Each team is broken up by category. The Giants are listed in the “Still Evaluating” section, which seems right to me. As much of us have been stating, this is a huge season for the franchise.
The jury is still out on Daniel Jones about whether he is the long-term answer for the Giants. He showed modest growth in Year 2, raising his 65.6 passing grade as a rookie to 74.4 in 2020. The 2019 No. 6 overall pick still displayed poor pocket awareness with more fumbles in a collapsing pocket than any other quarterback in the league while also converting pressure to sacks at a high rate of 21% (eighth-worst).
But from a clean-pocket — the most stable area of quarterback play — Jones was right where he needed to be. He ranked 12th this past season in passing grade in such situations. His deep ball was also on point, as he placed third in the NFL in passing grade on 20-plus-yard throws. This upcoming season is a massive year for the New York Giants franchise, and Jones will dictate the direction the team heads. |
Link - (
New Window )
If he's accurate on deep balls and ranked fairly well in the pocket, well, wouldn't it be reasonable to suggest he'd play better with an upgrade at the skill positions?
No excuses.
If he's accurate on deep balls and ranked fairly well in the pocket, well, wouldn't it be reasonable to suggest he'd play better with an upgrade at the skill positions?
Agreed. For all of the debate on BBI, it will come down to this upcoming season. It can’t be stated how significant this season is for the franchise.
and isn't is also reasonable to suggest that with a more experienced and improved OL, he'll have a safer pocket more often. And won't his pocket awareness most likely improve with experience and even appear to improve if he just had a safer pocket?
I agree with the pocket awareness/recognition. Not sure he ever overcomes this but I am hoping.
What I want to see from him is better decision making / play making ability when things do break down. Elite QBs separate themselves from their peers by making plays off schedule. Jones has done that with his legs, but rarely with his arm. That has to improve.
He also needs to be more consistent in the short throws. The line has its issues, but going into next year we are going to be playing a TE and RB that are horrible blockers. There will still be a lot of plays designed to get the ball out quickly and accurately. That also needs to improve.
The arm talent is there as the deep throw stats show. It is the rest of the needed skills that need to be better.
This certainly isn’t yet an indictment on Jones. Nonetheless, this is a big year for him. If he once again engineers a league worst offense and a yields terrible statistics, the Giants absolutely should move on. Where I struggle to project a top qb is his traits. He struggles greatly to navigate the pocket, has a league average arm, is very robotic moving in the pocket (see point 1), and seems to struggle diagnosing pre and post snap coverages (i.e., doesn’t see the field particularly well). Perhaps these things will be somewhat corrected with a better supporting cast, but to what extent? Are we talking, say the 26th best starting qb in the nfl to 15th, because that certainly doesn’t warrant a top 10 pick and won’t elevate a team to championship status in most year- especially in the modern nfl.
What I hope is the Giants evaluate the position objectiveLT. To give some context, in the last Giants lull they were in the Super Bowl in 91 and then again in 2001(with wasting a supplemental first round pick on a qb). We are beyond that now and still feel very far away.
I agree with the pocket awareness/recognition. Not sure he ever overcomes this but I am hoping.
You remember "A" (meaning one) bad throw on a come back . Yes and Aikman said that was caused by not trusting what he saw, not arm strength. At years end he was tenuous trying not to throw INTs.
Bottom line - drafting well is important. Giants unfortunately have had too many misses. That doesn't help a young quarterback.
Our O line was a WIP last year -- I predict it will be improved next year as it had what were essentially three rookies on it this year and Cam Flemming as a main stay -- god help us
The question is “can Jones be successful with an average Oline?” The top QBs in the league can. Mahomes and Brady have not been playing behind the top lines in the league. Mahomes was hindered in the Super Bowl because his normally average line was crippled by injury. If Jones can’t, they either need to build a top flight Oline for him (something the Giants have struggled to do for the last decade) or look for someone who can overcome their faults. The idea of “let’s get 5 all-pro lineman and two top WRs and a TE and see what he can do” is absurd. It isn’t reality.
Watching Jones stand in a clean pocket and throw to All-Pro wide receivers should not be the evaluation standard. Eli never had that luxury. We need to see Jones make plays with his arm when things break down. In my opinion, he has done that with his legs so far. I want to see more off schedule plays from him this year.
The question is “can Jones be successful with an average Oline?” The top QBs in the league can. Mahomes and Brady have not been playing behind the top lines in the league. Mahomes was hindered in the Super Bowl because his normally average line was crippled by injury. If Jones can’t, they either need to build a top flight Oline for him (something the Giants have struggled to do for the last decade) or look for someone who can overcome their faults. The idea of “let’s get 5 all-pro lineman and two top WRs and a TE and see what he can do” is absurd. It isn’t reality.
Watching Jones stand in a clean pocket and throw to All-Pro wide receivers should not be the evaluation standard. Eli never had that luxury. We need to see Jones make plays with his arm when things break down. In my opinion, he has done that with his legs so far. I want to see more off schedule plays from him this year.
They may not have been ALL PRO, but they were pretty damn good. above average was the floor for that group, and here we are talking about Jones getting a chance with at least "average". Eli absolutely had arguably one of the best lines in all of football until around 2010/11. Tiki Barber put up 3 MVP Caliber seasons behind that line, then Jacobs, Bradshaw, and Ward did it as a unit too. Plaxico Burress/Amani Toomer/Steve Smith/Shockey or Nicks/Cruz/Manningham/Ballard vs. Tate/Slayton/Shep/Engram. Is it even close? Even in the same ballpark?
