward.
Personally, I think if the Giants offered the above deal, the Texans couldn’t accept fast enough.
I'm sure you would think that. I have no doubts.
Those four guys for Watson? I don't know, but they'd be morons to make that trade.
OK. Was the Fonz your hero when he jumped the shark?
Houston is rebuilding, they want fresh picks and maybe 1 player for Watson. They likely aren’t interested in a package of players averaging 2/5 through their rookie deals.
OK. Was the Fonz your hero when he jumped the shark?
Not just four starters, but four starters to build with at significant positions. Left tackle, D tackle, Qb and Rb. That’s a team starter pack, and they already have other pieces like JJ Watt.
No team today can give up four starting players for one with the cap the way it is and make the deal work.
No team today can give up four starting players for one with the cap the way it is and make the deal work.
Of course! But that shows the divide we’re dealing with here. If you would turn that down, how can we ever have a reasonable conversation?
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The Texans would be morons for moving a guy who doesn't want to be there for 4 starters??
OK. Was the Fonz your hero when he jumped the shark?
Not just four starters, but four starters to build with at significant positions. Left tackle, D tackle, Qb and Rb. That’s a shitty team starter pack, and they already have other pieces like JJ Watt.
Fixed it for you.
Yes - there are posters here in denial about what the Giants are.
There are people in denial about how things are viewed - that much is really apparent.
Britt - of all the posters on this board you're the last that should be calling anyone disconnected.
Take off the glasses and ask yourself what Jones and Barkley are really worth. You think they're great, fine. There's no proof for that, but fine. But between Barkley's injury and the position he plays, and Jones's general shittiness in his two years in the NFL...to trade for them would be to trade for a couple potential enormous problems.
There's a reason this team is 11-21 the last two years. Think about that long and hard before you call anyone else disconnected.
The other portion thinks drafting a RB at #2 was malpractice & Jones was over drafted. The Giants are 15-33 since 2018, can’t argue that.
Where do I fall? I’m fine sticking with the plan for 2021, but gotta see results this year. This needs to be a 2005 type season where there is a significant jump in wins.
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Dexter Lawrence OR Andrew Thomas (not both), plus a first, one or two mid round picks likely get that deal done. The fact that you’d turn down both of those players plus Saquon Barkley and a QB prospect shows how disconnected you’ve become.
Britt - of all the posters on this board you're the last that should be calling anyone disconnected.
Take off the glasses and ask yourself what Jones and Barkley are really worth. You think they're great, fine. There's no proof for that, but fine. But between Barkley's injury and the position he plays, and Jones's general shittiness in his two years in the NFL...to trade for them would be to trade for a couple potential enormous problems.
There's a reason this team is 11-21 the last two years. Think about that long and hard before you call anyone else disconnected.
The difference is that you see a dish of clay and say what it is and others see that clay and think what it could be. It’s just a philosophical, but now probably ideological, difference.
Every time I see the disclaimer: "Past performance is no guarantee of future results", I know exactly why that that has to be communicated to the public!
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So as a fan, I have adapted over the years to look at everything through a cost-benefit analysis. And the sooner you can determine a player's value, the better. Even if you have to take less evidence to project forward faster because the player isn't producing early.
Patience, I believe, is really no longer a virtue in the NFL. It's just more time to likely make a worse decision. Unfortunately that's just the nature of trying to manage the cap well. Sure, you might make a mistake by jettisoning a player too early, but that's where you need the most contemporary methods to help manage that risk...
There's little benefit to moving on from a player on a rookie contract. While there is a point to be made about an opportunity cost if you wait for a player to excel that doesn't, there's an equally strong argument to make that a player who blossoms late still has a greater value than a replacement. At QB - that's often a risk worth taking, especially if a team goes the route of a mediocre veteran.
Look at the Panthers. Cam leaves. They drafted Will Grier, but he didn't look like a guy who could step in - so they got a vet - Bridgewater. And they gave him a 3 year, $66M contract. If you want to talk about a cost benefit there, you'll be hard pressed to find it. They'd have been just as well off throwing a draftee, or a cheap replacement vet in there. That's where the cost benefit aspect hits. Seldom does it for a player on a rookie deal.
