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Is CB really a critical need??

Grizz99 : 2/16/2021 12:24 pm
it seem that the loss of Andre Baker and the anticipated loss of Sam Beale as the release of Ballantine makes this an area of critical need. And the fact that either/or Surtain, Caleb Farley or Horn will be there might make that pick as inevitable as its needed and appropriate..
But I wonder...
There's always the chance (even if remote) that Isaac Yiadom or a Chris Williamson will step forward. I even - the broad "anti" sentiments notwithstanding - have hopes for Beal.
They didn't get the full affect of McKinney last year. they have an anticipated much improved 2nd. year Holmes for the slot and maybe more. Peppers and McKinney should be the most talented combo in years. Versatile too, with almost hybrid Linebackers ability.
Then there's still Logan Ryan (who was a corner for most of his career) and Julian Love who, stats notwithstanding, I think is a "football player" - no matter where you place him.
That might be an effective melange made better by a year's experience together and an increased pass rush.
My very tentative conclusion is (based on insufficient knowledge and a faulty intuition, IE, like most of us here LOL), I want the BPA.
I think there's going to be an impact player available and I don't care what position it's at.
I remember 2014 and OBJ, Aaron Donald and Zack Martin...three men who were potential HOf'er's sat there long after Blake Bortles, Sammy Watkins and a few other disappointments were gone. That was with the 12th pick and we're told history has a way of repeating itself.
Of course, there's nothing that says one of those cornerbacks won't be the BPA, but I hope that's the imperative..... BPA all the way...
Wondering if anyone else sees it that way....









Yes  
Beer Man : 2/16/2021 12:29 pm : link
But it can be elevated somewhat by improving the pass rush
Yes. We have one quality starting CB on this team in Bradberry  
jlukes : 2/16/2021 12:30 pm : link
And if you pay attention on how this defense is being built it is big DLs, situational pass rushers, good safeties and good corners

Right now we have zero corner depth
What do you mean by critical?  
George from PA : 2/16/2021 12:35 pm : link
Bradberry is a great corner....plus the Giants have several decent DBs.

So critical no.....but needed Yes.

The Giants defense played top 10-15 ....if we want top 5

They need another corner
Yes, none of the CB’s you mention  
Section331 : 2/16/2021 12:36 pm : link
are worthy of being the #2 corner. Yiadom played OK, but Graham was forced to play a lot of zone to protect him. And the fact that he was starting over Logan Ryan and Julian Love tells you all about their abilities at CB.

Logan Ryan played CB before NYG traded for Yiadom, and he was awful. He’s a good safety, he needs to stay there. We need to upgrade the #2 CB spot BADLY.
Not Sure About 'Critical'  
Trainmaster : 2/16/2021 12:36 pm : link
but definitely an important area of need. Graham was able to mostly "scheme around" the weakness at the 2nd corner position, but having a complimentary corner across from Bradberry will give Graham a lot more blitz and coverage options.

Unless the coaching staff believes Love can at least somewhat adequately fill the 2nd corner spot, another corner should be picked within the first 3 Giants picks.

If the top WRs/TE and Edge/LB are gone when the Giants pick, I wouldn't be upset if they draft Surtain or Farley.

Critical, probably not as  
section125 : 2/16/2021 12:43 pm : link
much as WR and ER. But if at #11 a lockdown CB is there and he is BPA you take him and do not look back.
NYG need to lock down the other boundary Corner spot.  
Jimmy Googs : 2/16/2021 12:46 pm : link
Not so desperate/critical that it has to be at #11 if the grades don't make it versus other players in the Giants top tier.

Do need to come out of either free agency or day 2 of the draft with another Cornerback though.

Yiadom, Love and the others are backups. While you may not have seen them get lit up last season, they did indeed get targeted and the coaches played variations/schemes that were less aggressive than they wanted to deal with it.
its critical  
UConn4523 : 2/16/2021 12:50 pm : link
nothing wrong with trying to make a strength even better. That has a snowball effect on more coverage sacks, more 3rd and longs, etc. It would make needing an elite ER less of a need (we still need an ER, but this would only help our efforts).
Giants are forced to play zone because of lack of a 2nd CB  
US1 Giants : 2/16/2021 12:54 pm : link
Graham has a history of playing man to man much more but could not do so with the Giants personnel. A second quality corner would help the Giants defense to be multiple.
Chris Williamson is an Atlanta Falcons player  
Mark in ATL : 2/16/2021 1:00 pm : link
He was released by the Giants before the end of the season
Trying to fix the offense...  
bw in dc : 2/16/2021 1:05 pm : link
is critical.

