for display only
Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

SB second contract

Thegratefulhead : 2/22/2021 10:39 am
I would like to try to extend him now at a discount because we are signing to second contract. IMHO a 2nd contract for SB is a forgone conclusion.
Article on SB second contract - ( New Window )
Pages: 1 2 3 <<Prev | Show All |
RE: The plan should be this...  
Jimmy Googs : 2/22/2021 5:09 pm : link
In comment 15158724 bw in dc said:
Quote:
Leave the current contract in place.

Let Barkley play out 2021.

If he returns to his 2018/19 form, and it's a positive 2021 campaign, look to trade SB next offseason. It's the ideal outcome and SB should be at his highest market value.

If he's struggles with production/injuries, then you need to consider either cutting him or maybe trading him next offseason. Take the cap hit and move on.

Essentially l don't like any idea of keeping him past 2021. We can find other cheaper solutions at RB.


I tend to agree this is most suitable. Difficult to imagine a 1st round pick coming back as posted above though.

Would think a #2, maybe...
RE: RE: RE: Thegratefulhead...  
Thegratefulhead : 2/22/2021 5:27 pm : link
In comment 15158915 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 15158856 Thegratefulhead said:


Quote:


In comment 15158782 bw in dc said:


Quote:


I get your point for sure. You are taking into account the Mara factor - which he said in the State of the Union that he expects SB to be here for a “very long time” - and building that into your assessment. And how to best manage those circumstances going forward.

Naturally, I can’t accept those conditions so I feel compelled to discuss what a well managed team would do... ; )


It is not just what he said, it is what they have done in the past as a franchise. Barkley is catnip to Mara. Team first, hard working, lead by example superstar that sells merchandise and puts fannies in the seats(when we return). I own my business, Football a business, we can never forget that.

I wish we did not draft him based on everything that has happened since. The ROI has been abysmal. That said, I would wager we resign him. I would also wager that he has a great year in 2021. SO that is where I am. Trying to minimize the inevitable.



Almost shocking posts like these can survive without being shouted down from rooftops.

Where are the defenders of All-Things Giants...asleep at the switch or have they finally seen the light on the RB value proposition?
We are having a reasonable discussion, why troll people? My guess as to why, I don't call the Giants, DG or the fans that support their decisions stupid. I chose not to use words that invite a hostile reply. When replying to people in the thread that disagreed with my OP, I recognize their points and do not dismiss them. I accept other people's views as valid and leave open the option of changing my mind. Just like when I speak to people, I listen to them instead of waiting for my turn to speak. There is a subtle difference.

/off soapbox
Well said  
Jimmy Googs : 2/22/2021 5:45 pm : link
grateful head...
GH, I think you really have to see what he brings  
montanagiant : 2/22/2021 6:04 pm : link
In an uninjured season. We extend him now and we run a serious risk if he gets injured again.
Barkley could run...  
bw in dc : 2/22/2021 6:42 pm : link
for 2K next year, catch 100 passes for 1K yards and score 20 TDs. And we win the Super Bowl. Yet, I would still advocate that we don't re-sign Barkley.

Because I would still believe the following prevails:

-- A RB's expiration date starts around year five.
-- RB's are one of the most fungible position in football.
-- RBBC makes more sense in today's NFL.
-- The ROI on a big contract for a RB is prohibitive.
-- If Jones is the solution at QB, there is even less reason to re-sign SB.
RE: At this point  
FStubbs : 2/22/2021 10:04 pm : link
In comment 15158681 Rudy5757 said:
Quote:
He hasnt earned the 2nd contract at Market value. I think it would benefit both sides to wait. I dodnt want to draft a RB 2nd overall in the 1st place but now after 3 seasons it looks like a horrible pick. He had a very good rookie season followed by average and then a few bad games into his 3rd season a major injury. He will not be 100% this season so he will probably have another avgerage season at best. Im sorry, but as much as I like the kids attitude hes not a top 5 back at this point and may never be.

His pass blocking may be some of the worst I have seen. He lacks the desire for contact in blocking as well as running. thats a bad thing for a RB coming off injury. The man has all the talent in the world but his problem is in his head and Im not sure that can be fixed. I would look to draft a RB in the 3rd round or later and hope for the best. maybe even a cluster draft like we did at LB abd have several guys fill the need. I dont see SB as the guy we drafted unfortunately. great kid, great talent but doesnt seem like a football player. maybe im worng but until he shows a willingness for contact he's not a guy I can count on in a big spot.


I said this before, and while it may sound insane, Barkley - unless he changes his approach to the game - really isn't a RB. Using him as one with his poor pass blocking and boom or bust running style that can't consistently move the chains loses you ball games. I became even more convinced of this when watching the old videos from the 80s people have been posting and seeing Joe Morris play. It was a different game back then, but Morris was a better RB than Barkley has been. It's not even close.