Waiting a year to see what we have in Jones bears little risk for a much better reward.
Absolutely there is risk in waiting another year with Jones because finding quality quarterbacks isn't easy like finding a running back. It's probably the hardest thing to do in professional team sports. So when you miss on the solution, it's a major setback. And since Jones just hasn't done enough to give anyone confidence he's the solution, that compounds the risk.
I know it's not going to happen, but this is another very interesting QB class where we will likely be in a draft position to consider one. And a strong case can be made at least five are more talented than Jones.
So all aboard the Patience Train...right?
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In comment 15149263 Britt in VA said:
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Dexter Lawrence OR Andrew Thomas (not both), plus a first, one or two mid round picks likely get that deal done. The fact that you’d turn down both of those players plus Saquon Barkley and a QB prospect shows how disconnected you’ve become.
Britt - of all the posters on this board you're the last that should be calling anyone disconnected.
Take off the glasses and ask yourself what Jones and Barkley are really worth. You think they're great, fine. There's no proof for that, but fine. But between Barkley's injury and the position he plays, and Jones's general shittiness in his two years in the NFL...to trade for them would be to trade for a couple potential enormous problems.
There's a reason this team is 11-21 the last two years. Think about that long and hard before you call anyone else disconnected.
The difference is that you see a dish of clay and say what it is and others see that clay and think what it could be. It’s just a philosophical, but now probably ideological, difference.
Well said.
The other portion thinks drafting a RB at #2 was malpractice & Jones was over drafted. The Giants are 15-33 since 2018, can’t argue that.
Where do I fall? I’m fine sticking with the plan for 2021, but gotta see results this year. This needs to be a 2005 type season where there is a significant jump in wins.
Plus one. This fall is huge for not only Jones, but the direction of this franchise. If we get legit skill players & Jones plays well, we should compete for playoffs.
There are people in denial about how things are viewed - that much is really apparent.
I don't know how the Texans would value those four players. Personally, I'd give up those four players for Watson easily. I would not give up three future firsts for Watson, though. A huge reason for the Giants poor record, IMO, is the mediocre ROI from first round picks (and yes, the book isn't closed yet on those four).
I think (and I think this was consensus) the Hopkins trade was incredibly dumb.
"Absolutely there is risk in waiting another year with Jones because finding quality quarterbacks isn't easy like finding a running back."
Especially coming from a guy who says, in retrospect of course, that the Giants should have waited for Herbert.
Because we know you'd be first in line, blasting the Giants Way, if we rode out Eli another year and then took a QB who delivered a 6-10 record.
And the core message? We wasted a year in finding a QB.
Consistency isn't a strong suit, yet you continue to act as if you have any.
Houston is rebuilding, they want fresh picks and maybe 1 player for Watson. They likely aren’t interested in a package of players averaging 2/5 through their rookie deals.
Houston is rebuilding, they want fresh picks and maybe 1 player for Watson. They likely aren’t interested in a package of players averaging 2/5 through their rookie deals.
Completely copying me, UConn!
Abrams would serve as a non football supervisory sort of GM in charge of Judge and the three Directors (Koncz, Sternfeld and Petit). In that scenario, if Judge continues to emerge as a very good NFL HC, his influence and power would far outweigh the other four guys in the room, so he would really be running the franchise and getting their help to fulfill all his duties.
Now I don’t know whether that is the best structure, but at least an intelligent knowledgeable football guy would be directing the franchise.
And one corollary is that we absolutely cannot have Daniel Jones destroying Judge’s career, if we see this Abrams as overseer scenario playing out. That’s one significant risk to persist with this gradually failing Jones experiment.
"Absolutely there is risk in waiting another year with Jones because finding quality quarterbacks isn't easy like finding a running back."
Especially coming from a guy who says, in retrospect of course, that the Giants should have waited for Herbert.
