I would like to try to extend him now at a discount because we are signing to second contract. IMHO a 2nd contract for SB is a forgone conclusion. Article on SB second contract - ( New Window )
I'd be pleasantly surprised if Judge has that much power this early. If he did, why is Garrett still the OC (a job it seems clear Judge wants to give to Kitchens)?
I just don't see evidence Mara changing the model the Giants have been using for decades. I think we're seeing a continuation of what's gone on in the past - the GM and head coach are on different tracks, and the blame for failure alternates between them. Shurmur caught the blame before, now it's Gettleman's turn. After Gettleman is replaced by Abrams (the inevitability of that statement is indicative of the dysfunction), the onus will be on Judge to perform.
I know Judge looks great, but he just went 6-10. If the Giants go 6-10 again (or worse) in 2021, he's probably going to be coaching for his job in 2022 and we'll be hearing about a new rebuild with Abrams and a new QB.
I tried to clarify. I don't they gave him power.
I think they believe they hired "the guy" in Judge. They think the 2 worked well together. I suspect they have some kind of exit interview after the season and Judge likely said the pairing worked.
My wild speculation is they are quite pleased with themselves by the Judge hire. I agree with 6-10. Judge said everything "I" wanted to hear. I am personally more interested in results.
I get a little nervous when people tell me exactly what I want to hear. I think the ownership loves it. It is my belief DG got his job by telling them exactly what they wanted to hear about the roster.
But there is a pretty loud group of posters who think that 15-33 is actually good considering the circumstances Gettleman inherited.
I read the excuses quite regularly...
-- Reese left a poor roster for DG.
-- Eli staying another year was more Mara, not DG.
-- DG selected a "generational player" with SB.
-- DG selected the right heir apparent with DJ.
-- DG has built a really good D.
-- DG now has the right pieces for the OL.
-- DG almost won a NFCE title this year.
-- Etc.
So when you understand all of this "context", it's actually a "good" 15-33.
But there is a pretty loud group of posters who think that 15-33 is actually good considering the circumstances Gettleman inherited.
I read the excuses quite regularly...
-- Reese left a poor roster for DG.
-- Eli staying another year was more Mara, not DG.
-- DG selected a "generational player" with SB.
-- DG selected the right heir apparent with DJ.
-- DG has built a really good D.
-- DG now has the right pieces for the OL.
-- DG almost won a NFCE title this year.
-- Etc.
So when you understand all of this "context", it's actually a "good" 15-33.
Even if you like some of Gettleman's moves, and you stick to the excuse that he inherited a terrible roster thanks to lack of serious planning by Reese, the results can't be defended. Not only do we have 15 wins in 3 years, but we still have a very problematic roster. In 3 years Gettleman has almost completely turned over the roster, yet we are still in the middle of a rebuild, we still have no depth at several positions, we still have mediocre to worse starters at several positions, and we still have huge question marks at several critical positions. I like Judge and I think he has the organization heading in the right direction. But, any future success is 100% dependent on a ridiculously successful off season this year. We must straighten out the OL once and for all. We must get a legit #1 WR. We must get a consistent pass rusher or two or 3. We must straighten out CB2 and we must get at least one LB not named Martinez to play at an impactful level. And, after all that, we have to be 100% correct about Jones. That's a Hell of a lot.
Some of you have unreasonable expectations. It's only been
I'd be pleasantly surprised if Judge has that much power this early. If he did, why is Garrett still the OC (a job it seems clear Judge wants to give to Kitchens)?
I just don't see evidence Mara changing the model the Giants have been using for decades. I think we're seeing a continuation of what's gone on in the past - the GM and head coach are on different tracks, and the blame for failure alternates between them. Shurmur caught the blame before, now it's Gettleman's turn. After Gettleman is replaced by Abrams (the inevitability of that statement is indicative of the dysfunction), the onus will be on Judge to perform.
I know Judge looks great, but he just went 6-10. If the Giants go 6-10 again (or worse) in 2021, he's probably going to be coaching for his job in 2022 and we'll be hearing about a new rebuild with Abrams and a new QB.
Things really get complicated if the Giants have another 6 or below win season. Imo, they really need to be 9-7 at minimum. If they go 6-10 again, now Judge is coaching for his life in 2022 which is not ideal.
