I would like to try to extend him now at a discount because we are signing to second contract. IMHO a 2nd contract for SB is a forgone conclusion. Article on SB second contract - ( New Window )
from SB's perspective he gets guaranteed money and security knowing he could easily get hurt again and lose his chance at a big second contract, even if its somewhat less money now then what he could make if he comes back and has a huge season.
I think if the Giants keep DG after this season its a foregone conclusion he extends SB. If however DG is jettisoned the new GM may not want to invest a huge contract in the RB position as one of his first decisions on the job.
If we give him a second contract at a market rate for a top 5 back
this offseason everybody should be fired. I doubt we will do it. I just can't tie that money up in a RB, especially a RB who has been hampered two straight years with an injury and is coming off a significant injury. If you gave me a binary choice right now, cut SB or resign him to a long term deal--I would cut him (I realize this is not a binary choice and I would suspect the Giants would act very cautiously with respect to him moving forward).
from SB's perspective he gets guaranteed money and security knowing he could easily get hurt again and lose his chance at a big second contract, even if its somewhat less money now then what he could make if he comes back and has a huge season.
I think if the Giants keep DG after this season its a foregone conclusion he extends SB. If however DG is jettisoned the new GM may not want to invest a huge contract in the RB position as one of his first decisions on the job.
In order for it to be worth doing for us, the contract would need to be heavily discounted. The guaranteed money for RB's is already low, see CMC/Kamara and that's for 2 guys coming off career years not injuries.
I just don't see him taking a huge discount when he's already guaranteed $10m this year + the 5th year option that we likely be another $10-11m.
The Barkley decision isn't one that needs any focus right now
by the Giants front office. They have far more important roster decisions to concern themselves with and Barkley is smart enough to know his future is tied to a successful rehab/recover.
Yearning for a discount with a Barkley extension isn't enticing for either side right now in my view.
It would be rather foolish to re-sign him before seeing how he comes
is that Barkley comes back and kills it at 100%. From there we exercise the 5th year tag, and can then Frnahcise if a deal isn't met, or if we simply want to move on after 6 years. It also allows us to secure him for a trade without a long term committment.
He'd have to take a hell of a discount for me to get on board with an extension now.
The owner loves the kid. I think he is getting signed to a second contract. I would gamble on him right now. I think he makes it back from injury. I know he could gamble on himself but if he gets injured again, the big second contract is gone. 4 years 40 million extension, give him more than usually guaranteed.
The better question is what's the date to exercise his 5th year option
is that Barkley comes back and kills it at 100%. From there we exercise the 5th year tag, and can then Frnahcise if a deal isn't met, or if we simply want to move on after 6 years. It also allows us to secure him for a trade without a long term committment.
He'd have to take a hell of a discount for me to get on board with an extension now.
Totally agree. He’s missed almost a full season (2020 knee) and was hampered much of the prior season with that high ankle sprain. This is the exact approach I would take. Let him play this year, if he’s healthy pick up the 5th year option. If he becomes the next Reggie Bush we at least didn’t shell out tons of cash for little impact to our winning %.
The owner loves the kid. I think he is getting signed to a second contract. I would gamble on him right now. I think he makes it back from injury. I know he could gamble on himself but if he gets injured again, the big second contract is gone. 4 years 40 million extension, give him more than usually guaranteed.
Gamble on an injured running back? Tossing out non-required guaranteed salaries, particularly "more than the usual"?
which is exactly why Barkley shouldn't. Unless that new guaranteed money is in addition to this years salary + the 5th year (which together is going to be $20-$25m anyway), why would he sign?
I believe the 5th year option needs to be picked up by the Giants between the players 3rd and 4th season. The Giants will exercise that option this spring and we will see what happens. Unless Barkley has a simply great 2021 season...I think you go the franchise tag after his 5th season. There is nothing about Barkley that screams durability at this point.
The owner loves the kid. I think he is getting signed to a second contract. I would gamble on him right now. I think he makes it back from injury. I know he could gamble on himself but if he gets injured again, the big second contract is gone. 4 years 40 million extension, give him more than usually guaranteed.
Gamble on an injured running back? Tossing out non-required guaranteed salaries, particularly "more than the usual"?
OP - This is beyond silly.
Questions:
Do you think he is working hard and will recover? How strongly do you feel about it?
For me? Very strongly.
Do you feel based on comments by the owner and GM that we will sign hem to another contract?
For me? Even more strongly OK?
What kind of year do you feel SB will have in 2021?
For me? Exceeds his rookie year.
If all of the above turn out to be true, how big will that second contract be?
Fucking gigantic.
I don't want to pay that. There has to be some part of Barkley that is worried losing that big payday. If we were to gamble on him now, I think we could get a bargain.
This is a friendly talk on a Monday where we speculate. I want to thank everyone for being open to discussion.
Dead - fine to speculate as I realize that is all we ever do
He has played 16 games just once out of his three years in the league and is coming off a serious injury. How much of a discount do you think he is giving? Honestly, I would expect Barkley doesn't want to sign an extension now either, since his market value can't really go much lower unless he is not the same RB when he comes back.
I imagine there is almost zero chance of an extension prior to the end of the 2021 season.
RE: Dead - fine to speculate as I realize that is all we ever do
He has played 16 games just once out of his three years in the league and is coming off a serious injury. How much of a discount do you think he is giving? Honestly, I would expect Barkley doesn't want to sign an extension now either, since his market value can't really go much lower unless he is not the same RB when he comes back.
I imagine there is almost zero chance of an extension prior to the end of the 2021 season.
I hear you but what if he injures the same leg again in 2021? $40 million with some guarantees makes sure your family is set for generations. 4 years is not forever and if he outplays the contract he has options.
and many reasons to see how he plays returning from an injury. SB is now on a one year prove it deal. If he has a good season and helps win games he can be franchised or extended. No reason to do it now with questions about his health and his ability to be a game changer for this team. It is all on Barkley now.
RE: Not this again - ZERO reason to extend him now
and many reasons to see how he plays returning from an injury. SB is now on a one year prove it deal. If he has a good season and helps win games he can be franchised or extended. No reason to do it now with questions about his health and his ability to be a game changer for this team. It is all on Barkley now.
That is definitely the safe play. This team needs a bargain somewhere. If we could get a discount banking on Barkley's work ethic to come back, I would take it. I want him on the team for long stretch but I don't to break the bank.
I think he exceeds his rookie year in 2021. This comes from that premise on my part.
He has played 16 games just once out of his three years in the league and is coming off a serious injury. How much of a discount do you think he is giving? Honestly, I would expect Barkley doesn't want to sign an extension now either, since his market value can't really go much lower unless he is not the same RB when he comes back.
I imagine there is almost zero chance of an extension prior to the end of the 2021 season.
I hear you but what if he injures the same leg again in 2021? $40 million with some guarantees makes sure your family is set for generations. 4 years is not forever and if he outplays the contract he has options.
How would a 4 year/$40M contract that kicks in after his current one (as suggested in the article) pay him all of that money if he injures his leg again next year? If you are suggesting the Giants fully guarantee his contract I think that is insane.
I also don't think Saquon is a guy who is trying to hedge his bets on his health. I imagine he is approaching this year as an opportunity to show he is the top back in the league and worthy of a contract that reflects that.
I think that article is largely silly.
The Giants have won only 8 games in 3 years with SB on the field
...That's not a knock on SB who is amazingly talented, but it shows the lesser importance of a RB in today's NFL and why drafting a RB when your OL is garbage is putting the cart before the horse, so to speak.
Even teams with good OLs like Dallas and the Rams probably wish they hadn't signed Elliot or Gurley to huge deals.
if he allowed him to sign a team-sweetheart deal now coming off injury. Basically playing the fear or injury against him.
Yes and no. Will his agent have done his job if he injures the same leg in 2021? He plays the game in such a way that he will be unable to limit the torque on that joint. If I were his father I might advise him to take 4/40 now instead of gambling on 5/75 because if the same joint goes he is done.
if he allowed him to sign a team-sweetheart deal now coming off injury. Basically playing the fear or injury against him.
Yes and no. Will his agent have done his job if he injures the same leg in 2021? He plays the game in such a way that he will be unable to limit the torque on that joint. If I were his father I might advise him to take 4/40 now instead of gambling on 5/75 because if the same joint goes he is done.
Which is the exact reason if I am the Giants I say "let's talk a year from now."
RE: RE: RE: I would not even consider extending him now
He has played 16 games just once out of his three years in the league and is coming off a serious injury. How much of a discount do you think he is giving? Honestly, I would expect Barkley doesn't want to sign an extension now either, since his market value can't really go much lower unless he is not the same RB when he comes back.
I imagine there is almost zero chance of an extension prior to the end of the 2021 season.
I hear you but what if he injures the same leg again in 2021? $40 million with some guarantees makes sure your family is set for generations. 4 years is not forever and if he outplays the contract he has options.
How would a 4 year/$40M contract that kicks in after his current one (as suggested in the article) pay him all of that money if he injures his leg again next year? If you are suggesting the Giants fully guarantee his contract I think that is insane.
I also don't think Saquon is a guy who is trying to hedge his bets on his health. I imagine he is approaching this year as an opportunity to show he is the top back in the league and worthy of a contract that reflects that.
I think that article is largely silly.
not fully, don't go strawman. Whatever the current guarantees are in the NFL I would guarantee a little more to get him to bite. That percentage guarantee increase would be negotiable and there would definitely be a point I would not cross.
But please, don't argue against a fully guaranteed contract, that is fiction.
if he allowed him to sign a team-sweetheart deal now coming off injury. Basically playing the fear or injury against him.
Yes and no. Will his agent have done his job if he injures the same leg in 2021? He plays the game in such a way that he will be unable to limit the torque on that joint. If I were his father I might advise him to take 4/40 now instead of gambling on 5/75 because if the same joint goes he is done.
Which is the exact reason if I am the Giants I say "let's talk a year from now."
Understandable, we did that with LW and it didn't work out.
My premise is based on SB exceeding his rookie production and what the contract demands will be after. This is absolutely a gamble for both sides, but because of the risks for both sides, I think there is compromise that could work.
he's making what, $31m on his rookie deal? Add in the 5th year that's almost a lock and that brings him right around $45m. He's already set for life. There's really not that much upside for him signing a team friendly deal.
to extend Barkley now. As it made no sense to spend the #2 pick of the draft on him. What is the possible upside of resigning him? He is not going to agree to some massive discount. Whatever he demands will surely have great risk for the team.
Seriously, game this out.
Running back is the mist fungible position in the game. Great backs can often have their production replaced by two or three lesser backs at far less money. The Bucs son the Super Bowl with a solid rushing attack and they have Fournette and Jones and, trust me, they won't spend a ton to retain Fournette. They'll find the next guy up. You just don;t need a supreme talent at RB to win. And if you overpay it is probably a hindrance.
As to the risk, why would the Giants pay a back long term who has Barkley's injury profile at the moment. You don't know what you are paying for. It is questionable to extend Barkley, or any top running back, when they are playing at an all-pro level, why would you pay him when he can't stay on the field. Try to take emotion out of the equation. Most long term, high dollar, RB deals turn out poorly for the team. Why would we bet Barkley is an outlier, especially at this stage?
Finally, let's think about the risk/reward. The upside of signing Barkley long term now is that you get a discount on a player who performs at top-3 at the position - that's the hop, right? And even if he is healthy that performance level is not at all certain. But let's assume he will do it. Well we can have that performance level for his 4th yr, his 5th year rookie season, and two franchise tags. If he's the best back in the game and we get him for franchise dollars, that will be a huge boon. It's basically what you get with the long term deal, with far less risk. It's kind of the obvious play.
to extend Barkley now. As it made no sense to spend the #2 pick of the draft on him. What is the possible upside of resigning him? He is not going to agree to some massive discount. Whatever he demands will surely have great risk for the team.
