I would like to try to extend him now at a discount because we are signing to second contract. IMHO a 2nd contract for SB is a forgone conclusion. Article on SB second contract - ( New Window )
But that's going to cost money, which we'll have less of if we pay Barkley.
Look I know it's not the popular move but the smartest approach is to hope he plays well in 2021 and then trade him. The evidence against paying running backs is overwhelming at this point, and we've seen enough to know that Barkley isn't special enough to warrant being considered an exception.
If he returns to his 2018/19 form, and it's a positive 2021 campaign, look to trade SB next offseason. It's the ideal outcome and SB should be at his highest market value.
If he's struggles with production/injuries, then you need to consider either cutting him or maybe trading him next offseason. Take the cap hit and move on.
Essentially l don't like any idea of keeping him past 2021. We can find other cheaper solutions at RB.
This...
He shouldn't be on the team past 2021. The 20201 money is guaranteed so the Giants are on the hook for it anyway.
After that, if it's a binary choice I agree with Essex (it isn't binary obviously) and let him walk (not cut) and maybe get a comp pick.
I agree with Terps, I don't think he is a very good RB either. RBs need to do more than be great in open space.
Best outcome is if he can be traded for a high 3rd or low 2nd. However, I can't see DG ever doing this.
I get your point for sure. You are taking into account the Mara factor - which he said in the State of the Union that he expects SB to be here for a “very long time” - and building that into your assessment. And how to best manage those circumstances going forward.
Naturally, I can’t accept those conditions so I feel compelled to discuss what a well managed team would do... ; )
But that's going to cost money, which we'll have less of if we pay Barkley.
Look I know it's not the popular move but the smartest approach is to hope he plays well in 2021 and then trade him. The evidence against paying running backs is overwhelming at this point, and we've seen enough to know that Barkley isn't special enough to warrant being considered an exception.
with RB by committee. The Giants won a super bowl the same way.
It works. Why we felt the need to re-invent the wheel that got us two more rings with I'll never understand.
Ever since Coughlin left the Giants have seemingly about-faced on philosophies that they built title-winning teams around and tried to sell it as "the right way".
but it isn't a slam dunk for me either. I just hope he comes back to 100% to open some of these doors. Right now everything is closed shut until atleast halfway through the 2021 season.
with RB by committee. The Giants won a super bowl the same way.
It works. Why we felt the need to re-invent the wheel that got us two more rings with I'll never understand.
Ever since Coughlin left the Giants have seemingly about-faced on philosophies that they built title-winning teams around and tried to sell it as "the right way".
It works when the rest is in place. The Giants haven't been successful at it since the SB runs so I'm overall skeptical of this approach.
If you are giving me Tom Brady, the OL, and those 3 or 4 WR's, of course I'm taking that over a RB.
The worst thing for either side is he gets hurt again
with RB by committee. The Giants won a super bowl the same way.
It works. Why we felt the need to re-invent the wheel that got us two more rings with I'll never understand.
Ever since Coughlin left the Giants have seemingly about-faced on philosophies that they built title-winning teams around and tried to sell it as "the right way".
It works when the rest is in place. The Giants haven't been successful at it since the SB runs so I'm overall skeptical of this approach.
If you are giving me Tom Brady, the OL, and those 3 or 4 WR's, of course I'm taking that over a RB.
Well, the trick to that is having guys on good contracts deals. I think tampa is only paying Brady and Evans and Smith (The LT) big money on offense.
For us, why would we commit to a longer term without seeing his health and knee in action? For him, why would he sign at a deep discount now, instead of betting on himself, provided he is healthy?
I get your point for sure. You are taking into account the Mara factor - which he said in the State of the Union that he expects SB to be here for a “very long time” - and building that into your assessment. And how to best manage those circumstances going forward.
Naturally, I can’t accept those conditions so I feel compelled to discuss what a well managed team would do... ; )
It is not just what he said, it is what they have done in the past as a franchise. Barkley is catnip to Mara. Team first, hard working, lead by example superstar that sells merchandise and puts fannies in the seats(when we return). I own my business, Football a business, we can never forget that.
I wish we did not draft him based on everything that has happened since. The ROI has been abysmal. That said, I would wager we resign him. I would also wager that he has a great year in 2021. SO that is where I am. Trying to minimize the inevitable.
For us, why would we commit to a longer term without seeing his health and knee in action? For him, why would he sign at a deep discount now, instead of betting on himself, provided he is healthy?
For him, what does he get if injures the same knee in camp? No more contracts.
For us, what happens if he has a big year in 2021? He is going to cost a fortune.
For us, why would we commit to a longer term without seeing his health and knee in action? For him, why would he sign at a deep discount now, instead of betting on himself, provided he is healthy?
For him, what does he get if injures the same knee in camp? No more contracts.
For us, what happens if he has a big year in 2021? He is going to cost a fortune.
It is a gamble for certain.
My point is, in order for the deal to be worth his while, it would be much for the Giants to risk. For it to be worth our while, it is likely not enough for him to commit.
I get your point for sure. You are taking into account the Mara factor - which he said in the State of the Union that he expects SB to be here for a “very long time” - and building that into your assessment. And how to best manage those circumstances going forward.