I’m sure Mara is banking on a 9+ win season, this allows multiple things:
1. It makes transitioning to Abrams a much easier sell.
2. It takes pressure off of Judge for 2022 and brings some much needed stability to the coaching staff.
3. Gettleman can say (for his ego) he got it turned around and go to Cape Cod.
Abrams being a cap guy would hopefully lead to an outside hire to focus on personnel, assistant GM. It would also put more emphasis on personnel on the coaching staff since that isn’t Abrams background.
I don’t think that is bad either, I can live with that. Things really get messy if it’s another <6 win season.
RE: Some of you have unreasonable expectations. It's only been
three years. And if you take off Year 1 because Gettleman was strong-armed into sticking with Eli its really only been two years.
And if you don't count sleeping, bathroom breaks, sitting in traffic, etc. its really probably only one year.
And how much can you really do in one year...
First off, he wasn't strong armed into anything. Second, as far as I'm concerned sticking with Eli wasn't the problem. Sticking with Eli behind the worst OL in the league was the problem. That is on the GM.
I'd be pleasantly surprised if Judge has that much power this early. If he did, why is Garrett still the OC (a job it seems clear Judge wants to give to Kitchens)?
I just don't see evidence Mara changing the model the Giants have been using for decades. I think we're seeing a continuation of what's gone on in the past - the GM and head coach are on different tracks, and the blame for failure alternates between them. Shurmur caught the blame before, now it's Gettleman's turn. After Gettleman is replaced by Abrams (the inevitability of that statement is indicative of the dysfunction), the onus will be on Judge to perform.
I know Judge looks great, but he just went 6-10. If the Giants go 6-10 again (or worse) in 2021, he's probably going to be coaching for his job in 2022 and we'll be hearing about a new rebuild with Abrams and a new QB.
Things really get complicated if the Giants have another 6 or below win season. Imo, they really need to be 9-7 at minimum. If they go 6-10 again, now Judge is coaching for his life in 2022 which is not ideal.
I’m sure Mara is banking on a 9+ win season, this allows multiple things:
1. It makes transitioning to Abrams a much easier sell.
2. It takes pressure off of Judge for 2022 and brings some much needed stability to the coaching staff.
3. Gettleman can say (for his ego) he got it turned around and go to Cape Cod.
Abrams being a cap guy would hopefully lead to an outside hire to focus on personnel, assistant GM. It would also put more emphasis on personnel on the coaching staff since that isn’t Abrams background.
I don’t think that is bad either, I can live with that. Things really get messy if it’s another <6 win season.
I think we will be closer to 6 wins than 9. Much fell our way last year. Wentz/Pederson and injuries in Philly, Dak and injuries in Dallas, WFT shitshow at QB. We can't expect that next year. Our roster is thin. We need a FA home run and a draft that produces an impact player or it is going be a rough road.
It needs to be better than that. It should not take this long to put together a team to win 9 games. This is a crappy division, another 6 win season is a disaster imo.
I expect to be worse defensively, and have worse health luck
I think the offense is going to have to be a lot better to get to 8-8. I think a slight improvement only gets us back to 6-10, and the same output could get us to 3 or 4 wins.
Even if you like some of Gettleman's moves, and you stick to the excuse that he inherited a terrible roster thanks to lack of serious planning by Reese, the results can't be defended. Not only do we have 15 wins in 3 years, but we still have a very problematic roster. In 3 years Gettleman has almost completely turned over the roster, yet we are still in the middle of a rebuild, we still have no depth at several positions, we still have mediocre to worse starters at several positions, and we still have huge question marks at several critical positions. I like Judge and I think he has the organization heading in the right direction. But, any future success is 100% dependent on a ridiculously successful off season this year. We must straighten out the OL once and for all. We must get a legit #1 WR. We must get a consistent pass rusher or two or 3. We must straighten out CB2 and we must get at least one LB not named Martinez to play at an impactful level. And, after all that, we have to be 100% correct about Jones. That's a Hell of a lot.
Good summary. Bottom line is we have a lot of holes to fill and still have a lot of question marks with the current roster.
-- Barkley returning from injury.
-- Jones figuring it out.
-- Do we really have any OL solutions to count on.
-- Engram's status.
-- Pass rush.
-- Is it really smart to re-sign LW.
-- Etc.
Team seems to have found two good coaches in Judge and Graham. But after that, what on this team inspires you as a fan?
RE: I expect to be worse defensively, and have worse health luck
I think the offense is going to have to be a lot better to get to 8-8. I think a slight improvement only gets us back to 6-10, and the same output could get us to 3 or 4 wins.
