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NGT: Greg Cosell reviews top-6 QBs on Ross Tucker podcast

Producer : 2/19/2021 1:01 pm
Cosell always has an interesting take on QBs and the link below is his assessment of the top-6 QBs coming out. Cosell comes on around 8:50 into podcast.

Of note:

Trevor Lawrence - obviously he has elite traits. Cosell feels Lawrence has improved year to year. Big frame, great athlete, but may not be as advanced as Burrow yet in the area of intangibles.

Zach Wilson - Feels Wilson is the clear second. Does not think he has the power arm at the Rodgers/Mahomes level but he excels in and out of structure. An advanced passer with the ability to make things happen in second reaction circumstances.

J Fields - Overall a lot of good traits but Cosell has concerns. Seems to require structured schemes to excel at this stage.

Trey Lance - Cosell likes Lance better than Fields at this stage. Has exciting traits - a power arm and elite running. He thinks teams will be excited about his potential.

Mac Jones - Not a good athlete and has no secondary traits of note. It will be interesting to see where he lands.

In the Mac Jones section he made an important point that debunks what many here insist on vis a vis Jones.

Cosell insists that he learned from Bill Walsh to isolate QB traits regardless of context. It doesn't matter if a QB has a good or poor supporting cast, good analysts and observers look for the traits, athleticism, mechanics, and mind set in isolation.

Kyle Trask he views as a backup.

I think Lance will not make it to 11 but if the Giants don't kick the tires on this kid I think they are making a huge mistake.
GREG COSELL: TOP 6 COLLEGE QUARTERBACKS - ( New Window )
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RE: RE: Fields is really getting downplayed...  
bw in dc : 2/19/2021 3:59 pm : link
In comment 15157349 Producer said:
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In comment 15157338 bw in dc said:


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in this draft. I mean, he has played some big time football in some big games. He totally outplayed Lawrence in the semis this year while being hurt almost the entire second half after the cheap-shot by Skalski.

I like Lance, but beating James Madison in the FCS finals isn't as big as beating Clemson. And the overall competition isn't on par - obviously - with the Big Ten. Do we think Matt Entz is running a complicated system at NDSU where Lance has to make all of these complicated reads? Maybe - I guess. But the few games I saw NDSU play it was Lance running keepers, running RPOs, and throwing to some very open receivers...






Cosell makes the case that Lance has better traits than Fields. He can't help who he plays with or against, but he has better arm talent than Fields and is probably better at the second reaction stuff than Fields. But he is raw, no doubt. Cosell doesn't seem put off by that though.


I get it. I do like the Lance's long-ball ability. I just don't see the overall arm compared to Fields.

I really respect Cosell, however, so his opinion matters to me.

Good link below of Lance's TD throws in 2019, btw.

Lance TD throws in 2019 - ( New Window )
Well, wouldn't also want to suggest that QBs like the  
chick310 : 2/19/2021 4:00 pm : link
Blake Bortles of the world sniff playoff runs on a consistent basis either.

Putting aside the kick the tires statement, the Giants can ill-afford to be complacent at any position on their roster right now, and QB is no exception.

I assume they will do their homework on most if not all these candidates, no matter what they have publicly expressed about Jones.

That's..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/19/2021 4:00 pm : link
the exact reason I said not to "go overboard" with that concept.

Everyone wants an elite QB. If it were so easy to just grab one, teams would mortgage a future every season to go after the top prospects

Build a good, strong team and let the chips fall. If QB is the hindering factor - get a new one.
RE: That's..  
bw in dc : 2/19/2021 4:06 pm : link
In comment 15157381 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:

Everyone wants an elite QB. If it were so easy to just grab one, teams would mortgage a future every season to go after the top prospects


Well, we are very likely about to test that with D.Watson...
RE: That's..  
Mike in NY : 2/19/2021 4:11 pm : link
In comment 15157381 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
the exact reason I said not to "go overboard" with that concept.

Everyone wants an elite QB. If it were so easy to just grab one, teams would mortgage a future every season to go after the top prospects

Build a good, strong team and let the chips fall. If QB is the hindering factor - get a new one.


If you are in a position to draft an elite QB you take one if you don't have one. The Giants are too far away from being in that position as Trevor Lawrence is going #1 and Zach Wilson (who I think has as much upside as any QB in this draft but might need a little more seasoning time than someone like Lawrence) is going Top 4. I don't see "elite" QB from any of the others. Lance is the only other one with the raw tools to become one, but I see a QB who needs a minimum of two years on the bench and also the lowest floor of the top QB's (I don't think Jones is among the top QB's). He is the one QB in this draft who I can see a team pulling a Dwayne Haskins on and cutting bait in under 2 years.
I'll say this...  
bw in dc : 2/19/2021 4:25 pm : link
I don't know how you watch any of Lance's video - and I'm assuming Field wouldn't be available at #11 - and not conclude he's more gifted than Jones.
RE: RE: That's..  
UConn4523 : 2/19/2021 4:38 pm : link
In comment 15157384 Mike in NY said:
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In comment 15157381 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


the exact reason I said not to "go overboard" with that concept.

Everyone wants an elite QB. If it were so easy to just grab one, teams would mortgage a future every season to go after the top prospects

Build a good, strong team and let the chips fall. If QB is the hindering factor - get a new one.



If you are in a position to draft an elite QB you take one if you don't have one. The Giants are too far away from being in that position as Trevor Lawrence is going #1 and Zach Wilson (who I think has as much upside as any QB in this draft but might need a little more seasoning time than someone like Lawrence) is going Top 4. I don't see "elite" QB from any of the others. Lance is the only other one with the raw tools to become one, but I see a QB who needs a minimum of two years on the bench and also the lowest floor of the top QB's (I don't think Jones is among the top QB's). He is the one QB in this draft who I can see a team pulling a Dwayne Haskins on and cutting bait in under 2 years.


