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Count them up since 2015 draft

cznmike : 2/14/2021 6:30 am
Things may be getting better with the draft picks, but Jones is still an unknown and this year may be his make/break season and Thomas appears to be yet another first round bust at LT.
Granted it's always a guessing game, but why are many other teams so much better at guessing than the G-Men? Compare what the Giants have done in the past 5 years compared to KC, TB, GB, Pit, CLE and even the bitch-boys. Is it impossible to find a decent/great GM?

2015- (7 picks) Why bother...
not one player still on the team

2016- (6 picks) 1 starter; 1 out of 6 still on team
2nd round Sterling Shepard only starter and only one still on the team

2017- (7 picks) 2 starters; 3 out of 7 still on team
1st round Engram, 2nd round D Tomlinson starters; Gallman still on team

2018- (5 picks) 2 starters; all 5 still on team
1st round Barkley, 3rd round Carter, only two starters; Hernandez, Hill, McIntosh still on team

2019- (10 picks) 3 starters; 4 out of 10 still on team
1st round Jones, D Lawrence, 5th round D Slayton only starters; Love only other player still on team

2020- (10 picks) 3 starters; 7 out of 10 still on team
1st round Thomas, 5th round Lemieux, 7th round Crowder starters; McKinney, Peart, Brown, Coughlin, still on team
Thomas turned it around very well.  
George from PA : 2/14/2021 6:39 am : link
Played LT....and played hurt. I think he is the opposite of a bust. Gates is a uncovered gem.

Every coaching staff brings in their own guys....

not sure how you are counting but who are not on roster from 2020 draft? Most of the udfa are also still on roster.

But yes....the Giant can do much better in draft
Darney Holmes should also be considered a starter  
George from PA : 2/14/2021 6:42 am : link
.
No one prior to 2015 on the team either  
Chip : 2/14/2021 6:54 am : link
I think I would count Hernandez as a starter if Zeitler is let go.
.  
Big Blue '56 : 2/14/2021 6:59 am : link
Quote:


and Thomas appears to be yet another first round bust at LT.



I stopped reading after this
Add in Peart as a starter....could mean trouble for OL  
George from PA : 2/14/2021 7:03 am : link
I think Sy is right....we need to continue to upgrade OL.
RE: .  
adamg : 2/14/2021 7:06 am : link
In comment 15152542 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:


Quote:




and Thomas appears to be yet another first round bust at LT.





I stopped reading after this


Are you saying Thomas was good?
This is a terribly short-sighted post.  
Vin_Cuccs : 2/14/2021 7:12 am : link
Gettleman clearly has his flaws, but I think the original poster has to adjust his expectations.

First, understand that he has only been the general manager since 2018. You can’t blame him for anything prior to that.

To come away with 8 starters (and I think it may actually be more than that) in 3 years is actually pretty good.

Calling Thomas “another bust” is just flat out incorrect.

Also, look at free agency and not just the draft. He signed/acquired Martinez, Bradberry, L. Williams, and Peppers who are major contributors to this team.

He found Nick Gates, who seems to be an undrafted gem.

I’m not going to analyze every transaction, but understand that no GM is perfect. Gettleman certainly isn’t. But it looks like (hopefully) this team may have turned a corner.
Calling Thomas a bust is hyperbole  
adamg : 2/14/2021 7:13 am : link
But let's not act like he had a great season.
Yeah, labeling Thomas as a bust us ridiculous.  
robbieballs2003 : 2/14/2021 7:14 am : link
When Flowers was drafted and played hurt his rookie year so many people used that as an excuse and said he would get better. I remember having conversations in here about him saying we cannot assume he will get better. Players don't progress in a linear fashion. With Flowers I saw some horrendous technique. It was up to him to fix that. I am a big believer that if your technique is that bad coming into the NFL then the NFL isn't the best place to try to fix your technique. Defenders are way more advanced and will expose you so trying to learn and practice new techniques against the best defenders on the planet is extremely difficult.

I also know this sounds stupid but one of the worst things Flowers did entering the league was using his dad as his agent. Agents do a lot for players well beyond negotiating their first contracts. With the new rookie structures to salary there is little to negotiate so players don't want to pay an agent for that. It makes sense if that is all you think an agent does. Imo, Flowers would have gotten much better advice if he hired an agent on how the NFL works, what it takes to succeed, and had connections for people Flowers could train with. None of that happened and it is reasons like that where Flowers fell short.

