Philadelphia has agreed to trade Carson Wentz to the Indianapolis Colts in exchange for a 2021 third-round pick and a conditional 2022 second-round pick that could turn into a first, league sources tell
@mortreport
and me.
the Eagles got the best out of a sunken cost that they could have given the situation. With that said, I think the Eagles fans are outraged and the local media (the beats that I follow on Twitter) seem to say whatever you want to say about the return, the fact that they had to trade Wentz after putting all those assets into it represents a huge organizational failure. I guess my point is that I am not sure the Eagles front office has escaped the blame and gotten significantly better treatment from the locals (national yes) than our front office in some of our recent big moves (LW, OBJ, etc).
any QB under 30 that has been productive will have a market and moving them regardless of contract is likely easier than we think. He'd have a huge market as a FA, and I actually think the money would be similar - look what Rivers got on a 1 year deal. Bridgewater is up to $17m this year. Alex Smith over $20m as is Carr, Brees, Brissett ($21m cap hit in 2020 for an absolute JAG). You get the point.
Re: "Gettleman took shit for two years regarding the Beckham trade and it returned a heck of a lot more than this move." I agree.
I personally liked the Beckham trade right from the start and it looks even better with time. And if Ximines ever stays healthy and contributes, even better.
I also liked the trade from the start, but is there anything we can do to stop FMiC from saying Heck? Asking for a friend.
If you don't watch it old man, I'm going to break out the blue material!!!!
Re: "Gettleman took shit for two years regarding the Beckham trade and it returned a heck of a lot more than this move." I agree.
I personally liked the Beckham trade right from the start and it looks even better with time. And if Ximines ever stays healthy and contributes, even better.
I also liked the trade from the start, but is there anything we can do to stop FMiC from saying Heck? Asking for a friend.
If you don't watch it old man, I'm going to break out the blue material!!!!
Any chance we can purge the Eli/Jones comparisons from this thread, which is meant to be about Wentz? I don't think I'm alone when I say it just gets so bloody tedious the way a thread gets hijacked once again.
RE: RE: Hearing the analytics media praise the Eagles for this trade..
This is where I get annoyed with the hypocrisy. The NFL Ringer show is praising Philly for the trade.
It was not an awful trade for them, it was a decent return given the contract. But, damn this is where the sports media is very tough to take.
Ironically, from an analytics standpoint, the trade is really bad. They gave up a ton of future draft capital to get Wentz and are trading him for a very small return. They gave up two 1st round picks and 5 picks in total.
Basically, they received a draft pick in two separate years for him. A 3rd and a 2nd or 1st. They still have to eat the dead cap space, whether they would have traded him or cut him, and that dead cap is the most in NFL history. Those two picks will do little to repair a roster that has to be stripped due to the cap.
By almost all metrics - it is a really bad trade, and those softshoeing it should put their Giants hats on and ask how they truly would judge the team for making a similar trade.
Hell, Gettleman took shit for two years regarding the Beckham trade and it returned a heck of a lot more than this move.
That's not really an analytics viewpoint. It's really just valuation 101 - they bought high and sold low AND it cost them a boatload of money on top of the sharp drop in draft capital. There's no advanced analytics required to tell you that's a bad outcome.
That said, one of the things that a nuanced analysis might provide some insight for is how much benefit the Eagles derived while Wentz (in asset terms) was depreciating. For example, the Giants gave up what was considered at the time a king's ransom for Eli, and then they received NOTHING in return when he retired. If you're looking solely at the draft picks given/received, you could make a very basic (and very dumb) argument that the Giants lost that trade because they got nothing at the end of Eli's tenure but had to spend a lot at the start.
But we know they got 15 years of steady, good/great QB play, two SB championships, and one of the franchise's all-time great players and people for that trade. They didn't have to get anything in return at the end of his career for that trade to be considered a huge success.
So, with Wentz, how much did the Eagles get in value during Wentz's tenure, and does that offset the steep drop in draft capital value that they suffered from point A to point B? Here's where it gets tricky, IMO. I think if Wentz had remained healthy in 2017 and been the QB for their SB victory, it would be hard to call the full transactional cycle a loss for them. But he wasn't the QB for that SB, so I don't know how much less credit to assign to Wentz - I think it's fair to say they probably wouldn't have been in the SB without Wentz that season, so he does deserve some credit there.
What really makes the Eagles look bad here is that this deal is coming right on the heels of the Stafford trade, and with a potential Watson trade looming. We're seeing QBs return significant hauls. Wentz, meanwhile, was traded for very little compared to Stafford (and what we can logically assume a trade for Watson would require). In a sense, Wentz was traded for a package that is closer in value to what the Dolphins gave up for a busted Josh Rosen than it is to what the bona fide franchise QBs are going for.
This is where it becomes self-defining, IMO: the Eagles knew they'd be getting pennies on the dollar to trade Wentz this offseason. They could have tried to repair his value and pay down his contract for another season (to reduce the dead money commitment) and then traded him next year if things didn't go especially well. That would have been the reasonable move. And the fact that they still wound up trading him despite how low his value is currently tells me that, in their eyes, he's even worse than that.
They made what appears to be a calculated decision to take their medicine this year with a massive dead money hit and just get a rebuild underway. I suppose there's something faintly admirable about that, but I think there has to be more to it. The only way that it wouldn't make sense to try to rebuild Wentz's value for another year is that there is something potentially toxic about having him on the roster in 2021. Maybe the concern that he'd block Hurts from developing, or the risk that he'd look just as bad or worse this year as he did last year and then his value drops even more.