I echo this. I fully support a legit upgrade at QB if there was a reasonable way to do so. If we were picking top 5, absolutely should be in the cards.
RE: RE: RE: That's..  
Producer : 2/19/2021 4:42 pm : link
In comment 15157391 UConn4523 said:
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In comment 15157384 Mike in NY said:


Quote:


In comment 15157381 FatMan in Charlotte said:


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the exact reason I said not to "go overboard" with that concept.

Everyone wants an elite QB. If it were so easy to just grab one, teams would mortgage a future every season to go after the top prospects

Build a good, strong team and let the chips fall. If QB is the hindering factor - get a new one.



If you are in a position to draft an elite QB you take one if you don't have one. The Giants are too far away from being in that position as Trevor Lawrence is going #1 and Zach Wilson (who I think has as much upside as any QB in this draft but might need a little more seasoning time than someone like Lawrence) is going Top 4. I don't see "elite" QB from any of the others. Lance is the only other one with the raw tools to become one, but I see a QB who needs a minimum of two years on the bench and also the lowest floor of the top QB's (I don't think Jones is among the top QB's). He is the one QB in this draft who I can see a team pulling a Dwayne Haskins on and cutting bait in under 2 years.



I echo this. I fully support a legit upgrade at QB if there was a reasonable way to do so. If we were picking top 5, absolutely should be in the cards.


fair enough
I suspect if Lance is the next Mahomes....he won't make it to 11  
George from PA : 2/19/2021 4:49 pm : link
But let's say....some teams do.....and he is there at 11.

Let's hope someone trades up and offers a boatload.
RE: I'll say this...  
Producer : 2/19/2021 4:51 pm : link
In comment 15157387 bw in dc said:
Quote:
I don't know how you watch any of Lance's video - and I'm assuming Field wouldn't be available at #11 - and not conclude he's more gifted than Jones.


In terms of arm talent and athleticism, for sure. But the question about whether he has the stuff to be a franchise QB and become an elite NFL centerpiece involves more than that. I'm not in the QB evaluation business. I just think we need to do our due diligence. That's all. But I think he won't be there at 11 and it won't matter.
RE: I suspect if Lance is the next Mahomes....he won't make it to 11  
Producer : 2/19/2021 4:52 pm : link
In comment 15157399 George from PA said:
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But let's say....some teams do.....and he is there at 11.

Let's hope someone trades up and offers a boatload.


Agreed. he probably will go in the top-8 and won't get past Carolina.
RE: That's..  
Producer : 2/19/2021 4:58 pm : link
In comment 15157381 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
the exact reason I said not to "go overboard" with that concept.

Everyone wants an elite QB. If it were so easy to just grab one, teams would mortgage a future every season to go after the top prospects

Build a good, strong team and let the chips fall. If QB is the hindering factor - get a new one.


I generally agree but I think good teams, good team leaders like Reid, Payton, etc keep one eye open and will always consider the QB upgrade if it is there for them. I want us to think the same way. To me Jones isn't a franchise QB until he plays like it. When he does I will shut up. He has to earn it. I don't think he is entitled to a third season. He gets it because we have no other choice. Hopefully he makes the best of it and makes all this QB moot. Until then, we need to consider our options and keep one eye open on who is available to us. That's all I am saying. Lance has nice traits, as Cosell says, doesn't mean he is the second coming of Mahomes. I'm not qualified to make that judgement. Allegedly Judge and Gettleman are. Hopefully the do their due diligence. I would rather Gettleman admit a mistake with Jones, if he felt he made one, than to triple down. If Gettleman admitted a mistake like that and then drafted a high upside prospect, I wouldn't kill him for it. I liek people who admit mistakes and are able to change course.
FMIC was correct earlier  
eric2425ny : 2/19/2021 5:03 pm : link
This post assumes the Giants are not or will not look at Lance at all. I’m sure every team is looking at Lance. If you aren’t evaluating the top available players in a draft regardless of position you aren’t doing your job.
RE: RE: RE: RE: LOL..  
JoeDonLooney : 2/19/2021 5:30 pm : link
In comment 15157267 Thegratefulhead said:
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In comment 15157262 Producer said:


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In comment 15157253 Thegratefulhead said:
Look. If Jones was not a 6th pick in the draft, perhaps 17th or late first round, what would be the view of this audience? I said it in an earlier OP that IF we can trade down to say Loss Wages, and get an additional pick in the 2nd, I would do it and take Lance. I am tired of chest, dare I say breast feeding Jones. We need a leader not an excuse. And to be candid, that is all we have to date.

Quote:


In comment 15157240 FatMan in Charlotte said:


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you don't "kick the tires" on a guy at 11.

You either take him to be the starter or you pass. This isn't a "try it and then buy it" scenario.

Giants have some pressing needs they should try to fill in the draft. If they want to "kick the tires", they should take a QB in the 5th round or later and see how he does as a backup.

I like Lance but there is no way this happens. They need another year to evaluate Jones. It just is what it is. Not even sure we can afford a late round QB project. The roster is still weak and lacks depth. DJ should have a veteran Back Up IMHO.



Cosell says good evaluators don't need another year. They know what they have. So if they evaluate Lance and think he has a chance to be Mahomes would you then support making a move? Or you think it doesn't matter? That doesn't seem logical. Keep in mind the Chiefs drafted Mahomes when they had a very good QB and the Saints were prepared to draft Mahomes when they had Brees breaking records.

