First of all, if you aren't listening to the Talkin' Giants podcast with Bobby Skinner and Justin Penik, you have to be. They really do a great job.
They had Jordan Raanan on the show earlier this week, and he had some really interesting insight on the team. I know some don't love Raanan, but I really like his input and opinions. I think he has a good pulse of the team, and he creates a ton of really interesting content. Probably my favorite writer that covers the team.
The first half of the interview had some really interesting information, whereas the second half kind of focused on Raanan's experiences with the team and how to get into the broadcasting/media industry.
Here are some of the highlights regarding the team:
-Raanan knows for a fact there was tension at times between Garrett and Judge due to the ineffectiveness of the offense. Judge holds both his players and coaches to a very high standard. Garrett is no different. The offense just did not perform, and the Barkley injury and the inconsistency of Jones aren't excuses.
-Judge wanted to make some changes to the offense this offseason. The Freddie Kitchens title change essentially puts him as a second offensive coordinator and he will certainly be part of the game planning process.
-Similarly, Jeremy Pruitt was hired as a senior defensive assistant, but he will probably serve as a second defensive coordinator.
-These hires/promotions aren't knocks to Garrett or Graham, but Judge wants a truly collaborative approach.
-Kitchens and Schulpinski will also be more involved in game planning and the run game. Even new offensive line coach Rob Sale will have input.
-The offense has to be more successful this year, and if they aren't there will be changes. From the 19th ranked offense to the 31st ranked offense is clearly not ideal.
-Pruitt will have a bigger role, but his focus will likely be OLB. Judge thinks very highly of Jeremy Pruitt. He will also likely work with DB's due to his experience with that position group. He will have a big role in game planning.
-The coaching staff as a whole is impressive. Tyke Tolbert, Jerry Schulpinski, Jerome Henderson, Sale, and Pruitt, are all kind of overqualified for their positions, but took jobs here because they have larger roles besides just coaching position groups. They are involved on a bigger scale...probably including game planning. The coaching duties will be collaborative. This was mentioned several times.
-With all this in mind, Garrett still has a big role, but others will be more involved this season. Kitchens, in his one game as offensive coordinator, was much more aggressive, and we will likely see that more often this season.
-Judge gives input on offense, but Garrett is in the role of the offensive expert. Judge is involved, but Judge is the head coach and Garrett is the offensive coordinator for a reason.
-The situation with Judge coaching the offensive line last season was a little over embellished. Again, he gave input, but he wasn't doing everyday coaching with the line and didn't spend all his time with that position group.
-His intent was never to replace Marc Columbo, but had to with everything that occurred. The blocking scheme was just not what Judge wanted.
-DeGuglielmo was going to be brought in regardless to stabilize that position group. They switched technique in the middle of the season when Columbo which clearly hurt continuity, but play gradually improved throughout the season.
-The offense was specifically designed for Barkley, so they moved away from an outside zone approach.
-Dave Gettleman survived because the player acquisition process with Judge worked well last season.
-The coaching staff has way more input on personnel than ever before. Coaches have input, but with Judge and his staff, it is more than just suggestions. Opinions are taken more seriously.
-DeAndre Baker is a good example of the change. He was drafted without any input from any other members of the defensive staff. That scenario would never happen with the current structure.
-The Golden Tate and Nate Solder flashy signings didn't work. So they built the roster for quality and quantity...not to be too top heavy. Jadaveon Clowney wasn't seriously considered because those are the types of high priced risky players they want to avoid moving forward. The Logan Ryan approach is closer to what they want to do: smarter signings with way less risk involved.
-The roster building process in 2020 worked, so they want to try it again. With that in mind, this is likely Gettleman's last chance. He cannot have another losing record. Judge may have bought him time, but 8-8 at minimum will likely be needed for him to stay.
-This offseason will likely be a similar approach to roster building as last year. Don't expect the big, flashy signings. Most free agents get to free agency because they have questions. Quantity and quality over star power.
-The Giants are in very good shape with the salary cap. Too many people think they are strapped, but that is not the case. They have very few players signed long term or for big money. The $8 million number isn't really accurate at all. They can and will move money easily.
-As an example, the Giants top contracts are around $10 million a year. As a comparison, top QB's are making upwards of $40 million a year. They have plenty of space.
-The Giants will be active due to the lower salary cap. This could work to their advantage. Some teams are legitimately strapped with salary cap space and won't be able to afford to sign any players, or retain their own players.
-If the team wants to, they can re-sign both Dalvin Tomlinson and Leonard Williams. The biggest factor is if the deals make sense for the team now and long term.
-Williams has bargaining power. They paid him $16 million off of 1/2 a sack season. Now with over 11 1/2 sacks, what is he worth? His pressures were similar, so they will have to see how negotiations go.
There were a lot of other interesting nuggets from Raanan's time covering the team. It is definitely worth a listen!