Personally, I don't see any way to praise the Eagles for this other than to say that there is a possibility that this could end up being the most that they'd have gotten for him now or in the future, and if that's the case, they're better off for acting now rather than waiting. And if that is how it plays out, then it's not this trade that they should be criticized for; it's the trade they made to acquire him in the first place that would be problematic.
return is all that the Eagles were going to get. League opinion on Wentz has soured based on injuries and the fact that he basically shut out his coach and some teammates in Philly. You don't just automatically get a king's ransom for a guy who was once a great QB....if the times have changed and his performance has severely diminished, and that coupled with injury history and weird ending in Philly....I think they did OK to get what they could for the guy. It's not like some other team offered them something better and they turned it down. They made calls, and got the best deal...what's done is done. I just think Wentz isn't that highly regarded anymore, plus his contract is fucking massive.
probably overpaid for Stafford, but it was clear a lot of teams were in on him and offering a first round pick plus more. This is one of those things where it seems league opinion on Stafford and what he has left in the tank is significantly higher than a Wentz reclamation project.
probably overpaid for Stafford, but it was clear a lot of teams were in on him and offering a first round pick plus more. This is one of those things where it seems league opinion on Stafford and what he has left in the tank is significantly higher than a Wentz reclamation project.
Again, the Rams paid more for Stafford because of Goff. One of these days you're going to acknowledge that.
I If he was a disaster, which he's not...they'd obviously move along.
Evaluating someone who's been an overt disaster is easy, and a luxury that you don't always have. Jones is not a Ryan Leaf-level disaster, and if he were the decision wouldn't even be a decision -- it would be made for you.
Making a decision based on something less overt is the hard part, and being able to make the right decision under those conditions more often than not is what separates the very well run teams from the rest of the pack.
If you DON'T re-sign Wentz, which you are saying they shouldn't have, who do you EVER re-sign?
I think those who think the Wentz contract was a mistake simply never agreed that he was proven to be an elite player and wasn't yet worthy of such an extension. They don't believe he's in the same company of all those QBs who are no-brainers. And if they held that position back then, today proves them right.
Eli (years 1 & 2)- 389-754- 4805yds- 30td- 26int and 12 fumbles with a 50.5% compl %
Jones (years 1 & 2)- 564-907-5970yds- 35td- 22int and 23 fumbles with a 62.2% compl %.
The thing is, you can't simply negate any concern about Jones by offering a comparison with another QB's stats from their first two years, and then declare that Jones will likely follow that QB's path. Or if you do, you ought to include someone like this guy who was basically out of the league by year 5:
_____ (Years 1 and 2, 25 starts total): 449-764-5306 - 35 TD - 24 INT and 18 fumbles (5 lost) with a 59% comp.
probably overpaid for Stafford, but it was clear a lot of teams were in on him and offering a first round pick plus more. This is one of those things where it seems league opinion on Stafford and what he has left in the tank is significantly higher than a Wentz reclamation project.
Again, the Rams paid more for Stafford because of Goff. One of these days you're going to acknowledge that.
Agree! And they got a QB thats has been tried and true to stand in a pocket and take a beating. Goff on the other hand, cringes at the first sign of pressure.
The eagles got rid of their "Goff". I see a connection between Goff/Wentz where, when the pressure was on, they couldn't get it done and make things happen....at least Stafford handled those situations pretty well while on a shitty Detroit team.
SO although the Rams paid up more to fix there mistake, they got a pretty good QB in return. Eagles got squat and just wanted out of him.
I If he was a disaster, which he's not...they'd obviously move along.
Evaluating someone who's been an overt disaster is easy, and a luxury that you don't always have. Jones is not a Ryan Leaf-level disaster, and if he were the decision wouldn't even be a decision -- it would be made for you.
Making a decision based on something less overt is the hard part, and being able to make the right decision under those conditions more often than not is what separates the very well run teams from the rest of the pack.
But Jones' play in year 2 HAS been a disaster. But many claim it is mitigated by his circumstances, poor surrounding cast. I don't buy it but we should find out in year 3 one way or the other.
I actually think Wentz is a guy with elite physical traits (not worth much). Now, for what it’s worth, no one has been more right about the state of the organization than Terps over the past few years. We all want the same thing, the glory years for the Giants again, seems very far away. Of course, this thread is really a referendum on Jones- which is fine insofar as this is the most important position in the game.
It's not very hard to say the team sucks when the team sucks.
Well, actually a lot of fans have a very hard time coming to grips and saying the team sucks when the team sucks.
They can't see it or believe its nothing other than temporary.
Reasons may vary as well here too.
You have an incredible inability to separate fans seeing things that makes them feel that are better days ahead with somehow suggesting they haven’t thought the team has sucked recently. Since you claimed it, I’ll ask you, what posters on this board have said that the team hasn’t sucked recently?
at least for most, even between the lines. There is fan passion and hope that comes out in a lot of posts, but many can still call a spade a spade. And then there are many that cannot.
at least for most, even between the lines. There is fan passion and hope that comes out in a lot of posts, but many can still call a spade a spade. And then there are many that cannot.
I will stand by what I posted.
That is your perception that may not be accurate. I find there is often much miscommunication between individuals for a couple of reasons.
People don't often communicate clearly their position for different reasons
People assume other's positions instead of simply asking.
