[Article Linked Below]
Two Quotes of Note from the Article:
""So far away from [the playoff teams] right now, it's not even close," a league source with knowledge of the Giants' roster recently told ESPN."
"Jones is their guy, multiple team and league sources reiterated to ESPN over the past few weeks. And while the organization's brass, from the top down, believes Jones has what it takes to be a successful upper-echelon quarterback, they are knowingly taking this leap of faith with their fingers crossed after inconsistent results during his first two professional seasons."
After coming close to making the playoffs this past season, many Giants fans have been given the false sense that the team is close to contending. Lets face the facts, if the Cowboys or Eagles had met their expectations for this season and been winning teams, we would have been talking about a last place football team that was nowhere near contention. They had a nice feel good winning streak in the second half, but this team is still nowhere close. Here is where the team stands as of now:
Quarterback: I feel good about Jones but we certainly haven't had the necessary results so far. Regardless of whether you think Jones is a franchise quarterback he is the only option the team has going into next season. According to Mel Kiper, there aren't any quarterbacks in this draft that are better than Jones and signing a veteran would limit their ability to keep other key pieces in place. They have to ride it out with Jones in 2021, anyone who thinks otherwise is living in a fantasy world.
Runningback: Great RB who can't stay healthy. Gallman is decent.
Recievers: One of the worst receiving crews in the league. They couldn't get seperation and didn't do much after the catch.
Tight End: Evan Engram. Nothing more needs be said.
Offensive Line: Last season Jones was pressured on 30.3% of dropbacks, the fourth most in the NFL. Thomas played terribly for much of the season but improved as the year went on. He was also playing hurt. He did, however, give up the most sacks by any tackle in the NFL. It is not a given he will develop into a solid starter as many people assume, look at previous drafts of high pick offensive linemen, probably about half of them fail. Personally, I am hopefull for Thomas and think he will improve. Gates was pretty decent as the year went on. He could be a piece for the future, although I think he should of stayed at tackle. Peart is a developmental piece, hopefully he could pan out. Lemieux was abysmal. A fifth round pick gaurd who had looked absolutely awful as a rookie dosen't project well for the future. Hernandez looks to have stalled out after a good rookie year. Overall, this is a bottom five unit that dosen't have a single certain piece for the future on it. Hopefully these guys pan out but the idea that these guys will suddenly all develop into pro bowlers isin't "optimistic", it is delusional.
D-Line: Great unit, hopefully Williams and Tomlinson stay.
Linebackers: Blake Martinez was great but they have no edge rushers.
Secondary: I think this is a damn good unit. Bradberry was great and I thought Ryan was excellent as well. Peppers has been solid for a while and I think McKinney will develop well.
Looking over this roster, it is clear that Gettleman has failed during his three years as GM. He has not brought this roster any closer to contention than the day that he got the job. Gettleman should have been held accountable, this roster is a disaster. Gettleman's "Hog Mollies" look more like the "Hog Follies". They should have brought in a GM that had closer ties to Judge, revamped their scouting department, and embraced analytics to a greater extent. The issue of medeling by Mara seems to play a role as well but from the outside it is not clear how much he meddles. I hope this team turns it around, but don't be disappointed when they go 6-10 again next season.
Far from Super Bowl ready, New York Giants continue quest to rebuild - (
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However, on game day. they almost always in the game until the 4th quarter. They would tease you with close games that seemed to get away from them. I always thought they were close, and that they were better than their record.
They were not. Yes they had a decent defense. They had a terrible receivers, a poor offensive line, and were ineffective at QB... Sound familiar?
They were never close close until the 80s came.
Opposing teams often didn't bring their A game. However, when they found the game competitive in the 4th, they usually got their act together and put the Giants away. When you realize that good team will beat you as long as they have focus, then you realize that you are not a good team. Being competitive, playing in close games, is still just a tease. Those things really mean nothing. Its only wen those games regularly start turning into wins.
