Hernandez...what happened? Comments on the Line.

know what happened to Hernandez. Maybe COVID really did get to him - Myles Garrett(Clev DE) was badly effected by it.

Was it lack of mobility? Poor technique he never overcame?

Watch Lemieux constantly get beat in pass pro was hard to watch. Yes he seemed better in run blocking and pulling.

Wonder if we ever know....?

Which again, are just thoughts of mine, no inside info.

It was interesting to me that Hernandez and Peart both had their playing time dramatically reduced after their bouts of Covid. We talk about Hernandez more because he was a full time starter, but Peart's rotation reps fell after his return, he had games he hardly played in.

While I think there were some things about Lemieux that they liked (faster to the spot pulling) I really feel like at some point in the offseason you're going to see a story about how Hernandez and Peart never got back to form after Covid.

Remember Pettis and Peart caught it at the same time and Pettis lost 8lbs during his sickness and remained inactive for weeks after his return.

and it continued throughout his starts in 2020. While Covid may have had some additional negative affects, not sure that should be used as the source of the problem.

At a time when the Giants are looking for improved momentum on the OL and possibly some cap flexibility from shedding some bloated salaries (Zeitler), Hernandez continuing to disappoint after his solid rookie season is the last thing this Offense needs.

There needs to be some type of resurrection of this guy's career path, which right now is heading downhill and possibly off this team in the near future.

#34 overall in 2018. That is a very big investment for a Guard. I really would've like to have seen more from him. Attitude and grit are great, but that only matters after a foundation of fundamental pass/run blocking.

Shane Lemieux was 5th rounder (150 overall). I thought his college tape look very promising. If he doesn't develop into a starter, it's understandable.

was never a great Guard. He had some pretty good moments, but he’s an average Guard in the NFL. His lateral mobility has always been a sticking point. He can pull, but he’s not as athletic as Lemieux in that sense. I think we’ve seen his ceiling. I think we’ll see development from the three rookies and the line will be better next year from the start. We will need another tackle, if we let Solder go, to compete with Peart on right side. Bringing Fleming back is always a possibility.

as he was after it. Plus what's worse is that as soon as he left, Thomas actually playing better.. I am not sure why that is but no one has played LT sufficiently when next to Hernandez..

In comment 15155073 Simms11 said:

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was never a great Guard. He had some pretty good moments, but he’s an average Guard in the NFL. His lateral mobility has always been a sticking point. He can pull, but he’s not as athletic as Lemieux in that sense. I think we’ve seen his ceiling. I think we’ll see development from the three rookies and the line will be better next year from the start. We will need another tackle, if we let Solder go, to compete with Peart on right side. Bringing Fleming back is always a possibility.

Simms11 - I think you hit on some of it as well.

First being Hernandez's game is not developing and in some cases has gotten worse since his rookie season. Second, while Lemieux has technique issues with pass protection, he is markedly quicker off the snap and more athletic on the move than Hernandez. The coaches likely saw the same thing and that is why he started playing more when they were looking to run more traps/pulls with running game and take advantage of that part of his game versus Hernandez.

we were using that started to work mid-season on. Lemieux was a liability in pass pro (Sy’s weekly game reviews often dinged him for it). But they mostly stuck with Lemieux down the stretch bc something was working in the run game with him.

I agree that Hernandez has regressed since a promising rookie year, but I do think he’s still solid in pass protection.

Reasonable to raise the Covid question too.

I recall Sy liked some other interior linemen over Hernandez in round 2 of that draft, pretty sure Billy Price was one of them, I forget the others.

Regardless, I agree with the overall sentiment that while they improved, OL is still a big need, especially at guard.

I also have a feeling Zietler is a cap casualty. He was our best OL this year still, but he’s due $12 million with only $2.5 million dead money I think. With the tight cap, that $10 million could be used for an upgrade

That’s really interesting.

It sure looks like using a 3rd or 4th rounder on a guard in the upcoming draft would be a good idea.

with limited off-season and no pre-season. I think they move Peart inside to guard (after clearing $12 Million in cap space by cutting Zeigler) for a year or so and say good-bye to Hernandez.

