I like Tomlinson a lot but if we have a shot at Golladay or Robinson, I’m opting to re-sign LW and using the Tomlinson money to put towards signing Golladay or Robinson. This obviously assumes we aren’t able to perform the cap gymnastics required to sign LW, Tomlinson, and a top free agent WR.
In my opinion it’s harder to find a legit #1 WR than it is to draft another guy that is close to Tomlinson’s caliber. I think this is a case where you have to figure out which position will have the biggest impact on the win/loss column. I feel that is a #1 WR since it is just as impactful on the running game as the passing game.
How does everyone else feel about this?
I just fundamentally do not agree with an over-allocation of assets and resources on the DL in today's NFL, unless it includes an unstoppable pass rush. Winning in the trenches is important, but I believe we have the pieces to still be stout along the DL without Tomlinson. I think his marginal value is less than what a true #1 WR would bring.
Per the bold, I think the same thing, but replace Tomlinson with LW.
And that should allow for more money to be spend where the need is greatest.
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I just fundamentally do not agree with an over-allocation of assets and resources on the DL in today's NFL, unless it includes an unstoppable pass rush. Winning in the trenches is important, but I believe we have the pieces to still be stout along the DL without Tomlinson. I think his marginal value is less than what a true #1 WR would bring.
Per the bold, I think the same thing, but replace Tomlinson with LW.
And that should allow for more money to be spend where the need is greatest.
and hope that someone can fill that gap without too much of a dropoff - no guarantee there.
I don't agree with that Gatorade Dunk
That is not sound judgement there. You weaken a strength and "hope" that someone can fill the gap". If we see a drop of with Tomlinson gone, it will probably be the detrimental to LW. We can see his performance drop off and there is no guarantee that B Hill will resign. Then you're left with LW and Lawrence.
But i'm in agreement with bw on this. I would let LW walk if it means i lose both. Ideally, i would like to have both
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In comment 15153542 Gatorade Dunk said:
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I just fundamentally do not agree with an over-allocation of assets and resources on the DL in today's NFL, unless it includes an unstoppable pass rush. Winning in the trenches is important, but I believe we have the pieces to still be stout along the DL without Tomlinson. I think his marginal value is less than what a true #1 WR would bring.
Per the bold, I think the same thing, but replace Tomlinson with LW.
And that should allow for more money to be spend where the need is greatest.
and hope that someone can fill that gap without too much of a dropoff - no guarantee there.
I don't agree with that Gatorade Dunk
That is not sound judgement there. You weaken a strength and "hope" that someone can fill the gap". If we see a drop of with Tomlinson gone, it will probably be the detrimental to LW. We can see his performance drop off and there is no guarantee that B Hill will resign. Then you're left with LW and Lawrence.
But i'm in agreement with bw on this. I would let LW walk if it means i lose both. Ideally, i would like to have both
If you need a very good 1st round pick (Lawrence), a fairly productive 3rd round pick (Hill) and a full-priced 2nd contract guy in Tomlinson to prop up your stud defensive lineman in Williams, I don't think he's necessarily the superstar that his next contract will reflect.
Aaron Donald makes the DL around him better or at least maintains his excellence regardless of the varying cast surrounding him. So did JJ Watt in his prime. That's the level we should be hoping that Williams is ascending toward; it's almost certainly how he'll be paid.
It's not a sure thing that Tomlinson's replacement will equal his production, but the cupboard isn't bare regardless, especially not to the degree that the WR group is. Rookie WRs aren't any more likely to immediately produce than rookie DL. The DL is just much more equipped to survive that risk than the WRs are (and the offense by extension).
Another bad season for the offense and we're right back here in the cellar for another year, this time probably with an eye on QB prospects again. The best case scenario for this team is for Jones to succeed, and we've seen this past season that we're not going to get that without a significant talent upgrade surrounding him. Simply drafting a highly rated WR prospect isn't enough, IMO.
It's entirely possible that Jones could still end up being mediocre even with better skill-position support, but anything we do this offseason to support Jones would also prop up a new QB in 2022 or 2023, so it wouldn't go to waste either way. But the key part of the strategy is that the offense is much more important than an excellent run-stopping defensive line.
I thin the mistake people make is, just throw a draft pick and the problem and it would be solved. I think we all see the mistakes in that thinking..
https://www.thehuddlereport.com/blog/?p=1656
Khyiris Tongo NT BYU......
