Philadelphia has agreed to trade Carson Wentz to the Indianapolis Colts in exchange for a 2021 third-round pick and a conditional 2022 second-round pick that could turn into a first, league sources tell
@mortreport
and me.
If he was a disaster, which he's not...they'd obviously move along.
Two points:
1. If Jones isn't a disaster, then what's the definition of disaster? He's a #6 pick overall, his stats are poor, the offense is VERY poor with him at QB, and the Giants are 8-18 with him at quarterback.
If that's not a disaster two years in, then what is? There isn't much room for it to be worse...you're talking Jamarcus Russell/Dwayne Haskins/Ryan Leaf as the only level below him.
2. Would the Giants move on from him? They've shown us many times that they are very slow to acknowledge and move on from a bad situation. I'm not even 100% convinced they move on from him if he has a poor 2021. I'd hope they would, but I'm not 100% on it...their delusion runs deep.
And just curious, does this timeframe apply to Barkley? Because if it does...
OH my god, you never stop. Jones is not and has not been a disaster. By your account Eli was a disaster years 1 and 2. Don't give me different times bullshit either as Eli had FAR more talent on those teams than Jones has ever had here.
Eli (years 1 & 2)- 389-754- 4805yds- 30td- 26int and 12 fumbles with a 50.5% compl %
Jones (years 1 & 2)- 564-907-5970yds- 35td- 22int and 23 fumbles with a 62.2% compl %.
Fumbles are the only area Jones is the only negative area compared to Eli after 2 years. Jones hasn't had Tiki, Jacobs, Burress, Shockey, Toomer etc and sure the hell didn't have that Oline either.
Excellent post. Terps harps on Jones “poor stats”, but those stats are pretty darn good when you look at the lack of playmakers he has in the field with him.
Terps is flat out WRONG here.
+2.
umm no.. bad stats are bad stats. He's bottom 6 in the league. there is no "normalizing" principle that tells you: "No he is not the 27th best QB, he's the 12th."
He doesn't get credit for production that he doesn't have. He is bad. And until he plays well he is just bad. Now you may *believe* he will get better as the supporting cast gets better, and you might be correct, but you might not be correct, he may improve just moderately and remain an inadequate QB who hurts our chances to win Super Bowls. And the probabilities don't favor you as Jones has a track record of bad football. And while the supporting cast has not been ideal, it improved some over the course of the season and Jones pretty much still played poorly, and was even outplayed by Colt McCoy, of all people, in his brief stint. And of course there is the chicken and the egg argument: Does DJ play poorly because of the supporting cast? Or does the supporting cast seem worse than they are because of DJ?
but Osweiler was never considered part of the future for the Browns, they basically bought picks.
Goff will actually be the starter and can stabilize them at QB, keeping them from reaching in the draft. And of course they would have paid less for Stafford without the big contract, but how else is this supposed to work when the QB is on the team already? They wouldn't be rostering both anyway.
The contract is inherent otherwise there wouldn't be a trade.
The Lions didn't have to absorb Goff in the trade. They could have traded Stafford elsewhere or waited for the Rams to trade Goff elsewhere before making the trade just for picks. The Lions got more from the Rams for taking on Goff's contract, because there was no other way for the Rams to afford to make the trade - they could not afford to take on Stafford's contract with Goff still on the roster, and even if they could, they'd have absolutely no leverage to move Goff once they acquired Stafford. Add to that how much worse the dead money would have been for the Rams if they couldn't find a taker for Goff, and it left them in a position where they had to overpay for Stafford in order to ensure Goff was included in the deal.
And yes, I agree that they do likely see Goff as a potential solution, but with limited downside, and there's no guarantee that they seem him as part of the future either, but are content with him to be their QB right now. Certainly, they could do worse at QB, so Goff's worth taking a chance on because of the draft picks they received.
At worst, he'll be a bridge to their next QB, which is fine since they're rebuilding anyway. If Goff struggles, the Lions can be out of his contract in two years with no dead money, but they're on the hook for $50MM over the next two years (or $40MM for just this year if he completely implodes).
what does it matter if we hope Jones plays better? I still don't understand the negative connotation with that word around here. I'm not the GM making decisions, im a fan that hopes the whole team is better in 2021.
The performance of the offense and the team in general is very poor. That is fact, not a narrative.
When you start comparing to quarterbacks from other eras and making excuses for that poor performance - that's when you get into narratives.
Two years in, Jones has been poor. That's not a narrative. How it relates to Wentz is simple - Wentz (like Goff) is a stark lesson in not paying a second contract to a QB who doesn't merit it. The Giants are dealing with that question now.
Daniel Jones was put in a tough spot following Eli with no weapons. He is not a disaster.
You hope.
There is nothing that should give you enough confidence to be so definitive about that, however.
I disagree. Your gonna have to deal with that.
I already know there's a lot of people who are wrong about a lot of things (it could be football, it could be grammar, it could be anything) in all walks of life. I've come to terms with it.
Eli led one of the highest scoring offenses in the league his second year. Jones the second worst.
Insulting to Eli.
Shocking. Because it doesn’t fit your narrative. We get it.
No, because it just isn't the truth. You can compare Jones to Sid Luckman and his numbers are going to be good too.
