When the dust settled, I came up with a four-year, $72.9 million contract (average of $18.225 million per year) with just over $43.075 million (60%) of the deal guaranteed and a very cap-friendly $7.825 million in the first year (versus the $19+ million that it will likely cost the team if they franchise him.
is that they likely won't be able to afford franchising him this year because of the reduced salary cap. If he's franchised, his entire salary will count against the cap this year. Therefore, LW will have a lot more negotiating leverage.
While a deal like this would make sense most years, I'd be surprised if Williams gets under $20m a year.
Williams has little incentive to take a lower-than-market deal. And despite the lower cap, there is plenty of available money in the market.
The benchmark is the 4/$80M deal Chris Jones signed in 2020. $37.6M fully guaranteed, with $55.7M practically guaranteed.
As we get closer to knowing the cap and the ramifications, I'd expect Williams to be offered somewhere in the 5/100M range, with 45M fully guaranteed, and 65M practically guaranteed.
21: 4M signing(g), 7.5m salary(g) - 11.5M hit
22: 4M signing(g), 17.5M salary(g) - 21.5M hit
23: 4M signing(g), 20M salary(g 1st day of 22) - 24M hit
24: 4M signing(g), 20M salary - 24M hit
25: 4M signing(g), 15M salary - 19M hit
RE: Look, be prepared for us to pay LW around 20/year.
Williams has little incentive to take a lower-than-market deal. And despite the lower cap, there is plenty of available money in the market.
The benchmark is the 4/$80M deal Chris Jones signed in 2020. $37.6M fully guaranteed, with $55.7M practically guaranteed.
As we get closer to knowing the cap and the ramifications, I'd expect Williams to be offered somewhere in the 5/100M range, with 45M fully guaranteed, and 65M practically guaranteed.
21: 4M signing(g), 7.5m salary(g) - 11.5M hit
22: 4M signing(g), 17.5M salary(g) - 21.5M hit
23: 4M signing(g), 20M salary(g 1st day of 22) - 24M hit
24: 4M signing(g), 20M salary - 24M hit
25: 4M signing(g), 15M salary - 19M hit
Christian - is it more customary to have the lowest cap hit in year 1 in recently executed big deals?
Wonder if NYG really need/want that relief this year if they may not be focused on any other big ticket free agents. Not saying that is the case, just thinking out loud. Also, some of the younger "core" guys like Barkley, Jones and Lawrence will be coming up soon so maybe they need the space in a few years moreso than now. Spitballing...
I'd expect Williams to be offered somewhere in the 5/100M range, with 45M fully guaranteed, and 65M practically guaranteed.
This sounds about right to me, too, which means he'll probably get a tad more than that from them when all is said and done. They may have to use the franchise tag to get him to agree to a longterm deal. If he gets to free agency, he's gone.
Remind me, what is the advantage of using the tag on LW
for a second year? Maybe in a tag and trade scenario, but why else, especially since the Giants gain no control of him going forward for the guarnanteed monies given him?
Wonder if NYG really need/want that relief this year if they may not be focused on any other big ticket free agents. Not saying that is the case, just thinking out loud. Also, some of the younger "core" guys like Barkley, Jones and Lawrence will be coming up soon so maybe they need the space in a few years moreso than now. Spitballing...
With the cap going down due to Covid this is the year to be creative with contracts and push some out to the latter years. Keep in mind the cap will go up big time in the next couple of years post Covid in part due to some new TV money that is going to just keep growing.
Williams has little incentive to take a lower-than-market deal. And despite the lower cap, there is plenty of available money in the market.
The benchmark is the 4/$80M deal Chris Jones signed in 2020. $37.6M fully guaranteed, with $55.7M practically guaranteed.
As we get closer to knowing the cap and the ramifications, I'd expect Williams to be offered somewhere in the 5/100M range, with 45M fully guaranteed, and 65M practically guaranteed.
21: 4M signing(g), 7.5m salary(g) - 11.5M hit
22: 4M signing(g), 17.5M salary(g) - 21.5M hit
23: 4M signing(g), 20M salary(g 1st day of 22) - 24M hit
24: 4M signing(g), 20M salary - 24M hit
25: 4M signing(g), 15M salary - 19M hit
Christian - is it more customary to have the lowest cap hit in year 1 in recently executed big deals?