Link - ( New Window )
If you can make one side of you team dominant, it can make up for the other side weakness. The defense is the stronger said. Add more too it make it stronger and dominant.
Jones is not the key, contrary to popular opinion. You can win with and offense that is league average and a defense in the top 10,see NYG 1998 and 2000.
If you can make one side of you team dominant, it can make up for the other side weakness. The defense is the stronger said. Add more too it make it stronger and dominant.
Jones is not the key, contrary to popular opinion. You can win with and offense that is league average and a defense in the top 10,see NYG 1998 and 2000.
Not in the current NFL. The league wants more scoring, due to fantasy football, safety concerns with hard defensive play, etc. You won’t see teams like the 2000 Ravens anymore. An excellent defense will take you to 8-8 or 9-7, but to win you need playmakers on offense.
Yes, but they are also very strong on the offensive side of the ball. They have Evans, Godwin, and AB at WR. You have to have balance to win. Right now we are very weak offensively.
would have a greater impact on the team than Tomlinson.
Where does Tomlinson rank on the free agent list? - PFF has him a #40 and LW at #19(he is better than #19)
I expect him to be at the $8 mill range.
All things being equal, I would chose the WR over the DT when the team is devoid of WR talent.
You strive to pay a guy like Williams. That's exactly the kind of player we should be paying.
exactly right... this place (BBI) is insane. So many complaints about lack of talent. Then, when we have guys nobody here wants to pay them. Instead, they want to use that money to pay for someone elses' free agent.
Collect players who can make plays and don't worry about the money. Let the front office figure that out. Instead, what you people SHOULD be saying or getting on DG for is his ability to find a way to keep these guys AND bring in the additional players that we need.
No Dave.. you are going to sign Williams and Tomlinson AND you are also going to bring in a #1 WR. Fucking figure it out... that is why YOU are the GM.
Where does Tomlinson rank on the free agent list? - PFF has him a #40 and LW at #19(he is better than #19)
I expect him to be at the $8 mill range.
All things being equal, I would chose the WR over the DT when the team is devoid of WR talent.
Possible. Can we sign both if his number is lower than expected? maybe...but WR will almost definitely be priority I would think.
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but he isn't sacking Russel Wilson 3 times or sacking The Dallas QB in a big game.
You won't say it--try it on for size. Leonard Williams is a great player.
I bet you won't agree.
LW had a great year. Great player? Let's see some more of these 2020 seasons before we he wears the "great crown"..
Which is one of the reasons I'm willing to let LW walk. It's going to be a king's ransom AND it's really anyone's guess if he replicates another year. A year when so much was on the line for him personally.
I am still buying Graham stock and think he's got that Belichick ability to manufacture a pass rush without a stud.
You mean like Vince Wilfork? Or Richard Seymour? Or Chandler Jones? Rosevelt Colvin?
*Not to mention OLBs like McGinest, Vrabel, Colvin, and (Adalius) Thomas on the edge.
Tomlinson is a very good DT, but one of the core components of this scheme is supposedly the ability to find front seven players more readily, so you're freed up to roll the dice more readily.
I'm not sure in reality it's an either or at the moment, but the Giants badly need WR talent. They need to add a WR they believe is a top talent, and still need another to push Slayton, Sterling, etc.
If he signs it, I believe it's $11M. But this is his best chance to cash in, so he almost certainly would not sign it, I think.
Then you let him go out and set the market.
Little downside in this case, as this is precisely the type of guy they can't be getting over their skis on financially.
Hopefully DG/Judge looks to the draft a WR threat or two.
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In comment 15153456 djm said:
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but he isn't sacking Russel Wilson 3 times or sacking The Dallas QB in a big game.
You won't say it--try it on for size. Leonard Williams is a great player.
I bet you won't agree.
LW had a great year. Great player? Let's see some more of these 2020 seasons before we he wears the "great crown"..
Which is one of the reasons I'm willing to let LW walk. It's going to be a king's ransom AND it's really anyone's guess if he replicates another year. A year when so much was on the line for him personally.
I am still buying Graham stock and think he's got that Belichick ability to manufacture a pass rush without a stud.
You mean like Vince Wilfork? Or Richard Seymour? Or Chandler Jones? Rosevelt Colvin?