There may be some signs of improvement, but really the Giants are still wandering in the wilderness of suckitude.
What record did Tampa Bay finish with last ye .....
forget it. These a-holes do not know what they are talking about.
Nailed it!
You describe our defense as “better than awful but not really much above average”? They were top 10 in almost every major category despite the offenses inability to score and hold the ball for long durations of time.
I think the Giants defense was well above average and could have been even better if the offense did anything at all.
NT Tomlinson = Vea (both good, it's a wash)
Really not sure about either of these.
You’re not sure if Williams is better than 34 year old Suh? This is another example of why you simply cannot be taken seriously. Not even you believe half the shit you post
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of all the things written about the Giants this seems bizarre to really criticize. We were 6-10, with our 4 of our 6 victories coming from our crappy division. The other was against the Bengals and one good win agains the Seahawks (who let's face it really were an average team). Besides, Russell Wilson we did not beat any really good qbs. Our offense was awful--our defense was better than awful, but not really much above average. That is not to say we are not close to the playoffs given our division, but with Dak coming back, the WFT looking to improve their QB situation, I think we go into the year probably third in talent in our division. So, yeah, I am not sure we are really close to a playoff team. Whether or not Jordan is doing this to get clicks, which he probably is, the truth is not so far off on this one. I could see us being worse than 6-10 next year and I could see us being slightly better--but by no means are we close.
You describe our defense as “better than awful but not really much above average”? They were top 10 in almost every major category despite the offenses inability to score and hold the ball for long durations of time.
I think the Giants defense was well above average and could have been even better if the offense did anything at all.
The Giants were 19th in Defensive DVOA, which is the equalizer of all stats--that is below average. I will stand by my comment "better than awful but not really much above average"
IMO if we had an average defense we'd be a 3 or 4 win team.
IMO if we had an average defense we'd be a 3 or 4 win team.
I thought our defense had some good games--the Rams game, the Seahawks game, the Bengals game, but overall I thought it was just a little above average and I think the most reliable stat, DVOA dovetails with that assessment. I am willing to agree to disagree and hope you are right about what it means going forward as opposed to my belief.
We’re getting there. Getting where? We didn’t win the worst division in football. A division, by the way, may thought was the worst division in decades of NFL history. Some even went as far as to say the worst division ever. And, we aren’t even the best team in the worst division of the NFL. But, we’re getting there. Getting where? If the NFC east is historically horrible again next year, we might be able to win the division with an over achieving 8-8 record? But we’re getting there. Getting where? A wild card blow out? Okay, sure, I’ll take that over another 6-10 season.
Lowered expectations. Over the past five years the Giants are among the worst three teams in the NFL. But we’re getting there! You know where we’re getting? We’re getting to be the Jets.
I don’t take umbrage with anything Raanan wrote. But the OPs analysis is way too harsh in grading ATs season and his potential. I think of all the Getty draft choices, AT is the least to worry about. He got better as the season went on and he looks like a legit LT1 with a bright future.
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and a lot of our grade has to do with the fact that we didn't have an edge rusher coupled with never playing with the lead. If you watched the games and felt "average" describe that production than I don't know what to tell you.
IMO if we had an average defense we'd be a 3 or 4 win team.
I thought our defense had some good games--the Rams game, the Seahawks game, the Bengals game, but overall I thought it was just a little above average and I think the most reliable stat, DVOA dovetails with that assessment. I am willing to agree to disagree and hope you are right about what it means going forward as opposed to my belief.
I work in predictive data analysis, and I really like Football Outsiders, so I’m sympathetic to the measurements. DVOA is a good measure, but is based largely on yards and first downs as leading indicators.
The Giants defense was clearly a bend don’t break group last year. They were 1 one of 4 team to allow 3+ mins a drive and faced the 4th fewest drives overall. Now, that might not be sustainable or it might be luck. But the indicators didn’t line up with the output. The Giants didn’t give up a lot points, which ultimately is the point.