Wonder if NYG really need/want that relief this year if they may not be focused on any other big ticket free agents. Not saying that is the case, just thinking out loud. Also, some of the younger "core" guys like Barkley, Jones and Lawrence will be coming up soon so maybe they need the space in a few years moreso than now. Spitballing...
You can always roll that cap space from the smaller year 1 hit forward into the next year if the goal is to bank cap space for 2022, but one of the main reasons why the hit in the first year of a multi-year deal is lower is that the player receives his signing bonus that year (or the bulk of it, at least, depending on the structure), so a team can bury a low salary into that season without disrupting the player's true income for the year.
You can always just put a decent-sized guaranteed salary into year 1 and a big salary into year 2, and then convert most of that second year's salary to bonus when the time comes, which will effectively shift the low year into a subsequent season, but that would require the player to cooperate - he could potentially make things difficult if he wanted to try to get another bite at the apple, not to mention the fact that the signing bonus dead money is often the player's best assurance of receiving non-guaranteed salaries down the line.
And if a team were to frontload a contract too aggressively, they'd be inviting a holdout once the player has received the bulk of his money and has nothing but cheap year(s) ahead.
Relative to re-negotiating anything with Williams, I think it best the Giants get what they want now as there hasn't exactly been a meeting of the minds here for the past 1.5 years.
Williams would become the 4th highest paid defensive tackle in the league, and the highest paid player on the Giants . . . . that kind of contract just doesn't feel right.
Williams would become the 4th highest paid defensive tackle in the league, and the highest paid player on the Giants . . . . that kind of contract just doesn't feel right.
Spending 20 million on o DL on a bad team doesn’t make much sense. There are TO many other holes to fill.
RE: Remind me, what is the advantage of using the tag on LW
Tagging him doesn't necessarily mean he plays on the tag in 2021. More often than not, tagged players wind up negotiating a longterm deal before training camp, and oftentimes it is negotiated before the start of free agency (as the deadline for tagging players occurs before its start). But the tag will keep him from entering the free market and force him to negotiate a "reasonable" deal or risk serious injury playing another year on it. Playing on the tag was advantageous for Williams in 2020 but he may not want to press his luck with $50-$60M in guaranteed money staring him in the face. If I had to choose between a one-year $19.4M contract and a 5-year $100M deal with $50-$60M guaranteed, I know which I would choose.
RE: RE: Remind me, what is the advantage of using the tag on LW
Tagging him doesn't necessarily mean he plays on the tag in 2021. More often than not, tagged players wind up negotiating a longterm deal before training camp, and oftentimes it is negotiated before the start of free agency (as the deadline for tagging players occurs before its start). But the tag will keep him from entering the free market and force him to negotiate a "reasonable" deal or risk serious injury playing another year on it. Playing on the tag was advantageous for Williams in 2020 but he may not want to press his luck with $50-$60M in guaranteed money staring him in the face. If I had to choose between a one-year $19.4M contract and a 5-year $100M deal with $50-$60M guaranteed, I know which I would choose.
Which would you choose?
RE: RE: RE: Remind me, what is the advantage of using the tag on LW
Playing on the tag was advantageous for Williams in 2020 but he may not want to press his luck with $50-$60M in guaranteed money staring him in the face. If I had to choose between a one-year $19.4M contract and a 5-year $100M deal with $50-$60M guaranteed, I know which I would choose.
Which would you choose?
The $50-$60M guaranteed (but I probably would've done the same last year when doing the opposite worked out pretty well for Williams).
RE: RE: RE: RE: Remind me, what is the advantage of using the tag on LW
Playing on the tag was advantageous for Williams in 2020 but he may not want to press his luck with $50-$60M in guaranteed money staring him in the face. If I had to choose between a one-year $19.4M contract and a 5-year $100M deal with $50-$60M guaranteed, I know which I would choose.
Which would you choose?
The $50-$60M guaranteed (but I probably would've done the same last year when doing the opposite worked out pretty well for Williams).
Wait a minute...you're suggesting the Giants take advantage of the franchise tag to force Williams take $20M per year approx $55M guaranteed contract?
Wait a minute...you're suggesting the Giants take advantage of the franchise tag to force Williams take $20M per year approx $55M guaranteed contract? That's the benefit of the tag?