Now, lets look at Thomas. They had similar rookie years. Both played LT, both underperformed, and both had injuries. It is easy to look on the surface and say that they were similar and, therefore, headed for a similar trajectory. I disagree. Thomas had pretty good technique coming into 5he league. He has things he has to clean up as he admittedly said his hands need work but there is a foundation. Secondly, he is very coachable unlike the stories we heard about Flowers. Third, Judge is holding players accountable. Fourth, Thomas works his tail off but not in a similar way to what we heard from Flowers. Thomas is a student of the game and along with his physical training it seems that he is very focused on film study as well.

Imo, Thomas showed a lot of promise this year, which in a world of instant results may get overlooked. He had some very poor games but also had some very good games. That volatility tells me he is going to be fine IF, and this is a big IF, he continues to work his tail off and take to coaching. For Thomas I think the injury can be a legit reason for his struggles whereas with Flowers there was more to it than the injury he had his rookie year.

I'm very bullish on Thomas.
I hope you're right  
adamg : 2/14/2021 7:24 am : link
.
As your title says, "Count them up"  
USAF NYG Fan : 2/14/2021 7:40 am : link
and go back to 2015 if you like. That's perfect.

How many OTs were drafted in the top 10 since 2015 and who were they?

How many were pushed into LT in their rookie year?

How many were considered successful at it as a rookie?

I've already done it and know better than to even consider calling Andrew Thomas a bust. In fact, I'm very optimistic about our LT situation going forward.
Quit reading  
Gman11 : 2/14/2021 7:51 am : link
after referring to Thomas as a bust.
Laughing at Thomas being a bust  
k2tampa : 2/14/2021 8:08 am : link
It was obvious he made huge strides as the year went along. But everyone ignores Covid and what it meant for rookies. Not just lost hands-on in person work but no preseason games. I wasn’t surprised at all by his slow start.
Among other problems with the OP  
adamg : 2/14/2021 8:13 am : link
Gallman and Tomlinson aren't on the 2021 team yet.
Errors  
SLIM_ : 2/14/2021 8:36 am : link
Currently 9 of 10 picks from last year are on the team. I can slightly understand losing track of Brunson but your omission of Holmes (who is basically a starter) is bizarre.

RE: This is a terribly short-sighted post.  
Jesse B : 2/14/2021 8:39 am : link
In comment 15152545 Vin_Cuccs said:
Quote:
Gettleman clearly has his flaws, but I think the original poster has to adjust his expectations.

First, understand that he has only been the general manager since 2018. You can’t blame him for anything prior to that.

To come away with 8 starters (and I think it may actually be more than that) in 3 years is actually pretty good.

Calling Thomas “another bust” is just flat out incorrect.

Also, look at free agency and not just the draft. He signed/acquired Martinez, Bradberry, L. Williams, and Peppers who are major contributors to this team.

He found Nick Gates, who seems to be an undrafted gem.

I’m not going to analyze every transaction, but understand that no GM is perfect. Gettleman certainly isn’t. But it looks like (hopefully) this team may have turned a corner.



Actually 8 starts in three years is fairly average. And When you factor they have been picking top 6 ever year and one year they had 3 first round picks (so that's 5 first round picks and 3 high second round picks) its really not that impressive.



To me it looks like all of the teams that started out about where the Giants were three years ago are in a better position than where the Giants are now. I do not think the talent disparity is shrinking around the league. My personal opinion obviously, but

Franchise QB? maybe
Franchise DE/pass rusher? No
Franchise CB? Yes (paid for him)
Franchise WR? No
Franchise LT? Maybe.


We will see but if there was a "wins above replacement GM stat" based on the expected return of draft position I still think we would be below average.