No, I mean winning the other SBs with Van Noy, Ninkovich, Flowers, Shead, Wise, etc.
I’d argue the incremental benefit of upgrading 900 snaps at corner or inside linebacker is greater.
If I’m the Giants I’d be strongly considering signing Tomlinson instead of Williams, and go strong after linebacker and corner.
The choice is big improvement on O vs moderate diminishment on D. Neither are guaranteed, but it is far easier to improve the O than it is to kill the D.
Some advocate getting the WR in the draft. Doing so means shopping hungry and drafting for desperate need.
Hopefully DG/Judge looks to the draft a WR threat or two.
I absolutely see the logic here. I'd just rather see what both DJ and SB can do with a true #1 WR commanding attention. Rather than relying on SB to hopefully free up a bunch of middling WRs, why not put a double-team-worthy WR out there and force the opposing defense to make difficult decisions every single play, rather than hoping that they're kicking themselves for ignoring Austin Mack or Dante Pettis on a favorable play-action pass?
No doubt SB is talented enough (assuming he comes back at 100% of what he was before) to make an offense better, but I feel like it's wasting him at least a little bit to use him as a decoy to open up subpar receivers. And let's not forget that SB is a mediocre pass blocker until proven otherwise, which means that he presents a liability in a particular area on obvious passing downs, so his ability to incrementally boost the value of the WR corps in those situations is compromised.
There ARE #1 receivers available as of now. If Robinson/Godwin/Golladay are tagged/re-signed, that changes the landscape, and would obviously change my approach if I were managing the offseason strategy. But in the premise within we're working - which is that these WRs are genuine FA targets - I think the best path to improving the team for 2021 and beyond is to re-sign LW and pursue one of the top FA WRs aggressively, then draft a DL and a WR somewhere after the first round (keeping open the possibility of either position as BPA at #11, but I'd be targeting Surtain/Parsons/Farley in particular, with Rousseau potentially in the mix, though I think might be too raw for #11).
If the WRs sign elsewhere, I'd hope that we'd be keeping an open dialogue with DT and could pivot to bringing him back, letting him know that we're open to the possibility of matching any offers he receives on the market (I expect that he'll be a 2nd tier FA, so he'll still be there when the dust settles on the headline guys, which includes the three premier FA WRs, but that's a risk that you'd need to be willing to take - none of this comes without risk).
If everything goes according to plan, we're going into the draft with a #1 WR added to our offense, and still have a DL that includes Williams, Lawrence, Hill (who is NOT a free agent this year, despite DC's suggestion that he is), and then look to bring back Austin Johnson on a reasonable deal, and then add a draft pick and maybe this is the year that McIntosh actually suits up on Sundays.
That, to me, provides the balance that we need to pull the offense out of the doldrums and really shouldn't result in too much decline on the DL - certainly there won't be a lack of resources and assets there even if we let DT walk.
We NEED a better offense. It's a testament to Judge (and Graham) that we even won 6 games with the offense we trotted out there this year. The OL needs to improve and should be in play at #11 (even though I favor the defensive prospects that might be available); DJ needs to improve; SB needs to prove that he's back to full strength and is the game-changer we drafted him to be; Shepard needs to stay healthy; Engram needs to be more consistent. There are so many question marks about the offense that I believe it's foolhardy to rely exclusively on a rookie WR to make the difference.
To give you a real-life example, Denver wasn't exactly working with chumps at RB and their OL situation was better than ours, and yet Jerry Jeudy still wasn't the difference-maker as a rookie that we would need our rookie WR to be if we put all our eggs in that basket. And even if we sign Robinson (my personal preference) and then Chase or Smith falls to us in the draft, are we really going to be complaining about having Robinson and Chase on the outside, Shepard in the slot, Engram at TE, and SB in the backfield? As long as the OL does even an average job in pass pro, that's a good offense and should provide DJ with all the options he needs to develop.
In that scenario, assuming health (which is optimistic), we'll either have a productive offense, or we'll know that DJ isn't the guy. Either outcome has tremendous value as we move forward.
Tomlinson is a very good player. He's not a stud.
I’d argue the incremental benefit of upgrading 900 snaps at corner or inside linebacker is greater.
If I’m the Giants I’d be strongly considering signing Tomlinson instead of Williams, and go strong after linebacker and corner.
I agree with Tomlinson over LW for the affordability factor. And I agree with your approach of investing, instead, in another corner or maybe LB on the D side of the ball.