Naturally, I can’t accept those conditions so I feel compelled to discuss what a well managed team would do... ; )
It is not just what he said, it is what they have done in the past as a franchise. Barkley is catnip to Mara. Team first, hard working, lead by example superstar that sells merchandise and puts fannies in the seats(when we return). I own my business, Football a business, we can never forget that.
I wish we did not draft him based on everything that has happened since. The ROI has been abysmal. That said, I would wager we resign him. I would also wager that he has a great year in 2021. SO that is where I am. Trying to minimize the inevitable.
Almost shocking posts like these can survive without being shouted down from rooftops.
Where are the defenders of All-Things Giants...asleep at the switch or have they finally seen the light on the RB value proposition?
If he returns to his 2018/19 form, and it's a positive 2021 campaign, look to trade SB next offseason. It's the ideal outcome and SB should be at his highest market value.
If he's struggles with production/injuries, then you need to consider either cutting him or maybe trading him next offseason. Take the cap hit and move on.
Essentially l don't like any idea of keeping him past 2021. We can find other cheaper solutions at RB.
I tend to agree this is most suitable. Difficult to imagine a 1st round pick coming back as posted above though.
I get your point for sure. You are taking into account the Mara factor - which he said in the State of the Union that he expects SB to be here for a “very long time” - and building that into your assessment. And how to best manage those circumstances going forward.
Naturally, I can’t accept those conditions so I feel compelled to discuss what a well managed team would do... ; )
It is not just what he said, it is what they have done in the past as a franchise. Barkley is catnip to Mara. Team first, hard working, lead by example superstar that sells merchandise and puts fannies in the seats(when we return). I own my business, Football a business, we can never forget that.
I wish we did not draft him based on everything that has happened since. The ROI has been abysmal. That said, I would wager we resign him. I would also wager that he has a great year in 2021. SO that is where I am. Trying to minimize the inevitable.
Almost shocking posts like these can survive without being shouted down from rooftops.
Where are the defenders of All-Things Giants...asleep at the switch or have they finally seen the light on the RB value proposition?
We are having a reasonable discussion, why troll people? My guess as to why, I don't call the Giants, DG or the fans that support their decisions stupid. I chose not to use words that invite a hostile reply. When replying to people in the thread that disagreed with my OP, I recognize their points and do not dismiss them. I accept other people's views as valid and leave open the option of changing my mind. Just like when I speak to people, I listen to them instead of waiting for my turn to speak. There is a subtle difference.
for 2K next year, catch 100 passes for 1K yards and score 20 TDs. And we win the Super Bowl. Yet, I would still advocate that we don't re-sign Barkley.
Because I would still believe the following prevails:
-- A RB's expiration date starts around year five.
-- RB's are one of the most fungible position in football.
-- RBBC makes more sense in today's NFL.
-- The ROI on a big contract for a RB is prohibitive.
-- If Jones is the solution at QB, there is even less reason to re-sign SB.
He hasnt earned the 2nd contract at Market value. I think it would benefit both sides to wait. I dodnt want to draft a RB 2nd overall in the 1st place but now after 3 seasons it looks like a horrible pick. He had a very good rookie season followed by average and then a few bad games into his 3rd season a major injury. He will not be 100% this season so he will probably have another avgerage season at best. Im sorry, but as much as I like the kids attitude hes not a top 5 back at this point and may never be.
His pass blocking may be some of the worst I have seen. He lacks the desire for contact in blocking as well as running. thats a bad thing for a RB coming off injury. The man has all the talent in the world but his problem is in his head and Im not sure that can be fixed. I would look to draft a RB in the 3rd round or later and hope for the best. maybe even a cluster draft like we did at LB abd have several guys fill the need. I dont see SB as the guy we drafted unfortunately. great kid, great talent but doesnt seem like a football player. maybe im worng but until he shows a willingness for contact he's not a guy I can count on in a big spot.
I said this before, and while it may sound insane, Barkley - unless he changes his approach to the game - really isn't a RB. Using him as one with his poor pass blocking and boom or bust running style that can't consistently move the chains loses you ball games. I became even more convinced of this when watching the old videos from the 80s people have been posting and seeing Joe Morris play. It was a different game back then, but Morris was a better RB than Barkley has been. It's not even close.
Barkley is a guy who you scheme to get out into space where his gifts become an asset. I don't know if you'd call him a gadget player, a RB/WR, H-back, or what, but that's what he is.
I think this is why we'd see Shurmur limit Barkley's carries and we'd wonder why. He was a lousy head coach but he knows offense and I think he kind of realized this.
So is Barkley talented? Absolutely. But he's not a guy you break the bank for.
If he returns to his 2018/19 form, and it's a positive 2021 campaign, look to trade SB next offseason. It's the ideal outcome and SB should be at his highest market value.
If he's struggles with production/injuries, then you need to consider either cutting him or maybe trading him next offseason. Take the cap hit and move on.
Essentially l don't like any idea of keeping him past 2021. We can find other cheaper solutions at RB.
I tend to agree this is most suitable. Difficult to imagine a 1st round pick coming back as posted above though.
Would think a #2, maybe...
I doubt we'd even get a 2nd rounder. The other 31 teams in the league don't have Gettleman as GM.