RE: Its not an incredible ability to be able to read
at least for most, even between the lines. There is fan passion and hope that comes out in a lot of posts, but many can still call a spade a spade. And then there are many that cannot.
I will stand by what I posted.
So stand by it. You said now prove it. Show us all which posters have said this team hasn’t sucked recently. You said it, you’re standing by it now back it up. Who are these posters that think the team hasn’t sucked?
at least for most, even between the lines. There is fan passion and hope that comes out in a lot of posts, but many can still call a spade a spade. And then there are many that cannot.
I will stand by what I posted.
So stand by it. You said now prove it. Show us all which posters have said this team hasn’t sucked recently. You said it, you’re standing by it now back it up. Who are these posters that think the team hasn’t sucked?
Didn't think the statements made should be so confrontational. But I should have realized the site does contain posters with all types of mindsets and demeanors.
I don't need to create your list Joe McCarthy so you can stop asking.
Here's the most basic miscommunication on this board that
is a real struggle for people to rationalize, you ready?
Just because I'm not willing to crucify every move Dave Gettleman makes as a disaster as soon as he makes it (Saquon Barkley, Daniel Jones, Leonard Williams, Odell Beckham, etc...) and am willing to let it play out, I am not actually a defender of Dave Gettleman himself. It just means I can see logical reason for the move and want to see it play out.
At the end of the day, I don't give a shit if Dave Gettleman is fired or not.
Just because I'm not ready to definitively say what Daniel Jones is or isn't right at this moment, does not mean that I think he's a franchise QB that is locked into place never to be replaced.
It's posters like YOU that need to create that fantasy so you have somebody to argue with/troll. You create strawman arguments like the one you just created above, and then double down on it.
Now you're backtracking after being called on it. Read between those lines.
RE: Here's the most basic miscommunication on this board that
is a real struggle for people to rationalize, you ready?
Just because I'm not willing to crucify every move Dave Gettleman makes as a disaster as soon as he makes it (Saquon Barkley, Daniel Jones, Leonard Williams, Odell Beckham, etc...) and am willing to let it play out, I am not actually a defender of Dave Gettleman himself. It just means I can see logical reason for the move and want to see it play out.
At the end of the day, I don't give a shit if Dave Gettleman is fired or not.
Just because I'm not ready to definitively say what Daniel Jones is or isn't right at this moment, does not mean that I think he's a franchise QB that is locked into place never to be replaced.
It's posters like YOU that need to create that fantasy so you have somebody to argue with/troll. You create strawman arguments like the one you just created above, and then double down on it.
Now you're backtracking after being called on it. Read between those lines.
Both Dave Gettleman and Daniel Jones deserve another year in my view as well. I have never said otherwise.
You said its not hard to say the team sucks, and I suggested that fans (of many teams by the way not just the NYG) do have a very hard time with that. A general concept that is not hard to believe.
Its not backtracking just to not call out names.
It’s okay for fans opinions/outlook to change re: the Giants
Go Terps gets a lot of shit on this site, but if you’ve been around here for a long time and aren’t a clear dupe (which many are), you’d know that GT was actually very positive during the Coughlin/Eli era in real time. Continued bottom of the league results is going to make anyone annoyed, but he provides context and thought behind his opinions. So, anyone who just lazily takes the approach that he’s always negative is full of shit.
I also vividly remember Britt being negative with regards to the team during the 2017 preseason, where most were positive coming off an 11-5 season. So, the idea that Britt is always pie in the sky with everything the Giants do is wrong.
At the end of the day we are all Giant fans and want the team to win again. I’m hopeful Judge can be that coach and *hopeful* the tide is finally starting to turn. We’ll see.
The team sucks, and has fucking sucked for a LONG time.
You don't need to be a statistics expert to know that.
In fact, constantly pointing to the record over the past 3-9 years is actually kind of pointless. Because if you're posting on a Giants message board, I'm pretty sure everybody knows what the record is. And the record is inarguable. Nobody can argue against that record. You think it's some shocking revelation when somebody comes in to a post and posts the record? Yet it happens nearly every day. It is what it is.
What IS arguable/debatable, are the reasons for the record. What IS arguable/debatable, are the paths needed to be taken for improvement.
But biggest problem on this board these days in regards to those debates are absolute and definitive statements.
Examples: It has been stated here quite a bit that the book on Daniel Jones is written. Daniel Jones is no better than a career backup. He has hit his ceiling. He is not going to get better. Leonard Williams trade IS a disaster, a fireable offense. Jabril Peppers is a crappy player and Gettleman is a joke for saying he's like getting an additional first round pick (immediately following the trade, even though he actually was a 1st round pick).
Do you see the opposite? Do you see people regularly stating that Daniel Jones IS a franchise QB that will start for this franchise for 15 years? Leonard William WILL get 10+ sacks next year (immediately following the trade), Leonard williams WILL be the best player on defense? Jabril Peppers WILL play at an all pro level on this team (immediately following the trade)?
Did you see any of that? No, you saw people saying "Well, that was a surprising move but I think I'll wait and see how it plays out. We needed a QB/DT/DE/S so we'll see what this guy does...
Absolute negatives are considered realism and cautious optimism is labeled as being a homer.
There is nothing wrong with liking some moves the team makes. There is nothing wrong with seeing improvement.
If you don't, and you know for certain it will never improve until x, y, z.... Then why do you even bother with this if you know the answers, but know the Giants aren't doing them so they are doomed to toil in obscurity for the rest of eternity?