Bolstering the corner position is always a good idea, but we are in a good position having a top five corner in Bradberry who really doesn't need help. So that provides flexibility in the overall coverage schemes.

I've cooled on Surtain, but I could live with Farley if that's the move at #11. The more I watch him the more I think he's the best corner in this draft.
For sure  
MotownGIANTS : 2/16/2021 1:08 pm : link
getting a #2 CB completes the 2ndary (11th pick looks to be the path). Get the Edge fixed up and retain the DT combo and more competition at LB (late pick and 2 wave of FA possibly). Then you can focus on offense more getting the offensive playmakers WR, consistent TE play then RB and OL depth.

Can't do it all in 1 season...but it looks like we can get the #1WR and #2CB spots in a lot better place this year. Also possibly the edge while confirming the middle of the defense for a few years.

The TE spot looks like it will not be this year more stop-gap material at best. Unless something unforeseen happens. Hopefully the next OL churn gets us a diamond in the rough similar to Gates and/or Peart.
Playing zone...  
Brown_Hornet : 2/16/2021 1:10 pm : link
...and blitzing are not mutually exclusive.
RE: Trying to fix the offense...  
Section331 : 2/16/2021 1:12 pm : link
In comment 15154290 bw in dc said:
Quote:
is critical.

Bolstering the corner position is always a good idea, but we are in a good position having a top five corner in Bradberry who really doesn't need help. So that provides flexibility in the overall coverage schemes.

I've cooled on Surtain, but I could live with Farley if that's the move at #11. The more I watch him the more I think he's the best corner in this draft.


Brad berry is good, but even he can’t cover both sides of the field at the same time. The fact is that we have only one CB we can trust in man coverage, that makes the #2 CB a critical need. Yes, more play makers on offense is too, but we can address both at the same time.
RE: RE: Trying to fix the offense...  
bw in dc : 2/16/2021 1:25 pm : link
In comment 15154300 Section331 said:
Quote:
In comment 15154290 bw in dc said:


Quote:


is critical.

Bolstering the corner position is always a good idea, but we are in a good position having a top five corner in Bradberry who really doesn't need help. So that provides flexibility in the overall coverage schemes.

I've cooled on Surtain, but I could live with Farley if that's the move at #11. The more I watch him the more I think he's the best corner in this draft.



Brad berry is good, but even he can’t cover both sides of the field at the same time. The fact is that we have only one CB we can trust in man coverage, that makes the #2 CB a critical need. Yes, more play makers on offense is too, but we can address both at the same time.


We averaged 17ppg. To really compete in today's NFL we probably need to be at 26-27ppg.

This year, 9 of the top 10 teams in scoring offense made the playoffs this year. The ranges were 28ppg to 32ppg.

Last year, it was the same - 9 out of top 10 teams in scoring made the playoffs. The ranges were 25ppg to 33ppg.

So we need to find another 9-10 ppg. Getting SB back isn't going to close that gap, and who knows whether he'll be the same player. That's where the resources need to go. And it could become a real quandary if Jones isn't the right guy to create those points. But we have to go all in to see.

there's no one answer to this...  
SirYesSir : 2/16/2021 1:30 pm : link
if we go to war next year with Bradbury, with Holmes in the slot, and with Peppers, Ryan, Love and McKinney all contributing it's a pretty solid defensive backfield even with Yiadom at cb2.

But yeah, adding a stud young corner (and remember Bradbury will be 28 next season I think) would certainly be a good thing moving forward.

the GM has to fit the pieces together. No single position in the draft is a "must"
Not critical but yes a need and if need meets BPA you take them  
rasbutant : 2/16/2021 1:35 pm : link
I personally don't want to enter the draft with this need though. I'm looking at mid-level veteran talent. Someone not going to break the bank, but more than a Ryan Lewis or Ross Cockrell type. I've been a big fan of Jason Verrett's since I proclaimed him a top 10 pick, I'm still not giving up on the dream of him being a Giant. There are others that interest me, but without knowing the price tag it is hard to predict. But I'm shopping in the 4M-10M range.