Yup. Crazy, I know, but that's the reality in today's NFL. If he can maintain the level of play we saw in 2020, it will be a good deal for the Giants given the future of salary cap. If his play slips or he misses a bunch of time via injury it will backfire.
Firstly, it’s not my money. Secondly, nothing they do
with LW is going to place them in cap hell or prevent them from pursuing other FAs that fit in and are versatile.
As to those support money being spent elsewhere given “all our holes,” who are you going to get, who is 26-27, still in their prime, in the top 3-4 (or better) at their position who won’t cost at or near what LW will eventually cost.
Sign him, fill in areas with 2nd tier players and continue building through the draft. This is not rocket science
with LW is going to place them in cap hell or prevent them from pursuing other FAs that fit in and are versatile.
As to those support money being spent elsewhere given “all our holes,” who are you going to get, who is 26-27, still in their prime, in the top 3-4 (or better) at their position who won’t cost at or near what LW will eventually cost.
Sign him, fill in areas with 2nd tier players and continue building through the draft. This is not rocket science
Don't kid yourself...it certainly doesn't help them from being more flexible and/or pursuing some guys they otherwise would like to be in the bidding for.
Agree with your last sentence though, that seems like what they have to do if they are hell bent on putting LW under a big deal.
deal that I read about shortly after trading for him in Oct 2019 sure got away from us quick, huh?
It was a fait accompli, right? I recall that Gettleman and Team LW apparently had a gentlemen's agreement in place and the deal would get done quickly. Hmmmm.
The options are pretty simple in my mind...
-- Tag LW again and make him approve it again.
-- Tag and try to trade him.
-- Let LW hit the open market, let a team over-pay, and
use that money for more significant needs - the
offense.
the downside is that hurts our 2021 flexibility but who knows with whatever surprise cuts might be looming.
Without knowing how much he’d actually sign for its hard to gauge. I’m fine with a long term deal but the Tag is enticing, especially since there’s really no one else worth using it on this year. I wouldn’t let him walk though, tag him if it gets to that.
the downside is that hurts our 2021 flexibility but who knows with whatever surprise cuts might be looming.
Without knowing how much he’d actually sign for its hard to gauge. I’m fine with a long term deal but the Tag is enticing, especially since there’s really no one else worth using it on this year. I wouldn’t let him walk though, tag him if it gets to that.
LW has had one good year, and you want to make him one of the highest paid DL in football. NO NO, and NO. To many holes to fill, and with him, or without him they are still a bad football team.
the downside is that hurts our 2021 flexibility but who knows with whatever surprise cuts might be looming
Without doing anything more than the expected cuts (Solder, Tate), extending Bradberry and Martinez, and either trading or releasing Engram, the Giants can tag Williams and still have $21M left in cap room. And that's if the cap is set at $180M. I expect it to be above $190M.
the downside is that hurts our 2021 flexibility but who knows with whatever surprise cuts might be looming.
Without knowing how much he’d actually sign for its hard to gauge. I’m fine with a long term deal but the Tag is enticing, especially since there’s really no one else worth using it on this year. I wouldn’t let him walk though, tag him if it gets to that.
LW has had one good year, and you want to make him one of the highest paid DL in football. NO NO, and NO. To many holes to fill, and with him, or without him they are still a bad football team.
He hasn’t had 1 good year. He’s had a good career and just now started getting the sacks. Why? You say it’s because he’s going to get paid, I say it’s because he’s on a better line than he was with the Jets and our superiors overage gave him that extra time he never had to close.
Will he pack it in after getting paid? I don’t know, I don’t worry about that stuff because it’s a coin flip and can be applied to just about any player that isn’t a QB.
I just can't see the Giants not getting him signed. However, I still don't believe that is the best move for them long term. A 5 year deal takes to the other side of 30, which to me is a mistake. I also don't think there is anything to indicate he will replicate the level of play this year, let alone do it for 5 years. If they could work something out for 3-4 years at less than $20M, I would think about it a little differently. But, I still have trouble with the notion of paying him as a top 5 DL, when he has had exactly 1 season at that level of play.
I think the tag a 2nd year, at this point, is the worst for both sides. For the Giants it applies 100% to the cap this year, which is a lot given the needs that still exist, including others we want to re-sign. From Williams' perspective, that requires betting on himself again, which means he not only has to produce, but has to stay healthy. Then again, that gives him 2 years of nearly $40M in guaranteed money (last year and this year).