Ok, so I think Barkley is a better player than Bush. Given what he is, the coaches need to find a way for Barkley to make this offense more dynamic. Take it as a coaching challenge.
More John Mara bashing: I know I keep going on about how Mara is a fool. Case in point, assuring that SB will be on the team for a long time in public. That was a cringe worthy moronic statement that adds to the case that he can’t think two moves ahead. A public statement like that puts DG in a weak position as he negotiates a deal with SB and it complicates Judges job if he wants to adjust SB’s role. Mara just weakened his team’s position and gained nothing for it.
That’s the epitome of stupidity = no gain but increased risk.
If he's healthy, he absolutely has the talent to warrant a 2nd deal. BUT, that doesn't mean it's a good idea. I have always been a fan of drafting him. But, right now, I think bw's approach is the correct one. Even if healthy and putting up the numbers we want and expect, it doesn't change the fact that he's a RB through 4 years and already has 1 knee surgery. That's not a combination that warrants an investment. The odds are against it working out. That doesn't mean it woudln't. But, it also doesn't mean we should take the risk.
For me, the player was not the mistake. I think he has/had the talent to warrant the pick. The problem, to me, is that he was picked, it would seem, to fix the offense by himself and to warrant sticking with Eli. The problem with that is the OL remained one of the worst OLs in the league. That has made his pick a waste.
RE: Ha I read literally every post till Terps’ last one!
Ok, so I think Barkley is a better player than Bush. Given what he is, the coaches need to find a way for Barkley to make this offense more dynamic. Take it as a coaching challenge.
More John Mara bashing: I know I keep going on about how Mara is a fool. Case in point, assuring that SB will be on the team for a long time in public. That was a cringe worthy moronic statement that adds to the case that he can’t think two moves ahead. A public statement like that puts DG in a weak position as he negotiates a deal with SB and it complicates Judges job if he wants to adjust SB’s role. Mara just weakened his team’s position and gained nothing for it.
That’s the epitome of stupidity = no gain but increased risk.
Exactly right.
RE: RE: Ha I read literally every post till Terps’ last one!
Ok, so I think Barkley is a better player than Bush. Given what he is, the coaches need to find a way for Barkley to make this offense more dynamic. Take it as a coaching challenge.
More John Mara bashing: I know I keep going on about how Mara is a fool. Case in point, assuring that SB will be on the team for a long time in public. That was a cringe worthy moronic statement that adds to the case that he can’t think two moves ahead. A public statement like that puts DG in a weak position as he negotiates a deal with SB and it complicates Judges job if he wants to adjust SB’s role. Mara just weakened his team’s position and gained nothing for it.
That’s the epitome of stupidity = no gain but increased risk.
Exactly right.
Do you really think the statement puts DG in weaker negotiating position?
Nevertheless, what do you mean by it also complicates Judge's job, don't follow...
You have to wait and see what SB is on the football field in 2021. He's got to demonstrate he can play football again, and at a level commensurate with an extension. They've got time to wait him out, and the overall value of his rookie will almost certainly be paid to him. He's also pocketing dollars pushing products, etc, in the NY TV area.
Also, to me it's clear there's no plan to trade him. Things can change, but unless DG is out and there's an unexpected sea change, he will remain a Giant.
say they want their 1st round picks on the team for a long time.
I'm picturing Barkley's agent playing a recording of Mara saying this in their meeting and following it up with "your move".
I'm not privy to NFL contract negotiations but they likely aren't far off from anything else you haggle over. If i'm only willing to pay X a soundbyte of something I said in the past isn't going to change my mind. Barkley can be tagged or traded, no one is forcing us to sign anyone long term.
Yes, I think the owner coming out and saying a player will be
on the team in the future weakens the negotiating hand.
Re Judge, we all saw how Shurmur went away from SB when games were on the line. What if Judge decides SB isn't part of a winning formula? Suddenly, it's more than putting a prominent high pick on the bench, which is difficult enough. Now Judge has to be worry about the political relationship with the owner.
Mara's statement was an own goal. It makes me think he literally doesn't understand what is going on around him.
RE: Yes, I think the owner coming out and saying a player will be
on the team in the future weakens the negotiating hand.
Re Judge, we all saw how Shurmur went away from SB when games were on the line. What if Judge decides SB isn't part of a winning formula? Suddenly, it's more than putting a prominent high pick on the bench, which is difficult enough. Now Judge has to be worry about the political relationship with the owner.
Mara's statement was an own goal. It makes me think he literally doesn't understand what is going on around him.
While not putting the NYG Front Office on a pedestal, it would be shocking if it weakened actual negotiations.
Also if Judge/Garrett change the offensive gameplan because its better to under-utilize Barkley then they need to produce the results. If they don't, then they will have much bigger problems than just dealing with how many snaps they should give Saquon to keep Mara happy.
for 2K next year, catch 100 passes for 1K yards and score 20 TDs. And we win the Super Bowl. Yet, I would still advocate that we don't re-sign Barkley.
where you lose me is this thinking that you can just replace Barkley with X running back and get similar results. We've seen what Barkley can do as a player, not many in the NFL can do it. Saying things like "just trade him, RBs aren't valued that high and their expiration date is quicker" means that you must have an awesome replacement in mind right? We are talking about an elite talent at the position. You don't just replace him with Wayne Gallman and expect the same results, as we saw in 2020
You have to wait and see what SB is on the football field in 2021. He's got to demonstrate he can play football again, and at a level commensurate with an extension. They've got time to wait him out, and the overall value of his rookie will almost certainly be paid to him. He's also pocketing dollars pushing products, etc, in the NY TV area.
