his value has to be lower then when we moved him. He is paid a ton, hasnt done anything to show teams he can stay healthy and honestly hasnt really progressed his game. Some team would still take a shot of course and i wouldnt be shocked if they did just as well as we did (salary relief if they wanted it, a bust former lottery pick and a couple firsts) but they def wouldnt do much better then we did.
I don't think I would trade back those 2 first rounders for KP. It's not even the picks or the assets it's more KP's value and that max deal. I am all but convinced this current regime will find someone to take a max deal and sooner rather than later. KP can go fuck himself into obscurity. Glad I am being proven wrong on this trade.
Did the Knicks really give up a lot? I never understood that narrative...
They gave up a ton. Wilson Chandler, Danilo Gallinari, Raymond Felton, Timofy Mozgov (who was later flipped for a #1 pick). Plus two draft picks that turned into Dario Saric and Jamal Murray.
None of those guys are/were superstars, but they were complementary talent that was sorely needed around Carmelo. If he had waited 4 months they could have kept all of that and perhaps even packaged some of it for another star.
So, yes: I blame Carmelo.
not the moron GM and jackass owner that made the deal?
Nobody put a gun to their heads.
Oh yes, I blame them the most. This and many similar moves buried the team for 20 years. But I don’t absolve Carmelo. He made a decision to Max his income, which is fine. But by forcing the trade he stripped the team from the ability to build a winner. Carmelo, both in negotiations and in play on the floor is a selfish player. Winning is secondary.
Since when is Tim Hardaway "a really good shooter"??
last year and is over 40% this year. And does it on a high volume (over 7 attempts a game). I always liked THJR, his biggest crime is he got grossly overpaid, not his fault. He isnt a great nba player or anything, but he is a solid rotation guy who got overpaid to the point where everyone hated him, haha. Id sure as hell much rather him then Bullock (not factoring in the $$).
I realize you despise him Hreg but take the goggles off for a second. Over 40% from 3 the past 2 seasons is very good shooting. How many guys in the Knick rotation would you prefer taking the open 3 right now when Randle kicks it out to them late? Bullock? RJ? Payton. The only 3point shooters on the roster that even compare to him right now are Quickly or maybe Burks.
Never would have seen that coming. So inconsistent.
Three biggest factors:
1) He significantly reduced the number of contested shots he’s taking.
2) He prioritizes getting to the spots he’s most effective from.
3) Luka Doncic. He draws the defense to him in the lane and then finds Hardaway for open shots.
#3 is almost certainly the biggest factor, as it leads to Hardaway doing the first 2. The Knicks never had that for him.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Not saying I blame him either!
Did the Knicks really give up a lot? I never understood that narrative...
They gave up a ton. Wilson Chandler, Danilo Gallinari, Raymond Felton, Timofy Mozgov (who was later flipped for a #1 pick). Plus two draft picks that turned into Dario Saric and Jamal Murray.
None of those guys are/were superstars, but they were complementary talent that was sorely needed around Carmelo. If he had waited 4 months they could have kept all of that and perhaps even packaged some of it for another star.
So, yes: I blame Carmelo.
not the moron GM and jackass owner that made the deal?
Nobody put a gun to their heads.
Oh yes, I blame them the most. This and many similar moves buried the team for 20 years. But I don’t absolve Carmelo. He made a decision to Max his income, which is fine. But by forcing the trade he stripped the team from the ability to build a winner. Carmelo, both in negotiations and in play on the floor is a selfish player. Winning is secondary.
Melo didn't decide what or how many players were going back in the deal. Walsh/Dolan could have negotiated a better deal - and the team could have done a better job building around Melo going forward.
I don't follow Dallas at all, so I didn't know he suddenly has become a significantly better shooter than he ever was for the Knicks. Don't know why anyone would have expected that to happen, though, since he was worthless his entire career prior to last season.
The Knicks traded Wilson Chandler, Raymond Felton, Danilo Gallinari, Timofey Mozgov, a 2014 first-round pick and the swap rights in 2016.
- There really was no shot of him coming to the Knicks in free agency. If the Knicks didn't trade for him he was going to be traded to the Lakers or Nets and would sign a extension there. With the lockout coming he was not waiting to free agency.