Barkley is a guy who you scheme to get out into space where his gifts become an asset. I don't know if you'd call him a gadget player, a RB/WR, H-back, or what, but that's what he is.

I think this is why we'd see Shurmur limit Barkley's carries and we'd wonder why. He was a lousy head coach but he knows offense and I think he kind of realized this.

So is Barkley talented? Absolutely. But he's not a guy you break the bank for.
RE: RE: The plan should be this...  
FStubbs : 2/22/2021 10:06 pm : link
In comment 15158920 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 15158724 bw in dc said:


Quote:


Leave the current contract in place.

Let Barkley play out 2021.

If he returns to his 2018/19 form, and it's a positive 2021 campaign, look to trade SB next offseason. It's the ideal outcome and SB should be at his highest market value.

If he's struggles with production/injuries, then you need to consider either cutting him or maybe trading him next offseason. Take the cap hit and move on.

Essentially l don't like any idea of keeping him past 2021. We can find other cheaper solutions at RB.



I tend to agree this is most suitable. Difficult to imagine a 1st round pick coming back as posted above though.

Would think a #2, maybe...


I doubt we'd even get a 2nd rounder. The other 31 teams in the league don't have Gettleman as GM.
I agree with FStubbs  
Go Terps : 2/22/2021 10:45 pm : link
I think if you want a comp for Barkley, it's probably something like Reggie Bush.
Saquon = Reggie Bush?  
cosmicj : 2/23/2021 7:29 am : link
.
Ha I read literally every post till Terps’ last one!  
cosmicj : 2/23/2021 7:36 am : link
Ok, so I think Barkley is a better player than Bush. Given what he is, the coaches need to find a way for Barkley to make this offense more dynamic. Take it as a coaching challenge.

More John Mara bashing: I know I keep going on about how Mara is a fool. Case in point, assuring that SB will be on the team for a long time in public. That was a cringe worthy moronic statement that adds to the case that he can’t think two moves ahead. A public statement like that puts DG in a weak position as he negotiates a deal with SB and it complicates Judges job if he wants to adjust SB’s role. Mara just weakened his team’s position and gained nothing for it.

That’s the epitome of stupidity = no gain but increased risk.
We've already seen much more from him than Bush  
Matt M. : 2/23/2021 8:57 am : link
If he's healthy, he absolutely has the talent to warrant a 2nd deal. BUT, that doesn't mean it's a good idea. I have always been a fan of drafting him. But, right now, I think bw's approach is the correct one. Even if healthy and putting up the numbers we want and expect, it doesn't change the fact that he's a RB through 4 years and already has 1 knee surgery. That's not a combination that warrants an investment. The odds are against it working out. That doesn't mean it woudln't. But, it also doesn't mean we should take the risk.

For me, the player was not the mistake. I think he has/had the talent to warrant the pick. The problem, to me, is that he was picked, it would seem, to fix the offense by himself and to warrant sticking with Eli. The problem with that is the OL remained one of the worst OLs in the league. That has made his pick a waste.
RE: Ha I read literally every post till Terps’ last one!  
Matt M. : 2/23/2021 8:58 am : link
In comment 15159175 cosmicj said:
Quote:
Ok, so I think Barkley is a better player than Bush. Given what he is, the coaches need to find a way for Barkley to make this offense more dynamic. Take it as a coaching challenge.

More John Mara bashing: I know I keep going on about how Mara is a fool. Case in point, assuring that SB will be on the team for a long time in public. That was a cringe worthy moronic statement that adds to the case that he can’t think two moves ahead. A public statement like that puts DG in a weak position as he negotiates a deal with SB and it complicates Judges job if he wants to adjust SB’s role. Mara just weakened his team’s position and gained nothing for it.

That’s the epitome of stupidity = no gain but increased risk.
Exactly right.
RE: RE: Ha I read literally every post till Terps’ last one!  
Jimmy Googs : 2/23/2021 9:08 am : link
In comment 15159236 Matt M. said:
Quote:
In comment 15159175 cosmicj said:


Quote:


Ok, so I think Barkley is a better player than Bush. Given what he is, the coaches need to find a way for Barkley to make this offense more dynamic. Take it as a coaching challenge.

More John Mara bashing: I know I keep going on about how Mara is a fool. Case in point, assuring that SB will be on the team for a long time in public. That was a cringe worthy moronic statement that adds to the case that he can’t think two moves ahead. A public statement like that puts DG in a weak position as he negotiates a deal with SB and it complicates Judges job if he wants to adjust SB’s role. Mara just weakened his team’s position and gained nothing for it.

That’s the epitome of stupidity = no gain but increased risk.

Exactly right.


Do you really think the statement puts DG in weaker negotiating position?

Nevertheless, what do you mean by it also complicates Judge's job, don't follow...