Hoping for better though
Thomas is not a Bust  
Samiam : 2/14/2021 8:57 am : link
But there were 4 OTs available and he was the first taken. Based on performance this year, he’s not as good as Wills or Becton or Wirfs. In fact, his rookie season was not even close to as good as any of them. And, while he improved in the 2nd half, he got destroyed in the Arizona game giving up 6 sacks to a decent edge player but no as star. And don’t mention that Wirfs played RT only. Wirfs wasn’t just a good rookie RT; he was one of the best RTs in the league. The Tampa OL didn’t make him, he made them much better.

I have hopes for Thomas and he may be ok or better but he was not the best choice and Gettleman could have done better or at least traded down if he wanted Thomas. He made the same mistake with Jones but that’s a different subject.
While its possible LT Thomas could turn into a bust, your OP  
chick310 : 2/14/2021 9:06 am : link
isn't going to be taken very seriously with such a take like that in the very first sentence.

You are obviously just looking for reactions to that and the inevitable arguments that feed from it.

Good luck with it.





Stopped reading after  
UConn4523 : 2/14/2021 9:49 am : link
Thomas is a bust.

Great thread otherwise though, very insightful and thought provoking. Love the fresh new takes I’ve never read before too!
RE: Calling Thomas a bust is hyperbole  
Big Blue '56 : 2/14/2021 10:02 am : link
In comment 15152546 adamg said:
Quote:
But let's not act like he had a great season.


Did ANYONE say that? We were ONLY referring to the bust part. Not sure where you equated had some good production with the bad production with taking a posture of bust.
RE: Thomas is not a Bust  
JoeyBigBlue : 2/14/2021 10:09 am : link
In comment 15152580 Samiam said:
Quote:
But there were 4 OTs available and he was the first taken. Based on performance this year, he’s not as good as Wills or Becton or Wirfs. In fact, his rookie season was not even close to as good as any of them. And, while he improved in the 2nd half, he got destroyed in the Arizona game giving up 6 sacks to a decent edge player but no as star. And don’t mention that Wirfs played RT only. Wirfs wasn’t just a good rookie RT; he was one of the best RTs in the league. The Tampa OL didn’t make him, he made them much better.

I have hopes for Thomas and he may be ok or better but he was not the best choice and Gettleman could have done better or at least traded down if he wanted Thomas. He made the same mistake with Jones but that’s a different subject.



Wills had a lower PFF agrade and committed something like 11 penalties. Thomas was much better than him after a rough start.
Yes, Thomas had an awful game against the Cards,  
Big Blue '56 : 2/14/2021 10:11 am : link
but he improved a lot, imo, the second half of the season as did the rest of the team. Hopefully the new OL coach will be just the tonic for him.
RE: RE: Thomas is not a Bust  
adamg : 2/14/2021 10:14 am : link
In comment 15152622 JoeyBigBlue said:
Quote:
In comment 15152580 Samiam said:


Quote:


But there were 4 OTs available and he was the first taken. Based on performance this year, he’s not as good as Wills or Becton or Wirfs. In fact, his rookie season was not even close to as good as any of them. And, while he improved in the 2nd half, he got destroyed in the Arizona game giving up 6 sacks to a decent edge player but no as star. And don’t mention that Wirfs played RT only. Wirfs wasn’t just a good rookie RT; he was one of the best RTs in the league. The Tampa OL didn’t make him, he made them much better.

I have hopes for Thomas and he may be ok or better but he was not the best choice and Gettleman could have done better or at least traded down if he wanted Thomas. He made the same mistake with Jones but that’s a different subject.




Wills had a lower PFF agrade and committed something like 11 penalties. Thomas was much better than him after a rough start.


Thomas did give up more than twice as many sacks.
RE: RE: Calling Thomas a bust is hyperbole  
adamg : 2/14/2021 10:15 am : link
In comment 15152616 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 15152546 adamg said:


Quote:


But let's not act like he had a great season.



Did ANYONE say that? We were ONLY referring to the bust part. Not sure where you equated had some good production with the bad production with taking a posture of bust.



Be honest. You're not saying Thomas is an unknown. You're saying he's going to be a good player. That hasn't been shown yet.