Seriously, game this out.
Running back is the mist fungible position in the game. Great backs can often have their production replaced by two or three lesser backs at far less money. The Bucs son the Super Bowl with a solid rushing attack and they have Fournette and Jones and, trust me, they won't spend a ton to retain Fournette. They'll find the next guy up. You just don;t need a supreme talent at RB to win. And if you overpay it is probably a hindrance.
As to the risk, why would the Giants pay a back long term who has Barkley's injury profile at the moment. You don't know what you are paying for. It is questionable to extend Barkley, or any top running back, when they are playing at an all-pro level, why would you pay him when he can't stay on the field. Try to take emotion out of the equation. Most long term, high dollar, RB deals turn out poorly for the team. Why would we bet Barkley is an outlier, especially at this stage?
Finally, let's think about the risk/reward. The upside of signing Barkley long term now is that you get a discount on a player who performs at top-3 at the position - that's the hop, right? And even if he is healthy that performance level is not at all certain. But let's assume he will do it. Well we can have that performance level for his 4th yr, his 5th year rookie season, and two franchise tags. If he's the best back in the game and we get him for franchise dollars, that will be a huge boon. It's basically what you get with the long term deal, with far less risk. It's kind of the obvious play.
I hate this plan - but it's clearly the right move for the organization.
I feel bad for NFL RBs - b/c this is how the good ones should be treated moving forward.
He hasnt earned the 2nd contract at Market value. I think it would benefit both sides to wait. I dodnt want to draft a RB 2nd overall in the 1st place but now after 3 seasons it looks like a horrible pick. He had a very good rookie season followed by average and then a few bad games into his 3rd season a major injury. He will not be 100% this season so he will probably have another avgerage season at best. Im sorry, but as much as I like the kids attitude hes not a top 5 back at this point and may never be.
His pass blocking may be some of the worst I have seen. He lacks the desire for contact in blocking as well as running. thats a bad thing for a RB coming off injury. The man has all the talent in the world but his problem is in his head and Im not sure that can be fixed. I would look to draft a RB in the 3rd round or later and hope for the best. maybe even a cluster draft like we did at LB abd have several guys fill the need. I dont see SB as the guy we drafted unfortunately. great kid, great talent but doesnt seem like a football player. maybe im worng but until he shows a willingness for contact he's not a guy I can count on in a big spot.
but its at a cheaper position and we can stop at anytime we no longer feel its worth it. Not sure how they will effect the human side of the game, and if that would rock the boat with player relations, but from a cap + value perspective its what I'd do.
If he never got injured and had a productive 2020 i'd be all for an early extension but those are the breaks, unfortunately.
to extend Barkley now. As it made no sense to spend the #2 pick of the draft on him. What is the possible upside of resigning him? He is not going to agree to some massive discount. Whatever he demands will surely have great risk for the team.
Seriously, game this out.
Running back is the mist fungible position in the game. Great backs can often have their production replaced by two or three lesser backs at far less money. The Bucs son the Super Bowl with a solid rushing attack and they have Fournette and Jones and, trust me, they won't spend a ton to retain Fournette. They'll find the next guy up. You just don;t need a supreme talent at RB to win. And if you overpay it is probably a hindrance.
As to the risk, why would the Giants pay a back long term who has Barkley's injury profile at the moment. You don't know what you are paying for. It is questionable to extend Barkley, or any top running back, when they are playing at an all-pro level, why would you pay him when he can't stay on the field. Try to take emotion out of the equation. Most long term, high dollar, RB deals turn out poorly for the team. Why would we bet Barkley is an outlier, especially at this stage?
Finally, let's think about the risk/reward. The upside of signing Barkley long term now is that you get a discount on a player who performs at top-3 at the position - that's the hop, right? And even if he is healthy that performance level is not at all certain. But let's assume he will do it. Well we can have that performance level for his 4th yr, his 5th year rookie season, and two franchise tags. If he's the best back in the game and we get him for franchise dollars, that will be a huge boon. It's basically what you get with the long term deal, with far less risk. It's kind of the obvious play.
I hate this plan - but it's clearly the right move for the organization.
I feel bad for NFL RBs - b/c this is how the good ones should be treated moving forward.
that's the NFL as it is. The rules changes and evolution of offensive philosophy brought us here. it's better to be a receiver.
Is that they sign him to a big extension following year 5, and like all running backs, the wheels fall off in year 6-7.
His injury was just brutal. If he was healthy and performing in 2020, you sign him to an extension now, eat the big money in his most productive years and then move on maybe a year early versus several years late.
If he returns to his 2018/19 form, and it's a positive 2021 campaign, look to trade SB next offseason. It's the ideal outcome and SB should be at his highest market value.
If he's struggles with production/injuries, then you need to consider either cutting him or maybe trading him next offseason. Take the cap hit and move on.
Essentially l don't like any idea of keeping him past 2021. We can find other cheaper solutions at RB.
2018 was his best season. That year the average play to Barkley (any touch + incompletions intended for him) went for 5.3 yards.
The average play league wide that year went for 5.6 yards.
I don't think Barkley's a great running back. I don't think he makes great decisions at and behind the LOS, and we know he's a poor blocker.
What he IS great at is being an open field runner. I think getting him out of the backfield and put in the slot more (especially on third down) is a better use of what he does well. Do that, and paying him will make a lot more sense.
If he returns to his 2018/19 form, and it's a positive 2021 campaign, look to trade SB next offseason. It's the ideal outcome and SB should be at his highest market value.
If he's struggles with production/injuries, then you need to consider either cutting him or maybe trading him next offseason. Take the cap hit and move on.
Essentially l don't like any idea of keeping him past 2021. We can find other cheaper solutions at RB.
That would be best.
I am coming from the universe in which the NY Giants, owned by Mara are signing him to a second contract unless video comes out showing him smacking a woman in the middle of Times Square.
In that universe, I am willing to gamble on signing him to friendlier deal before he proves it in 2021. I think he is going to have such a monster year that it will be PR nightmare not to sign him.
I don't want to get locked into the largest annual contract a RB has ever signed for 5 years...Nope, don't want that. That is where I believe we are headed.
just like Kamara and CMC. Part of what makes them valuable running routes is there ability to also carry the ball. Can't just make Barkley into a WR - the unpredictability is gone.
He also got those stats despite an inept OL, another reason why its misleading. He led the league in 2018 getting hit behind the LOS (iirc), can't just ignore that.
at the end of his deal then sure, sign him now. But again, he's not accepting a team friendly deal which is the sticking point for me - there's really no incentive for him to do that. You outlined a $40m deal earlier - he's going to make $25m the next 2 years alone and it will be 100% guaranteed. From there he can be franchised (another $15m give or take) or will sign a longer term deal somewhere.
But that's going to cost money, which we'll have less of if we pay Barkley.
Look I know it's not the popular move but the smartest approach is to hope he plays well in 2021 and then trade him. The evidence against paying running backs is overwhelming at this point, and we've seen enough to know that Barkley isn't special enough to warrant being considered an exception.
If he returns to his 2018/19 form, and it's a positive 2021 campaign, look to trade SB next offseason. It's the ideal outcome and SB should be at his highest market value.
If he's struggles with production/injuries, then you need to consider either cutting him or maybe trading him next offseason. Take the cap hit and move on.
Essentially l don't like any idea of keeping him past 2021. We can find other cheaper solutions at RB.
This...
He shouldn't be on the team past 2021. The 20201 money is guaranteed so the Giants are on the hook for it anyway.
After that, if it's a binary choice I agree with Essex (it isn't binary obviously) and let him walk (not cut) and maybe get a comp pick.
I agree with Terps, I don't think he is a very good RB either. RBs need to do more than be great in open space.
Best outcome is if he can be traded for a high 3rd or low 2nd. However, I can't see DG ever doing this.
I get your point for sure. You are taking into account the Mara factor - which he said in the State of the Union that he expects SB to be here for a “very long time” - and building that into your assessment. And how to best manage those circumstances going forward.
Naturally, I can’t accept those conditions so I feel compelled to discuss what a well managed team would do... ; )
But that's going to cost money, which we'll have less of if we pay Barkley.
Look I know it's not the popular move but the smartest approach is to hope he plays well in 2021 and then trade him. The evidence against paying running backs is overwhelming at this point, and we've seen enough to know that Barkley isn't special enough to warrant being considered an exception.
with RB by committee. The Giants won a super bowl the same way.
It works. Why we felt the need to re-invent the wheel that got us two more rings with I'll never understand.
Ever since Coughlin left the Giants have seemingly about-faced on philosophies that they built title-winning teams around and tried to sell it as "the right way".
but it isn't a slam dunk for me either. I just hope he comes back to 100% to open some of these doors. Right now everything is closed shut until atleast halfway through the 2021 season.
with RB by committee. The Giants won a super bowl the same way.
It works. Why we felt the need to re-invent the wheel that got us two more rings with I'll never understand.
Ever since Coughlin left the Giants have seemingly about-faced on philosophies that they built title-winning teams around and tried to sell it as "the right way".
It works when the rest is in place. The Giants haven't been successful at it since the SB runs so I'm overall skeptical of this approach.
If you are giving me Tom Brady, the OL, and those 3 or 4 WR's, of course I'm taking that over a RB.
The worst thing for either side is he gets hurt again
with RB by committee. The Giants won a super bowl the same way.
It works. Why we felt the need to re-invent the wheel that got us two more rings with I'll never understand.
Ever since Coughlin left the Giants have seemingly about-faced on philosophies that they built title-winning teams around and tried to sell it as "the right way".
It works when the rest is in place. The Giants haven't been successful at it since the SB runs so I'm overall skeptical of this approach.
If you are giving me Tom Brady, the OL, and those 3 or 4 WR's, of course I'm taking that over a RB.
Well, the trick to that is having guys on good contracts deals. I think tampa is only paying Brady and Evans and Smith (The LT) big money on offense.
For us, why would we commit to a longer term without seeing his health and knee in action? For him, why would he sign at a deep discount now, instead of betting on himself, provided he is healthy?
I get your point for sure. You are taking into account the Mara factor - which he said in the State of the Union that he expects SB to be here for a “very long time” - and building that into your assessment. And how to best manage those circumstances going forward.
Naturally, I can’t accept those conditions so I feel compelled to discuss what a well managed team would do... ; )
It is not just what he said, it is what they have done in the past as a franchise. Barkley is catnip to Mara. Team first, hard working, lead by example superstar that sells merchandise and puts fannies in the seats(when we return). I own my business, Football a business, we can never forget that.
I wish we did not draft him based on everything that has happened since. The ROI has been abysmal. That said, I would wager we resign him. I would also wager that he has a great year in 2021. SO that is where I am. Trying to minimize the inevitable.
For us, why would we commit to a longer term without seeing his health and knee in action? For him, why would he sign at a deep discount now, instead of betting on himself, provided he is healthy?
For him, what does he get if injures the same knee in camp? No more contracts.
For us, what happens if he has a big year in 2021? He is going to cost a fortune.
For us, why would we commit to a longer term without seeing his health and knee in action? For him, why would he sign at a deep discount now, instead of betting on himself, provided he is healthy?
For him, what does he get if injures the same knee in camp? No more contracts.
For us, what happens if he has a big year in 2021? He is going to cost a fortune.
It is a gamble for certain.
My point is, in order for the deal to be worth his while, it would be much for the Giants to risk. For it to be worth our while, it is likely not enough for him to commit.
I get your point for sure. You are taking into account the Mara factor - which he said in the State of the Union that he expects SB to be here for a “very long time” - and building that into your assessment. And how to best manage those circumstances going forward.