Not good.
If that’s the case, Abrams cannot be the successor. Like you said, a draft simulation generated by a computer would yield better results.
2021 needs to be better, a big jump. If not, this has been a massive failure. I just see no way 6-10 again is acceptable. That would really tell me the Barkley, Jones & Thomas premium picks have not worked.
Even if you like some of Gettleman's moves, and you stick to the excuse that he inherited a terrible roster thanks to lack of serious planning by Reese, the results can't be defended. Not only do we have 15 wins in 3 years, but we still have a very problematic roster. In 3 years Gettleman has almost completely turned over the roster, yet we are still in the middle of a rebuild, we still have no depth at several positions, we still have mediocre to worse starters at several positions, and we still have huge question marks at several critical positions. I like Judge and I think he has the organization heading in the right direction. But, any future success is 100% dependent on a ridiculously successful off season this year. We must straighten out the OL once and for all. We must get a legit #1 WR. We must get a consistent pass rusher or two or 3. We must straighten out CB2 and we must get at least one LB not named Martinez to play at an impactful level. And, after all that, we have to be 100% correct about Jones. That's a Hell of a lot.
Good summary. Bottom line is we have a lot of holes to fill and still have a lot of question marks with the current roster.
-- Barkley returning from injury.
-- Jones figuring it out.
-- Do we really have any OL solutions to count on.
-- Engram's status.
-- Pass rush.
-- Is it really smart to re-sign LW.
-- Etc.
Team seems to have found two good coaches in Judge and Graham. But after that, what on this team inspires you as a fan?
IO think the staff as a whole is reason to feel good. This was a very well coached team.
RE: Some of you have unreasonable expectations. It's only been
three years. And if you take off Year 1 because Gettleman was strong-armed into sticking with Eli its really only been two years.
And if you don't count sleeping, bathroom breaks, sitting in traffic, etc. its really probably only one year.
And how much can you really do in one year...
Here's the complicated thing.
Part of me thinks the drafting of Barkley was part of the decision to make one more run with Eli - by giving him the best weapon the team could get its hands on and rolling the dice.
If so, then Barkley should correctly be seen as a part of that wasted decision, not a part of where the Giants should be going.
That being said - it was Gettleman's decision still to stick with Eli. If it were an owner's mandate that he disagreed with, he could've simply declined the job. He owns it by agreeing to those terms - if that's what went down.
where you lose me is this thinking that you can just replace Barkley with X running back and get similar results. We've seen what Barkley can do as a player, not many in the NFL can do it. Saying things like "just trade him, RBs aren't valued that high and their expiration date is quicker" means that you must have an awesome replacement in mind right? We are talking about an elite talent at the position. You don't just replace him with Wayne Gallman and expect the same results, as we saw in 2020
The numbers disagree with you. You can get winning production from an average RB. Of course you run into trouble if you have scrubs.
Tying up too much money into the RB position is a waste of resources. On top of which, Barkley isn't the superstar you seem to think he is.
where you lose me is this thinking that you can just replace Barkley with X running back and get similar results. We've seen what Barkley can do as a player, not many in the NFL can do it. Saying things like "just trade him, RBs aren't valued that high and their expiration date is quicker" means that you must have an awesome replacement in mind right? We are talking about an elite talent at the position. You don't just replace him with Wayne Gallman and expect the same results, as we saw in 2020
What do you define as results? You don't need a Saquon Barkley to win championships or have a league-best rushing game. From that perspective, yes, he is replaceable no matter what his highlight tape shows. This isn't to disrespect the player. It's simply fact. yeah, he has a rare collection of skills. The Giants had a league-leading rushing game with Brandon Jacobs and Derrick Ward. Put both those guys together in a lab and they don't equal Barkley.
It needs to be better than that. It should not take this long to put together a team to win 9 games. This is a crappy division, another 6 win season is a disaster imo.
IKR. But I don't expect the teams in our division to be as bad in 2021. Their rosters look better than ours to me. People talk a ton about the Barkley injury but he has to prove he can beat the run blitz. He dances and if it is play action, his blocking is very suspect. It is a bad combination. Run blitz on first down, if it is run Barkley will go laterally for no gain or a loss. If it is play action, or checked off to a pass, Barkley is now pass blocking. That is EXACTLY where I want him as a defensive coordinator. DJ Jones and pressure, not so great results. 2nd and long is not a great way to sustained drives.