Offensive football was very different in 2005. Amongst his contemporaries Eli could fairly have been considered a promising player. In year two he led a high scoring offense and the team went 11-5.
How is Jones doing amongst his contemporaries? The answer is he completely fucking blows.
What kind of talent did Eli have around him on the offense? Any better than what Jones has?
It’s not even close. Eli had Tiki who rushed for almost 2000 yards, Plax, Shockley and Toomer. Jones has....Slayton? Gallman??
what does it matter if we hope Jones plays better? I still don't understand the negative connotation with that word around here. I'm not the GM making decisions, im a fan that hopes the whole team is better in 2021.
we're all Giants fans here. We all want Jones to play better. The naysayers want Jones to shut us up. That should be a given. We're not fans of other teams wasting hours pretending to be Giants fans who are skeptical of Jones. Which is the ludicrous assumption made by some on this board.
Daniel Jones was put in a tough spot following Eli with no weapons. He is not a disaster.
You hope.
There is nothing that should give you enough confidence to be so definitive about that, however.
I disagree. Your gonna have to deal with that.
I already know there's a lot of people who are wrong about a lot of things (it could be football, it could be grammar, it could be anything) in all walks of life. I've come to terms with it.
Way to man up about it. I give you props for that.
so what's the issue? If he goes out next year, posts 20 TDs and 15 INTs going 7-9 and gets a big extension then I think we'd all be pissed. But until that happens what exactly is the argument?
did not have much of choice especially with a new HC on board. Best for Wentz to get a clean start. Philly will be looking for a new QB in this year or next.
One thing I think we are seeing is a changing QB landscape. Three former 1st round picks (two who are young) moving to new teams. Then you have Prescott, Wilson and Watson who at least you have heard rumblings of moving. Ryan and Rogers potentially in a year or so.
Perhaps we see more teams looking to acquire a QB this way. Build a good team and then get a developed veteran versus either get fortunate in the draft or having to give up lots draft capital for a unknown.
what does it matter if we hope Jones plays better? I still don't understand the negative connotation with that word around here. I'm not the GM making decisions, im a fan that hopes the whole team is better in 2021.
My point is that Jones has played two seasons, one of which was very promising and the other was really bad.
I am not declaring Jones's 2020 to be his true level and 2019 to be the mirage; I think there are some troubling signs there but also know he's going to get another chance. So I also hope that he's more like the 2019 version.
My point of harping on it being pure hope is to point out when posters act like it's a fact that Jones is great and that 2020 was completely out of his control.
We hope that he returns to the 2019 form (without the fumbles), but we have nothing besides optimism to base that on. So when GiantGolfer (or whoever else) acts like it's a certainty, I think it's worth pointing out that it's just hope. Such is the nature of a QB who has had two very different seasons - it's just not possible to know yet which one is the real DJ.
Wentz stinks. He will stink in Indy too and they will pay him 30M per year. Was never worth half that money. Dumping that atrocious contract and getting two picks was a big win for Philly.
so what's the issue? If he goes out next year, posts 20 TDs and 15 INTs going 7-9 and gets a big extension then I think we'd all be pissed. But until that happens what exactly is the argument?
so what's the issue? If he goes out next year, posts 20 TDs and 15 INTs going 7-9 and gets a big extension then I think we'd all be pissed. But until that happens what exactly is the argument?
Terps NEEDS to be right. He’s lost without it.
No, I just need the Giants to stop sucking. Until they stop sucking I'm going to keep bitching about it, and why they suck.
I have to agree with Terps, Daniel Jones is a bad QB as of right now. Can he turn it around with some more weapons, a 2nd year in a offensive system and an improved Oline? Yes, but lets wait and see if that happens.
so what's the issue? If he goes out next year, posts 20 TDs and 15 INTs going 7-9 and gets a big extension then I think we'd all be pissed. But until that happens what exactly is the argument?
Terps NEEDS to be right. He’s lost without it.
No, I just need the Giants to stop sucking. Until they stop sucking I'm going to keep bitching about it, and why they suck.
I guess that's the holdup then, I don't think anyone actually thinks Jones is or was great. Maybe 1 or 2 posters? Not sure but I haven't read it.
Personally I think i've been pretty reasonable - his supporting cast was trash (especially when Barkley went down) and since he himself isn't a top tier player he isn't good enough to carry an already underwhelming offense. He made some poor throws/decision that lost us 2 games, and then so did Engram. Its unreasonable to get all 4 of those games back but why not 2 of them with even marginal growth and execution?
You think that's miserable? I don't know. I think it would be more miserable to lie to myself about the true state of things, and then get upset when that reality plays out on Sundays in the fall. Don't you get tired of kidding yourself and then getting kicked in the balls each season?
You think that's miserable? I don't know. I think it would be more miserable to lie to myself about the true state of things, and then get upset when that reality plays out on Sundays in the fall. Don't you get tired of kidding yourself and then getting kicked in the balls each season?
I saw a lot of positive this past season with the Giants. I like Joe Judge and think we have the right man for the job. It’s going to take some time to blow it all up and start over, but this year I definitely saw some progress made with some of the young players on the team. We have one playmaker at the skill positions on offense, and he was injured early on. The defense is very promising under Patrick Graham. After Gettleman’s solid off-season last year, I’m optimistic that this off-season will make this team even better.