How would something like a 4 year/$70M deal work for both sides, with $40M guaranteed? Maybe go as high as $75M. This still allows for a lot of guaranteed money at a low average salary. Pre-rated, it is more guaranteed money against the number of years when comparing to a 5 year deal at $50 guaranteed. To me, this is still more than fair to him, and a little better for the Giants with 1 less year.
I just still have the burning question, which is how strongly do you feel about receiving the same level of production? I don't think it is likely, but it is necessary to back up a deal. You can't even say he needs to get paid for his past production, because he just received over $18M last year. That paid for his production. The next deal is all about what he will do going forward. I get his perspective, as it is either his last NFL contract, or at the very least it is his last big NFL contract. But, I don't think enough people see the Giants perspective.
A lot of athletes get paid for past production. This is not the case here. He played on his rookie deal and was OK with only 1 really good year. Then the Giants tagged him, which paid him a ton of money and he earned every penny of it. But, that means the next deal has nothing to make up for. It should be about speculating what we will receive from him moving forward. The 1 year of guaranteed money he received this past year is a big reason I would advocate for a 3-4 year deal, and up the percentage of guaranteed money to make it more appealing to him. That may be the only way to make it work for both sides.
The reality is, a 5 year deal means he probably couldn't be cut until 3 more years, but that leaves a lot more dead cap space, especially if it is a back loaded deal. I'm deeply concerned about what this deal would look like in 3 or more years from now. If we were a SB ready team, I might be more inclined to pull the trigger. But, we aren't and I'm not just not convinced we will continue to get such a high level as we add more talent. Again, I reiterate that this past year was far beyond anything he produced before. And the only other big year he had was a few years ago.
While a deal like this would make sense most years, I'd be surprised if Williams gets under $20m a year.
Probably, but that wouldn’t change the first year hit all that much. Hope we can get this done.
The benchmark is the 4/$80M deal Chris Jones signed in 2020. $37.6M fully guaranteed, with $55.7M practically guaranteed.
As we get closer to knowing the cap and the ramifications, I'd expect Williams to be offered somewhere in the 5/100M range, with 45M fully guaranteed, and 65M practically guaranteed.
21: 4M signing(g), 7.5m salary(g) - 11.5M hit
22: 4M signing(g), 17.5M salary(g) - 21.5M hit
23: 4M signing(g), 20M salary(g 1st day of 22) - 24M hit
24: 4M signing(g), 20M salary - 24M hit
25: 4M signing(g), 15M salary - 19M hit
Yeah, what a blessing...
The benchmark is the 4/$80M deal Chris Jones signed in 2020. $37.6M fully guaranteed, with $55.7M practically guaranteed.
As we get closer to knowing the cap and the ramifications, I'd expect Williams to be offered somewhere in the 5/100M range, with 45M fully guaranteed, and 65M practically guaranteed.
21: 4M signing(g), 7.5m salary(g) - 11.5M hit
22: 4M signing(g), 17.5M salary(g) - 21.5M hit
23: 4M signing(g), 20M salary(g 1st day of 22) - 24M hit
24: 4M signing(g), 20M salary - 24M hit
25: 4M signing(g), 15M salary - 19M hit
Christian - is it more customary to have the lowest cap hit in year 1 in recently executed big deals?
Wonder if NYG really need/want that relief this year if they may not be focused on any other big ticket free agents. Not saying that is the case, just thinking out loud. Also, some of the younger "core" guys like Barkley, Jones and Lawrence will be coming up soon so maybe they need the space in a few years moreso than now. Spitballing...
Wonder if NYG really need/want that relief this year if they may not be focused on any other big ticket free agents. Not saying that is the case, just thinking out loud. Also, some of the younger "core" guys like Barkley, Jones and Lawrence will be coming up soon so maybe they need the space in a few years moreso than now. Spitballing...
With the cap going down due to Covid this is the year to be creative with contracts and push some out to the latter years. Keep in mind the cap will go up big time in the next couple of years post Covid in part due to some new TV money that is going to just keep growing.
Quote:
Williams has little incentive to take a lower-than-market deal. And despite the lower cap, there is plenty of available money in the market.