Because we know you'd be first in line, blasting the Giants Way, if we rode out Eli another year and then took a QB who delivered a 6-10 record.
And the core message? We wasted a year in finding a QB.
Consistency isn't a strong suit, yet you continue to act as if you have any.
As usual, you substitute me for someone else. I never said we should have just waited for Herbert. But I have said we should have taken Allen instead of Barkley.
I do harp on Herbert because his performance is the what a high QB selection should look like. And I absolutely wish we had him instead...
That can't happen.
Abrams would serve as a non football supervisory sort of GM in charge of Judge and the three Directors (Koncz, Sternfeld and Petit). In that scenario, if Judge continues to emerge as a very good NFL HC, his influence and power would far outweigh the other four guys in the room, so he would really be running the franchise and getting their help to fulfill all his duties.
Now I don’t know whether that is the best structure, but at least an intelligent knowledgeable football guy would be directing the franchise.
And one corollary is that we absolutely cannot have Daniel Jones destroying Judge’s career, if we see this Abrams as overseer scenario playing out. That’s one significant risk to persist with this gradually failing Jones experiment.
Well said.
bw in dc : 1/28/2020 1:46 pm : link
Drafting Herbert makes the most sense in theory.
But there is too much on the line with Jones and Gettleman's legacy. And I believe Mara is committed to seeing that play out.
They would never show the creativity and progressive thinking to move on from Jones for a potentially better franchise QB solution after one year. Just not their nature...
The Texans are laughing at that deal, come on now.
With that said, I also have to imagine he was frustrated with Jones last year with the turnovers. Judge at 39 years old pounding the drum for a new QB after playing 14 games in his sophomore season after being drafted #6 is not realistic. I think this is a huge year for Jones & Judge will be able to provide more feedback on what he thinks after another season.
Stronger backup needs to be brought in, if the turnovers continue and production isn’t there, having an alternative is a must.
Jones is 8-18 as Giants starter, and the best win the Giants have had in the last 2 years came with McCoy starting.
It’s time to win & quickly with Jones leading the charge.
No, he's just not a good NFL quarterback. Unfortunately for the Giants, poor quarterback play correlates pretty closely with losing football.
What’s your answer? I know I’m going with Judge. I think that’s pretty telling.
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After a wasted season
bw in dc : 1/28/2020 1:46 pm : link
Drafting Herbert makes the most sense in theory.
But there is too much on the line with Jones and Gettleman's legacy. And I believe Mara is committed to seeing that play out.
They would never show the creativity and progressive thinking to move on from Jones for a potentially better franchise QB solution after one year. Just not their nature...
Moving on from Jones after one year is taking the position that the Giants should cut bait like the Cards did with Rose. That's different than what you wrote what - "...the Giants should have waited for Herbert."
Again, I would have avoided all of this by drafting a QB over Barkley in 2018.
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If you google around for QB rankings from the various sites with all their different grades and methods of grading Jones is always between 20-25. Take it for what it's worth. Probably not much.
Most of the people who post here have seen him play all his games and are emotionally invested with his success or failure. Objectively he stinks so far. By any measure of any metric he's not been a top half of the league QB so far. Joe Judge seems to be all in with him so hopefully he becomes one quickly.
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Objectively he stinks so far
Correction: You mean subjectively. You’re quite welcome
This coming from the guy who said “some people are saying that Leonard Williams is better than Aaron Donald.” Something about glass houses and stones
Right.
And the genesis of that decision began five months prior in early December 2017 when McAdoo sat Eli and played Geno Smith against the Raiders.
Which led to the outrage over that move and a tidal wave of sympathy for Eli...
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This all does track back to the Barkley pick, which was catastrophic.
Right.
And the genesis of that decision began five months prior in early December 2017 when McAdoo sat Eli and played Geno Smith against the Raiders.
Which led to the outrage over that move and a tidal wave of sympathy for Eli...
Yes, the Barkley pick was a sinkhole decision. Never suggested forcing a QB there if evaluations didn't support it, but if they didn't then the Giants needed to get the hell out of that #2 spot and trade it to the highest bidder.