As to your question about can Jones be good with even an average o-line? I think we owe it to him to at least give him a chance with one before writing him off. And that goes for the next QB too, if needed. What good is he going to do if we still can't field an "average" o-line?
Jones or no Jones we need better skill players on the Giants.
He did have two elite WR's in 2011 and a good 3rd in Manningham which helped him overcome a lackluster line. Unfortunately witchintwo years both had suffered career altering injuries.
Then I imagine there were times when he couldn't get out of his own head and sulked or gave up on routes too early.
If he ever could have really put it all together, he could have been an all time great with Manning, IMO.
The point I am making is that Jones’ fate may not be determined by seeing what he does with a solid Oline. He may need to show he can make plays consistently with his arm when things break down. That is the piece of his game I think is need of the most development. It’s not fair to him, but the team needs to try and win games, not try and set up a fair evaluation for the QB.
The team needs to strive to improve the Offensive line regardless. Until it is solidified, they should continue to make it a priority.
So I just don't see much at all to support that.
But he had less to work with in 2020 and still was able to grade out well in some of the passing categories which shouldn’t be glossed over. And just watch him those games before the injury, different player.
Quote:
It’s not fair to him, but the team needs to try and win games, not try and set up a fair evaluation for the QB.
The team needs to strive to improve the Offensive line regardless. Until it is solidified, they should continue to make it a priority.
I never suggested they were independent or that they should not improve the Oline. What I suggested was that it is fair to assume the Oline is not fixed next year as it has not been for the past decade. Of course they should be trying.
But we also can’t be waiting in Jones in year four with the idea that if the line stinks he is the de facto starter.
So I just don't see much at all to support that.
Yea. i'm with you. I am sort of agnostic about PFF. I read some of their stuff to get a different perspective. I don't care enough to have a strong position yet about their approach. I never use any of their analysis to support a point I am making but I will always keep an open mind. But this Jones take seems odd to me. Maybe they see something through their analysis that other numbers don't support. Also their take on Herbert is odd.
Quote:
the "modest growth" conclusion from '19 to '20. That's pretty generous. The YPA stayed flat and the AY/A decreased. The TD/INT got worse as well. Completion % bumped up a little.
So I just don't see much at all to support that.
Yea. i'm with you. I am sort of agnostic about PFF. I read some of their stuff to get a different perspective. I don't care enough to have a strong position yet about their approach. I never use any of their analysis to support a point I am making but I will always keep an open mind. But this Jones take seems odd to me. Maybe they see something through their analysis that other numbers don't support. Also their take on Herbert is odd.
Funny that you say that about Herbert because I had the same reaction. Of all the summaries by team, that was the one that caught me off guard the most. In fact, I had to read it twice to make sure I was getting the point.
Sort of like...
Yes, Herbert had a historic rookie year but he was better under pressure than with a clean pocket to throw.,.so that is a possible troubling sign going forward. So be concerned about a pullback.
Instead of...
Hey, the kid really showed an ability to make plays under duress. It was high quality performance. And we think he has a chance to get even better with a clean pocket when he gets even more comfortable with the offense...
Quote:
In comment 15157707 bw in dc said:
Quote:
the "modest growth" conclusion from '19 to '20. That's pretty generous. The YPA stayed flat and the AY/A decreased. The TD/INT got worse as well. Completion % bumped up a little.
So I just don't see much at all to support that.
Yea. i'm with you. I am sort of agnostic about PFF. I read some of their stuff to get a different perspective. I don't care enough to have a strong position yet about their approach. I never use any of their analysis to support a point I am making but I will always keep an open mind. But this Jones take seems odd to me. Maybe they see something through their analysis that other numbers don't support. Also their take on Herbert is odd.
Funny that you say that about Herbert because I had the same reaction. Of all the summaries by team, that was the one that caught me off guard the most. In fact, I had to read it twice to make sure I was getting the point.
Sort of like...
Yes, Herbert had a historic rookie year but he was better under pressure than with a clean pocket to throw.,.so that is a possible troubling sign going forward. So be concerned about a pullback.
Instead of...
Hey, the kid really showed an ability to make plays under duress. It was high quality performance. And we think he has a chance to get even better with a clean pocket when he gets even more comfortable with the offense...
I give them credit for sticking to their methodology in the face of general adulation that Herbert has received. Though I don't think I would agree with them. I think it's a very Jamesian take. The clean pocket numbers, it seems they have determined, are the better stable indicator of a QBs development since those numbers are more stable than out of structure plays. Broken pocket plays have wilder variance for the population of QBs and therefore shift more year to year. Of course it is an assertion based on their data collection. They make no exception for traits or skills. And in Herbert's case, as I heard Cosell say in October, the kid is just different and he realized it when he was on the field with him. He is big and when the ball comes out it is just different than almost every other QB. They don't take stuff like that into consideration. His power, size, athleticism and arm strength.
That's how I interpret what PFFs comment. In clean pocket he was pretty good. In collapsing pocket he was terrible. But they stipulate that the clean pocket number is subject to less variance and therefore might be a better indicator of his progress.