Two points I think are clear at this point  
JonC : 2/23/2021 9:16 am : link
You have to wait and see what SB is on the football field in 2021. He's got to demonstrate he can play football again, and at a level commensurate with an extension. They've got time to wait him out, and the overall value of his rookie will almost certainly be paid to him. He's also pocketing dollars pushing products, etc, in the NY TV area.

Also, to me it's clear there's no plan to trade him. Things can change, but unless DG is out and there's an unexpected sea change, he will remain a Giant.
most owners/GMs  
UConn4523 : 2/23/2021 9:17 am : link
say they want their 1st round picks on the team for a long time.

I'm picturing Barkley's agent playing a recording of Mara saying this in their meeting and following it up with "your move".

I'm not privy to NFL contract negotiations but they likely aren't far off from anything else you haggle over. If i'm only willing to pay X a soundbyte of something I said in the past isn't going to change my mind. Barkley can be tagged or traded, no one is forcing us to sign anyone long term.
Yes, I think the owner coming out and saying a player will be  
cosmicj : 2/23/2021 9:19 am : link
on the team in the future weakens the negotiating hand.

Re Judge, we all saw how Shurmur went away from SB when games were on the line. What if Judge decides SB isn't part of a winning formula? Suddenly, it's more than putting a prominent high pick on the bench, which is difficult enough. Now Judge has to be worry about the political relationship with the owner.

Mara's statement was an own goal. It makes me think he literally doesn't understand what is going on around him.
RE: Yes, I think the owner coming out and saying a player will be  
Jimmy Googs : 2/23/2021 9:44 am : link
In comment 15159262 cosmicj said:
Quote:
on the team in the future weakens the negotiating hand.

Re Judge, we all saw how Shurmur went away from SB when games were on the line. What if Judge decides SB isn't part of a winning formula? Suddenly, it's more than putting a prominent high pick on the bench, which is difficult enough. Now Judge has to be worry about the political relationship with the owner.

Mara's statement was an own goal. It makes me think he literally doesn't understand what is going on around him.


While not putting the NYG Front Office on a pedestal, it would be shocking if it weakened actual negotiations.

Also if Judge/Garrett change the offensive gameplan because its better to under-utilize Barkley then they need to produce the results. If they don't, then they will have much bigger problems than just dealing with how many snaps they should give Saquon to keep Mara happy.
RE: The plan should be this...  
ryanmkeane : 2/23/2021 12:12 pm : link
In comment 15158724 bw in dc said:
Quote:
Leave the current contract in place.

Let Barkley play out 2021.

If he returns to his 2018/19 form, and it's a positive 2021 campaign, look to trade SB next offseason.

So....if he returns to form as a top 3 running back in football, you'd like him off the team?
RE: Barkley could run...  
ryanmkeane : 2/23/2021 12:13 pm : link
In comment 15158982 bw in dc said:
Quote:
for 2K next year, catch 100 passes for 1K yards and score 20 TDs. And we win the Super Bowl. Yet, I would still advocate that we don't re-sign Barkley.


Good thing you aren't the GM
...  
ryanmkeane : 2/23/2021 12:20 pm : link
where you lose me is this thinking that you can just replace Barkley with X running back and get similar results. We've seen what Barkley can do as a player, not many in the NFL can do it. Saying things like "just trade him, RBs aren't valued that high and their expiration date is quicker" means that you must have an awesome replacement in mind right? We are talking about an elite talent at the position. You don't just replace him with Wayne Gallman and expect the same results, as we saw in 2020
RE: Two points I think are clear at this point  
Thegratefulhead : 2/23/2021 12:25 pm : link
In comment 15159256 JonC said:
Quote:
You have to wait and see what SB is on the football field in 2021. He's got to demonstrate he can play football again, and at a level commensurate with an extension. They've got time to wait him out, and the overall value of his rookie will almost certainly be paid to him. He's also pocketing dollars pushing products, etc, in the NY TV area.

Also, to me it's clear there's no plan to trade him. Things can change, but unless DG is out and there's an unexpected sea change, he will remain a Giant.
I believe that last paragraph wholeheartedly. It is why I would gamble now before he proves it on the field. It is the only chance for a discount. The OL is going to be better next year, they invested in the experience of their young players and it will pay dividends.

My OP is based on the premise that I strongly believe he his is going to exceed expectations for 2021. I do understand that my position is unrealistic with almost no comparable situation before. Has anyone ever been extended before they came back form injury? I think I remember one but I can't put a finger on it.