Not that I'm giving up on a first round pick after a shitty shortened offseason. But, Thomas didn't have a promising rookie season imho.
RE: RE: RE: Thomas is not a Bust  
JoeyBigBlue : 2/14/2021 10:21 am : link
In comment 15152625 adamg said:
Quote:
In comment 15152622 JoeyBigBlue said:


Quote:


In comment 15152580 Samiam said:


Quote:


But there were 4 OTs available and he was the first taken. Based on performance this year, he’s not as good as Wills or Becton or Wirfs. In fact, his rookie season was not even close to as good as any of them. And, while he improved in the 2nd half, he got destroyed in the Arizona game giving up 6 sacks to a decent edge player but no as star. And don’t mention that Wirfs played RT only. Wirfs wasn’t just a good rookie RT; he was one of the best RTs in the league. The Tampa OL didn’t make him, he made them much better.

I have hopes for Thomas and he may be ok or better but he was not the best choice and Gettleman could have done better or at least traded down if he wanted Thomas. He made the same mistake with Jones but that’s a different subject.




Wills had a lower PFF agrade and committed something like 11 penalties. Thomas was much better than him after a rough start.



Thomas did give up more than twice as many sacks.



And he committed 4 times as many penalties.
RE: RE: RE: Calling Thomas a bust is hyperbole  
Big Blue '56 : 2/14/2021 10:22 am : link
In comment 15152626 adamg said:
Quote:
In comment 15152616 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


In comment 15152546 adamg said:


Quote:


But let's not act like he had a great season.



Did ANYONE say that? We were ONLY referring to the bust part. Not sure where you equated had some good production with the bad production with taking a posture of bust.




Be honest. You're not saying Thomas is an unknown. You're saying he's going to be a good player. That hasn't been shown yet.

Not that I'm giving up on a first round pick after a shitty shortened offseason. But, Thomas didn't have a promising rookie season imho.


That I think he’ll be good or you don’t is an opinion that remains to be seen. He was highly regarded (I don’t watch college) by those evaluators I tend to trust. Hopefully the new OL coach will be better than what he had..
No he didn't  
adamg : 2/14/2021 10:23 am : link
.
PFF has some good things to say about Thomas  
adamg : 2/14/2021 10:24 am : link
Quote:
T ANDREW THOMAS, NEW YORK GIANTS
Round (Selection): 1 (4th)

What went wrong in 2020: Thomas slotted in second-to-last in pass-blocking grade among left tackles in 2020. He gave up 14 more pressures (57) than any left tackle in the league and also surrendered more sacks (10) than anyone at the position. Thomas allowed four or more pressures in over half of his games this season. Early on in the season, he was getting impatient and would immediately pop out of his stance. The fourth overall pick overall had exceptionally poor timing, and that led to a lot of lost reps.

Why they are going to break out in 2021: Things did take a turn for the better for Thomas in the middle of the year. While he was still imperfect, we weren’t seeing him extend on his punch in pass protection as often as he was before. He was more patient with it. That played a significant part in his pass-blocking grade jumping from 45.3 through Week 7 to 63.5 from Week 8 on.

And for those concerned about the lofty pressure total Thomas gave up in Year 1, not every quality pass-protecting tackle in the NFL came out and had a hot start to their NFL career.

LT Andrew Thomas
NYG 2020 4th overall pick

Stat
RT Lane Johnson
PHI 2013 4th overall pick

10 Sacks 10
8 Hits 8
39 Hurries 39
57 Total pressures 57
615 Pass-block snaps 620
Just as PFF's Ben Linsey wrote, the Giants would have taken Wirfs 10 times out of 10 knowing what they know now. At the end of the day, though, all is not lost with the former Georgia Bulldog. He is still more than capable of climbing out of the hole he dug himself after his notable improvement in the middle of the 2020 campaign.

Compare him to Lane Johnson - ( New Window )
BB56  
adamg : 2/14/2021 10:26 am : link
I'm rooting for him. But I'm not going to be blindly optimistic. I do think if he has the goods, Judge will get it out of him.
RE: BB56  
UConn4523 : 2/14/2021 10:32 am : link
In comment 15152633 adamg said:
Quote:
I'm rooting for him. But I'm not going to be blindly optimistic. I do think if he has the goods, Judge will get it out of him.


