First of all, if you aren't listening to the Talkin' Giants podcast with Bobby Skinner and Justin Penik, you have to be. They really do a great job.
They had Jordan Raanan on the show earlier this week, and he had some really interesting insight on the team. I know some don't love Raanan, but I really like his input and opinions. I think he has a good pulse of the team, and he creates a ton of really interesting content. Probably my favorite writer that covers the team.
The first half of the interview had some really interesting information, whereas the second half kind of focused on Raanan's experiences with the team and how to get into the broadcasting/media industry.
Here are some of the highlights regarding the team:
-Raanan knows for a fact there was tension at times between Garrett and Judge due to the ineffectiveness of the offense. Judge holds both his players and coaches to a very high standard. Garrett is no different. The offense just did not perform, and the Barkley injury and the inconsistency of Jones aren't excuses.
-Judge wanted to make some changes to the offense this offseason. The Freddie Kitchens title change essentially puts him as a second offensive coordinator and he will certainly be part of the game planning process.
-Similarly, Jeremy Pruitt was hired as a senior defensive assistant, but he will probably serve as a second defensive coordinator.
-These hires/promotions aren't knocks to Garrett or Graham, but Judge wants a truly collaborative approach.
-Kitchens and Schulpinski will also be more involved in game planning and the run game. Even new offensive line coach Rob Sale will have input.
-The offense has to be more successful this year, and if they aren't there will be changes. From the 19th ranked offense to the 31st ranked offense is clearly not ideal.
-Pruitt will have a bigger role, but his focus will likely be OLB. Judge thinks very highly of Jeremy Pruitt. He will also likely work with DB's due to his experience with that position group. He will have a big role in game planning.
-The coaching staff as a whole is impressive. Tyke Tolbert, Jerry Schulpinski, Jerome Henderson, Sale, and Pruitt, are all kind of overqualified for their positions, but took jobs here because they have larger roles besides just coaching position groups. They are involved on a bigger scale...probably including game planning. The coaching duties will be collaborative. This was mentioned several times.
-With all this in mind, Garrett still has a big role, but others will be more involved this season. Kitchens, in his one game as offensive coordinator, was much more aggressive, and we will likely see that more often this season.
-Judge gives input on offense, but Garrett is in the role of the offensive expert. Judge is involved, but Judge is the head coach and Garrett is the offensive coordinator for a reason.
-The situation with Judge coaching the offensive line last season was a little over embellished. Again, he gave input, but he wasn't doing everyday coaching with the line and didn't spend all his time with that position group.
-His intent was never to replace Marc Columbo, but had to with everything that occurred. The blocking scheme was just not what Judge wanted.
-DeGuglielmo was going to be brought in regardless to stabilize that position group. They switched technique in the middle of the season when Columbo which clearly hurt continuity, but play gradually improved throughout the season.
-The offense was specifically designed for Barkley, so they moved away from an outside zone approach.
-Dave Gettleman survived because the player acquisition process with Judge worked well last season.
-The coaching staff has way more input on personnel than ever before. Coaches have input, but with Judge and his staff, it is more than just suggestions. Opinions are taken more seriously.
-DeAndre Baker is a good example of the change. He was drafted without any input from any other members of the defensive staff. That scenario would never happen with the current structure.
-The Golden Tate and Nate Solder flashy signings didn't work. So they built the roster for quality and quantity...not to be too top heavy. Jadaveon Clowney wasn't seriously considered because those are the types of high priced risky players they want to avoid moving forward. The Logan Ryan approach is closer to what they want to do: smarter signings with way less risk involved.
-The roster building process in 2020 worked, so they want to try it again. With that in mind, this is likely Gettleman's last chance. He cannot have another losing record. Judge may have bought him time, but 8-8 at minimum will likely be needed for him to stay.
-This offseason will likely be a similar approach to roster building as last year. Don't expect the big, flashy signings. Most free agents get to free agency because they have questions. Quantity and quality over star power.
-The Giants are in very good shape with the salary cap. Too many people think they are strapped, but that is not the case. They have very few players signed long term or for big money. The $8 million number isn't really accurate at all. They can and will move money easily.
-As an example, the Giants top contracts are around $10 million a year. As a comparison, top QB's are making upwards of $40 million a year. They have plenty of space.