Cleveland was the best suitor...
And 3 years later, a significant group of you guys still can't let 2018 go.
What's the endgame? We all know that you disliked the Barkley pick. Why the fuck does it have to be said on every thread?
In many eyes, past performance certainly does lead to the same future results.
You guys just have to be judicious in how far back you go, though....
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This all does track back to the Barkley pick, which was catastrophic.
And 3 years later, a significant group of you guys still can't let 2018 go.
What's the endgame? We all know that you disliked the Barkley pick. Why the fuck does it have to be said on every thread?
It also seems like melodramatic hyperbole. Picks, even high picks bust all the time. Teams move on. One player, especially one who is at the top of his position (whether or not you feel that position needs to be on the field) does not cause a multi-year spiral.
I'm not making any judgement on Darnold, but he did just finish his THIRD season, right?
All many of us are saying is that DJ shouldn't be definitively judged after his SECOND season, especially considering the unprecedented SHIT he had to deal with. I've listed this a few times, but maybe if I do it in list form instead of a sentence, it will make a diff.
New coaching staff
No OTAs
Limited largely virtual training camp
No preseason games
Rookie starting LT (how many tackles through the years immediately started at LT? Not many)
Starting C who never played C!
Mediocre WRs (to be kind) and No #1 WR
#1 target who led the league (by far!) in dropped passes resulting in INTs (6!).
#1 target who was among league leaders in drop rate (7% compared to legit #1 targets like Davante Adams who have 0-1%)
And he was an Engram catch from finishing the season 6-3 and winning the div.
Can you really not see the difference?
It's a shame that you view football performance in 1 or 2 year periods - especially with draft picks. That's not the way things usually go.
It's important to get the coach and QB right, because if you do, then you build via draft and good free agency signings year in and year out to support those two things. That is what the Giants are doing now.
When in reality, the difference between 6-10 and 9-7 is really not that much. It's better coaching and better players, which we should have more of in 2021.
Yes - there are posters here in denial about what the Giants are.
No one is in denial that the Giants have generally sucked for 9 years. What some believe is that the current coaching staff and roster (and even GM to large extent bc he tore down a shitty roster) has nothing to do with the sucking from '12-19.
And despite unprecedented circumstances, the Giants finished the '20 season 5-3 and appear to be a team with the arrow pointing up (finally).
The other portion thinks drafting a RB at #2 was malpractice & Jones was over drafted. The Giants are 15-33 since 2018, can’t argue that.
Where do I fall? I’m fine sticking with the plan for 2021, but gotta see results this year. This needs to be a 2005 type season where there is a significant jump in wins.
The Giants have 5 losses by less than 10 points.. TOTAL. Think about how young this team is and think about that fact just pointed out. For those of you thinking this team is not building and is on the upswing, you are extremely blinded by actual wins and losses. The wins are coming, you don't lose so many close games if you aren't building. Now imagine a serviceable WR or 2, a TE who can actually, you know, catch, and a pass rusher. We win 4/5 of those tight games.
So the reduction in turnovers probably helped him a lot.
Also, if PFF looks at separation, his lower completions might not hurt as much if the receivers weren't open.
They seem to be saying Jones was better in his first year except for turnovers. An optimistic view would be that
- he has in fact significantly improved re turnovers
- last year's dip in performance was a sophomore slump due to several factors - WRs who couldn't get separation, his own injuries etc.
Thus rose colored glasses may suggest if he stays healthy and gets help at WR and OL he may be able to regain an upward trend.
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/9/2021 11:30 am
Finally!! I'll get people on board to realize PFF is full of shit!! It only takes having positive things said about one of BBI'ers whipping boys!
OR THE OTHER POSSIBILITY, IF PFF'S declaration actually has some validity:
most of BBI doesn't know from horse pucky how to evaluate football play.
You win either way my friend.