OK...If you think you are looking at a HoF QB...go for it. You better be right though. I just can't see the Giants doing this. It is so much better for the franchise if Jones turns out to be the guy.

That said, if Judge is looking at Lance and says this is the next Mahomes, gotta have him...sure, I am down. I just don't think we take that gamble.
2021 - Trade With Vegas Raiders in 1st  
JoeDonLooney : 2/19/2021 5:34 pm : link
Look. If Jones was not a 6th pick in the draft, perhaps 17th or late first round, what would be the view of this audience? I said it in an earlier OP that IF we can trade down to say Loss Wages, and get an additional pick in the 2nd, I would do it and take Lance. I am tired of chest, dare I say breast feeding Jones. We need a leader not an excuse. And to be candid, that is all we have to date.
Can we lock all the Dupes  
BigBlueCane : 2/19/2021 5:38 pm : link
and those that regged in Jan/Feb 21 to one thread please?
RE: The Super Bowl should be a lesson  
compton : 2/19/2021 6:14 pm : link
In comment 15157353 eric2425ny said:
Quote:
for all of those saying QB is everything. Mahomes played his ass off in that game and they got destroyed because their line sucked (due to injuries in this case) and their defense got owned.

It re-emphasized the point that you need a strong “team”. That SB is a sign of things to come in KC btw. With that monster contract they handed Mahomes good luck re-signing any of your good young players or signing any big name FA’s. Kelce isn’t getting any younger either. I see that team looking a lot like the Seahawks in a few years. Great QB, some good weapons acquired via draft, and then a bunch of holes on D and the offensive line because you have no money to sign anyone.


Yeah, but he got his team to back to back Super Bowls winning one. What more can anyone ask for?
...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 2/19/2021 6:15 pm : link
Seems like the growing consensus is Lawrence-Wilson 1-2 to Jags/Jets.

I like Jones, but it's so hard to tell with those 'Bama QBs because of the insane firepower at the skill positions.
RE: And the supposition behind..  
Jimmy Googs : 2/19/2021 6:53 pm : link
In comment 15157362 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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almost all of these threads is that Jones isn't capable of leading the team to success.

And it makes this comment reek of horseshit:



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You don't wait for your team to be ready to draft an elite talent at QB. You get the guy when he is there for you. These opportunities are rare and we must seize them when they are available to us.



That's what the Giants did with Jones and all you've done this season is complain about it and say he was overdrafted. A statement that would be true for Lance too - but it's OK - because in your eyes, he isn't Jones.

A lot of people here don't trust your eyes.


Producer - how's it going with your little rehabilitation project here? Was going to say "we told you so" but since he didn't at least call you a fuckstick or contrarian maybe you're making inroads.

good luck...
RE: RE: And the supposition behind..  
eric2425ny : 2/19/2021 7:21 pm : link
In comment 15157470 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 15157362 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


almost all of these threads is that Jones isn't capable of leading the team to success.

And it makes this comment reek of horseshit:



Quote:


You don't wait for your team to be ready to draft an elite talent at QB. You get the guy when he is there for you. These opportunities are rare and we must seize them when they are available to us.



That's what the Giants did with Jones and all you've done this season is complain about it and say he was overdrafted. A statement that would be true for Lance too - but it's OK - because in your eyes, he isn't Jones.

A lot of people here don't trust your eyes.



Producer - how's it going with your little rehabilitation project here? Was going to say "we told you so" but since he didn't at least call you a fuckstick or contrarian maybe you're making inroads.

good luck...


Lol, classic.
RE: RE: I'll say this...  
bw in dc : 2/19/2021 7:24 pm : link
In comment 15157400 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15157387 bw in dc said:


Quote:


I don't know how you watch any of Lance's video - and I'm assuming Field wouldn't be available at #11 - and not conclude he's more gifted than Jones.



In terms of arm talent and athleticism, for sure. But the question about whether he has the stuff to be a franchise QB and become an elite NFL centerpiece involves more than that. I'm not in the QB evaluation business. I just think we need to do our due diligence. That's all. But I think he won't be there at 11 and it won't matter.


I agree, but I think we can ask the same thing - in bold - about Jones. Right?
RE: RE: RE: I'll say this...  
Producer : 2/19/2021 9:10 pm : link
In comment 15157488 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15157400 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15157387 bw in dc said:


Quote:


I don't know how you watch any of Lance's video - and I'm assuming Field wouldn't be available at #11 - and not conclude he's more gifted than Jones.



In terms of arm talent and athleticism, for sure. But the question about whether he has the stuff to be a franchise QB and become an elite NFL centerpiece involves more than that. I'm not in the QB evaluation business. I just think we need to do our due diligence. That's all. But I think he won't be there at 11 and it won't matter.



I agree, but I think we can ask the same thing - in bold - about Jones. Right?


you know how i feel about that .. and i hope i am wrong but i am worried i am not. I am glad even the pro-Jones guys agree that the Giants need to do due diligence in case a prospect falls to them that they view has HoF potential. I think we are actually not separated by much. Of course, we all want a HoF QB. I think the pro-Jones contingent just doesn't want to discuss it until the Giants make the move. Then they'll hop on board. Whereas you and I and the usual suspects are more willing to anticipate our weaknesses and liabilities. I admit I would be even more pro-active, but I don't know it is a wiser strategy, but the least we should do is evaluate the QBs that fall to us and have a sense of how good they can be.