Would I bank on repeating that approach? No, but I’d tackle the problem on the other side of the ball. Graham can be a lot more aggressive if he knows the Giants have a puncher’s chance of breaking 20 points from time to time.
I am obviously not as bullish as most about the defense, but if I understand your first half and second half correctly (meaning in the game not the first and second half of the season), I would think the defense has a valid excuse of falling apart because they spent so much time on the field due to our inept offense. For instance, in the Cardinals game, our defense made some really nice stops early on and then it just got ridiculous with our offense that they just wore down. Even in a total failure game such as the Niners, the defense made some early stops, it just fell apart because the offense could not do a thing.
What NFL are you watching to think the Giants "aren't close" to being a Playoff team?
The Giants will be good this coming season. For the first time in a long time, I am confident in that.
The Giants will be good this coming season. For the first time in a long time, I am confident in that.
That is quite a lucky first paragraph...
I don't think we can duplicate the 2020 defense without an upgrade somewhere, but it won't matter either way if we can sustain drives and score more points (and if we do this the defense will be more efficient).
And so what? Had the Eagles won, the Giants would have been the first team to get in at 6-10. Is that the bar? Sneak in and hope they get lucky?
The Giants need upgrades to several units before they be considered good enough to contend. Same as last year.
And so what? Had the Eagles won, the Giants would have been the first team to get in at 6-10. Is that the bar? Sneak in and hope they get lucky?
The Giants need upgrades to several units before they be considered good enough to contend. Same as last year.
Yeah why not? Jones' production was about as minimal as you can get over the games he played in 2020, and we saw in 2019 he can produce, so its reasonable to assume he and the offense can get better.
I know that puts a damper on the doom and gloom of this site but it isn't some far fetched fantasy some make it seem. The playoff turnover is what, 45% each year?
You can keep posting it, and I can say that 24 passing TD's in 2020 would have likely put us in the playoffs regardless of his AY/A.
Are we also assuming 7 wins takes the division again in 2021? Is our QB strategy now to hope the other teams are also poor?
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is toilet water. Does that sound like a team "close to the playoffs"?
And so what? Had the Eagles won, the Giants would have been the first team to get in at 6-10. Is that the bar? Sneak in and hope they get lucky?
The Giants need upgrades to several units before they be considered good enough to contend. Same as last year.
Yeah why not? Jones' production was about as minimal as you can get over the games he played in 2020, and we saw in 2019 he can produce, so its reasonable to assume he and the offense can get better.
I know that puts a damper on the doom and gloom of this site but it isn't some far fetched fantasy some make it seem. The playoff turnover is what, 45% each year?
It’s also “reasonable to assume” he won’t produce, if we’re just wishing and hoping. By the same logic, it’s reasonable to assume the defense will be worse. But that’s where we are: “If only these five things work out on the Giants favor, we could be in the hunt!” Its based on nothing.
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In comment 15155083 UConn4523 said:
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and a lot of our grade has to do with the fact that we didn't have an edge rusher coupled with never playing with the lead. If you watched the games and felt "average" describe that production than I don't know what to tell you.
IMO if we had an average defense we'd be a 3 or 4 win team.
I thought our defense had some good games--the Rams game, the Seahawks game, the Bengals game, but overall I thought it was just a little above average and I think the most reliable stat, DVOA dovetails with that assessment. I am willing to agree to disagree and hope you are right about what it means going forward as opposed to my belief.
I work in predictive data analysis, and I really like Football Outsiders, so I’m sympathetic to the measurements. DVOA is a good measure, but is based largely on yards and first downs as leading indicators.
The Giants defense was clearly a bend don’t break group last year. They were 1 one of 4 team to allow 3+ mins a drive and faced the 4th fewest drives overall. Now, that might not be sustainable or it might be luck. But the indicators didn’t line up with the output. The Giants didn’t give up a lot points, which ultimately is the point.