I choose to believe after every offseason that the team has the ability to be 10-6 NEXT year. If I don't believe that they can improve, why would I even both watching? Why would I both spending my time talking about the Giants year round? Seems like an exercise in futility if I knew they were never going to get better.
"Do you see people regularly stating that Daniel Jones IS a franchise QB that will start for this franchise for 15 years?"
I've also seen it stated that Jones is better than a recent league MVP.
I've also seen it stated that Barkley is the best back in the league and a Hall of Famer.
I've also seen it stated that Gettleman should be considered for GM of the year.
There are also the constant comparisons between Eli and Jones, which don't make any sense and are disrespectful to Eli.
And then of course there is the endless stream of excuses and rationalizations for why the team sucks.
Real life is this: the Giants are a bad football team, Jones has been terrible in his two seasons, the Barkley pick was a mistake, and the Giants have been poorly run for years.
Could that all change? I suppose it could. There is no reason to believe it though until it actually happens.
If you have seen people state that Jones is a franchise QB for the
If you have seen people say Jones is definitively better than Lamar Jackson, then I disagree with them but am certain it was not an apples to apples comparison. Context matters.
Barkley played like the best back in the league his first year, he was at least in the debate. I wouldn't call any player recently drafted a lock HOF'er.
Gettleman for GM of the year is stupid.
Constant comparison between Eli and Jones. This is a major failure to communicate or acknowledge context. Nobody compares Eli to Jones directly. They compare their situations, and what the rest of the roster was like around them. Massive difference.
But this debate is also an exercise in futility at this point.
and in many cases the struggles have been self-inflicted. Although that isn't rare with lots of franchises that have reached the peak of their sport.
Thought the Giants played far more competitive football in 2020 than in recent years, but still have a ways to go. Enough that I feel 2021 will still be a struggle, but let's see how it plays out and maybe they will surprise.
Hope so, not just because I am a big fan but because many seem to really need it to happen.
"I choose to believe after every offseason that the team has the ability to be 10-6 NEXT year. If I don't believe that they can improve, why would I even both watching? Why would I both spending my time talking about the Giants year round? Seems like an exercise in futility if I knew they were never going to get better."
We all hope they get better. But what does what we hope have to do with what's actually happening?
If you see a house being built on sand do you tell yourself it's going to stand up solely because you hope it does? Of course not.
The evidence from the past decade tells us the Giants are poorly run. The evidence from his time at Duke and his time here tells us that Jones isn't a good NFL quarterback. The rest is noise and, to use a word people love using incorrectly, narratives.
It's early, but the evidence appears to point to Judge being a good coach. That is where my hope lies.
A Difference in the long run if the architects of the Giants are committed to using a foundation of sand for their structure as you believe.
That's my fear, and why I was so disappointed when Gettleman was retained. Had they moved on from him and collaborated with Judge to hire a GM from outside the organization that would have been a sign of real change. Instead we're left hoping the power dynamics are shifting from Gettleman to Judge - but the extent to which that is actually happening is anyone's guess.
A Difference in the long run if the architects of the Giants are committed to using a foundation of sand for their structure as you believe.
That's my fear, and why I was so disappointed when Gettleman was retained. Had they moved on from him and collaborated with Judge to hire a GM from outside the organization that would have been a sign of real change. Instead we're left hoping the power dynamics are shifting from Gettleman to Judge - but the extent to which that is actually happening is anyone's guess.
One day at a time or one season at a time Mr. Terps. At least that is how I choose to deal with these times or very little fruit.
A Difference in the long run if the architects of the Giants are committed to using a foundation of sand for their structure as you believe.
That's my fear, and why I was so disappointed when Gettleman was retained. Had they moved on from him and collaborated with Judge to hire a GM from outside the organization that would have been a sign of real change. Instead we're left hoping the power dynamics are shifting from Gettleman to Judge - but the extent to which that is actually happening is anyone's guess.
One day at a time or one season at a time Mr. Terps. At least that is how I choose to deal with these times or very little fruit.
Judge brought some positive contributions and created a bit of momentum there last year. Possibly with another decent offseason and a better start in September the team will find its mojo...
I think too much emphasis gets put on Gettleman. After listening to the Raanan interview (pinned post), he made a mention that the coaching staff had stronger influence in the offseason last year. Less flashy signings, more smart signings. Signings that fit the philosophy of the program being built as opposed to just throwing a ton of money at Solder or Tate. The signings yielded good results.
Now, does that continue this year? I want to continue to see smart, cost effective signings for players who will fit into Judge’s philosophy. I don’t want to see a WR overpay just because that’s what is needed. Be smart.
An area I’d invest in is backup QB. For all the debate about how good Jones is, something which can’t be disputed is his injuries. Jones has already missed 4 games to injury (2 in each season). Every game is crucial, that must be accounted for.
Drop the head to head comparison. How did they measure up with the NFL?
Eli was #31 in completion % In 05
Jones was #31 in completion % in 20
Eli was #20 in INT %
Jones was #18 in INT %
Eli was #23 in QB rating
Jones was #21 in QB rating
Giants rushing offense was #6 in NFL in 2005
In 2020, NYG rush offense was #19
Eli had the run game and better receiving talent. Tiki had 2300+ scrimmage yards. Plax, Toomer, & Shockley at his best.
Jones had....nothing. He had a terrible year but he looked good in year 1. We should give him more time. Get some WRs and fix the OL.