Also, to me it's clear there's no plan to trade him. Things can change, but unless DG is out and there's an unexpected sea change, he will remain a Giant.
I believe that last paragraph wholeheartedly. It is why I would gamble now before he proves it on the field. It is the only chance for a discount. The OL is going to be better next year, they invested in the experience of their young players and it will pay dividends.
My OP is based on the premise that I strongly believe he his is going to exceed expectations for 2021. I do understand that my position is unrealistic with almost no comparable situation before. Has anyone ever been extended before they came back form injury? I think I remember one but I can't put a finger on it.
where you lose me is this thinking that you can just replace Barkley with X running back and get similar results. We've seen what Barkley can do as a player, not many in the NFL can do it. Saying things like "just trade him, RBs aren't valued that high and their expiration date is quicker" means that you must have an awesome replacement in mind right? We are talking about an elite talent at the position. You don't just replace him with Wayne Gallman and expect the same results, as we saw in 2020
If I could play Grandmaster of time and trade Barkley for Bradshaw and Jacobs at the same age I would not think twice about it.
RE: Ha I read literally every post till Terps’ last one!
Ok, so I think Barkley is a better player than Bush. Given what he is, the coaches need to find a way for Barkley to make this offense more dynamic. Take it as a coaching challenge.
More John Mara bashing: I know I keep going on about how Mara is a fool. Case in point, assuring that SB will be on the team for a long time in public. That was a cringe worthy moronic statement that adds to the case that he can’t think two moves ahead. A public statement like that puts DG in a weak position as he negotiates a deal with SB and it complicates Judges job if he wants to adjust SB’s role. Mara just weakened his team’s position and gained nothing for it.
That’s the epitome of stupidity = no gain but increased risk.
Mara is too much like his father. And Rozelle is not around to hire George Young to save us from the way the Maras do things.
RE: RE: Two points I think are clear at this point
You have to wait and see what SB is on the football field in 2021. He's got to demonstrate he can play football again, and at a level commensurate with an extension. They've got time to wait him out, and the overall value of his rookie will almost certainly be paid to him. He's also pocketing dollars pushing products, etc, in the NY TV area.
Also, to me it's clear there's no plan to trade him. Things can change, but unless DG is out and there's an unexpected sea change, he will remain a Giant.
I believe that last paragraph wholeheartedly. It is why I would gamble now before he proves it on the field. It is the only chance for a discount. The OL is going to be better next year, they invested in the experience of their young players and it will pay dividends.
My OP is based on the premise that I strongly believe he his is going to exceed expectations for 2021. I do understand that my position is unrealistic with almost no comparable situation before. Has anyone ever been extended before they came back form injury? I think I remember one but I can't put a finger on it.
I follow your thought process, but don't see them committing let's say $40-50M to him before the knee is proven. If they stick with his rookie deal he earns north of $30M, I would consider that a sunk cost so he's set for life either way.
RE: RE: RE: Two points I think are clear at this point
You have to wait and see what SB is on the football field in 2021. He's got to demonstrate he can play football again, and at a level commensurate with an extension. They've got time to wait him out, and the overall value of his rookie will almost certainly be paid to him. He's also pocketing dollars pushing products, etc, in the NY TV area.
Also, to me it's clear there's no plan to trade him. Things can change, but unless DG is out and there's an unexpected sea change, he will remain a Giant.
I believe that last paragraph wholeheartedly. It is why I would gamble now before he proves it on the field. It is the only chance for a discount. The OL is going to be better next year, they invested in the experience of their young players and it will pay dividends.
My OP is based on the premise that I strongly believe he his is going to exceed expectations for 2021. I do understand that my position is unrealistic with almost no comparable situation before. Has anyone ever been extended before they came back form injury? I think I remember one but I can't put a finger on it.
I follow your thought process, but don't see them committing let's say $40-50M to him before the knee is proven. If they stick with his rookie deal he earns north of $30M, I would consider that a sunk cost so he's set for life either way.
Almost shocking posts like these can survive without being shouted down from rooftops.
Where are the defenders of All-Things Giants...asleep at the switch or have they finally seen the light on the RB value proposition?
Maybe they're still convened at their round table polishing off the remaining slices of Papa John's -- which they swear is good pizza with potential -- while listening to Matchbox 20, who they swear is a great band subjected to unfair criticism that we don't levy towards other bands.
RE: RE: RE: Ha I read literally every post till Terps’ last one!
Do you really think the statement puts DG in weaker negotiating position?
Nevertheless, what do you mean by it also complicates Judge's job, don't follow...
I doubt it would materially weaken DG's ability at the negotiation table, but I don't think it's wise for owners to spout off what could sound an awful lot like a mandate.
If he returns to his 2018/19 form, and it's a positive 2021 campaign, look to trade SB next offseason.
So....if he returns to form as a top 3 running back in football, you'd like him off the team?