-The Giants will be active due to the lower salary cap. This could work to their advantage. Some teams are legitimately strapped with salary cap space and won't be able to afford to sign any players, or retain their own players.
-If the team wants to, they can re-sign both Dalvin Tomlinson and Leonard Williams. The biggest factor is if the deals make sense for the team now and long term.
-Williams has bargaining power. They paid him $16 million off of 1/2 a sack season. Now with over 11 1/2 sacks, what is he worth? His pressures were similar, so they will have to see how negotiations go.
There were a lot of other interesting nuggets from Raanan's time covering the team. It is definitely worth a listen!
I had a couple takes from this and some of Vin's synopsis covers it but I very much feel like there are 2 specific things being set up to take place:
- Garrett moving on after the season, signaled by the Kitchens promotion and other staff members gaining input.
- A structure coming into play in which if Gettlemen were to not be retained, we more than likely would name Abrams GM, he would run scouting and handle contracts but the coaching staff would essentially be picking the players. The comments on the coaching staff having a lot of input into player selection led me to believe this.
Speculation on my part, call me an idiot if you want, but I believe the most obvious explanation is usually the right one.
To your points:
I think that what Judge is doing is insulting himself for when both Garrett and Graham move on. He will have people in place to step up immediately and he will know who that person is by how they do in this collaborative approach.
DG leaving:
I think whomever the new GM would be would have to be amenable to the current set up - a larger coaching staff input vs one voice through the GM. That would also lead to a GM that is better scout than traditional GM with "total" authority.
I don't mind Garrett as the OC - have even gone to bat for him around here - but if he's really not Judge's hire (which I don't believe he is for one second; it was Mara's hire) and there is tension between the two, then Garrett needs to be let go so Judge can hire his guy. Immediately. Because this is not going to end well.
Just move to Kitchens now and see if he can get anything out of Jones. Because that's where most of the issue is on offense right now...
I don't mind Garrett as the OC - have even gone to bat for him around here - but if he's really not Judge's hire (which I don't believe he is for one second; it was Mara's hire) and there is tension between the two, then Garrett needs to be let go so Judge can hire his guy. Immediately. Because this is not going to end well.
Just move to Kitchens now and see if he can get anything out of Jones. Because that's where most of the issue is on offense right now...
I get the feeling from what Raanan said that the tension is because the offense did not perform as expected by Judge(and us). More likely that Judge's personality and drive causes him to be hyper-critical even though he knows that the personnel situation was bad. Raanan basically said, yes there was "tension" but it was not a big deal. Maybe more exasperation (my paraphrase).
I still don't get the Mara's OC POV with Garrett. Not dismissing it out of hand, but Garrett ran a fine offense in Dallas and he was the most obvious person available at the time. But seeing as how Judge was so deeply involved in the draft and personnel decisions(what is usually the GMS domain), it is hard to believe he took Garrett at Mara's insistence. I think if Judge wanted Garrett out, he would be out.
The red zone play calling was the worst thing about Garrett IMO. The rest of it was fine.
Section - Since the Giants went so "out of the box" in hiring Judge, and having screwed up so many coaching choices before him, I believe Garrett was brought in as insurance in case Judge didn't work out, so they could move on quickly. Garrett has connection with the Giants, so they probably felt comfortable w/ the safety blanket. He also has had some great run-first offenses and with Saquon it likely seemed like a match made in heaven.
With Judge as the man, it will be interesting to see how the dynamic shifts and how long Garrett stays. I'm still hoping we can see at least a mediocre offense in 2021-22.
The comments on Dave Gettleman continue to leak out what a chucklehead this guy has been and that the franchise really needed somebody with a completely different mindset and process. The remark about Deandre Baker and not gaining more input is just ridiculous and not because of his transgressions in Miami last summer.
But mostly that, as several of the more astute posters on BBI have noted, Joe Judge's influence into the deals made (and not made) this past offseason, and improving the roster building process most definitely bought Gettleman another lifeline.
Hopefully Judge just continues to become more and more involved and DG finds his way to a beach somewhere very soon, and we as fans get the best of both of these career paths...