Is the potential lingering effects on your Lungs after the virus has been defeated.

Several Basketball players are going through it now and even upon their return their numbers are down. Myles Garrett also spoke about it and wasn't as productive weeks after his return. I live with Asthma and shortness of breath greatly affects my level of performing activities on a daily basis.

In comment 15155070 ATL_Giants said:

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#34 overall in 2018. That is a very big investment for a Guard. I really would've like to have seen more from him. Attitude and grit are great, but that only matters after a foundation of fundamental pass/run blocking. Shane Lemieux was 5th rounder (150 overall). I thought his college tape look very promising. If he doesn't develop into a starter, it's understandable.

Correct we had hopes for another Chris Snee here but he doesn't have Snee's feet.I still think he can be a better OG when the guys next to him are playing better. In other words if we don't ask him to do to much he'll be much better.

I thought they might be trying out Lemieux to make sure they knew if he has a future. They know what they have with Hernandez. This way thy know more about Lemieux and they are getting him playing time and experience. ????

And recovered. Even though after recovery I felt normal, if I did anything requiring physical exertion, I was surprised at how quickly I would be exhausted.

Will Hernandez is a good starting Guard in the NFL. BBI sucks at evaluating OL play, particularly inside OL. I've watched a good deal of tape, and I've found Hernandez to play with edge, nastiness, and quality. He gets his fair share of pancakes, he pulls effectively, and very occasionally, he gets beat.

To say Shane Lemieux outplayed Hernandez is completely false. Lemieux DID play more reps than Hernandez, but Lemieux also took his share of lumps. I'm not down on Lemieux, he has a chance to be a good Guard. But the LG spot was noticeably less effective and allowed more pressures and sacks with Lemieux in there.

As far as how Hernandez was last year? He was a complete Guard. Allowed I think only 2 sacks all season, and regularly moved his man off the los in the run game.

There are plenty of possible reasons that Hernandez didn't play over Lemieux despite being the more complete and effective player. Nobody knows. What I do know, is that whatever the reason, it's not because Lemieux was achieving better onfield results. That's just completely false.

...agreed.

Seeing folks here "evaluate' OL play is frustrating. It's not something that you do "in game" because most likely you aren't focusing on one guy on every play.
Determining that WH has regressed would require hours of cut-ups and knowledge of what's going on at practice/health.

I'm bullish on Will.

this is a very good and detailed breakdown of his play going into 2020.

The guy has talents, showed them well in college, was drafted very early and had a good rookie year. No denying what he can do, but he needs to get back on track because he didn't just lose snaps this past year to a rookie 5th rounder because of COVID.

https://www.bigblueview.com/2020/6/22/21293620/will-hernandez-film-study-what-went-wrong-and-right-for-talented-young-guard-in-2019

In comment 15155134 allstarjim said:

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And recovered. Even though after recovery I felt normal, if I did anything requiring physical exertion, I was surprised at how quickly I would be exhausted. Will Hernandez is a good starting Guard in the NFL. BBI sucks at evaluating OL play, particularly inside OL. I've watched a good deal of tape, and I've found Hernandez to play with edge, nastiness, and quality. He gets his fair share of pancakes, he pulls effectively, and very occasionally, he gets beat. To say Shane Lemieux outplayed Hernandez is completely false. Lemieux DID play more reps than Hernandez, but Lemieux also took his share of lumps. I'm not down on Lemieux, he has a chance to be a good Guard. But the LG spot was noticeably less effective and allowed more pressures and sacks with Lemieux in there. As far as how Hernandez was last year? He was a complete Guard. Allowed I think only 2 sacks all season, and regularly moved his man off the los in the run game. There are plenty of possible reasons that Hernandez didn't play over Lemieux despite being the more complete and effective player. Nobody knows. What I do know, is that whatever the reason, it's not because Lemieux was achieving better onfield results. That's just completely false.

Great post.

The way things went last season point to after effects of covid. When WH came back why did Judge insist on a rotation? Colombo didn't want to rotate linemen and got canned for it. They already know what they have in WH. If they thought SL was better than they would have played him the whole game. My opinion is they rotated because they wanted to get as much of WH as they could. He couldn't last the whole game.