RE: ...  
Thegratefulhead : 2/23/2021 12:28 pm : link
In comment 15159528 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
where you lose me is this thinking that you can just replace Barkley with X running back and get similar results. We've seen what Barkley can do as a player, not many in the NFL can do it. Saying things like "just trade him, RBs aren't valued that high and their expiration date is quicker" means that you must have an awesome replacement in mind right? We are talking about an elite talent at the position. You don't just replace him with Wayne Gallman and expect the same results, as we saw in 2020
If I could play Grandmaster of time and trade Barkley for Bradshaw and Jacobs at the same age I would not think twice about it.
RE: Ha I read literally every post till Terps’ last one!  
Go Terps : 2/23/2021 12:35 pm : link
In comment 15159175 cosmicj said:
Quote:
Ok, so I think Barkley is a better player than Bush. Given what he is, the coaches need to find a way for Barkley to make this offense more dynamic. Take it as a coaching challenge.

More John Mara bashing: I know I keep going on about how Mara is a fool. Case in point, assuring that SB will be on the team for a long time in public. That was a cringe worthy moronic statement that adds to the case that he can’t think two moves ahead. A public statement like that puts DG in a weak position as he negotiates a deal with SB and it complicates Judges job if he wants to adjust SB’s role. Mara just weakened his team’s position and gained nothing for it.

That’s the epitome of stupidity = no gain but increased risk.


Mara is too much like his father. And Rozelle is not around to hire George Young to save us from the way the Maras do things.
RE: RE: Two points I think are clear at this point  
JonC : 2/23/2021 12:35 pm : link
In comment 15159533 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
In comment 15159256 JonC said:


Quote:


You have to wait and see what SB is on the football field in 2021. He's got to demonstrate he can play football again, and at a level commensurate with an extension. They've got time to wait him out, and the overall value of his rookie will almost certainly be paid to him. He's also pocketing dollars pushing products, etc, in the NY TV area.

Also, to me it's clear there's no plan to trade him. Things can change, but unless DG is out and there's an unexpected sea change, he will remain a Giant.

I believe that last paragraph wholeheartedly. It is why I would gamble now before he proves it on the field. It is the only chance for a discount. The OL is going to be better next year, they invested in the experience of their young players and it will pay dividends.

My OP is based on the premise that I strongly believe he his is going to exceed expectations for 2021. I do understand that my position is unrealistic with almost no comparable situation before. Has anyone ever been extended before they came back form injury? I think I remember one but I can't put a finger on it.





I follow your thought process, but don't see them committing let's say $40-50M to him before the knee is proven. If they stick with his rookie deal he earns north of $30M, I would consider that a sunk cost so he's set for life either way.
RE: RE: RE: Two points I think are clear at this point  
Thegratefulhead : 2/23/2021 1:03 pm : link
In comment 15159548 JonC said:
Quote:
In comment 15159533 Thegratefulhead said:


Quote:


In comment 15159256 JonC said:


Quote:


You have to wait and see what SB is on the football field in 2021. He's got to demonstrate he can play football again, and at a level commensurate with an extension. They've got time to wait him out, and the overall value of his rookie will almost certainly be paid to him. He's also pocketing dollars pushing products, etc, in the NY TV area.

Also, to me it's clear there's no plan to trade him. Things can change, but unless DG is out and there's an unexpected sea change, he will remain a Giant.

I believe that last paragraph wholeheartedly. It is why I would gamble now before he proves it on the field. It is the only chance for a discount. The OL is going to be better next year, they invested in the experience of their young players and it will pay dividends.

My OP is based on the premise that I strongly believe he his is going to exceed expectations for 2021. I do understand that my position is unrealistic with almost no comparable situation before. Has anyone ever been extended before they came back form injury? I think I remember one but I can't put a finger on it.







I follow your thought process, but don't see them committing let's say $40-50M to him before the knee is proven. If they stick with his rookie deal he earns north of $30M, I would consider that a sunk cost so he's set for life either way.
I know you are right.
RE: RE: RE: Thegratefulhead...  
santacruzom : 2/23/2021 2:19 pm : link
In comment 15158915 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:


Almost shocking posts like these can survive without being shouted down from rooftops.

Where are the defenders of All-Things Giants...asleep at the switch or have they finally seen the light on the RB value proposition?


Maybe they're still convened at their round table polishing off the remaining slices of Papa John's -- which they swear is good pizza with potential -- while listening to Matchbox 20, who they swear is a great band subjected to unfair criticism that we don't levy towards other bands.
RE: RE: RE: Ha I read literally every post till Terps’ last one!  
santacruzom : 2/23/2021 2:22 pm : link
In comment 15159244 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:


Do you really think the statement puts DG in weaker negotiating position?

Nevertheless, what do you mean by it also complicates Judge's job, don't follow...


I doubt it would materially weaken DG's ability at the negotiation table, but I don't think it's wise for owners to spout off what could sound an awful lot like a mandate.
RE: RE: The plan should be this...  
bw in dc : 2/23/2021 2:27 pm : link
In comment 15159512 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
In comment 15158724 bw in dc said:


Quote:


Leave the current contract in place.

Let Barkley play out 2021.