Naturally, I can’t accept those conditions so I feel compelled to discuss what a well managed team would do... ; )
It is not just what he said, it is what they have done in the past as a franchise. Barkley is catnip to Mara. Team first, hard working, lead by example superstar that sells merchandise and puts fannies in the seats(when we return). I own my business, Football a business, we can never forget that.
I wish we did not draft him based on everything that has happened since. The ROI has been abysmal. That said, I would wager we resign him. I would also wager that he has a great year in 2021. SO that is where I am. Trying to minimize the inevitable.
Almost shocking posts like these can survive without being shouted down from rooftops.
Where are the defenders of All-Things Giants...asleep at the switch or have they finally seen the light on the RB value proposition?
If he returns to his 2018/19 form, and it's a positive 2021 campaign, look to trade SB next offseason. It's the ideal outcome and SB should be at his highest market value.
If he's struggles with production/injuries, then you need to consider either cutting him or maybe trading him next offseason. Take the cap hit and move on.
Essentially l don't like any idea of keeping him past 2021. We can find other cheaper solutions at RB.
I tend to agree this is most suitable. Difficult to imagine a 1st round pick coming back as posted above though.
I get your point for sure. You are taking into account the Mara factor - which he said in the State of the Union that he expects SB to be here for a “very long time” - and building that into your assessment. And how to best manage those circumstances going forward.
Naturally, I can’t accept those conditions so I feel compelled to discuss what a well managed team would do... ; )
It is not just what he said, it is what they have done in the past as a franchise. Barkley is catnip to Mara. Team first, hard working, lead by example superstar that sells merchandise and puts fannies in the seats(when we return). I own my business, Football a business, we can never forget that.
I wish we did not draft him based on everything that has happened since. The ROI has been abysmal. That said, I would wager we resign him. I would also wager that he has a great year in 2021. SO that is where I am. Trying to minimize the inevitable.
Almost shocking posts like these can survive without being shouted down from rooftops.
Where are the defenders of All-Things Giants...asleep at the switch or have they finally seen the light on the RB value proposition?
We are having a reasonable discussion, why troll people? My guess as to why, I don't call the Giants, DG or the fans that support their decisions stupid. I chose not to use words that invite a hostile reply. When replying to people in the thread that disagreed with my OP, I recognize their points and do not dismiss them. I accept other people's views as valid and leave open the option of changing my mind. Just like when I speak to people, I listen to them instead of waiting for my turn to speak. There is a subtle difference.
for 2K next year, catch 100 passes for 1K yards and score 20 TDs. And we win the Super Bowl. Yet, I would still advocate that we don't re-sign Barkley.
Because I would still believe the following prevails:
-- A RB's expiration date starts around year five.
-- RB's are one of the most fungible position in football.
-- RBBC makes more sense in today's NFL.
-- The ROI on a big contract for a RB is prohibitive.
-- If Jones is the solution at QB, there is even less reason to re-sign SB.
He hasnt earned the 2nd contract at Market value. I think it would benefit both sides to wait. I dodnt want to draft a RB 2nd overall in the 1st place but now after 3 seasons it looks like a horrible pick. He had a very good rookie season followed by average and then a few bad games into his 3rd season a major injury. He will not be 100% this season so he will probably have another avgerage season at best. Im sorry, but as much as I like the kids attitude hes not a top 5 back at this point and may never be.
His pass blocking may be some of the worst I have seen. He lacks the desire for contact in blocking as well as running. thats a bad thing for a RB coming off injury. The man has all the talent in the world but his problem is in his head and Im not sure that can be fixed. I would look to draft a RB in the 3rd round or later and hope for the best. maybe even a cluster draft like we did at LB abd have several guys fill the need. I dont see SB as the guy we drafted unfortunately. great kid, great talent but doesnt seem like a football player. maybe im worng but until he shows a willingness for contact he's not a guy I can count on in a big spot.
I said this before, and while it may sound insane, Barkley - unless he changes his approach to the game - really isn't a RB. Using him as one with his poor pass blocking and boom or bust running style that can't consistently move the chains loses you ball games. I became even more convinced of this when watching the old videos from the 80s people have been posting and seeing Joe Morris play. It was a different game back then, but Morris was a better RB than Barkley has been. It's not even close.
Barkley is a guy who you scheme to get out into space where his gifts become an asset. I don't know if you'd call him a gadget player, a RB/WR, H-back, or what, but that's what he is.
I think this is why we'd see Shurmur limit Barkley's carries and we'd wonder why. He was a lousy head coach but he knows offense and I think he kind of realized this.
So is Barkley talented? Absolutely. But he's not a guy you break the bank for.
If he returns to his 2018/19 form, and it's a positive 2021 campaign, look to trade SB next offseason. It's the ideal outcome and SB should be at his highest market value.
If he's struggles with production/injuries, then you need to consider either cutting him or maybe trading him next offseason. Take the cap hit and move on.
Essentially l don't like any idea of keeping him past 2021. We can find other cheaper solutions at RB.
I tend to agree this is most suitable. Difficult to imagine a 1st round pick coming back as posted above though.
Would think a #2, maybe...
I doubt we'd even get a 2nd rounder. The other 31 teams in the league don't have Gettleman as GM.
Ok, so I think Barkley is a better player than Bush. Given what he is, the coaches need to find a way for Barkley to make this offense more dynamic. Take it as a coaching challenge.
More John Mara bashing: I know I keep going on about how Mara is a fool. Case in point, assuring that SB will be on the team for a long time in public. That was a cringe worthy moronic statement that adds to the case that he can’t think two moves ahead. A public statement like that puts DG in a weak position as he negotiates a deal with SB and it complicates Judges job if he wants to adjust SB’s role. Mara just weakened his team’s position and gained nothing for it.
That’s the epitome of stupidity = no gain but increased risk.
If he's healthy, he absolutely has the talent to warrant a 2nd deal. BUT, that doesn't mean it's a good idea. I have always been a fan of drafting him. But, right now, I think bw's approach is the correct one. Even if healthy and putting up the numbers we want and expect, it doesn't change the fact that he's a RB through 4 years and already has 1 knee surgery. That's not a combination that warrants an investment. The odds are against it working out. That doesn't mean it woudln't. But, it also doesn't mean we should take the risk.
For me, the player was not the mistake. I think he has/had the talent to warrant the pick. The problem, to me, is that he was picked, it would seem, to fix the offense by himself and to warrant sticking with Eli. The problem with that is the OL remained one of the worst OLs in the league. That has made his pick a waste.
RE: Ha I read literally every post till Terps’ last one!
Ok, so I think Barkley is a better player than Bush. Given what he is, the coaches need to find a way for Barkley to make this offense more dynamic. Take it as a coaching challenge.
More John Mara bashing: I know I keep going on about how Mara is a fool. Case in point, assuring that SB will be on the team for a long time in public. That was a cringe worthy moronic statement that adds to the case that he can’t think two moves ahead. A public statement like that puts DG in a weak position as he negotiates a deal with SB and it complicates Judges job if he wants to adjust SB’s role. Mara just weakened his team’s position and gained nothing for it.
That’s the epitome of stupidity = no gain but increased risk.
Exactly right.
RE: RE: Ha I read literally every post till Terps’ last one!
Ok, so I think Barkley is a better player than Bush. Given what he is, the coaches need to find a way for Barkley to make this offense more dynamic. Take it as a coaching challenge.
More John Mara bashing: I know I keep going on about how Mara is a fool. Case in point, assuring that SB will be on the team for a long time in public. That was a cringe worthy moronic statement that adds to the case that he can’t think two moves ahead. A public statement like that puts DG in a weak position as he negotiates a deal with SB and it complicates Judges job if he wants to adjust SB’s role. Mara just weakened his team’s position and gained nothing for it.
That’s the epitome of stupidity = no gain but increased risk.
Exactly right.
Do you really think the statement puts DG in weaker negotiating position?
Nevertheless, what do you mean by it also complicates Judge's job, don't follow...
You have to wait and see what SB is on the football field in 2021. He's got to demonstrate he can play football again, and at a level commensurate with an extension. They've got time to wait him out, and the overall value of his rookie will almost certainly be paid to him. He's also pocketing dollars pushing products, etc, in the NY TV area.
Also, to me it's clear there's no plan to trade him. Things can change, but unless DG is out and there's an unexpected sea change, he will remain a Giant.
say they want their 1st round picks on the team for a long time.
I'm picturing Barkley's agent playing a recording of Mara saying this in their meeting and following it up with "your move".
I'm not privy to NFL contract negotiations but they likely aren't far off from anything else you haggle over. If i'm only willing to pay X a soundbyte of something I said in the past isn't going to change my mind. Barkley can be tagged or traded, no one is forcing us to sign anyone long term.
Yes, I think the owner coming out and saying a player will be
on the team in the future weakens the negotiating hand.
Re Judge, we all saw how Shurmur went away from SB when games were on the line. What if Judge decides SB isn't part of a winning formula? Suddenly, it's more than putting a prominent high pick on the bench, which is difficult enough. Now Judge has to be worry about the political relationship with the owner.
Mara's statement was an own goal. It makes me think he literally doesn't understand what is going on around him.
RE: Yes, I think the owner coming out and saying a player will be
on the team in the future weakens the negotiating hand.
Re Judge, we all saw how Shurmur went away from SB when games were on the line. What if Judge decides SB isn't part of a winning formula? Suddenly, it's more than putting a prominent high pick on the bench, which is difficult enough. Now Judge has to be worry about the political relationship with the owner.
Mara's statement was an own goal. It makes me think he literally doesn't understand what is going on around him.
While not putting the NYG Front Office on a pedestal, it would be shocking if it weakened actual negotiations.
Also if Judge/Garrett change the offensive gameplan because its better to under-utilize Barkley then they need to produce the results. If they don't, then they will have much bigger problems than just dealing with how many snaps they should give Saquon to keep Mara happy.
for 2K next year, catch 100 passes for 1K yards and score 20 TDs. And we win the Super Bowl. Yet, I would still advocate that we don't re-sign Barkley.
where you lose me is this thinking that you can just replace Barkley with X running back and get similar results. We've seen what Barkley can do as a player, not many in the NFL can do it. Saying things like "just trade him, RBs aren't valued that high and their expiration date is quicker" means that you must have an awesome replacement in mind right? We are talking about an elite talent at the position. You don't just replace him with Wayne Gallman and expect the same results, as we saw in 2020
You have to wait and see what SB is on the football field in 2021. He's got to demonstrate he can play football again, and at a level commensurate with an extension. They've got time to wait him out, and the overall value of his rookie will almost certainly be paid to him. He's also pocketing dollars pushing products, etc, in the NY TV area.
Also, to me it's clear there's no plan to trade him. Things can change, but unless DG is out and there's an unexpected sea change, he will remain a Giant.
I believe that last paragraph wholeheartedly. It is why I would gamble now before he proves it on the field. It is the only chance for a discount. The OL is going to be better next year, they invested in the experience of their young players and it will pay dividends.
My OP is based on the premise that I strongly believe he his is going to exceed expectations for 2021. I do understand that my position is unrealistic with almost no comparable situation before. Has anyone ever been extended before they came back form injury? I think I remember one but I can't put a finger on it.
where you lose me is this thinking that you can just replace Barkley with X running back and get similar results. We've seen what Barkley can do as a player, not many in the NFL can do it. Saying things like "just trade him, RBs aren't valued that high and their expiration date is quicker" means that you must have an awesome replacement in mind right? We are talking about an elite talent at the position. You don't just replace him with Wayne Gallman and expect the same results, as we saw in 2020
If I could play Grandmaster of time and trade Barkley for Bradshaw and Jacobs at the same age I would not think twice about it.
RE: Ha I read literally every post till Terps’ last one!