I don’t watch these games and feel like I got kicked in the nuts when they lose. Sure, I get upset when there’s a bad play. Sure, I feel bad about a loss. But I’m also understanding that it’s not going to happen overnight. I see progress with this team. I’m looking forward to a better 2021 season. Why is that so bad? I’m rooting for my team to win. Complaining over and over again is annoying to other people and I just don’t want to listen to myself doing it. I’d rather focus on the positives. Life is too short to be miserable.
Was against the worse defense in the league against the pass at the time. Jones had the hardest schedule over any other QB in the league.
Jones had the hardest schedule, huh? Being in the worst division in football I highly doubt he played the hardest SOS. If that’s what you mean.
Gotta love PFF: Link - ( New Window )
Like I said, no idea what hardest schedule meant. I’d have total defense as a true indication of how good a defense is. So if he played the hardest schedule in that aspect I’ll listen. Don’t think having only a good passing D says much when they might be give up 400 yards a game rushing.
I guess that's the holdup then, I don't think anyone actually thinks Jones is or was great. Maybe 1 or 2 posters? Not sure but I haven't read it.
Personally I think i've been pretty reasonable - his supporting cast was trash (especially when Barkley went down) and since he himself isn't a top tier player he isn't good enough to carry an already underwhelming offense. He made some poor throws/decision that lost us 2 games, and then so did Engram. Its unreasonable to get all 4 of those games back but why not 2 of them with even marginal growth and execution?
I agree, you've been reasonable about it, and most fans are.
But there are a few who act like we should just ignore the fact that DJ just had an awful season regardless of excuses, and then those posters keep piling on additional excuses (or resort to insults) when the discussion doesn't go their way.
It's enough to make you hope they'd go golfing or go to a Hornets game.
seen enough from Jones (running, more arm strength than I thought based on what I saw from him in college, and leadership) to be optimistic. He played extremely well in a number of games.
Losing Barkley meant that he was frequently throwing against five or more DBs and therefore into extremely tight coverage. Our WRs also really didn't generate a lot of separation, meaning he had to hold the ball longer. That made it more likely he would get hit and fumble.
The OL had chemistry issues, and frequently played two or even three rookies. Engram's constant drops and "pop fly" INTs were maddening.
That doesn't mean he didn't make boneheaded throws and decisions. He was clearly responsible for many of those INTS and fumbles. There were also way too many instances of him playing "hero ball." But many QBs do that when their team is struggling. They feel as the leader of the team they have to make something happen. Eli did the same thing. That of course often makes a bad situation worse, but is pretty common, especially with young QBs.
One way or another, Jones is going to get some more weapons. I want to see what he can do with them before deciding we should "move on" and find someone else.
seen enough from Jones (running, more arm strength than I thought based on what I saw from him in college, and leadership) to be optimistic. He played extremely well in a number of games.
Losing Barkley meant that he was frequently throwing against five or more DBs and therefore into extremely tight coverage. Our WRs also really didn't generate a lot of separation, meaning he had to hold the ball longer. That made it more likely he would get hit and fumble.
The OL had chemistry issues, and frequently played two or even three rookies. Engram's constant drops and "pop fly" INTs were maddening.
That doesn't mean he didn't make boneheaded throws and decisions. He was clearly responsible for many of those INTS and fumbles. There were also way too many instances of him playing "hero ball." But many QBs do that when their team is struggling. They feel as the leader of the team they have to make something happen. Eli did the same thing. That of course often makes a bad situation worse, but is pretty common, especially with young QBs.
One way or another, Jones is going to get some more weapons. I want to see what he can do with them before deciding we should "move on" and find someone else.
Way too much logic in this post. You are going to confuse certain people here.
I guess that's the holdup then, I don't think anyone actually thinks Jones is or was great. Maybe 1 or 2 posters? Not sure but I haven't read it.
Personally I think i've been pretty reasonable - his supporting cast was trash (especially when Barkley went down) and since he himself isn't a top tier player he isn't good enough to carry an already underwhelming offense. He made some poor throws/decision that lost us 2 games, and then so did Engram. Its unreasonable to get all 4 of those games back but why not 2 of them with even marginal growth and execution?
I agree, you've been reasonable about it, and most fans are.
But there are a few who act like we should just ignore the fact that DJ just had an awful season regardless of excuses, and then those posters keep piling on additional excuses (or resort to insults) when the discussion doesn't go their way.
It's enough to make you hope they'd go golfing or go to a Hornets game.
Nitpick of mine...Nobody “goes golfing”...you “play golf”.
seen enough from Jones (running, more arm strength than I thought based on what I saw from him in college, and leadership) to be optimistic. He played extremely well in a number of games.
Losing Barkley meant that he was frequently throwing against five or more DBs and therefore into extremely tight coverage. Our WRs also really didn't generate a lot of separation, meaning he had to hold the ball longer. That made it more likely he would get hit and fumble.
The OL had chemistry issues, and frequently played two or even three rookies. Engram's constant drops and "pop fly" INTs were maddening.