I have a hunch that Lance is going to skyrocket up boards as teams meet with him and he does the tryouts or pro days or what have you.
Producer...  
bw in dc : 2/19/2021 9:38 pm : link
Hey, you are preaching to the converted on this.

I would absolutely consider Jones expendable if we had a chance to grab a Fields/Lance. In fact, I would be trying to trade Jones like Arizona traded Rosen. Trying to figure out the best way to time it.

But I'm taking what Mara/Judge/Gettleman seriously when they say Jones is still their guy. They see capabilities in Jones I just don't see. So it's purely an academic exercise at this point - unfortunately.

RE: RE: LOL..  
81_Great_Dane : 2/19/2021 9:55 pm : link
In comment 15157248 eric2425ny said:
Quote:
In comment 15157240 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


you don't "kick the tires" on a guy at 11.

You either take him to be the starter or you pass. This isn't a "try it and then buy it" scenario.

Giants have some pressing needs they should try to fill in the draft. If they want to "kick the tires", they should take a QB in the 5th round or later and see how he does as a backup.



Agreed, there’s no way we take a QB at 11. They aren’t giving up on Jones after less than two seasons of starts. He’s shown enough promise to warrant a third season with more weapons at his disposal. There is no patience for young QB’s on this board lately. Not every QB comes in and lights it up there first two years in the league. If he sucks this year you look for another guy. Otherwise you are basically wasting the #11 pick if Jones progresses this season.
Not advocating this, but: If the coaches don't want Jones, don't believe in him, might as well trade him and draft the next guy. I wouldn't say "no way"; I'd say "seems unlikely." But Judge wasn't around when they drafted Jones, maybe he wants the kid as his QB, maybe he doesn't.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I'll say this...  
81_Great_Dane : 2/19/2021 10:00 pm : link
In comment 15157511 Producer said:
Quote:
I am glad even the pro-Jones guys agree that the Giants need to do due diligence in case a prospect falls to them that they view has HoF potential. I think we are actually not separated by much. Of course, we all want a HoF QB. I think the pro-Jones contingent just doesn't want to discuss it until the Giants make the move. Then they'll hop on board. Whereas you and I and the usual suspects are more willing to anticipate our weaknesses and liabilities. I admit I would be even more pro-active, but I don't know it is a wiser strategy, but the least we should do is evaluate the QBs that fall to us and have a sense of how good they can be.

I have a hunch that Lance is going to skyrocket up boards as teams meet with him and he does the tryouts or pro days or what have you.
I know that there are people who like Jones' game more and people who hate it, but I think everyone here (except the trolls) is united on one thing: We're pro-Giants. So whatever gets them to be a consistent winner, a playoff team and a championship contender is good. If that's developing Jones, fine. If it's replacing him, that's fine too. Just win, baby.
RE: RE: That's..  
section125 : 2/19/2021 10:11 pm : link
In comment 15157382 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15157381 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:



Everyone wants an elite QB. If it were so easy to just grab one, teams would mortgage a future every season to go after the top prospects




Well, we are very likely about to test that with D.Watson...


Who is "we?" WFT?
RE: RE: RE: That's..  
bw in dc : 2/19/2021 10:19 pm : link
In comment 15157528 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 15157382 bw in dc said:


Quote:


In comment 15157381 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:



Everyone wants an elite QB. If it were so easy to just grab one, teams would mortgage a future every season to go after the top prospects




Well, we are very likely about to test that with D.Watson...



Who is "we?" WFT?


The league. The market.

We are about to find out which teams are willing to mortgage their future to add an elite QB like Watson.
RE: RE: RE: RE: That's..  
section125 : 2/19/2021 10:22 pm : link
In comment 15157530 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15157528 section125 said:


Quote:


In comment 15157382 bw in dc said:


Quote:


In comment 15157381 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:



Everyone wants an elite QB. If it were so easy to just grab one, teams would mortgage a future every season to go after the top prospects




Well, we are very likely about to test that with D.Watson...



Who is "we?" WFT?



The league. The market.

We are about to find out which teams are willing to mortgage their future to add an elite QB like Watson.


Meh, I think he stays right where he is. Lots of noise.
So if..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/19/2021 10:27 pm : link
Watson stays put, what will the narrative be changed to?
Section 125...  
bw in dc : 2/19/2021 10:56 pm : link
I'm 70/30 that Watson is gone. Watson sounds all in on his intentions to leave. So it really boils down how miserable Watson is willing to make things with the Texans.

There will be options to help the Texans got better faster if they play their cards right - Miami, Denver, Charlotte, NYJ. It's just a matter of them saying it's time to move on...
RE: if the Giants think  
Milton : 2/20/2021 12:17 am : link
In comment 15157274 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:
Quote:
Lance is a future MVP candidate and completely blows them away during the pre-draft process, I'd have no problem with them drafting him.
But that's true of every QB in the draft. It would be no different if they felt that way about Kellen Mond, right? All you're really saying is that if the Giants think a player is a future MVP candidate they should draft him, which is kind of obvious. Not really going out on a limb there, are you?
the report on Mac Jones  
RasputinPrime : 2/20/2021 12:39 am : link
sure sounds like Brady.