For the money he'd demand, yes. It's just very likely the tipping point on the production curve is not far away. So why chance it? Trust the football actuarial tables...
for 2K next year, catch 100 passes for 1K yards and score 20 TDs. And we win the Super Bowl. Yet, I would still advocate that we don't re-sign Barkley.
Good thing you aren't the GM
I doubt after the three years of the Gentlemen Era I could do worse... ;)
for 2K next year, catch 100 passes for 1K yards and score 20 TDs. And we win the Super Bowl. Yet, I would still advocate that we don't re-sign Barkley.
Good thing you aren't the GM
I doubt after the three years of the Gentlemen Era I could do worse... ;)
15-33 is not a very high bar to exceed.
It's not just going 15-33 over the last three years
It's that the roster is still thin with huge question marks in critical areas, and nothing special on hand in terms of resources (draft picks and cap space).
This organization is closer to initiating a new rebuild under Judge+new GM than it is to competing.
Had all the actions under the Gettleman tenure simple been determined by a random number generator it likely would have turned out better.
RE: It's not just going 15-33 over the last three years
It's that the roster is still thin with huge question marks in critical areas, and nothing special on hand in terms of resources (draft picks and cap space).
This organization is closer to initiating a new rebuild under Judge+new GM than it is to competing.
Had all the actions under the Gettleman tenure simple been determined by a random number generator it likely would have turned out better.
I agree with the first line and you start to lose me after.
I am about to wildly speculate.
Brass tax, DG stayed because Judge wanted him to. Not saying they gave him the power to hire whoever he wanted. I think they interviewed after the season and Judge said he worked well with DG.
I believe they they think they fixed the whole enchilada with Judge and are going to try to not to mess it up. I think they believe they hired they next Tomlin. We shall see.
for 2K next year, catch 100 passes for 1K yards and score 20 TDs. And we win the Super Bowl. Yet, I would still advocate that we don't re-sign Barkley.
Good thing you aren't the GM
I doubt after the three years of the Gentlemen Era I could do worse... ;)
The Gettleman Fan Club on BBI would convert over to the BW in DC Fan Club.
I'd be pleasantly surprised if Judge has that much power this early. If he did, why is Garrett still the OC (a job it seems clear Judge wants to give to Kitchens)?
I just don't see evidence Mara changing the model the Giants have been using for decades. I think we're seeing a continuation of what's gone on in the past - the GM and head coach are on different tracks, and the blame for failure alternates between them. Shurmur caught the blame before, now it's Gettleman's turn. After Gettleman is replaced by Abrams (the inevitability of that statement is indicative of the dysfunction), the onus will be on Judge to perform.
I know Judge looks great, but he just went 6-10. If the Giants go 6-10 again (or worse) in 2021, he's probably going to be coaching for his job in 2022 and we'll be hearing about a new rebuild with Abrams and a new QB.
Look I know it's not the popular move but the smartest approach is to hope he plays well in 2021 and then trade him. The evidence against paying running backs is overwhelming at this point, and we've seen enough to know that Barkley isn't special enough to warrant being considered an exception.
Let Barkley play out 2021.
If he returns to his 2018/19 form, and it's a positive 2021 campaign, look to trade SB next offseason. It's the ideal outcome and SB should be at his highest market value.
If he's struggles with production/injuries, then you need to consider either cutting him or maybe trading him next offseason. Take the cap hit and move on.
Essentially l don't like any idea of keeping him past 2021. We can find other cheaper solutions at RB.
This...
He shouldn't be on the team past 2021. The 20201 money is guaranteed so the Giants are on the hook for it anyway.
After that, if it's a binary choice I agree with Essex (it isn't binary obviously) and let him walk (not cut) and maybe get a comp pick.
I agree with Terps, I don't think he is a very good RB either. RBs need to do more than be great in open space.
Best outcome is if he can be traded for a high 3rd or low 2nd. However, I can't see DG ever doing this.
Naturally, I can’t accept those conditions so I feel compelled to discuss what a well managed team would do... ; )
Look I know it's not the popular move but the smartest approach is to hope he plays well in 2021 and then trade him. The evidence against paying running backs is overwhelming at this point, and we've seen enough to know that Barkley isn't special enough to warrant being considered an exception.
The OL needs to improve with or without Barkley.
It works. Why we felt the need to re-invent the wheel that got us two more rings with I'll never understand.
Ever since Coughlin left the Giants have seemingly about-faced on philosophies that they built title-winning teams around and tried to sell it as "the right way".
Ezekiel Elliot's AAV is $15M. Jack Conklin's is $14M. Trent Williams's is $15M. Joe Thuney's is $15M.
If trading Barkley = someone on that level + a first round OL, it seems to me that's a good allocation of resources.
It works. Why we felt the need to re-invent the wheel that got us two more rings with I'll never understand.
Ever since Coughlin left the Giants have seemingly about-faced on philosophies that they built title-winning teams around and tried to sell it as "the right way".
It works when the rest is in place. The Giants haven't been successful at it since the SB runs so I'm overall skeptical of this approach.
If you are giving me Tom Brady, the OL, and those 3 or 4 WR's, of course I'm taking that over a RB.
Now you're really in purgatory.
Quote:
with RB by committee. The Giants won a super bowl the same way.
It works. Why we felt the need to re-invent the wheel that got us two more rings with I'll never understand.
