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NGT: Wentz traded to IND

Ten Ton Hammer : 2/18/2021 11:47 am
Philadelphia has agreed to trade Carson Wentz to the Indianapolis Colts in exchange for a 2021 third-round pick and a conditional 2022 second-round pick that could turn into a first, league sources tell
@mortreport
and me.
Great spot for him  
Gettledogman : 2/18/2021 11:48 am : link
Frank will take care of him and he is going to rock there.
Ha ha, they turned down  
section125 : 2/18/2021 11:48 am : link
2 2nds and now get a 3rd and maybe a 1st in 2022?

Glad no one overbid this.
wow....  
ryanmkeane : 2/18/2021 11:48 am : link
decent trade for Indy - I guess they are hoping he lives up to the contract, but they really didn't have to give up much
Increase  
Jolly Blue Giant : 2/18/2021 11:50 am : link
Chance Philly takes a QB in the draft now.
just getting out of his contract is a win for philly  
GiantsFan84 : 2/18/2021 11:50 am : link
i'm surprised they even got that much. there clearly wasn't a market for him outside of indy as they were bidding against themselves
Good use of leverage by Wentz and the Colts.  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 2/18/2021 11:50 am : link
...
I hope they draft a QB at 6  
90.Cal : 2/18/2021 11:51 am : link
.
Imagine after 2017..  
Sean : 2/18/2021 11:51 am : link
If someone told you Beckham would yield a bigger return than Wentz in a trade.
phew  
UConn4523 : 2/18/2021 11:52 am : link
really good news on the minimal haul. Goes to show what the league thinks of him and that contract. He basically netted far less than QB's of the past who were older and not as good.
That's a pretty good deal for Philly  
Jimmy Googs : 2/18/2021 11:53 am : link
could have been a lot worse...
I guess this means Andrew Luck...  
BamaBlue : 2/18/2021 11:54 am : link
isn't coming back. At least not coming back to play in Indy.
The 2nd has a very good chance to become a 1st  
Metnut : 2/18/2021 11:55 am : link
if Wentz doesn’t get hurt or benched.
When you think about  
Jolly Blue Giant : 2/18/2021 11:55 am : link
Why Philly gave up to originally draft him and what they got back in a trade just a few years later, it’s a loss.
FYI  
crackerjack465 : 2/18/2021 11:56 am : link
the incentive is snap based.

75% of snaps played or 70% and Indy makes the playoffs, it becomes a first
RE: That's a pretty good deal for Philly  
UConn4523 : 2/18/2021 11:56 am : link
In comment 15156217 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
could have been a lot worse...


I don't agree. Look up the historical QB trades, this is a lot less than the likes of Foles/Bradford. And the Colts must not care about the money if they traded for whom they assume will be their starter for atleast a few years.

I expected more.
RE: just getting out of his contract is a win for philly  
nygiants16 : 2/18/2021 11:56 am : link
In comment 15156209 GiantsFan84 said:
Quote:
i'm surprised they even got that much. there clearly wasn't a market for him outside of indy as they were bidding against themselves


They have a 33 million dead cap hit this year
Cap  
Hilary : 2/18/2021 11:56 am : link
Does this free 25 million cap space for Iglesias.
RE: Imagine after 2017..  
Britt in VA : 2/18/2021 11:56 am : link
In comment 15156212 Sean said:
Quote:
If someone told you Beckham would yield a bigger return than Wentz in a trade.


Would love to read that hypothetical thread.

Add another to the long road littered with players that were going to “terrorize us for years to come”.
It's a good trade for Indy  
illmatic : 2/18/2021 11:57 am : link
they've recovered well at the QB position since Luck left. That's not always easy to do as we've seen with so many teams. Granted, Wentz isn't exactly a sure thing at this point but he seems like a solid gamble. It'll be a good trade for Philly too if the conditions are easy for that second rounder to turn into a first.
What the conditions for the third/first?  
Bramton1 : 2/18/2021 11:57 am : link
And what impact will it have for the conditional pick in the Shockey trade?
Eagles  
djm : 2/18/2021 11:58 am : link
just sold their former stud QB for pennies on the dollar. They traded triple what they sold him for.

Not that I blame Philly, but it is astounding the leeway BBI shows for other teams while crushing NYG's every move.

This is NOT a good moment for PHilly. Not in any way shape or form. Good for them they escaped the big bad wolf of salary cap--they still gave up the QB that was their crown jewel not very long ago.

If the Colts turn him around the Eagles are going to look absolutely ridiculous. They wacked the HC and then wacked the QB.
Eagles  
Sammo85 : 2/18/2021 11:58 am : link
are headed into a 3-4 year rebuild.

I'd be stunned if Roseman wasn't fired in a year.

Giants have no excuses if they can't take advantage of the division. Washington has no QB, Dallas has question marks, and Eagles into a rebuild.

The time is now........
RE: just getting out of his contract is a win for philly  
djm : 2/18/2021 11:58 am : link
In comment 15156209 GiantsFan84 said:
Quote:
i'm surprised they even got that much. there clearly wasn't a market for him outside of indy as they were bidding against themselves


How do you know that?
RE: RE: just getting out of his contract is a win for philly  
GiantsFan84 : 2/18/2021 11:59 am : link
In comment 15156224 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
In comment 15156209 GiantsFan84 said:


Quote:


i'm surprised they even got that much. there clearly wasn't a market for him outside of indy as they were bidding against themselves



They have a 33 million dead cap hit this year


yes his contract was an albatross. if i'm indy i would want no part of paying wentz his yearly salaries
Perspective  
SLIM_ : 2/18/2021 12:00 pm : link
Eagles got a bigger return when they traded Kevin Kolb to the Cards ten years ago.

RE: When you think about  
djm : 2/18/2021 12:00 pm : link
In comment 15156220 Jolly Blue Giant said:
Quote:
Why Philly gave up to originally draft him and what they got back in a trade just a few years later, it’s a loss.



It's a monumental failure. Let's call is what it is. If The Giants traded Eli Manning after 07 for this package, my god this place would have gone completely ape shit.
assuming  
djm : 2/18/2021 12:01 pm : link
Eli had a bad year in 07 of course...


Whatever. I take solace in knowing Philly screwed up the QB. I think Indy laughs last as Wentz has talent and will likely play well under Reich and away from that shit hole.
RE: RE: That's a pretty good deal for Philly  
Jimmy Googs : 2/18/2021 12:01 pm : link
In comment 15156222 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 15156217 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


could have been a lot worse...



I don't agree. Look up the historical QB trades, this is a lot less than the likes of Foles/Bradford. And the Colts must not care about the money if they traded for whom they assume will be their starter for atleast a few years.

I expected more.


Its not just the picks as I assume the Wentz contract is far more expensive than those and they are able to shed that. And I don't think there was much a competitive bidding for Wentz at this point so there may not have been even Plan B.

Good deal for Philly.
Ok so far 2021 off season  
jvm52106 : 2/18/2021 12:02 pm : link
has seen:

Goff traded to Lions
Stafford traded to Rams
Wentz traded to Colts

Expected retirement of Drew Brees

Possible retirement or release of Ben Roethlisberger

So now what?

Watson could (and I believe WILL) be traded. I think most likely suitors are:

Broncos where they can send Lock, Lindsay, Sutton and picks to Houston or something along those lines.

Jets- Darnold and multiple #1's to Houston

Panthers- #1's and CMac could be on the move

or maybe Dallas who gives up Elliott and some picks for Watson- letting Prescott go as a FA.

I could see Jimmy G getting released or traded (Patriots) and maybe Marcus Mariotta heading to Chicago.

Will be a very crazy offseason.
Great trade for both.  
robbieballs2003 : 2/18/2021 12:02 pm : link
Something was up with Wentz in Philly. A lot of rumors over the years about his personality in that locker room. It's not easy trading a contract like that with guarantees kicking in shortly after the start of the league year. Philly could have got stuck with that bill.

On the flip side, this is exactly the type of move that Indy needed to make. Brissett and Rivers were not part of the solution. Reich knows Wentz so this is more than a shot in the dark. Indy has a great OL and can run the ball and they have weapons. This will be the best situation Wentz has been in during his career and he had a great OL for most of it in Philly.

Another side note, I guess Luck isn't making a comeback? There were rumors about that.
Great trade for  
HoodieGelo : 2/18/2021 12:02 pm : link
both sides. Indy has an incredible offensive line and can prtect Wentz and I believe Frank Reich can get him back to form. Eagles got rid of that contract. It's a win-win. I wish the Eagles got fleeced a little more but oh well.
RE: RE: just getting out of his contract is a win for philly  
FStubbs : 2/18/2021 12:03 pm : link
In comment 15156224 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
In comment 15156209 GiantsFan84 said:


Quote:


i'm surprised they even got that much. there clearly wasn't a market for him outside of indy as they were bidding against themselves



They have a 33 million dead cap hit this year


They're almost assuredly going to be wretched in 2021 anyway, so they may as well take the hit.
RE: Eagles  
djm : 2/18/2021 12:03 pm : link
In comment 15156230 Sammo85 said:
Quote:
are headed into a 3-4 year rebuild.

I'd be stunned if Roseman wasn't fired in a year.

Giants have no excuses if they can't take advantage of the division. Washington has no QB, Dallas has question marks, and Eagles into a rebuild.

The time is now........


It really is. And I think the Giants will take advantage at least to some extent. They will be better in 2021. And even just a little better might be enough to win the division.

There were only two teams in the bidding  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 2/18/2021 12:04 pm : link
and once Wentz (or his advisers) let it be known he wasn’t interested in Chicago, the Eagles had no leverage.
That  
AcidTest : 2/18/2021 12:05 pm : link
is a great deal for Indy. They are obviously banking on Wentz returning to his form from before 2020. That is a defensible decision especially given the relatively low compensation. The main benefit to Philly is that they get rid of Wentz's contract. The compensation is undoubtedly a lot less than what they were hoping to get. I agree that this increases the chance Philly takes a QB at #6. Hurts will not prevent them from doing so.
RE: RE: RE: That's a pretty good deal for Philly  
djm : 2/18/2021 12:06 pm : link
In comment 15156236 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 15156222 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


In comment 15156217 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


could have been a lot worse...



I don't agree. Look up the historical QB trades, this is a lot less than the likes of Foles/Bradford. And the Colts must not care about the money if they traded for whom they assume will be their starter for atleast a few years.

I expected more.



Its not just the picks as I assume the Wentz contract is far more expensive than those and they are able to shed that. And I don't think there was much a competitive bidding for Wentz at this point so there may not have been even Plan B.

Good deal for Philly.


It's a failure no matter what simply based on how bad Wentz regressed and what preceded this move! They fired their super bowl winning HC! And god forbid if Wentz were ever to figure shit out in Indy. I pray that happens.

It might have been a necessary trade. Just like the KNicks dealing KP was "necessary"--it was still a huge fuck up and letting things even get to this point was crazy.


If Wentz is a good QB again this will go down as one of the worst trades in NFL history.
..  
Sean : 2/18/2021 12:07 pm : link
The return essentially is a 2021 third round pick and 2022 first.

Mike Garafolo
@MikeGarafolo
The conditional second-rounder in 2022 becomes a first-rounder if Wentz plays 75 percent of the snaps or 70 percent and the team makes the playoffs.
Wentz is not a free agent until 2025...  
ryanmkeane : 2/18/2021 12:08 pm : link
that is incredible. What a great deal for him when he signed that.
Sucks they were able to get anything.  
rasbutant : 2/18/2021 12:08 pm : link
Still not bad for Eagles. The 1st is likely to be earned. They got to use him and then got some of the cost back. Overall net cost isn't bad for a starting QB for 5yrs.

I'm sure there would be a lot of happy BBI'ers on here if the Giants were able to sell Jones for a 1st and 3rd after his 5th year.

RE: ..  
Sammo85 : 2/18/2021 12:09 pm : link
In comment 15156246 Sean said:
Quote:
The return essentially is a 2021 third round pick and 2022 first.

Mike Garafolo
@MikeGarafolo
The conditional second-rounder in 2022 becomes a first-rounder if Wentz plays 75 percent of the snaps or 70 percent and the team makes the playoffs.


It's not a great return. It's a late 3rd rounder this year and by it's own conditions a late 1st rounder, for player that probably won't help any for 2-3 years to come.
RE: ..  
robbieballs2003 : 2/18/2021 12:09 pm : link
In comment 15156246 Sean said:
Quote:
The return essentially is a 2021 third round pick and 2022 first.

Mike Garafolo
@MikeGarafolo
The conditional second-rounder in 2022 becomes a first-rounder if Wentz plays 75 percent of the snaps or 70 percent and the team makes the playoffs.


Reich is going to bench Wentz every 4th quarter even if Indy has the lead and it'll be okay since they are not disrespecting the game. Hahaha.
RE: RE: RE: RE: That's a pretty good deal for Philly  
Jimmy Googs : 2/18/2021 12:09 pm : link
In comment 15156245 djm said:
Quote:
In comment 15156236 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


In comment 15156222 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


In comment 15156217 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


could have been a lot worse...



I don't agree. Look up the historical QB trades, this is a lot less than the likes of Foles/Bradford. And the Colts must not care about the money if they traded for whom they assume will be their starter for atleast a few years.

I expected more.



Its not just the picks as I assume the Wentz contract is far more expensive than those and they are able to shed that. And I don't think there was much a competitive bidding for Wentz at this point so there may not have been even Plan B.

Good deal for Philly.



It's a failure no matter what simply based on how bad Wentz regressed and what preceded this move! They fired their super bowl winning HC! And god forbid if Wentz were ever to figure shit out in Indy. I pray that happens.

It might have been a necessary trade. Just like the KNicks dealing KP was "necessary"--it was still a huge fuck up and letting things even get to this point was crazy.


If Wentz is a good QB again this will go down as one of the worst trades in NFL history.


Only speaking of this transaction which had to happen before March 19th, not the rest of your piling on.

Philly was between a rock and a hardplace here, wake up...
RE: phew  
bw in dc : 2/18/2021 12:12 pm : link
In comment 15156214 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
really good news on the minimal haul. Goes to show what the league thinks of him and that contract. He basically netted far less than QB's of the past who were older and not as good.


Not sure about that. Once Philly tipped their hand that they were trading Wentz, I believe they lost some leverage in a trade. Why do you think the Texans are saying they won't trade Watson?

Regardless, Indy gets to take a chance to reunite Wentz with Reich without yielding a lot of assets.
Great deal for Colts  
ZogZerg : 2/18/2021 12:13 pm : link
Only cost them a 3rd and future 2nd to see if they can turn Wentz back into a franchise QB. If he does, then it will be well worth the 2 changing to a 1.
.  
Britt in VA : 2/18/2021 12:13 pm : link
Quote:
Zach Berman
@ZBerm
· 13m
The Eagles spent five draft picks to acquire Carson Wentz in 2016. They gave him a $128M contract 20 months ago.

They're now taking on a cap hit in excess $33M to essentially get out of the contract and get a 2021 3rd-round pick and a 2022 2nd or 1st-rd pick.
Good trade  
jestersdead : 2/18/2021 12:13 pm : link
Allows the Giants to low ball for Watson. The Goff/Stafford trade nearly made it impossible to after Watson, now the playing field is leveled. Disgruntled QBs don't go for as much in trades
$33 million  
GiantsRage2007 : 2/18/2021 12:14 pm : link
To buy a 3rd round pick in 2021 and a late first in 2022

and now you need a qb

No excuse to absolutely pound Philly the next 2 years they are taking the big bath and should suck
If I was the owner of the Rams  
Captplanet : 2/18/2021 12:14 pm : link
I would fire my GM. He traded a QB as good as if not better than Wentz, 2 first-round picks, and a Third for Matt Stafford. I know Stafford is a better QB than Wentz, but he's not 2 firsts, a third, and a Superbowl starting QB better.
RE: If I was the owner of the Rams  
robbieballs2003 : 2/18/2021 12:14 pm : link
In comment 15156260 Captplanet said:
Quote:
I would fire my GM. He traded a QB as good as if not better than Wentz, 2 first-round picks, and a Third for Matt Stafford. I know Stafford is a better QB than Wentz, but he's not 2 firsts, a third, and a Superbowl starting QB better.


McVay runs the show there.
RE: RE: If I was the owner of the Rams  
Captplanet : 2/18/2021 12:17 pm : link
In comment 15156263 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
In comment 15156260 Captplanet said:


Quote:


I would fire my GM. He traded a QB as good as if not better than Wentz, 2 first-round picks, and a Third for Matt Stafford. I know Stafford is a better QB than Wentz, but he's not 2 firsts, a third, and a Superbowl starting QB better.



McVay runs the show there.


He better win the Superbowl in the next 2 years, because that is an old team with no young talent in the wings.
And a high payroll
You pay the wrong QB and this is what you get  
Go Terps : 2/18/2021 12:17 pm : link
That said, the Eagles are doing the right thing in not chasing the sunk cost. Acknowledge it's over and move on.

But man did they fuck up paying him.
RE: Great deal for Colts  
bw in dc : 2/18/2021 12:18 pm : link
In comment 15156256 ZogZerg said:
Quote:
Only cost them a 3rd and future 2nd to see if they can turn Wentz back into a franchise QB. If he does, then it will be well worth the 2 changing to a 1.


I basically said the same thing. Ballard did a nice job here.
There is no way to describe this as anything  
Section331 : 2/18/2021 12:18 pm : link
but a complete clusterfuck for Philly. From the assets they gave up to draft Wentz, to the enormous contract they gave him, and now to sell him off for pennies on the dollar? Wow.

The dead cap money alone is going to handicap them, and that is without factoring in the traded picks. They mishandled this from the start. I don't see how they wouldn't have been better off just keeping him to see if he could get his act together.

It is a great deal for Indy. If it doesn't work out, it's not the end of the world, but if it does, they got a steal. That is a well-run organization, somewhat surprising given what a dipshit their owner is.
Yep, LA is all in.  
robbieballs2003 : 2/18/2021 12:18 pm : link
When McVay first took over he was doing this with first round picks. I kept saying his window is short but it has been open longer than I originally thought but this seems like the last big hail mary.
Haha  
Straw Hat : 2/18/2021 12:19 pm : link
So much for those green idiots getting a “stafford deal”.
I’m old enough...  
Chris in Philly : 2/18/2021 12:19 pm : link
to remember Howie thinking he would get two firsts for him. Anyone painting this as a win for the Eagles is delusional. Or arguing in extreme bad faith.
$33.8m dead cap hit for Philly  
Sean : 2/18/2021 12:21 pm : link
.
Well at least now i can root for him!  
rasbutant : 2/18/2021 12:21 pm : link
really liked him coming into the draft, and seems like a good guy, but on the Eagles I had to root for him to fail.
RE: You pay the wrong QB and this is what you get  
bw in dc : 2/18/2021 12:22 pm : link
In comment 15156266 Go Terps said:
Quote:
That said, the Eagles are doing the right thing in not chasing the sunk cost. Acknowledge it's over and move on.

But man did they fuck up paying him.


They took a chance and it didn't work out for a variety of reasons. Because this isn't all on Wentz for Philly's decline this year. They have been very competitive since the contract.

But you are right - they accepted the end and decided not to let this drag on. Take the hit and move on...
This is what happens when you are wrong about your QB  
Mike from Ohio : 2/18/2021 12:22 pm : link
and sign him to a second contract. If you have to think about whether or not a QB gets a second contract your best bet is to let him walk.

With the money and development invested in the position, you either know you have your guy or you let him walk and try again.
RE: RE: RE: That's a pretty good deal for Philly  
UConn4523 : 2/18/2021 12:22 pm : link
In comment 15156236 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 15156222 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


In comment 15156217 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


could have been a lot worse...



I don't agree. Look up the historical QB trades, this is a lot less than the likes of Foles/Bradford. And the Colts must not care about the money if they traded for whom they assume will be their starter for atleast a few years.

I expected more.



Its not just the picks as I assume the Wentz contract is far more expensive than those and they are able to shed that. And I don't think there was much a competitive bidding for Wentz at this point so there may not have been even Plan B.

Good deal for Philly.


The contract doesn't mean much when its now your starter. You'd kill the Giants for this deal. Indy gave up minimal picks for a former MVP candidate whom is better than anyone they've had since Luck by a wide margin. He just went to a greatly upgraded roster.

Great deal for Indy.
RE: Wentz is not a free agent until 2025...  
HomerJones45 : 2/18/2021 12:23 pm : link
In comment 15156248 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
that is incredible. What a great deal for him when he signed that.
In a year or two, that contract will seem like a reasonable deal for a starting qb. If Wentz puts up his three year average prior to last season of 27 passing td and 7 picks, Indy will pay it gladly.

You guys wait and see what Danny Dimes asks for when extension time comes.
So much for the two second round picks  
johnnyb : 2/18/2021 12:24 pm : link
the Eagles were rumored to be asking for Wentz.

I will root had for the Colts to win twelve games. I agree with the above post where the Eagles received pennies on the dollar for the investment they made in Wentz, both in players and dollars.

If Wentz works out for the Colts- and I think the reunion with Reich is huge- and the second rounder becomes a first, still advantage Colts. They can cut Wentz at any time with no cap ramifications.

OBJ netted more than Wentz!
RE: RE: If I was the owner of the Rams  
Sammo85 : 2/18/2021 12:24 pm : link
In comment 15156263 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
In comment 15156260 Captplanet said:


Quote:


I would fire my GM. He traded a QB as good as if not better than Wentz, 2 first-round picks, and a Third for Matt Stafford. I know Stafford is a better QB than Wentz, but he's not 2 firsts, a third, and a Superbowl starting QB better.



McVay runs the show there.


Yup. Snead has escaped the axe a couple times but McVay likes him. And McVay kinda knows he's probably got a window here for next couple years before it potentially breaks apart.

Not easiest division either with Niners, Cards, Hawks although depending on what happens with Wilson (think he stays), could be more Niners-Rams competition right now unless Kingsbury/Murray get it going.
Not suggesting Indy overpaid. But since Eagles were  
chick310 : 2/18/2021 12:25 pm : link
committed to shedding Wentz and HAD to do so in the next few weeks otherwise $10M+ of bonuses come due there was very little leverage here. And seems like Indy may have been the last interested team so even less leverage for Eagles to negotiate the bid/ask.