Know your system and then draft your guys. Period.
I'm so far apart from the consensus here that I hesitate  
Grizz99 : 2/20/2021 5:26 am : link
to even express my opinion.
I'm going to suggest that' one of two alternatives speaking: My optimism is inappropriate; You've all been brainwashed by the incessant braying of the lunatic, negative ,need-driven fringe group here that occupies so much of the board's space (and is, mercifully, absent this thread).
I think there's almost indisputable evidence that we've been looking at a kid who has elite potential - there I said it.
I also reject the notion that you can rate a qb separately from his supporting cast. If that's so, Eli never won a superbowl, has no mobility in the pocket, no pocket sense and is terrified or a rush - because that's what he looked like playing in the situation that the kid inherited in 2019 and that deteriorated to the perfect storm in 2020.
He took over from Eli in 2019 without the benefit of working with the first team and in spite of that there was instant and dramatic improvement. All he did was break records for "new" QB's and demonstrate an almost uncanny accuracy that reminded me of Marino in his rookie year. still the braying, needy negatives emphasized ball control, turn overs and int's. And they pounded it like they pound the Saquon pick. And then they pounded it some more, and then they..........!1
For an encore the kid slid into the perfect storm, but never lost composure or dented an extreme work ethic.
A damn center who'd never played the position and, in spite of that, I can't recall a single botched snap from either the shotgun or under center. Unbelievable, and as much credit to Jones as Gates. A new line with out-of position players; the loss of Solder and Andrew forced to open at left tackle against all plans, precedent and sense; A new OC; the crippling anti-production of Evan E; the loss of the key to the offense with Saquon's injury; and clearly the most damaging was the bitter loss of a preseason which was more damaging to the teams that had new systems. A Perfect Storm.
If you take away the Evan E. turnovers Jones showed remarkable improvement in that department. Just as I thought he would. At the end I thought the pocket sense was developing and he was making plays after avoiding a rush.
And a long the way, it turns out he's fast - brilliantly so.
The now revered Josh Allen in his second year was the worst (or 2nd. worse) QB in the nfl at throws over twenty yards. And he was playing with an established and marginal playoff team within a consistent system and coaching. The rap was accuracy, the toughest thing to teach or acquire and something Jones has a remarkable abundance of. In fact, the kid doesn't need the touted separation, he consistently threw mediocre receivers open in his freshman year.
So in spite of what i think I'm seeing, a respected poster here suggests we consider dumping him (the way Josh Allen was dumped and that's a quote) and move on. Yet an objective service (writer?) just called Jones better than anyone in this draft not named Lawrence.
Wow, why wasn't that mentioned in this long thread?
I think, in spite of that, that there' reasonable and knowledgeable people on this thread, and being at such variance makes me question my judgment. But Stay tuned...
"to be continued"
Bill - You aren't though far from the consensus  
chick310 : 2/20/2021 7:14 am : link
as there's a fairly decent sized contingent here that suggests Daniel Jones will become a franchise QB. And an even larger one that feels he will become a good, better than average starting QB for many years.

Now clearly no one isn't going to go out on a limb and predict things like two magical playoff runs and Super Bowl rings. But much like elite QBs, few if any predict Super Bowls for them until they actually win one, and then they predict multiple yet almost all fall short of that.
Grizz  
Producer : 2/20/2021 7:21 am : link
I enjoyed your post quite a bit even though I don't share the optimism about Jones. I think he has been inconsistent and poor accuracy has cost us several games. I don't see the comparison to Marino at all. I think they are almost total opposites. Marino was a quick release pocket demon who would make 20 killer throws a game. Jones makes two nice throws a game from the pocket and usually looks flustered and has to make plays with his legs.

But I enjoy your writing and optimism. Thanks for sharing!
RE: Grizz  
section125 : 2/20/2021 7:54 am : link
In comment 15157577 Producer said:
Quote:
I enjoyed your post quite a bit even though I don't share the optimism about Jones. I think he has been inconsistent and poor accuracy has cost us several games. I don't see the comparison to Marino at all. I think they are almost total opposites. Marino was a quick release pocket demon who would make 20 killer throws a game. Jones makes two nice throws a game from the pocket and usually looks flustered and has to make plays with his legs.

But I enjoy your writing and optimism. Thanks for sharing!


Yeah, he is quite a bit more accurate than Eli and throws a much nicer ball. I do not know where this inaccurate BS comes from except from haters and those with an agenda.
I do not know if he makes it or if last year ruined him, but before we throw the baby out with the bath water, maybe we should get a chance to see him with more than one WR that can catch the ball.
RE: The Super Bowl should be a lesson  
EricJ : 2/20/2021 8:11 am : link
In comment 15157353 eric2425ny said:
Quote:
for all of those saying QB is everything. Mahomes played his ass off in that game and they got destroyed because their line sucked (due to injuries in this case) and their defense got owned.

It re-emphasized the point that you need a strong “team”.


This is exactly why I was against the idea of trading for Watson. Not because I don't think Watson could be better than Jones.. but because we would have to give up so much to the point where we would not be able to build a team around him. Watson cannot take this team to a superbowl. He could not do it with Houston's roster so how would it be possible with this group of offensive misfits?
RE: While I’m confident the Giants aren’t going  
Milton : 2/20/2021 8:12 am : link
In comment 15157288 eric2425ny said:
Quote:
QB at 11, for a multitude of reasons, I think all teams perform their due diligence on every prospect, particularly those in the first wave of players. I’m sure the Giants are even looking at Lawrence. Why? Because you never know what can happen. If Lawrence has some off field issue, gets hurt playing basketball or skiing, etc. he could start to drop in the draft and be a viable option.
Not just that, there may come a time when Lawrence is on the trading block or is a free agent. This is a chance to interview him and get info on things you can't see on film. You can bet that right now the Giants are looking at all their write-ups from when this year's free agents were just prospects in the draft.
The only way the Giants consider a QB with their first pick...  
EricJ : 2/20/2021 8:12 am : link
is if the guy happens to fall to them. They are not trading up to pick a QB.
RE: the report on Mac Jones  
Milton : 2/20/2021 8:32 am : link
In comment 15157554 RasputinPrime said:
Quote:
sure sounds like Brady.