The benchmark is the 4/$80M deal Chris Jones signed in 2020. $37.6M fully guaranteed, with $55.7M practically guaranteed.
As we get closer to knowing the cap and the ramifications, I'd expect Williams to be offered somewhere in the 5/100M range, with 45M fully guaranteed, and 65M practically guaranteed.
21: 4M signing(g), 7.5m salary(g) - 11.5M hit
22: 4M signing(g), 17.5M salary(g) - 21.5M hit
23: 4M signing(g), 20M salary(g 1st day of 22) - 24M hit
24: 4M signing(g), 20M salary - 24M hit
25: 4M signing(g), 15M salary - 19M hit
Christian - is it more customary to have the lowest cap hit in year 1 in recently executed big deals?
Wonder if NYG really need/want that relief this year if they may not be focused on any other big ticket free agents. Not saying that is the case, just thinking out loud. Also, some of the younger "core" guys like Barkley, Jones and Lawrence will be coming up soon so maybe they need the space in a few years moreso than now. Spitballing...
You can always roll that cap space from the smaller year 1 hit forward into the next year if the goal is to bank cap space for 2022, but one of the main reasons why the hit in the first year of a multi-year deal is lower is that the player receives his signing bonus that year (or the bulk of it, at least, depending on the structure), so a team can bury a low salary into that season without disrupting the player's true income for the year.
You can always just put a decent-sized guaranteed salary into year 1 and a big salary into year 2, and then convert most of that second year's salary to bonus when the time comes, which will effectively shift the low year into a subsequent season, but that would require the player to cooperate - he could potentially make things difficult if he wanted to try to get another bite at the apple, not to mention the fact that the signing bonus dead money is often the player's best assurance of receiving non-guaranteed salaries down the line.
And if a team were to frontload a contract too aggressively, they'd be inviting a holdout once the player has received the bulk of his money and has nothing but cheap year(s) ahead.
Waiting on pins and needles to see this deal...
Spending 20 million on o DL on a bad team doesn’t make much sense. There are TO many other holes to fill.
Quote:
for a second year?
Tagging him doesn't necessarily mean he plays on the tag in 2021. More often than not, tagged players wind up negotiating a longterm deal before training camp, and oftentimes it is negotiated before the start of free agency (as the deadline for tagging players occurs before its start). But the tag will keep him from entering the free market and force him to negotiate a "reasonable" deal or risk serious injury playing another year on it. Playing on the tag was advantageous for Williams in 2020 but he may not want to press his luck with $50-$60M in guaranteed money staring him in the face. If I had to choose between a one-year $19.4M contract and a 5-year $100M deal with $50-$60M guaranteed, I know which I would choose.
Which would you choose?
Which would you choose?
The $50-$60M guaranteed (but I probably would've done the same last year when doing the opposite worked out pretty well for Williams).
Quote:
Playing on the tag was advantageous for Williams in 2020 but he may not want to press his luck with $50-$60M in guaranteed money staring him in the face. If I had to choose between a one-year $19.4M contract and a 5-year $100M deal with $50-$60M guaranteed, I know which I would choose.
Which would you choose?
The $50-$60M guaranteed (but I probably would've done the same last year when doing the opposite worked out pretty well for Williams).
Wait a minute...you're suggesting the Giants take advantage of the franchise tag to force Williams take $20M per year approx $55M guaranteed contract?
That's the benefit of the tag?
As to those support money being spent elsewhere given “all our holes,” who are you going to get, who is 26-27, still in their prime, in the top 3-4 (or better) at their position who won’t cost at or near what LW will eventually cost.
Sign him, fill in areas with 2nd tier players and continue building through the draft. This is not rocket science
As to those support money being spent elsewhere given “all our holes,” who are you going to get, who is 26-27, still in their prime, in the top 3-4 (or better) at their position who won’t cost at or near what LW will eventually cost.
Sign him, fill in areas with 2nd tier players and continue building through the draft. This is not rocket science
Don't kid yourself...it certainly doesn't help them from being more flexible and/or pursuing some guys they otherwise would like to be in the bidding for.
Agree with your last sentence though, that seems like what they have to do if they are hell bent on putting LW under a big deal.
Yeah, he bet on himself and won. What’s so confusing about all this?
It was a fait accompli, right? I recall that Gettleman and Team LW apparently had a gentlemen's agreement in place and the deal would get done quickly. Hmmmm.