Philadelphia was fortunate to come out of this with a few decent picks while the ultimate goal was to rid him and his ugly contract from the books.

This makes me wonder...  
bw in dc : 2/18/2021 12:25 pm : link
what the hell would Jones get in the trade market if Philly can only scrape a 3rd and conditional 2nd for Wentz...
RE: RE: phew  
UConn4523 : 2/18/2021 12:26 pm : link
In comment 15156255 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15156214 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


really good news on the minimal haul. Goes to show what the league thinks of him and that contract. He basically netted far less than QB's of the past who were older and not as good.



Not sure about that. Once Philly tipped their hand that they were trading Wentz, I believe they lost some leverage in a trade. Why do you think the Texans are saying they won't trade Watson?

Regardless, Indy gets to take a chance to reunite Wentz with Reich without yielding a lot of assets.


How it happened is irrelevant. I'm simply looking at what the Eagles got and its minimal, and now looks like they can't really move up in the draft to get their QB without leveraging the future.

Watson is a top QB and is publicly unhappy. I think the Texans don't want to trade him and are trying to repair the relationship. Completely different scenarios.
In Roseweed We Turn To Dust  
ghost718 : 2/18/2021 12:26 pm : link
.
RE: This makes me wonder...  
Chris in Philly : 2/18/2021 12:27 pm : link
In comment 15156283 bw in dc said:
Quote:
what the hell would Jones get in the trade market if Philly can only scrape a 3rd and conditional 2nd for Wentz...


Do you think Wentz’s contract, his demand for a trade, and his toxic relationship with the front office has anything to do with that or do we just ignore that to try to make a point?
RE: RE: Wentz is not a free agent until 2025...  
giants#1 : 2/18/2021 12:27 pm : link
In comment 15156278 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
In comment 15156248 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


that is incredible. What a great deal for him when he signed that.

In a year or two, that contract will seem like a reasonable deal for a starting qb. If Wentz puts up his three year average prior to last season of 27 passing td and 7 picks, Indy will pay it gladly.

You guys wait and see what Danny Dimes asks for when extension time comes.


Excluding the pro-rated signing bonus, which the Eagles are on the hook for, it already is a solid deal for a starting QB. His cap hit for Indy will be <$25M per season and there's no guaranteed money.
Conditions  
pjcas18 : 2/18/2021 12:27 pm : link
for 2nd to become a 1st:

The conditions of the 2022 pick turning into a first are as followed:

- Wentz reaches 75% of the offensive snaps in 2021
- 70% of the offensive snaps and Colts make the playoffs
Look for Eagles  
jeff57 : 2/18/2021 12:27 pm : link
To try to move up to 2 or 3 to get Wilson or Fields.
RE: Eagles  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/18/2021 12:28 pm : link
In comment 15156229 djm said:
Quote:
just sold their former stud QB for pennies on the dollar. They traded triple what they sold him for.

Not that I blame Philly, but it is astounding the leeway BBI shows for other teams while crushing NYG's every move.

This is NOT a good moment for PHilly. Not in any way shape or form. Good for them they escaped the big bad wolf of salary cap--they still gave up the QB that was their crown jewel not very long ago.

If the Colts turn him around the Eagles are going to look absolutely ridiculous. They wacked the HC and then wacked the QB.


Yep. But not surprisingly, Jimmy Googs calls it a good move.

The football knowledge on that dupe is low.
RE: Conditions  
robbieballs2003 : 2/18/2021 12:28 pm : link
In comment 15156289 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
for 2nd to become a 1st:

The conditions of the 2022 pick turning into a first are as followed:

- Wentz reaches 75% of the offensive snaps in 2021
- 70% of the offensive snaps and Colts make the playoffs


It was posted above. I had a funny reply to it but I guess it got lost in the shuffle.
RE: RE: ..  
robbieballs2003 : 2/18/2021 12:29 pm : link
In comment 15156251 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
In comment 15156246 Sean said:


Quote:


The return essentially is a 2021 third round pick and 2022 first.

Mike Garafolo
@MikeGarafolo
The conditional second-rounder in 2022 becomes a first-rounder if Wentz plays 75 percent of the snaps or 70 percent and the team makes the playoffs.



Reich is going to bench Wentz every 4th quarter even if Indy has the lead and it'll be okay since they are not disrespecting the game. Hahaha.


Here it was. I'd love to see Philly fans respond if this really happened.
Good trade for Indy  
montanagiant : 2/18/2021 12:29 pm : link
But the guy is so injury-prone it's like getting a brittle glass. Talented kid but he has had injury issues dating back to his HS days
RE: Eagles  
Dr. D : 2/18/2021 12:30 pm : link
In comment 15156229 djm said:
Quote:

If the Colts turn him around the Eagles are going to look absolutely ridiculous


Here's to the Eagles looking absolutely ridiculous! I will drink to that! More than once!
So let's get this straight....  
Britt in VA : 2/18/2021 12:30 pm : link
Wentz and Goff, drafted #1 and #2 overall in 2016, are traded 19 days apart.

Both were rewarded with big second contracts that the teams that drafted them had to eat and now are trading them away for pennies on the dollar to get out of it. The Rams even had to GIVE UP a 1st round pick to get out of it.

So which moves are the ones that set franchises back 5 years again?
RE: RE: RE: RE: That's a pretty good deal for Philly  
Jimmy Googs : 2/18/2021 12:30 pm : link
In comment 15156277 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 15156236 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


In comment 15156222 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


In comment 15156217 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


could have been a lot worse...



I don't agree. Look up the historical QB trades, this is a lot less than the likes of Foles/Bradford. And the Colts must not care about the money if they traded for whom they assume will be their starter for atleast a few years.

I expected more.



Its not just the picks as I assume the Wentz contract is far more expensive than those and they are able to shed that. And I don't think there was much a competitive bidding for Wentz at this point so there may not have been even Plan B.

Good deal for Philly.



The contract doesn't mean much when its now your starter. You'd kill the Giants for this deal. Indy gave up minimal picks for a former MVP candidate whom is better than anyone they've had since Luck by a wide margin. He just went to a greatly upgraded roster.

Great deal for Indy.


I didn't say is was a bad deal for Indy.

Only suggested Philly should be pleased it got some decent picks to go along with shedding a god-awful contract which was the goal. And with seemingly only one bidder (Indy) that is not an easy negotiating position.

It could have been far worse. Good deal for Philly.
Shedding a godawful...  
Chris in Philly : 2/18/2021 12:32 pm : link
contract that THEY just gave him less than 2 years ago. Some of you sure grade on a fucked up curve.
RE: You pay the wrong QB and this is what you get  
HomerJones45 : 2/18/2021 12:33 pm : link
In comment 15156266 Go Terps said:
Quote:
That said, the Eagles are doing the right thing in not chasing the sunk cost. Acknowledge it's over and move on.

But man did they fuck up paying him.
He earned it by his play over a 3 year period. He had a bad year- it happens and in a year or two, that contract will be reasonable for a starting qb. Hell, for all the hand wringing about his contract, his cap hit this season is $25 million and Sporttrac lists the average annual value of his contract as 8th. What do you think these guys get paid?

The Eagles did the same thing we did when the owners panicked after Manning had a bad year, shit-canned the offense that made him a star and saddled him with Aaron Rodgers' coffee go for.
there's no proof  
UConn4523 : 2/18/2021 12:35 pm : link
there was only 1 interested team. Its illogical to think there weren't more interested teams, IMO. Half the league wants to upgrade their QB - those numbers just don't add up.

I also think there's a decent amount of fair market value that has to be included anyway. Its not like they were going to part with him for a 4th or something ridiculous. The potential future 1st makes it better than I originally thought - if that is triggered than its definitely a lot better but a 3rd and 2nd is peanuts in the grand scheme of things. More importantly, it makes it harder for them to move up this year.
RE: RE: Eagles  
Jimmy Googs : 2/18/2021 12:35 pm : link
In comment 15156292 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
In comment 15156229 djm said:


Quote:


just sold their former stud QB for pennies on the dollar. They traded triple what they sold him for.

Not that I blame Philly, but it is astounding the leeway BBI shows for other teams while crushing NYG's every move.

This is NOT a good moment for PHilly. Not in any way shape or form. Good for them they escaped the big bad wolf of salary cap--they still gave up the QB that was their crown jewel not very long ago.

If the Colts turn him around the Eagles are going to look absolutely ridiculous. They wacked the HC and then wacked the QB.



Yep. But not surprisingly, Jimmy Googs calls it a good move.

The football knowledge on that dupe is low.


As you would say, its the contrarian in me I guess.

It's just ponderous you can't offer much else here...
Getting rid of a Pro Bowl 29 year old quarterback  
ghost718 : 2/18/2021 12:35 pm : link
after 1 subpar year

That's like a move you'd hear proposed on Twitter
djm:  
Victor in CT : 2/18/2021 12:36 pm : link
"Not that I blame Philly, but it is astounding the leeway BBI shows for other teams while crushing NYG's every move."

spot on.
RE: there's no proof  
Jimmy Googs : 2/18/2021 12:38 pm : link
In comment 15156302 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
there was only 1 interested team. Its illogical to think there weren't more interested teams, IMO. Half the league wants to upgrade their QB - those numbers just don't add up.

I also think there's a decent amount of fair market value that has to be included anyway. Its not like they were going to part with him for a 4th or something ridiculous. The potential future 1st makes it better than I originally thought - if that is triggered than its definitely a lot better but a 3rd and 2nd is peanuts in the grand scheme of things. More importantly, it makes it harder for them to move up this year.


Only suggested there was Indy left as that seemed to be widely reported. Have nothing better to assume either way.
I do not like Wentz  
UConn4523 : 2/18/2021 12:38 pm : link
I think he has major flaws but he was also saddled with a similar supporting cast that Jones was. It shouldn't be shocking that he stunk in 2020.

If he can figure out a way to stay healthy he will be very productive in Indy.
RE: Shedding a godawful...  
Kyle_ : 2/18/2021 12:41 pm : link
In comment 15156299 Chris in Philly said:
Quote:
contract that THEY just gave him less than 2 years ago. Some of you sure grade on a fucked up curve.

It's akin to purchasing a stock at $100, watching it go up to $120 before implosion, and then when it drops to $30 and is about to drop to $10, selling at $30.

The entire Carson Wentz ordeal, from March 2016 until February 2021, is a colossal fuck up that's been wonderful to watch. Fuck them.

This trade itself seems like an overpay from Indy given Philly's desperation.

Remarking that it's a "good deal" for Philly is looking at the last act: bailing from an investment after a big loss before incurring extra losses.

That's it. I can give Philly a B for this trade while giving them a glorious F for the entire Wentz ordeal: the one B at the end raises their grade from a 25 to 30.

Now and forever: fuck them.
RE: RE: This makes me wonder...  
mfsd : 2/18/2021 12:42 pm : link
In comment 15156287 Chris in Philly said:
Quote:
In comment 15156283 bw in dc said:


Quote:


what the hell would Jones get in the trade market if Philly can only scrape a 3rd and conditional 2nd for Wentz...



Do you think Wentz’s contract, his demand for a trade, and his toxic relationship with the front office has anything to do with that or do we just ignore that to try to make a point?


Lol. Seriously.
RE: Shedding a godawful...  
Jimmy Googs : 2/18/2021 12:43 pm : link
In comment 15156299 Chris in Philly said:
Quote:
contract that THEY just gave him less than 2 years ago. Some of you sure grade on a fucked up curve.


The contract was awful and they paid for a good bit of it. They get a bad grade for that without question.

But this is the deal to get out from under the rest of it so they don't keep paying for it. A separate better grade.
RE: RE: Shedding a godawful...  
giants#1 : 2/18/2021 12:44 pm : link
In comment 15156313 Kyle_ said:
Quote:
In comment 15156299 Chris in Philly said:


Quote:


contract that THEY just gave him less than 2 years ago. Some of you sure grade on a fucked up curve.


It's akin to purchasing a stock at $100, watching it go up to $120 before implosion, and then when it drops to $30 and is about to drop to $10, selling at $30.

The entire Carson Wentz ordeal, from March 2016 until February 2021, is a colossal fuck up that's been wonderful to watch. Fuck them.

This trade itself seems like an overpay from Indy given Philly's desperation.

Remarking that it's a "good deal" for Philly is looking at the last act: bailing from an investment after a big loss before incurring extra losses.

That's it. I can give Philly a B for this trade while giving them a glorious F for the entire Wentz ordeal: the one B at the end raises their grade from a 25 to 30.

Now and forever: fuck them.


Great analogy and well said.
Enough about how “well run” the Eagles are..  
Sean : 2/18/2021 12:44 pm : link
Quote:
Zach Berman
@ZBerm
The Eagles spent five draft picks to acquire Carson Wentz in 2016. They gave him a $128M contract 20 months ago.

They're now taking on a cap hit in excess $33M to essentially get out of the contract and get a 2021 3rd-round pick and a 2022 2nd or 1st-rd pick.
RE: RE: Shedding a godawful...  
Jimmy Googs : 2/18/2021 12:45 pm : link
In comment 15156313 Kyle_ said:
Quote:
In comment 15156299 Chris in Philly said:


Quote:


contract that THEY just gave him less than 2 years ago. Some of you sure grade on a fucked up curve.


It's akin to purchasing a stock at $100, watching it go up to $120 before implosion, and then when it drops to $30 and is about to drop to $10, selling at $30.

The entire Carson Wentz ordeal, from March 2016 until February 2021, is a colossal fuck up that's been wonderful to watch. Fuck them.

This trade itself seems like an overpay from Indy given Philly's desperation.

Remarking that it's a "good deal" for Philly is looking at the last act: bailing from an investment after a big loss before incurring extra losses.

That's it. I can give Philly a B for this trade while giving them a glorious F for the entire Wentz ordeal: the one B at the end raises their grade from a 25 to 30.

Now and forever: fuck them.


Would agree, especially the last line...
Jimmy Googs..  
Sean : 2/18/2021 12:45 pm : link
You must love the Beckham trade then.
RE: RE: You pay the wrong QB and this is what you get  
Go Terps : 2/18/2021 12:45 pm : link
In comment 15156300 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
In comment 15156266 Go Terps said:


Quote:


That said, the Eagles are doing the right thing in not chasing the sunk cost. Acknowledge it's over and move on.

But man did they fuck up paying him.

He earned it by his play over a 3 year period. He had a bad year- it happens and in a year or two, that contract will be reasonable for a starting qb. Hell, for all the hand wringing about his contract, his cap hit this season is $25 million and Sporttrac lists the average annual value of his contract as 8th. What do you think these guys get paid?

The Eagles did the same thing we did when the owners panicked after Manning had a bad year, shit-canned the offense that made him a star and saddled him with Aaron Rodgers' coffee go for.


The Eagles won the title without him. As someone (me) once said, we saw how vital he wasn't.
Wayback machine is fun - ( New Window )
Too many people are getting bent out of shape and think  
robbieballs2003 : 2/18/2021 12:47 pm : link
Their opinion is better than others here.

It's perspective. I think it is a good deal for Philly given the current situation. They have a new staff. There were rumblings for years about Wentz and that locker room with leaks to the media about Wentz freezing certain players out. There was more to it than that. His injury history is a huge concern. Also, everybody keeps talking about the contract and saying it isn't bad. You're right, it isn't bad for a team that has him as a starting QB. But what those people are ignoring is that it limits who are players to trade for that contract. A team like the Saints would probably love to be in on Wentz but can't afford to make that work especially in an offseason where the salary cap is decreasing. The options are limited so if Philly is able to get a first in this deal then good for them.

Now there is the other side of the coin. If you look big picture and say the Eagles gave up a ton to get him in the first place, gave him a huge deal, and got pennies on the dollar then you are also correct when you look at the big picture. It was far from ideal and what Philly wanted out of him. I will say that they did win a SB with him on the roster (although Foles was the starter during the SB) so if Philly had to go through all of this again they'd sign up for it again.

We cannot ignore the current landscape though. Do you think it is right to have a HC get hired and leave him with this circus if that isn't what he wants? It sounded like the only one that really wanted to keep Wentz was Roseman. That could be a toxic situation. Also, Philly has a lot of maneuvering to do this offseason just to get to the black in regards to the cap. This was always going to be a rebuilding year in some capacity. This is the Eagles opportunity to fix their cap moving forward and let the new regime build it in their eyes. It doesn't mean it'll be the right way but now was the time to do it.

Personally, I think Wentz was a product of his supporting cast this year. He had jack shit to help him. He is better than he showed in 2020 but if the new staff wants him gone then that is the path they laid out.
RE: If I was the owner of the Rams  
Carson53 : 2/18/2021 12:48 pm : link
In comment 15156260 Captplanet said:
Quote:
I would fire my GM. He traded a QB as good as if not better than Wentz, 2 first-round picks, and a Third for Matt Stafford. I know Stafford is a better QB than Wentz, but he's not 2 firsts, a third, and a Superbowl starting QB better.
.

The Rams definitely gave up too much, what has Stafford
ever won in Detroit?
Did Wentz have any playoff success before they paid him?  
Ten Ton Hammer : 2/18/2021 12:49 pm : link
Saw a stat on twitter that derrick Henry has more postseason passing TDs than Wentz.
I'm not sure why everyone assumes Philly drafts a QB  
AdamBrag : 2/18/2021 12:50 pm : link
Hurts had more 300 yard games then Jones last year and he only started 4 games.
RE: Too many people are getting bent out of shape and think  
Thegratefulhead : 2/18/2021 12:53 pm : link
In comment 15156323 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
Their opinion is better than others here.

It's perspective. I think it is a good deal for Philly given the current situation. They have a new staff. There were rumblings for years about Wentz and that locker room with leaks to the media about Wentz freezing certain players out. There was more to it than that. His injury history is a huge concern. Also, everybody keeps talking about the contract and saying it isn't bad. You're right, it isn't bad for a team that has him as a starting QB. But what those people are ignoring is that it limits who are players to trade for that contract. A team like the Saints would probably love to be in on Wentz but can't afford to make that work especially in an offseason where the salary cap is decreasing. The options are limited so if Philly is able to get a first in this deal then good for them.

Now there is the other side of the coin. If you look big picture and say the Eagles gave up a ton to get him in the first place, gave him a huge deal, and got pennies on the dollar then you are also correct when you look at the big picture. It was far from ideal and what Philly wanted out of him. I will say that they did win a SB with him on the roster (although Foles was the starter during the SB) so if Philly had to go through all of this again they'd sign up for it again.

We cannot ignore the current landscape though. Do you think it is right to have a HC get hired and leave him with this circus if that isn't what he wants? It sounded like the only one that really wanted to keep Wentz was Roseman. That could be a toxic situation. Also, Philly has a lot of maneuvering to do this offseason just to get to the black in regards to the cap. This was always going to be a rebuilding year in some capacity. This is the Eagles opportunity to fix their cap moving forward and let the new regime build it in their eyes. It doesn't mean it'll be the right way but now was the time to do it.

Personally, I think Wentz was a product of his supporting cast this year. He had jack shit to help him. He is better than he showed in 2020 but if the new staff wants him gone then that is the path they laid out.
Really good post.
RE: Jimmy Googs..  
Jimmy Googs : 2/18/2021 12:53 pm : link
In comment 15156321 Sean said:
Quote:
You must love the Beckham trade then.


Yeah, was always okay with the trade part.

Just wish Giants didn't backfill it with a god-awful Tate deal. Wrong type, wrong age, bad contract.
RE: Haha  
Gatorade Dunk : 2/18/2021 12:54 pm : link
In comment 15156271 Straw Hat said:
Quote:
So much for those green idiots getting a “stafford deal”.

Well, they didn't have to absorb a "goff deal" in the process.
RE: RE: If I was the owner of the Rams  
Britt in VA : 2/18/2021 12:55 pm : link
In comment 15156324 Carson53 said:
Quote:
In comment 15156260 Captplanet said:


Quote:


I would fire my GM. He traded a QB as good as if not better than Wentz, 2 first-round picks, and a Third for Matt Stafford. I know Stafford is a better QB than Wentz, but he's not 2 firsts, a third, and a Superbowl starting QB better.

.

The Rams definitely gave up too much, what has Stafford
ever won in Detroit?


That's a great point, and I saw this stat mentioned somewhere:

Matt Stafford vs. teams with a .500 or better record: 12-62. But people here would bend over backwards to give up picks for Matt Stafford.
RE: I'm not sure why everyone assumes Philly drafts a QB  
UConn4523 : 2/18/2021 12:57 pm : link
In comment 15156327 AdamBrag said:
Quote:
Hurts had more 300 yard games then Jones last year and he only started 4 games.


I think its a very real possibility. The goal is to not pick at #6 or worse and it could be the best possible time to move up to get a QB you love. Look what they gave up to go from 8 to 2 for Wentz.

As for Hurts, hard to tell what they think of him. If I were an Eagles fan I'd fully support taking a QB at 6 or with a trade up and let the 2 QB's have at it - you can easily offload Hurts too.
I'd love Matt Stafford  
UConn4523 : 2/18/2021 12:57 pm : link
the 1 year with a legit defense they went 11-5. Horrendous franchise though, not sure what you expect him to do about that.
..  
Sean : 2/18/2021 12:59 pm : link
Quote:
Field Yates
@FieldYates
And with the trade of Carson Wentz, there will now not be a single QB drafted in the first round from 2009-2016 that is still with his original team.

0 out of 22 total.
.  
Britt in VA : 2/18/2021 1:00 pm : link
Quote:
Art Stapleton
@art_stapleton
·
55m
Eagles now take on the largest dead money cap hit in NFL history by trading Carson Wentz: $33.8 million.
RE: RE: RE: You pay the wrong QB and this is what you get  
speedywheels : 2/18/2021 1:01 pm : link
In comment 15156322 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15156300 HomerJones45 said:


Quote:


In comment 15156266 Go Terps said:


Quote:


That said, the Eagles are doing the right thing in not chasing the sunk cost. Acknowledge it's over and move on.

But man did they fuck up paying him.

He earned it by his play over a 3 year period. He had a bad year- it happens and in a year or two, that contract will be reasonable for a starting qb. Hell, for all the hand wringing about his contract, his cap hit this season is $25 million and Sporttrac lists the average annual value of his contract as 8th. What do you think these guys get paid?