Ok, so I think Barkley is a better player than Bush. Given what he is, the coaches need to find a way for Barkley to make this offense more dynamic. Take it as a coaching challenge.
More John Mara bashing: I know I keep going on about how Mara is a fool. Case in point, assuring that SB will be on the team for a long time in public. That was a cringe worthy moronic statement that adds to the case that he can’t think two moves ahead. A public statement like that puts DG in a weak position as he negotiates a deal with SB and it complicates Judges job if he wants to adjust SB’s role. Mara just weakened his team’s position and gained nothing for it.
That’s the epitome of stupidity = no gain but increased risk.
Mara is too much like his father. And Rozelle is not around to hire George Young to save us from the way the Maras do things.
RE: RE: Two points I think are clear at this point
You have to wait and see what SB is on the football field in 2021. He's got to demonstrate he can play football again, and at a level commensurate with an extension. They've got time to wait him out, and the overall value of his rookie will almost certainly be paid to him. He's also pocketing dollars pushing products, etc, in the NY TV area.
Also, to me it's clear there's no plan to trade him. Things can change, but unless DG is out and there's an unexpected sea change, he will remain a Giant.
I believe that last paragraph wholeheartedly. It is why I would gamble now before he proves it on the field. It is the only chance for a discount. The OL is going to be better next year, they invested in the experience of their young players and it will pay dividends.
My OP is based on the premise that I strongly believe he his is going to exceed expectations for 2021. I do understand that my position is unrealistic with almost no comparable situation before. Has anyone ever been extended before they came back form injury? I think I remember one but I can't put a finger on it.
I follow your thought process, but don't see them committing let's say $40-50M to him before the knee is proven. If they stick with his rookie deal he earns north of $30M, I would consider that a sunk cost so he's set for life either way.
RE: RE: RE: Two points I think are clear at this point
You have to wait and see what SB is on the football field in 2021. He's got to demonstrate he can play football again, and at a level commensurate with an extension. They've got time to wait him out, and the overall value of his rookie will almost certainly be paid to him. He's also pocketing dollars pushing products, etc, in the NY TV area.
Also, to me it's clear there's no plan to trade him. Things can change, but unless DG is out and there's an unexpected sea change, he will remain a Giant.
I believe that last paragraph wholeheartedly. It is why I would gamble now before he proves it on the field. It is the only chance for a discount. The OL is going to be better next year, they invested in the experience of their young players and it will pay dividends.
My OP is based on the premise that I strongly believe he his is going to exceed expectations for 2021. I do understand that my position is unrealistic with almost no comparable situation before. Has anyone ever been extended before they came back form injury? I think I remember one but I can't put a finger on it.
I follow your thought process, but don't see them committing let's say $40-50M to him before the knee is proven. If they stick with his rookie deal he earns north of $30M, I would consider that a sunk cost so he's set for life either way.
Almost shocking posts like these can survive without being shouted down from rooftops.
Where are the defenders of All-Things Giants...asleep at the switch or have they finally seen the light on the RB value proposition?
Maybe they're still convened at their round table polishing off the remaining slices of Papa John's -- which they swear is good pizza with potential -- while listening to Matchbox 20, who they swear is a great band subjected to unfair criticism that we don't levy towards other bands.
RE: RE: RE: Ha I read literally every post till Terps’ last one!
Do you really think the statement puts DG in weaker negotiating position?
Nevertheless, what do you mean by it also complicates Judge's job, don't follow...
I doubt it would materially weaken DG's ability at the negotiation table, but I don't think it's wise for owners to spout off what could sound an awful lot like a mandate.
If he returns to his 2018/19 form, and it's a positive 2021 campaign, look to trade SB next offseason.
So....if he returns to form as a top 3 running back in football, you'd like him off the team?
For the money he'd demand, yes. It's just very likely the tipping point on the production curve is not far away. So why chance it? Trust the football actuarial tables...
for 2K next year, catch 100 passes for 1K yards and score 20 TDs. And we win the Super Bowl. Yet, I would still advocate that we don't re-sign Barkley.
Good thing you aren't the GM
I doubt after the three years of the Gentlemen Era I could do worse... ;)
for 2K next year, catch 100 passes for 1K yards and score 20 TDs. And we win the Super Bowl. Yet, I would still advocate that we don't re-sign Barkley.
Good thing you aren't the GM
I doubt after the three years of the Gentlemen Era I could do worse... ;)
15-33 is not a very high bar to exceed.
It's not just going 15-33 over the last three years
It's that the roster is still thin with huge question marks in critical areas, and nothing special on hand in terms of resources (draft picks and cap space).
This organization is closer to initiating a new rebuild under Judge+new GM than it is to competing.
Had all the actions under the Gettleman tenure simple been determined by a random number generator it likely would have turned out better.
RE: It's not just going 15-33 over the last three years
It's that the roster is still thin with huge question marks in critical areas, and nothing special on hand in terms of resources (draft picks and cap space).
This organization is closer to initiating a new rebuild under Judge+new GM than it is to competing.
Had all the actions under the Gettleman tenure simple been determined by a random number generator it likely would have turned out better.
I agree with the first line and you start to lose me after.
I am about to wildly speculate.
Brass tax, DG stayed because Judge wanted him to. Not saying they gave him the power to hire whoever he wanted. I think they interviewed after the season and Judge said he worked well with DG.
I believe they they think they fixed the whole enchilada with Judge and are going to try to not to mess it up. I think they believe they hired they next Tomlin. We shall see.
for 2K next year, catch 100 passes for 1K yards and score 20 TDs. And we win the Super Bowl. Yet, I would still advocate that we don't re-sign Barkley.
Good thing you aren't the GM
I doubt after the three years of the Gentlemen Era I could do worse... ;)
The Gettleman Fan Club on BBI would convert over to the BW in DC Fan Club.
I'd be pleasantly surprised if Judge has that much power this early. If he did, why is Garrett still the OC (a job it seems clear Judge wants to give to Kitchens)?
I just don't see evidence Mara changing the model the Giants have been using for decades. I think we're seeing a continuation of what's gone on in the past - the GM and head coach are on different tracks, and the blame for failure alternates between them. Shurmur caught the blame before, now it's Gettleman's turn. After Gettleman is replaced by Abrams (the inevitability of that statement is indicative of the dysfunction), the onus will be on Judge to perform.
I know Judge looks great, but he just went 6-10. If the Giants go 6-10 again (or worse) in 2021, he's probably going to be coaching for his job in 2022 and we'll be hearing about a new rebuild with Abrams and a new QB.
I'd be pleasantly surprised if Judge has that much power this early. If he did, why is Garrett still the OC (a job it seems clear Judge wants to give to Kitchens)?
I just don't see evidence Mara changing the model the Giants have been using for decades. I think we're seeing a continuation of what's gone on in the past - the GM and head coach are on different tracks, and the blame for failure alternates between them. Shurmur caught the blame before, now it's Gettleman's turn. After Gettleman is replaced by Abrams (the inevitability of that statement is indicative of the dysfunction), the onus will be on Judge to perform.
I know Judge looks great, but he just went 6-10. If the Giants go 6-10 again (or worse) in 2021, he's probably going to be coaching for his job in 2022 and we'll be hearing about a new rebuild with Abrams and a new QB.
I tried to clarify. I don't they gave him power.
I think they believe they hired "the guy" in Judge. They think the 2 worked well together. I suspect they have some kind of exit interview after the season and Judge likely said the pairing worked.
My wild speculation is they are quite pleased with themselves by the Judge hire. I agree with 6-10. Judge said everything "I" wanted to hear. I am personally more interested in results.
I get a little nervous when people tell me exactly what I want to hear. I think the ownership loves it. It is my belief DG got his job by telling them exactly what they wanted to hear about the roster.
But there is a pretty loud group of posters who think that 15-33 is actually good considering the circumstances Gettleman inherited.
I read the excuses quite regularly...
-- Reese left a poor roster for DG.
-- Eli staying another year was more Mara, not DG.
-- DG selected a "generational player" with SB.
-- DG selected the right heir apparent with DJ.
-- DG has built a really good D.
-- DG now has the right pieces for the OL.
-- DG almost won a NFCE title this year.
-- Etc.
So when you understand all of this "context", it's actually a "good" 15-33.
But there is a pretty loud group of posters who think that 15-33 is actually good considering the circumstances Gettleman inherited.
I read the excuses quite regularly...
-- Reese left a poor roster for DG.
-- Eli staying another year was more Mara, not DG.
-- DG selected a "generational player" with SB.
-- DG selected the right heir apparent with DJ.
-- DG has built a really good D.
-- DG now has the right pieces for the OL.
-- DG almost won a NFCE title this year.
-- Etc.
So when you understand all of this "context", it's actually a "good" 15-33.
Even if you like some of Gettleman's moves, and you stick to the excuse that he inherited a terrible roster thanks to lack of serious planning by Reese, the results can't be defended. Not only do we have 15 wins in 3 years, but we still have a very problematic roster. In 3 years Gettleman has almost completely turned over the roster, yet we are still in the middle of a rebuild, we still have no depth at several positions, we still have mediocre to worse starters at several positions, and we still have huge question marks at several critical positions. I like Judge and I think he has the organization heading in the right direction. But, any future success is 100% dependent on a ridiculously successful off season this year. We must straighten out the OL once and for all. We must get a legit #1 WR. We must get a consistent pass rusher or two or 3. We must straighten out CB2 and we must get at least one LB not named Martinez to play at an impactful level. And, after all that, we have to be 100% correct about Jones. That's a Hell of a lot.
Some of you have unreasonable expectations. It's only been
I'd be pleasantly surprised if Judge has that much power this early. If he did, why is Garrett still the OC (a job it seems clear Judge wants to give to Kitchens)?
I just don't see evidence Mara changing the model the Giants have been using for decades. I think we're seeing a continuation of what's gone on in the past - the GM and head coach are on different tracks, and the blame for failure alternates between them. Shurmur caught the blame before, now it's Gettleman's turn. After Gettleman is replaced by Abrams (the inevitability of that statement is indicative of the dysfunction), the onus will be on Judge to perform.
I know Judge looks great, but he just went 6-10. If the Giants go 6-10 again (or worse) in 2021, he's probably going to be coaching for his job in 2022 and we'll be hearing about a new rebuild with Abrams and a new QB.
Things really get complicated if the Giants have another 6 or below win season. Imo, they really need to be 9-7 at minimum. If they go 6-10 again, now Judge is coaching for his life in 2022 which is not ideal.
I’m sure Mara is banking on a 9+ win season, this allows multiple things:
1. It makes transitioning to Abrams a much easier sell.
2. It takes pressure off of Judge for 2022 and brings some much needed stability to the coaching staff.
3. Gettleman can say (for his ego) he got it turned around and go to Cape Cod.
Abrams being a cap guy would hopefully lead to an outside hire to focus on personnel, assistant GM. It would also put more emphasis on personnel on the coaching staff since that isn’t Abrams background.
I don’t think that is bad either, I can live with that. Things really get messy if it’s another <6 win season.
RE: Some of you have unreasonable expectations. It's only been
three years. And if you take off Year 1 because Gettleman was strong-armed into sticking with Eli its really only been two years.
And if you don't count sleeping, bathroom breaks, sitting in traffic, etc. its really probably only one year.
And how much can you really do in one year...
First off, he wasn't strong armed into anything. Second, as far as I'm concerned sticking with Eli wasn't the problem. Sticking with Eli behind the worst OL in the league was the problem. That is on the GM.
I'd be pleasantly surprised if Judge has that much power this early. If he did, why is Garrett still the OC (a job it seems clear Judge wants to give to Kitchens)?