If he returns to his 2018/19 form, and it's a positive 2021 campaign, look to trade SB next offseason.


So....if he returns to form as a top 3 running back in football, you'd like him off the team?


For the money he'd demand, yes. It's just very likely the tipping point on the production curve is not far away. So why chance it? Trust the football actuarial tables...
RE: RE: Barkley could run...  
bw in dc : 2/23/2021 2:29 pm : link
In comment 15159513 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
In comment 15158982 bw in dc said:


Quote:


for 2K next year, catch 100 passes for 1K yards and score 20 TDs. And we win the Super Bowl. Yet, I would still advocate that we don't re-sign Barkley.




Good thing you aren't the GM


I doubt after the three years of the Gentlemen Era I could do worse... ;)
RE: RE: RE: Barkley could run...  
Thegratefulhead : 2/23/2021 3:28 pm : link
In comment 15159668 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15159513 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


In comment 15158982 bw in dc said:


Quote:


for 2K next year, catch 100 passes for 1K yards and score 20 TDs. And we win the Super Bowl. Yet, I would still advocate that we don't re-sign Barkley.




Good thing you aren't the GM



I doubt after the three years of the Gentlemen Era I could do worse... ;)
15-33 is not a very high bar to exceed.
It's not just going 15-33 over the last three years  
Go Terps : 2/23/2021 3:33 pm : link
It's that the roster is still thin with huge question marks in critical areas, and nothing special on hand in terms of resources (draft picks and cap space).

This organization is closer to initiating a new rebuild under Judge+new GM than it is to competing.

Had all the actions under the Gettleman tenure simple been determined by a random number generator it likely would have turned out better.
RE: It's not just going 15-33 over the last three years  
Thegratefulhead : 2/23/2021 3:40 pm : link
In comment 15159749 Go Terps said:
Quote:
It's that the roster is still thin with huge question marks in critical areas, and nothing special on hand in terms of resources (draft picks and cap space).

This organization is closer to initiating a new rebuild under Judge+new GM than it is to competing.

Had all the actions under the Gettleman tenure simple been determined by a random number generator it likely would have turned out better.
I agree with the first line and you start to lose me after.

I am about to wildly speculate.

Brass tax, DG stayed because Judge wanted him to. Not saying they gave him the power to hire whoever he wanted. I think they interviewed after the season and Judge said he worked well with DG.

I believe they they think they fixed the whole enchilada with Judge and are going to try to not to mess it up. I think they believe they hired they next Tomlin. We shall see.
RE: RE: RE: Barkley could run...  
Jimmy Googs : 2/23/2021 3:46 pm : link
In comment 15159668 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15159513 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


In comment 15158982 bw in dc said:


Quote:


for 2K next year, catch 100 passes for 1K yards and score 20 TDs. And we win the Super Bowl. Yet, I would still advocate that we don't re-sign Barkley.

Good thing you aren't the GM


I doubt after the three years of the Gentlemen Era I could do worse... ;)


The Gettleman Fan Club on BBI would convert over to the BW in DC Fan Club.

You and Fmic would be buddies...
grateful  
Go Terps : 2/23/2021 3:50 pm : link
I'd be pleasantly surprised if Judge has that much power this early. If he did, why is Garrett still the OC (a job it seems clear Judge wants to give to Kitchens)?

I just don't see evidence Mara changing the model the Giants have been using for decades. I think we're seeing a continuation of what's gone on in the past - the GM and head coach are on different tracks, and the blame for failure alternates between them. Shurmur caught the blame before, now it's Gettleman's turn. After Gettleman is replaced by Abrams (the inevitability of that statement is indicative of the dysfunction), the onus will be on Judge to perform.

I know Judge looks great, but he just went 6-10. If the Giants go 6-10 again (or worse) in 2021, he's probably going to be coaching for his job in 2022 and we'll be hearing about a new rebuild with Abrams and a new QB.
RE: grateful  
Thegratefulhead : 2/23/2021 3:56 pm : link
In comment 15159766 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I'd be pleasantly surprised if Judge has that much power this early. If he did, why is Garrett still the OC (a job it seems clear Judge wants to give to Kitchens)?

I just don't see evidence Mara changing the model the Giants have been using for decades. I think we're seeing a continuation of what's gone on in the past - the GM and head coach are on different tracks, and the blame for failure alternates between them. Shurmur caught the blame before, now it's Gettleman's turn. After Gettleman is replaced by Abrams (the inevitability of that statement is indicative of the dysfunction), the onus will be on Judge to perform.

I know Judge looks great, but he just went 6-10. If the Giants go 6-10 again (or worse) in 2021, he's probably going to be coaching for his job in 2022 and we'll be hearing about a new rebuild with Abrams and a new QB.
I tried to clarify. I don't they gave him power.