The Giants probably had more than their share of great ones over a twenty-year span: Pepper Johnson, Mark Collins, Jumbo Elliott, Michael Strahan, Jason Sehorn, Amani Toomer, Tiki Barber, Osi Umenyiora, Chris Snee, plus a number of other solid picks like Howard, Sparks, Jurevicius, Griffin, and Webster. There were busts, certainly, but the number of genuine stars - franchise GOATs, even - is striking.

Starting with Sinorice Moss in 2006, though, "solid" has been the ceiling. Steve Smith and Terrell Thomas were good players until injuries hit. Dalvin Tomlinson was nice value. Landon Collins had one great season. Sterling Shepard is a complementary receiver. Linval Joseph was good here, and became a beast in Minnesota. Will Beatty, Weston Richburg and Johnathan Hankins showed flashes, but couldn't sustain a high level.

That leaves Moss, Sintim, Austin, Randle, Hernandez and McKinney, plus the trade-up for Baker - arguably the worst outcome of all. Ugh. Maybe that's just how it goes in the second round. I think "normal" is somewhere between the past fifteen years and the previous twenty. Viewed that way, Hernandez might simply be an average - or slightly below average - pick for his draft status. That's disappointing though. Gettleman needed a home run with that pick - a Chris Snee pick. He seems to have gotten a JAG.

In comment 15155086 cosmicj said:

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That’s really interesting. It sure looks like using a 3rd or 4th rounder on a guard in the upcoming draft would be a good idea.

I've always been of the mindset that you select at least 1 OL per draft anyway, but yes I do think you see us draft a guard somewhere in the draft. Zeitler's cap number will be a big part of this as well.

In comment 15155181 Biteymax22 said:

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In comment 15155086 cosmicj said: Quote: That’s really interesting. It sure looks like using a 3rd or 4th rounder on a guard in the upcoming draft would be a good idea. I've always been of the mindset that you select at least 1 OL per draft anyway, but yes I do think you see us draft a guard somewhere in the draft. Zeitler's cap number will be a big part of this as well.

If you're not drafting an OL every draft, you're falling behind.

Year for each position group. DB, LB, DL, OL, RB, WR, TE and QB. However, this team is not so loaded that you can do that, so it’s BPA and cluster drafting to try to stabilize and have depth at least at a couple of spots.

In comment 15155134 allstarjim said:

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And recovered. Even though after recovery I felt normal, if I did anything requiring physical exertion, I was surprised at how quickly I would be exhausted. Will Hernandez is a good starting Guard in the NFL. BBI sucks at evaluating OL play, particularly inside OL. I've watched a good deal of tape, and I've found Hernandez to play with edge, nastiness, and quality. He gets his fair share of pancakes, he pulls effectively, and very occasionally, he gets beat. To say Shane Lemieux outplayed Hernandez is completely false. Lemieux DID play more reps than Hernandez, but Lemieux also took his share of lumps. I'm not down on Lemieux, he has a chance to be a good Guard. But the LG spot was noticeably less effective and allowed more pressures and sacks with Lemieux in there. As far as how Hernandez was last year? He was a complete Guard. Allowed I think only 2 sacks all season, and regularly moved his man off the los in the run game. There are plenty of possible reasons that Hernandez didn't play over Lemieux despite being the more complete and effective player. Nobody knows. What I do know, is that whatever the reason, it's not because Lemieux was achieving better onfield results. That's just completely false.

Great post. Even Skinner the YouTube dude who watches a ton of tape likes Will quite a bit.

I thought he was the best OL we had - and very quickly he went to the bench last year.

?



Real story will come out eventually.

In comment 15155101 Judge_and_Jury said:

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Is the potential lingering effects on your Lungs after the virus has been defeated. Several Basketball players are going through it now and even upon their return their numbers are down. Myles Garrett also spoke about it and wasn't as productive weeks after his return. I live with Asthma and shortness of breath greatly affects my level of performing activities on a daily basis.