The Eagles did the same thing we did when the owners panicked after Manning had a bad year, shit-canned the offense that made him a star and saddled him with Aaron Rodgers' coffee go for.



The Eagles won the title without him. As someone (me) once said, we saw how vital he wasn't. Wayback machine is fun - ( New Window )


LOL. So you're going to try tell us that Wentz did NOTHING to help them get there? He started 13 games, went 11-2 with a rating of 102.7. Had 3300 yards, 33 TD and only 7 INT.

But of course, you will do anything to try and spin your narrative.

Giving Wentz no credit for getting the team to the SB would be the same bullshit as saying that NYG won SB 25 without any credit going to Simms...

It could have been much worse for the Eagles  
George from PA : 2/18/2021 1:01 pm : link
He had to be moved by 3/19....getting a 3rd and possibly a 1st... Was fair enough.... considering Wentz and the Colts was holding all th cards.

The dead money the next 2 years is a killer...

I am not upset.
RE: RE: I'm not sure why everyone assumes Philly drafts a QB  
Jimmy Googs : 2/18/2021 1:01 pm : link
In comment 15156337 UConn4523 said:
Quote:


If I were an Eagles fan I'd fully support taking a QB at 6 or with a trade up and let the 2 QB's have at it - you can easily offload Hurts too.


Exactly.

And low and behold, they just picked up some extra collateral to help move on up as needed...
RE: Cap  
Beer Man : 2/18/2021 1:03 pm : link
In comment 15156225 Hilary said:
Quote:
Does this free 25 million cap space for Iglesias.
Nope, his bonus and prorated bonus are on the Igles and get accelerated to the 2021 season. They will be hit with $34M in dead money this year, but he will be off their books afterwards.
RE: djm:  
Producer : 2/18/2021 1:07 pm : link
In comment 15156305 Victor in CT said:
Quote:
"Not that I blame Philly, but it is astounding the leeway BBI shows for other teams while crushing NYG's every move."

spot on.


oh jeez stop being so sensitive..
RE: RE: RE: If I was the owner of the Rams  
Ten Ton Hammer : 2/18/2021 1:11 pm : link
In comment 15156335 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 15156324 Carson53 said:


Quote:


In comment 15156260 Captplanet said:


Quote:


I would fire my GM. He traded a QB as good as if not better than Wentz, 2 first-round picks, and a Third for Matt Stafford. I know Stafford is a better QB than Wentz, but he's not 2 firsts, a third, and a Superbowl starting QB better.

.

The Rams definitely gave up too much, what has Stafford
ever won in Detroit?



That's a great point, and I saw this stat mentioned somewhere:

Matt Stafford vs. teams with a .500 or better record: 12-62. But people here would bend over backwards to give up picks for Matt Stafford.


But we know Detroit is an incompetent franchise that has wasted the careers of hall of farmers. Why would we lay all the blame on that on one person's feet.

This line of thinking is why any player stuck on a dead end team should ask to be traded. If you don't put the franchise on you back and overcome the front office mistakes, you're the goat.
RE: Enough about how “well run” the Eagles are..  
jestersdead : 2/18/2021 1:11 pm : link
In comment 15156318 Sean said:
Quote:


Quote:


Zach Berman
@ZBerm
The Eagles spent five draft picks to acquire Carson Wentz in 2016. They gave him a $128M contract 20 months ago.

They're now taking on a cap hit in excess $33M to essentially get out of the contract and get a 2021 3rd-round pick and a 2022 2nd or 1st-rd pick.


Could you imagine if DG made those moves?
RE: RE: RE: RE: If I was the owner of the Rams  
Victor in CT : 2/18/2021 1:12 pm : link
In comment 15156354 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 15156335 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


In comment 15156324 Carson53 said:


Quote:


In comment 15156260 Captplanet said:


Quote:


I would fire my GM. He traded a QB as good as if not better than Wentz, 2 first-round picks, and a Third for Matt Stafford. I know Stafford is a better QB than Wentz, but he's not 2 firsts, a third, and a Superbowl starting QB better.

.

The Rams definitely gave up too much, what has Stafford
ever won in Detroit?



That's a great point, and I saw this stat mentioned somewhere:

Matt Stafford vs. teams with a .500 or better record: 12-62. But people here would bend over backwards to give up picks for Matt Stafford.



But we know Detroit is an incompetent franchise that has wasted the careers of hall of farmers. Why would we lay all the blame on that on one person's feet.

This line of thinking is why any player stuck on a dead end team should ask to be traded. If you don't put the franchise on you back and overcome the front office mistakes, you're the goat.


This line of thinking is SOP here.
RE: RE: RE: You pay the wrong QB and this is what you get  
Bill L : 2/18/2021 1:13 pm : link
In comment 15156322 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15156300 HomerJones45 said:


Quote:


In comment 15156266 Go Terps said:


Quote:


That said, the Eagles are doing the right thing in not chasing the sunk cost. Acknowledge it's over and move on.

But man did they fuck up paying him.

He earned it by his play over a 3 year period. He had a bad year- it happens and in a year or two, that contract will be reasonable for a starting qb. Hell, for all the hand wringing about his contract, his cap hit this season is $25 million and Sporttrac lists the average annual value of his contract as 8th. What do you think these guys get paid?

The Eagles did the same thing we did when the owners panicked after Manning had a bad year, shit-canned the offense that made him a star and saddled him with Aaron Rodgers' coffee go for.



The Eagles won the title without him. As someone (me) once said, we saw how vital he wasn't. Wayback machine is fun - ( New Window )


But it does kind of fly in the face of your other (more recent) posts that *all* you need is an elite QB and nobody else matters or is even needed on the field, doesn't it?
Would be nice if it comes down to the last game of the season...  
Milton : 2/18/2021 1:13 pm : link
...and the Colts pull Wentz for no other reason than it means giving up a 2nd round pick instead of a first in 2022.
RE: RE: Enough about how “well run” the Eagles are..  
Britt in VA : 2/18/2021 1:14 pm : link
In comment 15156355 jestersdead said:
Quote:
In comment 15156318 Sean said:


Quote:




Quote:


Zach Berman
@ZBerm
The Eagles spent five draft picks to acquire Carson Wentz in 2016. They gave him a $128M contract 20 months ago.

They're now taking on a cap hit in excess $33M to essentially get out of the contract and get a 2021 3rd-round pick and a 2022 2nd or 1st-rd pick.




Could you imagine if DG made those moves?


He would be absolutely eviscerated. And in no way, shape, or form would it EVER be called "a good deal". But here we are.
RE: RE: RE: RE: You pay the wrong QB and this is what you get  
Ten Ton Hammer : 2/18/2021 1:15 pm : link
In comment 15156360 Bill L said:
Quote:


But it does kind of fly in the face of your other (more recent) posts that *all* you need is an elite QB and nobody else matters or is even needed on the field, doesn't it?


I keep seeing this referenced as an opinion people have and I'm struggling to believe this is anything more than a strawman meant to fuel a narrative.
RE: RE: RE: I'm not sure why everyone assumes Philly drafts a QB  
giants#1 : 2/18/2021 1:16 pm : link
In comment 15156348 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 15156337 UConn4523 said:


Quote:




If I were an Eagles fan I'd fully support taking a QB at 6 or with a trade up and let the 2 QB's have at it - you can easily offload Hurts too.



Exactly.

And low and behold, they just picked up some extra collateral to help move on up as needed...


The picks they added would barely move the needle in a trade up to #2.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: You pay the wrong QB and this is what you get  
Bill L : 2/18/2021 1:18 pm : link
In comment 15156366 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 15156360 Bill L said:


Quote:




But it does kind of fly in the face of your other (more recent) posts that *all* you need is an elite QB and nobody else matters or is even needed on the field, doesn't it?



I keep seeing this referenced as an opinion people have and I'm struggling to believe this is anything more than a strawman meant to fuel a narrative.


I can see that.
RE: RE: This makes me wonder...  
bw in dc : 2/18/2021 1:18 pm : link
In comment 15156287 Chris in Philly said:
Quote:
In comment 15156283 bw in dc said:


Quote:


what the hell would Jones get in the trade market if Philly can only scrape a 3rd and conditional 2nd for Wentz...



Do you think Wentz’s contract, his demand for a trade, and his toxic relationship with the front office has anything to do with that or do we just ignore that to try to make a point?


I did consider that, yes.

And I considered he's had one losing season as the starter (2020), taken the Eagles to the playoffs three times, has been in the MVP hunt, and has shown he can make chicken salad.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I'm not sure why everyone assumes Philly drafts a QB  
UConn4523 : 2/18/2021 1:19 pm : link
In comment 15156367 giants#1 said:
Quote:
In comment 15156348 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


In comment 15156337 UConn4523 said:


Quote:




If I were an Eagles fan I'd fully support taking a QB at 6 or with a trade up and let the 2 QB's have at it - you can easily offload Hurts too.



Exactly.

And low and behold, they just picked up some extra collateral to help move on up as needed...



The picks they added would barely move the needle in a trade up to #2.


Right, this was my point. They will have to leverage atleast a future 1st now + more.
RE: RE: RE: RE: You pay the wrong QB and this is what you get  
Go Terps : 2/18/2021 1:21 pm : link
In comment 15156360 Bill L said:
Quote:
In comment 15156322 Go Terps said:


Quote:


In comment 15156300 HomerJones45 said:


Quote:


In comment 15156266 Go Terps said:


Quote:


That said, the Eagles are doing the right thing in not chasing the sunk cost. Acknowledge it's over and move on.

But man did they fuck up paying him.

He earned it by his play over a 3 year period. He had a bad year- it happens and in a year or two, that contract will be reasonable for a starting qb. Hell, for all the hand wringing about his contract, his cap hit this season is $25 million and Sporttrac lists the average annual value of his contract as 8th. What do you think these guys get paid?

The Eagles did the same thing we did when the owners panicked after Manning had a bad year, shit-canned the offense that made him a star and saddled him with Aaron Rodgers' coffee go for.



The Eagles won the title without him. As someone (me) once said, we saw how vital he wasn't. Wayback machine is fun - ( New Window )



But it does kind of fly in the face of your other (more recent) posts that *all* you need is an elite QB and nobody else matters or is even needed on the field, doesn't it?


Where did I say all you need is an elite quarterback?
Hurts barely completed over 50% of his passes  
jeff57 : 2/18/2021 1:22 pm : link
And had a 41.0 QBR. Doubt he’s the answer.
fans tend to overreact to everything  
ryanmkeane : 2/18/2021 1:28 pm : link
good or bad as soon as it happens (negative on Beckham and Williams trades, extremely negative on Jones at 6, positive on Solder signing, etc)

You have to wait a few years to see how the moves pan out. Unless you are doing something like the Colts did with Rivers where it was clear he was just playing for 1 season, these things tend to work themselves out over multiple seasons.

RE: fans tend to overreact to everything  
Britt in VA : 2/18/2021 1:29 pm : link
In comment 15156387 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
good or bad as soon as it happens (negative on Beckham and Williams trades, extremely negative on Jones at 6, positive on Solder signing, etc)

You have to wait a few years to see how the moves pan out. Unless you are doing something like the Colts did with Rivers where it was clear he was just playing for 1 season, these things tend to work themselves out over multiple seasons.


A lost art around here.
for instance  
ryanmkeane : 2/18/2021 1:29 pm : link
it appears Rams gave up a shitload for Stafford. If they flame out in the playoffs or don't make the playoffs with him, yeah it's a really bad trade

If they make the Super Bowl (or win it) with him, it's a great trade

If Colts are medicore with Wentz the next 2 seasons, it's bad. If they stay really competitive, make some playoff runs, it's great
RE: RE: fans tend to overreact to everything  
Big Blue '56 : 2/18/2021 1:37 pm : link
In comment 15156389 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 15156387 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


good or bad as soon as it happens (negative on Beckham and Williams trades, extremely negative on Jones at 6, positive on Solder signing, etc)

You have to wait a few years to see how the moves pan out. Unless you are doing something like the Colts did with Rivers where it was clear he was just playing for 1 season, these things tend to work themselves out over multiple seasons.




A lost art around here.


Around here? It was never, ever, an art in the first place
You don't have a few years in this league  
Go Terps : 2/18/2021 1:37 pm : link
Waiting a few years means new contracts, new coaches, new players. An NFL roster turns over naturally in 4 years.

There is no more waiting 5+ years to see if something worked out. By then you're assessing a completely different team.
RE: RE: RE: If I was the owner of the Rams  
Gatorade Dunk : 2/18/2021 1:38 pm : link
In comment 15156335 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 15156324 Carson53 said:


Quote:


In comment 15156260 Captplanet said:


Quote:


I would fire my GM. He traded a QB as good as if not better than Wentz, 2 first-round picks, and a Third for Matt Stafford. I know Stafford is a better QB than Wentz, but he's not 2 firsts, a third, and a Superbowl starting QB better.

.

The Rams definitely gave up too much, what has Stafford
ever won in Detroit?



That's a great point, and I saw this stat mentioned somewhere:

Matt Stafford vs. teams with a .500 or better record: 12-62. But people here would bend over backwards to give up picks for Matt Stafford.

If only he were 45-97 against teams with a .500 or better record, then you wouldn't have such a weird disdain for him.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I'm not sure why everyone assumes Philly drafts a QB  
Jimmy Googs : 2/18/2021 1:39 pm : link
In comment 15156367 giants#1 said:
Quote:
In comment 15156348 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


In comment 15156337 UConn4523 said:


Quote:




If I were an Eagles fan I'd fully support taking a QB at 6 or with a trade up and let the 2 QB's have at it - you can easily offload Hurts too.



Exactly.

And low and behold, they just picked up some extra collateral to help move on up as needed...



The picks they added would barely move the needle in a trade up to #2.


I said help, not consummate.

Some of you are on edge today...
RE: for instance  
Gatorade Dunk : 2/18/2021 1:39 pm : link
In comment 15156390 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
it appears Rams gave up a shitload for Stafford. If they flame out in the playoffs or don't make the playoffs with him, yeah it's a really bad trade

If they make the Super Bowl (or win it) with him, it's a great trade

If Colts are medicore with Wentz the next 2 seasons, it's bad. If they stay really competitive, make some playoff runs, it's great

I see you're still refusing to position this accurately.

The Rams gave up a ton for Stafford AND TO OFFLOAD GOFF'S CONTRACT.
I agree to an extent but this isnt the NBA  
UConn4523 : 2/18/2021 1:44 pm : link
salary dumps aren't really a thing. No one is trading for a player they don't want for multiple seasons, especially a QB, unless they see them actually playing and fitting in well.

The Rams had to trade Goff because it just wasn't working anymore. His contract made the suiters fewer, but those that were there wouldn't be interested if they didn't think anything of him.
RE: I agree to an extent but this isnt the NBA  
Gatorade Dunk : 2/18/2021 1:45 pm : link
In comment 15156418 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
salary dumps aren't really a thing. No one is trading for a player they don't want for multiple seasons, especially a QB, unless they see them actually playing and fitting in well.

The Rams had to trade Goff because it just wasn't working anymore. His contract made the suiters fewer, but those that were there wouldn't be interested if they didn't think anything of him.

Goff was the Brock Osweiler of that trade, and it's pretty obvious IMO.
Gatorade  
Go Terps : 2/18/2021 1:45 pm : link
Exactly - the Rams made a huge error in signing Goff, and have done well to rip the band-aid off.

The same can be said for the Eagles. This trade is the right move for them - they're doing the right thing. The IMMENSE error was paying Wentz. Now they're just starting the process of recovering from that error.

You pay a non-elite QB a second contract and this is what happens.

If you don't know by year 3 on a QB, he's almost certainly not worth paying.
RE: RE: RE: Enough about how “well run” the Eagles are..  
Jimmy Googs : 2/18/2021 1:46 pm : link
In comment 15156363 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 15156355 jestersdead said:


Quote:


In comment 15156318 Sean said:


Quote:




Quote:


Zach Berman
@ZBerm
The Eagles spent five draft picks to acquire Carson Wentz in 2016. They gave him a $128M contract 20 months ago.

They're now taking on a cap hit in excess $33M to essentially get out of the contract and get a 2021 3rd-round pick and a 2022 2nd or 1st-rd pick.




Could you imagine if DG made those moves?



He would be absolutely eviscerated. And in no way, shape, or form would it EVER be called "a good deal". But here we are.


DG wouldn't trade his franchise QB that is still under a rookie deal.

At least not yet...
RE: Gatorade  
Sean : 2/18/2021 1:48 pm : link
In comment 15156420 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Exactly - the Rams made a huge error in signing Goff, and have done well to rip the band-aid off.

The same can be said for the Eagles. This trade is the right move for them - they're doing the right thing. The IMMENSE error was paying Wentz. Now they're just starting the process of recovering from that error.

You pay a non-elite QB a second contract and this is what happens.

If you don't know by year 3 on a QB, he's almost certainly not worth paying.


That also applies to the Giants with Beckham to be fair. They paid him, but then ultimately got a bigger return than the Eagles did with Wentz.

In addition, the Giants have yet to pay Jones.
RE: RE: I agree to an extent but this isnt the NBA  
Jimmy Googs : 2/18/2021 1:49 pm : link
In comment 15156419 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15156418 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


salary dumps aren't really a thing. No one is trading for a player they don't want for multiple seasons, especially a QB, unless they see them actually playing and fitting in well.

The Rams had to trade Goff because it just wasn't working anymore. His contract made the suiters fewer, but those that were there wouldn't be interested if they didn't think anything of him.


Goff was the Brock Osweiler of that trade, and it's pretty obvious IMO.


Yep...
Terps  
ryanmkeane : 2/18/2021 1:51 pm : link
you really are a complete and utter disgrace to message board conversation. Who said 5 years? 5 years? Nobody said 5 years.

I'm talking about a few seasons. And yeah - every single NFL team in the history of the league lets their draft picks and trades develop unless they are a complete and utter disaster, which would bring them to cut the player or something of that nature.

You take what people say, completely change it around, to fit your own narrative, which makes completely zero sense. You are intolerable dude.
RE: Gatorade  
ryanmkeane : 2/18/2021 1:53 pm : link
In comment 15156420 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Exactly - the Rams made a huge error in signing Goff, and have done well to rip the band-aid off.


This is exactly what Dave Gettleman did with Odell Beckham.
RE: Terps  
Go Terps : 2/18/2021 1:53 pm : link
In comment 15156426 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
you really are a complete and utter disgrace to message board conversation. Who said 5 years? 5 years? Nobody said 5 years.

I'm talking about a few seasons. And yeah - every single NFL team in the history of the league lets their draft picks and trades develop unless they are a complete and utter disaster, which would bring them to cut the player or something of that nature.

You take what people say, completely change it around, to fit your own narrative, which makes completely zero sense. You are intolerable dude.


What a weird post.

How many seasons is "a few"?
RE: RE: Gatorade  
Go Terps : 2/18/2021 1:55 pm : link
In comment 15156427 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
In comment 15156420 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Exactly - the Rams made a huge error in signing Goff, and have done well to rip the band-aid off.




This is exactly what Dave Gettleman did with Odell Beckham.


Yes. Paid Beckham - huge error. Traded him - good move.

Would have been better to trade Beckham before paying him. Just like it would have been better to trade Goff and Wentz before they were paid.
What the Rams Did  
Samiam : 2/18/2021 1:55 pm : link
Rams gave up the extra 1st to unload Goff’s contract. Lions basically took an extra 1st to accept a bad contract. Rams expect to finish very strong with Stafford and go deep into the playoffs making their 1st pick a not very attractive pick. They’ve shown a willingness to trade premier draft choices over the past few years.

I think the Colts really made a good deal, the Eagles much less so. Wentz bonus money, what’s left of it, is charged to the Eagles this year. Colts are on the hook just for a very high salary. If Reich can turn Wentz around, they got a good QB without paying any bonus money until he is re-signed. If Wentz sucks, they get rid of him quickly and just pay the 3rd round pick this year and the 2nd in 22. All the Eagles did was get rid of what they think is a malcontent who can’t play. The Cap hit this year will be enormous and we’ll see going forward if the Eagles made the right move. Also, the Colts should a have a pretty good record making the draft choices less appealing. Either way, this is a good Colts move .
I don't know...  
ryanmkeane : 2/18/2021 1:55 pm : link
2 seasons? Daniel Jones is a rookie. There's a difference dude. But just like every single one of your posts - you compare every single decision as if it's the same.
RE: Terps  
Jimmy Googs : 2/18/2021 1:57 pm : link
In comment 15156426 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
you really are a complete and utter disgrace to message board conversation. Who said 5 years? 5 years? Nobody said 5 years.

I'm talking about a few seasons. And yeah - every single NFL team in the history of the league lets their draft picks and trades develop unless they are a complete and utter disaster, which would bring them to cut the player or something of that nature.

You take what people say, completely change it around, to fit your own narrative, which makes completely zero sense. You are intolerable dude.


on edge indeed...
Good deal for the Colts  
Rick in Dallas : 2/18/2021 1:58 pm : link
Philly getting ready to welcome Trey Lance. I now think 4 QB's go in the top 10 pushing a very good player to number 11.
With New England at number 15 I wonder if the Redskins try to move up in front of them to select Mac Jones who was impressive at the Senior Bowl practices. Could see 5 QB's chosen in the top 15.
Terps  
ryanmkeane : 2/18/2021 2:00 pm : link
you thought Peppers was a disaster too. You thought the Williams move was a disaster. I imagine you probably thought the Beckham trade was bad too. How did those end up working out?

You need to let things play out. Draft picks, free agency moves, trades....these are things that are not evaluated in a vacuum.
RE: I don't know...  
Go Terps : 2/18/2021 2:02 pm : link
In comment 15156434 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
2 seasons? Daniel Jones is a rookie. There's a difference dude. But just like every single one of your posts - you compare every single decision as if it's the same.


I don't understand. If we can start reaching conclusions after 2 seasons on quarterbacks, can we reach them on Jones? And Daniel Jones is a rookie?

You say a lot of negative things about me, but I have to be honest you don't sound like you have a mastery of making an argument, or even the english language.
Terps  
ryanmkeane : 2/18/2021 2:10 pm : link
I'm talking about trades and free agency moves....2 years is definitely enough time to evaluate that move.