I just don't see evidence Mara changing the model the Giants have been using for decades. I think we're seeing a continuation of what's gone on in the past - the GM and head coach are on different tracks, and the blame for failure alternates between them. Shurmur caught the blame before, now it's Gettleman's turn. After Gettleman is replaced by Abrams (the inevitability of that statement is indicative of the dysfunction), the onus will be on Judge to perform.
I know Judge looks great, but he just went 6-10. If the Giants go 6-10 again (or worse) in 2021, he's probably going to be coaching for his job in 2022 and we'll be hearing about a new rebuild with Abrams and a new QB.
Things really get complicated if the Giants have another 6 or below win season. Imo, they really need to be 9-7 at minimum. If they go 6-10 again, now Judge is coaching for his life in 2022 which is not ideal.
I’m sure Mara is banking on a 9+ win season, this allows multiple things:
1. It makes transitioning to Abrams a much easier sell.
2. It takes pressure off of Judge for 2022 and brings some much needed stability to the coaching staff.
3. Gettleman can say (for his ego) he got it turned around and go to Cape Cod.
Abrams being a cap guy would hopefully lead to an outside hire to focus on personnel, assistant GM. It would also put more emphasis on personnel on the coaching staff since that isn’t Abrams background.
I don’t think that is bad either, I can live with that. Things really get messy if it’s another <6 win season.
I think we will be closer to 6 wins than 9. Much fell our way last year. Wentz/Pederson and injuries in Philly, Dak and injuries in Dallas, WFT shitshow at QB. We can't expect that next year. Our roster is thin. We need a FA home run and a draft that produces an impact player or it is going be a rough road.
It needs to be better than that. It should not take this long to put together a team to win 9 games. This is a crappy division, another 6 win season is a disaster imo.
I expect to be worse defensively, and have worse health luck
I think the offense is going to have to be a lot better to get to 8-8. I think a slight improvement only gets us back to 6-10, and the same output could get us to 3 or 4 wins.
Even if you like some of Gettleman's moves, and you stick to the excuse that he inherited a terrible roster thanks to lack of serious planning by Reese, the results can't be defended. Not only do we have 15 wins in 3 years, but we still have a very problematic roster. In 3 years Gettleman has almost completely turned over the roster, yet we are still in the middle of a rebuild, we still have no depth at several positions, we still have mediocre to worse starters at several positions, and we still have huge question marks at several critical positions. I like Judge and I think he has the organization heading in the right direction. But, any future success is 100% dependent on a ridiculously successful off season this year. We must straighten out the OL once and for all. We must get a legit #1 WR. We must get a consistent pass rusher or two or 3. We must straighten out CB2 and we must get at least one LB not named Martinez to play at an impactful level. And, after all that, we have to be 100% correct about Jones. That's a Hell of a lot.
Good summary. Bottom line is we have a lot of holes to fill and still have a lot of question marks with the current roster.
-- Barkley returning from injury.
-- Jones figuring it out.
-- Do we really have any OL solutions to count on.
-- Engram's status.
-- Pass rush.
-- Is it really smart to re-sign LW.
-- Etc.
Team seems to have found two good coaches in Judge and Graham. But after that, what on this team inspires you as a fan?
RE: I expect to be worse defensively, and have worse health luck
I think the offense is going to have to be a lot better to get to 8-8. I think a slight improvement only gets us back to 6-10, and the same output could get us to 3 or 4 wins.
Not good.
If that’s the case, Abrams cannot be the successor. Like you said, a draft simulation generated by a computer would yield better results.
2021 needs to be better, a big jump. If not, this has been a massive failure. I just see no way 6-10 again is acceptable. That would really tell me the Barkley, Jones & Thomas premium picks have not worked.
Even if you like some of Gettleman's moves, and you stick to the excuse that he inherited a terrible roster thanks to lack of serious planning by Reese, the results can't be defended. Not only do we have 15 wins in 3 years, but we still have a very problematic roster. In 3 years Gettleman has almost completely turned over the roster, yet we are still in the middle of a rebuild, we still have no depth at several positions, we still have mediocre to worse starters at several positions, and we still have huge question marks at several critical positions. I like Judge and I think he has the organization heading in the right direction. But, any future success is 100% dependent on a ridiculously successful off season this year. We must straighten out the OL once and for all. We must get a legit #1 WR. We must get a consistent pass rusher or two or 3. We must straighten out CB2 and we must get at least one LB not named Martinez to play at an impactful level. And, after all that, we have to be 100% correct about Jones. That's a Hell of a lot.
Good summary. Bottom line is we have a lot of holes to fill and still have a lot of question marks with the current roster.
-- Barkley returning from injury.
-- Jones figuring it out.
-- Do we really have any OL solutions to count on.
-- Engram's status.
-- Pass rush.
-- Is it really smart to re-sign LW.
-- Etc.
Team seems to have found two good coaches in Judge and Graham. But after that, what on this team inspires you as a fan?
IO think the staff as a whole is reason to feel good. This was a very well coached team.
RE: Some of you have unreasonable expectations. It's only been
three years. And if you take off Year 1 because Gettleman was strong-armed into sticking with Eli its really only been two years.
And if you don't count sleeping, bathroom breaks, sitting in traffic, etc. its really probably only one year.
And how much can you really do in one year...
Here's the complicated thing.
Part of me thinks the drafting of Barkley was part of the decision to make one more run with Eli - by giving him the best weapon the team could get its hands on and rolling the dice.
If so, then Barkley should correctly be seen as a part of that wasted decision, not a part of where the Giants should be going.
That being said - it was Gettleman's decision still to stick with Eli. If it were an owner's mandate that he disagreed with, he could've simply declined the job. He owns it by agreeing to those terms - if that's what went down.
where you lose me is this thinking that you can just replace Barkley with X running back and get similar results. We've seen what Barkley can do as a player, not many in the NFL can do it. Saying things like "just trade him, RBs aren't valued that high and their expiration date is quicker" means that you must have an awesome replacement in mind right? We are talking about an elite talent at the position. You don't just replace him with Wayne Gallman and expect the same results, as we saw in 2020
The numbers disagree with you. You can get winning production from an average RB. Of course you run into trouble if you have scrubs.
Tying up too much money into the RB position is a waste of resources. On top of which, Barkley isn't the superstar you seem to think he is.
where you lose me is this thinking that you can just replace Barkley with X running back and get similar results. We've seen what Barkley can do as a player, not many in the NFL can do it. Saying things like "just trade him, RBs aren't valued that high and their expiration date is quicker" means that you must have an awesome replacement in mind right? We are talking about an elite talent at the position. You don't just replace him with Wayne Gallman and expect the same results, as we saw in 2020
What do you define as results? You don't need a Saquon Barkley to win championships or have a league-best rushing game. From that perspective, yes, he is replaceable no matter what his highlight tape shows. This isn't to disrespect the player. It's simply fact. yeah, he has a rare collection of skills. The Giants had a league-leading rushing game with Brandon Jacobs and Derrick Ward. Put both those guys together in a lab and they don't equal Barkley.
It needs to be better than that. It should not take this long to put together a team to win 9 games. This is a crappy division, another 6 win season is a disaster imo.
IKR. But I don't expect the teams in our division to be as bad in 2021. Their rosters look better than ours to me. People talk a ton about the Barkley injury but he has to prove he can beat the run blitz. He dances and if it is play action, his blocking is very suspect. It is a bad combination. Run blitz on first down, if it is run Barkley will go laterally for no gain or a loss. If it is play action, or checked off to a pass, Barkley is now pass blocking. That is EXACTLY where I want him as a defensive coordinator. DJ Jones and pressure, not so great results. 2nd and long is not a great way to sustained drives.
I am just tired of double digit loss season and remain unconvinced it is about to change. I am in the "Show Me" before I believe it stage of my NY Giant fandom.
I think if the Giants keep DG after this season its a foregone conclusion he extends SB. If however DG is jettisoned the new GM may not want to invest a huge contract in the RB position as one of his first decisions on the job.
I think if the Giants keep DG after this season its a foregone conclusion he extends SB. If however DG is jettisoned the new GM may not want to invest a huge contract in the RB position as one of his first decisions on the job.
In order for it to be worth doing for us, the contract would need to be heavily discounted. The guaranteed money for RB's is already low, see CMC/Kamara and that's for 2 guys coming off career years not injuries.
I just don't see him taking a huge discount when he's already guaranteed $10m this year + the 5th year option that we likely be another $10-11m.
Yearning for a discount with a Barkley extension isn't enticing for either side right now in my view.
He'd have to take a hell of a discount for me to get on board with an extension now.
I'd guess in the $13 million area.
He'd have to take a hell of a discount for me to get on board with an extension now.
Totally agree. He’s missed almost a full season (2020 knee) and was hampered much of the prior season with that high ankle sprain. This is the exact approach I would take. Let him play this year, if he’s healthy pick up the 5th year option. If he becomes the next Reggie Bush we at least didn’t shell out tons of cash for little impact to our winning %.
Gamble on an injured running back? Tossing out non-required guaranteed salaries, particularly "more than the usual"?
OP - This is beyond silly.
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The owner loves the kid. I think he is getting signed to a second contract. I would gamble on him right now. I think he makes it back from injury. I know he could gamble on himself but if he gets injured again, the big second contract is gone. 4 years 40 million extension, give him more than usually guaranteed.
Gamble on an injured running back? Tossing out non-required guaranteed salaries, particularly "more than the usual"?
OP - This is beyond silly.
Do you think he is working hard and will recover? How strongly do you feel about it?
For me? Very strongly.
Do you feel based on comments by the owner and GM that we will sign hem to another contract?
For me? Even more strongly OK?
What kind of year do you feel SB will have in 2021?
For me? Exceeds his rookie year.
If all of the above turn out to be true, how big will that second contract be?
Fucking gigantic.
I don't want to pay that. There has to be some part of Barkley that is worried losing that big payday. If we were to gamble on him now, I think we could get a bargain.
This is a friendly talk on a Monday where we speculate. I want to thank everyone for being open to discussion.
Overpaying for recovered ones on a second contract aren't either, but don't see the point of just accelerating a similarly poor decision.
But agree its all speculative.
I imagine there is almost zero chance of an extension prior to the end of the 2021 season.
Overpaying for recovered ones on a second contract aren't either, but don't see the point of just accelerating a similarly poor decision.
But agree its all speculative.
I could get behind the tag solutions.
Only thing I am really against is making him the highest paid back in the sport.
just no.
I imagine there is almost zero chance of an extension prior to the end of the 2021 season.
I think he exceeds his rookie year in 2021. This comes from that premise on my part.
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He has played 16 games just once out of his three years in the league and is coming off a serious injury. How much of a discount do you think he is giving? Honestly, I would expect Barkley doesn't want to sign an extension now either, since his market value can't really go much lower unless he is not the same RB when he comes back.
I imagine there is almost zero chance of an extension prior to the end of the 2021 season.
I hear you but what if he injures the same leg again in 2021? $40 million with some guarantees makes sure your family is set for generations. 4 years is not forever and if he outplays the contract he has options.
How would a 4 year/$40M contract that kicks in after his current one (as suggested in the article) pay him all of that money if he injures his leg again next year? If you are suggesting the Giants fully guarantee his contract I think that is insane.
I also don't think Saquon is a guy who is trying to hedge his bets on his health. I imagine he is approaching this year as an opportunity to show he is the top back in the league and worthy of a contract that reflects that.
I think that article is largely silly.
Even teams with good OLs like Dallas and the Rams probably wish they hadn't signed Elliot or Gurley to huge deals.
So yeah, I wouldn't extend him now.
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if he allowed him to sign a team-sweetheart deal now coming off injury. Basically playing the fear or injury against him.
Yes and no. Will his agent have done his job if he injures the same leg in 2021? He plays the game in such a way that he will be unable to limit the torque on that joint. If I were his father I might advise him to take 4/40 now instead of gambling on 5/75 because if the same joint goes he is done.