I am just tired of double digit loss season and remain unconvinced it is about to change. I am in the "Show Me" before I believe it stage of my NY Giant fandom.
I just don't see evidence Mara changing the model the Giants have been using for decades. I think we're seeing a continuation of what's gone on in the past - the GM and head coach are on different tracks, and the blame for failure alternates between them. Shurmur caught the blame before, now it's Gettleman's turn. After Gettleman is replaced by Abrams (the inevitability of that statement is indicative of the dysfunction), the onus will be on Judge to perform.
I know Judge looks great, but he just went 6-10. If the Giants go 6-10 again (or worse) in 2021, he's probably going to be coaching for his job in 2022 and we'll be hearing about a new rebuild with Abrams and a new QB.
I think they believe they hired "the guy" in Judge. They think the 2 worked well together. I suspect they have some kind of exit interview after the season and Judge likely said the pairing worked.
My wild speculation is they are quite pleased with themselves by the Judge hire. I agree with 6-10. Judge said everything "I" wanted to hear. I am personally more interested in results.
I get a little nervous when people tell me exactly what I want to hear. I think the ownership loves it. It is my belief DG got his job by telling them exactly what they wanted to hear about the roster.
15-33 is not a very high bar to exceed.
Well, among rational people, yes.
But there is a pretty loud group of posters who think that 15-33 is actually good considering the circumstances Gettleman inherited.
I read the excuses quite regularly...
-- Reese left a poor roster for DG.
-- Eli staying another year was more Mara, not DG.
-- DG selected a "generational player" with SB.
-- DG selected the right heir apparent with DJ.
-- DG has built a really good D.
-- DG now has the right pieces for the OL.
-- DG almost won a NFCE title this year.
-- Etc.
So when you understand all of this "context", it's actually a "good" 15-33.
Quote:
15-33 is not a very high bar to exceed.
Well, among rational people, yes.
But there is a pretty loud group of posters who think that 15-33 is actually good considering the circumstances Gettleman inherited.
I read the excuses quite regularly...
-- Reese left a poor roster for DG.
-- Eli staying another year was more Mara, not DG.
-- DG selected a "generational player" with SB.
-- DG selected the right heir apparent with DJ.
-- DG has built a really good D.
-- DG now has the right pieces for the OL.
-- DG almost won a NFCE title this year.
-- Etc.
So when you understand all of this "context", it's actually a "good" 15-33.
And if you don't count sleeping, bathroom breaks, sitting in traffic, etc. its really probably only one year.
And how much can you really do in one year...
I just don't see evidence Mara changing the model the Giants have been using for decades. I think we're seeing a continuation of what's gone on in the past - the GM and head coach are on different tracks, and the blame for failure alternates between them. Shurmur caught the blame before, now it's Gettleman's turn. After Gettleman is replaced by Abrams (the inevitability of that statement is indicative of the dysfunction), the onus will be on Judge to perform.
I know Judge looks great, but he just went 6-10. If the Giants go 6-10 again (or worse) in 2021, he's probably going to be coaching for his job in 2022 and we'll be hearing about a new rebuild with Abrams and a new QB.
Things really get complicated if the Giants have another 6 or below win season. Imo, they really need to be 9-7 at minimum. If they go 6-10 again, now Judge is coaching for his life in 2022 which is not ideal.
I’m sure Mara is banking on a 9+ win season, this allows multiple things:
1. It makes transitioning to Abrams a much easier sell.
2. It takes pressure off of Judge for 2022 and brings some much needed stability to the coaching staff.
3. Gettleman can say (for his ego) he got it turned around and go to Cape Cod.
Abrams being a cap guy would hopefully lead to an outside hire to focus on personnel, assistant GM. It would also put more emphasis on personnel on the coaching staff since that isn’t Abrams background.
I don’t think that is bad either, I can live with that. Things really get messy if it’s another <6 win season.
And if you don't count sleeping, bathroom breaks, sitting in traffic, etc. its really probably only one year.
And how much can you really do in one year...
Quote:
I'd be pleasantly surprised if Judge has that much power this early. If he did, why is Garrett still the OC (a job it seems clear Judge wants to give to Kitchens)?
I just don't see evidence Mara changing the model the Giants have been using for decades. I think we're seeing a continuation of what's gone on in the past - the GM and head coach are on different tracks, and the blame for failure alternates between them. Shurmur caught the blame before, now it's Gettleman's turn. After Gettleman is replaced by Abrams (the inevitability of that statement is indicative of the dysfunction), the onus will be on Judge to perform.