The options are pretty simple in my mind...
-- Tag LW again and make him approve it again.
-- Tag and try to trade him.
-- Let LW hit the open market, let a team over-pay, and
use that money for more significant needs - the
offense.
Without knowing how much he’d actually sign for its hard to gauge. I’m fine with a long term deal but the Tag is enticing, especially since there’s really no one else worth using it on this year. I wouldn’t let him walk though, tag him if it gets to that.
Without knowing how much he’d actually sign for its hard to gauge. I’m fine with a long term deal but the Tag is enticing, especially since there’s really no one else worth using it on this year. I wouldn’t let him walk though, tag him if it gets to that.
LW has had one good year, and you want to make him one of the highest paid DL in football. NO NO, and NO. To many holes to fill, and with him, or without him they are still a bad football team.
Quote:
the downside is that hurts our 2021 flexibility but who knows with whatever surprise cuts might be looming.
Without knowing how much he’d actually sign for its hard to gauge. I’m fine with a long term deal but the Tag is enticing, especially since there’s really no one else worth using it on this year. I wouldn’t let him walk though, tag him if it gets to that.
LW has had one good year, and you want to make him one of the highest paid DL in football. NO NO, and NO. To many holes to fill, and with him, or without him they are still a bad football team.
He hasn’t had 1 good year. He’s had a good career and just now started getting the sacks. Why? You say it’s because he’s going to get paid, I say it’s because he’s on a better line than he was with the Jets and our superiors overage gave him that extra time he never had to close.
Will he pack it in after getting paid? I don’t know, I don’t worry about that stuff because it’s a coin flip and can be applied to just about any player that isn’t a QB.
So, what's your point? OR, don't you even have one... again
Quote:
deal that I read about shortly after trading for him in Oct 2019 sure got away from us quick, huh?
So, what's your point? OR, don't you even have one... again
It should be self-explanatory. Maybe read it again...
I think the tag a 2nd year, at this point, is the worst for both sides. For the Giants it applies 100% to the cap this year, which is a lot given the needs that still exist, including others we want to re-sign. From Williams' perspective, that requires betting on himself again, which means he not only has to produce, but has to stay healthy. Then again, that gives him 2 years of nearly $40M in guaranteed money (last year and this year).
How would something like a 4 year/$70M deal work for both sides, with $40M guaranteed? Maybe go as high as $75M. This still allows for a lot of guaranteed money at a low average salary. Pre-rated, it is more guaranteed money against the number of years when comparing to a 5 year deal at $50 guaranteed. To me, this is still more than fair to him, and a little better for the Giants with 1 less year.
I just still have the burning question, which is how strongly do you feel about receiving the same level of production? I don't think it is likely, but it is necessary to back up a deal. You can't even say he needs to get paid for his past production, because he just received over $18M last year. That paid for his production. The next deal is all about what he will do going forward. I get his perspective, as it is either his last NFL contract, or at the very least it is his last big NFL contract. But, I don't think enough people see the Giants perspective.
A lot of athletes get paid for past production. This is not the case here. He played on his rookie deal and was OK with only 1 really good year. Then the Giants tagged him, which paid him a ton of money and he earned every penny of it. But, that means the next deal has nothing to make up for. It should be about speculating what we will receive from him moving forward. The 1 year of guaranteed money he received this past year is a big reason I would advocate for a 3-4 year deal, and up the percentage of guaranteed money to make it more appealing to him. That may be the only way to make it work for both sides.
The reality is, a 5 year deal means he probably couldn't be cut until 3 more years, but that leaves a lot more dead cap space, especially if it is a back loaded deal. I'm deeply concerned about what this deal would look like in 3 or more years from now. If we were a SB ready team, I might be more inclined to pull the trigger. But, we aren't and I'm not just not convinced we will continue to get such a high level as we add more talent. Again, I reiterate that this past year was far beyond anything he produced before. And the only other big year he had was a few years ago.
Quote:
In comment 15158096 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
deal that I read about shortly after trading for him in Oct 2019 sure got away from us quick, huh?
So, what's your point? OR, don't you even have one... again
It should be self-explanatory. Maybe read it again...
yeah I don't think so. More brain cells are destroyed as a result of reading your posts than from sniffing glue.