Not this shit again. Let’s conveniently leave out a few things to pretend like Jones is even a starting level qb in the league let alone comparisons to 2x super bowl mvp.
Eli passing in 2005 with 3762 yards 5th in the league
Eli TD is 24 in 2005 4th in league
The only top 5 jones is in — in both of his seasons were fumbles at 18 and 11 respectively.
The myth around here is jones had a good rookie season. And Eli a bad one. My memories of Eli we’re a young qb who had great potential but threw too many interceptions... but still they had a winning team and played clutch to win games. my memories of jones is a great rookie debut; but downhill ever since with mindnumbing bad plays that resulted in momentum destroying turnovers that other teams capitalize on. The result was putting up meaningless numbers down 2 to 3 scores in what could almost be considered garbage time.
And just to tie this all together I’ve seen Wentz make a miracle comeback against up throwing to a back up running back in a ridiculous cone from behind win. When did jones ever do anything like that in “great” rookie year?
If this is hopeless optimism on jones or just a disingenuous comparison that is rooted in Eli contempt for either the familiarity of the people just riding to say “I told you so” about Eli being the problem
Does jones really need more weapons or do the giants just need a new OB? The line could use some work. But is Golden Tate ; shep; and a pro bowl TE really that little to work with? I’m not even going to mention the overhyped running back that freeman gallma big enough you the same thing more or less minus the style point (which means nothing on the scoreboard).
There is nothing you can point to that jones is not a major reason why this team is not playing poorly.
We can talk about olives and I can talk about Andrew luck having success with a bad online. We can wax philosophies about players who have a track record of success and have multi million dollar contracts that they don’t deserve in the case of Tate or pro bowls they don’t deserve in the case of Engram. But at the end of the day, you can’t point to anything except revisionist history about Eli Manning. Eli “s numbers were top 5 and I would think Eli was a top 8 qb in the league. Jones by every indication looks to be bottom 5. If jones wasn’t drafted 6th —a ridiculous overdraft—he would be sitting on a bench right now.
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and probably was the best offensive line of the past 10 years in the NFL.
Yeah, Wentz helped get that team to the postseason. Perfectly fair. Also probably fair to say many QBs could have succeeded under those circumstances.
Ultimately, the eagles paid Carson Wentz a mega contract for 1 good regular season.
He made ONE postseason start for Philadelphia.
Right. He got the concussion very early in that game last year.
But winning, basically, the four playoff games in December to get there was pretty remarkable.
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Re: "Gettleman took shit for two years regarding the Beckham trade and it returned a heck of a lot more than this move." I agree.
I personally liked the Beckham trade right from the start and it looks even better with time. And if Ximines ever stays healthy and contributes, even better.
I also liked the trade from the start, but is there anything we can do to stop FMiC from saying Heck? Asking for a friend.
If you don't watch it old man, I'm going to break out the blue material!!!!
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In comment 15156969 Dr. D said:
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Re: "Gettleman took shit for two years regarding the Beckham trade and it returned a heck of a lot more than this move." I agree.
I personally liked the Beckham trade right from the start and it looks even better with time. And if Ximines ever stays healthy and contributes, even better.
I also liked the trade from the start, but is there anything we can do to stop FMiC from saying Heck? Asking for a friend.
If you don't watch it old man, I'm going to break out the blue material!!!!
Murderer!
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This is where I get annoyed with the hypocrisy. The NFL Ringer show is praising Philly for the trade.
It was not an awful trade for them, it was a decent return given the contract. But, damn this is where the sports media is very tough to take.
Ironically, from an analytics standpoint, the trade is really bad. They gave up a ton of future draft capital to get Wentz and are trading him for a very small return. They gave up two 1st round picks and 5 picks in total.
Basically, they received a draft pick in two separate years for him. A 3rd and a 2nd or 1st. They still have to eat the dead cap space, whether they would have traded him or cut him, and that dead cap is the most in NFL history. Those two picks will do little to repair a roster that has to be stripped due to the cap.
By almost all metrics - it is a really bad trade, and those softshoeing it should put their Giants hats on and ask how they truly would judge the team for making a similar trade.
Hell, Gettleman took shit for two years regarding the Beckham trade and it returned a heck of a lot more than this move.
That's not really an analytics viewpoint. It's really just valuation 101 - they bought high and sold low AND it cost them a boatload of money on top of the sharp drop in draft capital. There's no advanced analytics required to tell you that's a bad outcome.
That said, one of the things that a nuanced analysis might provide some insight for is how much benefit the Eagles derived while Wentz (in asset terms) was depreciating. For example, the Giants gave up what was considered at the time a king's ransom for Eli, and then they received NOTHING in return when he retired. If you're looking solely at the draft picks given/received, you could make a very basic (and very dumb) argument that the Giants lost that trade because they got nothing at the end of Eli's tenure but had to spend a lot at the start.
But we know they got 15 years of steady, good/great QB play, two SB championships, and one of the franchise's all-time great players and people for that trade. They didn't have to get anything in return at the end of his career for that trade to be considered a huge success.
So, with Wentz, how much did the Eagles get in value during Wentz's tenure, and does that offset the steep drop in draft capital value that they suffered from point A to point B? Here's where it gets tricky, IMO. I think if Wentz had remained healthy in 2017 and been the QB for their SB victory, it would be hard to call the full transactional cycle a loss for them. But he wasn't the QB for that SB, so I don't know how much less credit to assign to Wentz - I think it's fair to say they probably wouldn't have been in the SB without Wentz that season, so he does deserve some credit there.