One other point, Bradberry is only with us for 2 more years. It is not too early to start thinking about his replacement.
Also: The draft is about the future.  
81_Great_Dane : 2/16/2021 1:59 pm : link
It isn't just what you have today, it's what you expect to have in 2-3 years.

"Critical" for the 2021 roster? Maybe not. Critical to acquire players with an eye toward 2022-2025? Yes, I think so. But if they only have six picks, there's only so much they can do through the draft. It really would be a good year to trade down in the 2nd and/or 3rd to get some extra picks.

DG wasn't wrong to stock up on corners, but he got some of the wrong guys. Ryan and Bradberry, good. Holmes, good. Baker, Beal, bad. That left the position thin. Back to the drawing board.
Graham  
Toth029 : 2/16/2021 2:04 pm : link
Playing Love at CB in the final Week was a nice audition. I think he may stick at CB/S like Ryan and do what's asked. In fact, it pays in to what Graham and Judhe both love: versatility.

I think they definitely address CB, but I see it happening in the draft than FA.
A  
AcidTest : 2/16/2021 2:04 pm : link
#2 CB is a critical need. This is a passing league, and Bradberry can get hurt. I am fine with Surtain or Farley at #11.

It really sucks that none of the "B's" worked out. We've spent a ton of draft picks on CBs with almost no results.
...  
christian : 2/16/2021 2:06 pm : link
The Giants have several decent corners? The Giants have Bradberry and Holmes. Beyond that, they have replacement level players.

I expect the Giants to prioritize corner in a big way.
Always  
bronxct1 : 2/16/2021 2:26 pm : link
CB is always a critical need. It's a position where you need to always look to improve and bolster. At any point, you may be playing four of them at the same time. Injuries at any spot of the depth chart can cause issues.
It’s a need  
jeff57 : 2/16/2021 2:47 pm : link
I don’t know how big. Don’t know if Holmes is the answer at slot corner and whether Ryan can still be an every down corner.
If they don’t pick up a CB in FA  
eric2425ny : 2/16/2021 3:17 pm : link
I can see one being taken in the first three rounds to compete with Yiadom and Love for the #2 CB role.
of course it is  
bc4life : 2/16/2021 4:00 pm : link
one starter and perhaps our slot corner of the future. need another one starter or 3rd CB quality.
Good to have, yes ....  
Manny in CA : 2/16/2021 4:05 pm : link
But critical, no.

Ernie Accorsi (who I never agreed much with) said it best - "you never have enough pass rushers"; then the Gettleman Mantra - "Run, stop the run, RUSH the passer"
RE: Yes, none of the CB’s you mention  
Matt M. : 2/16/2021 4:08 pm : link
In comment 15154269 Section331 said:
Quote:
are worthy of being the #2 corner. Yiadom played OK, but Graham was forced to play a lot of zone to protect him. And the fact that he was starting over Logan Ryan and Julian Love tells you all about their abilities at CB.

Logan Ryan played CB before NYG traded for Yiadom, and he was awful. He’s a good safety, he needs to stay there. We need to upgrade the #2 CB spot BADLY.
Does it though? Love was moved to S his rookie year without really practicing at either position first. And, he stayed there. Last year, he played most of the year at S. He didn't really play CB until the end of the year out of need. After having even a week of practice, he looked much better there than he had in spots. Can that translate moving forward? I don't know, but he played CB in ND and was pretty good. I'd like to see him at least compete for the CB2 spot.

Ryan was signed out of need at S. Even though he is primarily a CB, he was signed for versatility and and a big hole at S. Could he still play at a high level at CB2 or slot? Again, a very good question. Could we see some combo of Love and Ryan opposite Bradberry? Maybe. But, it is also likely we see neither. That's what makes this off season so crazy and important for us. We have major questions to answer.
RE: Good to have, yes ....  
fireitup77 : 2/16/2021 4:12 pm : link
In comment 15154569 Manny in CA said:
Quote:
But critical, no.