😉
The Giants have 5 losses by less than 10 points.. TOTAL. Think about how young this team is and think about that fact just pointed out. For those of you thinking this team is not building and is on the upswing, you are extremely blinded by actual wins and losses. The wins are coming, you don't lose so many close games if you aren't building. Now imagine a serviceable WR or 2, a TE who can actually, you know, catch, and a pass rusher. We win 4/5 of those tight games.
Atlanta, I believe, had 6 losses this year by a total of 16 points. So having close losses is not uncommon in the NFL and it really isn't indicative of any future success because each team basically overhauls their roster 25-30% every season.
Until we have a QB solution, I wouldn't predict anything like "the wins are coming"...
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In comment 15148735 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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Ironically, the 2006 version of Go Terps could have said the same thing about eli.
But did he say the same thing about Eli in 2006? Or are you simply ridiculing Terps based upon a position you only imagine he had?
Do you really have to look up the meaning of the word "could"??
Not anymore than you need to look up what italicization is used for.
You stated a hypothetical and imagined scenario, and then incorporated that into your ongoing crusade against the guy. "He is just the sort of guy who'd ______. Oooooh, I hate that guy!"
Personally, I think if the Giants offered the above deal, the Texans couldn’t accept fast enough.
You may win this argument on the technicality that the Texans are a terribly run team who are not beyond making a terribly stupid decision. Hell, they just made one last year with Hopkins.
The difference is that you see a dish of clay and say what it is and others see that clay and think what it could be. It’s just a philosophical, but now probably ideological, difference.
Not a bad analogy, but it's leaving out a crucial component -- which potters are about to mold the clay.
Moving on from Jones after one year is taking the position that the Giants should cut bait like the Cards did with Rose. That's different than what you wrote what - "...the Giants should have waited for Herbert."
Eh, it doesn't matter. We all know guys like Fatman -- the sort who fabricates or believes a falsehood or mistake, reacts emotionally to it or incorporates it into his judgement, and then can't retract the emotional response once corrected. You're not going to get some sort of attempt at understanding here.
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Moving on from Jones after one year is taking the position that the Giants should cut bait like the Cards did with Rose. That's different than what you wrote what - "...the Giants should have waited for Herbert."
Eh, it doesn't matter. We all know guys like Fatman -- the sort who fabricates or believes a falsehood or mistake, reacts emotionally to it or incorporates it into his judgement, and then can't retract the emotional response once corrected. You're not going to get some sort of attempt at understanding here.
LOL. The irony is rich there.
You are responding to a poster who literally creates fabrications and runs with them all the time. It is the basis for nearly everything he posts about "Jints Central" and the "Giants Way".
Hell, a couple of weeks ago he tried to step into a discussion on the Panthers hiring a GM saying that Rhule got his guy and picked him - with no proof. Since then, there have been several articles detailing exactly how Tepper is building the club and the method he is using by working collaboratively across several functions.
bw's entire basis for griping is based on suppositions he's made up.
It's a shame that you view football performance in 1 or 2 year periods - especially with draft picks. That's not the way things usually go.
I think it's terribly unlikely that the Barkley pick was made primarily with the year 2021 and beyond in mind.
When in reality, the difference between 6-10 and 9-7 is really not that much. It's better coaching and better players, which we should have more of in 2021.
Ryan, we are 18-46 over the last 4 years.
That is awful, it just is.
You are asking people look at health. Were the teams we were playing healthy? Did they have their starting QBs? If you are going to wipe away reality and ask us to speculate if we were healthy shouldn't we speculate the same for our opponents? If you are looking at the close games and you ask to speculate that they could have been wins can you not look at our close wins and speculate they could have been losses?
We must evaluate on what actually happened not what could have happened. When possible, always use more data than less. It is extremely reasonable for people to be tired of excuses after 18-46. You people are acting like we are good and complaining for no reason.
18-46 C'mon.
The Giants are going to have to PROVE IT ON THE FIELD before people are going to give them ANY credit.
Deservedly so.