That doesn't mean he didn't make boneheaded throws and decisions. He was clearly responsible for many of those INTS and fumbles. There were also way too many instances of him playing "hero ball." But many QBs do that when their team is struggling. They feel as the leader of the team they have to make something happen. Eli did the same thing. That of course often makes a bad situation worse, but is pretty common, especially with young QBs.
One way or another, Jones is going to get some more weapons. I want to see what he can do with them before deciding we should "move on" and find someone else.
Agree with Acid here. Get Engram off the field, Barkley back on and add another outside WR and let's see if Jones can move the team and score more points.
Giants aren't going anywhere meaningful anyway next year so lets see if Jones can at least improve, lock down the job and maybe they make the playoffs for once.
Eli led one of the highest scoring offenses in the league his second year. Jones the second worst.
Insulting to Eli.
OMG- you are literally changing your own point to suit the player. Eli had had less TD passes in 2005 than Jones in 2019. Jones last year was on coordinator #2 , HC #2 and lost the teams best weapon in week 2. Your constant ignoring of apples to apples is amazing.
Besides, you cherry picked year 2 to Jones year 2 (which was in Eli's favor) and yet year 1 was decidely in Jones favor and it wasn't even close!
You ignore actual circumstances (players on the team, consistent coaching etc.) but then call in circumstance (different eras) to validate your point.
seen enough from Jones (running, more arm strength than I thought based on what I saw from him in college, and leadership) to be optimistic. He played extremely well in a number of games.
Losing Barkley meant that he was frequently throwing against five or more DBs and therefore into extremely tight coverage. Our WRs also really didn't generate a lot of separation, meaning he had to hold the ball longer. That made it more likely he would get hit and fumble.
The OL had chemistry issues, and frequently played two or even three rookies. Engram's constant drops and "pop fly" INTs were maddening.
That doesn't mean he didn't make boneheaded throws and decisions. He was clearly responsible for many of those INTS and fumbles. There were also way too many instances of him playing "hero ball." But many QBs do that when their team is struggling. They feel as the leader of the team they have to make something happen. Eli did the same thing. That of course often makes a bad situation worse, but is pretty common, especially with young QBs.
One way or another, Jones is going to get some more weapons. I want to see what he can do with them before deciding we should "move on" and find someone else.
You think that's miserable? I don't know. I think it would be more miserable to lie to myself about the true state of things, and then get upset when that reality plays out on Sundays in the fall. Don't you get tired of kidding yourself and then getting kicked in the balls each season?
I saw a lot of positive this past season with the Giants. I like Joe Judge and think we have the right man for the job. It’s going to take some time to blow it all up and start over, but this year I definitely saw some progress made with some of the young players on the team. We have one playmaker at the skill positions on offense, and he was injured early on. The defense is very promising under Patrick Graham. After Gettleman’s solid off-season last year, I’m optimistic that this off-season will make this team even better.
I don’t watch these games and feel like I got kicked in the nuts when they lose. Sure, I get upset when there’s a bad play. Sure, I feel bad about a loss. But I’m also understanding that it’s not going to happen overnight. I see progress with this team. I’m looking forward to a better 2021 season. Why is that so bad? I’m rooting for my team to win. Complaining over and over again is annoying to other people and I just don’t want to listen to myself doing it. I’d rather focus on the positives. Life is too short to be miserable.
You do you though.
People like terms are just emotionally hedging. It’s sad
Either the Giants keep losing and gets to keep parading around saying he’s right, or the Giants win and he gets to be happy the Giants win.
Eli: poor rookie year, good second year
Jones: poor rookie year, horrendous second year
It's not a comparison that looks good on Jones.
I generally share your skepticism and overall criticism of Jones (no arguments here that his second season was bad), but isn't it a bit disingenuous to call Eli's 2nd year good but Jones rookie year poor? The numbers on their own look pretty similar. Y/A, TD passes, Jones fumbled twice as much but Eli threw five more picks. The offense was much better overall but Tiki also had an MVP caliber season that year to boost the offense. I'd say both seasons were about average. If you want to make the case that standards for passing offenses are much different now than in 2005, I'll buy that. Just an observation though.
Passing stats are hugely inflated in 2019 compared to 2005. The more informative comparison would be how they rambled among their contemporaries. I haven't taken a look at that, though.
than he was in year 3 and year 4. Regular season of course. 20 Int's in 2007. Point is QB development isn't necessarily linear. That's why I remain hopeful on Jones. I thought he was quite good for a rookie in 2019. 2020 was a significant step back. If 2021 looks more like 2020 than 2019 then we have to move on.
I'd add, Eli played in a significantly more complicated offense. Jones plays in a more conservative offense where the turnovers are even less acceptable (IMO).
Lastly, QBs in the aughts took 3-4 years to develop. I don't think they take that long to develop any longer. Eli went from bad in 04, average or so in 05 and kept developing into a top ten QB.
Jones was average/below-average in 19 and really bad in 20 (with the caveats noted).
The weapons Eli in 2005 and Jones had in 2020 alone
make it a tough comparison. Not to mention, the much better OL the Giants had in 2005. Give Jones those same quality weapons and OL we had in 2005 and Jones has a much better year than he had in 2020.