Ernie Accorsi (who I never agreed much with) said it best - "you never have enough pass rushers"; then the Gettleman Mantra - "Run, stop the run, RUSH the passer"


But our coaching staff thinks different. Stop the run and cover. Get pressure up the middle and with scheme.

Another cb is crucial to allow Graham to run the defense that he wants. Like Sy said, build an identity. We are one cb away from having a top secondary. Start there, re-sign LW and find another 3 down mlb and this defense becomes a top unit.
RE: RE: Good to have, yes ....  
Matt M. : 2/16/2021 4:18 pm : link
In comment 15154576 fireitup77 said:
Quote:
In comment 15154569 Manny in CA said:


Quote:


But critical, no.

Ernie Accorsi (who I never agreed much with) said it best - "you never have enough pass rushers"; then the Gettleman Mantra - "Run, stop the run, RUSH the passer"



But our coaching staff thinks different. Stop the run and cover. Get pressure up the middle and with scheme.

Another cb is crucial to allow Graham to run the defense that he wants. Like Sy said, build an identity. We are one cb away from having a top secondary. Start there, re-sign LW and find another 3 down mlb and this defense becomes a top unit.
I'm very high on the prospects for the secondary. But, i also think it's premature to talk about top secondary with just another CB. Peppers has to duplicate a career year. McKinney has to play a whole season how we expect (and saw flashes of down the stretch). Ryan has to continue to play at a good to very good level. Then is Love a CB? A S? It's not just CB2. It's slot and depth. There are questions that need to be answered. The only real given in the secondary is Bradberry.
RE: RE: Good to have, yes ....  
Angel Eyes : 2/16/2021 4:30 pm : link
In comment 15154576 fireitup77 said:
Quote:
In comment 15154569 Manny in CA said:


Quote:


But critical, no.

Ernie Accorsi (who I never agreed much with) said it best - "you never have enough pass rushers"; then the Gettleman Mantra - "Run, stop the run, RUSH the passer"



But our coaching staff thinks different. Stop the run and cover. Get pressure up the middle and with scheme.

Another cb is crucial to allow Graham to run the defense that he wants. Like Sy said, build an identity. We are one cb away from having a top secondary. Start there, re-sign LW and find another 3 down mlb and this defense becomes a top unit.

You can’t have inside pressure without consistent edge rush. The Cardinals, Browns, and Ravens all embarrassed us when they could block Lawrence, Tomlinson, and Williams and the quarterback could target the open receiver. Playing contain worked as well as a hole in the head.
RE: RE: RE: Good to have, yes ....  
fireitup77 : 2/16/2021 4:53 pm : link
In comment 15154600 Angel Eyes said:
Quote:
In comment 15154576 fireitup77 said:


Quote:


In comment 15154569 Manny in CA said:


Quote:


But critical, no.

Ernie Accorsi (who I never agreed much with) said it best - "you never have enough pass rushers"; then the Gettleman Mantra - "Run, stop the run, RUSH the passer"



But our coaching staff thinks different. Stop the run and cover. Get pressure up the middle and with scheme.

Another cb is crucial to allow Graham to run the defense that he wants. Like Sy said, build an identity. We are one cb away from having a top secondary. Start there, re-sign LW and find another 3 down mlb and this defense becomes a top unit.


You can’t have inside pressure without consistent edge rush. The Cardinals, Browns, and Ravens all embarrassed us when they could block Lawrence, Tomlinson, and Williams and the quarterback could target the open receiver. Playing contain worked as well as a hole in the head.


I guess you missed the part about being able to scheme a rush when you can play man coverage. It's what Judge and Graham learned in NE. Strong up the middle and cover. Watch out scheme from last year and NE's the last decade or so. Half the time the outside guys don't even rush. They get to the same depth as the qb and contain. With the ability to play man you can bring more people on the inside then they could block. But the edge guys need to keep the qb in the pocket.
Graham...  
Brown_Hornet : 2/16/2021 4:57 pm : link
...can scheme pressure and run zone at the same time.