Rookie QBs are different. You aren't paying them that much and sometimes it takes longer to develop. So...2 years? Sure. Giants obviously think they've seen stuff from Jones in his first 2 years to build around him more. If he was a disaster, which he's not...they'd obviously move along.

That's my point.
Maybe someone has already addressed this but -  
short lease : 2/18/2021 2:14 pm : link
I thought they fired Pederson because he did NOT want Wentz and the Eagles were were sticking WITH Wentz?

Now they trade him?

They must have wanted Pederson gone regardless.
Glad Hes Out Of the Division  
lax counsel : 2/18/2021 2:18 pm : link
Hope they stick with Hurts and really hope they are not targeting Zach Wilson. Would not want to see him twice a year as I think he is going to be a quality NFL qb.
ryan  
Go Terps : 2/18/2021 2:18 pm : link
I think this is a key sentence:

Quote:
If he was a disaster, which he's not...they'd obviously move along.


Two points:

1. If Jones isn't a disaster, then what's the definition of disaster? He's a #6 pick overall, his stats are poor, the offense is VERY poor with him at QB, and the Giants are 8-18 with him at quarterback.

If that's not a disaster two years in, then what is? There isn't much room for it to be worse...you're talking Jamarcus Russell/Dwayne Haskins/Ryan Leaf as the only level below him.

2. Would the Giants move on from him? They've shown us many times that they are very slow to acknowledge and move on from a bad situation. I'm not even 100% convinced they move on from him if he has a poor 2021. I'd hope they would, but I'm not 100% on it...their delusion runs deep.

And just curious, does this timeframe apply to Barkley? Because if it does...
Thread...  
Brown_Hornet : 2/18/2021 2:20 pm : link
...Killed.
Brock Osweiler was never a good QB  
UConn4523 : 2/18/2021 2:24 pm : link
in what world is that a legit comparison? Goff has a ton of flaws but he's a starting caliber QB with a 2:1 TD ratio and 42-27 record.
RE: Maybe someone has already addressed this but -  
robbieballs2003 : 2/18/2021 2:25 pm : link
In comment 15156451 short lease said:
Quote:
I thought they fired Pederson because he did NOT want Wentz and the Eagles were were sticking WITH Wentz?

Now they trade him?

They must have wanted Pederson gone regardless.


Nobody truly knows what happened but it seems as if Roseman was the Wentz fan but others weren't. Also, with the way the last game unfolded, there was talk that Pederson lost the locker room and giving him another year wouldn't do anything positive. I think that is why he was fired so late. In terms of trading Wentz it seems that since there were conflicting opinions between management and owner that they may have just let their new HC evaluate the QBs and go from there.
RE: ryan  
Britt in VA : 2/18/2021 2:27 pm : link
In comment 15156455 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I think this is a key sentence:



Quote:


If he was a disaster, which he's not...they'd obviously move along.



Two points:

1. If Jones isn't a disaster, then what's the definition of disaster? He's a #6 pick overall, his stats are poor, the offense is VERY poor with him at QB, and the Giants are 8-18 with him at quarterback.

If that's not a disaster two years in, then what is? There isn't much room for it to be worse...you're talking Jamarcus Russell/Dwayne Haskins/Ryan Leaf as the only level below him.

2. Would the Giants move on from him? They've shown us many times that they are very slow to acknowledge and move on from a bad situation. I'm not even 100% convinced they move on from him if he has a poor 2021. I'd hope they would, but I'm not 100% on it...their delusion runs deep.

And just curious, does this timeframe apply to Barkley? Because if it does...


Here's what does not compute for me, in your thinking Terps.

How do you say that about Jones, then turn around and say the Eagles SHOULD NOT have signed Wentz? Seriously? How do you determine that Wentz was merely a passenger on his team when he went 11-2, threw for 3500 yards, 33 TD's to 7 INT's, and a 102 QBR?

That's where you lose a lot of people. You do not consistently apply the logic you use.

If you DON'T re-sign Wentz, which you are saying they shouldn't have, who do you EVER re-sign?

Speaking of Barkley, isn't Lamar Jackson just as prone to wear and tear as a RB at this point, in terms of second contract? Do you sign him to the 40 million per year megadeal that is looming there?
Wentz was way overrated  
NoPeanutz : 2/18/2021 2:29 pm : link
and not a difference maker. He never justified his draft position, and he never justified his contract.

Normally, I am put off by many posters' negativity... but I agree with Terps 100% about how the Super Bowl utterly exposed him.

It was unbelievable when Phila paid him, and today they are lucky to get anything for him. And, as someone else above mentioned, they are extremely fortunate to be able to light up his cap hit in a throwaway season.
RE: RE: Maybe someone has already addressed this but -  
short lease : 2/18/2021 2:30 pm : link
In comment 15156458 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
In comment 15156451 short lease said:


Quote:


I thought they fired Pederson because he did NOT want Wentz and the Eagles were were sticking WITH Wentz?

Now they trade him?

They must have wanted Pederson gone regardless.



Nobody truly knows what happened but it seems as if Roseman was the Wentz fan but others weren't. Also, with the way the last game unfolded, there was talk that Pederson lost the locker room and giving him another year wouldn't do anything positive. I think that is why he was fired so late. In terms of trading Wentz it seems that since there were conflicting opinions between management and owner that they may have just let their new HC evaluate the QBs and go from there.


Yeah Robbie -

that makes more sense (New HC - starts over).

I thought the battle lines between Pederson and Wentz were a little more definitive. I guess it was just speculation.
Philly radio responses have been off the hook....  
Fishmanjim57 : 2/18/2021 2:33 pm : link
Mike Missanelli said that the Eagles received PENIS in the trade of their franchise QB.
He also said that the Eagles GM Howie Roseman has turned a potentially Super Bowl contender into the JETS with the latest trade!
I'm loving how the Eagles fans are squirming in the cesspool that their franchise has become.
DIE EAGLES DIE.....ON THE ROAD TO MISERY
RE: Thread...  
GiantGolfer : 2/18/2021 2:33 pm : link
In comment 15156456 Brown_Hornet said:
Quote:
...Killed.


GoTerps has a real knack for ruining perfectly good threads with his bullshit nonsense.
Terps  
ryanmkeane : 2/18/2021 2:34 pm : link
i'm not getting into this with you because you are quite literally, an impossible person. You don't seem to get the notion that rookie QB's on a rookie contract who teams are still building around, are given a bit more of a longer leash than guys who are not playing well under a huge contract.

You don't seem to grasp this, because you are so anti Giants that it is a disease on your ability to think clearly.
Terps  
ryanmkeane : 2/18/2021 2:37 pm : link
not sure what your thing is with Barkley, but no...the timeline is not the same. We've already seen what Barkley can do, when healthy, and that is be a top 2-3 running back and playmaker in the entire league. We've seen that, it happened. He got hurt. Last I checked you can't play on a torn ACL.
RE: Philly radio responses have been off the hook....  
short lease : 2/18/2021 2:45 pm : link
In comment 15156463 Fishmanjim57 said:
Quote:
Mike Missanelli said that the Eagles received PENIS in the trade of their franchise QB.
He also said that the Eagles GM Howie Roseman has turned a potentially Super Bowl contender into the JETS with the latest trade!
I'm loving how the Eagles fans are squirming in the cesspool that their franchise has become.
DIE EAGLES DIE.....ON THE ROAD TO MISERY



lol

I can imagine Sports talk radio in Philly going batshit.


Superbowl contender? A bit of a stretch by Masinelli?



: )
Considering the circumstances  
RetroJint : 2/18/2021 2:47 pm : link
The Eagles actually did very well in this trade for a guy who has been injury -prone and toxic in the locker room . From the Colts perspective , the hope is Reich can rehabilitate him . And Luck has no intention of returning to the game .

In the present division power rating , plug the Eagles in at 4. Their implosion is interesting , unexpected and highly enjoyable . I hope it continues by screwing up with the sixth pick .

Lot of hypocrisy on this thread..  
GManinDC : 2/18/2021 2:47 pm : link
People preaching patience on a team and a QB, but yet, were the same people that kept saying, on every thread, how good Connelly, Beal, Love, Baker, etc was after they played in about 7 - 9 games!!!

Other side is those who keep wanted to turn the page on every player who doesn't play at their peak level EVERY year!!

RE: RE: Thread...  
Jimmy Googs : 2/18/2021 2:47 pm : link
In comment 15156464 GiantGolfer said:
Quote:
In comment 15156456 Brown_Hornet said:


Quote:


...Killed.



GoTerps has a real knack for ruining perfectly good threads with his bullshit nonsense.


Moreso, the other 15 guys trying to outwit him in the typical obsessive fashion...
RE: Maybe someone has already addressed this but -  
bw in dc : 2/18/2021 2:47 pm : link
In comment 15156451 short lease said:
Quote:
I thought they fired Pederson because he did NOT want Wentz and the Eagles were were sticking WITH Wentz?

Now they trade him?

They must have wanted Pederson gone regardless.


Pederson's exit, I believe, was driven by the debacle of the last game and the heavy blow-back the organization got nationally. That was a very bad look and they needed a fall guy. Which was Pederson. In retrospect, I wonder if Pederson did it on purpose as some form of mutiny...?

Before this season, Wentz was 32-24 as the starter about 100TDs/30+INTs (a good ratio), 7+ YPA/7.5 A/YPA, and a near MVP season before he got hurt in 2017. Those are good results, especially factoring in last year when he got them into the playoffs with four straight Ws down the stretch. And throwing to receivers who could have easily been confused for parking attendants for stadium parking.



RE: RE: Thread...  
Go Terps : 2/18/2021 2:50 pm : link
In comment 15156464 GiantGolfer said:
Quote:
In comment 15156456 Brown_Hornet said:


Quote:


...Killed.



GoTerps has a real knack for ruining perfectly good threads with his bullshit nonsense.


Go back up and read through the thread.

What do you add, by the way?
Pederson  
giants#1 : 2/18/2021 2:51 pm : link
I still don't think its far fetched that he pulled that shit in the final game to ensure he got fired. He was looking at the same stuff we are:

1. massively overpaid QB
2. aging OL/DL
3. horrible cap situation

Not hard to believe he wanted out.
RE: RE: RE: This makes me wonder...  
Big Blue '56 : 2/18/2021 2:52 pm : link
In comment 15156371 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15156287 Chris in Philly said:


Quote:


In comment 15156283 bw in dc said:


Quote:


what the hell would Jones get in the trade market if Philly can only scrape a 3rd and conditional 2nd for Wentz...



Do you think Wentz’s contract, his demand for a trade, and his toxic relationship with the front office has anything to do with that or do we just ignore that to try to make a point?



I did consider that, yes.

And I considered he's had one losing season as the starter (2020), taken the Eagles to the playoffs three times, has been in the MVP hunt, and has shown he can make chicken salad.


And now it’s chicken shit!
This is a perfect..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/18/2021 2:55 pm : link
example of the usual crew actually trying to spin this into a reasonable move while calling almost any move we've made recently as "fireable offenses".

It is also the same fucking group that tells other posters to argue in "good faith". Why do I feel like we are bombarded by one big troll job here?
RE: RE: Maybe someone has already addressed this but -  
Jimmy Googs : 2/18/2021 2:57 pm : link
In comment 15156473 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15156451 short lease said:


Quote:


I thought they fired Pederson because he did NOT want Wentz and the Eagles were were sticking WITH Wentz?

Now they trade him?

They must have wanted Pederson gone regardless.



Pederson's exit, I believe, was driven by the debacle of the last game and the heavy blow-back the organization got nationally. That was a very bad look and they needed a fall guy. Which was Pederson. In retrospect, I wonder if Pederson did it on purpose as some form of mutiny...?

Before this season, Wentz was 32-24 as the starter about 100TDs/30+INTs (a good ratio), 7+ YPA/7.5 A/YPA, and a near MVP season before he got hurt in 2017. Those are good results, especially factoring in last year when he got them into the playoffs with four straight Ws down the stretch. And throwing to receivers who could have easily been confused for parking attendants for stadium parking.




It was a bad look. But I think he really lost his job because he didn't convey a viable future plan at QB to his owner when they met right after the season. Remember they met twice and I think that is because Pederson was kind of winging it between whether he backed Wentz, Hurts or some other TBD option in the draft. He probably showed poorly in those sessions.
RE: RE: RE: Thread...  
GiantGolfer : 2/18/2021 2:57 pm : link
In comment 15156475 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15156464 GiantGolfer said:


Quote:


In comment 15156456 Brown_Hornet said:


Quote:


...Killed.



GoTerps has a real knack for ruining perfectly good threads with his bullshit nonsense.



Go back up and read through the thread.

What do you add, by the way?


More than you.
RE: RE: RE: Thread...  
Jimmy Googs : 2/18/2021 2:58 pm : link
In comment 15156475 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15156464 GiantGolfer said:


Quote:


In comment 15156456 Brown_Hornet said:


Quote:


...Killed.



GoTerps has a real knack for ruining perfectly good threads with his bullshit nonsense.



Go back up and read through the thread.

What do you add, by the way?


About the same as fmic...
RE: ryan  
jvm52106 : 2/18/2021 2:58 pm : link
In comment 15156455 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I think this is a key sentence:



Quote:


If he was a disaster, which he's not...they'd obviously move along.



Two points:

1. If Jones isn't a disaster, then what's the definition of disaster? He's a #6 pick overall, his stats are poor, the offense is VERY poor with him at QB, and the Giants are 8-18 with him at quarterback.

If that's not a disaster two years in, then what is? There isn't much room for it to be worse...you're talking Jamarcus Russell/Dwayne Haskins/Ryan Leaf as the only level below him.

2. Would the Giants move on from him? They've shown us many times that they are very slow to acknowledge and move on from a bad situation. I'm not even 100% convinced they move on from him if he has a poor 2021. I'd hope they would, but I'm not 100% on it...their delusion runs deep.

And just curious, does this timeframe apply to Barkley? Because if it does...


OH my god, you never stop. Jones is not and has not been a disaster. By your account Eli was a disaster years 1 and 2. Don't give me different times bullshit either as Eli had FAR more talent on those teams than Jones has ever had here.

Eli (years 1 & 2)- 389-754- 4805yds- 30td- 26int and 12 fumbles with a 50.5% compl %

Jones (years 1 & 2)- 564-907-5970yds- 35td- 22int and 23 fumbles with a 62.2% compl %.

Fumbles are the only area Jones is the only negative area compared to Eli after 2 years. Jones hasn't had Tiki, Jacobs, Burress, Shockey, Toomer etc and sure the hell didn't have that Oline either.

jvm  
ryanmkeane : 2/18/2021 2:59 pm : link
good comparison, don't even bother though, Terps expects Daniel Jones to be a very good quarterback already.
RE: Sucks they were able to get anything.  
allstarjim : 2/18/2021 3:00 pm : link
In comment 15156249 rasbutant said:
Quote:
Still not bad for Eagles. The 1st is likely to be earned. They got to use him and then got some of the cost back. Overall net cost isn't bad for a starting QB for 5yrs.

I'm sure there would be a lot of happy BBI'ers on here if the Giants were able to sell Jones for a 1st and 3rd after his 5th year.


It will be a 2022 first going to Philly, but that likely is to be a 1st no earlier than the 20's with how that team is constructed.

It's a bargain for a QB that has shown the ability to produce at a high level. With how far the Colts went with Rivers, all they need is to maintain and a return to form for Wentz to be a Super Bowl contender.
BB'56...  
bw in dc : 2/18/2021 3:03 pm : link
Philly's problems are more than Wentz's poor year in 2020.

But Wentz needs to reboot personally and as a player. And it seems he's in good hands being back with Reich. So he's very fortunate to have landed in Indy.
Indy  
AcidTest : 2/18/2021 3:09 pm : link
got the better of the deal. The cost to find out whether they can resurrect Wentz is low in terms of draft compensation. He basically had no OL or WRs in 2020, which because of COVID - 19 was a crazy year for everyone. He also has no guaranteed money left on his contract.

The Eagles take the largest cap hit in NFL history by making this trade, but as others have noted, they are likely in full rebuild mode anyway, so it's better to just absorb everything bad this year and get it all out of the way. Wentz is completely off their books after this season. He also clearly wanted to leave, and it's almost impossible to get top value in that situation. The problem of course is that what the Eagles got in terms of compensation is a pittance relative to what they paid to get him. Hurts is also not likely the long term replacement for Wentz.
RE: RE: ryan  
Big Blue '56 : 2/18/2021 3:11 pm : link
In comment 15156485 jvm52106 said:
Quote:
In comment 15156455 Go Terps said:


Quote:


I think this is a key sentence:



Quote:


If he was a disaster, which he's not...they'd obviously move along.



Two points:

1. If Jones isn't a disaster, then what's the definition of disaster? He's a #6 pick overall, his stats are poor, the offense is VERY poor with him at QB, and the Giants are 8-18 with him at quarterback.

If that's not a disaster two years in, then what is? There isn't much room for it to be worse...you're talking Jamarcus Russell/Dwayne Haskins/Ryan Leaf as the only level below him.

2. Would the Giants move on from him? They've shown us many times that they are very slow to acknowledge and move on from a bad situation. I'm not even 100% convinced they move on from him if he has a poor 2021. I'd hope they would, but I'm not 100% on it...their delusion runs deep.

And just curious, does this timeframe apply to Barkley? Because if it does...



OH my god, you never stop. Jones is not and has not been a disaster. By your account Eli was a disaster years 1 and 2. Don't give me different times bullshit either as Eli had FAR more talent on those teams than Jones has ever had here.

Eli (years 1 & 2)- 389-754- 4805yds- 30td- 26int and 12 fumbles with a 50.5% compl %

Jones (years 1 & 2)- 564-907-5970yds- 35td- 22int and 23 fumbles with a 62.2% compl %.

Fumbles are the only area Jones is the only negative area compared to Eli after 2 years. Jones hasn't had Tiki, Jacobs, Burress, Shockey, Toomer etc and sure the hell didn't have that Oline either.


He also hasn’t had Barkley
bw  
ryanmkeane : 2/18/2021 3:12 pm : link
it's funny that posters here are absolving Wentz (former MVP type player) of any blame for the Eagles bad performance, and yet on the same token they expect Daniel Jones (2nd year player) to carry the Giants
RE: Brock Osweiler was never a good QB  
Gatorade Dunk : 2/18/2021 3:15 pm : link
In comment 15156457 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
in what world is that a legit comparison? Goff has a ton of flaws but he's a starting caliber QB with a 2:1 TD ratio and 42-27 record.

I'm referring to the trade where the Texans gave up the better draft picks than they received just to rid themselves of Osweiler's contract.

I am certain that the Rams would have given up less for Stafford if they didn't include Goff in the deal. They wound up having to sweeten the offer to get that contract off their hands.
RE: bw  
Big Blue '56 : 2/18/2021 3:15 pm : link
In comment 15156499 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
it's funny that posters here are absolving Wentz (former MVP type player) of any blame for the Eagles bad performance, and yet on the same token they expect Daniel Jones (2nd year player) to carry the Giants


Already made that point ad infinitum..The response I get is his prior years and near MVP performance..THIS past season does not count, unless it’s an injured Jones..Jones’ rookie performance (save for the fumbling) merits zero consideration.
sure  
UConn4523 : 2/18/2021 3:20 pm : link
but Osweiler was never considered part of the future for the Browns, they basically bought picks.

Goff will actually be the starter and can stabilize them at QB, keeping them from reaching in the draft. And of course they would have paid less for Stafford without the big contract, but how else is this supposed to work when the QB is on the team already? They wouldn't be rostering both anyway.

The contract is inherent otherwise there wouldn't be a trade.
Wentz was really bad last year.  
BrettNYG10 : 2/18/2021 3:20 pm : link
He was missing open guys, throwing to no man's land, running into pass rushers. It was a disaster.

Wonder if he bounces back. I think the Colts did a good job taking this risk, but I'd try to sign a quality back-up or draft a QB in the early rounds if I were them.
RE: RE: ryan  
GiantGolfer : 2/18/2021 3:21 pm : link
In comment 15156485 jvm52106 said:
Quote:
In comment 15156455 Go Terps said:


Quote:


I think this is a key sentence:



Quote:


If he was a disaster, which he's not...they'd obviously move along.



Two points:

1. If Jones isn't a disaster, then what's the definition of disaster? He's a #6 pick overall, his stats are poor, the offense is VERY poor with him at QB, and the Giants are 8-18 with him at quarterback.

If that's not a disaster two years in, then what is? There isn't much room for it to be worse...you're talking Jamarcus Russell/Dwayne Haskins/Ryan Leaf as the only level below him.

2. Would the Giants move on from him? They've shown us many times that they are very slow to acknowledge and move on from a bad situation. I'm not even 100% convinced they move on from him if he has a poor 2021. I'd hope they would, but I'm not 100% on it...their delusion runs deep.

And just curious, does this timeframe apply to Barkley? Because if it does...



OH my god, you never stop. Jones is not and has not been a disaster. By your account Eli was a disaster years 1 and 2. Don't give me different times bullshit either as Eli had FAR more talent on those teams than Jones has ever had here.

Eli (years 1 & 2)- 389-754- 4805yds- 30td- 26int and 12 fumbles with a 50.5% compl %

Jones (years 1 & 2)- 564-907-5970yds- 35td- 22int and 23 fumbles with a 62.2% compl %.

Fumbles are the only area Jones is the only negative area compared to Eli after 2 years. Jones hasn't had Tiki, Jacobs, Burress, Shockey, Toomer etc and sure the hell didn't have that Oline either.


Excellent post. Terps harps on Jones “poor stats”, but those stats are pretty darn good when you look at the lack of playmakers he has in the field with him.