Which is the exact reason if I am the Giants I say "let's talk a year from now."
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In comment 15158621 Mike from Ohio said:
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He has played 16 games just once out of his three years in the league and is coming off a serious injury. How much of a discount do you think he is giving? Honestly, I would expect Barkley doesn't want to sign an extension now either, since his market value can't really go much lower unless he is not the same RB when he comes back.
I imagine there is almost zero chance of an extension prior to the end of the 2021 season.
I hear you but what if he injures the same leg again in 2021? $40 million with some guarantees makes sure your family is set for generations. 4 years is not forever and if he outplays the contract he has options.
How would a 4 year/$40M contract that kicks in after his current one (as suggested in the article) pay him all of that money if he injures his leg again next year? If you are suggesting the Giants fully guarantee his contract I think that is insane.
I also don't think Saquon is a guy who is trying to hedge his bets on his health. I imagine he is approaching this year as an opportunity to show he is the top back in the league and worthy of a contract that reflects that.
I think that article is largely silly.
But please, don't argue against a fully guaranteed contract, that is fiction.
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In comment 15158639 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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if he allowed him to sign a team-sweetheart deal now coming off injury. Basically playing the fear or injury against him.
Yes and no. Will his agent have done his job if he injures the same leg in 2021? He plays the game in such a way that he will be unable to limit the torque on that joint. If I were his father I might advise him to take 4/40 now instead of gambling on 5/75 because if the same joint goes he is done.
Which is the exact reason if I am the Giants I say "let's talk a year from now."
My premise is based on SB exceeding his rookie production and what the contract demands will be after. This is absolutely a gamble for both sides, but because of the risks for both sides, I think there is compromise that could work.
Seriously, game this out.
Running back is the mist fungible position in the game. Great backs can often have their production replaced by two or three lesser backs at far less money. The Bucs son the Super Bowl with a solid rushing attack and they have Fournette and Jones and, trust me, they won't spend a ton to retain Fournette. They'll find the next guy up. You just don;t need a supreme talent at RB to win. And if you overpay it is probably a hindrance.
As to the risk, why would the Giants pay a back long term who has Barkley's injury profile at the moment. You don't know what you are paying for. It is questionable to extend Barkley, or any top running back, when they are playing at an all-pro level, why would you pay him when he can't stay on the field. Try to take emotion out of the equation. Most long term, high dollar, RB deals turn out poorly for the team. Why would we bet Barkley is an outlier, especially at this stage?
Finally, let's think about the risk/reward. The upside of signing Barkley long term now is that you get a discount on a player who performs at top-3 at the position - that's the hop, right? And even if he is healthy that performance level is not at all certain. But let's assume he will do it. Well we can have that performance level for his 4th yr, his 5th year rookie season, and two franchise tags. If he's the best back in the game and we get him for franchise dollars, that will be a huge boon. It's basically what you get with the long term deal, with far less risk. It's kind of the obvious play.
Seriously, game this out.
Running back is the mist fungible position in the game. Great backs can often have their production replaced by two or three lesser backs at far less money. The Bucs son the Super Bowl with a solid rushing attack and they have Fournette and Jones and, trust me, they won't spend a ton to retain Fournette. They'll find the next guy up. You just don;t need a supreme talent at RB to win. And if you overpay it is probably a hindrance.
As to the risk, why would the Giants pay a back long term who has Barkley's injury profile at the moment. You don't know what you are paying for. It is questionable to extend Barkley, or any top running back, when they are playing at an all-pro level, why would you pay him when he can't stay on the field. Try to take emotion out of the equation. Most long term, high dollar, RB deals turn out poorly for the team. Why would we bet Barkley is an outlier, especially at this stage?
Finally, let's think about the risk/reward. The upside of signing Barkley long term now is that you get a discount on a player who performs at top-3 at the position - that's the hop, right? And even if he is healthy that performance level is not at all certain. But let's assume he will do it. Well we can have that performance level for his 4th yr, his 5th year rookie season, and two franchise tags. If he's the best back in the game and we get him for franchise dollars, that will be a huge boon. It's basically what you get with the long term deal, with far less risk. It's kind of the obvious play.
I hate this plan - but it's clearly the right move for the organization.
I feel bad for NFL RBs - b/c this is how the good ones should be treated moving forward.
His pass blocking may be some of the worst I have seen. He lacks the desire for contact in blocking as well as running. thats a bad thing for a RB coming off injury. The man has all the talent in the world but his problem is in his head and Im not sure that can be fixed. I would look to draft a RB in the 3rd round or later and hope for the best. maybe even a cluster draft like we did at LB abd have several guys fill the need. I dont see SB as the guy we drafted unfortunately. great kid, great talent but doesnt seem like a football player. maybe im worng but until he shows a willingness for contact he's not a guy I can count on in a big spot.
If he never got injured and had a productive 2020 i'd be all for an early extension but those are the breaks, unfortunately.
Either way, I think there is virtually no change of it happening anyway because it is one of those rare options that is a bad deal for both sides.
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to extend Barkley now. As it made no sense to spend the #2 pick of the draft on him. What is the possible upside of resigning him? He is not going to agree to some massive discount. Whatever he demands will surely have great risk for the team.
Seriously, game this out.
Running back is the mist fungible position in the game. Great backs can often have their production replaced by two or three lesser backs at far less money. The Bucs son the Super Bowl with a solid rushing attack and they have Fournette and Jones and, trust me, they won't spend a ton to retain Fournette. They'll find the next guy up. You just don;t need a supreme talent at RB to win. And if you overpay it is probably a hindrance.
As to the risk, why would the Giants pay a back long term who has Barkley's injury profile at the moment. You don't know what you are paying for. It is questionable to extend Barkley, or any top running back, when they are playing at an all-pro level, why would you pay him when he can't stay on the field. Try to take emotion out of the equation. Most long term, high dollar, RB deals turn out poorly for the team. Why would we bet Barkley is an outlier, especially at this stage?
Finally, let's think about the risk/reward. The upside of signing Barkley long term now is that you get a discount on a player who performs at top-3 at the position - that's the hop, right? And even if he is healthy that performance level is not at all certain. But let's assume he will do it. Well we can have that performance level for his 4th yr, his 5th year rookie season, and two franchise tags. If he's the best back in the game and we get him for franchise dollars, that will be a huge boon. It's basically what you get with the long term deal, with far less risk. It's kind of the obvious play.
I hate this plan - but it's clearly the right move for the organization.
I feel bad for NFL RBs - b/c this is how the good ones should be treated moving forward.
that's the NFL as it is. The rules changes and evolution of offensive philosophy brought us here. it's better to be a receiver.
Either way, I think there is virtually no change of it happening anyway because it is one of those rare options that is a bad deal for both sides.
Yes, suggested the same Mike.
His injury was just brutal. If he was healthy and performing in 2020, you sign him to an extension now, eat the big money in his most productive years and then move on maybe a year early versus several years late.
Now it’s purgatory.
Let Barkley play out 2021.
If he returns to his 2018/19 form, and it's a positive 2021 campaign, look to trade SB next offseason. It's the ideal outcome and SB should be at his highest market value.
If he's struggles with production/injuries, then you need to consider either cutting him or maybe trading him next offseason. Take the cap hit and move on.
Essentially l don't like any idea of keeping him past 2021. We can find other cheaper solutions at RB.
This.
2018 was his best season. That year the average play to Barkley (any touch + incompletions intended for him) went for 5.3 yards.
The average play league wide that year went for 5.6 yards.
I don't think Barkley's a great running back. I don't think he makes great decisions at and behind the LOS, and we know he's a poor blocker.
What he IS great at is being an open field runner. I think getting him out of the backfield and put in the slot more (especially on third down) is a better use of what he does well. Do that, and paying him will make a lot more sense.
I agree we need to use him differently but your assessment is misleading.
I agree we need to use him differently but your assessment is misleading.
Because I'm not comparing him to other backs. I'm talking about the best way to use him.
Let Barkley play out 2021.
If he returns to his 2018/19 form, and it's a positive 2021 campaign, look to trade SB next offseason. It's the ideal outcome and SB should be at his highest market value.
If he's struggles with production/injuries, then you need to consider either cutting him or maybe trading him next offseason. Take the cap hit and move on.
Essentially l don't like any idea of keeping him past 2021. We can find other cheaper solutions at RB.
I am coming from the universe in which the NY Giants, owned by Mara are signing him to a second contract unless video comes out showing him smacking a woman in the middle of Times Square.
In that universe, I am willing to gamble on signing him to friendlier deal before he proves it in 2021. I think he is going to have such a monster year that it will be PR nightmare not to sign him.
I don't want to get locked into the largest annual contract a RB has ever signed for 5 years...Nope, don't want that. That is where I believe we are headed.
He also got those stats despite an inept OL, another reason why its misleading. He led the league in 2018 getting hit behind the LOS (iirc), can't just ignore that.
Look I know it's not the popular move but the smartest approach is to hope he plays well in 2021 and then trade him. The evidence against paying running backs is overwhelming at this point, and we've seen enough to know that Barkley isn't special enough to warrant being considered an exception.
Let Barkley play out 2021.
If he returns to his 2018/19 form, and it's a positive 2021 campaign, look to trade SB next offseason. It's the ideal outcome and SB should be at his highest market value.
If he's struggles with production/injuries, then you need to consider either cutting him or maybe trading him next offseason. Take the cap hit and move on.
Essentially l don't like any idea of keeping him past 2021. We can find other cheaper solutions at RB.
This...
He shouldn't be on the team past 2021. The 20201 money is guaranteed so the Giants are on the hook for it anyway.
After that, if it's a binary choice I agree with Essex (it isn't binary obviously) and let him walk (not cut) and maybe get a comp pick.
I agree with Terps, I don't think he is a very good RB either. RBs need to do more than be great in open space.
Best outcome is if he can be traded for a high 3rd or low 2nd. However, I can't see DG ever doing this.
Naturally, I can’t accept those conditions so I feel compelled to discuss what a well managed team would do... ; )
Look I know it's not the popular move but the smartest approach is to hope he plays well in 2021 and then trade him. The evidence against paying running backs is overwhelming at this point, and we've seen enough to know that Barkley isn't special enough to warrant being considered an exception.
The OL needs to improve with or without Barkley.
It works. Why we felt the need to re-invent the wheel that got us two more rings with I'll never understand.
Ever since Coughlin left the Giants have seemingly about-faced on philosophies that they built title-winning teams around and tried to sell it as "the right way".
Ezekiel Elliot's AAV is $15M. Jack Conklin's is $14M. Trent Williams's is $15M. Joe Thuney's is $15M.
If trading Barkley = someone on that level + a first round OL, it seems to me that's a good allocation of resources.
It works. Why we felt the need to re-invent the wheel that got us two more rings with I'll never understand.
Ever since Coughlin left the Giants have seemingly about-faced on philosophies that they built title-winning teams around and tried to sell it as "the right way".
It works when the rest is in place. The Giants haven't been successful at it since the SB runs so I'm overall skeptical of this approach.
If you are giving me Tom Brady, the OL, and those 3 or 4 WR's, of course I'm taking that over a RB.
Now you're really in purgatory.
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with RB by committee. The Giants won a super bowl the same way.
It works. Why we felt the need to re-invent the wheel that got us two more rings with I'll never understand.
Ever since Coughlin left the Giants have seemingly about-faced on philosophies that they built title-winning teams around and tried to sell it as "the right way".
It works when the rest is in place. The Giants haven't been successful at it since the SB runs so I'm overall skeptical of this approach.
If you are giving me Tom Brady, the OL, and those 3 or 4 WR's, of course I'm taking that over a RB.