Thinking Thomas will be good isn’t blind optimism. Did you watch the second half of the season, particularly after Colombo’s exit?
Imagine already declaring Thomas a bust?  
Sean : 2/14/2021 10:39 am : link
Can’t take this post at all seriously. Wirfs blocked for Brady on the right side, Thomas is blocking for Jones on the left, and played hurt. Most importantly, he showed improvement as the year went on.
This thread is a fucking embarrassment  
JoeyBigBlue : 2/14/2021 10:39 am : link
If you’re on BBI, I consider you a pretty big football fan. To say that Thomas is a bust based him giving up 10 sacks, then you A) didn’t watch him play B) you don’t know who what you are watching C) you have a built in bias that leads you to make false claims.

He had a rough start. His pass blocking sets were off, due to an O-Line coach that changed his approached. After he went back to his approach from Georgia he performed a ton better. He started showing why the Giants chose him as the No. 4 overall pick.
I think the issue with DG's drafts  
AdamBrag : 2/14/2021 10:45 am : link
Are that after 3 years, there hasn't been a majorly impactful player drafted.

Like if you look at the Bucs in the past 3 years, they've drafted:

Vita Vea
Carlton Davis
Alex Cappa
Jordan Whitehead
Devin White
Jamel Dean
Tristan Wirfs
Antoine Winfield

All are impactful starters

After three years of drafting, all DG can say is there's a bunch of players who could still turn out to be impactful.


RE: RE: BB56  
adamg : 2/14/2021 10:47 am : link
In comment 15152637 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 15152633 adamg said:


Quote:


I'm rooting for him. But I'm not going to be blindly optimistic. I do think if he has the goods, Judge will get it out of him.



Thinking Thomas will be good isn’t blind optimism. Did you watch the second half of the season, particularly after Colombo’s exit?
You're right. I'm probably overstating. I do think it's interesting to explore how and why the OP is wrong though. I like the principle of charity. How serious is a post that conflates Reese's and DG's drafts anyway?

I do take Sy's point about the OL seriously though. I hope DG makes moves to improve it, even if we're penciling in Thomas as one of the pieces moving forward. I think he still has some proving to do. That's all. I'm not opposed to moving him to the right side, if we can get another LT option that is better.
RE: I think the issue with DG's drafts  
Big Blue '56 : 2/14/2021 10:52 am : link
In comment 15152646 AdamBrag said:
Quote:
Are that after 3 years, there hasn't been a majorly impactful player drafted.

Like if you look at the Bucs in the past 3 years, they've drafted:

Vita Vea
Carlton Davis
Alex Cappa
Jordan Whitehead
Devin White
Jamel Dean
Tristan Wirfs
Antoine Winfield

All are impactful starters

After three years of drafting, all DG can say is there's a bunch of players who could still turn out to be impactful.



Barkley had one of the best, if not the best RB rookie year ever. He was hampered most of ‘19 by his HAS even though he tried to gamely play on it towards the end but clearly couldn’t cut/pivot, etc as he normally did. We know about ‘20..So, SB was impactful when healthy..Obviously, if he doesn’t recover the way we’d like, is impactful days would most likely be over, imo.
RE: I think the issue with DG's drafts  
Big Blue '56 : 2/14/2021 10:54 am : link
In comment 15152646 AdamBrag said:
Quote:
Are that after 3 years, there hasn't been a majorly impactful player drafted.

Like if you look at the Bucs in the past 3 years, they've drafted:

Vita Vea
Carlton Davis
Alex Cappa
Jordan Whitehead
Devin White
Jamel Dean
Tristan Wirfs
Antoine Winfield

All are impactful starters

After three years of drafting, all DG can say is there's a bunch of players who could still turn out to be impactful.



Dexter Lawrence was impactful, imv. McKinney was injured. Let me think about others. I’m blanking at the moment...😎
Love and Slayton are good depth  
adamg : 2/14/2021 11:00 am : link
.
Flowers still being in his stance while the DE is past him is the  
gtt350 : 2/14/2021 11:00 am : link
definition of a bust
RE: .  
SGMen : 2/14/2021 11:03 am : link
In comment 15152542 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:


Quote:




and Thomas appears to be yet another first round bust at LT.