Know your system and then draft your guys. Period.
Montana, Brady, and Rivers are the names that come to mind when I think of QBs without any outstanding physical traits other than "good anticipation" and "he knew where to go with the ball quickly" (as Cosell says of Mac Jones). Obviously it takes more than that to be the next Montana, Brady, or Rivers, but this is a guy worth the due diligence because he could be available in the 2nd or 3rd round. And given Daniel Jones's history of injuries (one of my biggest concerns with him, because it dates back to his college days), a Day 2 investment in a promising back up QB isn't such a wasted pick. It's expensive insurance, but you're always gonna pay more for insurance on a Cadillac than you will on a Chevy (and QB is the Cadillac of positions on the football field).
"He meant Lexus but he ain't know it" - ( New Window )
Producer  
Mike from Ohio : 2/20/2021 10:13 am : link
To be clear, everyone on this site expects the Giants to “do their due diligence” on every QB in the draft. You seem to be strongly arguing that the Giants should do something that everyone agrees they would do. You seem to be operating under the idea that the Giants will not scout QBs because of Jones. That is absurd.

The Giants will scout, evaluate and rate every QB in the draft, including the guys that will almost certainly be drafted before 11. It is what they - and every NFL team does every year. I’d suggest that for the past 15 years the Patriots have done their “due diligence” on QBs each year also.

If you are arguing they should draft. QB at the top of the first then that is an argument. Whether or not they should evaluate them is not a point of contention with anyone.
RE: Producer  
Producer : 2/20/2021 1:19 pm : link
In comment 15157633 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:
To be clear, everyone on this site expects the Giants to “do their due diligence” on every QB in the draft. You seem to be strongly arguing that the Giants should do something that everyone agrees they would do. You seem to be operating under the idea that the Giants will not scout QBs because of Jones. That is absurd.

The Giants will scout, evaluate and rate every QB in the draft, including the guys that will almost certainly be drafted before 11. It is what they - and every NFL team does every year. I’d suggest that for the past 15 years the Patriots have done their “due diligence” on QBs each year also.

If you are arguing they should draft. QB at the top of the first then that is an argument. Whether or not they should evaluate them is not a point of contention with anyone.


I am glad we agree on the obvious for sure.

And do we agree if an honest evaluation places an available QB well beyond Jones' potential that we should draft that QB? Do we agree that if our braintrust decides to pass on a prospect due to a poor eval and that prospect becomes a stud and a better QB than what we have, that there should be consequences and no excuses?

We have, arguably, already missed on Mahomes, Josh Allen and Herbert. Are you happy about this? These are franchise-defining choices that are being made. And so far it isn't looking good.
Cosell  
giantstock : 2/20/2021 1:33 pm : link
He had Josh Allen rated very low and Josh Rosen very high.

Just sayin . . .
RE: RE: Producer  
Mike in NY : 2/20/2021 1:48 pm : link
In comment 15157721 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15157633 Mike from Ohio said:


Quote:


To be clear, everyone on this site expects the Giants to “do their due diligence” on every QB in the draft. You seem to be strongly arguing that the Giants should do something that everyone agrees they would do. You seem to be operating under the idea that the Giants will not scout QBs because of Jones. That is absurd.

The Giants will scout, evaluate and rate every QB in the draft, including the guys that will almost certainly be drafted before 11. It is what they - and every NFL team does every year. I’d suggest that for the past 15 years the Patriots have done their “due diligence” on QBs each year also.

If you are arguing they should draft. QB at the top of the first then that is an argument. Whether or not they should evaluate them is not a point of contention with anyone.



I am glad we agree on the obvious for sure.

And do we agree if an honest evaluation places an available QB well beyond Jones' potential that we should draft that QB? Do we agree that if our braintrust decides to pass on a prospect due to a poor eval and that prospect becomes a stud and a better QB than what we have, that there should be consequences and no excuses?

We have, arguably, already missed on Mahomes, Josh Allen and Herbert. Are you happy about this? These are franchise-defining choices that are being made. And so far it isn't looking good.


If they are correct about their evaluations what do they get? This appears to be a no win situation you have laid out. Mahomes, there were people who wanted him but we could not offer anything close to what KC could. As far as Allen, many had him as 3rd or 4th best QB in his class and he struggled his first two seasons. Yes Buffalo made the playoffs after 2019 season, but that was in large part due to their Defense. He made tremendous strides this year, but that was after adding a WR1 in Diggs. Jones has no WR anywhere near as talented. I can also see passing on Herbert even though Gettleman likely would have taken Herbert over Jones in 2019 Draft. Jones showed some obvious flaws as a rookie, but he also flashed obvious potential. Let's not forget that Eli Manning did not complete 50% of his passes and had more INT's than TD's as a rookie. This was not replacing a Josh Rosen who looked completely lost with a Kyler Murray. If Herbert had been in the 2019 Draft he likely would have been thought of on the same level as Daniel Jones.
RE: RE: RE: Producer  
Producer : 2/20/2021 2:04 pm : link
In comment 15157740 Mike in NY said:
Quote:
In comment 15157721 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15157633 Mike from Ohio said:


Quote:


To be clear, everyone on this site expects the Giants to “do their due diligence” on every QB in the draft. You seem to be strongly arguing that the Giants should do something that everyone agrees they would do. You seem to be operating under the idea that the Giants will not scout QBs because of Jones. That is absurd.