Well, the trick to that is having guys on good contracts deals. I think tampa is only paying Brady and Evans and Smith (The LT) big money on offense.
Naturally, I can’t accept those conditions so I feel compelled to discuss what a well managed team would do... ; )
I wish we did not draft him based on everything that has happened since. The ROI has been abysmal. That said, I would wager we resign him. I would also wager that he has a great year in 2021. SO that is where I am. Trying to minimize the inevitable.
For us, what happens if he has a big year in 2021? He is going to cost a fortune.
It is a gamble for certain.
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For us, why would we commit to a longer term without seeing his health and knee in action? For him, why would he sign at a deep discount now, instead of betting on himself, provided he is healthy?
For him, what does he get if injures the same knee in camp? No more contracts.
For us, what happens if he has a big year in 2021? He is going to cost a fortune.
It is a gamble for certain.
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I get your point for sure. You are taking into account the Mara factor - which he said in the State of the Union that he expects SB to be here for a “very long time” - and building that into your assessment. And how to best manage those circumstances going forward.
Naturally, I can’t accept those conditions so I feel compelled to discuss what a well managed team would do... ; )
It is not just what he said, it is what they have done in the past as a franchise. Barkley is catnip to Mara. Team first, hard working, lead by example superstar that sells merchandise and puts fannies in the seats(when we return). I own my business, Football a business, we can never forget that.
I wish we did not draft him based on everything that has happened since. The ROI has been abysmal. That said, I would wager we resign him. I would also wager that he has a great year in 2021. SO that is where I am. Trying to minimize the inevitable.
Almost shocking posts like these can survive without being shouted down from rooftops.
Where are the defenders of All-Things Giants...asleep at the switch or have they finally seen the light on the RB value proposition?
Let Barkley play out 2021.
If he returns to his 2018/19 form, and it's a positive 2021 campaign, look to trade SB next offseason. It's the ideal outcome and SB should be at his highest market value.
If he's struggles with production/injuries, then you need to consider either cutting him or maybe trading him next offseason. Take the cap hit and move on.
Essentially l don't like any idea of keeping him past 2021. We can find other cheaper solutions at RB.
I tend to agree this is most suitable. Difficult to imagine a 1st round pick coming back as posted above though.
Would think a #2, maybe...
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In comment 15158782 bw in dc said:
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I get your point for sure. You are taking into account the Mara factor - which he said in the State of the Union that he expects SB to be here for a “very long time” - and building that into your assessment. And how to best manage those circumstances going forward.
Naturally, I can’t accept those conditions so I feel compelled to discuss what a well managed team would do... ; )
It is not just what he said, it is what they have done in the past as a franchise. Barkley is catnip to Mara. Team first, hard working, lead by example superstar that sells merchandise and puts fannies in the seats(when we return). I own my business, Football a business, we can never forget that.
I wish we did not draft him based on everything that has happened since. The ROI has been abysmal. That said, I would wager we resign him. I would also wager that he has a great year in 2021. SO that is where I am. Trying to minimize the inevitable.
Almost shocking posts like these can survive without being shouted down from rooftops.
Where are the defenders of All-Things Giants...asleep at the switch or have they finally seen the light on the RB value proposition?
/off soapbox
Because I would still believe the following prevails:
-- A RB's expiration date starts around year five.
-- RB's are one of the most fungible position in football.
-- RBBC makes more sense in today's NFL.
-- The ROI on a big contract for a RB is prohibitive.
-- If Jones is the solution at QB, there is even less reason to re-sign SB.
His pass blocking may be some of the worst I have seen. He lacks the desire for contact in blocking as well as running. thats a bad thing for a RB coming off injury. The man has all the talent in the world but his problem is in his head and Im not sure that can be fixed. I would look to draft a RB in the 3rd round or later and hope for the best. maybe even a cluster draft like we did at LB abd have several guys fill the need. I dont see SB as the guy we drafted unfortunately. great kid, great talent but doesnt seem like a football player. maybe im worng but until he shows a willingness for contact he's not a guy I can count on in a big spot.
I said this before, and while it may sound insane, Barkley - unless he changes his approach to the game - really isn't a RB. Using him as one with his poor pass blocking and boom or bust running style that can't consistently move the chains loses you ball games. I became even more convinced of this when watching the old videos from the 80s people have been posting and seeing Joe Morris play. It was a different game back then, but Morris was a better RB than Barkley has been. It's not even close.
Barkley is a guy who you scheme to get out into space where his gifts become an asset. I don't know if you'd call him a gadget player, a RB/WR, H-back, or what, but that's what he is.
I think this is why we'd see Shurmur limit Barkley's carries and we'd wonder why. He was a lousy head coach but he knows offense and I think he kind of realized this.
So is Barkley talented? Absolutely. But he's not a guy you break the bank for.
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Leave the current contract in place.
Let Barkley play out 2021.
If he returns to his 2018/19 form, and it's a positive 2021 campaign, look to trade SB next offseason. It's the ideal outcome and SB should be at his highest market value.
If he's struggles with production/injuries, then you need to consider either cutting him or maybe trading him next offseason. Take the cap hit and move on.
Essentially l don't like any idea of keeping him past 2021. We can find other cheaper solutions at RB.
I tend to agree this is most suitable. Difficult to imagine a 1st round pick coming back as posted above though.
Would think a #2, maybe...
I doubt we'd even get a 2nd rounder. The other 31 teams in the league don't have Gettleman as GM.
More John Mara bashing: I know I keep going on about how Mara is a fool. Case in point, assuring that SB will be on the team for a long time in public. That was a cringe worthy moronic statement that adds to the case that he can’t think two moves ahead. A public statement like that puts DG in a weak position as he negotiates a deal with SB and it complicates Judges job if he wants to adjust SB’s role. Mara just weakened his team’s position and gained nothing for it.
That’s the epitome of stupidity = no gain but increased risk.
For me, the player was not the mistake. I think he has/had the talent to warrant the pick. The problem, to me, is that he was picked, it would seem, to fix the offense by himself and to warrant sticking with Eli. The problem with that is the OL remained one of the worst OLs in the league. That has made his pick a waste.
More John Mara bashing: I know I keep going on about how Mara is a fool. Case in point, assuring that SB will be on the team for a long time in public. That was a cringe worthy moronic statement that adds to the case that he can’t think two moves ahead. A public statement like that puts DG in a weak position as he negotiates a deal with SB and it complicates Judges job if he wants to adjust SB’s role. Mara just weakened his team’s position and gained nothing for it.
That’s the epitome of stupidity = no gain but increased risk.
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Ok, so I think Barkley is a better player than Bush. Given what he is, the coaches need to find a way for Barkley to make this offense more dynamic. Take it as a coaching challenge.
More John Mara bashing: I know I keep going on about how Mara is a fool. Case in point, assuring that SB will be on the team for a long time in public. That was a cringe worthy moronic statement that adds to the case that he can’t think two moves ahead. A public statement like that puts DG in a weak position as he negotiates a deal with SB and it complicates Judges job if he wants to adjust SB’s role. Mara just weakened his team’s position and gained nothing for it.
That’s the epitome of stupidity = no gain but increased risk.
Exactly right.
Do you really think the statement puts DG in weaker negotiating position?
Nevertheless, what do you mean by it also complicates Judge's job, don't follow...
Also, to me it's clear there's no plan to trade him. Things can change, but unless DG is out and there's an unexpected sea change, he will remain a Giant.
I'm picturing Barkley's agent playing a recording of Mara saying this in their meeting and following it up with "your move".
I'm not privy to NFL contract negotiations but they likely aren't far off from anything else you haggle over. If i'm only willing to pay X a soundbyte of something I said in the past isn't going to change my mind. Barkley can be tagged or traded, no one is forcing us to sign anyone long term.
Re Judge, we all saw how Shurmur went away from SB when games were on the line. What if Judge decides SB isn't part of a winning formula? Suddenly, it's more than putting a prominent high pick on the bench, which is difficult enough. Now Judge has to be worry about the political relationship with the owner.
Mara's statement was an own goal. It makes me think he literally doesn't understand what is going on around him.
Re Judge, we all saw how Shurmur went away from SB when games were on the line. What if Judge decides SB isn't part of a winning formula? Suddenly, it's more than putting a prominent high pick on the bench, which is difficult enough. Now Judge has to be worry about the political relationship with the owner.
Mara's statement was an own goal. It makes me think he literally doesn't understand what is going on around him.
While not putting the NYG Front Office on a pedestal, it would be shocking if it weakened actual negotiations.
Also if Judge/Garrett change the offensive gameplan because its better to under-utilize Barkley then they need to produce the results. If they don't, then they will have much bigger problems than just dealing with how many snaps they should give Saquon to keep Mara happy.
Let Barkley play out 2021.
If he returns to his 2018/19 form, and it's a positive 2021 campaign, look to trade SB next offseason.
So....if he returns to form as a top 3 running back in football, you'd like him off the team?
Good thing you aren't the GM
Also, to me it's clear there's no plan to trade him. Things can change, but unless DG is out and there's an unexpected sea change, he will remain a Giant.
My OP is based on the premise that I strongly believe he his is going to exceed expectations for 2021. I do understand that my position is unrealistic with almost no comparable situation before. Has anyone ever been extended before they came back form injury? I think I remember one but I can't put a finger on it.
More John Mara bashing: I know I keep going on about how Mara is a fool. Case in point, assuring that SB will be on the team for a long time in public. That was a cringe worthy moronic statement that adds to the case that he can’t think two moves ahead. A public statement like that puts DG in a weak position as he negotiates a deal with SB and it complicates Judges job if he wants to adjust SB’s role. Mara just weakened his team’s position and gained nothing for it.
That’s the epitome of stupidity = no gain but increased risk.
Mara is too much like his father. And Rozelle is not around to hire George Young to save us from the way the Maras do things.
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You have to wait and see what SB is on the football field in 2021. He's got to demonstrate he can play football again, and at a level commensurate with an extension. They've got time to wait him out, and the overall value of his rookie will almost certainly be paid to him. He's also pocketing dollars pushing products, etc, in the NY TV area.
Also, to me it's clear there's no plan to trade him. Things can change, but unless DG is out and there's an unexpected sea change, he will remain a Giant.
I believe that last paragraph wholeheartedly. It is why I would gamble now before he proves it on the field. It is the only chance for a discount. The OL is going to be better next year, they invested in the experience of their young players and it will pay dividends.
My OP is based on the premise that I strongly believe he his is going to exceed expectations for 2021. I do understand that my position is unrealistic with almost no comparable situation before. Has anyone ever been extended before they came back form injury? I think I remember one but I can't put a finger on it.
I follow your thought process, but don't see them committing let's say $40-50M to him before the knee is proven. If they stick with his rookie deal he earns north of $30M, I would consider that a sunk cost so he's set for life either way.
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In comment 15159256 JonC said:
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You have to wait and see what SB is on the football field in 2021. He's got to demonstrate he can play football again, and at a level commensurate with an extension. They've got time to wait him out, and the overall value of his rookie will almost certainly be paid to him. He's also pocketing dollars pushing products, etc, in the NY TV area.
Also, to me it's clear there's no plan to trade him. Things can change, but unless DG is out and there's an unexpected sea change, he will remain a Giant.
I believe that last paragraph wholeheartedly. It is why I would gamble now before he proves it on the field. It is the only chance for a discount. The OL is going to be better next year, they invested in the experience of their young players and it will pay dividends.
My OP is based on the premise that I strongly believe he his is going to exceed expectations for 2021. I do understand that my position is unrealistic with almost no comparable situation before. Has anyone ever been extended before they came back form injury? I think I remember one but I can't put a finger on it.
I follow your thought process, but don't see them committing let's say $40-50M to him before the knee is proven. If they stick with his rookie deal he earns north of $30M, I would consider that a sunk cost so he's set for life either way.