Terps is flat out WRONG here.
RE: bw  
Jimmy Googs : 2/18/2021 3:23 pm : link
In comment 15156499 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
it's funny that posters here are absolving Wentz (former MVP type player) of any blame for the Eagles bad performance, and yet on the same token they expect Daniel Jones (2nd year player) to carry the Giants


Who is absolving Wentz for 2020? He looked indecisive and lost to me in so many games throughout the season. In fact, can't recall when he was particularly sharp outside of the 4QTR versus the first game they played the Giants.
Dave Brown was a disaster.  
GiantGolfer : 2/18/2021 3:23 pm : link
Daniel Jones was put in a tough spot following Eli with no weapons. He is not a disaster.
RE: RE: RE: ryan  
Gatorade Dunk : 2/18/2021 3:27 pm : link
In comment 15156508 GiantGolfer said:
Quote:
In comment 15156485 jvm52106 said:


Quote:


In comment 15156455 Go Terps said:


Quote:


I think this is a key sentence:



Quote:


If he was a disaster, which he's not...they'd obviously move along.



Two points:

1. If Jones isn't a disaster, then what's the definition of disaster? He's a #6 pick overall, his stats are poor, the offense is VERY poor with him at QB, and the Giants are 8-18 with him at quarterback.

If that's not a disaster two years in, then what is? There isn't much room for it to be worse...you're talking Jamarcus Russell/Dwayne Haskins/Ryan Leaf as the only level below him.

2. Would the Giants move on from him? They've shown us many times that they are very slow to acknowledge and move on from a bad situation. I'm not even 100% convinced they move on from him if he has a poor 2021. I'd hope they would, but I'm not 100% on it...their delusion runs deep.

And just curious, does this timeframe apply to Barkley? Because if it does...



OH my god, you never stop. Jones is not and has not been a disaster. By your account Eli was a disaster years 1 and 2. Don't give me different times bullshit either as Eli had FAR more talent on those teams than Jones has ever had here.

Eli (years 1 & 2)- 389-754- 4805yds- 30td- 26int and 12 fumbles with a 50.5% compl %

Jones (years 1 & 2)- 564-907-5970yds- 35td- 22int and 23 fumbles with a 62.2% compl %.

Fumbles are the only area Jones is the only negative area compared to Eli after 2 years. Jones hasn't had Tiki, Jacobs, Burress, Shockey, Toomer etc and sure the hell didn't have that Oline either.




Excellent post. Terps harps on Jones “poor stats”, but those stats are pretty darn good when you look at the lack of playmakers he has in the field with him.

Terps is flat out WRONG here.

There is absolutely no world where Jones's 2020 stats can be classified as "pretty darn good." It was a shitty season for him, and denying that in any way, regardless of what excuses you want to conjure up, is ridiculous.

That said, Jones's 2019 season was far more encouraging. Hopefully that was not simply a byproduct of Shurmur's QB whispering (would it be completely unrealistic to imagine that Jones was just Shurmur's more recent version of Case Keenum?), and that the underlying talent is actually there.

I've said this before and I'll stand by it: In a few years, we'll be able to look back at DJ's first two years in the league and one of those two seasons will likely prove to have been an outlier. The jury's still out on which one it'll be, though.
RE: Dave Brown was a disaster.  
Gatorade Dunk : 2/18/2021 3:27 pm : link
In comment 15156510 GiantGolfer said:
Quote:
Daniel Jones was put in a tough spot following Eli with no weapons. He is not a disaster.

You hope.

There is nothing that should give you enough confidence to be so definitive about that, however.
Comparing Jones to Eli is a joke  
Go Terps : 2/18/2021 3:27 pm : link
Different eras, different results.

Eli led one of the highest scoring offenses in the league his second year. Jones the second worst.

Insulting to Eli.
RE: RE: RE: ryan  
AcidTest : 2/18/2021 3:29 pm : link
In comment 15156508 GiantGolfer said:
Quote:
In comment 15156485 jvm52106 said:


Quote:


In comment 15156455 Go Terps said:


Quote:


I think this is a key sentence:



Quote:


If he was a disaster, which he's not...they'd obviously move along.



Two points:

1. If Jones isn't a disaster, then what's the definition of disaster? He's a #6 pick overall, his stats are poor, the offense is VERY poor with him at QB, and the Giants are 8-18 with him at quarterback.

If that's not a disaster two years in, then what is? There isn't much room for it to be worse...you're talking Jamarcus Russell/Dwayne Haskins/Ryan Leaf as the only level below him.

2. Would the Giants move on from him? They've shown us many times that they are very slow to acknowledge and move on from a bad situation. I'm not even 100% convinced they move on from him if he has a poor 2021. I'd hope they would, but I'm not 100% on it...their delusion runs deep.

And just curious, does this timeframe apply to Barkley? Because if it does...



OH my god, you never stop. Jones is not and has not been a disaster. By your account Eli was a disaster years 1 and 2. Don't give me different times bullshit either as Eli had FAR more talent on those teams than Jones has ever had here.

Eli (years 1 & 2)- 389-754- 4805yds- 30td- 26int and 12 fumbles with a 50.5% compl %

Jones (years 1 & 2)- 564-907-5970yds- 35td- 22int and 23 fumbles with a 62.2% compl %.

Fumbles are the only area Jones is the only negative area compared to Eli after 2 years. Jones hasn't had Tiki, Jacobs, Burress, Shockey, Toomer etc and sure the hell didn't have that Oline either.




Excellent post. Terps harps on Jones “poor stats”, but those stats are pretty darn good when you look at the lack of playmakers he has in the field with him.

Terps is flat out WRONG here.


+2.
RE: Comparing Jones to Eli is a joke  
GiantGolfer : 2/18/2021 3:31 pm : link
In comment 15156514 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Different eras, different results.

Eli led one of the highest scoring offenses in the league his second year. Jones the second worst.

Insulting to Eli.


Shocking. Because it doesn’t fit your narrative. We get it.
RE: RE: RE: RE: ryan  
GiantGolfer : 2/18/2021 3:32 pm : link
In comment 15156512 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15156508 GiantGolfer said:


Quote:


In comment 15156485 jvm52106 said:


Quote:


In comment 15156455 Go Terps said:


Quote:


I think this is a key sentence:



Quote:


If he was a disaster, which he's not...they'd obviously move along.



Two points:

1. If Jones isn't a disaster, then what's the definition of disaster? He's a #6 pick overall, his stats are poor, the offense is VERY poor with him at QB, and the Giants are 8-18 with him at quarterback.

If that's not a disaster two years in, then what is? There isn't much room for it to be worse...you're talking Jamarcus Russell/Dwayne Haskins/Ryan Leaf as the only level below him.

2. Would the Giants move on from him? They've shown us many times that they are very slow to acknowledge and move on from a bad situation. I'm not even 100% convinced they move on from him if he has a poor 2021. I'd hope they would, but I'm not 100% on it...their delusion runs deep.

And just curious, does this timeframe apply to Barkley? Because if it does...



OH my god, you never stop. Jones is not and has not been a disaster. By your account Eli was a disaster years 1 and 2. Don't give me different times bullshit either as Eli had FAR more talent on those teams than Jones has ever had here.

Eli (years 1 & 2)- 389-754- 4805yds- 30td- 26int and 12 fumbles with a 50.5% compl %

Jones (years 1 & 2)- 564-907-5970yds- 35td- 22int and 23 fumbles with a 62.2% compl %.

Fumbles are the only area Jones is the only negative area compared to Eli after 2 years. Jones hasn't had Tiki, Jacobs, Burress, Shockey, Toomer etc and sure the hell didn't have that Oline either.




Excellent post. Terps harps on Jones “poor stats”, but those stats are pretty darn good when you look at the lack of playmakers he has in the field with him.

Terps is flat out WRONG here.


There is absolutely no world where Jones's 2020 stats can be classified as "pretty darn good." It was a shitty season for him, and denying that in any way, regardless of what excuses you want to conjure up, is ridiculous.

That said, Jones's 2019 season was far more encouraging. Hopefully that was not simply a byproduct of Shurmur's QB whispering (would it be completely unrealistic to imagine that Jones was just Shurmur's more recent version of Case Keenum?), and that the underlying talent is actually there.

I've said this before and I'll stand by it: In a few years, we'll be able to look back at DJ's first two years in the league and one of those two seasons will likely prove to have been an outlier. The jury's still out on which one it'll be, though.


I was looking at the 2 year stats that were posted, not just 2020. Try to keep up.
RE: bw  
bw in dc : 2/18/2021 3:33 pm : link
In comment 15156499 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
it's funny that posters here are absolving Wentz (former MVP type player) of any blame for the Eagles bad performance, and yet on the same token they expect Daniel Jones (2nd year player) to carry the Giants


Wentz deserves blame - sure. He lost a lot of poise this year and put his team in some bad spots with his decision making.

However, he has shown the ability to make chicken salad; and that was on full display last year when he essentially won four playoff games in December to get the Eagles into the playoffs.

So, IMV, Wentz has built up some equity with his play and deserves some benefit of the doubt. Jones hasn't. Which is why the Giants really need to go all in this off-season to give him more reinforcements so we can see if he can produce points and wins.
RE: RE: RE: RE: ryan  
GiantGolfer : 2/18/2021 3:33 pm : link
In comment 15156512 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15156508 GiantGolfer said:


Quote:


In comment 15156485 jvm52106 said:


Quote:


In comment 15156455 Go Terps said:


Quote:


I think this is a key sentence:



Quote:


If he was a disaster, which he's not...they'd obviously move along.



Two points:

1. If Jones isn't a disaster, then what's the definition of disaster? He's a #6 pick overall, his stats are poor, the offense is VERY poor with him at QB, and the Giants are 8-18 with him at quarterback.

If that's not a disaster two years in, then what is? There isn't much room for it to be worse...you're talking Jamarcus Russell/Dwayne Haskins/Ryan Leaf as the only level below him.

2. Would the Giants move on from him? They've shown us many times that they are very slow to acknowledge and move on from a bad situation. I'm not even 100% convinced they move on from him if he has a poor 2021. I'd hope they would, but I'm not 100% on it...their delusion runs deep.

And just curious, does this timeframe apply to Barkley? Because if it does...



OH my god, you never stop. Jones is not and has not been a disaster. By your account Eli was a disaster years 1 and 2. Don't give me different times bullshit either as Eli had FAR more talent on those teams than Jones has ever had here.

Eli (years 1 & 2)- 389-754- 4805yds- 30td- 26int and 12 fumbles with a 50.5% compl %

Jones (years 1 & 2)- 564-907-5970yds- 35td- 22int and 23 fumbles with a 62.2% compl %.

Fumbles are the only area Jones is the only negative area compared to Eli after 2 years. Jones hasn't had Tiki, Jacobs, Burress, Shockey, Toomer etc and sure the hell didn't have that Oline either.




Excellent post. Terps harps on Jones “poor stats”, but those stats are pretty darn good when you look at the lack of playmakers he has in the field with him.

Terps is flat out WRONG here.


There is absolutely no world where Jones's 2020 stats can be classified as "pretty darn good." It was a shitty season for him, and denying that in any way, regardless of what excuses you want to conjure up, is ridiculous.

That said, Jones's 2019 season was far more encouraging. Hopefully that was not simply a byproduct of Shurmur's QB whispering (would it be completely unrealistic to imagine that Jones was just Shurmur's more recent version of Case Keenum?), and that the underlying talent is actually there.

I've said this before and I'll stand by it: In a few years, we'll be able to look back at DJ's first two years in the league and one of those two seasons will likely prove to have been an outlier. The jury's still out on which one it'll be, though.


I was looking at the 2 year stats that were posted, not just 2020. He’s had garbage talent around him both seasons.
RE: RE: Dave Brown was a disaster.  
GiantGolfer : 2/18/2021 3:35 pm : link
In comment 15156513 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15156510 GiantGolfer said:


Quote:


Daniel Jones was put in a tough spot following Eli with no weapons. He is not a disaster.


You hope.

There is nothing that should give you enough confidence to be so definitive about that, however.


I disagree. Your gonna have to deal with that.
RE: RE: bw  
UConn4523 : 2/18/2021 3:37 pm : link
In comment 15156520 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15156499 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


it's funny that posters here are absolving Wentz (former MVP type player) of any blame for the Eagles bad performance, and yet on the same token they expect Daniel Jones (2nd year player) to carry the Giants



Wentz deserves blame - sure. He lost a lot of poise this year and put his team in some bad spots with his decision making.

However, he has shown the ability to make chicken salad; and that was on full display last year when he essentially won four playoff games in December to get the Eagles into the playoffs.

So, IMV, Wentz has built up some equity with his play and deserves some benefit of the doubt. Jones hasn't. Which is why the Giants really need to go all in this off-season to give him more reinforcements so we can see if he can produce points and wins.


We agree here. Jones needs help, if we don't get him any I doubt he's going to move the needle much. But if we do we need to see how he responds and that's the point of year 3 which will then tell us all we need to know about what happens beyond 2021.
RE: RE: Comparing Jones to Eli is a joke  
Go Terps : 2/18/2021 3:37 pm : link
In comment 15156518 GiantGolfer said:
Quote:
In comment 15156514 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Different eras, different results.

Eli led one of the highest scoring offenses in the league his second year. Jones the second worst.

Insulting to Eli.



Shocking. Because it doesn’t fit your narrative. We get it.


No, because it just isn't the truth. You can compare Jones to Sid Luckman and his numbers are going to be good too.

Offensive football was very different in 2005. Amongst his contemporaries Eli could fairly have been considered a promising player. In year two he led a high scoring offense and the team went 11-5.

How is Jones doing amongst his contemporaries? The answer is he completely fucking blows.
RE: RE: RE: RE: ryan  
Producer : 2/18/2021 3:37 pm : link
In comment 15156515 AcidTest said:
Quote:
In comment 15156508 GiantGolfer said:


Quote:


In comment 15156485 jvm52106 said:


Quote:


In comment 15156455 Go Terps said:


Quote:


I think this is a key sentence:



Quote:


If he was a disaster, which he's not...they'd obviously move along.



Two points:

1. If Jones isn't a disaster, then what's the definition of disaster? He's a #6 pick overall, his stats are poor, the offense is VERY poor with him at QB, and the Giants are 8-18 with him at quarterback.

If that's not a disaster two years in, then what is? There isn't much room for it to be worse...you're talking Jamarcus Russell/Dwayne Haskins/Ryan Leaf as the only level below him.

2. Would the Giants move on from him? They've shown us many times that they are very slow to acknowledge and move on from a bad situation. I'm not even 100% convinced they move on from him if he has a poor 2021. I'd hope they would, but I'm not 100% on it...their delusion runs deep.

And just curious, does this timeframe apply to Barkley? Because if it does...



OH my god, you never stop. Jones is not and has not been a disaster. By your account Eli was a disaster years 1 and 2. Don't give me different times bullshit either as Eli had FAR more talent on those teams than Jones has ever had here.

Eli (years 1 & 2)- 389-754- 4805yds- 30td- 26int and 12 fumbles with a 50.5% compl %

Jones (years 1 & 2)- 564-907-5970yds- 35td- 22int and 23 fumbles with a 62.2% compl %.

Fumbles are the only area Jones is the only negative area compared to Eli after 2 years. Jones hasn't had Tiki, Jacobs, Burress, Shockey, Toomer etc and sure the hell didn't have that Oline either.




Excellent post. Terps harps on Jones “poor stats”, but those stats are pretty darn good when you look at the lack of playmakers he has in the field with him.

Terps is flat out WRONG here.



+2.


umm no.. bad stats are bad stats. He's bottom 6 in the league. there is no "normalizing" principle that tells you: "No he is not the 27th best QB, he's the 12th."

He doesn't get credit for production that he doesn't have. He is bad. And until he plays well he is just bad. Now you may *believe* he will get better as the supporting cast gets better, and you might be correct, but you might not be correct, he may improve just moderately and remain an inadequate QB who hurts our chances to win Super Bowls. And the probabilities don't favor you as Jones has a track record of bad football. And while the supporting cast has not been ideal, it improved some over the course of the season and Jones pretty much still played poorly, and was even outplayed by Colt McCoy, of all people, in his brief stint. And of course there is the chicken and the egg argument: Does DJ play poorly because of the supporting cast? Or does the supporting cast seem worse than they are because of DJ?
RE: sure  
Gatorade Dunk : 2/18/2021 3:39 pm : link
In comment 15156505 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
but Osweiler was never considered part of the future for the Browns, they basically bought picks.

Goff will actually be the starter and can stabilize them at QB, keeping them from reaching in the draft. And of course they would have paid less for Stafford without the big contract, but how else is this supposed to work when the QB is on the team already? They wouldn't be rostering both anyway.

The contract is inherent otherwise there wouldn't be a trade.

The Lions didn't have to absorb Goff in the trade. They could have traded Stafford elsewhere or waited for the Rams to trade Goff elsewhere before making the trade just for picks. The Lions got more from the Rams for taking on Goff's contract, because there was no other way for the Rams to afford to make the trade - they could not afford to take on Stafford's contract with Goff still on the roster, and even if they could, they'd have absolutely no leverage to move Goff once they acquired Stafford. Add to that how much worse the dead money would have been for the Rams if they couldn't find a taker for Goff, and it left them in a position where they had to overpay for Stafford in order to ensure Goff was included in the deal.

And yes, I agree that they do likely see Goff as a potential solution, but with limited downside, and there's no guarantee that they seem him as part of the future either, but are content with him to be their QB right now. Certainly, they could do worse at QB, so Goff's worth taking a chance on because of the draft picks they received.

At worst, he'll be a bridge to their next QB, which is fine since they're rebuilding anyway. If Goff struggles, the Lions can be out of his contract in two years with no dead money, but they're on the hook for $50MM over the next two years (or $40MM for just this year if he completely implodes).
Gatorade  
UConn4523 : 2/18/2021 3:40 pm : link
what does it matter if we hope Jones plays better? I still don't understand the negative connotation with that word around here. I'm not the GM making decisions, im a fan that hopes the whole team is better in 2021.
Some posters love using the word "narrative"  
Go Terps : 2/18/2021 3:42 pm : link
The performance of the offense and the team in general is very poor. That is fact, not a narrative.

When you start comparing to quarterbacks from other eras and making excuses for that poor performance - that's when you get into narratives.

Two years in, Jones has been poor. That's not a narrative. How it relates to Wentz is simple - Wentz (like Goff) is a stark lesson in not paying a second contract to a QB who doesn't merit it. The Giants are dealing with that question now.
RE: RE: RE: Dave Brown was a disaster.  
Gatorade Dunk : 2/18/2021 3:42 pm : link
In comment 15156522 GiantGolfer said:
Quote:
In comment 15156513 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 15156510 GiantGolfer said:


Quote:


Daniel Jones was put in a tough spot following Eli with no weapons. He is not a disaster.


You hope.

There is nothing that should give you enough confidence to be so definitive about that, however.



I disagree. Your gonna have to deal with that.

I already know there's a lot of people who are wrong about a lot of things (it could be football, it could be grammar, it could be anything) in all walks of life. I've come to terms with it.
RE: RE: RE: Comparing Jones to Eli is a joke  
bw in dc : 2/18/2021 3:43 pm : link
In comment 15156524 Go Terps said:
Quote:

No, because it just isn't the truth. You can compare Jones to Sid Luckman and his numbers are going to be good too.



That was very funny.

Although Luckman did have a great year in '43 with 28TDs/12 INTs, 10.9 YPA...in only ten games. ;)
The Giants won.  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/18/2021 3:43 pm : link
one of the games Colt McCoy started. But I see it posted by certain posters here frequently that McCoy outplayed Jones. By what metrics??

He had a 60% completion % Had 1 TD and 1 INT and averaged 160 yards passing in those two games.

That's really reaching to try and either uplift McCoy, or more appropriately, try to downgrade Jones.
RE: RE: RE: Comparing Jones to Eli is a joke  
GiantGolfer : 2/18/2021 3:44 pm : link
In comment 15156524 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15156518 GiantGolfer said:


Quote:


In comment 15156514 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Different eras, different results.

Eli led one of the highest scoring offenses in the league his second year. Jones the second worst.

Insulting to Eli.



Shocking. Because it doesn’t fit your narrative. We get it.



No, because it just isn't the truth. You can compare Jones to Sid Luckman and his numbers are going to be good too.

Offensive football was very different in 2005. Amongst his contemporaries Eli could fairly have been considered a promising player. In year two he led a high scoring offense and the team went 11-5.

How is Jones doing amongst his contemporaries? The answer is he completely fucking blows.


What kind of talent did Eli have around him on the offense? Any better than what Jones has?

It’s not even close. Eli had Tiki who rushed for almost 2000 yards, Plax, Shockley and Toomer. Jones has....Slayton? Gallman??

Just stop.
RE: Gatorade  
Producer : 2/18/2021 3:45 pm : link
In comment 15156531 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
what does it matter if we hope Jones plays better? I still don't understand the negative connotation with that word around here. I'm not the GM making decisions, im a fan that hopes the whole team is better in 2021.


we're all Giants fans here. We all want Jones to play better. The naysayers want Jones to shut us up. That should be a given. We're not fans of other teams wasting hours pretending to be Giants fans who are skeptical of Jones. Which is the ludicrous assumption made by some on this board.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Dave Brown was a disaster.  
GiantGolfer : 2/18/2021 3:45 pm : link
In comment 15156533 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15156522 GiantGolfer said:


Quote:


In comment 15156513 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 15156510 GiantGolfer said:


Quote:


Daniel Jones was put in a tough spot following Eli with no weapons. He is not a disaster.


You hope.

There is nothing that should give you enough confidence to be so definitive about that, however.



I disagree. Your gonna have to deal with that.


I already know there's a lot of people who are wrong about a lot of things (it could be football, it could be grammar, it could be anything) in all walks of life. I've come to terms with it.


Way to man up about it. I give you props for that.
and we haven't paid Jones yet  
UConn4523 : 2/18/2021 3:46 pm : link
so what's the issue? If he goes out next year, posts 20 TDs and 15 INTs going 7-9 and gets a big extension then I think we'd all be pissed. But until that happens what exactly is the argument?
Seemed like Philly  
Lines of Scrimmage : 2/18/2021 3:46 pm : link
did not have much of choice especially with a new HC on board. Best for Wentz to get a clean start. Philly will be looking for a new QB in this year or next.

One thing I think we are seeing is a changing QB landscape. Three former 1st round picks (two who are young) moving to new teams. Then you have Prescott, Wilson and Watson who at least you have heard rumblings of moving. Ryan and Rogers potentially in a year or so.

Perhaps we see more teams looking to acquire a QB this way. Build a good team and then get a developed veteran versus either get fortunate in the draft or having to give up lots draft capital for a unknown.