What really makes the Eagles look bad here is that this deal is coming right on the heels of the Stafford trade, and with a potential Watson trade looming. We're seeing QBs return significant hauls. Wentz, meanwhile, was traded for very little compared to Stafford (and what we can logically assume a trade for Watson would require). In a sense, Wentz was traded for a package that is closer in value to what the Dolphins gave up for a busted Josh Rosen than it is to what the bona fide franchise QBs are going for.
This is where it becomes self-defining, IMO: the Eagles knew they'd be getting pennies on the dollar to trade Wentz this offseason. They could have tried to repair his value and pay down his contract for another season (to reduce the dead money commitment) and then traded him next year if things didn't go especially well. That would have been the reasonable move. And the fact that they still wound up trading him despite how low his value is currently tells me that, in their eyes, he's even worse than that.
They made what appears to be a calculated decision to take their medicine this year with a massive dead money hit and just get a rebuild underway. I suppose there's something faintly admirable about that, but I think there has to be more to it. The only way that it wouldn't make sense to try to rebuild Wentz's value for another year is that there is something potentially toxic about having him on the roster in 2021. Maybe the concern that he'd block Hurts from developing, or the risk that he'd look just as bad or worse this year as he did last year and then his value drops even more.
Personally, I don't see any way to praise the Eagles for this other than to say that there is a possibility that this could end up being the most that they'd have gotten for him now or in the future, and if that's the case, they're better off for acting now rather than waiting. And if that is how it plays out, then it's not this trade that they should be criticized for; it's the trade they made to acquire him in the first place that would be problematic.
I hope he goes to the Colts and lights it up. They are a good situation for him.
Again, the Rams paid more for Stafford because of Goff. One of these days you're going to acknowledge that.
I second that on GD. That was a good read.
Evaluating someone who's been an overt disaster is easy, and a luxury that you don't always have. Jones is not a Ryan Leaf-level disaster, and if he were the decision wouldn't even be a decision -- it would be made for you.
Making a decision based on something less overt is the hard part, and being able to make the right decision under those conditions more often than not is what separates the very well run teams from the rest of the pack.
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with good posts above...
I second that on GD. That was a good read.
If you DON'T re-sign Wentz, which you are saying they shouldn't have, who do you EVER re-sign?
I think those who think the Wentz contract was a mistake simply never agreed that he was proven to be an elite player and wasn't yet worthy of such an extension. They don't believe he's in the same company of all those QBs who are no-brainers. And if they held that position back then, today proves them right.
Eli (years 1 & 2)- 389-754- 4805yds- 30td- 26int and 12 fumbles with a 50.5% compl %
Jones (years 1 & 2)- 564-907-5970yds- 35td- 22int and 23 fumbles with a 62.2% compl %.
The thing is, you can't simply negate any concern about Jones by offering a comparison with another QB's stats from their first two years, and then declare that Jones will likely follow that QB's path. Or if you do, you ought to include someone like this guy who was basically out of the league by year 5:
_____ (Years 1 and 2, 25 starts total): 449-764-5306 - 35 TD - 24 INT and 18 fumbles (5 lost) with a 59% comp.
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probably overpaid for Stafford, but it was clear a lot of teams were in on him and offering a first round pick plus more. This is one of those things where it seems league opinion on Stafford and what he has left in the tank is significantly higher than a Wentz reclamation project.
Again, the Rams paid more for Stafford because of Goff. One of these days you're going to acknowledge that.
Agree! And they got a QB thats has been tried and true to stand in a pocket and take a beating. Goff on the other hand, cringes at the first sign of pressure.
The eagles got rid of their "Goff". I see a connection between Goff/Wentz where, when the pressure was on, they couldn't get it done and make things happen....at least Stafford handled those situations pretty well while on a shitty Detroit team.
SO although the Rams paid up more to fix there mistake, they got a pretty good QB in return. Eagles got squat and just wanted out of him.
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I If he was a disaster, which he's not...they'd obviously move along.
Evaluating someone who's been an overt disaster is easy, and a luxury that you don't always have. Jones is not a Ryan Leaf-level disaster, and if he were the decision wouldn't even be a decision -- it would be made for you.
Making a decision based on something less overt is the hard part, and being able to make the right decision under those conditions more often than not is what separates the very well run teams from the rest of the pack.
But Jones' play in year 2 HAS been a disaster. But many claim it is mitigated by his circumstances, poor surrounding cast. I don't buy it but we should find out in year 3 one way or the other.
Well, actually a lot of fans have a very hard time coming to grips and saying the team sucks when the team sucks.
They can't see it or believe its nothing other than temporary.
Reasons may vary as well here too.
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Reasons may vary.
Well, actually a lot of fans have a very hard time coming to grips and saying the team sucks when the team sucks.
They can't see it or believe its nothing other than temporary.
Reasons may vary as well here too.
You have an incredible inability to separate fans seeing things that makes them feel that are better days ahead with somehow suggesting they haven’t thought the team has sucked recently. Since you claimed it, I’ll ask you, what posters on this board have said that the team hasn’t sucked recently?
I will stand by what I posted.
I will stand by what I posted.
That is your perception that may not be accurate. I find there is often much miscommunication between individuals for a couple of reasons.
People don't often communicate clearly their position for different reasons
People assume other's positions instead of simply asking.