The Giants will scout, evaluate and rate every QB in the draft, including the guys that will almost certainly be drafted before 11. It is what they - and every NFL team does every year. I’d suggest that for the past 15 years the Patriots have done their “due diligence” on QBs each year also.

If you are arguing they should draft. QB at the top of the first then that is an argument. Whether or not they should evaluate them is not a point of contention with anyone.



I am glad we agree on the obvious for sure.

And do we agree if an honest evaluation places an available QB well beyond Jones' potential that we should draft that QB? Do we agree that if our braintrust decides to pass on a prospect due to a poor eval and that prospect becomes a stud and a better QB than what we have, that there should be consequences and no excuses?

We have, arguably, already missed on Mahomes, Josh Allen and Herbert. Are you happy about this? These are franchise-defining choices that are being made. And so far it isn't looking good.



If they are correct about their evaluations what do they get? This appears to be a no win situation you have laid out. Mahomes, there were people who wanted him but we could not offer anything close to what KC could. As far as Allen, many had him as 3rd or 4th best QB in his class and he struggled his first two seasons. Yes Buffalo made the playoffs after 2019 season, but that was in large part due to their Defense. He made tremendous strides this year, but that was after adding a WR1 in Diggs. Jones has no WR anywhere near as talented. I can also see passing on Herbert even though Gettleman likely would have taken Herbert over Jones in 2019 Draft. Jones showed some obvious flaws as a rookie, but he also flashed obvious potential. Let's not forget that Eli Manning did not complete 50% of his passes and had more INT's than TD's as a rookie. This was not replacing a Josh Rosen who looked completely lost with a Kyler Murray. If Herbert had been in the 2019 Draft he likely would have been thought of on the same level as Daniel Jones.


To answer your question (What do they get?): They get to lift a trophy and keep their (very high-paying) jobs. Don't weep for these guys they can retire on what they make in a couple of years. Hold them to account.

Herbert definitely would not be in the same category as Jones. We over-drafted Jones - which I really didn't mind at the time because Gettleman made a choice - I want people to make choices - I also want them to own up when they make a mistake and be unafraid to change course if we need to. But Herbert was superior to Jones in almost every respect including athletic traits and college success. And as a pro there really is no comparison. there is nobody who would take Jones over Herbert at this juncture.

RE: RE: RE: RE: Producer  
BigBlueShock : 2/20/2021 2:38 pm : link
In comment 15157750 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15157740 Mike in NY said:


Quote:


In comment 15157721 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15157633 Mike from Ohio said:


Quote:


To be clear, everyone on this site expects the Giants to “do their due diligence” on every QB in the draft. You seem to be strongly arguing that the Giants should do something that everyone agrees they would do. You seem to be operating under the idea that the Giants will not scout QBs because of Jones. That is absurd.

The Giants will scout, evaluate and rate every QB in the draft, including the guys that will almost certainly be drafted before 11. It is what they - and every NFL team does every year. I’d suggest that for the past 15 years the Patriots have done their “due diligence” on QBs each year also.

If you are arguing they should draft. QB at the top of the first then that is an argument. Whether or not they should evaluate them is not a point of contention with anyone.



I am glad we agree on the obvious for sure.

And do we agree if an honest evaluation places an available QB well beyond Jones' potential that we should draft that QB? Do we agree that if our braintrust decides to pass on a prospect due to a poor eval and that prospect becomes a stud and a better QB than what we have, that there should be consequences and no excuses?

We have, arguably, already missed on Mahomes, Josh Allen and Herbert. Are you happy about this? These are franchise-defining choices that are being made. And so far it isn't looking good.



If they are correct about their evaluations what do they get? This appears to be a no win situation you have laid out. Mahomes, there were people who wanted him but we could not offer anything close to what KC could. As far as Allen, many had him as 3rd or 4th best QB in his class and he struggled his first two seasons. Yes Buffalo made the playoffs after 2019 season, but that was in large part due to their Defense. He made tremendous strides this year, but that was after adding a WR1 in Diggs. Jones has no WR anywhere near as talented. I can also see passing on Herbert even though Gettleman likely would have taken Herbert over Jones in 2019 Draft. Jones showed some obvious flaws as a rookie, but he also flashed obvious potential. Let's not forget that Eli Manning did not complete 50% of his passes and had more INT's than TD's as a rookie. This was not replacing a Josh Rosen who looked completely lost with a Kyler Murray. If Herbert had been in the 2019 Draft he likely would have been thought of on the same level as Daniel Jones.



To answer your question (What do they get?): They get to lift a trophy and keep their (very high-paying) jobs. Don't weep for these guys they can retire on what they make in a couple of years. Hold them to account.

Herbert definitely would not be in the same category as Jones. We over-drafted Jones - which I really didn't mind at the time because Gettleman made a choice - I want people to make choices - I also want them to own up when they make a mistake and be unafraid to change course if we need to. But Herbert was superior to Jones in almost every respect including athletic traits and college success. And as a pro there really is no comparison. there is nobody who would take Jones over Herbert at this juncture.

Right here is the crux of the issue. You wanted the Giants to “own up when they make a mistake and be unafraid to change” after one season of Jones after he threw 24 TDs as a rookie in less than a full season. Sure he had his struggles as well, but that’s simply unreasonable. And actually let me change that. You didn’t want the Giants to move on from Jones for Herbert before the draft last season, you want them to go back in history and do it now. You were nowhere on this board before the draft pounding the table for Herbert. In fact, nobody was.