RE: RE: RE: RE: Comparing Jones to Eli is a joke  
Go Terps : 2/18/2021 3:47 pm : link
In comment 15156536 GiantGolfer said:
Quote:
What kind of talent did Eli have around him on the offense? Any better than what Jones has?

It’s not even close. Eli had Tiki who rushed for almost 2000 yards, Plax, Shockley and Toomer. Jones has....Slayton? Gallman??

Just stop.


Now see, THIS is a narrative.
RE: Gatorade  
Gatorade Dunk : 2/18/2021 3:48 pm : link
In comment 15156531 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
what does it matter if we hope Jones plays better? I still don't understand the negative connotation with that word around here. I'm not the GM making decisions, im a fan that hopes the whole team is better in 2021.

My point is that Jones has played two seasons, one of which was very promising and the other was really bad.

I am not declaring Jones's 2020 to be his true level and 2019 to be the mirage; I think there are some troubling signs there but also know he's going to get another chance. So I also hope that he's more like the 2019 version.

My point of harping on it being pure hope is to point out when posters act like it's a fact that Jones is great and that 2020 was completely out of his control.

We hope that he returns to the 2019 form (without the fumbles), but we have nothing besides optimism to base that on. So when GiantGolfer (or whoever else) acts like it's a certainty, I think it's worth pointing out that it's just hope. Such is the nature of a QB who has had two very different seasons - it's just not possible to know yet which one is the real DJ.
Great trade for Philly  
averagejoe : 2/18/2021 3:50 pm : link
Wentz stinks. He will stink in Indy too and they will pay him 30M per year. Was never worth half that money. Dumping that atrocious contract and getting two picks was a big win for Philly.
RE: and we haven't paid Jones yet  
GiantGolfer : 2/18/2021 3:51 pm : link
In comment 15156540 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
so what's the issue? If he goes out next year, posts 20 TDs and 15 INTs going 7-9 and gets a big extension then I think we'd all be pissed. But until that happens what exactly is the argument?


Terps NEEDS to be right. He’s lost without it.
RE: RE: and we haven't paid Jones yet  
Go Terps : 2/18/2021 3:52 pm : link
In comment 15156547 GiantGolfer said:
Quote:
In comment 15156540 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


so what's the issue? If he goes out next year, posts 20 TDs and 15 INTs going 7-9 and gets a big extension then I think we'd all be pissed. But until that happens what exactly is the argument?



Terps NEEDS to be right. He’s lost without it.


No, I just need the Giants to stop sucking. Until they stop sucking I'm going to keep bitching about it, and why they suck.
Honestly  
TommyWiseau : 2/18/2021 3:53 pm : link
I have to agree with Terps, Daniel Jones is a bad QB as of right now. Can he turn it around with some more weapons, a 2nd year in a offensive system and an improved Oline? Yes, but lets wait and see if that happens.
RE: RE: RE: and we haven't paid Jones yet  
GiantGolfer : 2/18/2021 3:56 pm : link
In comment 15156551 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15156547 GiantGolfer said:


Quote:


In comment 15156540 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


so what's the issue? If he goes out next year, posts 20 TDs and 15 INTs going 7-9 and gets a big extension then I think we'd all be pissed. But until that happens what exactly is the argument?



Terps NEEDS to be right. He’s lost without it.



No, I just need the Giants to stop sucking. Until they stop sucking I'm going to keep bitching about it, and why they suck.


What a miserable way to live.
GD  
UConn4523 : 2/18/2021 3:56 pm : link
I guess that's the holdup then, I don't think anyone actually thinks Jones is or was great. Maybe 1 or 2 posters? Not sure but I haven't read it.

Personally I think i've been pretty reasonable - his supporting cast was trash (especially when Barkley went down) and since he himself isn't a top tier player he isn't good enough to carry an already underwhelming offense. He made some poor throws/decision that lost us 2 games, and then so did Engram. Its unreasonable to get all 4 of those games back but why not 2 of them with even marginal growth and execution?
And McCoy’s 160 yds  
Carl in CT : 2/18/2021 4:04 pm : link
Was against the worse defense in the league against the pass at the time. Jones had the hardest schedule over any other QB in the league.
GiantGolfer  
Go Terps : 2/18/2021 4:05 pm : link
You think that's miserable? I don't know. I think it would be more miserable to lie to myself about the true state of things, and then get upset when that reality plays out on Sundays in the fall. Don't you get tired of kidding yourself and then getting kicked in the balls each season?
RE: And McCoy’s 160 yds  
MyNameIsMyName : 2/18/2021 4:10 pm : link
In comment 15156569 Carl in CT said:
Quote:
Was against the worse defense in the league against the pass at the time. Jones had the hardest schedule over any other QB in the league.


Jones had the hardest schedule, huh? Being in the worst division in football I highly doubt he played the hardest SOS. If that’s what you mean.
RE: RE: And McCoy’s 160 yds  
Britt in VA : 2/18/2021 4:15 pm : link
In comment 15156573 MyNameIsMyName said:
Quote:
In comment 15156569 Carl in CT said:


Quote:


Was against the worse defense in the league against the pass at the time. Jones had the hardest schedule over any other QB in the league.



Jones had the hardest schedule, huh? Being in the worst division in football I highly doubt he played the hardest SOS. If that’s what you mean.


Gotta love PFF:
Link - ( New Window )
RE: GiantGolfer  
GiantGolfer : 2/18/2021 4:18 pm : link
In comment 15156570 Go Terps said:
Quote:
You think that's miserable? I don't know. I think it would be more miserable to lie to myself about the true state of things, and then get upset when that reality plays out on Sundays in the fall. Don't you get tired of kidding yourself and then getting kicked in the balls each season?


I saw a lot of positive this past season with the Giants. I like Joe Judge and think we have the right man for the job. It’s going to take some time to blow it all up and start over, but this year I definitely saw some progress made with some of the young players on the team. We have one playmaker at the skill positions on offense, and he was injured early on. The defense is very promising under Patrick Graham. After Gettleman’s solid off-season last year, I’m optimistic that this off-season will make this team even better.

I don’t watch these games and feel like I got kicked in the nuts when they lose. Sure, I get upset when there’s a bad play. Sure, I feel bad about a loss. But I’m also understanding that it’s not going to happen overnight. I see progress with this team. I’m looking forward to a better 2021 season. Why is that so bad? I’m rooting for my team to win. Complaining over and over again is annoying to other people and I just don’t want to listen to myself doing it. I’d rather focus on the positives. Life is too short to be miserable.

You do you though.





RE: The Giants won.  
Jimmy Googs : 2/18/2021 4:23 pm : link
In comment 15156535 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
one of the games Colt McCoy started. But I see it posted by certain posters here frequently that McCoy outplayed Jones. By what metrics??

He had a 60% completion % Had 1 TD and 1 INT and averaged 160 yards passing in those two games.

That's really reaching to try and either uplift McCoy, or more appropriately, try to downgrade Jones.


Producer - your highly intelligent new friend is calling for you here with this compelling show-stopping nugget...
RE: RE: RE: And McCoy’s 160 yds  
Gatorade Dunk : 2/18/2021 4:39 pm : link
In comment 15156574 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 15156573 MyNameIsMyName said:


Quote:


In comment 15156569 Carl in CT said:


Quote:


Was against the worse defense in the league against the pass at the time. Jones had the hardest schedule over any other QB in the league.



Jones had the hardest schedule, huh? Being in the worst division in football I highly doubt he played the hardest SOS. If that’s what you mean.



Gotta love PFF: Link - ( New Window )

QBs who play poorly will make every defense they face look better.

Gotta love logic.
RE: RE: RE: And McCoy’s 160 yds  
MyNameIsMyName : 2/18/2021 4:40 pm : link
In comment 15156574 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 15156573 MyNameIsMyName said:


Quote:


In comment 15156569 Carl in CT said:


Quote:


Was against the worse defense in the league against the pass at the time. Jones had the hardest schedule over any other QB in the league.



Jones had the hardest schedule, huh? Being in the worst division in football I highly doubt he played the hardest SOS. If that’s what you mean.



Gotta love PFF: Link - ( New Window )


Like I said, no idea what hardest schedule meant. I’d have total defense as a true indication of how good a defense is. So if he played the hardest schedule in that aspect I’ll listen. Don’t think having only a good passing D says much when they might be give up 400 yards a game rushing.
RE: GD  
Gatorade Dunk : 2/18/2021 4:43 pm : link
In comment 15156557 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
I guess that's the holdup then, I don't think anyone actually thinks Jones is or was great. Maybe 1 or 2 posters? Not sure but I haven't read it.

Personally I think i've been pretty reasonable - his supporting cast was trash (especially when Barkley went down) and since he himself isn't a top tier player he isn't good enough to carry an already underwhelming offense. He made some poor throws/decision that lost us 2 games, and then so did Engram. Its unreasonable to get all 4 of those games back but why not 2 of them with even marginal growth and execution?

I agree, you've been reasonable about it, and most fans are.

But there are a few who act like we should just ignore the fact that DJ just had an awful season regardless of excuses, and then those posters keep piling on additional excuses (or resort to insults) when the discussion doesn't go their way.

It's enough to make you hope they'd go golfing or go to a Hornets game.
RE: RE: The Giants won.  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/18/2021 4:46 pm : link
In comment 15156579 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 15156535 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


one of the games Colt McCoy started. But I see it posted by certain posters here frequently that McCoy outplayed Jones. By what metrics??

He had a 60% completion % Had 1 TD and 1 INT and averaged 160 yards passing in those two games.

That's really reaching to try and either uplift McCoy, or more appropriately, try to downgrade Jones.



Producer - your highly intelligent new friend is calling for you here with this compelling show-stopping nugget...


You really have been reduced to being a pathetic shit-stirrer haven't you??

After denying you were LBH15 for a year do you really think you have legitimacy or integrity to be posting anything? Fucking clown
I've  
AcidTest : 2/18/2021 4:49 pm : link
seen enough from Jones (running, more arm strength than I thought based on what I saw from him in college, and leadership) to be optimistic. He played extremely well in a number of games.

Losing Barkley meant that he was frequently throwing against five or more DBs and therefore into extremely tight coverage. Our WRs also really didn't generate a lot of separation, meaning he had to hold the ball longer. That made it more likely he would get hit and fumble.

The OL had chemistry issues, and frequently played two or even three rookies. Engram's constant drops and "pop fly" INTs were maddening.

That doesn't mean he didn't make boneheaded throws and decisions. He was clearly responsible for many of those INTS and fumbles. There were also way too many instances of him playing "hero ball." But many QBs do that when their team is struggling. They feel as the leader of the team they have to make something happen. Eli did the same thing. That of course often makes a bad situation worse, but is pretty common, especially with young QBs.

One way or another, Jones is going to get some more weapons. I want to see what he can do with them before deciding we should "move on" and find someone else.
RE: I've  
GiantGolfer : 2/18/2021 4:54 pm : link
In comment 15156616 AcidTest said:
Quote:
seen enough from Jones (running, more arm strength than I thought based on what I saw from him in college, and leadership) to be optimistic. He played extremely well in a number of games.

Losing Barkley meant that he was frequently throwing against five or more DBs and therefore into extremely tight coverage. Our WRs also really didn't generate a lot of separation, meaning he had to hold the ball longer. That made it more likely he would get hit and fumble.

The OL had chemistry issues, and frequently played two or even three rookies. Engram's constant drops and "pop fly" INTs were maddening.

That doesn't mean he didn't make boneheaded throws and decisions. He was clearly responsible for many of those INTS and fumbles. There were also way too many instances of him playing "hero ball." But many QBs do that when their team is struggling. They feel as the leader of the team they have to make something happen. Eli did the same thing. That of course often makes a bad situation worse, but is pretty common, especially with young QBs.

One way or another, Jones is going to get some more weapons. I want to see what he can do with them before deciding we should "move on" and find someone else.


Way too much logic in this post. You are going to confuse certain people here.
RE: RE: GD  
GiantGolfer : 2/18/2021 4:58 pm : link
In comment 15156610 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15156557 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


I guess that's the holdup then, I don't think anyone actually thinks Jones is or was great. Maybe 1 or 2 posters? Not sure but I haven't read it.

Personally I think i've been pretty reasonable - his supporting cast was trash (especially when Barkley went down) and since he himself isn't a top tier player he isn't good enough to carry an already underwhelming offense. He made some poor throws/decision that lost us 2 games, and then so did Engram. Its unreasonable to get all 4 of those games back but why not 2 of them with even marginal growth and execution?


I agree, you've been reasonable about it, and most fans are.

But there are a few who act like we should just ignore the fact that DJ just had an awful season regardless of excuses, and then those posters keep piling on additional excuses (or resort to insults) when the discussion doesn't go their way.

It's enough to make you hope they'd go golfing or go to a Hornets game.


Nitpick of mine...Nobody “goes golfing”...you “play golf”.

Drives me crazy.
RE: I've  
Jimmy Googs : 2/18/2021 4:58 pm : link
In comment 15156616 AcidTest said:
Quote:
seen enough from Jones (running, more arm strength than I thought based on what I saw from him in college, and leadership) to be optimistic. He played extremely well in a number of games.

Losing Barkley meant that he was frequently throwing against five or more DBs and therefore into extremely tight coverage. Our WRs also really didn't generate a lot of separation, meaning he had to hold the ball longer. That made it more likely he would get hit and fumble.

The OL had chemistry issues, and frequently played two or even three rookies. Engram's constant drops and "pop fly" INTs were maddening.

That doesn't mean he didn't make boneheaded throws and decisions. He was clearly responsible for many of those INTS and fumbles. There were also way too many instances of him playing "hero ball." But many QBs do that when their team is struggling. They feel as the leader of the team they have to make something happen. Eli did the same thing. That of course often makes a bad situation worse, but is pretty common, especially with young QBs.

One way or another, Jones is going to get some more weapons. I want to see what he can do with them before deciding we should "move on" and find someone else.


Agree with Acid here. Get Engram off the field, Barkley back on and add another outside WR and let's see if Jones can move the team and score more points.

Giants aren't going anywhere meaningful anyway next year so lets see if Jones can at least improve, lock down the job and maybe they make the playoffs for once.
RE: Comparing Jones to Eli is a joke  
jvm52106 : 2/18/2021 5:06 pm : link
In comment 15156514 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Different eras, different results.

Eli led one of the highest scoring offenses in the league his second year. Jones the second worst.

Insulting to Eli.


OMG- you are literally changing your own point to suit the player. Eli had had less TD passes in 2005 than Jones in 2019. Jones last year was on coordinator #2 , HC #2 and lost the teams best weapon in week 2. Your constant ignoring of apples to apples is amazing.

Besides, you cherry picked year 2 to Jones year 2 (which was in Eli's favor) and yet year 1 was decidely in Jones favor and it wasn't even close!

You ignore actual circumstances (players on the team, consistent coaching etc.) but then call in circumstance (different eras) to validate your point.
jvm  
Go Terps : 2/18/2021 5:14 pm : link
It's pretty simple:

Eli: poor rookie year, good second year
Jones: poor rookie year, horrendous second year

It's not a comparison that looks good on Jones.
RE: I've  
Big Blue '56 : 2/18/2021 5:14 pm : link
In comment 15156616 AcidTest said:
Quote:
seen enough from Jones (running, more arm strength than I thought based on what I saw from him in college, and leadership) to be optimistic. He played extremely well in a number of games.

Losing Barkley meant that he was frequently throwing against five or more DBs and therefore into extremely tight coverage. Our WRs also really didn't generate a lot of separation, meaning he had to hold the ball longer. That made it more likely he would get hit and fumble.

The OL had chemistry issues, and frequently played two or even three rookies. Engram's constant drops and "pop fly" INTs were maddening.

That doesn't mean he didn't make boneheaded throws and decisions. He was clearly responsible for many of those INTS and fumbles. There were also way too many instances of him playing "hero ball." But many QBs do that when their team is struggling. They feel as the leader of the team they have to make something happen. Eli did the same thing. That of course often makes a bad situation worse, but is pretty common, especially with young QBs.

One way or another, Jones is going to get some more weapons. I want to see what he can do with them before deciding we should "move on" and find someone else.


Nice job and fair, imv
RE: RE: GiantGolfer  
jlukes : 2/18/2021 5:18 pm : link
In comment 15156576 GiantGolfer said:
Quote:
In comment 15156570 Go Terps said:


Quote:


You think that's miserable? I don't know. I think it would be more miserable to lie to myself about the true state of things, and then get upset when that reality plays out on Sundays in the fall. Don't you get tired of kidding yourself and then getting kicked in the balls each season?



I saw a lot of positive this past season with the Giants. I like Joe Judge and think we have the right man for the job. It’s going to take some time to blow it all up and start over, but this year I definitely saw some progress made with some of the young players on the team. We have one playmaker at the skill positions on offense, and he was injured early on. The defense is very promising under Patrick Graham. After Gettleman’s solid off-season last year, I’m optimistic that this off-season will make this team even better.

I don’t watch these games and feel like I got kicked in the nuts when they lose. Sure, I get upset when there’s a bad play. Sure, I feel bad about a loss. But I’m also understanding that it’s not going to happen overnight. I see progress with this team. I’m looking forward to a better 2021 season. Why is that so bad? I’m rooting for my team to win. Complaining over and over again is annoying to other people and I just don’t want to listen to myself doing it. I’d rather focus on the positives. Life is too short to be miserable.

You do you though.






People like terms are just emotionally hedging. It’s sad

Either the Giants keep losing and gets to keep parading around saying he’s right, or the Giants win and he gets to be happy the Giants win.
RE: jvm  
Kyle in NY : 2/18/2021 5:21 pm : link
In comment 15156641 Go Terps said:
Quote:
It's pretty simple:

Eli: poor rookie year, good second year
Jones: poor rookie year, horrendous second year

It's not a comparison that looks good on Jones.


I generally share your skepticism and overall criticism of Jones (no arguments here that his second season was bad), but isn't it a bit disingenuous to call Eli's 2nd year good but Jones rookie year poor? The numbers on their own look pretty similar. Y/A, TD passes, Jones fumbled twice as much but Eli threw five more picks. The offense was much better overall but Tiki also had an MVP caliber season that year to boost the offense. I'd say both seasons were about average. If you want to make the case that standards for passing offenses are much different now than in 2005, I'll buy that. Just an observation though.
Kyle  
Go Terps : 2/18/2021 5:24 pm : link
Passing stats are hugely inflated in 2019 compared to 2005. The more informative comparison would be how they rambled among their contemporaries. I haven't taken a look at that, though.
Eli year 2 vs Jones?  
KWALL2 : 2/18/2021 5:27 pm : link
Drop the head to head comparison. How did they measure up with the NFL?

Eli was #31 in completion % In 05
Jones was #31 in completion % in 20

Eli was #20 in INT %
Jones was #18 in INT %

Eli was #23 in QB rating
Jones was #21 in QB rating

Giants rushing offense was #6 in NFL in 2005
In 2020, NYG rush offense was #19

Eli had the run game and better receiving talent. Tiki had 2300+ scrimmage yards. Plax, Toomer, & Shockley at his best.

Jones had....nothing. He had a terrible year but he looked good in year 1. We should give him more time. Get some WRs and fix the OL.
RE: Eli year 2 vs Jones?  
Britt in VA : 2/18/2021 5:28 pm : link
In comment 15156655 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
Drop the head to head comparison. How did they measure up with the NFL?

Eli was #31 in completion % In 05
Jones was #31 in completion % in 20

Eli was #20 in INT %
Jones was #18 in INT %

Eli was #23 in QB rating
Jones was #21 in QB rating

Giants rushing offense was #6 in NFL in 2005
In 2020, NYG rush offense was #19

Eli had the run game and better receiving talent. Tiki had 2300+ scrimmage yards. Plax, Toomer, & Shockley at his best.

Jones had....nothing. He had a terrible year but he looked good in year 1. We should give him more time. Get some WRs and fix the OL.


That's pretty fair.
Giants run game stats got a big boost  
KWALL2 : 2/18/2021 5:32 pm : link
From Jones. He added 420 yards rushing. Without him that rushing rank is much lower.
Gallman was the top back  
KWALL2 : 2/18/2021 5:33 pm : link
He has 620 yards. The NYG run game in 2020 did not help the young QB.
A case can be made that Eli was better in year 2  
bluepepper : 2/18/2021 5:33 pm : link
than he was in year 3 and year 4. Regular season of course. 20 Int's in 2007. Point is QB development isn't necessarily linear. That's why I remain hopeful on Jones. I thought he was quite good for a rookie in 2019. 2020 was a significant step back. If 2021 looks more like 2020 than 2019 then we have to move on.
Eli was top five in TDs in 2005 too.  
BrettNYG10 : 2/18/2021 5:33 pm : link
I'd add, Eli played in a significantly more complicated offense. Jones plays in a more conservative offense where the turnovers are even less acceptable (IMO).
.....  
BrettNYG10 : 2/18/2021 5:35 pm : link
Lastly, QBs in the aughts took 3-4 years to develop. I don't think they take that long to develop any longer. Eli went from bad in 04, average or so in 05 and kept developing into a top ten QB.

Jones was average/below-average in 19 and really bad in 20 (with the caveats noted).
The weapons Eli in 2005 and Jones had in 2020 alone  
Dave in Hoboken : 2/18/2021 5:36 pm : link
make it a tough comparison. Not to mention, the much better OL the Giants had in 2005. Give Jones those same quality weapons and OL we had in 2005 and Jones has a much better year than he had in 2020.
Brett  
KWALL2 : 2/18/2021 5:37 pm : link
Eli had guys getting open. Jones didn’t. That factors into the completion, TD%, and int %,

Shockey and Barber were easy completions, Jones had nothing easy.
The only reason the boy cried wolf  
ghost718 : 2/18/2021 5:40 pm : link
was because he was wearing a Dan Jones # 8 sweater in the winter.
the wolf that is  
ghost718 : 2/18/2021 5:41 pm : link
.
The Eagles are the team that  
Bear vs Shark : 2/18/2021 5:41 pm : link
back in the day got a 2nd for AJ Feely and a 2nd for Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie PLUS a 2nd for Kevin fucking Kolb, so I'll chalk this one up as a win from a Giants POV since I'm so used to them trading their QBs for way more than they're worth.