Sorry, not sure how to link to my podcast app.
In Apple podcasts, just search for Talkin’ Giants.
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Sorry, not sure how to link to my podcast app.
In Apple podcasts, just search for Talkin’ Giants.
Found it buddy listening now.
TG Podcast - ( New Window )
i think this is almost always the case. he mentioned baker not being a coaches choice but at the same time theres no way you can convince me DG wanted all those former Cardinal players when Bettcher was here(pierre, golden, bethea, the rover safety guy, kareem martin and god knows who else).
i think the shurmur staff was just a bunch of lame ducks. Shurmurs ok at getting an offense together, not great, not a guy to get his teams ready to play. bettcher probably ate off Todd Bowles' success in AZ, Mike Shula i mean c'mon the guy probably came as a favor to DG lol
to say Garrett might be the weakest link on this staff is saying a lot about the rest of the staff.
I can't imagine Bettcher's input on draft picks would result in anything better.
I didn’t realize “a shot in the second round” also included giving up 2 additional draft picks. I am not calling for DGs head or a DG hater, but at what point do you start to evaluate him? I mean the guy came in proclaiming he would fix the OL, 4 seasons later, would you say it’s where it should be?
Judge is just more forceful...as there was a ton of coaches choices....in the recent past.
ie, no WR high, no picks mostly on potential/talent.
I guess I'm what's labeled as a "Gettleman apologist". It's not four season's later, it's three. Huge difference and I think your criticism might be fairer AFTER this year. I also think even that is qualified because they tried to win with Elli - a decision i supported but also can see was wrong with the power of hindsight.
So it's three years and counting and he said he'd build both lines. I think that's what we've seen. The defensive front is among the best in football and even has considerable depth with Hill and Johnson. And I like the offensive line going into next year. I'll go further than that, if Peart turns into a monster (something I hold is as likely as not) it could be a superb line. If Peart is a tease, than I still feel that the line will be competent, if not great. Gates, Andrew, Zeigler all top notch; Hernandez a competent if limited guard, and whoever at right tackle all with a year of continuity...projects as a decent line.
I have always felt this coaching staff has more input than previous staffs with respect to personnel decisions. Especially Judge and Graham.
Since the beginning of the offseason I have always felt they somehow get it done and re-sign LW and DT. DT is highly regarded by the Giant organization.
Go Giants!!!
Don't expect the big, flashy signings.
But, they won't and there will a bunch of whining....
ie, no WR high, no picks mostly on potential/talent.
I would sign up for most of what the Pats have done over the years except their drafting--it has been not very good. They have been pretty good at getting smart role players, but their WR drafting has been awful.
The one thing I do like about the Pats drafting is that they look to acquire a lot of picks with the idea I think of the more picks you have, you increase the percentages of having hits.
I like what I saw from the Judge influenced draft.
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Don't expect the big, flashy signings.
But, they won't and there will a bunch of whining....
If the problems that have plagued this team for years continue to exist, then sure.
They still need a pass rush
They still need offensive playmakers
They still need cornerbacks.
All needs that have been needs for more than 1 season.
The big difference between judge and previous coaches like shurmur and mcadont is that judge knows the type of players he is looking for and what he wants to do offensively and defensively.
Gettlemans strength is working with coaches and getting them players that they need. He did it with Ron rivera in Carolina and we are seeing that with judge.
It is refreshing to have a coach that knows what he wants to do, is detail oriented and holds everyone accountable. Remember how our secondary was getting burned early in the season on rub routes, the defense changed from a man defense to a zone defense. He rotated offensive linemen. I don't need to go into marc Columbo. Judge is never complacent and won't accept mediocrity.
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I didn’t realize “a shot in the second round” also included giving up 2 additional draft picks. I am not calling for DGs head or a DG hater, but at what point do you start to evaluate him? I mean the guy came in proclaiming he would fix the OL, 4 seasons later, would you say it’s where it should be?
I guess I'm what's labeled as a "Gettleman apologist". It's not four season's later, it's three. Huge difference and I think your criticism might be fairer AFTER this year. I also think even that is qualified because they tried to win with Elli - a decision i supported but also can see was wrong with the power of hindsight.
So it's three years and counting and he said he'd build both lines. I think that's what we've seen. The defensive front is among the best in football and even has considerable depth with Hill and Johnson. And I like the offensive line going into next year. I'll go further than that, if Peart turns into a monster (something I hold is as likely as not) it could be a superb line. If Peart is a tease, than I still feel that the line will be competent, if not great. Gates, Andrew, Zeigler all top notch; Hernandez a competent if limited guard, and whoever at right tackle all with a year of continuity...projects as a decent line.
The defensive line is among the best...(The Oline) could be superb...if not great...Gates, Andrew (Thomas), Zeitler all top notch.