I'm not suggesting that CB is or is not a need. Just seen the comments about pushing the pocket and coverage meaning that it must be man coverage...it does not have to be man coverage.
it's critical yes  
GiantsFan84 : 2/16/2021 5:06 pm : link
as are QB, WR, OT, OG, LB, TE
RE: RE: RE: RE: Good to have, yes ....  
Angel Eyes : 2/16/2021 5:43 pm : link
In comment 15154620 fireitup77 said:
Quote:
In comment 15154600 Angel Eyes said:


Quote:


In comment 15154576 fireitup77 said:


Quote:


In comment 15154569 Manny in CA said:


Quote:


But critical, no.

Ernie Accorsi (who I never agreed much with) said it best - "you never have enough pass rushers"; then the Gettleman Mantra - "Run, stop the run, RUSH the passer"



But our coaching staff thinks different. Stop the run and cover. Get pressure up the middle and with scheme.

Another cb is crucial to allow Graham to run the defense that he wants. Like Sy said, build an identity. We are one cb away from having a top secondary. Start there, re-sign LW and find another 3 down mlb and this defense becomes a top unit.


You can’t have inside pressure without consistent edge rush. The Cardinals, Browns, and Ravens all embarrassed us when they could block Lawrence, Tomlinson, and Williams and the quarterback could target the open receiver. Playing contain worked as well as a hole in the head.



I guess you missed the part about being able to scheme a rush when you can play man coverage. It's what Judge and Graham learned in NE. Strong up the middle and cover. Watch out scheme from last year and NE's the last decade or so. Half the time the outside guys don't even rush. They get to the same depth as the qb and contain. With the ability to play man you can bring more people on the inside then they could block. But the edge guys need to keep the qb in the pocket.

Two things: First, I don’t believe in the concept of the edge guys keeping the quarterback in the pocket. The Giants don’t do well without a strong edge guy backed by an interior lineman or two. We have the latter, let’s get a strong edge. Two, I think we saw the limit to what the defense can do with keeping the quarterback in the pocket with the games like the ones I mentioned where the edge played contain and the quarterback picked us apart.
I like the use of the term...  
DonQuixote : 2/16/2021 6:47 pm : link
...melange.

Maybe the melange will rise to the occasion.
I wouldn't mind a CB at 11  
LeonBright45 : 2/16/2021 11:23 pm : link
I would hope that we can evaluate Surtain, Farley, & Horn, who would at this point appear to be the likely candidates to possibly be available at 11 and worth the pic, without any bias. In other words, if Farley or Horn are better prospects than Surtain I would hope that we don't just go with the Alabama guy for the sake of familiarity or an inside endorsement.

I am not going to call CB a critical need. Ryan and Love can help outside. Holmes very well could be more than just a slot corner. Some of our young DBs like Williams, Hartage, & Harper are guys who could mature and help us. We still have Yiadom and Lewis who might improve.

But, most of all because we do still have Sam Beal and Quincy Wilson on the roster. If the Giants hate Sam Beal so much they probably would've cut him by now, but until they do I will hope that he is ready to compete for the starting RCB spot.

Quincy Wilson is a former 2nd round pick out of Florida. If he is healthy and ready to go he could be our starting RCB. I am hoping that all of these guys are healthy and ready to compete.
Scheme all you want ...  
Manny in CA : 2/17/2021 1:03 am : link

But at-the-end-of-the-day, if you give the opposing QB all day to find open receiver(s), it's as easy as spearing fish in a bathtub.
What about a 2nd round option like Eric Stokes  
cosmicj : 2/17/2021 6:47 am : link
Out of UGA?
They need another starting caliber boundary corner  
JonC : 2/17/2021 11:36 am : link
especially given the current rules and hot schemes, you literally need four to five solid or better corners.

Does anyone really want to repeat the 2020 season with the players opposite Bradberry? Not me, CB at #11 would be a sound investment in TALENT which the Giants badly need (everywhere).
You can't simply rely on Bradberry to always be a top 5-ish CB  
Ten Ton Hammer : 2/17/2021 11:44 am : link
.I would say it certainly is a need. If you're not going to spend money to make the pass rush better then you're going to be beat with nobody at CB2
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