- The Knicks fatal mistakes in the Melo era was not using the amnesty on Amare, the Bargnani trade and not being prepared to trade for CP3 ( who wanted to come to the Knicks).
Tell me how the package they sent out was an overpay? I just don't understand the narrative that the Melo trade broke up the 1970 Knicks. It would have been nice not to include the 1st round pick but you were trading for an all nba player in his prime.
I would recommend listening to Melo on Wojs podcast. Some really good insight.
This year and going forward putting any bias aside, who'd you rather have on your team Porzi or Randle?
Honestly for me talent wise if I feel I can compete for a title it would probably be Porzi. However if I'm the Knicks I'd say Randle. Porzi more semelessly fits in with a true alpha teammate like Luka. However his body will not age well at all. I think Randle has more top level type years in him and at this moment is a better all around player who you can count on to show up every night.
This year and going forward putting any bias aside, who'd you rather have on your team Porzi or Randle?
Honestly for me talent wise if I feel I can compete for a title it would probably be Porzi. However if I'm the Knicks I'd say Randle. Porzi more semelessly fits in with a true alpha teammate like Luka. However his body will not age well at all. I think Randle has more top level type years in him and at this moment is a better all around player who you can count on to show up every night.
KP's injuries make it an easy call for Randle. And this is from someone who hated (and still hates) the KP trade...and was looking to dump Randle for peanuts this past offseason. If Randle's 3 point shooting ability is a real thing going forward, this tips in his favor even more.
Randle is a top 2 player on a title contender, and I thought KP could be but... he's moving like a robot so far this year. Absolute best case, further from injury, etc I still think KP likely has more absolute upside but far, far, far less sure of that than I used to be.
and you dont think twice, now you have to find Randle's running mate, is it Rj? can Quickley develop into that? i hope so but more than likely that player is not on the team yet
and you dont think twice, now you have to find Randle's running mate, is it Rj? can Quickley develop into that? i hope so but more than likely that player is not on the team yet
Nothing against either player but a Randle/Barrett headlined team isn't competing for an NBA title without it being a 1 in 50 season where the Mavs had 4-5 BIG player who melded perfectly. I like both players but it's just not realistic.
and you dont think twice, now you have to find Randle's running mate, is it Rj? can Quickley develop into that? i hope so but more than likely that player is not on the team yet
Nothing against either player but a Randle/Barrett headlined team isn't competing for an NBA title without it being a 1 in 50 season where the Mavs had 4-5 BIG player who melded perfectly. I like both players but it's just not realistic.
agree with you 100%, i dont think the running mate is on the team yet..
The idea of KP is much better than the reality. He's only going to get slower and more injury-prone as he gets older.
This is the crux of it. He was a Unicorn. Without that athleticism he's not the special talent he was. His defense, especially has suffered. In terms of guys who will likely age into their 30s, Randle is a lot better bet at this point.
Not to mention the personality difference. It's nearly impossible to imagine KP taking on the leadership and burden that Randle has. At least, I haven't seen that level of character from him yet. The response that Randle had coming off that bad 19-20 season is really impressive. Responding as he has to the challenges Thibs has laid out for him is really impressive. He just doesn't have the sense of entitlement you always got from KP.
That said, we'll take KP back for DET 2nd rounder.
gives him away i dont want him at this point. Id rather hold onto assets then go with him. Does he make us better, sure, but how much better? If Houston wants Knox or Frank and a second then sure, haha, but im guessing they want more.
If we arent in the Lavine/Beal range id just like a shooter like Redick, who wont cost much.
even in the few years KP has been in the league. His potential as a "stretch five" is what made him a unicorn, but now everyone is shooting threes and a lot of teams don't even play with traditional centers, so it's just another guy jacking up 25 footers.
gives him away i dont want him at this point. Id rather hold onto assets then go with him. Does he make us better, sure, but how much better? If Houston wants Knox or Frank and a second then sure, haha, but im guessing they want more.
If we arent in the Lavine/Beal range id just like a shooter like Redick, who wont cost much.