I will stand by what I posted.
So stand by it. You said now prove it. Show us all which posters have said this team hasn’t sucked recently. You said it, you’re standing by it now back it up. Who are these posters that think the team hasn’t sucked?
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at least for most, even between the lines. There is fan passion and hope that comes out in a lot of posts, but many can still call a spade a spade. And then there are many that cannot.
I will stand by what I posted.
So stand by it. You said now prove it. Show us all which posters have said this team hasn’t sucked recently. You said it, you’re standing by it now back it up. Who are these posters that think the team hasn’t sucked?
Didn't think the statements made should be so confrontational. But I should have realized the site does contain posters with all types of mindsets and demeanors.
I don't need to create your list Joe McCarthy so you can stop asking.
Just because I'm not willing to crucify every move Dave Gettleman makes as a disaster as soon as he makes it (Saquon Barkley, Daniel Jones, Leonard Williams, Odell Beckham, etc...) and am willing to let it play out, I am not actually a defender of Dave Gettleman himself. It just means I can see logical reason for the move and want to see it play out.
At the end of the day, I don't give a shit if Dave Gettleman is fired or not.
Just because I'm not ready to definitively say what Daniel Jones is or isn't right at this moment, does not mean that I think he's a franchise QB that is locked into place never to be replaced.
It's posters like YOU that need to create that fantasy so you have somebody to argue with/troll. You create strawman arguments like the one you just created above, and then double down on it.
Now you're backtracking after being called on it. Read between those lines.
Just because I'm not willing to crucify every move Dave Gettleman makes as a disaster as soon as he makes it (Saquon Barkley, Daniel Jones, Leonard Williams, Odell Beckham, etc...) and am willing to let it play out, I am not actually a defender of Dave Gettleman himself. It just means I can see logical reason for the move and want to see it play out.
At the end of the day, I don't give a shit if Dave Gettleman is fired or not.
Just because I'm not ready to definitively say what Daniel Jones is or isn't right at this moment, does not mean that I think he's a franchise QB that is locked into place never to be replaced.
It's posters like YOU that need to create that fantasy so you have somebody to argue with/troll. You create strawman arguments like the one you just created above, and then double down on it.
Now you're backtracking after being called on it. Read between those lines.
Both Dave Gettleman and Daniel Jones deserve another year in my view as well. I have never said otherwise.
You said its not hard to say the team sucks, and I suggested that fans (of many teams by the way not just the NYG) do have a very hard time with that. A general concept that is not hard to believe.
Its not backtracking just to not call out names.
I also vividly remember Britt being negative with regards to the team during the 2017 preseason, where most were positive coming off an 11-5 season. So, the idea that Britt is always pie in the sky with everything the Giants do is wrong.
At the end of the day we are all Giant fans and want the team to win again. I’m hopeful Judge can be that coach and *hopeful* the tide is finally starting to turn. We’ll see.
In fact, constantly pointing to the record over the past 3-9 years is actually kind of pointless. Because if you're posting on a Giants message board, I'm pretty sure everybody knows what the record is. And the record is inarguable. Nobody can argue against that record. You think it's some shocking revelation when somebody comes in to a post and posts the record? Yet it happens nearly every day. It is what it is.
What IS arguable/debatable, are the reasons for the record. What IS arguable/debatable, are the paths needed to be taken for improvement.
But biggest problem on this board these days in regards to those debates are absolute and definitive statements.
Examples: It has been stated here quite a bit that the book on Daniel Jones is written. Daniel Jones is no better than a career backup. He has hit his ceiling. He is not going to get better. Leonard Williams trade IS a disaster, a fireable offense. Jabril Peppers is a crappy player and Gettleman is a joke for saying he's like getting an additional first round pick (immediately following the trade, even though he actually was a 1st round pick).
Do you see the opposite? Do you see people regularly stating that Daniel Jones IS a franchise QB that will start for this franchise for 15 years? Leonard William WILL get 10+ sacks next year (immediately following the trade), Leonard williams WILL be the best player on defense? Jabril Peppers WILL play at an all pro level on this team (immediately following the trade)?
Did you see any of that? No, you saw people saying "Well, that was a surprising move but I think I'll wait and see how it plays out. We needed a QB/DT/DE/S so we'll see what this guy does...
Absolute negatives are considered realism and cautious optimism is labeled as being a homer.
There is nothing wrong with liking some moves the team makes. There is nothing wrong with seeing improvement.
If you don't, and you know for certain it will never improve until x, y, z.... Then why do you even bother with this if you know the answers, but know the Giants aren't doing them so they are doomed to toil in obscurity for the rest of eternity?
I choose to believe after every offseason that the team has the ability to be 10-6 NEXT year. If I don't believe that they can improve, why would I even both watching? Why would I both spending my time talking about the Giants year round? Seems like an exercise in futility if I knew they were never going to get better.
I've also seen it stated that Jones is better than a recent league MVP.
I've also seen it stated that Barkley is the best back in the league and a Hall of Famer.
I've also seen it stated that Gettleman should be considered for GM of the year.
There are also the constant comparisons between Eli and Jones, which don't make any sense and are disrespectful to Eli.
And then of course there is the endless stream of excuses and rationalizations for why the team sucks.
Real life is this: the Giants are a bad football team, Jones has been terrible in his two seasons, the Barkley pick was a mistake, and the Giants have been poorly run for years.
Could that all change? I suppose it could. There is no reason to believe it though until it actually happens.