I can confirm this from personal experience. I've always been healthy and do cardio workouts 4 times a week, and I am now in my 5th week of lung capacity issues. I also do not weigh 300 lbs like Hernandez and Peart, so I can only imagine it's significantly worse for them.

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There are plenty of possible reasons that Hernandez didn't play over Lemieux despite being the more complete and effective player.

Plenty of reasons? There is 1 reason - that Hernandez was still recovering from COVID.

Let's put the tinfoil hat away - the most likely explanation is the simplest one: Lemieux is the better player, and the arm chair evaluators claiming otherwise are wrong.

In comment 15155292 mittenedman said:

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Quote: There are plenty of possible reasons that Hernandez didn't play over Lemieux despite being the more complete and effective player. Plenty of reasons? There is 1 reason - that Hernandez was still recovering from COVID. Let's put the tinfoil hat away - the most likely explanation is the simplest one: Lemieux is the better player, and the arm chair evaluators claiming otherwise are wrong.

Well is it to Covid or is Lemieux the better player?

BTW, how's you view from the armchair?

but my eyes work and I've never seen a guard "handle" a stunt worse that Hernandez. Any kind of a twist at all from either side of him and there is clear path to the QB. That's been the case from his first snap to his last.

I think if its north of $2million then there is a real possibility he's done here. Sy'56's guy Braden Smith SHOULD have been the pick for us...

2018 draft was terrible... Will may have been the worst pick. Tough player. Team player. But not that talented.

cited the lack of lateral mobility. He was not a fan as a result. He’s turned out to be correct. He’s only played LG but his skill set seems to indicate RG material. We’ll see.

They did not win a single game. 0-12. Playing for fucking UTEP...

Watched an interview with some ex-olinemen who said the same thing. Onfield results weren’t substantially greater than that of WH.

But! They noticed an increased sense of partnership with AT and a corresponding improvement in AT’s play that the panel theorized it was Shane’s ability to communicate better with AT that led to his increased playing time. Simply put Shane and Thomas were a better duo on the line.

I’m not an online expert by any stretch but certainly was as interesting take as any.

In comment 15155101 Judge_and_Jury said:

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Is the potential lingering effects on your Lungs after the virus has been defeated. Several Basketball players are going through it now and even upon their return their numbers are down. Myles Garrett also spoke about it and wasn't as productive weeks after his return. I live with Asthma and shortness of breath greatly affects my level of performing activities on a daily basis.

Yeah, I feel like (in general) the long-COVID has been grossly undervalued by the population.

As BiteyMax says, I have little doubt that both Hernandez and Peart had post-COVID complications.

say a 5. and i would absolutely do that

In comment 15155331 Dave on the UWS said:

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cited the lack of lateral mobility. He was not a fan as a result. He’s turned out to be correct. He’s only played LG but his skill set seems to indicate RG material. We’ll see.

I think (without taking the time to look it up) that Braden Smith was the guy the Sy56 liked over Hernandez. Wish they had listened to Sy -- Smith was picked soon after by the Colts, and has turned out to be a really good OL.

makes the Zeitler decision easy.

Why isn't the solution to saving $12 million as simple as moving Hernandez over to his spot?

Zeitler isn't the All-Pro we thought we were getting and seems to be more of JAG with each passing day.

Use that money to sign a FA vet to play RT and let the new guy be the "vet" leader of the OL, Let Peart continue to be a swing tackle/rotational piece, draft a G/T in the mid-rounds of the draft and call it a day....

Could it really be that simple?

...is likely a starter in 2021.

He'll be fine.

you are correct.

I ain't giving up on Hernandez -- I think he will end up being a good player

Guessing and Hoping that Peart and Lemieux can just step up and start....signing "a veteran Guy" who doesn't have a name.... cutting a professional Lineman.... 5 positions/5 guys---that's not how this works!

I liked a lot of what I saw with Lemieux, but it was all on the talent side... he was a half disaster on too many Passing downs...Same with Peart.

When you really start adding up the Dollars, and that includes Solder coming back, there may be a lot of gravity for picking "the best O Lineman in the Draft" if He's there at 11. They cannot be Talent Starved at the p;osition.