Would I bank on repeating that approach? No, but I’d tackle the problem on the other side of the ball. Graham can be a lot more aggressive if he knows the Giants have a puncher’s chance of breaking 20 points from time to time.
I'm with you!
I've always liked Football Outsiders and the DVOA stat. I agree that it isn't perfect. I remember them giving the Giants really bad grades in 2007. I had a back and forth with Aaron in the comments more than once that year. As a fan I could see that the Giants had the team, but were maddeningly inconsistent. While Aaron argued that they were consistently not good. He tried to claim that they were one of the worst playoff teams ever. And continued on that rant calling that team a fluke even after Super Bowl win. I bring that up to highlight the fact that DVOA isn't the end all and be all. However, I think it generally a fairly accurate statistic. It fails when teams are learning to overcome inconsistency.
Are we also assuming 7 wins takes the division again in 2021? Is our QB strategy now to hope the other teams are also poor?
We can go back and forth on this all day. 2021 needs to happen, until then I'm hoping Jones will play better and you will continue to beat the drum that he likely wont. Round and round and round and round we go. To what end I would ask but I know there isn't an end, you enjoy this too much.
On a side note I fully support upgrading the QB position if there's a reasonable solution. Until then i'm going to assume Jones is our 2021 QB and hope that a close to full strength Barkley, another weapon via draft or FA, and continued improvements to the OL will help him perform better.
Call that whatever you want.
I'm rooting for Jones to turn it around, so are you. Far out.
I'm rooting for Jones to turn it around, so are you. Far out.
I've discussed what's happened/happening. I even said I'm down for an upgrade at QB if there was a plausible/reasonable way to do this - what more is there to say?
So unless you are uncovering things I don't already know (you aren't, in fact you keep saying the same things over and over) nothing productive is happening on either end. I think Jones will be better in 2021 (i've listed why), you apparently don't - that's cool. Seems like that's about it on this discussion unless there info only you are privy to and purposely withholding?
Also, pining for Watson is also a hope and a wish, btw.
Every year there are cries that results in make some sweeping change in the staff to feel better about the Giants.
theres a lot of truth to this... They ran the rug out of town and gave to job to Reeeeecch. They tried to Run Parcells out before LT took over the league. They blew Belicheck out of town with behind the back stuff. They tried to run Coughlin out and then he won 2 and should have been more Championships..
I'm rooting for Jones to turn it around, so are you. Far out.
Based on that wisdom no team ever improves in the NFL. Never. No QB improves from one year early on in his career to the next.
Why can't the Giants improve even just organically in 2021? Forget additions. Forget FA and the draft. Based on Judge and the new staff and this team and the players just growing--why the hell is that such an absurd belief held by some? Don't give me some shit about 8 years or shit. Don't wanna here it. The Knicks sucked for 20 years and with Thibs finally look to be on the right track. Bad teams improve and good teams regress. Nothing is static in the NFL.
I hate regurgitating the past. It means nothing. Don't care about 2018 anymore. Judge is here now. If I had a dollar for every instance of a team going from bad to good while the majority of experts had it wrong, i'd have a lot of dollars.
Let's see where this team goes in 2021 with the same staff in place. I am very curious.
Anyone can argue like this, I may just try it.
Why? I’ve agreed with part of what he says and disagree with others - that’s what I’d call reasonable and healthy. It’s simply his line of thinking on all fronts or the highway and that I don’t subscribe to and never will.
In the end it’s a game I have no control over and as fan of various sports teams a certain degree of hope is applied to each of them. I hope US soccer gets better. I hope UConn gets back to the top 25 (almost there), I hope the Yankees can get over the hump.
I don’t owe you or anyone else MIT approved data points to my hope. Instead I’ve applied reasonable (I think) expectations and if they aren’t met I’ll live.