Ever since Coughlin left the Giants have seemingly about-faced on philosophies that they built title-winning teams around and tried to sell it as "the right way".
It works when the rest is in place. The Giants haven't been successful at it since the SB runs so I'm overall skeptical of this approach.
If you are giving me Tom Brady, the OL, and those 3 or 4 WR's, of course I'm taking that over a RB.
Well, the trick to that is having guys on good contracts deals. I think tampa is only paying Brady and Evans and Smith (The LT) big money on offense.
Naturally, I can’t accept those conditions so I feel compelled to discuss what a well managed team would do... ; )
I wish we did not draft him based on everything that has happened since. The ROI has been abysmal. That said, I would wager we resign him. I would also wager that he has a great year in 2021. SO that is where I am. Trying to minimize the inevitable.
For us, what happens if he has a big year in 2021? He is going to cost a fortune.
It is a gamble for certain.
Quote:
For us, why would we commit to a longer term without seeing his health and knee in action? For him, why would he sign at a deep discount now, instead of betting on himself, provided he is healthy?
For him, what does he get if injures the same knee in camp? No more contracts.
For us, what happens if he has a big year in 2021? He is going to cost a fortune.
It is a gamble for certain.
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I get your point for sure. You are taking into account the Mara factor - which he said in the State of the Union that he expects SB to be here for a “very long time” - and building that into your assessment. And how to best manage those circumstances going forward.
Naturally, I can’t accept those conditions so I feel compelled to discuss what a well managed team would do... ; )
It is not just what he said, it is what they have done in the past as a franchise. Barkley is catnip to Mara. Team first, hard working, lead by example superstar that sells merchandise and puts fannies in the seats(when we return). I own my business, Football a business, we can never forget that.
I wish we did not draft him based on everything that has happened since. The ROI has been abysmal. That said, I would wager we resign him. I would also wager that he has a great year in 2021. SO that is where I am. Trying to minimize the inevitable.
Almost shocking posts like these can survive without being shouted down from rooftops.
Where are the defenders of All-Things Giants...asleep at the switch or have they finally seen the light on the RB value proposition?
Let Barkley play out 2021.
If he returns to his 2018/19 form, and it's a positive 2021 campaign, look to trade SB next offseason. It's the ideal outcome and SB should be at his highest market value.
If he's struggles with production/injuries, then you need to consider either cutting him or maybe trading him next offseason. Take the cap hit and move on.
Essentially l don't like any idea of keeping him past 2021. We can find other cheaper solutions at RB.
I tend to agree this is most suitable. Difficult to imagine a 1st round pick coming back as posted above though.
Would think a #2, maybe...
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In comment 15158782 bw in dc said:
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I get your point for sure. You are taking into account the Mara factor - which he said in the State of the Union that he expects SB to be here for a “very long time” - and building that into your assessment. And how to best manage those circumstances going forward.
Naturally, I can’t accept those conditions so I feel compelled to discuss what a well managed team would do... ; )
It is not just what he said, it is what they have done in the past as a franchise. Barkley is catnip to Mara. Team first, hard working, lead by example superstar that sells merchandise and puts fannies in the seats(when we return). I own my business, Football a business, we can never forget that.
I wish we did not draft him based on everything that has happened since. The ROI has been abysmal. That said, I would wager we resign him. I would also wager that he has a great year in 2021. SO that is where I am. Trying to minimize the inevitable.
Almost shocking posts like these can survive without being shouted down from rooftops.
Where are the defenders of All-Things Giants...asleep at the switch or have they finally seen the light on the RB value proposition?
/off soapbox
Because I would still believe the following prevails:
-- A RB's expiration date starts around year five.
-- RB's are one of the most fungible position in football.
-- RBBC makes more sense in today's NFL.
-- The ROI on a big contract for a RB is prohibitive.
-- If Jones is the solution at QB, there is even less reason to re-sign SB.
His pass blocking may be some of the worst I have seen. He lacks the desire for contact in blocking as well as running. thats a bad thing for a RB coming off injury. The man has all the talent in the world but his problem is in his head and Im not sure that can be fixed. I would look to draft a RB in the 3rd round or later and hope for the best. maybe even a cluster draft like we did at LB abd have several guys fill the need. I dont see SB as the guy we drafted unfortunately. great kid, great talent but doesnt seem like a football player. maybe im worng but until he shows a willingness for contact he's not a guy I can count on in a big spot.
I said this before, and while it may sound insane, Barkley - unless he changes his approach to the game - really isn't a RB. Using him as one with his poor pass blocking and boom or bust running style that can't consistently move the chains loses you ball games. I became even more convinced of this when watching the old videos from the 80s people have been posting and seeing Joe Morris play. It was a different game back then, but Morris was a better RB than Barkley has been. It's not even close.
Barkley is a guy who you scheme to get out into space where his gifts become an asset. I don't know if you'd call him a gadget player, a RB/WR, H-back, or what, but that's what he is.
I think this is why we'd see Shurmur limit Barkley's carries and we'd wonder why. He was a lousy head coach but he knows offense and I think he kind of realized this.
So is Barkley talented? Absolutely. But he's not a guy you break the bank for.
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Leave the current contract in place.
Let Barkley play out 2021.