Oladipo is a free agent and doubtful he resigns with Houston, they are not gettinf much
Mavs game I saw, KP looked better than he did in the tweet showing him struggling against a small ball offense. Even being more mobile, he is still more of a defensive liability than Randle on everything but weakside shot blocking. In the West, I think every team above the Mavs in the standings has a mobile big man (C/PF) who are going to give him fits in a playoff series. The exception might be Portland if they don't get Nurkic back soon.
But according to Randle on the JJ podcast, he aaid Wes came to him and basically asked him what type of coach does he need to reach his potential and basically described Thibs..
Now this is positive because it shows the aknocks wanted to get Randle right and playing to his best ball and were invested in him..
but if they were that invested in him why draft toppin?
and their mother said "let's see Oladipo next season"... next season is here... 40% from the field (below his career mark) 29.9% from 3 (below his career mark), 14.6 PER (below his career mark), .036 WS/48 (below his career mark) and yet again injury prone. He will be 29 in May. He'd be a horrible player to throw a monster deal at in my opinion.
frank, knox, and bullock and a 2nd to grt him i would do it, see hoe he meshes and hoe he plays down the stretch, if he plays well sign him, if he doesnt let him walk
frank, knox, and bullock and a 2nd to grt him i would do it, see hoe he meshes and hoe he plays down the stretch, if he plays well sign him, if he doesnt let him walk
Sure, if Houston wants to give him away for players I don't care to see on the 2022 Knicks as a "try-out" then I guess it's fine but... this is a guy who hasn't played even 50 games since the 2017-2018 season
They didn’t get in on the three team deal involving Oladipo because they do want to sign him this summer and are considered the front runners by people in the league for him and or Dinwiddie. They won’t give up assets for Oladipo though, and I’d be shocked if he got more than a one year prove it deal around 15-20 mil with an option.
Keep an eye on Trey Murphy from UVA in this years draft. They’ve been scouting him heavily
They didn’t get in on the three team deal involving Oladipo because they do want to sign him this summer and are considered the front runners by people in the league for him and or Dinwiddie. They won’t give up assets for Oladipo though, and I’d be shocked if he got more than a one year prove it deal around 15-20 mil with an option.
Keep an eye on Trey Murphy from UVA in this years draft. They’ve been scouting him heavily
If that's all he gets, then it will be one of the biggest blunders in NBA history. He reportedly turned down 113 million before being traded.
They didn’t get in on the three team deal involving Oladipo because they do want to sign him this summer and are considered the front runners by people in the league for him and or Dinwiddie. They won’t give up assets for Oladipo though, and I’d be shocked if he got more than a one year prove it deal around 15-20 mil with an option.
Keep an eye on Trey Murphy from UVA in this years draft. They’ve been scouting him heavily
If that's all he gets, then it will be one of the biggest blunders in NBA history. He reportedly turned down 113 million before being traded.
Things could change and it only takes one but the handful of teams I’ve asked about him say pretty much that same thing.
They didn’t get in on the three team deal involving Oladipo because they do want to sign him this summer and are considered the front runners by people in the league for him and or Dinwiddie. They won’t give up assets for Oladipo though, and I’d be shocked if he got more than a one year prove it deal around 15-20 mil with an option.
Keep an eye on Trey Murphy from UVA in this years draft. They’ve been scouting him heavily
So far as I know, Trey Murphy isn't going to enter this year's draft. He's a late bloomer as a player and he's still really skinny.
Sam Hauser likely will, though, and he is a damned good shooter
They didn’t get in on the three team deal involving Oladipo because they do want to sign him this summer and are considered the front runners by people in the league for him and or Dinwiddie. They won’t give up assets for Oladipo though, and I’d be shocked if he got more than a one year prove it deal around 15-20 mil with an option.
Keep an eye on Trey Murphy from UVA in this years draft. They’ve been scouting him heavily
So far as I know, Trey Murphy isn't going to enter this year's draft. He's a late bloomer as a player and he's still really skinny.
He’s gone barring a disastrous close to the season. The league loves him and could end up as a late first rounder.
Good player, yes, but his shooting is a flaw. Doesn't have the classic J in his arsenal.
They're all about spacing and making 3s, and you have to give him that he's shooting incredibly well from 3 this year.
. He'd fit right in, but as a secondary player, not a #2 type guy.