I think they believe they hired "the guy" in Judge. They think the 2 worked well together. I suspect they have some kind of exit interview after the season and Judge likely said the pairing worked.

My wild speculation is they are quite pleased with themselves by the Judge hire. I agree with 6-10. Judge said everything "I" wanted to hear. I am personally more interested in results.

I get a little nervous when people tell me exactly what I want to hear. I think the ownership loves it. It is my belief DG got his job by telling them exactly what they wanted to hear about the roster.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Barkley could run...  
bw in dc : 2/23/2021 4:20 pm : link
In comment 15159739 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:


15-33 is not a very high bar to exceed.


Well, among rational people, yes.

But there is a pretty loud group of posters who think that 15-33 is actually good considering the circumstances Gettleman inherited.

I read the excuses quite regularly...

-- Reese left a poor roster for DG.
-- Eli staying another year was more Mara, not DG.
-- DG selected a "generational player" with SB.
-- DG selected the right heir apparent with DJ.
-- DG has built a really good D.
-- DG now has the right pieces for the OL.
-- DG almost won a NFCE title this year.
-- Etc.

So when you understand all of this "context", it's actually a "good" 15-33.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Barkley could run...  
Matt M. : 2/23/2021 5:04 pm : link
In comment 15159808 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15159739 Thegratefulhead said:


Quote:




15-33 is not a very high bar to exceed.



Well, among rational people, yes.

But there is a pretty loud group of posters who think that 15-33 is actually good considering the circumstances Gettleman inherited.

I read the excuses quite regularly...

-- Reese left a poor roster for DG.
-- Eli staying another year was more Mara, not DG.
-- DG selected a "generational player" with SB.
-- DG selected the right heir apparent with DJ.
-- DG has built a really good D.
-- DG now has the right pieces for the OL.
-- DG almost won a NFCE title this year.
-- Etc.

So when you understand all of this "context", it's actually a "good" 15-33.
Even if you like some of Gettleman's moves, and you stick to the excuse that he inherited a terrible roster thanks to lack of serious planning by Reese, the results can't be defended. Not only do we have 15 wins in 3 years, but we still have a very problematic roster. In 3 years Gettleman has almost completely turned over the roster, yet we are still in the middle of a rebuild, we still have no depth at several positions, we still have mediocre to worse starters at several positions, and we still have huge question marks at several critical positions. I like Judge and I think he has the organization heading in the right direction. But, any future success is 100% dependent on a ridiculously successful off season this year. We must straighten out the OL once and for all. We must get a legit #1 WR. We must get a consistent pass rusher or two or 3. We must straighten out CB2 and we must get at least one LB not named Martinez to play at an impactful level. And, after all that, we have to be 100% correct about Jones. That's a Hell of a lot.
Some of you have unreasonable expectations. It's only been  
Jimmy Googs : 2/23/2021 5:25 pm : link
three years. And if you take off Year 1 because Gettleman was strong-armed into sticking with Eli its really only been two years.

And if you don't count sleeping, bathroom breaks, sitting in traffic, etc. its really probably only one year.

And how much can you really do in one year...
RE: grateful  
Sean : 2/23/2021 5:27 pm : link
In comment 15159766 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I'd be pleasantly surprised if Judge has that much power this early. If he did, why is Garrett still the OC (a job it seems clear Judge wants to give to Kitchens)?

I just don't see evidence Mara changing the model the Giants have been using for decades. I think we're seeing a continuation of what's gone on in the past - the GM and head coach are on different tracks, and the blame for failure alternates between them. Shurmur caught the blame before, now it's Gettleman's turn. After Gettleman is replaced by Abrams (the inevitability of that statement is indicative of the dysfunction), the onus will be on Judge to perform.

I know Judge looks great, but he just went 6-10. If the Giants go 6-10 again (or worse) in 2021, he's probably going to be coaching for his job in 2022 and we'll be hearing about a new rebuild with Abrams and a new QB.


Things really get complicated if the Giants have another 6 or below win season. Imo, they really need to be 9-7 at minimum. If they go 6-10 again, now Judge is coaching for his life in 2022 which is not ideal.

I’m sure Mara is banking on a 9+ win season, this allows multiple things:

1. It makes transitioning to Abrams a much easier sell.
2. It takes pressure off of Judge for 2022 and brings some much needed stability to the coaching staff.
3. Gettleman can say (for his ego) he got it turned around and go to Cape Cod.

Abrams being a cap guy would hopefully lead to an outside hire to focus on personnel, assistant GM. It would also put more emphasis on personnel on the coaching staff since that isn’t Abrams background.

I don’t think that is bad either, I can live with that. Things really get messy if it’s another <6 win season.
RE: Some of you have unreasonable expectations. It's only been  
Matt M. : 2/23/2021 5:28 pm : link
In comment 15159853 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
three years. And if you take off Year 1 because Gettleman was strong-armed into sticking with Eli its really only been two years.