If he returns to his 2018/19 form, and it's a positive 2021 campaign, look to trade SB next offseason. It's the ideal outcome and SB should be at his highest market value.
If he's struggles with production/injuries, then you need to consider either cutting him or maybe trading him next offseason. Take the cap hit and move on.
Essentially l don't like any idea of keeping him past 2021. We can find other cheaper solutions at RB.
I tend to agree this is most suitable. Difficult to imagine a 1st round pick coming back as posted above though.
Would think a #2, maybe...
I doubt we'd even get a 2nd rounder. The other 31 teams in the league don't have Gettleman as GM.
More John Mara bashing: I know I keep going on about how Mara is a fool. Case in point, assuring that SB will be on the team for a long time in public. That was a cringe worthy moronic statement that adds to the case that he can’t think two moves ahead. A public statement like that puts DG in a weak position as he negotiates a deal with SB and it complicates Judges job if he wants to adjust SB’s role. Mara just weakened his team’s position and gained nothing for it.
That’s the epitome of stupidity = no gain but increased risk.
For me, the player was not the mistake. I think he has/had the talent to warrant the pick. The problem, to me, is that he was picked, it would seem, to fix the offense by himself and to warrant sticking with Eli. The problem with that is the OL remained one of the worst OLs in the league. That has made his pick a waste.
More John Mara bashing: I know I keep going on about how Mara is a fool. Case in point, assuring that SB will be on the team for a long time in public. That was a cringe worthy moronic statement that adds to the case that he can’t think two moves ahead. A public statement like that puts DG in a weak position as he negotiates a deal with SB and it complicates Judges job if he wants to adjust SB’s role. Mara just weakened his team’s position and gained nothing for it.
That’s the epitome of stupidity = no gain but increased risk.
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Ok, so I think Barkley is a better player than Bush. Given what he is, the coaches need to find a way for Barkley to make this offense more dynamic. Take it as a coaching challenge.
More John Mara bashing: I know I keep going on about how Mara is a fool. Case in point, assuring that SB will be on the team for a long time in public. That was a cringe worthy moronic statement that adds to the case that he can’t think two moves ahead. A public statement like that puts DG in a weak position as he negotiates a deal with SB and it complicates Judges job if he wants to adjust SB’s role. Mara just weakened his team’s position and gained nothing for it.
That’s the epitome of stupidity = no gain but increased risk.
Exactly right.
Do you really think the statement puts DG in weaker negotiating position?
Nevertheless, what do you mean by it also complicates Judge's job, don't follow...
Also, to me it's clear there's no plan to trade him. Things can change, but unless DG is out and there's an unexpected sea change, he will remain a Giant.
I'm picturing Barkley's agent playing a recording of Mara saying this in their meeting and following it up with "your move".
I'm not privy to NFL contract negotiations but they likely aren't far off from anything else you haggle over. If i'm only willing to pay X a soundbyte of something I said in the past isn't going to change my mind. Barkley can be tagged or traded, no one is forcing us to sign anyone long term.
Re Judge, we all saw how Shurmur went away from SB when games were on the line. What if Judge decides SB isn't part of a winning formula? Suddenly, it's more than putting a prominent high pick on the bench, which is difficult enough. Now Judge has to be worry about the political relationship with the owner.
Mara's statement was an own goal. It makes me think he literally doesn't understand what is going on around him.
Re Judge, we all saw how Shurmur went away from SB when games were on the line. What if Judge decides SB isn't part of a winning formula? Suddenly, it's more than putting a prominent high pick on the bench, which is difficult enough. Now Judge has to be worry about the political relationship with the owner.
Mara's statement was an own goal. It makes me think he literally doesn't understand what is going on around him.
While not putting the NYG Front Office on a pedestal, it would be shocking if it weakened actual negotiations.
Also if Judge/Garrett change the offensive gameplan because its better to under-utilize Barkley then they need to produce the results. If they don't, then they will have much bigger problems than just dealing with how many snaps they should give Saquon to keep Mara happy.
Let Barkley play out 2021.
If he returns to his 2018/19 form, and it's a positive 2021 campaign, look to trade SB next offseason.
So....if he returns to form as a top 3 running back in football, you'd like him off the team?
Good thing you aren't the GM
Also, to me it's clear there's no plan to trade him. Things can change, but unless DG is out and there's an unexpected sea change, he will remain a Giant.
My OP is based on the premise that I strongly believe he his is going to exceed expectations for 2021. I do understand that my position is unrealistic with almost no comparable situation before. Has anyone ever been extended before they came back form injury? I think I remember one but I can't put a finger on it.
More John Mara bashing: I know I keep going on about how Mara is a fool. Case in point, assuring that SB will be on the team for a long time in public. That was a cringe worthy moronic statement that adds to the case that he can’t think two moves ahead. A public statement like that puts DG in a weak position as he negotiates a deal with SB and it complicates Judges job if he wants to adjust SB’s role. Mara just weakened his team’s position and gained nothing for it.
That’s the epitome of stupidity = no gain but increased risk.
Mara is too much like his father. And Rozelle is not around to hire George Young to save us from the way the Maras do things.