This isn’t Madden. YOUR impatience in letting Jones develop is of no concern to the Giants. Or anyone else on the planet. Yet here we are, stuck having to navigate thread after thread after thread with you crying that Jones sucks and you want your franchise QB immediately. Just give it a rest, man. For fucks sake. We get it.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Producer  
Producer : 2/20/2021 2:59 pm : link
In comment 15157766 BigBlueShock said:
Quote:
In comment 15157750 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15157740 Mike in NY said:


Quote:


In comment 15157721 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15157633 Mike from Ohio said:


Quote:


To be clear, everyone on this site expects the Giants to “do their due diligence” on every QB in the draft. You seem to be strongly arguing that the Giants should do something that everyone agrees they would do. You seem to be operating under the idea that the Giants will not scout QBs because of Jones. That is absurd.

The Giants will scout, evaluate and rate every QB in the draft, including the guys that will almost certainly be drafted before 11. It is what they - and every NFL team does every year. I’d suggest that for the past 15 years the Patriots have done their “due diligence” on QBs each year also.

If you are arguing they should draft. QB at the top of the first then that is an argument. Whether or not they should evaluate them is not a point of contention with anyone.



I am glad we agree on the obvious for sure.

And do we agree if an honest evaluation places an available QB well beyond Jones' potential that we should draft that QB? Do we agree that if our braintrust decides to pass on a prospect due to a poor eval and that prospect becomes a stud and a better QB than what we have, that there should be consequences and no excuses?

We have, arguably, already missed on Mahomes, Josh Allen and Herbert. Are you happy about this? These are franchise-defining choices that are being made. And so far it isn't looking good.



If they are correct about their evaluations what do they get? This appears to be a no win situation you have laid out. Mahomes, there were people who wanted him but we could not offer anything close to what KC could. As far as Allen, many had him as 3rd or 4th best QB in his class and he struggled his first two seasons. Yes Buffalo made the playoffs after 2019 season, but that was in large part due to their Defense. He made tremendous strides this year, but that was after adding a WR1 in Diggs. Jones has no WR anywhere near as talented. I can also see passing on Herbert even though Gettleman likely would have taken Herbert over Jones in 2019 Draft. Jones showed some obvious flaws as a rookie, but he also flashed obvious potential. Let's not forget that Eli Manning did not complete 50% of his passes and had more INT's than TD's as a rookie. This was not replacing a Josh Rosen who looked completely lost with a Kyler Murray. If Herbert had been in the 2019 Draft he likely would have been thought of on the same level as Daniel Jones.



To answer your question (What do they get?): They get to lift a trophy and keep their (very high-paying) jobs. Don't weep for these guys they can retire on what they make in a couple of years. Hold them to account.

Herbert definitely would not be in the same category as Jones. We over-drafted Jones - which I really didn't mind at the time because Gettleman made a choice - I want people to make choices - I also want them to own up when they make a mistake and be unafraid to change course if we need to. But Herbert was superior to Jones in almost every respect including athletic traits and college success. And as a pro there really is no comparison. there is nobody who would take Jones over Herbert at this juncture.



Right here is the crux of the issue. You wanted the Giants to “own up when they make a mistake and be unafraid to change” after one season of Jones after he threw 24 TDs as a rookie in less than a full season. Sure he had his struggles as well, but that’s simply unreasonable. And actually let me change that. You didn’t want the Giants to move on from Jones for Herbert before the draft last season, you want them to go back in history and do it now. You were nowhere on this board before the draft pounding the table for Herbert. In fact, nobody was.

This isn’t Madden. YOUR impatience in letting Jones develop is of no concern to the Giants. Or anyone else on the planet. Yet here we are, stuck having to navigate thread after thread after thread with you crying that Jones sucks and you want your franchise QB immediately. Just give it a rest, man. For fucks sake. We get it.


I'm not pounding the table to get rid of Jones. I am discussing team-building strategy. I never once said we should chuck Jones, though I do not agree his rookie season was all that promising. He was pretty good at times in 2019 but there were plenty of warning signs. And in 2020 the warning signs remain and the overall production has been bad. I am sorry discussion about what to do at QB pains you so much that you feel the need to make this personal. What an NFL team does at QB is pretty important and should be open to discussion. As Gil Brandt used to say, he was always looking for QBs, even when he had a great one.

And if you are so annoyed by this discussion you should know that you have free will and have the ability to ignore it. I ignore a lot of stuff I think is dumb and pointless on this board, you can do the same.

Listening to those I trust  
uconngiant : 2/21/2021 2:38 am : link
he has a hitch in his throw and again the competition wasn't great
Judge has said over and over again  
BigBlueCane : 2/21/2021 10:24 am : link
that Jones is his guy and the QB here.

Producer  
Mike from Ohio : 2/21/2021 12:05 pm : link
None of us will ever know if the Giants had a guy rated as a significant upgrade over Jones and passed on him if he fell, so the question you ask is meaningless. It is a complete unknown.

Say for example Lawrence falls on draft day and is sitting there at #11 and the Giants passed. Did they pass because they are committed to Jones and never considered another QB? Or did they pass for the same reasons 10 other teams passed on him - they had significant doubts? None of us will ever know that.

The Giants did not “pass” on Mahomes. He was drafted before they picked. What you are asking is “why didn’t we trade up 13 spots to get him? Maybe the same reason the Bears took Trubisky over Mahomes? The same reason the Bills traded out of the same spot to pass on Mahomes? Everyone likes to look back at what Mahomes has become and say “Gee, everyone should have known that,” but they didn’t. And it wasn’t just the Giants.

So to answer your question, no we should not be mad if a guy slips past them and becomes and all-pro because we have no idea how they were rated by the Giants. If they slipped out of the top 10 picks then other teams had doubts also.
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