And if you don't count sleeping, bathroom breaks, sitting in traffic, etc. its really probably only one year.

And how much can you really do in one year...
First off, he wasn't strong armed into anything. Second, as far as I'm concerned sticking with Eli wasn't the problem. Sticking with Eli behind the worst OL in the league was the problem. That is on the GM.
RE: RE: grateful  
Thegratefulhead : 2/23/2021 6:13 pm : link
In comment 15159858 Sean said:
Quote:
In comment 15159766 Go Terps said:


Quote:


I'd be pleasantly surprised if Judge has that much power this early. If he did, why is Garrett still the OC (a job it seems clear Judge wants to give to Kitchens)?

I just don't see evidence Mara changing the model the Giants have been using for decades. I think we're seeing a continuation of what's gone on in the past - the GM and head coach are on different tracks, and the blame for failure alternates between them. Shurmur caught the blame before, now it's Gettleman's turn. After Gettleman is replaced by Abrams (the inevitability of that statement is indicative of the dysfunction), the onus will be on Judge to perform.

I know Judge looks great, but he just went 6-10. If the Giants go 6-10 again (or worse) in 2021, he's probably going to be coaching for his job in 2022 and we'll be hearing about a new rebuild with Abrams and a new QB.



Things really get complicated if the Giants have another 6 or below win season. Imo, they really need to be 9-7 at minimum. If they go 6-10 again, now Judge is coaching for his life in 2022 which is not ideal.

I’m sure Mara is banking on a 9+ win season, this allows multiple things:

1. It makes transitioning to Abrams a much easier sell.
2. It takes pressure off of Judge for 2022 and brings some much needed stability to the coaching staff.
3. Gettleman can say (for his ego) he got it turned around and go to Cape Cod.

Abrams being a cap guy would hopefully lead to an outside hire to focus on personnel, assistant GM. It would also put more emphasis on personnel on the coaching staff since that isn’t Abrams background.

I don’t think that is bad either, I can live with that. Things really get messy if it’s another <6 win season.
I think we will be closer to 6 wins than 9. Much fell our way last year. Wentz/Pederson and injuries in Philly, Dak and injuries in Dallas, WFT shitshow at QB. We can't expect that next year. Our roster is thin. We need a FA home run and a draft that produces an impact player or it is going be a rough road.
Thegratefulhead  
Sean : 2/23/2021 6:25 pm : link
It needs to be better than that. It should not take this long to put together a team to win 9 games. This is a crappy division, another 6 win season is a disaster imo.
I expect to be worse defensively, and have worse health luck  
Go Terps : 2/23/2021 6:29 pm : link
I think the offense is going to have to be a lot better to get to 8-8. I think a slight improvement only gets us back to 6-10, and the same output could get us to 3 or 4 wins.

Not good.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Barkley could run...  
bw in dc : 2/23/2021 6:34 pm : link
In comment 15159839 Matt M. said:
Quote:
Even if you like some of Gettleman's moves, and you stick to the excuse that he inherited a terrible roster thanks to lack of serious planning by Reese, the results can't be defended. Not only do we have 15 wins in 3 years, but we still have a very problematic roster. In 3 years Gettleman has almost completely turned over the roster, yet we are still in the middle of a rebuild, we still have no depth at several positions, we still have mediocre to worse starters at several positions, and we still have huge question marks at several critical positions. I like Judge and I think he has the organization heading in the right direction. But, any future success is 100% dependent on a ridiculously successful off season this year. We must straighten out the OL once and for all. We must get a legit #1 WR. We must get a consistent pass rusher or two or 3. We must straighten out CB2 and we must get at least one LB not named Martinez to play at an impactful level. And, after all that, we have to be 100% correct about Jones. That's a Hell of a lot.


Good summary. Bottom line is we have a lot of holes to fill and still have a lot of question marks with the current roster.

-- Barkley returning from injury.
-- Jones figuring it out.
-- Do we really have any OL solutions to count on.
-- Engram's status.
-- Pass rush.
-- Is it really smart to re-sign LW.
-- Etc.

Team seems to have found two good coaches in Judge and Graham. But after that, what on this team inspires you as a fan?
RE: I expect to be worse defensively, and have worse health luck  
Sean : 2/23/2021 7:07 pm : link
In comment 15159894 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I think the offense is going to have to be a lot better to get to 8-8. I think a slight improvement only gets us back to 6-10, and the same output could get us to 3 or 4 wins.

Not good.


If that’s the case, Abrams cannot be the successor. Like you said, a draft simulation generated by a computer would yield better results.