If you have seen people say Jones is definitively better than Lamar Jackson, then I disagree with them but am certain it was not an apples to apples comparison. Context matters.
Barkley played like the best back in the league his first year, he was at least in the debate. I wouldn't call any player recently drafted a lock HOF'er.
Gettleman for GM of the year is stupid.
Constant comparison between Eli and Jones. This is a major failure to communicate or acknowledge context. Nobody compares Eli to Jones directly. They compare their situations, and what the rest of the roster was like around them. Massive difference.
Thought the Giants played far more competitive football in 2020 than in recent years, but still have a ways to go. Enough that I feel 2021 will still be a struggle, but let's see how it plays out and maybe they will surprise.
Hope so, not just because I am a big fan but because many seem to really need it to happen.
We all hope they get better. But what does what we hope have to do with what's actually happening?
If you see a house being built on sand do you tell yourself it's going to stand up solely because you hope it does? Of course not.
The evidence from the past decade tells us the Giants are poorly run. The evidence from his time at Duke and his time here tells us that Jones isn't a good NFL quarterback. The rest is noise and, to use a word people love using incorrectly, narratives.
It's early, but the evidence appears to point to Judge being a good coach. That is where my hope lies.
That's my fear, and why I was so disappointed when Gettleman was retained. Had they moved on from him and collaborated with Judge to hire a GM from outside the organization that would have been a sign of real change. Instead we're left hoping the power dynamics are shifting from Gettleman to Judge - but the extent to which that is actually happening is anyone's guess.
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A Difference in the long run if the architects of the Giants are committed to using a foundation of sand for their structure as you believe.
That's my fear, and why I was so disappointed when Gettleman was retained. Had they moved on from him and collaborated with Judge to hire a GM from outside the organization that would have been a sign of real change. Instead we're left hoping the power dynamics are shifting from Gettleman to Judge - but the extent to which that is actually happening is anyone's guess.
One day at a time or one season at a time Mr. Terps. At least that is how I choose to deal with these times or very little fruit.
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In comment 15157717 crick n NC said:
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A Difference in the long run if the architects of the Giants are committed to using a foundation of sand for their structure as you believe.
That's my fear, and why I was so disappointed when Gettleman was retained. Had they moved on from him and collaborated with Judge to hire a GM from outside the organization that would have been a sign of real change. Instead we're left hoping the power dynamics are shifting from Gettleman to Judge - but the extent to which that is actually happening is anyone's guess.
One day at a time or one season at a time Mr. Terps. At least that is how I choose to deal with these times or very little fruit.
Judge brought some positive contributions and created a bit of momentum there last year. Possibly with another decent offseason and a better start in September the team will find its mojo...
Now, does that continue this year? I want to continue to see smart, cost effective signings for players who will fit into Judge’s philosophy. I don’t want to see a WR overpay just because that’s what is needed. Be smart.
An area I’d invest in is backup QB. For all the debate about how good Jones is, something which can’t be disputed is his injuries. Jones has already missed 4 games to injury (2 in each season). Every game is crucial, that must be accounted for.
Eli was #31 in completion % In 05
Jones was #31 in completion % in 20
Eli was #20 in INT %
Jones was #18 in INT %
Eli was #23 in QB rating
Jones was #21 in QB rating
Giants rushing offense was #6 in NFL in 2005
In 2020, NYG rush offense was #19
Eli had the run game and better receiving talent. Tiki had 2300+ scrimmage yards. Plax, Toomer, & Shockley at his best.
Jones had....nothing. He had a terrible year but he looked good in year 1. We should give him more time. Get some WRs and fix the OL.
Not this shit again. Let’s conveniently leave out a few things to pretend like Jones is even a starting level qb in the league let alone comparisons to 2x super bowl mvp.
Eli passing in 2005 with 3762 yards 5th in the league
Eli TD is 24 in 2005 4th in league
The only top 5 jones is in — in both of his seasons were fumbles at 18 and 11 respectively.
The myth around here is jones had a good rookie season. And Eli a bad one. My memories of Eli we’re a young qb who had great potential but threw too many interceptions... but still they had a winning team and played clutch to win games. my memories of jones is a great rookie debut; but downhill ever since with mindnumbing bad plays that resulted in momentum destroying turnovers that other teams capitalize on. The result was putting up meaningless numbers down 2 to 3 scores in what could almost be considered garbage time.
And just to tie this all together I’ve seen Wentz make a miracle comeback against up throwing to a back up running back in a ridiculous cone from behind win. When did jones ever do anything like that in “great” rookie year?
Does jones really need more weapons or do the giants just need a new OB? The line could use some work. But is Golden Tate ; shep; and a pro bowl TE really that little to work with? I’m not even going to mention the overhyped running back that freeman gallma big enough you the same thing more or less minus the style point (which means nothing on the scoreboard).
That guy is not a plus player. Not close. He’ll be cut and out of the league this year.
We can talk about olives and I can talk about Andrew luck having success with a bad online. We can wax philosophies about players who have a track record of success and have multi million dollar contracts that they don’t deserve in the case of Tate or pro bowls they don’t deserve in the case of Engram. But at the end of the day, you can’t point to anything except revisionist history about Eli Manning. Eli “s numbers were top 5 and I would think Eli was a top 8 qb in the league. Jones by every indication looks to be bottom 5. If jones wasn’t drafted 6th —a ridiculous overdraft—he would be sitting on a bench right now.