Also, side note, but man DRC was so much better on the Giants than on the Eagles.
RE: The weapons Eli in 2005 and Jones had in 2020 alone  
BrettNYG10 : 2/18/2021 5:41 pm : link
In comment 15156666 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
make it a tough comparison. Not to mention, the much better OL the Giants had in 2005. Give Jones those same quality weapons and OL we had in 2005 and Jones has a much better year than he had in 2020.


I thought Eli was going to be an elite QB in 04/05. A top five QB, MVP contender. He never quite developed into that. I don't see that in Jones. I see a guy who might be able to develop into a borderline top 12 guy in his best years, and probably an average guy. I frankly don't have a lot of conviction in my view yet and need another year of data.

But I'm not willing to give Jones year four if we get a mediocre performance from him next year. And I dread seeing the team talk itself into another year of Jones simply because he delivers a better performance than 2020.
RE: Brett  
BrettNYG10 : 2/18/2021 5:43 pm : link
In comment 15156667 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
Eli had guys getting open. Jones didn’t. That factors into the completion, TD%, and int %,

Shockey and Barber were easy completions, Jones had nothing easy.


I definitely think the surrounding team is a factor. The questions I ask myself (and I'm curious on others views as well) are: 1. Do you think Jones can be a top ten QB? 2. How confident are you in that opinion?

For me, I think it's a low probably on #1. On #2, I'm not that confident in that view yet and want another year - hopefully with better weapons.
Jones toughest schedule  
Carl in CT : 2/18/2021 5:44 pm : link
Link.
Link - ( New Window )
If the only point is to defend the decision to give Daniel Jones  
chick310 : 2/18/2021 5:48 pm : link
more time, why wouldn't you just point to that is what Head Coach Joe Judge looks to be doing. At least until the Giants get through the 2021 Draft and don't pick a QB very high.

Using comparisons to Eli Manning is not particularly unfair but seems a bit dangerous knowing what he soon hereafter accomplishes. But moreso, its just not necessary.
RE: Gallman was the top back  
UConn4523 : 2/18/2021 5:48 pm : link
In comment 15156662 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
He has 620 yards. The NYG run game in 2020 did not help the young QB.


Everyone was happy Gallman “hit the hole hard” and “got the tough 3 yards”. Well how did that work out?

Gallman is an ok backup, should never see more than 5-7 touches per game unless it’s a blowout. Was severely missed Barkley and his big play ability.
He was a mess last year  
KWALL2 : 2/18/2021 5:49 pm : link
But coming out of year 1 I thought he had a good shot to be the player we need.

Right now, I have no idea. His running is a major plus. I’d like to see them run more of the options. He can make that work.

I’d like to see them improve the OL, get some WRs. We need 2 WRs.
.....  
BrettNYG10 : 2/18/2021 5:51 pm : link
Thanks, KWALL.

I was optimistic after year one as well. I did go back and re-watch his best games from 2019 and saw some of the bad signs that manifested themselves in 2020. I'm not QB guru, though, so hoping to be wrong.
RE: RE: Eli year 2 vs Jones?  
AcidTest : 2/18/2021 5:55 pm : link
In comment 15156656 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 15156655 KWALL2 said:


Quote:


Drop the head to head comparison. How did they measure up with the NFL?

Eli was #31 in completion % In 05
Jones was #31 in completion % in 20

Eli was #20 in INT %
Jones was #18 in INT %

Eli was #23 in QB rating
Jones was #21 in QB rating

Giants rushing offense was #6 in NFL in 2005
In 2020, NYG rush offense was #19

Eli had the run game and better receiving talent. Tiki had 2300+ scrimmage yards. Plax, Toomer, & Shockley at his best.

Jones had....nothing. He had a terrible year but he looked good in year 1. We should give him more time. Get some WRs and fix the OL.



That's pretty fair.


+2. Excellent post.
RE: RE: RE: You pay the wrong QB and this is what you get  
HomerJones45 : 2/18/2021 6:01 pm : link
In comment 15156322 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15156300 HomerJones45 said:


Quote:


In comment 15156266 Go Terps said:


Quote:


That said, the Eagles are doing the right thing in not chasing the sunk cost. Acknowledge it's over and move on.

But man did they fuck up paying him.

He earned it by his play over a 3 year period. He had a bad year- it happens and in a year or two, that contract will be reasonable for a starting qb. Hell, for all the hand wringing about his contract, his cap hit this season is $25 million and Sporttrac lists the average annual value of his contract as 8th. What do you think these guys get paid?

The Eagles did the same thing we did when the owners panicked after Manning had a bad year, shit-canned the offense that made him a star and saddled him with Aaron Rodgers' coffee go for.



The Eagles won the title without him. As someone (me) once said, we saw how vital he wasn't. Wayback machine is fun - ( New Window )
The Eagles were 11-2 under Wentz that year as the Eagles won the division and got a first round bye. He threw for 33 td's. You don't think he had a hand in winning the SB? Don't be that obtuse.
RE: RE: RE: RE: You pay the wrong QB and this is what you get  
bw in dc : 2/18/2021 6:14 pm : link
In comment 15156686 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
The Eagles were 11-2 under Wentz that year as the Eagles won the division and got a first round bye. He threw for 33 td's. You don't think he had a hand in winning the SB? Don't be that obtuse.


When you get under the hood with Wentz, he did some very good work before this season's debacle. So I understood/understand why the Eagles made the big investment. My concern was always Wentz's durability, not is ability.

After this year, I think both are in play as concerns. But he's reconnecting with Reich, so it's about as ideal as it can be for the reboot.
That eagles team was loaded  
Ten Ton Hammer : 2/18/2021 6:19 pm : link
and probably was the best offensive line of the past 10 years in the NFL.

Yeah, Wentz helped get that team to the postseason. Perfectly fair. Also probably fair to say many QBs could have succeeded under those circumstances.

Ultimately, the eagles paid Carson Wentz a mega contract for 1 good regular season.

He made ONE postseason start for Philadelphia.
I didn’t read this entire thread but  
5BowlsSoon : 2/18/2021 6:57 pm : link
It seems to me many don’t think much of that running qb the Eagles drafted last year and played pretty well down the stretch.

I believe the Eagles do think highly of him and won’t draft a qb high in the draft.
...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 2/18/2021 7:05 pm : link
I wish Wentz well in Indianapolis so it burns Eagle fans.
RE: Eli year 2 vs Jones?  
GiantGolfer : 2/18/2021 7:07 pm : link
In comment 15156655 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
Drop the head to head comparison. How did they measure up with the NFL?

Eli was #31 in completion % In 05
Jones was #31 in completion % in 20

Eli was #20 in INT %
Jones was #18 in INT %

Eli was #23 in QB rating
Jones was #21 in QB rating

Giants rushing offense was #6 in NFL in 2005
In 2020, NYG rush offense was #19

Eli had the run game and better receiving talent. Tiki had 2300+ scrimmage yards. Plax, Toomer, & Shockley at his best.

Jones had....nothing. He had a terrible year but he looked good in year 1. We should give him more time. Get some WRs and fix the OL.


Great post!
How does a thread on Wentz being traded  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 2/18/2021 7:08 pm : link
devolve into Eli vs. DJ sophomore season comparisons? Never change BBI. Never change.
What a disaster for Philly - Wentz was the #2 pick in the whole 2016  
PatersonPlank : 2/18/2021 7:08 pm : link
draft. Now they get a 2nd and 3rd, and still have no QB
In 2016, Jared Goff and Carson Wentz were the first two picks in  
Ira : 2/18/2021 7:11 pm : link
the first round of the draft. In 2021, they were both traded.
RE: What a disaster for Philly - Wentz was the #2 pick in the whole 2016  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 2/18/2021 7:17 pm : link
In comment 15156721 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
draft. Now they get a 2nd and 3rd, and still have no QB


Well, they do have Hurts, though I'm no big fan of his.
RE: That eagles team was loaded  
bw in dc : 2/18/2021 7:19 pm : link
In comment 15156696 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
and probably was the best offensive line of the past 10 years in the NFL.

Yeah, Wentz helped get that team to the postseason. Perfectly fair. Also probably fair to say many QBs could have succeeded under those circumstances.

Ultimately, the eagles paid Carson Wentz a mega contract for 1 good regular season.

He made ONE postseason start for Philadelphia.


Right. He got the concussion very early in that game last year.

But winning, basically, the four playoff games in December to get there was pretty remarkable.
I actually think trading Wentz is a MASSIVE mistake.  
Britt in VA : 2/18/2021 7:21 pm : link
I think this is going to be looked back on as a case study of a knee jerk reaction at QB, the sort of thing people advocate for here.

I hope he goes to the Colts and lights it up. They are a good situation for him.
RE: I actually think trading Wentz is a MASSIVE mistake.  
bw in dc : 2/18/2021 7:31 pm : link
In comment 15156732 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
I think this is going to be looked back on as a case study of a knee jerk reaction at QB, the sort of thing people advocate for here.

I hope he goes to the Colts and lights it up. They are a good situation for him.


The divorce had to happen, but I think you may be right. If Reich can re-program Wentz, the Colts will be in the hunt.
Hard to say  
UConn4523 : 2/18/2021 7:34 pm : link
I think he will do well in Indy, but if the relationship was shot then they had to trade him. So the mistake goes beyond the trade, just like with Hopkins, and every other trade that was made due to a rift.

If I were and Eagles fan I really wouldn’t care either way. They got a ring out of it (even if he didn’t win it) and I would hope that the locker room BS gets cleaned up (whosever fault it was) and they move on in a positive direction. As a Giants fan I hope they rot, haha.
If Wentz can regain his status as a top QB...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 2/18/2021 7:39 pm : link
Colts will be really good.
RE: I actually think trading Wentz is a MASSIVE mistake.  
Sean : 2/18/2021 7:39 pm : link
In comment 15156732 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
I think this is going to be looked back on as a case study of a knee jerk reaction at QB, the sort of thing people advocate for here.

I hope he goes to the Colts and lights it up. They are a good situation for him.


I agree. This is a good day for the rest of the division imo. Wentz’s upside is far greater than Hurts imo.
Would not have traded him unless there was a clear  
chick310 : 2/18/2021 7:43 pm : link
lockerroom issue with Wentz himself and other teammates. I don't see how that gets reconciled easily.

Is that really what has been leaking out about Wentz, or was this more of the coaches/owner losing faith in his abilities?

RE: RE: djm:  
djm : 2/18/2021 7:59 pm : link
In comment 15156351 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15156305 Victor in CT said:


Quote:


"Not that I blame Philly, but it is astounding the leeway BBI shows for other teams while crushing NYG's every move."

spot on.



oh jeez stop being so sensitive..


Who’s sensitive I couldn’t care less. I don’t even blame Philly for dealing wentz. I just think it’s weird that some people are propping up Philly.

This is one weird 4-5 year run for them. I don’t have a dog in this race at all. Wentz could wash out in a year for all I care. I just want Philly to suck. This chain of events certainly doesn’t help their cause but like Robbie and myself posted earlier it does make some sense with new staff in place. It’s just weird, very weird. And pederson is still fired lol. Yes. Weird.
This thread has it all  
djm : 2/18/2021 8:22 pm : link
Just Like a Broadway show. I laughed. I cried.

Thank you everyone.
I thought this thread was about Wentz being traded?  
Kev in Cali : 2/18/2021 9:19 pm : link
?
One more little thing.  
BelieveJJ : 2/18/2021 9:26 pm : link
When it"s the last game of the year, and Indy has already clinched a playoff birth, and Wentz is just approaching the 70% of offensive snaps played mark for the 2nd->1st round condition to kick in...

And Reich sits him down, despite the game result hanging in the balance, cuz he wants to check out his 3rd string laggard.


And Philly gets the 2, only.


Waaaaahhh!!!
Hearing the analytics media praise the Eagles for this trade..  
Sean : 2/19/2021 8:03 am : link
This is where I get annoyed with the hypocrisy. The NFL Ringer show is praising Philly for the trade.

It was not an awful trade for them, it was a decent return given the contract. But, damn this is where the sports media is very tough to take.
RE: Hearing the analytics media praise the Eagles for this trade..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/19/2021 8:20 am : link
In comment 15156931 Sean said:
Quote:
This is where I get annoyed with the hypocrisy. The NFL Ringer show is praising Philly for the trade.

It was not an awful trade for them, it was a decent return given the contract. But, damn this is where the sports media is very tough to take.


Ironically, from an analytics standpoint, the trade is really bad. They gave up a ton of future draft capital to get Wentz and are trading him for a very small return. They gave up two 1st round picks and 5 picks in total.

Basically, they received a draft pick in two separate years for him. A 3rd and a 2nd or 1st. They still have to eat the dead cap space, whether they would have traded him or cut him, and that dead cap is the most in NFL history. Those two picks will do little to repair a roster that has to be stripped due to the cap.

By almost all metrics - it is a really bad trade, and those softshoeing it should put their Giants hats on and ask how they truly would judge the team for making a similar trade.

Hell, Gettleman took shit for two years regarding the Beckham trade and it returned a heck of a lot more than this move.
comparing the Beckham trade  
Dr. D : 2/19/2021 8:45 am : link
Re: "Gettleman took shit for two years regarding the Beckham trade and it returned a heck of a lot more than this move." I agree.

I personally liked the Beckham trade right from the start and it looks even better with time. And if Ximines ever stays healthy and contributes, even better.
RE: comparing the Beckham trade  
Big Blue '56 : 2/19/2021 8:47 am : link
In comment 15156969 Dr. D said:
Quote:
Re: "Gettleman took shit for two years regarding the Beckham trade and it returned a heck of a lot more than this move." I agree.

I personally liked the Beckham trade right from the start and it looks even better with time. And if Ximines ever stays healthy and contributes, even better.


I also liked the trade from the start, but is there anything we can do to stop FMiC from saying Heck? Asking for a friend.
What the Eagles paid to go draft Wentz is one thing and  
chick310 : 2/19/2021 9:00 am : link
and what they decided to pay him on a second contract is another. And right, wrong or indifferent, once they decided Wentz was not in their future plans the dead space is what they knew they had to absorb no matter what. While I would not probably have traded Wentz, all these poor prior decisions can be looked at independent of suggesting the Eagles did a good job of unloading him with their transaction yesterday.

Being able to shed the large future obligations under the contract, still receive some additional draft capital for Wentz who was coming off an awful 2020 performance by most measures, and do so with only one reportedly interested buyer is a reasonably good outcome.

The Wentz deals taken as a whole are not good, but this piece yesterday could have been far worse.

And the only thing that this has to do with the Giants is that hopefully they see the ramifications of making a mistake with a QB and they act cautiously with their own in the future.
RE: RE: That eagles team was loaded  
St. Jimmy : 2/19/2021 9:07 am : link
In comment 15156730 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15156696 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


and probably was the best offensive line of the past 10 years in the NFL.

Yeah, Wentz helped get that team to the postseason. Perfectly fair. Also probably fair to say many QBs could have succeeded under those circumstances.

Ultimately, the eagles paid Carson Wentz a mega contract for 1 good regular season.

He made ONE postseason start for Philadelphia.




Right. He got the concussion very early in that game last year.

But winning, basically, the four playoff games in December to get there was pretty remarkable.
The Eagles played the Redskins once and the Giants twice. Those teams played each other for a loser drafts second overall in the draft.
I think some in the national media have made the point  
Essex : 2/19/2021 9:12 am : link
the Eagles got the best out of a sunken cost that they could have given the situation. With that said, I think the Eagles fans are outraged and the local media (the beats that I follow on Twitter) seem to say whatever you want to say about the return, the fact that they had to trade Wentz after putting all those assets into it represents a huge organizational failure. I guess my point is that I am not sure the Eagles front office has escaped the blame and gotten significantly better treatment from the locals (national yes) than our front office in some of our recent big moves (LW, OBJ, etc).
I see it differently  
UConn4523 : 2/19/2021 9:15 am : link
any QB under 30 that has been productive will have a market and moving them regardless of contract is likely easier than we think. He'd have a huge market as a FA, and I actually think the money would be similar - look what Rivers got on a 1 year deal. Bridgewater is up to $17m this year. Alex Smith over $20m as is Carr, Brees, Brissett ($21m cap hit in 2020 for an absolute JAG). You get the point.
RE: RE: comparing the Beckham trade  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/19/2021 9:24 am : link
In comment 15156970 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 15156969 Dr. D said:


Quote:


Re: "Gettleman took shit for two years regarding the Beckham trade and it returned a heck of a lot more than this move." I agree.

I personally liked the Beckham trade right from the start and it looks even better with time. And if Ximines ever stays healthy and contributes, even better.



I also liked the trade from the start, but is there anything we can do to stop FMiC from saying Heck? Asking for a friend.


If you don't watch it old man, I'm going to break out the blue material!!!!
RE: RE: RE: comparing the Beckham trade  
Big Blue '56 : 2/19/2021 9:28 am : link
In comment 15157009 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
In comment 15156970 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


In comment 15156969 Dr. D said:


Quote:


Re: "Gettleman took shit for two years regarding the Beckham trade and it returned a heck of a lot more than this move." I agree.

I personally liked the Beckham trade right from the start and it looks even better with time. And if Ximines ever stays healthy and contributes, even better.



I also liked the trade from the start, but is there anything we can do to stop FMiC from saying Heck? Asking for a friend.



If you don't watch it old man, I'm going to break out the blue material!!!!


Murderer!
.  
Gruber : 2/19/2021 9:45 am : link
Any chance we can purge the Eli/Jones comparisons from this thread, which is meant to be about Wentz? I don't think I'm alone when I say it just gets so bloody tedious the way a thread gets hijacked once again.
RE: RE: Hearing the analytics media praise the Eagles for this trade..  
Gatorade Dunk : 2/19/2021 12:48 pm : link
In comment 15156938 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
In comment 15156931 Sean said:


Quote:


This is where I get annoyed with the hypocrisy. The NFL Ringer show is praising Philly for the trade.

It was not an awful trade for them, it was a decent return given the contract. But, damn this is where the sports media is very tough to take.



Ironically, from an analytics standpoint, the trade is really bad. They gave up a ton of future draft capital to get Wentz and are trading him for a very small return. They gave up two 1st round picks and 5 picks in total.

Basically, they received a draft pick in two separate years for him. A 3rd and a 2nd or 1st. They still have to eat the dead cap space, whether they would have traded him or cut him, and that dead cap is the most in NFL history. Those two picks will do little to repair a roster that has to be stripped due to the cap.

By almost all metrics - it is a really bad trade, and those softshoeing it should put their Giants hats on and ask how they truly would judge the team for making a similar trade.

Hell, Gettleman took shit for two years regarding the Beckham trade and it returned a heck of a lot more than this move.

That's not really an analytics viewpoint. It's really just valuation 101 - they bought high and sold low AND it cost them a boatload of money on top of the sharp drop in draft capital. There's no advanced analytics required to tell you that's a bad outcome.

That said, one of the things that a nuanced analysis might provide some insight for is how much benefit the Eagles derived while Wentz (in asset terms) was depreciating. For example, the Giants gave up what was considered at the time a king's ransom for Eli, and then they received NOTHING in return when he retired. If you're looking solely at the draft picks given/received, you could make a very basic (and very dumb) argument that the Giants lost that trade because they got nothing at the end of Eli's tenure but had to spend a lot at the start.

But we know they got 15 years of steady, good/great QB play, two SB championships, and one of the franchise's all-time great players and people for that trade. They didn't have to get anything in return at the end of his career for that trade to be considered a huge success.

So, with Wentz, how much did the Eagles get in value during Wentz's tenure, and does that offset the steep drop in draft capital value that they suffered from point A to point B? Here's where it gets tricky, IMO. I think if Wentz had remained healthy in 2017 and been the QB for their SB victory, it would be hard to call the full transactional cycle a loss for them. But he wasn't the QB for that SB, so I don't know how much less credit to assign to Wentz - I think it's fair to say they probably wouldn't have been in the SB without Wentz that season, so he does deserve some credit there.

What really makes the Eagles look bad here is that this deal is coming right on the heels of the Stafford trade, and with a potential Watson trade looming. We're seeing QBs return significant hauls. Wentz, meanwhile, was traded for very little compared to Stafford (and what we can logically assume a trade for Watson would require). In a sense, Wentz was traded for a package that is closer in value to what the Dolphins gave up for a busted Josh Rosen than it is to what the bona fide franchise QBs are going for.

This is where it becomes self-defining, IMO: the Eagles knew they'd be getting pennies on the dollar to trade Wentz this offseason. They could have tried to repair his value and pay down his contract for another season (to reduce the dead money commitment) and then traded him next year if things didn't go especially well. That would have been the reasonable move. And the fact that they still wound up trading him despite how low his value is currently tells me that, in their eyes, he's even worse than that.

They made what appears to be a calculated decision to take their medicine this year with a massive dead money hit and just get a rebuild underway. I suppose there's something faintly admirable about that, but I think there has to be more to it. The only way that it wouldn't make sense to try to rebuild Wentz's value for another year is that there is something potentially toxic about having him on the roster in 2021. Maybe the concern that he'd block Hurts from developing, or the risk that he'd look just as bad or worse this year as he did last year and then his value drops even more.

Personally, I don't see any way to praise the Eagles for this other than to say that there is a possibility that this could end up being the most that they'd have gotten for him now or in the future, and if that's the case, they're better off for acting now rather than waiting. And if that is how it plays out, then it's not this trade that they should be criticized for; it's the trade they made to acquire him in the first place that would be problematic.
i think the Wentz  
ryanmkeane : 2/19/2021 12:54 pm : link
return is all that the Eagles were going to get. League opinion on Wentz has soured based on injuries and the fact that he basically shut out his coach and some teammates in Philly. You don't just automatically get a king's ransom for a guy who was once a great QB....if the times have changed and his performance has severely diminished, and that coupled with injury history and weird ending in Philly....I think they did OK to get what they could for the guy. It's not like some other team offered them something better and they turned it down. They made calls, and got the best deal...what's done is done. I just think Wentz isn't that highly regarded anymore, plus his contract is fucking massive.
the Rams  
ryanmkeane : 2/19/2021 12:56 pm : link
probably overpaid for Stafford, but it was clear a lot of teams were in on him and offering a first round pick plus more. This is one of those things where it seems league opinion on Stafford and what he has left in the tank is significantly higher than a Wentz reclamation project.
chick310 and Gatorade dunk  
Jimmy Googs : 2/19/2021 1:02 pm : link
with good posts above...
RE: I actually think trading Wentz is a MASSIVE mistake.  
HomerJones45 : 2/19/2021 1:09 pm : link
In comment 15156732 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
I think this is going to be looked back on as a case study of a knee jerk reaction at QB, the sort of thing people advocate for here.