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In comment 15156485 jvm52106 said:
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In comment 15156455 Go Terps said:
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I think this is a key sentence:
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If he was a disaster, which he's not...they'd obviously move along.
Two points:
1. If Jones isn't a disaster, then what's the definition of disaster? He's a #6 pick overall, his stats are poor, the offense is VERY poor with him at QB, and the Giants are 8-18 with him at quarterback.
If that's not a disaster two years in, then what is? There isn't much room for it to be worse...you're talking Jamarcus Russell/Dwayne Haskins/Ryan Leaf as the only level below him.
2. Would the Giants move on from him? They've shown us many times that they are very slow to acknowledge and move on from a bad situation. I'm not even 100% convinced they move on from him if he has a poor 2021. I'd hope they would, but I'm not 100% on it...their delusion runs deep.
And just curious, does this timeframe apply to Barkley? Because if it does...
OH my god, you never stop. Jones is not and has not been a disaster. By your account Eli was a disaster years 1 and 2. Don't give me different times bullshit either as Eli had FAR more talent on those teams than Jones has ever had here.
Eli (years 1 & 2)- 389-754- 4805yds- 30td- 26int and 12 fumbles with a 50.5% compl %
Jones (years 1 & 2)- 564-907-5970yds- 35td- 22int and 23 fumbles with a 62.2% compl %.
Fumbles are the only area Jones is the only negative area compared to Eli after 2 years. Jones hasn't had Tiki, Jacobs, Burress, Shockey, Toomer etc and sure the hell didn't have that Oline either.
Excellent post. Terps harps on Jones “poor stats”, but those stats are pretty darn good when you look at the lack of playmakers he has in the field with him.
Terps is flat out WRONG here.
+2.
umm no.. bad stats are bad stats. He's bottom 6 in the league. there is no "normalizing" principle that tells you: "No he is not the 27th best QB, he's the 12th."
He doesn't get credit for production that he doesn't have. He is bad. And until he plays well he is just bad. Now you may *believe* he will get better as the supporting cast gets better, and you might be correct, but you might not be correct, he may improve just moderately and remain an inadequate QB who hurts our chances to win Super Bowls. And the probabilities don't favor you as Jones has a track record of bad football. And while the supporting cast has not been ideal, it improved some over the course of the season and Jones pretty much still played poorly, and was even outplayed by Colt McCoy, of all people, in his brief stint. And of course there is the chicken and the egg argument: Does DJ play poorly because of the supporting cast? Or does the supporting cast seem worse than they are because of DJ?
Goff will actually be the starter and can stabilize them at QB, keeping them from reaching in the draft. And of course they would have paid less for Stafford without the big contract, but how else is this supposed to work when the QB is on the team already? They wouldn't be rostering both anyway.
The contract is inherent otherwise there wouldn't be a trade.
The Lions didn't have to absorb Goff in the trade. They could have traded Stafford elsewhere or waited for the Rams to trade Goff elsewhere before making the trade just for picks. The Lions got more from the Rams for taking on Goff's contract, because there was no other way for the Rams to afford to make the trade - they could not afford to take on Stafford's contract with Goff still on the roster, and even if they could, they'd have absolutely no leverage to move Goff once they acquired Stafford. Add to that how much worse the dead money would have been for the Rams if they couldn't find a taker for Goff, and it left them in a position where they had to overpay for Stafford in order to ensure Goff was included in the deal.
And yes, I agree that they do likely see Goff as a potential solution, but with limited downside, and there's no guarantee that they seem him as part of the future either, but are content with him to be their QB right now. Certainly, they could do worse at QB, so Goff's worth taking a chance on because of the draft picks they received.
At worst, he'll be a bridge to their next QB, which is fine since they're rebuilding anyway. If Goff struggles, the Lions can be out of his contract in two years with no dead money, but they're on the hook for $50MM over the next two years (or $40MM for just this year if he completely implodes).
When you start comparing to quarterbacks from other eras and making excuses for that poor performance - that's when you get into narratives.
Two years in, Jones has been poor. That's not a narrative. How it relates to Wentz is simple - Wentz (like Goff) is a stark lesson in not paying a second contract to a QB who doesn't merit it. The Giants are dealing with that question now.
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In comment 15156510 GiantGolfer said:
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Daniel Jones was put in a tough spot following Eli with no weapons. He is not a disaster.
You hope.
There is nothing that should give you enough confidence to be so definitive about that, however.
I disagree. Your gonna have to deal with that.
I already know there's a lot of people who are wrong about a lot of things (it could be football, it could be grammar, it could be anything) in all walks of life. I've come to terms with it.
No, because it just isn't the truth. You can compare Jones to Sid Luckman and his numbers are going to be good too.
That was very funny.
Although Luckman did have a great year in '43 with 28TDs/12 INTs, 10.9 YPA...in only ten games. ;)
He had a 60% completion % Had 1 TD and 1 INT and averaged 160 yards passing in those two games.
That's really reaching to try and either uplift McCoy, or more appropriately, try to downgrade Jones.
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In comment 15156514 Go Terps said:
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Different eras, different results.
Eli led one of the highest scoring offenses in the league his second year. Jones the second worst.
Insulting to Eli.
Shocking. Because it doesn’t fit your narrative. We get it.