But I think the bigger dollars need to go to offense first: WR(s) and OL.
The other needs could be addressed in the second and third wave of free agency when teams need to make more cuts to deal with this lowered salary cap.
Look, we are not going to fill every need, not without some serious good fortune in the draft. But the offense is in a DefCon-1 situation. We need to figure out how to add at least 9 more points to really be competitive. That's a lot more important than investing $18-20M in a DT.
I thin the mistake people make is, just throw a draft pick and the problem and it would be solved. I think we all see the mistakes in that thinking..
No he's not.
Link - ( New Window )
Hopefully DG/Judge looks to the draft a WR threat or two.
56, he won't do that. We had him and OBJ and it didn't change anything. I like SB but he's not going to alter the offense to mitigate that
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Ih he walks and Tomlinson walk you're left with LW and Lawrence unless you're banking on a RJ McIntosh to suddenly get healthy. The cupboard would be bare
I thin the mistake people make is, just throw a draft pick and the problem and it would be solved. I think we all see the mistakes in that thinking..
No he's not. Link - ( New Window )
Youre right. Last year. Doesn't change anything
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In comment 15153759 GManinDC said:
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Ih he walks and Tomlinson walk you're left with LW and Lawrence unless you're banking on a RJ McIntosh to suddenly get healthy. The cupboard would be bare
I thin the mistake people make is, just throw a draft pick and the problem and it would be solved. I think we all see the mistakes in that thinking..
No he's not. Link - ( New Window )
Youre right. Last year. Doesn't change anything
Actually, it changes a fundamental point of your argument, but carry on.
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The Giants can operate a high performing defense with Hill, Tomlinson, Lawrence, and a rotational player. We’re talking about replacing 600 snaps.
I’d argue the incremental benefit of upgrading 900 snaps at corner or inside linebacker is greater.
If I’m the Giants I’d be strongly considering signing Tomlinson instead of Williams, and go strong after linebacker and corner.
I agree with Tomlinson over LW for the affordability factor. And I agree with your approach of investing, instead, in another corner or maybe LB on the D side of the ball.
But I think the bigger dollars need to go to offense first: WR(s) and OL.
The other needs could be addressed in the second and third wave of free agency when teams need to make more cuts to deal with this lowered salary cap.
Look, we are not going to fill every need, not without some serious good fortune in the draft. But the offense is in a DefCon-1 situation. We need to figure out how to add at least 9 more points to really be competitive. That's a lot more important than investing $18-20M in a DT.
Do you change your thinking if none of the big 3 WR FA escape their current franchises?
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Keep our own studs. Make that part of the identity too. Reward your high effort, high character, high talent guys.
Tomlinson is a very good player. He's not a stud.
Agreed - I also think he's far more replaceable than LW.
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In comment 15154058 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15153759 GManinDC said:
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Ih he walks and Tomlinson walk you're left with LW and Lawrence unless you're banking on a RJ McIntosh to suddenly get healthy. The cupboard would be bare
I thin the mistake people make is, just throw a draft pick and the problem and it would be solved. I think we all see the mistakes in that thinking..
No he's not. Link - ( New Window )
Youre right. Last year. Doesn't change anything
Actually, it changes a fundamental point of your argument, but carry on.
It actually doesn't because Tomlinson and Hill do not play the same position. So if you remove Tomlinson, who replaces him? Home a draft pick steps up?
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In comment 15154089 GManinDC said:
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In comment 15154058 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15153759 GManinDC said:
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Ih he walks and Tomlinson walk you're left with LW and Lawrence unless you're banking on a RJ McIntosh to suddenly get healthy. The cupboard would be bare
I thin the mistake people make is, just throw a draft pick and the problem and it would be solved. I think we all see the mistakes in that thinking..
No he's not. Link - ( New Window )
Youre right. Last year. Doesn't change anything
Actually, it changes a fundamental point of your argument, but carry on.
It actually doesn't because Tomlinson and Hill do not play the same position. So if you remove Tomlinson, who replaces him? Home a draft pick steps up?
Lawrence replaces him at NT. Hill replaces Lawrence at DE.
Look, you're wrong. Stubbornness doesn't change that. Maybe you can pretend some other players are FAs when they're not.