Let’s put it this way, if the OL doesn’t improve, if Barkley isn’t close to full strength and if we don’t add another playmaker, I dont expect Jones to improve all that much. That’s the same exact thing as I’ve said this whole time, just spun to fit the more accepted narrative.
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this topic with him. The current way doesn't seem to working very well for you.
Why? I’ve agreed with part of what he says and disagree with others - that’s what I’d call reasonable and healthy. It’s simply his line of thinking on all fronts or the highway and that I don’t subscribe to and never will.
Then fine, keep arguing with him the way you are doing so. It was your idea to try something new, not mine.
But if you are suggesting, in your view, that its his line of thinking or the highway then seems kind of pointless to engage, right?
Can Jones improve? He'll almost certainly improve on 2021 - how can he get worse than 2020? But will he improve enough to be in the top half of QBs (and have the offense in the top half of NFL offenses in PPG)? Why would we expect that? He wasn't a great player at Duke, and he hasn't been a good pro. Why expect something that's never happened?
Just remember - he's only starting to save the faces of those that drafted him. That's the kind of force Judge is operating against.
Anyone can argue like this, I may just try it.
he doesn't need to just improve.. he has to suddenly become elite. He has never shown he is capable of this and believing it will happen is just an act of faith. Why are we wasting years on faith? We owe Jones nothing and ought to consider backup plans.
Criticism stated as fact when you have no fucking clue what their thoughts are on Watson.
Maybe you can use it to call Jones a "scholarship player" again. It's what you do. Use supposition as fact and then base arguments around that as if they are unchanging..
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it’s a flawless mindset when arguing with strangers. It’s also a win win - if he does improve its good sans argument against it.
Anyone can argue like this, I may just try it.
he doesn't need to just improve.. he has to suddenly become elite. He has never shown he is capable of this and believing it will happen is just an act of faith. Why are we wasting years on faith? We owe Jones nothing and ought to consider backup plans.
The thread is about making the playoffs, we don’t need an elite QB for that. More than half the teams in the playoffs didn’t have an elite QB.
You guys love the words “faith” and “hope” like it actually means anything to me or whoever else it’s geared towards. Jones is the QB in 2021 - time to “hope” he improves and stop telling everyone else that we shouldn’t.
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Pointing out that ownership would never consider moving for Watson isn't pining; it's criticism.
Criticism stated as fact when you have no fucking clue what their thoughts are on Watson.
Maybe you can use it to call Jones a "scholarship player" again. It's what you do. Use supposition as fact and then base arguments around that as if they are unchanging..
Jones has played poorly for two years but isn't being made to compete for his job. I'd say the term is accurate.
Can Jones improve? He'll almost certainly improve on 2021 - how can he get worse than 2020? But will he improve enough to be in the top half of QBs (and have the offense in the top half of NFL offenses in PPG)? Why would we expect that? He wasn't a great player at Duke, and he hasn't been a good pro. Why expect something that's never happened?
Just remember - he's only starting to save the faces of those that drafted him. That's the kind of force Judge is operating against.
lol ok..."forces"
I can't even talk about this shit anymore. The grassy knoll shit just doesn't work for me.
At this point the Giants are one of the worst 5 teams in the NFL for the last 3 years. The GM has a 15-33 record. Only Jacksonville, The Jets and Bengals have lost more games since 2018. The Giants are next tied with the Lions.
How can anyone defend that or think things are going to change with the same people in charge?
The #6 pick QB has an 8-18 record and threw 11 TDs in 14 games last year. That was 29th in the NFL and many guys above him on the list played several less games. Only Cam Newton threw less in more games.
It's not trolling to say that the Giants are horrible. It's a fact.
The defense played well last year even with glaring holes at LB and CB but the two best DLs are both unsigned FAs with at least one of them almost guaranteed to leave.
The Giants are a team with no great players, less than 10 above average players and right up against the cap and two of the above average players are unsigned. How can anyone think this team is being well managed?
Stupid article.