I am pretty much the same size as Hernandez and I had Covid last April and while everybody reacts differently to it I was on my ass for about a month and still felt the effects for a month later so it is very possible he was still messed up

In comment 15155292 mittenedman said:

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Quote: There are plenty of possible reasons that Hernandez didn't play over Lemieux despite being the more complete and effective player. Plenty of reasons? There is 1 reason - that Hernandez was still recovering from COVID. Let's put the tinfoil hat away - the most likely explanation is the simplest one: Lemieux is the better player, and the arm chair evaluators claiming otherwise are wrong.

Could be a disciplinary issue, could be they wanted Lemieux to get an extended run of playing time, could be Covid-related, could be a combination of things. My guess is a combo of Covid and wanting to give Lemieux a good look.

In comment 15155449 Brown_Hornet said:

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...is likely a starter in 2021. He'll be fine.

Hope so BH ... to me he was the biggest ? from 2020. Honest ...


Every 2-3 weeks I would ask myself and others did someome just take his job that quick and that easy?

Eevrything I ever read or heard about him was - he was a "mauler"". Then how does he end up on the bench?
I was disappointed - if he was sick - OKAY.

Get Better his year Will!! Hope all is well .... or at leeast - better.

Lemieux isn't a better player, and his pass blocking demonstrates this.

But what he IS good at, namely in the run game, is a better fit for what the Giants wanted to do last year.

-from suggesting Hernandez is a "de facto" starter in 2021 even though he lost his job in 2020;

-to suggesting Zeitler is the real "JAG" so just put Hernandez at Right Guard and that problem is solved;

-to even cutting Hernandez to save a paltry $2M from the last year of his rookie deal even though he, at worst, is the first guy off the bench if a starting Guard goes down.

I am not sure what will happen at either Guard spot when the 2021 season opens, but all of the thoughts mentioned above are nonsensical.

...?

In my best Inigo Montoya, "I do not think that phrase means what you think it means..."

What does it mean Brown Hornet?

...FACT, rather than "likley..."

I'm playing man, it's all good.

In comment 15156083 Brown_Hornet said:

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...FACT, rather than "likley..." I'm playing man, it's all good.

Apologies if I took any unjust liberties, felt your basic sentiment was that he was going to start. And I think that is a leap of faith since he was back healthy (good as new per WH's own words) and yet on the bench when we last left the team.

No worries. Thanks!

...but I believe that he's a good football player.

He is a bit limited athletically but much the the disbelief of BBIs smash brothers, imv, he's a pretty good puller.
From my limited pov, his struggles are in the Zone game where he needs to disengage on his double and pick up the LB that is filling the open window.

I am hopeful that he benefits from the close watch of his OL coach during the offseason. If he honestly evaluates his film and works on his footwork, he should be fine.

Not sure what you mean there.

Regarding Hernandez, in my humble opinion, he is very inconsistent with his footwork and too slow off the snap in both run and pass. Noted above also are the limitations on lateral movements.

I think the coaches saw a bit more "giddy-up" in Lemieux out of his stance and on the move so they were comfortable enough with his play to keep him a starter, even when WH came back ready to go.

In comment 15155054 section125 said:

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know what happened to Hernandez. Maybe COVID really did get to him - Myles Garrett(Clev DE) was badly effected by it. Was it lack of mobility? Poor technique he never overcame? Watch Lemieux constantly get beat in pass pro was hard to watch. Yes he seemed better in run blocking and pulling. Wonder if we ever know....?

Did he have Covid in 2019, too? Because he wasn't very good that year either.

In comment 15156121 chick310 said:

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Not sure what you mean there. Regarding Hernandez, in my humble opinion, he is very inconsistent with his footwork and too slow off the snap in both run and pass. Noted above also are the limitations on lateral movements. I think the coaches saw a bit more "giddy-up" in Lemieux out of his stance and on the move so they were comfortable enough with his play to keep him a starter, even when WH came back ready to go.

Then why did they rotated them? It doesn't make sense.

Agree with this post. The biggest weakness on this team is the offensive line. If it is not addressed as such during the offseason, it's going to be another year of Saquon getting tackled for a loss and Daniel Jones running around trying to avoid the strip-sack.