I'm sorry, but this is a ridiculous comment. I would have had little issue with DG taking Baker if Baker had fallen to him in rd 2, but that is not what happened. DG threw away 2 draft picks to move up, and for a bad team that is inexcusable. You wait, and if another team takes him, move on to the next guy on your board. Sean Murphy-Bunting would look really good in Giant blue.
chick - For me, the issues on offense include a deeper doubt about the OL than being pleased its better than its been.
The OL has been so so bad I'm afraid we fall in love with flashes of NFL play.
To me, we don't have the guard play to assert a running game when necessary (against a good front 7) and we don't have a consistent pocket to step into that matches the wr,te routes being run.
To me, Hernandez is too limited, Zeitler not close to advertised and Lemieux a 5th round development project with all the limits and risks of a 5th round development pick.
For me the Covid line of reasoning is a sidebar sidecar to the core issue: I'm starting to think these guys need to be upgraded more and faster than our fan base thinks.
Peart may develop...he may not. I don't see actual RT dominant player, I see back up swing tackle.
That's just me...its where my eyes took me this past season.
I still don't get the Mara's OC POV with Garrett. Not dismissing it out of hand, but Garrett ran a fine offense in Dallas and he was the most obvious person available at the time. But seeing as how Judge was so deeply involved in the draft and personnel decisions(what is usually the GMS domain), it is hard to believe he took Garrett at Mara's insistence. I think if Judge wanted Garrett out, he would be out.
I've said it many, many times - Garrett can put together an offense. I don't buy what some around here are selling when they said Garrett's offense is outdated, not good for Jones, etc. Well, it was good enough for Romo, an undrafted QB, and Prescott, a 4th round pick. So I would expect a QB molded by Cutcliffe and picked 6th, can adapt.
I could pretty easily see Mara telling Judge that he (Mara) really like Garrett, that's he's available, and he'd be a good support system for Judge because Garret has been a HC and knows the NFCE. So there is a way to connect the dots. Since Judge has never been the head coach of a high school team or his kid's flag football team, what was Judge going to say? No? I'd rather take the position at Miss State if I want someone else?
I think the bad guy with the Giants is John Mara although I’m guessing that Judge was his choice and Gettleman bought into it to survive. I don’t think there’s a chance in hell that Gettleman, already on thin ice, would have gone with a rookie coach. Nobody, especially an old geezer, who selected a coach like a Shurmur 2 years ago switches directions that completely and take someone who never had a job higher than special teams coach. Also, I think Gettleman got the GM because he told Mara what he wanted to hear which is that Eli still had it and the team wa a playoff team with fine tuning. Mara is too active here.
In terms of Gettleman and Judge and Garrett, I could see Mara giving Judge the authority over the draft meaning Gettleman will draft who Judge wanted. But, in terms of coaches, Mara would not give Judge total authority over all the assistants. I don’t believe fair a second that Judge would have hired Garrett on his own and obviously Colombo was not Judge’s choice either. Mara has to back the f away.
I could pretty easily see Mara telling Judge that he (Mara) really like Garrett, that's he's available, and he'd be a good support system for Judge because Garret has been a HC and knows the NFCE. So there is a way to connect the dots. Since Judge has never been the head coach of a high school team or his kid's flag football team, what was Judge going to say? No? I'd rather take the position at Miss State if I want someone else?
Agree the dots are close to that type of connection.
It was widely reported that the Giant brass was less than enthused with Shurmur's assistant coaches. And while Mara clearly saw a lot of positives in his interview(s) with Judge he also wanted some experience on the overall coaching staff to support a young Judge. The (ahem) recommendation to give Garrett a hard look was given.
I don't like reading that.
chick - For me, the issues on offense include a deeper doubt about the OL than being pleased its better than its been.
The OL has been so so bad I'm afraid we fall in love with flashes of NFL play.
To me, we don't have the guard play to assert a running game when necessary (against a good front 7) and we don't have a consistent pocket to step into that matches the wr,te routes being run.
To me, Hernandez is too limited, Zeitler not close to advertised and Lemieux a 5th round development project with all the limits and risks of a 5th round development pick.
For me the Covid line of reasoning is a sidebar sidecar to the core issue: I'm starting to think these guys need to be upgraded more and faster than our fan base thinks.
Peart may develop...he may not. I don't see actual RT dominant player, I see back up swing tackle.
That's just me...its where my eyes took me this past season.