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In comment 15154020 christian said:
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The Giants can operate a high performing defense with Hill, Tomlinson, Lawrence, and a rotational player. We’re talking about replacing 600 snaps.
I’d argue the incremental benefit of upgrading 900 snaps at corner or inside linebacker is greater.
If I’m the Giants I’d be strongly considering signing Tomlinson instead of Williams, and go strong after linebacker and corner.
I agree with Tomlinson over LW for the affordability factor. And I agree with your approach of investing, instead, in another corner or maybe LB on the D side of the ball.
But I think the bigger dollars need to go to offense first: WR(s) and OL.
The other needs could be addressed in the second and third wave of free agency when teams need to make more cuts to deal with this lowered salary cap.
Look, we are not going to fill every need, not without some serious good fortune in the draft. But the offense is in a DefCon-1 situation. We need to figure out how to add at least 9 more points to really be competitive. That's a lot more important than investing $18-20M in a DT.
Do you change your thinking if none of the big 3 WR FA escape their current franchises?
Maybe yes. Because signing Davis or Samuel will be much cheaper. Then you probably need to still go WR round 1.
As an aside, the money that would take to re-sign Tomlinson, will probably not buy the best feee agent WEs.
I think it's pretty clear that WRs make a pretty immediate impact on the game in today's NFL and you'll get good bang for your buck there.
I'd rather keep LW and go this route for sure.
So what is your number? (Mine is $10-11mm for Tomlinson.)
The offense is much more broken than the defense. The Williams trade gives the Giants the flexibility to let Tomlinson walk.
I'd be very careful in FA this off-season. Sign LW for a fair amount, if they can't try and sign LT for a fair amount (less than LW).
If I was looking to sign anyone in FA - I'd be looking for blocking TEs, fullback, or maybe CB depth
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don't re-sign LW and try to sign a few second tier WRs (either early or in the second or third wave after cuts) and target a quality G or C.
Too many holes to fill if we sign LW, especially with so much riding on Jones this year...
I still just lose my mind when I see takes like this. You're telling me a team that has few impact players and a team that doesn't even pay many impact [player salaries at all, Martinez and Bradbury and maybe Zietler being the lone exceptions, now cannot afford to pay an impact 3/4 DE? Solider aint gonna be here much longer and neither will the contract. Same with Zietler. We can't pay 3-4 defensive impact players?
It's BW an admitted WFT can. He's a troll. Just ignore what he writes.
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In comment 15154099 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15154089 GManinDC said:
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In comment 15154058 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15153759 GManinDC said:
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Ih he walks and Tomlinson walk you're left with LW and Lawrence unless you're banking on a RJ McIntosh to suddenly get healthy. The cupboard would be bare
I thin the mistake people make is, just throw a draft pick and the problem and it would be solved. I think we all see the mistakes in that thinking..
No he's not. Link - ( New Window )
Youre right. Last year. Doesn't change anything
Actually, it changes a fundamental point of your argument, but carry on.
It actually doesn't because Tomlinson and Hill do not play the same position. So if you remove Tomlinson, who replaces him? Home a draft pick steps up?
Lawrence replaces him at NT. Hill replaces Lawrence at DE.
Look, you're wrong. Stubbornness doesn't change that. Maybe you can pretend some other players are FAs when they're not.
What am I wrong about?. I am disagreeing with this part of our assesment. It's called an opinion. I already acknowledged my mistake with Hill:
If everything goes according to plan, we're going into the draft with a #1 WR added to our offense, and still have a DL that includes Williams, Lawrence, Hill (who is NOT a free agent this year, despite DC's suggestion that he is), and then look to bring back Austin Johnson on a reasonable deal, and then add a draft pick and maybe this is the year that McIntosh actually suits up on Sundays.
That, to me, provides the balance that we need to pull the offense out of the doldrums and really shouldn't result in too much decline on the DL - certainly there won't be a lack of resources and assets there even if we let DT walk.
Your option is to move the the defense around and move Lawrence to NT, put Hill at DE, hope to McIntosh, plays and hope to resign Austin Johnson? How long do you think it's going to take to get them guys working together?. Half a season?.
And you're telling me that is not going to lead to a decline?. My point as was, you can let LW walk and put the resource toward an Edge or pass rushing LB. I think the loss of LW can be mitigated more simply by putting Hill back at LW (Where he had 5 sacks as a rookie) position and sign a Edge.