1. The second McAdoo year where the entire team fell apart, nearly everyone on that team is no longer on this team
2. The 2 years of Pat Shurmur
3. The Joe Judge Giants, who looked about a thousand times better than the first two. Yeah - we went 6-10. You can continue to cry about it. But if we don't lose our best player and our tight end could catch, we probably go 8-8, 7-9 at worst.
So....yeah. That's likely what WOULD have happened. Is it a guarantee? No. But this Giants team this year went toe to toe with the Rams, the Super Bowl champs, beat Seattle in Seattle, swept the Redskins who won the division, went 4-2 in the division and got the fucking Eagles and Cowboys monkey off our back. Probably should have swept the division if we are being honest with ourselves. We gave away both road games against Dallas and Philly.
So - sorry if I'm not sitting here on a daily basis moping like a baby about the Giants. I'm damn excited for this team next year. It's about time we rally around these guys and see what they can fucking do with a full plate.
there you go again. Who is popping the champagne? Who is celebrating? I'm saying I'm excited for next year.
Agreed, that’s how our draft went all right.
1. The second McAdoo year where the entire team fell apart, nearly everyone on that team is no longer on this team
2. The 2 years of Pat Shurmur
3. The Joe Judge Giants, who looked about a thousand times better than the first two. Yeah - we went 6-10. You can continue to cry about it. But if we don't lose our best player and our tight end could catch, we probably go 8-8, 7-9 at worst.
So....yeah. That's likely what WOULD have happened. Is it a guarantee? No. But this Giants team this year went toe to toe with the Rams, the Super Bowl champs, beat Seattle in Seattle, swept the Redskins who won the division, went 4-2 in the division and got the fucking Eagles and Cowboys monkey off our back. Probably should have swept the division if we are being honest with ourselves. We gave away both road games against Dallas and Philly.
So - sorry if I'm not sitting here on a daily basis moping like a baby about the Giants. I'm damn excited for this team next year. It's about time we rally around these guys and see what they can fucking do with a full plate.
Do you think we can be 10-6 next season? Or do you think we'll see an 8-8 season?
Based on what I saw of Judge last year, I am. Not sure why everyone can't see the difference between the Shurmur years to last year.
Also can't understand why it's all or nothing. Football is a game of inches so slight improvement in multiple areas puts us over the hump in many close games. I'm imagining this team with a true #1 WR, another OL, and an ER. How many close games does that win us? I guess I just have confidence in Judge right now. Let's keep adding pieces. On Jones, I felt like he was starting to hit his stride in the Cincy game. That hamstring injury was BRUTAL timing.
I even said hey let's wait until week 8 and see how the team is doing, and it was night and day from early on in the season. It's a young team. Playoffs next year or bust
Based on what I saw of Judge last year, I am.
I have plenty of confidence in Judge. I have zero confidence in their schmuck GM and the rotten rosters he's been assembling for three years now.
I am encouraged by Judge but most of that is a result of the things he has said. He is telling me what I want to hear. Makes me nervous. I have had a successful life, largely, by ignoring what people say and focusing instead on what they do and holding them accountable to results.
The results have been bad for quite a while now.
oh cmon already. what if they took rosen or darnold? Shit, what if they took Allen and he didn't develop here like he had in Buffalo.
You guys simplify shit to build a story but it's never that easy.
The Giants took the safe pick and by safe I mean they took the most likeliest of players to reach super star potential. That guy was Barkley. Fuck man, enough already.
Well run teams have drafted RBs high before. Stop making shit up.
None of this is made up, none of it is hindsight.
When in reality, the difference between 6-10 and 9-7 is really not that much. It's better coaching and better players, which we should have more of in 2021.
We go 8-8 by accident this year if Barkley is playing 14 games or so.
8-8 when everyone had this team pegged for 4 wins. 8-8 means division champs. 8-8 means the arrow is CLEARLY pointing up.
Never mind the facts. Never mind the sad brutal truth that the Barkley pick should have helped facilitate this rebuild/turnaround, but the sad truth is the guy got fucking hurt. That's a shame. And it's maddening that some here refuse to see what happened right the hell in front of them.