Well, I am probably much more aligned to these views about the OL although think stabilizing Right Tackle would do a world of good. Wished we had seen more snaps for Peart as a rookie, but it would not bother me by bringing in another Offensive Tackle in this draft.
Nevertheless, why the wholly different views shared here versus under your Grizz post?
I don't mind Garrett as the OC - have even gone to bat for him around here - but if he's really not Judge's hire (which I don't believe he is for one second; it was Mara's hire) and there is tension between the two, then Garrett needs to be let go so Judge can hire his guy. Immediately. Because this is not going to end well.
Just move to Kitchens now and see if he can get anything out of Jones. Because that's where most of the issue is on offense right now...
My initial reaction to much of this is that there seems to be a lot of cooks in the kitchen right now. Normally, that doesn't work out well.
I have always felt this coaching staff has more input than previous staffs with respect to personnel decisions. Especially Judge and Graham.
Since the beginning of the offseason I have always felt they somehow get it done and re-sign LW and DT. DT is highly regarded by the Giant organization.
Go Giants!!!
Beat me to the punch.
When he has great talent he puts out good units. A lot of coaches fill that role. See Steve Spagnuolo.
Knowing how to maximize results with less than ideal roster is why Graham is a really good coordinator for this team.
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attenuated transcript of the Raanan interview on Talkin Giants, you left out one of its most fascinating observations by Jordan, about how Saquon Barkley is much more similar to OBJ than most people realize... About how Saquon is much more into the Glitz and Glam of LA than most acknowledge...
I don't like reading that.
Maybe as a personality off the field, however nothing on the field would suggest that he's similar to OBJ. He doesn't throw temper tantrums, he doesn't run off the field before the half because he didn't get the ball, he's not controversial in the media. You can love the fame as much as anyone and still be a great teammate (look at Tom Brady).
If he fails so much that he is replaced before the season ends, then its possible the whole house of cards with Daniel Jones and Dave Gettleman fall as well.
How would any of us know? We haven't met him. Just because he's not outwardly showy doesn't mean much.
He also hasn't been on the field enough to establish himself with that same amount of fame. Beckham became world famous pretty early on.
If he fails so much that he is replaced before the season ends, then its possible the whole house of cards with Daniel Jones and Dave Gettleman fall as well.
I think the same is true of Graham - if the Giants are successful both Garrett and Graham will be prime candidates for HC jobs. If they leave, the team doesn't miss a beat with these two guys in the wings..in theory - it's a good idea.
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fail to get the Offense moving enough and be fired, or he will succeed and get another Head Coaching gig.
If he fails so much that he is replaced before the season ends, then its possible the whole house of cards with Daniel Jones and Dave Gettleman fall as well.
I think the same is true of Graham - if the Giants are successful both Garrett and Graham will be prime candidates for HC jobs. If they leave, the team doesn't miss a beat with these two guys in the wings..in theory - it's a good idea.
I am not so sure about Graham. Unless he is just looking for the perfect job opportunity his personality strikes me more as someone who prefers being a coordinator and working behind the scenes than being the head guy.
Skinner interviewed him well. I have enjoyed their Youtube videos from time to time; he and Justin bring different things and I like the combination.
The OPs summary was outstanding. I listened to the entire thing before this was posted, and still learned from the post. Thanks Vin
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is fascinating.
I don't mind Garrett as the OC - have even gone to bat for him around here - but if he's really not Judge's hire (which I don't believe he is for one second; it was Mara's hire) and there is tension between the two, then Garrett needs to be let go so Judge can hire his guy. Immediately. Because this is not going to end well.
Just move to Kitchens now and see if he can get anything out of Jones. Because that's where most of the issue is on offense right now...
My initial reaction to much of this is that there seems to be a lot of cooks in the kitchen right now. Normally, that doesn't work out well.
I hear you. It read like a very complicated org chart.
You may be right, but I'm guessing Jordan Raanan has interacted more with SB than you have. I'm not sure he means SB has the same temperament as Odell, but that he has the same visions of stardom Odell had (has). That's not necessarily a bad thing, he doesn't become a star without putting up really good numbers. Just as long as it doesn't morph into selfishness, like Odell's sometimes did.
It certainly seems that anything you don't like to hear is "BS".
Hope this is not the case because if we have an opportunity for A-rob especially I think we need to take it. He is one of the most Qb friendly WRs in the entire NFL and could catapault DJs career to the next level like Hopkins/Diggs did for two other young QBs.