Almost shocking posts like these can survive without being shouted down from rooftops.
Where are the defenders of All-Things Giants...asleep at the switch or have they finally seen the light on the RB value proposition?
Maybe they're still convened at their round table polishing off the remaining slices of Papa John's -- which they swear is good pizza with potential -- while listening to Matchbox 20, who they swear is a great band subjected to unfair criticism that we don't levy towards other bands.
Do you really think the statement puts DG in weaker negotiating position?
Nevertheless, what do you mean by it also complicates Judge's job, don't follow...
I doubt it would materially weaken DG's ability at the negotiation table, but I don't think it's wise for owners to spout off what could sound an awful lot like a mandate.
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Leave the current contract in place.
Let Barkley play out 2021.
If he returns to his 2018/19 form, and it's a positive 2021 campaign, look to trade SB next offseason.
So....if he returns to form as a top 3 running back in football, you'd like him off the team?
For the money he'd demand, yes. It's just very likely the tipping point on the production curve is not far away. So why chance it? Trust the football actuarial tables...
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for 2K next year, catch 100 passes for 1K yards and score 20 TDs. And we win the Super Bowl. Yet, I would still advocate that we don't re-sign Barkley.
Good thing you aren't the GM
I doubt after the three years of the Gentlemen Era I could do worse... ;)
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In comment 15158982 bw in dc said:
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for 2K next year, catch 100 passes for 1K yards and score 20 TDs. And we win the Super Bowl. Yet, I would still advocate that we don't re-sign Barkley.
Good thing you aren't the GM
I doubt after the three years of the Gentlemen Era I could do worse... ;)
This organization is closer to initiating a new rebuild under Judge+new GM than it is to competing.
Had all the actions under the Gettleman tenure simple been determined by a random number generator it likely would have turned out better.
This organization is closer to initiating a new rebuild under Judge+new GM than it is to competing.
Had all the actions under the Gettleman tenure simple been determined by a random number generator it likely would have turned out better.
I am about to wildly speculate.
Brass tax, DG stayed because Judge wanted him to. Not saying they gave him the power to hire whoever he wanted. I think they interviewed after the season and Judge said he worked well with DG.
I believe they they think they fixed the whole enchilada with Judge and are going to try to not to mess it up. I think they believe they hired they next Tomlin. We shall see.
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In comment 15158982 bw in dc said:
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for 2K next year, catch 100 passes for 1K yards and score 20 TDs. And we win the Super Bowl. Yet, I would still advocate that we don't re-sign Barkley.
Good thing you aren't the GM
I doubt after the three years of the Gentlemen Era I could do worse... ;)
The Gettleman Fan Club on BBI would convert over to the BW in DC Fan Club.
You and Fmic would be buddies...
I just don't see evidence Mara changing the model the Giants have been using for decades. I think we're seeing a continuation of what's gone on in the past - the GM and head coach are on different tracks, and the blame for failure alternates between them. Shurmur caught the blame before, now it's Gettleman's turn. After Gettleman is replaced by Abrams (the inevitability of that statement is indicative of the dysfunction), the onus will be on Judge to perform.
I know Judge looks great, but he just went 6-10. If the Giants go 6-10 again (or worse) in 2021, he's probably going to be coaching for his job in 2022 and we'll be hearing about a new rebuild with Abrams and a new QB.
I just don't see evidence Mara changing the model the Giants have been using for decades. I think we're seeing a continuation of what's gone on in the past - the GM and head coach are on different tracks, and the blame for failure alternates between them. Shurmur caught the blame before, now it's Gettleman's turn. After Gettleman is replaced by Abrams (the inevitability of that statement is indicative of the dysfunction), the onus will be on Judge to perform.
I know Judge looks great, but he just went 6-10. If the Giants go 6-10 again (or worse) in 2021, he's probably going to be coaching for his job in 2022 and we'll be hearing about a new rebuild with Abrams and a new QB.
I think they believe they hired "the guy" in Judge. They think the 2 worked well together. I suspect they have some kind of exit interview after the season and Judge likely said the pairing worked.
My wild speculation is they are quite pleased with themselves by the Judge hire. I agree with 6-10. Judge said everything "I" wanted to hear. I am personally more interested in results.
I get a little nervous when people tell me exactly what I want to hear. I think the ownership loves it. It is my belief DG got his job by telling them exactly what they wanted to hear about the roster.
15-33 is not a very high bar to exceed.
Well, among rational people, yes.
But there is a pretty loud group of posters who think that 15-33 is actually good considering the circumstances Gettleman inherited.
I read the excuses quite regularly...
-- Reese left a poor roster for DG.
-- Eli staying another year was more Mara, not DG.
-- DG selected a "generational player" with SB.
-- DG selected the right heir apparent with DJ.
-- DG has built a really good D.
-- DG now has the right pieces for the OL.
-- DG almost won a NFCE title this year.
-- Etc.
So when you understand all of this "context", it's actually a "good" 15-33.
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15-33 is not a very high bar to exceed.
Well, among rational people, yes.
But there is a pretty loud group of posters who think that 15-33 is actually good considering the circumstances Gettleman inherited.
I read the excuses quite regularly...
-- Reese left a poor roster for DG.
-- Eli staying another year was more Mara, not DG.
-- DG selected a "generational player" with SB.
-- DG selected the right heir apparent with DJ.
-- DG has built a really good D.
-- DG now has the right pieces for the OL.
-- DG almost won a NFCE title this year.
-- Etc.
So when you understand all of this "context", it's actually a "good" 15-33.
And if you don't count sleeping, bathroom breaks, sitting in traffic, etc. its really probably only one year.
And how much can you really do in one year...
I just don't see evidence Mara changing the model the Giants have been using for decades. I think we're seeing a continuation of what's gone on in the past - the GM and head coach are on different tracks, and the blame for failure alternates between them. Shurmur caught the blame before, now it's Gettleman's turn. After Gettleman is replaced by Abrams (the inevitability of that statement is indicative of the dysfunction), the onus will be on Judge to perform.
I know Judge looks great, but he just went 6-10. If the Giants go 6-10 again (or worse) in 2021, he's probably going to be coaching for his job in 2022 and we'll be hearing about a new rebuild with Abrams and a new QB.
Things really get complicated if the Giants have another 6 or below win season. Imo, they really need to be 9-7 at minimum. If they go 6-10 again, now Judge is coaching for his life in 2022 which is not ideal.
I’m sure Mara is banking on a 9+ win season, this allows multiple things:
1. It makes transitioning to Abrams a much easier sell.
2. It takes pressure off of Judge for 2022 and brings some much needed stability to the coaching staff.
3. Gettleman can say (for his ego) he got it turned around and go to Cape Cod.
Abrams being a cap guy would hopefully lead to an outside hire to focus on personnel, assistant GM. It would also put more emphasis on personnel on the coaching staff since that isn’t Abrams background.
I don’t think that is bad either, I can live with that. Things really get messy if it’s another <6 win season.
And if you don't count sleeping, bathroom breaks, sitting in traffic, etc. its really probably only one year.
And how much can you really do in one year...
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I'd be pleasantly surprised if Judge has that much power this early. If he did, why is Garrett still the OC (a job it seems clear Judge wants to give to Kitchens)?
I just don't see evidence Mara changing the model the Giants have been using for decades. I think we're seeing a continuation of what's gone on in the past - the GM and head coach are on different tracks, and the blame for failure alternates between them. Shurmur caught the blame before, now it's Gettleman's turn. After Gettleman is replaced by Abrams (the inevitability of that statement is indicative of the dysfunction), the onus will be on Judge to perform.
I know Judge looks great, but he just went 6-10. If the Giants go 6-10 again (or worse) in 2021, he's probably going to be coaching for his job in 2022 and we'll be hearing about a new rebuild with Abrams and a new QB.
Things really get complicated if the Giants have another 6 or below win season. Imo, they really need to be 9-7 at minimum. If they go 6-10 again, now Judge is coaching for his life in 2022 which is not ideal.
I’m sure Mara is banking on a 9+ win season, this allows multiple things:
1. It makes transitioning to Abrams a much easier sell.
2. It takes pressure off of Judge for 2022 and brings some much needed stability to the coaching staff.
3. Gettleman can say (for his ego) he got it turned around and go to Cape Cod.
Abrams being a cap guy would hopefully lead to an outside hire to focus on personnel, assistant GM. It would also put more emphasis on personnel on the coaching staff since that isn’t Abrams background.
I don’t think that is bad either, I can live with that. Things really get messy if it’s another <6 win season.
Not good.
Good summary. Bottom line is we have a lot of holes to fill and still have a lot of question marks with the current roster.
-- Barkley returning from injury.
-- Jones figuring it out.
-- Do we really have any OL solutions to count on.
-- Engram's status.
-- Pass rush.
-- Is it really smart to re-sign LW.
-- Etc.
Team seems to have found two good coaches in Judge and Graham. But after that, what on this team inspires you as a fan?
Not good.
If that’s the case, Abrams cannot be the successor. Like you said, a draft simulation generated by a computer would yield better results.
2021 needs to be better, a big jump. If not, this has been a massive failure. I just see no way 6-10 again is acceptable. That would really tell me the Barkley, Jones & Thomas premium picks have not worked.
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Even if you like some of Gettleman's moves, and you stick to the excuse that he inherited a terrible roster thanks to lack of serious planning by Reese, the results can't be defended. Not only do we have 15 wins in 3 years, but we still have a very problematic roster. In 3 years Gettleman has almost completely turned over the roster, yet we are still in the middle of a rebuild, we still have no depth at several positions, we still have mediocre to worse starters at several positions, and we still have huge question marks at several critical positions. I like Judge and I think he has the organization heading in the right direction. But, any future success is 100% dependent on a ridiculously successful off season this year. We must straighten out the OL once and for all. We must get a legit #1 WR. We must get a consistent pass rusher or two or 3. We must straighten out CB2 and we must get at least one LB not named Martinez to play at an impactful level. And, after all that, we have to be 100% correct about Jones. That's a Hell of a lot.
Good summary. Bottom line is we have a lot of holes to fill and still have a lot of question marks with the current roster.
-- Barkley returning from injury.
-- Jones figuring it out.
-- Do we really have any OL solutions to count on.
-- Engram's status.
-- Pass rush.
-- Is it really smart to re-sign LW.
-- Etc.
Team seems to have found two good coaches in Judge and Graham. But after that, what on this team inspires you as a fan?
And if you don't count sleeping, bathroom breaks, sitting in traffic, etc. its really probably only one year.
And how much can you really do in one year...
Here's the complicated thing.
Part of me thinks the drafting of Barkley was part of the decision to make one more run with Eli - by giving him the best weapon the team could get its hands on and rolling the dice.
If so, then Barkley should correctly be seen as a part of that wasted decision, not a part of where the Giants should be going.
That being said - it was Gettleman's decision still to stick with Eli. If it were an owner's mandate that he disagreed with, he could've simply declined the job. He owns it by agreeing to those terms - if that's what went down.
The numbers disagree with you. You can get winning production from an average RB. Of course you run into trouble if you have scrubs.
Tying up too much money into the RB position is a waste of resources. On top of which, Barkley isn't the superstar you seem to think he is.
What do you define as results? You don't need a Saquon Barkley to win championships or have a league-best rushing game. From that perspective, yes, he is replaceable no matter what his highlight tape shows. This isn't to disrespect the player. It's simply fact. yeah, he has a rare collection of skills. The Giants had a league-leading rushing game with Brandon Jacobs and Derrick Ward. Put both those guys together in a lab and they don't equal Barkley.
I am just tired of double digit loss season and remain unconvinced it is about to change. I am in the "Show Me" before I believe it stage of my NY Giant fandom.