Now I will clearly admit we witnessed improvement on both the offensive and defensive lines last season, but I didn't see anything close to what is being described above, other than in a few patches of games in the middle to late part of the season. Much development still needs to occur with pass blocking, consistency in games with run defense and pressure from the edges.
Bill - is this what Thoreau meant when he said “The question is not what you look at, but what you see.”?
I think we will eventually get there. I also understand the apprehension to do this out of the gates with a first time HC despite wanting this from the get go, personally.
Another quality thread from Vin_Cuccs.
Basically Vin_Cuccs = quality.
Interesting, and I though I saw this myself..Giants going after more "second level" guys vs one 1st level guy. Raanan noted that they were improving the bottom of the roster. In case of injury the downside was not as down. It would seem to indicate that going after a #1 WR in FA is not what they will be doing.
I had a couple takes from this and some of Vin's synopsis covers it but I very much feel like there are 2 specific things being set up to take place:
- Garrett moving on after the season, signaled by the Kitchens promotion and other staff members gaining input.
- A structure coming into play in which if Gettlemen were to not be retained, we more than likely would name Abrams GM, he would run scouting and handle contracts but the coaching staff would essentially be picking the players. The comments on the coaching staff having a lot of input into player selection led me to believe this.
Speculation on my part, call me an idiot if you want, but I believe the most obvious explanation is usually the right one.
I had a couple takes from this and some of Vin's synopsis covers it but I very much feel like there are 2 specific things being set up to take place:
- Garrett moving on after the season, signaled by the Kitchens promotion and other staff members gaining input.
- A structure coming into play in which if Gettlemen were to not be retained, we more than likely would name Abrams GM, he would run scouting and handle contracts but the coaching staff would essentially be picking the players. The comments on the coaching staff having a lot of input into player selection led me to believe this.
Speculation on my part, call me an idiot if you want, but I believe the most obvious explanation is usually the right one.
To your points:
I think that what Judge is doing is insulting himself for when both Garrett and Graham move on. He will have people in place to step up immediately and he will know who that person is by how they do in this collaborative approach.
DG leaving:
I think whomever the new GM would be would have to be amenable to the current set up - a larger coaching staff input vs one voice through the GM. That would also lead to a GM that is better scout than traditional GM with "total" authority.
I don't mind Garrett as the OC - have even gone to bat for him around here - but if he's really not Judge's hire (which I don't believe he is for one second; it was Mara's hire) and there is tension between the two, then Garrett needs to be let go so Judge can hire his guy. Immediately. Because this is not going to end well.
Just move to Kitchens now and see if he can get anything out of Jones. Because that's where most of the issue is on offense right now...
I don't mind Garrett as the OC - have even gone to bat for him around here - but if he's really not Judge's hire (which I don't believe he is for one second; it was Mara's hire) and there is tension between the two, then Garrett needs to be let go so Judge can hire his guy. Immediately. Because this is not going to end well.
Just move to Kitchens now and see if he can get anything out of Jones. Because that's where most of the issue is on offense right now...
I get the feeling from what Raanan said that the tension is because the offense did not perform as expected by Judge(and us). More likely that Judge's personality and drive causes him to be hyper-critical even though he knows that the personnel situation was bad. Raanan basically said, yes there was "tension" but it was not a big deal. Maybe more exasperation (my paraphrase).
I still don't get the Mara's OC POV with Garrett. Not dismissing it out of hand, but Garrett ran a fine offense in Dallas and he was the most obvious person available at the time. But seeing as how Judge was so deeply involved in the draft and personnel decisions(what is usually the GMS domain), it is hard to believe he took Garrett at Mara's insistence. I think if Judge wanted Garrett out, he would be out.
The red zone play calling was the worst thing about Garrett IMO. The rest of it was fine.
Section - Since the Giants went so "out of the box" in hiring Judge, and having screwed up so many coaching choices before him, I believe Garrett was brought in as insurance in case Judge didn't work out, so they could move on quickly. Garrett has connection with the Giants, so they probably felt comfortable w/ the safety blanket. He also has had some great run-first offenses and with Saquon it likely seemed like a match made in heaven.
With Judge as the man, it will be interesting to see how the dynamic shifts and how long Garrett stays. I'm still hoping we can see at least a mediocre offense in 2021-22.
The comments on Dave Gettleman continue to leak out what a chucklehead this guy has been and that the franchise really needed somebody with a completely different mindset and process. The remark about Deandre Baker and not gaining more input is just ridiculous and not because of his transgressions in Miami last summer.
But mostly that, as several of the more astute posters on BBI have noted, Joe Judge's influence into the deals made (and not made) this past offseason, and improving the roster building process most definitely bought Gettleman another lifeline.
Hopefully Judge just continues to become more and more involved and DG finds his way to a beach somewhere very soon, and we as fans get the best of both of these career paths...