But outside of that,they are similar
Theory? Just an old school mindset.
It wasn't uncommon for GMs and scouting to pick the players and coaches to just work with what they were handed. Bill Parcells left the Giants in part because of this, right? He wanted to "pick the groceries".
Yeah, that needs to be HIGHLIGHTED!!. Who does that?. especially when you dumped a bunch of defensive players you already had on the team???
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is fascinating.
I don't mind Garrett as the OC - have even gone to bat for him around here - but if he's really not Judge's hire (which I don't believe he is for one second; it was Mara's hire) and there is tension between the two, then Garrett needs to be let go so Judge can hire his guy. Immediately. Because this is not going to end well.
Just move to Kitchens now and see if he can get anything out of Jones. Because that's where most of the issue is on offense right now...
I get the feeling from what Raanan said that the tension is because the offense did not perform as expected by Judge(and us). More likely that Judge's personality and drive causes him to be hyper-critical even though he knows that the personnel situation was bad. Raanan basically said, yes there was "tension" but it was not a big deal. Maybe more exasperation (my paraphrase).
I still don't get the Mara's OC POV with Garrett. Not dismissing it out of hand, but Garrett ran a fine offense in Dallas and he was the most obvious person available at the time. But seeing as how Judge was so deeply involved in the draft and personnel decisions(what is usually the GMS domain), it is hard to believe he took Garrett at Mara's insistence. I think if Judge wanted Garrett out, he would be out.
I think Mara and most likely Judge too for that matter think JG is the best guy to develop Jones into the franchise QB they drafted him to be.
They know what he did with Romo and Dak so no doubt they’re willing to give him more time with DJ given the COVID 2020 season wasn’t ideal to work as closely as I’m sure he would’ve liked.
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is fascinating.
I don't mind Garrett as the OC - have even gone to bat for him around here - but if he's really not Judge's hire (which I don't believe he is for one second; it was Mara's hire) and there is tension between the two, then Garrett needs to be let go so Judge can hire his guy. Immediately. Because this is not going to end well.
Just move to Kitchens now and see if he can get anything out of Jones. Because that's where most of the issue is on offense right now...
My initial reaction to much of this is that there seems to be a lot of cooks in the kitchen right now. Normally, that doesn't work out well.
Normally I would agree. But I like this for different reasons O vs D.
I don't think Graham's influence will be not diminished. I think on the D side they are preparing someone as the long time replacement for Graham.
On O I think they have created a situation where if Garrett doesn't get it done quickly he will be replaced early on.
I think this is straight out of the BB philosophy in New England. Bill has been smart enough to realize that when you win in this league, people look to take from your coordinators/staff every year and you need to be able to fill in.
We’ve seen all too many times (Bill Sheridan) how elevating the wrong guys can derail otherwise very good teams. I think Judge wants to be prepared when his coordinators eventually leave him. If NYG is successful they inevitably will.
Fingers crossed on this. Garrett's continued presence makes me wonder, though.
It does seem that Judge would would prefer to give Kitchens the OC now and go to war. So, I don’t know what it means for Garrett.
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Baker pick is brought up multiple times a day when it was essentially a shot DG took in the 2nd rnd. Every draft expert will tell you after about 15 picks you are really drafting 2nd guys unless that draft is just loaded and that year it wasnt. Missing on 2nd rounder hurts but it happens to every team all the time. The chiefs have had some seriously bad misses in the last 10 yrs. But since they win no one brings those up. What kills a team is what Reese did. Missing on first rounders. Over and over. After about 5 yrs of that your team is dead in the water. Which is what DG took over. It never was going to be a fast rebuild.
I'm sorry, but this is a ridiculous comment. I would have had little issue with DG taking Baker if Baker had fallen to him in rd 2, but that is not what happened. DG threw away 2 draft picks to move up, and for a bad team that is inexcusable. You wait, and if another team takes him, move on to the next guy on your board. Sean Murphy-Bunting would look really good in Giant blue.
^This.
Great work as usual Vin.
Hal Hunter was garbage; Columbo wasn't a good it; Gug was a hired gun - that's all; now the new guy.
If you were working as a Giants O-lineman, wouldn't you wish the turnstile door in the coaches' office stop spinning ?