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You have to wait and see what SB is on the football field in 2021. He's got to demonstrate he can play football again, and at a level commensurate with an extension. They've got time to wait him out, and the overall value of his rookie will almost certainly be paid to him. He's also pocketing dollars pushing products, etc, in the NY TV area.
Also, to me it's clear there's no plan to trade him. Things can change, but unless DG is out and there's an unexpected sea change, he will remain a Giant.
I believe that last paragraph wholeheartedly. It is why I would gamble now before he proves it on the field. It is the only chance for a discount. The OL is going to be better next year, they invested in the experience of their young players and it will pay dividends.
My OP is based on the premise that I strongly believe he his is going to exceed expectations for 2021. I do understand that my position is unrealistic with almost no comparable situation before. Has anyone ever been extended before they came back form injury? I think I remember one but I can't put a finger on it.
I follow your thought process, but don't see them committing let's say $40-50M to him before the knee is proven. If they stick with his rookie deal he earns north of $30M, I would consider that a sunk cost so he's set for life either way.
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In comment 15159256 JonC said:
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You have to wait and see what SB is on the football field in 2021. He's got to demonstrate he can play football again, and at a level commensurate with an extension. They've got time to wait him out, and the overall value of his rookie will almost certainly be paid to him. He's also pocketing dollars pushing products, etc, in the NY TV area.
Also, to me it's clear there's no plan to trade him. Things can change, but unless DG is out and there's an unexpected sea change, he will remain a Giant.
I believe that last paragraph wholeheartedly. It is why I would gamble now before he proves it on the field. It is the only chance for a discount. The OL is going to be better next year, they invested in the experience of their young players and it will pay dividends.
My OP is based on the premise that I strongly believe he his is going to exceed expectations for 2021. I do understand that my position is unrealistic with almost no comparable situation before. Has anyone ever been extended before they came back form injury? I think I remember one but I can't put a finger on it.
I follow your thought process, but don't see them committing let's say $40-50M to him before the knee is proven. If they stick with his rookie deal he earns north of $30M, I would consider that a sunk cost so he's set for life either way.
Almost shocking posts like these can survive without being shouted down from rooftops.
Where are the defenders of All-Things Giants...asleep at the switch or have they finally seen the light on the RB value proposition?
Maybe they're still convened at their round table polishing off the remaining slices of Papa John's -- which they swear is good pizza with potential -- while listening to Matchbox 20, who they swear is a great band subjected to unfair criticism that we don't levy towards other bands.
Do you really think the statement puts DG in weaker negotiating position?
Nevertheless, what do you mean by it also complicates Judge's job, don't follow...
I doubt it would materially weaken DG's ability at the negotiation table, but I don't think it's wise for owners to spout off what could sound an awful lot like a mandate.
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Leave the current contract in place.
Let Barkley play out 2021.
If he returns to his 2018/19 form, and it's a positive 2021 campaign, look to trade SB next offseason.
So....if he returns to form as a top 3 running back in football, you'd like him off the team?
For the money he'd demand, yes. It's just very likely the tipping point on the production curve is not far away. So why chance it? Trust the football actuarial tables...
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for 2K next year, catch 100 passes for 1K yards and score 20 TDs. And we win the Super Bowl. Yet, I would still advocate that we don't re-sign Barkley.
Good thing you aren't the GM
I doubt after the three years of the Gentlemen Era I could do worse... ;)
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In comment 15158982 bw in dc said:
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for 2K next year, catch 100 passes for 1K yards and score 20 TDs. And we win the Super Bowl. Yet, I would still advocate that we don't re-sign Barkley.
Good thing you aren't the GM
I doubt after the three years of the Gentlemen Era I could do worse... ;)
This organization is closer to initiating a new rebuild under Judge+new GM than it is to competing.
Had all the actions under the Gettleman tenure simple been determined by a random number generator it likely would have turned out better.
This organization is closer to initiating a new rebuild under Judge+new GM than it is to competing.
Had all the actions under the Gettleman tenure simple been determined by a random number generator it likely would have turned out better.
I am about to wildly speculate.
Brass tax, DG stayed because Judge wanted him to. Not saying they gave him the power to hire whoever he wanted. I think they interviewed after the season and Judge said he worked well with DG.
I believe they they think they fixed the whole enchilada with Judge and are going to try to not to mess it up. I think they believe they hired they next Tomlin. We shall see.
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In comment 15158982 bw in dc said:
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for 2K next year, catch 100 passes for 1K yards and score 20 TDs. And we win the Super Bowl. Yet, I would still advocate that we don't re-sign Barkley.
Good thing you aren't the GM
I doubt after the three years of the Gentlemen Era I could do worse... ;)
The Gettleman Fan Club on BBI would convert over to the BW in DC Fan Club.
You and Fmic would be buddies...
I just don't see evidence Mara changing the model the Giants have been using for decades. I think we're seeing a continuation of what's gone on in the past - the GM and head coach are on different tracks, and the blame for failure alternates between them. Shurmur caught the blame before, now it's Gettleman's turn. After Gettleman is replaced by Abrams (the inevitability of that statement is indicative of the dysfunction), the onus will be on Judge to perform.
I know Judge looks great, but he just went 6-10. If the Giants go 6-10 again (or worse) in 2021, he's probably going to be coaching for his job in 2022 and we'll be hearing about a new rebuild with Abrams and a new QB.