No, because it just isn't the truth. You can compare Jones to Sid Luckman and his numbers are going to be good too.
Offensive football was very different in 2005. Amongst his contemporaries Eli could fairly have been considered a promising player. In year two he led a high scoring offense and the team went 11-5.
How is Jones doing amongst his contemporaries? The answer is he completely fucking blows.
What kind of talent did Eli have around him on the offense? Any better than what Jones has?
It’s not even close. Eli had Tiki who rushed for almost 2000 yards, Plax, Shockley and Toomer. Jones has....Slayton? Gallman??
Just stop.
we're all Giants fans here. We all want Jones to play better. The naysayers want Jones to shut us up. That should be a given. We're not fans of other teams wasting hours pretending to be Giants fans who are skeptical of Jones. Which is the ludicrous assumption made by some on this board.
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In comment 15156513 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15156510 GiantGolfer said:
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Daniel Jones was put in a tough spot following Eli with no weapons. He is not a disaster.
You hope.
There is nothing that should give you enough confidence to be so definitive about that, however.
I disagree. Your gonna have to deal with that.
I already know there's a lot of people who are wrong about a lot of things (it could be football, it could be grammar, it could be anything) in all walks of life. I've come to terms with it.
Way to man up about it. I give you props for that.
One thing I think we are seeing is a changing QB landscape. Three former 1st round picks (two who are young) moving to new teams. Then you have Prescott, Wilson and Watson who at least you have heard rumblings of moving. Ryan and Rogers potentially in a year or so.
Perhaps we see more teams looking to acquire a QB this way. Build a good team and then get a developed veteran versus either get fortunate in the draft or having to give up lots draft capital for a unknown.
It’s not even close. Eli had Tiki who rushed for almost 2000 yards, Plax, Shockley and Toomer. Jones has....Slayton? Gallman??
Just stop.
Now see, THIS is a narrative.
My point is that Jones has played two seasons, one of which was very promising and the other was really bad.
I am not declaring Jones's 2020 to be his true level and 2019 to be the mirage; I think there are some troubling signs there but also know he's going to get another chance. So I also hope that he's more like the 2019 version.
My point of harping on it being pure hope is to point out when posters act like it's a fact that Jones is great and that 2020 was completely out of his control.
We hope that he returns to the 2019 form (without the fumbles), but we have nothing besides optimism to base that on. So when GiantGolfer (or whoever else) acts like it's a certainty, I think it's worth pointing out that it's just hope. Such is the nature of a QB who has had two very different seasons - it's just not possible to know yet which one is the real DJ.
Terps NEEDS to be right. He’s lost without it.
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so what's the issue? If he goes out next year, posts 20 TDs and 15 INTs going 7-9 and gets a big extension then I think we'd all be pissed. But until that happens what exactly is the argument?
Terps NEEDS to be right. He’s lost without it.
No, I just need the Giants to stop sucking. Until they stop sucking I'm going to keep bitching about it, and why they suck.
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In comment 15156540 UConn4523 said:
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so what's the issue? If he goes out next year, posts 20 TDs and 15 INTs going 7-9 and gets a big extension then I think we'd all be pissed. But until that happens what exactly is the argument?
Terps NEEDS to be right. He’s lost without it.
No, I just need the Giants to stop sucking. Until they stop sucking I'm going to keep bitching about it, and why they suck.
What a miserable way to live.
Personally I think i've been pretty reasonable - his supporting cast was trash (especially when Barkley went down) and since he himself isn't a top tier player he isn't good enough to carry an already underwhelming offense. He made some poor throws/decision that lost us 2 games, and then so did Engram. Its unreasonable to get all 4 of those games back but why not 2 of them with even marginal growth and execution?
Jones had the hardest schedule, huh? Being in the worst division in football I highly doubt he played the hardest SOS. If that’s what you mean.
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Was against the worse defense in the league against the pass at the time. Jones had the hardest schedule over any other QB in the league.
Jones had the hardest schedule, huh? Being in the worst division in football I highly doubt he played the hardest SOS. If that’s what you mean.
Gotta love PFF:
Link - ( New Window )
I saw a lot of positive this past season with the Giants. I like Joe Judge and think we have the right man for the job. It’s going to take some time to blow it all up and start over, but this year I definitely saw some progress made with some of the young players on the team. We have one playmaker at the skill positions on offense, and he was injured early on. The defense is very promising under Patrick Graham. After Gettleman’s solid off-season last year, I’m optimistic that this off-season will make this team even better.
I don’t watch these games and feel like I got kicked in the nuts when they lose. Sure, I get upset when there’s a bad play. Sure, I feel bad about a loss. But I’m also understanding that it’s not going to happen overnight. I see progress with this team. I’m looking forward to a better 2021 season. Why is that so bad? I’m rooting for my team to win. Complaining over and over again is annoying to other people and I just don’t want to listen to myself doing it. I’d rather focus on the positives. Life is too short to be miserable.
You do you though.
He had a 60% completion % Had 1 TD and 1 INT and averaged 160 yards passing in those two games.
That's really reaching to try and either uplift McCoy, or more appropriately, try to downgrade Jones.
Producer - your highly intelligent new friend is calling for you here with this compelling show-stopping nugget...