One pick doesn't spiral shit. Stop with this garbage. The Bucs missed on plenty of picks too lately--they still won the title this year. Hows that OJ Howard pick looking now?
Barkley was as good a player as a team could draft. You can spin up the financial "pitfalls" all you want. It doesn't make it fact. It's anecdotal at best. At best..and even calling it anecdotal is being way too kind. For every list of cheap RBs playing on good teams I can find a similar list of cheap pass rushers.
Cheap great players! that's what you want. Doesn't matter what position they play. Want to build a great team? Find as many cheap good players as you can--RBs included.
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you are conflating the following things:
1. The second McAdoo year where the entire team fell apart, nearly everyone on that team is no longer on this team
2. The 2 years of Pat Shurmur
3. The Joe Judge Giants, who looked about a thousand times better than the first two. Yeah - we went 6-10. You can continue to cry about it. But if we don't lose our best player and our tight end could catch, we probably go 8-8, 7-9 at worst.
So....yeah. That's likely what WOULD have happened. Is it a guarantee? No. But this Giants team this year went toe to toe with the Rams, the Super Bowl champs, beat Seattle in Seattle, swept the Redskins who won the division, went 4-2 in the division and got the fucking Eagles and Cowboys monkey off our back. Probably should have swept the division if we are being honest with ourselves. We gave away both road games against Dallas and Philly.
So - sorry if I'm not sitting here on a daily basis moping like a baby about the Giants. I'm damn excited for this team next year. It's about time we rally around these guys and see what they can fucking do with a full plate.
Do you think we can be 10-6 next season? Or do you think we'll see an 8-8 season?
I think we can be 10-6 next season. Who is going to laugh me off that take? The 97 Giants went 10-5-1. The 84 Giants with an equally unproven QB and laughable group of WRs and even RBs went 9-7. We didn't know the QB was balls out yet. We didn't know the team was ready...yet. Until they were.
I picked the 2020 team to go 7-9 and said they could go 9-7. They should have gone 8-8 in my view but lost their best player for the year. Shit happens.
Yes. They can definitely go 10-6 in 2021. We see teams go from bad to good all the time and the Giants won't suffer atrophy like so many teams in their prime or sliding out of their prime do in this age of the NFL. The Giants are on the way up based on their age and coaching staff. Doesn't mean it's a lock of course, but I think it's more likely they win more games than less in 21.
None of this is made up, none of it is hindsight.
Good for you bro. And if Bark doesn't wreck his knee we have a division title and playoff game under our belts.
You got lucky.
the logic behind the pick was sound no matter your spin.
Circumstances matter. Shit goes south for a number of reasons.
And LOL thinking about the mere notion that lamar Jackson would be a league MVP here in NYG land. I like the kid, I even supported the idea of picking him, I just don't broadcast that every day here, and he aint winning shit here and you know it. Fucking guy might be dead behind this offense, save for 2020 when the OL was better.
Barkley was a sound decision that didn't work out yet. This wasn't the Saints picking Rodgers over LT. Barkley was the best player. He got hurt.
the logic behind the pick was sound no matter your spin.
Circumstances matter. Shit goes south for a number of reasons.
And LOL thinking about the mere notion that lamar Jackson would be a league MVP here in NYG land. I like the kid, I even supported the idea of picking him, I just don't broadcast that every day here, and he aint winning shit here and you know it. Fucking guy might be dead behind this offense, save for 2020 when the OL was better.
Barkley was a sound decision that didn't work out yet. This wasn't the Saints picking Rodgers over LT. Barkley was the best player. He got hurt.
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I haven't made anything up. I said before that draft that Barkley would be a terrible pick, and that has come to pass. There were a number of better options available, including a guy that has since been named league MVP. The concerns about RBs and injuries was raised before the pick, and injuries have been a major problem.
None of this is made up, none of it is hindsight.
Good for you bro. And if Bark doesn't wreck his knee we have a division title and playoff game under our belts.
You got lucky.
Given the quality of the football we've had to deal with I feel decidedly unlucky.