I don't think I would trade back those 2 first rounders for KP. It's not even the picks or the assets it's more KP's value and that max deal. I am all but convinced this current regime will find someone to take a max deal and sooner rather than later. KP can go fuck himself into obscurity. Glad I am being proven wrong on this trade.
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In comment 15158848 TyreeHelmet said:
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Did the Knicks really give up a lot? I never understood that narrative...
They gave up a ton. Wilson Chandler, Danilo Gallinari, Raymond Felton, Timofy Mozgov (who was later flipped for a #1 pick). Plus two draft picks that turned into Dario Saric and Jamal Murray.
None of those guys are/were superstars, but they were complementary talent that was sorely needed around Carmelo. If he had waited 4 months they could have kept all of that and perhaps even packaged some of it for another star.
So, yes: I blame Carmelo.
not the moron GM and jackass owner that made the deal?
Nobody put a gun to their heads.
Oh yes, I blame them the most. This and many similar moves buried the team for 20 years. But I don’t absolve Carmelo. He made a decision to Max his income, which is fine. But by forcing the trade he stripped the team from the ability to build a winner. Carmelo, both in negotiations and in play on the floor is a selfish player. Winning is secondary.
People need to stop with this narrative if Melo waited they could of just added him into cap space
Since he went to Dallas, he's been ok.
I realize you despise him Hreg but take the goggles off for a second. Over 40% from 3 the past 2 seasons is very good shooting. How many guys in the Knick rotation would you prefer taking the open 3 right now when Randle kicks it out to them late? Bullock? RJ? Payton. The only 3point shooters on the roster that even compare to him right now are Quickly or maybe Burks.
Three biggest factors:
1) He significantly reduced the number of contested shots he’s taking.
2) He prioritizes getting to the spots he’s most effective from.
3) Luka Doncic. He draws the defense to him in the lane and then finds Hardaway for open shots.
#3 is almost certainly the biggest factor, as it leads to Hardaway doing the first 2. The Knicks never had that for him.
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In comment 15159086 Jim in Fairfax said:
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In comment 15158848 TyreeHelmet said:
Quote:
Did the Knicks really give up a lot? I never understood that narrative...
They gave up a ton. Wilson Chandler, Danilo Gallinari, Raymond Felton, Timofy Mozgov (who was later flipped for a #1 pick). Plus two draft picks that turned into Dario Saric and Jamal Murray.
None of those guys are/were superstars, but they were complementary talent that was sorely needed around Carmelo. If he had waited 4 months they could have kept all of that and perhaps even packaged some of it for another star.
So, yes: I blame Carmelo.
not the moron GM and jackass owner that made the deal?
Nobody put a gun to their heads.
Oh yes, I blame them the most. This and many similar moves buried the team for 20 years. But I don’t absolve Carmelo. He made a decision to Max his income, which is fine. But by forcing the trade he stripped the team from the ability to build a winner. Carmelo, both in negotiations and in play on the floor is a selfish player. Winning is secondary.
Melo didn't decide what or how many players were going back in the deal. Walsh/Dolan could have negotiated a better deal - and the team could have done a better job building around Melo going forward.
- There really was no shot of him coming to the Knicks in free agency. If the Knicks didn't trade for him he was going to be traded to the Lakers or Nets and would sign a extension there. With the lockout coming he was not waiting to free agency.
- The Knicks fatal mistakes in the Melo era was not using the amnesty on Amare, the Bargnani trade and not being prepared to trade for CP3 ( who wanted to come to the Knicks).
Tell me how the package they sent out was an overpay? I just don't understand the narrative that the Melo trade broke up the 1970 Knicks. It would have been nice not to include the 1st round pick but you were trading for an all nba player in his prime.
I would recommend listening to Melo on Wojs podcast. Some really good insight.
Trade to the Sixers?
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Lowry could have a MAJOR impact on the title picture
Trade to the Sixers?
The rumor is both the Sixers and LAC have "spoken" to Toroto but Toronto is hesitant to blow it up
Honestly for me talent wise if I feel I can compete for a title it would probably be Porzi. However if I'm the Knicks I'd say Randle. Porzi more semelessly fits in with a true alpha teammate like Luka. However his body will not age well at all. I think Randle has more top level type years in him and at this moment is a better all around player who you can count on to show up every night.