I know Judge looks great, but he just went 6-10. If the Giants go 6-10 again (or worse) in 2021, he's probably going to be coaching for his job in 2022 and we'll be hearing about a new rebuild with Abrams and a new QB.
Things really get complicated if the Giants have another 6 or below win season. Imo, they really need to be 9-7 at minimum. If they go 6-10 again, now Judge is coaching for his life in 2022 which is not ideal.
I’m sure Mara is banking on a 9+ win season, this allows multiple things:
1. It makes transitioning to Abrams a much easier sell.
2. It takes pressure off of Judge for 2022 and brings some much needed stability to the coaching staff.
3. Gettleman can say (for his ego) he got it turned around and go to Cape Cod.
Abrams being a cap guy would hopefully lead to an outside hire to focus on personnel, assistant GM. It would also put more emphasis on personnel on the coaching staff since that isn’t Abrams background.
I don’t think that is bad either, I can live with that. Things really get messy if it’s another <6 win season.
Not good.
Good summary. Bottom line is we have a lot of holes to fill and still have a lot of question marks with the current roster.
-- Barkley returning from injury.
-- Jones figuring it out.
-- Do we really have any OL solutions to count on.
-- Engram's status.
-- Pass rush.
-- Is it really smart to re-sign LW.
-- Etc.
Team seems to have found two good coaches in Judge and Graham. But after that, what on this team inspires you as a fan?
Not good.
If that’s the case, Abrams cannot be the successor. Like you said, a draft simulation generated by a computer would yield better results.
2021 needs to be better, a big jump. If not, this has been a massive failure. I just see no way 6-10 again is acceptable. That would really tell me the Barkley, Jones & Thomas premium picks have not worked.
Quote:
Even if you like some of Gettleman's moves, and you stick to the excuse that he inherited a terrible roster thanks to lack of serious planning by Reese, the results can't be defended. Not only do we have 15 wins in 3 years, but we still have a very problematic roster. In 3 years Gettleman has almost completely turned over the roster, yet we are still in the middle of a rebuild, we still have no depth at several positions, we still have mediocre to worse starters at several positions, and we still have huge question marks at several critical positions. I like Judge and I think he has the organization heading in the right direction. But, any future success is 100% dependent on a ridiculously successful off season this year. We must straighten out the OL once and for all. We must get a legit #1 WR. We must get a consistent pass rusher or two or 3. We must straighten out CB2 and we must get at least one LB not named Martinez to play at an impactful level. And, after all that, we have to be 100% correct about Jones. That's a Hell of a lot.
Good summary. Bottom line is we have a lot of holes to fill and still have a lot of question marks with the current roster.
-- Barkley returning from injury.
-- Jones figuring it out.
-- Do we really have any OL solutions to count on.
-- Engram's status.
-- Pass rush.
-- Is it really smart to re-sign LW.
-- Etc.
Team seems to have found two good coaches in Judge and Graham. But after that, what on this team inspires you as a fan?
And if you don't count sleeping, bathroom breaks, sitting in traffic, etc. its really probably only one year.
And how much can you really do in one year...
Here's the complicated thing.
Part of me thinks the drafting of Barkley was part of the decision to make one more run with Eli - by giving him the best weapon the team could get its hands on and rolling the dice.
If so, then Barkley should correctly be seen as a part of that wasted decision, not a part of where the Giants should be going.
That being said - it was Gettleman's decision still to stick with Eli. If it were an owner's mandate that he disagreed with, he could've simply declined the job. He owns it by agreeing to those terms - if that's what went down.
The numbers disagree with you. You can get winning production from an average RB. Of course you run into trouble if you have scrubs.
Tying up too much money into the RB position is a waste of resources. On top of which, Barkley isn't the superstar you seem to think he is.
What do you define as results? You don't need a Saquon Barkley to win championships or have a league-best rushing game. From that perspective, yes, he is replaceable no matter what his highlight tape shows. This isn't to disrespect the player. It's simply fact. yeah, he has a rare collection of skills. The Giants had a league-leading rushing game with Brandon Jacobs and Derrick Ward. Put both those guys together in a lab and they don't equal Barkley.
I am just tired of double digit loss season and remain unconvinced it is about to change. I am in the "Show Me" before I believe it stage of my NY Giant fandom.