But the arrow is pointing up!
the logic behind the pick was sound no matter your spin.
Circumstances matter. Shit goes south for a number of reasons.
And LOL thinking about the mere notion that lamar Jackson would be a league MVP here in NYG land. I like the kid, I even supported the idea of picking him, I just don't broadcast that every day here, and he aint winning shit here and you know it. Fucking guy might be dead behind this offense, save for 2020 when the OL was better.
Barkley was a sound decision that didn't work out yet. This wasn't the Saints picking Rodgers over LT. Barkley was the best player. He got hurt.
The only "logic" to the pick would have been if we were a perennial contender who just happened to have the 2nd pock in the draft due to some smart wheeling and dealing...
As many have stated, he was the epitome of a luxury pick.
Barkley was the safest pick because RBs can usually contribute from day one. And he was probably the most exciting pick.
But I never bought the so called conventional wisdom that Barkley was the best player in that draft. If anyone cared to watch an Alabama game they would have seen the incredible versatility and ability of Minkah Fitzpatrick, who is now a 2X first team All-Pro. Same with QNelson at Notre Dame, who is now a 3X first team All-Pro.
Lol - wait and see what happens? That’s what we are all fucking saying dude.
But when we say it - the usual morons come out in droves and go “just wait until year 12 of the rebuild!”
It’s so so so tiresome at this point - from you too.
He injured his ankle last year and we had a first year QB. The team was basically in the “first year” of the rebuild, we were terrible.
And then he tore his knee this year. And wouldn’t you know it, the team improved a lot on defense, the OL was better, we were a lot better because of coaching and better players, and if he doesn’t get hurt, we win the division by probably a game or two.
You were the same guys who said we were “nothing more than a 3 win team” and then we almost won the division with a JV receiver squad and Alfred Morris. And then when we didn’t - you guys came back and started bitching again.
He injured his ankle last year and we had a first year QB. The team was basically in the “first year” of the rebuild, we were terrible.
And then he tore his knee this year. And wouldn’t you know it, the team improved a lot on defense, the OL was better, we were a lot better because of coaching and better players, and if he doesn’t get hurt, we win the division by probably a game or two.
You were the same guys who said we were “nothing more than a 3 win team” and then we almost won the division with a JV receiver squad and Alfred Morris. And then when we didn’t - you guys came back and started bitching again.
One could easily argue we almost won a JV division...true?
And there is no argument that Pat Mahomes was the best offensive player in 2018.
And oh - we had a shitty division? Who gives a fuck. Tell that to the Patriots who played in the dog shit AFC East for a million years before the Bills became good.
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I know u bashed the pick then.
the logic behind the pick was sound no matter your spin.
Circumstances matter. Shit goes south for a number of reasons.
And LOL thinking about the mere notion that lamar Jackson would be a league MVP here in NYG land. I like the kid, I even supported the idea of picking him, I just don't broadcast that every day here, and he aint winning shit here and you know it. Fucking guy might be dead behind this offense, save for 2020 when the OL was better.
Barkley was a sound decision that didn't work out yet. This wasn't the Saints picking Rodgers over LT. Barkley was the best player. He got hurt.
Bills would laugh at an offer of Barkley for Allen.
why settle for Allen? I think we should target Mahomes, but only if they throw in Tyreek Hill.
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There are just a few people that will never be optimistic.
Based on what I saw of Judge last year, I am.
I have plenty of confidence in Judge. I have zero confidence in their schmuck GM and the rotten rosters he's been assembling for three years now.
Fair enough. But it seems like Gettleman and Judge worked well together last year... do you not expect that to continue?
Did the Patriots typically go 2-8 outside of their crappy division?
That drives me nuts. Leading up to that draft it was said a million times: running backs get hurt all the time. Then when it happens, some people act like it was this terrible misfortune for the organization; a bolt from the blue that couldn't have been expected or accounted for.
Then of course there's the absurd notion that Barkley's presence alone is worth 2 wins or more, when the team went 5-11 and 4-12 with him on it.