2021 needs to be better, a big jump. If not, this has been a massive failure. I just see no way 6-10 again is acceptable. That would really tell me the Barkley, Jones & Thomas premium picks have not worked.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Barkley could run...  
Matt M. : 2/23/2021 7:44 pm : link
In comment 15159896 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15159839 Matt M. said:


Quote:


Even if you like some of Gettleman's moves, and you stick to the excuse that he inherited a terrible roster thanks to lack of serious planning by Reese, the results can't be defended. Not only do we have 15 wins in 3 years, but we still have a very problematic roster. In 3 years Gettleman has almost completely turned over the roster, yet we are still in the middle of a rebuild, we still have no depth at several positions, we still have mediocre to worse starters at several positions, and we still have huge question marks at several critical positions. I like Judge and I think he has the organization heading in the right direction. But, any future success is 100% dependent on a ridiculously successful off season this year. We must straighten out the OL once and for all. We must get a legit #1 WR. We must get a consistent pass rusher or two or 3. We must straighten out CB2 and we must get at least one LB not named Martinez to play at an impactful level. And, after all that, we have to be 100% correct about Jones. That's a Hell of a lot.



Good summary. Bottom line is we have a lot of holes to fill and still have a lot of question marks with the current roster.

-- Barkley returning from injury.
-- Jones figuring it out.
-- Do we really have any OL solutions to count on.
-- Engram's status.
-- Pass rush.
-- Is it really smart to re-sign LW.
-- Etc.

Team seems to have found two good coaches in Judge and Graham. But after that, what on this team inspires you as a fan?
IO think the staff as a whole is reason to feel good. This was a very well coached team.
RE: Some of you have unreasonable expectations. It's only been  
FStubbs : 2/24/2021 10:08 am : link
In comment 15159853 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
three years. And if you take off Year 1 because Gettleman was strong-armed into sticking with Eli its really only been two years.

And if you don't count sleeping, bathroom breaks, sitting in traffic, etc. its really probably only one year.

And how much can you really do in one year...


Here's the complicated thing.

Part of me thinks the drafting of Barkley was part of the decision to make one more run with Eli - by giving him the best weapon the team could get its hands on and rolling the dice.

If so, then Barkley should correctly be seen as a part of that wasted decision, not a part of where the Giants should be going.

That being said - it was Gettleman's decision still to stick with Eli. If it were an owner's mandate that he disagreed with, he could've simply declined the job. He owns it by agreeing to those terms - if that's what went down.
RE: ...  
FStubbs : 2/24/2021 10:10 am : link
In comment 15159528 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
where you lose me is this thinking that you can just replace Barkley with X running back and get similar results. We've seen what Barkley can do as a player, not many in the NFL can do it. Saying things like "just trade him, RBs aren't valued that high and their expiration date is quicker" means that you must have an awesome replacement in mind right? We are talking about an elite talent at the position. You don't just replace him with Wayne Gallman and expect the same results, as we saw in 2020


The numbers disagree with you. You can get winning production from an average RB. Of course you run into trouble if you have scrubs.

Tying up too much money into the RB position is a waste of resources. On top of which, Barkley isn't the superstar you seem to think he is.
RE: ...  
Ten Ton Hammer : 2/24/2021 10:21 am : link
In comment 15159528 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
where you lose me is this thinking that you can just replace Barkley with X running back and get similar results. We've seen what Barkley can do as a player, not many in the NFL can do it. Saying things like "just trade him, RBs aren't valued that high and their expiration date is quicker" means that you must have an awesome replacement in mind right? We are talking about an elite talent at the position. You don't just replace him with Wayne Gallman and expect the same results, as we saw in 2020


What do you define as results? You don't need a Saquon Barkley to win championships or have a league-best rushing game. From that perspective, yes, he is replaceable no matter what his highlight tape shows. This isn't to disrespect the player. It's simply fact. yeah, he has a rare collection of skills. The Giants had a league-leading rushing game with Brandon Jacobs and Derrick Ward. Put both those guys together in a lab and they don't equal Barkley.
RE: Thegratefulhead  
Thegratefulhead : 2/24/2021 12:59 pm : link
In comment 15159891 Sean said:
Quote:
It needs to be better than that. It should not take this long to put together a team to win 9 games. This is a crappy division, another 6 win season is a disaster imo.
IKR. But I don't expect the teams in our division to be as bad in 2021. Their rosters look better than ours to me. People talk a ton about the Barkley injury but he has to prove he can beat the run blitz. He dances and if it is play action, his blocking is very suspect. It is a bad combination. Run blitz on first down, if it is run Barkley will go laterally for no gain or a loss. If it is play action, or checked off to a pass, Barkley is now pass blocking. That is EXACTLY where I want him as a defensive coordinator. DJ Jones and pressure, not so great results. 2nd and long is not a great way to sustained drives.

I am just tired of double digit loss season and remain unconvinced it is about to change. I am in the "Show Me" before I believe it stage of my NY Giant fandom.
Pages: 1 2 3 <<Prev | Show All |
Back to the Corner