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In comment 15156569 Carl in CT said:
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Was against the worse defense in the league against the pass at the time. Jones had the hardest schedule over any other QB in the league.
Jones had the hardest schedule, huh? Being in the worst division in football I highly doubt he played the hardest SOS. If that’s what you mean.
Gotta love PFF: Link - ( New Window )
QBs who play poorly will make every defense they face look better.
Gotta love logic.
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In comment 15156569 Carl in CT said:
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Was against the worse defense in the league against the pass at the time. Jones had the hardest schedule over any other QB in the league.
Jones had the hardest schedule, huh? Being in the worst division in football I highly doubt he played the hardest SOS. If that’s what you mean.
Gotta love PFF: Link - ( New Window )
Like I said, no idea what hardest schedule meant. I’d have total defense as a true indication of how good a defense is. So if he played the hardest schedule in that aspect I’ll listen. Don’t think having only a good passing D says much when they might be give up 400 yards a game rushing.
Personally I think i've been pretty reasonable - his supporting cast was trash (especially when Barkley went down) and since he himself isn't a top tier player he isn't good enough to carry an already underwhelming offense. He made some poor throws/decision that lost us 2 games, and then so did Engram. Its unreasonable to get all 4 of those games back but why not 2 of them with even marginal growth and execution?
I agree, you've been reasonable about it, and most fans are.
But there are a few who act like we should just ignore the fact that DJ just had an awful season regardless of excuses, and then those posters keep piling on additional excuses (or resort to insults) when the discussion doesn't go their way.
It's enough to make you hope they'd go golfing or go to a Hornets game.
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one of the games Colt McCoy started. But I see it posted by certain posters here frequently that McCoy outplayed Jones. By what metrics??
He had a 60% completion % Had 1 TD and 1 INT and averaged 160 yards passing in those two games.
That's really reaching to try and either uplift McCoy, or more appropriately, try to downgrade Jones.
Producer - your highly intelligent new friend is calling for you here with this compelling show-stopping nugget...
You really have been reduced to being a pathetic shit-stirrer haven't you??
After denying you were LBH15 for a year do you really think you have legitimacy or integrity to be posting anything? Fucking clown
Losing Barkley meant that he was frequently throwing against five or more DBs and therefore into extremely tight coverage. Our WRs also really didn't generate a lot of separation, meaning he had to hold the ball longer. That made it more likely he would get hit and fumble.
The OL had chemistry issues, and frequently played two or even three rookies. Engram's constant drops and "pop fly" INTs were maddening.
That doesn't mean he didn't make boneheaded throws and decisions. He was clearly responsible for many of those INTS and fumbles. There were also way too many instances of him playing "hero ball." But many QBs do that when their team is struggling. They feel as the leader of the team they have to make something happen. Eli did the same thing. That of course often makes a bad situation worse, but is pretty common, especially with young QBs.
One way or another, Jones is going to get some more weapons. I want to see what he can do with them before deciding we should "move on" and find someone else.
Losing Barkley meant that he was frequently throwing against five or more DBs and therefore into extremely tight coverage. Our WRs also really didn't generate a lot of separation, meaning he had to hold the ball longer. That made it more likely he would get hit and fumble.
The OL had chemistry issues, and frequently played two or even three rookies. Engram's constant drops and "pop fly" INTs were maddening.
That doesn't mean he didn't make boneheaded throws and decisions. He was clearly responsible for many of those INTS and fumbles. There were also way too many instances of him playing "hero ball." But many QBs do that when their team is struggling. They feel as the leader of the team they have to make something happen. Eli did the same thing. That of course often makes a bad situation worse, but is pretty common, especially with young QBs.
One way or another, Jones is going to get some more weapons. I want to see what he can do with them before deciding we should "move on" and find someone else.
Way too much logic in this post. You are going to confuse certain people here.
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I guess that's the holdup then, I don't think anyone actually thinks Jones is or was great. Maybe 1 or 2 posters? Not sure but I haven't read it.
Personally I think i've been pretty reasonable - his supporting cast was trash (especially when Barkley went down) and since he himself isn't a top tier player he isn't good enough to carry an already underwhelming offense. He made some poor throws/decision that lost us 2 games, and then so did Engram. Its unreasonable to get all 4 of those games back but why not 2 of them with even marginal growth and execution?
I agree, you've been reasonable about it, and most fans are.
But there are a few who act like we should just ignore the fact that DJ just had an awful season regardless of excuses, and then those posters keep piling on additional excuses (or resort to insults) when the discussion doesn't go their way.
It's enough to make you hope they'd go golfing or go to a Hornets game.
Nitpick of mine...Nobody “goes golfing”...you “play golf”.
Drives me crazy.
Losing Barkley meant that he was frequently throwing against five or more DBs and therefore into extremely tight coverage. Our WRs also really didn't generate a lot of separation, meaning he had to hold the ball longer. That made it more likely he would get hit and fumble.
The OL had chemistry issues, and frequently played two or even three rookies. Engram's constant drops and "pop fly" INTs were maddening.
That doesn't mean he didn't make boneheaded throws and decisions. He was clearly responsible for many of those INTS and fumbles. There were also way too many instances of him playing "hero ball." But many QBs do that when their team is struggling. They feel as the leader of the team they have to make something happen. Eli did the same thing. That of course often makes a bad situation worse, but is pretty common, especially with young QBs.