I stopped reading after this
I'm laughing cause I thought the same thing! I mean, I don't like to pick on any poster, and I'm not picking on him here but rather making a statement of what I see in our culture: what the heck happened to critical thinking? To Pause, Collect Facts, and operate on the best information not feelings? It just stuns me what I see and I'm in my 50's, Generation X.
RE: Yeah, labeling Thomas as a bust us ridiculous.  
Alan W : 2/14/2021 11:56 am : link
In comment 15152547 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
When Flowers was drafted and played hurt his rookie year so many people used that as an excuse and said he would get better. I remember having conversations in here about him saying we cannot assume he will get better. Players don't progress in a linear fashion. With Flowers I saw some horrendous technique. It was up to him to fix that. I am a big believer that if your technique is that bad coming into the NFL then the NFL isn't the best place to try to fix your technique. Defenders are way more advanced and will expose you so trying to learn and practice new techniques against the best defenders on the planet is extremely difficult.

I also know this sounds stupid but one of the worst things Flowers did entering the league was using his dad as his agent. Agents do a lot for players well beyond negotiating their first contracts. With the new rookie structures to salary there is little to negotiate so players don't want to pay an agent for that. It makes sense if that is all you think an agent does. Imo, Flowers would have gotten much better advice if he hired an agent on how the NFL works, what it takes to succeed, and had connections for people Flowers could train with. None of that happened and it is reasons like that where Flowers fell short.

Now, lets look at Thomas. They had similar rookie years. Both played LT, both underperformed, and both had injuries. It is easy to look on the surface and say that they were similar and, therefore, headed for a similar trajectory. I disagree. Thomas had pretty good technique coming into 5he league. He has things he has to clean up as he admittedly said his hands need work but there is a foundation. Secondly, he is very coachable unlike the stories we heard about Flowers. Third, Judge is holding players accountable. Fourth, Thomas works his tail off but not in a similar way to what we heard from Flowers. Thomas is a student of the game and along with his physical training it seems that he is very focused on film study as well.

Imo, Thomas showed a lot of promise this year, which in a world of instant results may get overlooked. He had some very poor games but also had some very good games. That volatility tells me he is going to be fine IF, and this is a big IF, he continues to work his tail off and take to coaching. For Thomas I think the injury can be a legit reason for his struggles whereas with Flowers there was more to it than the injury he had his rookie year.

I'm very bullish on Thomas.


another well-thoughtout response from a stellar poster
RE: .  
Section331 : 2/14/2021 12:07 pm : link
In comment 15152542 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:


Quote:




and Thomas appears to be yet another first round bust at LT.





I stopped reading after this


Exactly, What a ridiculous comment. Did the OP even watch any games in the 2nd half of the season?
Andrew Thomas showed a lot of promise  
AdamBrag : 2/14/2021 12:41 pm : link
Giants draft picks in recent years have been underwhelming.

Both statements can be true.
Thomas was very very good the 2nd half of the season  
PatersonPlank : 2/14/2021 12:59 pm : link
Arguably the best of the top OL draft picks. How can anyone say the guys is a bust. Its either just stirring the pot or not understanding football. Thomas was one of the few bright spots. So far you would have to say he is worth the pick
Lousy record and bad drafting  
jeff57 : 2/14/2021 1:26 pm : link
Go hand in hand. Not enough starters, and quality starters, from those drafts. But that’s been an ongoing problem for nearly a decade now.
Keep Coming Back to This  
Samiam : 2/14/2021 2:19 pm : link
Keep reading how great, how good Thomas was in the 2nd half. Just explain to me how giving up 6 sacks in the Arizona game to an edge rusher who is clearly not an all star. How often does a starting OT give up 6 sacks in 1 game? And that’s part of playing pretty good?
The  
Toth029 : 2/16/2021 3:15 am : link
Arizona game was an anomaly for the line. They had by far their worst game (and a game that potentially cemented some team overpaying Riddick) with an injured QB who had absolute no mobility. They called a lot of blitzes which made moving offensively difficult. How one can single handedly blame AT for that game is hilarious. Every member on the line deserved blame, as should Jones, Judge and Garrett.

Thomas was a liability and turned into a very good player in the end. Run blocking included which is another big proponent for these things. Why is it ignored? I'm comfortable with Thomas and Gates going forward. I do hope Lemiuex improves in pass pro but got Richie Seubert vibes with him.
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