I hope he goes to the Colts and lights it up. They are a good situation for him.
Yep.
RE: the Rams  
Gatorade Dunk : 2/19/2021 1:11 pm : link
In comment 15157233 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
probably overpaid for Stafford, but it was clear a lot of teams were in on him and offering a first round pick plus more. This is one of those things where it seems league opinion on Stafford and what he has left in the tank is significantly higher than a Wentz reclamation project.

Again, the Rams paid more for Stafford because of Goff. One of these days you're going to acknowledge that.
RE: chick310 and Gatorade dunk  
bw in dc : 2/19/2021 1:43 pm : link
In comment 15157236 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
with good posts above...


I second that on GD. That was a good read.
RE: Terps  
santacruzom : 2/19/2021 4:23 pm : link
In comment 15156448 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
I If he was a disaster, which he's not...they'd obviously move along.


Evaluating someone who's been an overt disaster is easy, and a luxury that you don't always have. Jones is not a Ryan Leaf-level disaster, and if he were the decision wouldn't even be a decision -- it would be made for you.

Making a decision based on something less overt is the hard part, and being able to make the right decision under those conditions more often than not is what separates the very well run teams from the rest of the pack.
RE: RE: chick310 and Gatorade dunk  
Thegratefulhead : 2/19/2021 4:43 pm : link
In comment 15157280 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15157236 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


with good posts above...



I second that on GD. That was a good read.
Agreed
RE: RE: ryan  
santacruzom : 2/19/2021 4:47 pm : link
In comment 15156459 Britt in VA said:
Quote:

If you DON'T re-sign Wentz, which you are saying they shouldn't have, who do you EVER re-sign?


I think those who think the Wentz contract was a mistake simply never agreed that he was proven to be an elite player and wasn't yet worthy of such an extension. They don't believe he's in the same company of all those QBs who are no-brainers. And if they held that position back then, today proves them right.
RE: RE: ryan  
santacruzom : 2/19/2021 4:59 pm : link
In comment 15156485 jvm52106 said:
Quote:


Eli (years 1 & 2)- 389-754- 4805yds- 30td- 26int and 12 fumbles with a 50.5% compl %

Jones (years 1 & 2)- 564-907-5970yds- 35td- 22int and 23 fumbles with a 62.2% compl %.


The thing is, you can't simply negate any concern about Jones by offering a comparison with another QB's stats from their first two years, and then declare that Jones will likely follow that QB's path. Or if you do, you ought to include someone like this guy who was basically out of the league by year 5:

_____ (Years 1 and 2, 25 starts total): 449-764-5306 - 35 TD - 24 INT and 18 fumbles (5 lost) with a 59% comp.
RE: RE: the Rams  
Kev in Cali : 2/19/2021 8:00 pm : link
In comment 15157245 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15157233 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


probably overpaid for Stafford, but it was clear a lot of teams were in on him and offering a first round pick plus more. This is one of those things where it seems league opinion on Stafford and what he has left in the tank is significantly higher than a Wentz reclamation project.


Again, the Rams paid more for Stafford because of Goff. One of these days you're going to acknowledge that.


Agree! And they got a QB thats has been tried and true to stand in a pocket and take a beating. Goff on the other hand, cringes at the first sign of pressure.

The eagles got rid of their "Goff". I see a connection between Goff/Wentz where, when the pressure was on, they couldn't get it done and make things happen....at least Stafford handled those situations pretty well while on a shitty Detroit team.

SO although the Rams paid up more to fix there mistake, they got a pretty good QB in return. Eagles got squat and just wanted out of him.

RE: RE: Terps  
Producer : 2/19/2021 9:15 pm : link
In comment 15157386 santacruzom said:
Quote:
In comment 15156448 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


I If he was a disaster, which he's not...they'd obviously move along.



Evaluating someone who's been an overt disaster is easy, and a luxury that you don't always have. Jones is not a Ryan Leaf-level disaster, and if he were the decision wouldn't even be a decision -- it would be made for you.

Making a decision based on something less overt is the hard part, and being able to make the right decision under those conditions more often than not is what separates the very well run teams from the rest of the pack.


But Jones' play in year 2 HAS been a disaster. But many claim it is mitigated by his circumstances, poor surrounding cast. I don't buy it but we should find out in year 3 one way or the other.
Wow this thread really devolved...  
lax counsel : 2/20/2021 1:15 am : link
I actually think Wentz is a guy with elite physical traits (not worth much). Now, for what it’s worth, no one has been more right about the state of the organization than Terps over the past few years. We all want the same thing, the glory years for the Giants again, seems very far away. Of course, this thread is really a referendum on Jones- which is fine insofar as this is the most important position in the game.
It's not very hard to say the team sucks when the team sucks.  
Britt in VA : 2/20/2021 8:06 am : link
Reasons may vary.
RE: It's not very hard to say the team sucks when the team sucks.  
chick310 : 2/20/2021 8:24 am : link
In comment 15157582 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
Reasons may vary.


Well, actually a lot of fans have a very hard time coming to grips and saying the team sucks when the team sucks.

They can't see it or believe its nothing other than temporary.

Reasons may vary as well here too.
RE: RE: It's not very hard to say the team sucks when the team sucks.  
BigBlueShock : 2/20/2021 8:37 am : link
In comment 15157588 chick310 said:
Quote:
In comment 15157582 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


Reasons may vary.



Well, actually a lot of fans have a very hard time coming to grips and saying the team sucks when the team sucks.

They can't see it or believe its nothing other than temporary.

Reasons may vary as well here too.

You have an incredible inability to separate fans seeing things that makes them feel that are better days ahead with somehow suggesting they haven’t thought the team has sucked recently. Since you claimed it, I’ll ask you, what posters on this board have said that the team hasn’t sucked recently?

Its not an incredible ability to be able to read  
chick310 : 2/20/2021 9:00 am : link
at least for most, even between the lines. There is fan passion and hope that comes out in a lot of posts, but many can still call a spade a spade. And then there are many that cannot.

I will stand by what I posted.
Well what you posted is dumb.  
Britt in VA : 2/20/2021 9:14 am : link
.
RE: Its not an incredible ability to be able to read  
crick n NC : 2/20/2021 9:14 am : link
In comment 15157599 chick310 said:
Quote:
at least for most, even between the lines. There is fan passion and hope that comes out in a lot of posts, but many can still call a spade a spade. And then there are many that cannot.

I will stand by what I posted.


That is your perception that may not be accurate. I find there is often much miscommunication between individuals for a couple of reasons.

People don't often communicate clearly their position for different reasons

People assume other's positions instead of simply asking.
RE: Its not an incredible ability to be able to read  
BigBlueShock : 2/20/2021 9:22 am : link
In comment 15157599 chick310 said:
Quote:
at least for most, even between the lines. There is fan passion and hope that comes out in a lot of posts, but many can still call a spade a spade. And then there are many that cannot.

I will stand by what I posted.

So stand by it. You said now prove it. Show us all which posters have said this team hasn’t sucked recently. You said it, you’re standing by it now back it up. Who are these posters that think the team hasn’t sucked?
Miscommunications, which clearly occur, aside  
chick310 : 2/20/2021 9:23 am : link
still good with the basic premise noted above.
RE: RE: Its not an incredible ability to be able to read  
chick310 : 2/20/2021 9:34 am : link
In comment 15157613 BigBlueShock said:
Quote:
In comment 15157599 chick310 said:


Quote:


at least for most, even between the lines. There is fan passion and hope that comes out in a lot of posts, but many can still call a spade a spade. And then there are many that cannot.

I will stand by what I posted.


So stand by it. You said now prove it. Show us all which posters have said this team hasn’t sucked recently. You said it, you’re standing by it now back it up. Who are these posters that think the team hasn’t sucked?


Didn't think the statements made should be so confrontational. But I should have realized the site does contain posters with all types of mindsets and demeanors.

I don't need to create your list Joe McCarthy so you can stop asking.
Here's the most basic miscommunication on this board that  
Britt in VA : 2/20/2021 9:36 am : link
is a real struggle for people to rationalize, you ready?

Just because I'm not willing to crucify every move Dave Gettleman makes as a disaster as soon as he makes it (Saquon Barkley, Daniel Jones, Leonard Williams, Odell Beckham, etc...) and am willing to let it play out, I am not actually a defender of Dave Gettleman himself. It just means I can see logical reason for the move and want to see it play out.

At the end of the day, I don't give a shit if Dave Gettleman is fired or not.

Just because I'm not ready to definitively say what Daniel Jones is or isn't right at this moment, does not mean that I think he's a franchise QB that is locked into place never to be replaced.

It's posters like YOU that need to create that fantasy so you have somebody to argue with/troll. You create strawman arguments like the one you just created above, and then double down on it.

Now you're backtracking after being called on it. Read between those lines.
RE: Here's the most basic miscommunication on this board that  
chick310 : 2/20/2021 9:43 am : link
In comment 15157619 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
is a real struggle for people to rationalize, you ready?

Just because I'm not willing to crucify every move Dave Gettleman makes as a disaster as soon as he makes it (Saquon Barkley, Daniel Jones, Leonard Williams, Odell Beckham, etc...) and am willing to let it play out, I am not actually a defender of Dave Gettleman himself. It just means I can see logical reason for the move and want to see it play out.

At the end of the day, I don't give a shit if Dave Gettleman is fired or not.

Just because I'm not ready to definitively say what Daniel Jones is or isn't right at this moment, does not mean that I think he's a franchise QB that is locked into place never to be replaced.

It's posters like YOU that need to create that fantasy so you have somebody to argue with/troll. You create strawman arguments like the one you just created above, and then double down on it.

Now you're backtracking after being called on it. Read between those lines.


Both Dave Gettleman and Daniel Jones deserve another year in my view as well. I have never said otherwise.

You said its not hard to say the team sucks, and I suggested that fans (of many teams by the way not just the NYG) do have a very hard time with that. A general concept that is not hard to believe.

Its not backtracking just to not call out names.
It’s okay for fans opinions/outlook to change re: the Giants  
Sean : 2/20/2021 9:48 am : link
Go Terps gets a lot of shit on this site, but if you’ve been around here for a long time and aren’t a clear dupe (which many are), you’d know that GT was actually very positive during the Coughlin/Eli era in real time. Continued bottom of the league results is going to make anyone annoyed, but he provides context and thought behind his opinions. So, anyone who just lazily takes the approach that he’s always negative is full of shit.

I also vividly remember Britt being negative with regards to the team during the 2017 preseason, where most were positive coming off an 11-5 season. So, the idea that Britt is always pie in the sky with everything the Giants do is wrong.

At the end of the day we are all Giant fans and want the team to win again. I’m hopeful Judge can be that coach and *hopeful* the tide is finally starting to turn. We’ll see.
The team sucks, and has fucking sucked for a LONG time.  
Britt in VA : 2/20/2021 10:43 am : link
You don't need to be a statistics expert to know that.

In fact, constantly pointing to the record over the past 3-9 years is actually kind of pointless. Because if you're posting on a Giants message board, I'm pretty sure everybody knows what the record is. And the record is inarguable. Nobody can argue against that record. You think it's some shocking revelation when somebody comes in to a post and posts the record? Yet it happens nearly every day. It is what it is.

What IS arguable/debatable, are the reasons for the record. What IS arguable/debatable, are the paths needed to be taken for improvement.

But biggest problem on this board these days in regards to those debates are absolute and definitive statements.

Examples: It has been stated here quite a bit that the book on Daniel Jones is written. Daniel Jones is no better than a career backup. He has hit his ceiling. He is not going to get better. Leonard Williams trade IS a disaster, a fireable offense. Jabril Peppers is a crappy player and Gettleman is a joke for saying he's like getting an additional first round pick (immediately following the trade, even though he actually was a 1st round pick).

Do you see the opposite? Do you see people regularly stating that Daniel Jones IS a franchise QB that will start for this franchise for 15 years? Leonard William WILL get 10+ sacks next year (immediately following the trade), Leonard williams WILL be the best player on defense? Jabril Peppers WILL play at an all pro level on this team (immediately following the trade)?

Did you see any of that? No, you saw people saying "Well, that was a surprising move but I think I'll wait and see how it plays out. We needed a QB/DT/DE/S so we'll see what this guy does...

Absolute negatives are considered realism and cautious optimism is labeled as being a homer.

There is nothing wrong with liking some moves the team makes. There is nothing wrong with seeing improvement.

If you don't, and you know for certain it will never improve until x, y, z.... Then why do you even bother with this if you know the answers, but know the Giants aren't doing them so they are doomed to toil in obscurity for the rest of eternity?

I choose to believe after every offseason that the team has the ability to be 10-6 NEXT year. If I don't believe that they can improve, why would I even both watching? Why would I both spending my time talking about the Giants year round? Seems like an exercise in futility if I knew they were never going to get better.
I have absolutely seen this  
Go Terps : 2/20/2021 10:55 am : link
"Do you see people regularly stating that Daniel Jones IS a franchise QB that will start for this franchise for 15 years?"

I've also seen it stated that Jones is better than a recent league MVP.

I've also seen it stated that Barkley is the best back in the league and a Hall of Famer.

I've also seen it stated that Gettleman should be considered for GM of the year.

There are also the constant comparisons between Eli and Jones, which don't make any sense and are disrespectful to Eli.

And then of course there is the endless stream of excuses and rationalizations for why the team sucks.

Real life is this: the Giants are a bad football team, Jones has been terrible in his two seasons, the Barkley pick was a mistake, and the Giants have been poorly run for years.

Could that all change? I suppose it could. There is no reason to believe it though until it actually happens.
If you have seen people state that Jones is a franchise QB for the  
Britt in VA : 2/20/2021 11:01 am : link
next 15 years, I have not, they are wrong.

If you have seen people say Jones is definitively better than Lamar Jackson, then I disagree with them but am certain it was not an apples to apples comparison. Context matters.

Barkley played like the best back in the league his first year, he was at least in the debate. I wouldn't call any player recently drafted a lock HOF'er.

Gettleman for GM of the year is stupid.

Constant comparison between Eli and Jones. This is a major failure to communicate or acknowledge context. Nobody compares Eli to Jones directly. They compare their situations, and what the rest of the roster was like around them. Massive difference.
But this debate is also an exercise in futility at this point.  
Britt in VA : 2/20/2021 11:04 am : link
You are dug in with your stance, and so am I.
The Giants have struggled mightily to improve  
chick310 : 2/20/2021 11:27 am : link
and in many cases the struggles have been self-inflicted. Although that isn't rare with lots of franchises that have reached the peak of their sport.

Thought the Giants played far more competitive football in 2020 than in recent years, but still have a ways to go. Enough that I feel 2021 will still be a struggle, but let's see how it plays out and maybe they will surprise.

Hope so, not just because I am a big fan but because many seem to really need it to happen.

Britt  
Go Terps : 2/20/2021 12:47 pm : link
"I choose to believe after every offseason that the team has the ability to be 10-6 NEXT year. If I don't believe that they can improve, why would I even both watching? Why would I both spending my time talking about the Giants year round? Seems like an exercise in futility if I knew they were never going to get better."

We all hope they get better. But what does what we hope have to do with what's actually happening?

If you see a house being built on sand do you tell yourself it's going to stand up solely because you hope it does? Of course not.

The evidence from the past decade tells us the Giants are poorly run. The evidence from his time at Duke and his time here tells us that Jones isn't a good NFL quarterback. The rest is noise and, to use a word people love using incorrectly, narratives.

It's early, but the evidence appears to point to Judge being a good coach. That is where my hope lies.
Judge won't make  
crick n NC : 2/20/2021 1:05 pm : link
A Difference in the long run if the architects of the Giants are committed to using a foundation of sand for their structure as you believe.
RE: Judge won't make  
Go Terps : 2/20/2021 1:15 pm : link
In comment 15157717 crick n NC said:
Quote:
A Difference in the long run if the architects of the Giants are committed to using a foundation of sand for their structure as you believe.


That's my fear, and why I was so disappointed when Gettleman was retained. Had they moved on from him and collaborated with Judge to hire a GM from outside the organization that would have been a sign of real change. Instead we're left hoping the power dynamics are shifting from Gettleman to Judge - but the extent to which that is actually happening is anyone's guess.
RE: RE: Judge won't make  
crick n NC : 2/20/2021 1:22 pm : link
In comment 15157720 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15157717 crick n NC said:


Quote:


A Difference in the long run if the architects of the Giants are committed to using a foundation of sand for their structure as you believe.



That's my fear, and why I was so disappointed when Gettleman was retained. Had they moved on from him and collaborated with Judge to hire a GM from outside the organization that would have been a sign of real change. Instead we're left hoping the power dynamics are shifting from Gettleman to Judge - but the extent to which that is actually happening is anyone's guess.


One day at a time or one season at a time Mr. Terps. At least that is how I choose to deal with these times or very little fruit.
Of  
crick n NC : 2/20/2021 1:22 pm : link
.
RE: RE: RE: Judge won't make  
Jimmy Googs : 2/20/2021 1:29 pm : link
In comment 15157722 crick n NC said:
Quote:
In comment 15157720 Go Terps said:


Quote:


In comment 15157717 crick n NC said:


Quote:


A Difference in the long run if the architects of the Giants are committed to using a foundation of sand for their structure as you believe.



That's my fear, and why I was so disappointed when Gettleman was retained. Had they moved on from him and collaborated with Judge to hire a GM from outside the organization that would have been a sign of real change. Instead we're left hoping the power dynamics are shifting from Gettleman to Judge - but the extent to which that is actually happening is anyone's guess.



One day at a time or one season at a time Mr. Terps. At least that is how I choose to deal with these times or very little fruit.


Judge brought some positive contributions and created a bit of momentum there last year. Possibly with another decent offseason and a better start in September the team will find its mojo...

We’ll have a better idea in 2 months..  
Sean : 2/20/2021 1:29 pm : link
I think too much emphasis gets put on Gettleman. After listening to the Raanan interview (pinned post), he made a mention that the coaching staff had stronger influence in the offseason last year. Less flashy signings, more smart signings. Signings that fit the philosophy of the program being built as opposed to just throwing a ton of money at Solder or Tate. The signings yielded good results.

Now, does that continue this year? I want to continue to see smart, cost effective signings for players who will fit into Judge’s philosophy. I don’t want to see a WR overpay just because that’s what is needed. Be smart.

An area I’d invest in is backup QB. For all the debate about how good Jones is, something which can’t be disputed is his injuries. Jones has already missed 4 games to injury (2 in each season). Every game is crucial, that must be accounted for.
RE: Eli year 2 vs Jones?  
Debaser : 2/20/2021 9:59 pm : link
In comment 15156655 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
Drop the head to head comparison. How did they measure up with the NFL?

Eli was #31 in completion % In 05
Jones was #31 in completion % in 20

Eli was #20 in INT %
Jones was #18 in INT %

Eli was #23 in QB rating
Jones was #21 in QB rating

Giants rushing offense was #6 in NFL in 2005
In 2020, NYG rush offense was #19

Eli had the run game and better receiving talent. Tiki had 2300+ scrimmage yards. Plax, Toomer, & Shockley at his best.

Jones had....nothing. He had a terrible year but he looked good in year 1. We should give him more time. Get some WRs and fix the OL.


Not this shit again. Let’s conveniently leave out a few things to pretend like Jones is even a starting level qb in the league let alone comparisons to 2x super bowl mvp.

Eli passing in 2005 with 3762 yards 5th in the league
Eli TD is 24 in 2005 4th in league

The only top 5 jones is in — in both of his seasons were fumbles at 18 and 11 respectively.

The myth around here is jones had a good rookie season. And Eli a bad one. My memories of Eli we’re a young qb who had great potential but threw too many interceptions... but still they had a winning team and played clutch to win games. my memories of jones is a great rookie debut; but downhill ever since with mindnumbing bad plays that resulted in momentum destroying turnovers that other teams capitalize on. The result was putting up meaningless numbers down 2 to 3 scores in what could almost be considered garbage time.

And just to tie this all together I’ve seen Wentz make a miracle comeback against up throwing to a back up running back in a ridiculous cone from behind win. When did jones ever do anything like that in “great” rookie year?
*jones had longest run  
Debaser : 2/20/2021 10:02 pm : link
In 2020 season
I can’t help but wonder  
Debaser : 2/20/2021 10:49 pm : link
If this is hopeless optimism on jones or just a disingenuous comparison that is rooted in Eli contempt for either the familiarity of the people just riding to say “I told you so” about Eli being the problem

Does jones really need more weapons or do the giants just need a new OB? The line could use some work. But is Golden Tate ; shep; and a pro bowl TE really that little to work with? I’m not even going to mention the overhyped running back that freeman gallma big enough you the same thing more or less minus the style point (which means nothing on the scoreboard).
Hahahahaa  
KWALL2 : 2/20/2021 11:19 pm : link
You said ‘pro bowl TE’.
Wait....  
KWALL2 : 2/20/2021 11:21 pm : link
You started with Tate. 😂 😝

That guy is not a plus player. Not close. He’ll be cut and out of the league this year.
Whatever  
Debaser : 2/21/2021 12:04 am : link
There is nothing you can point to that jones is not a major reason why this team is not playing poorly.

We can talk about olives and I can talk about Andrew luck having success with a bad online. We can wax philosophies about players who have a track record of success and have multi million dollar contracts that they don’t deserve in the case of Tate or pro bowls they don’t deserve in the case of Engram. But at the end of the day, you can’t point to anything except revisionist history about Eli Manning. Eli “s numbers were top 5 and I would think Eli was a top 8 qb in the league. Jones by every indication looks to be bottom 5. If jones wasn’t drafted 6th —a ridiculous overdraft—he would be sitting on a bench right now.

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