One way or another, Jones is going to get some more weapons. I want to see what he can do with them before deciding we should "move on" and find someone else.
Agree with Acid here. Get Engram off the field, Barkley back on and add another outside WR and let's see if Jones can move the team and score more points.
Giants aren't going anywhere meaningful anyway next year so lets see if Jones can at least improve, lock down the job and maybe they make the playoffs for once.
Eli led one of the highest scoring offenses in the league his second year. Jones the second worst.
Insulting to Eli.
OMG- you are literally changing your own point to suit the player. Eli had had less TD passes in 2005 than Jones in 2019. Jones last year was on coordinator #2 , HC #2 and lost the teams best weapon in week 2. Your constant ignoring of apples to apples is amazing.
Besides, you cherry picked year 2 to Jones year 2 (which was in Eli's favor) and yet year 1 was decidely in Jones favor and it wasn't even close!
You ignore actual circumstances (players on the team, consistent coaching etc.) but then call in circumstance (different eras) to validate your point.
Eli: poor rookie year, good second year
Jones: poor rookie year, horrendous second year
It's not a comparison that looks good on Jones.
Losing Barkley meant that he was frequently throwing against five or more DBs and therefore into extremely tight coverage. Our WRs also really didn't generate a lot of separation, meaning he had to hold the ball longer. That made it more likely he would get hit and fumble.
The OL had chemistry issues, and frequently played two or even three rookies. Engram's constant drops and "pop fly" INTs were maddening.
That doesn't mean he didn't make boneheaded throws and decisions. He was clearly responsible for many of those INTS and fumbles. There were also way too many instances of him playing "hero ball." But many QBs do that when their team is struggling. They feel as the leader of the team they have to make something happen. Eli did the same thing. That of course often makes a bad situation worse, but is pretty common, especially with young QBs.
One way or another, Jones is going to get some more weapons. I want to see what he can do with them before deciding we should "move on" and find someone else.
Nice job and fair, imv
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You think that's miserable? I don't know. I think it would be more miserable to lie to myself about the true state of things, and then get upset when that reality plays out on Sundays in the fall. Don't you get tired of kidding yourself and then getting kicked in the balls each season?
I saw a lot of positive this past season with the Giants. I like Joe Judge and think we have the right man for the job. It’s going to take some time to blow it all up and start over, but this year I definitely saw some progress made with some of the young players on the team. We have one playmaker at the skill positions on offense, and he was injured early on. The defense is very promising under Patrick Graham. After Gettleman’s solid off-season last year, I’m optimistic that this off-season will make this team even better.
I don’t watch these games and feel like I got kicked in the nuts when they lose. Sure, I get upset when there’s a bad play. Sure, I feel bad about a loss. But I’m also understanding that it’s not going to happen overnight. I see progress with this team. I’m looking forward to a better 2021 season. Why is that so bad? I’m rooting for my team to win. Complaining over and over again is annoying to other people and I just don’t want to listen to myself doing it. I’d rather focus on the positives. Life is too short to be miserable.
You do you though.
People like terms are just emotionally hedging. It’s sad
Either the Giants keep losing and gets to keep parading around saying he’s right, or the Giants win and he gets to be happy the Giants win.
Eli: poor rookie year, good second year
Jones: poor rookie year, horrendous second year
It's not a comparison that looks good on Jones.
I generally share your skepticism and overall criticism of Jones (no arguments here that his second season was bad), but isn't it a bit disingenuous to call Eli's 2nd year good but Jones rookie year poor? The numbers on their own look pretty similar. Y/A, TD passes, Jones fumbled twice as much but Eli threw five more picks. The offense was much better overall but Tiki also had an MVP caliber season that year to boost the offense. I'd say both seasons were about average. If you want to make the case that standards for passing offenses are much different now than in 2005, I'll buy that. Just an observation though.
Eli was #31 in completion % In 05
Jones was #31 in completion % in 20
Eli was #20 in INT %
Jones was #18 in INT %
Eli was #23 in QB rating
Jones was #21 in QB rating
Giants rushing offense was #6 in NFL in 2005
In 2020, NYG rush offense was #19
Eli had the run game and better receiving talent. Tiki had 2300+ scrimmage yards. Plax, Toomer, & Shockley at his best.
Jones had....nothing. He had a terrible year but he looked good in year 1. We should give him more time. Get some WRs and fix the OL.
Eli was #31 in completion % In 05
Jones was #31 in completion % in 20
Eli was #20 in INT %
Jones was #18 in INT %
Eli was #23 in QB rating
Jones was #21 in QB rating
Giants rushing offense was #6 in NFL in 2005
In 2020, NYG rush offense was #19
Eli had the run game and better receiving talent. Tiki had 2300+ scrimmage yards. Plax, Toomer, & Shockley at his best.
Jones had....nothing. He had a terrible year but he looked good in year 1. We should give him more time. Get some WRs and fix the OL.
That's pretty fair.
Jones was average/below-average in 19 and really bad in 20 (with the caveats noted).
Shockey and Barber were easy completions, Jones had nothing easy.