Honestly for me talent wise if I feel I can compete for a title it would probably be Porzi. However if I'm the Knicks I'd say Randle. Porzi more semelessly fits in with a true alpha teammate like Luka. However his body will not age well at all. I think Randle has more top level type years in him and at this moment is a better all around player who you can count on to show up every night.
KP's injuries make it an easy call for Randle. And this is from someone who hated (and still hates) the KP trade...and was looking to dump Randle for peanuts this past offseason. If Randle's 3 point shooting ability is a real thing going forward, this tips in his favor even more.
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What can Cuban say? They just recently gave him a ton of $.
Nothing against either player but a Randle/Barrett headlined team isn't competing for an NBA title without it being a 1 in 50 season where the Mavs had 4-5 BIG player who melded perfectly. I like both players but it's just not realistic.
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and you dont think twice, now you have to find Randle's running mate, is it Rj? can Quickley develop into that? i hope so but more than likely that player is not on the team yet
Nothing against either player but a Randle/Barrett headlined team isn't competing for an NBA title without it being a 1 in 50 season where the Mavs had 4-5 BIG player who melded perfectly. I like both players but it's just not realistic.
agree with you 100%, i dont think the running mate is on the team yet..
Im expecting them to add a shooting guard, i dont know who bit i expect them to do it by the deadline..
This is the crux of it. He was a Unicorn. Without that athleticism he's not the special talent he was. His defense, especially has suffered. In terms of guys who will likely age into their 30s, Randle is a lot better bet at this point.
Not to mention the personality difference. It's nearly impossible to imagine KP taking on the leadership and burden that Randle has. At least, I haven't seen that level of character from him yet. The response that Randle had coming off that bad 19-20 season is really impressive. Responding as he has to the challenges Thibs has laid out for him is really impressive. He just doesn't have the sense of entitlement you always got from KP.
That said, we'll take KP back for DET 2nd rounder.
If we arent in the Lavine/Beal range id just like a shooter like Redick, who wont cost much.
I think Timmy's a FA this summer, too. We're getting the band back together.
If we arent in the Lavine/Beal range id just like a shooter like Redick, who wont cost much.
Oladipo is a free agent and doubtful he resigns with Houston, they are not gettinf much
Now this is positive because it shows the aknocks wanted to get Randle right and playing to his best ball and were invested in him..
but if they were that invested in him why draft toppin?
Sure, if Houston wants to give him away for players I don't care to see on the 2022 Knicks as a "try-out" then I guess it's fine but... this is a guy who hasn't played even 50 games since the 2017-2018 season
Keep an eye on Trey Murphy from UVA in this years draft. They’ve been scouting him heavily
Keep an eye on Trey Murphy from UVA in this years draft. They’ve been scouting him heavily
If that's all he gets, then it will be one of the biggest blunders in NBA history. He reportedly turned down 113 million before being traded.
Quote:
They didn’t get in on the three team deal involving Oladipo because they do want to sign him this summer and are considered the front runners by people in the league for him and or Dinwiddie. They won’t give up assets for Oladipo though, and I’d be shocked if he got more than a one year prove it deal around 15-20 mil with an option.
Keep an eye on Trey Murphy from UVA in this years draft. They’ve been scouting him heavily
If that's all he gets, then it will be one of the biggest blunders in NBA history. He reportedly turned down 113 million before being traded.
Things could change and it only takes one but the handful of teams I’ve asked about him say pretty much that same thing.
Keep an eye on Trey Murphy from UVA in this years draft. They’ve been scouting him heavily
So far as I know, Trey Murphy isn't going to enter this year's draft. He's a late bloomer as a player and he's still really skinny.
Quote:
They didn’t get in on the three team deal involving Oladipo because they do want to sign him this summer and are considered the front runners by people in the league for him and or Dinwiddie. They won’t give up assets for Oladipo though, and I’d be shocked if he got more than a one year prove it deal around 15-20 mil with an option.
Keep an eye on Trey Murphy from UVA in this years draft. They’ve been scouting him heavily
So far as I know, Trey Murphy isn't going to enter this year's draft. He's a late bloomer as a player and he's still really skinny.
He’s gone barring a disastrous close to the season. The league loves him and could end up as a late first rounder.