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Schwartz: Giants’ Tomlinson decision will speak volumes

Eric from BBI : Admin : 2/23/2021 9:08 am
FYI...


Giants’ Dalvin Tomlinson decision will speak volumes - ( New Window )
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...  
Jimmy Googs : 2/23/2021 9:14 am : link

“I think Dalvin is having as good of a year as anybody on our defense,” safety Logan Ryan said late last season. “Leonard’s having a great year statistically, but Dalvin is having a better year for our team and what we ask him to do.”
In a way sure.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 2/23/2021 9:16 am : link
Tomlinson did everything the Giants say they want their players to do. Worked hard, self-motivated guy, waited for his turn behind other players and became quietly excellent on the field and a locker room leader.


The reason you pay that guy is the same reason you paid Shepard. Because you want your players to follow that example and show the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
I am sure that they have a number  
section125 : 2/23/2021 9:17 am : link
in mind for him. They may let him go to seek what level he attains and either match it or exceed it. Dangerous game. I would like to retain him and I think his numbers will be lower than expected.
pretty awful article IMO  
KDavies : 2/23/2021 9:18 am : link
if Tomlinson leaves it's hardly an indictment on the Giants. It is likely because he took a huge payday somewhere else, where the Giants decided not to spend a huge payday on him and on Leonard Williams, and decided to spend the limited COVID salary cap money elsewhere.

Big fan of Tomlinson. He's a good player, and a class individual. It would be equally vapid to indict Tomlinson for leaving.
Forget what we supposedly have in money,  
Big Blue '56 : 2/23/2021 9:20 am : link
there are plenty of ways to get it done. DT would not get anywhere near the dollars LW would get in FA, imv. Still, he’d get a very nice contract, one which I believe we probably can afford. TBD
love the guy but not sure we should  
ryanmkeane : 2/23/2021 9:23 am : link
keep him. Having a loaded DT group will come at the expense of more important positions
Would like to see him back  
JB_in_DC : 2/23/2021 9:24 am : link
Don't see the sense in letting a quality lineman in his mid 20s walk.
Also, been waiting for the Giants to start trimming cap fat  
JonC : 2/23/2021 9:27 am : link
to prepare for the open of UFA. Without creating considerable space and getting LW done first, decisions will come down to allocation choices like keep Zeitler or Tomlinson, basically.
DT and LW both  
Dankbeerman : 2/23/2021 9:28 am : link
played their best football after being paired together. I dont know if one was the catalyst but they should both be retained and maybe then can each give a little to make sure they stay together.
RE: Also, been waiting for the Giants to start trimming cap fat  
Mike in NY : 2/23/2021 9:32 am : link
In comment 15159275 JonC said:
Quote:
to prepare for the open of UFA. Without creating considerable space and getting LW done first, decisions will come down to allocation choices like keep Zeitler or Tomlinson, basically.


Trimming cap fat does not have to happen before UFA only before the FA is signed if it will put us above the cap. I am sure the Giants know exactly how much cap room they will have free and will reach agreements with players even though they are not announced right away.
RE: Also, been waiting for the Giants to start trimming cap fat  
bigbluescot : 2/23/2021 9:37 am : link
In comment 15159275 JonC said:
Quote:
to prepare for the open of UFA. Without creating considerable space and getting LW done first, decisions will come down to allocation choices like keep Zeitler or Tomlinson, basically.


They've still got a bit of time, but I'd have thought they'd be looking to make those moves this week. Generally its more fair for the players you're releasing the early to do it, allows them to feature in other teams planning.
RE: RE: Also, been waiting for the Giants to start trimming cap fat  
Gatorade Dunk : 2/23/2021 9:45 am : link
In comment 15159283 Mike in NY said:
Quote:
In comment 15159275 JonC said:


Quote:


to prepare for the open of UFA. Without creating considerable space and getting LW done first, decisions will come down to allocation choices like keep Zeitler or Tomlinson, basically.



Trimming cap fat does not have to happen before UFA only before the FA is signed if it will put us above the cap. I am sure the Giants know exactly how much cap room they will have free and will reach agreements with players even though they are not announced right away.

True, but for players you're going to release anyway, you're not only doing them a favor by letting them hit the market in advance of FA, but you might also take some money out of the market in advance.

The only benefit to not releasing players before you absolutely have to is that you can still view them as a contingency plan and have them under contract.

When it comes to guys like Tate, that's actually a bit troubling, IMO. I can easily envision a scenario where the Giants miss out on multiple FA WR options and are forced to pivot with regard to their plan to add playmakers. Tate should not be a part of the ideal plan or part of that pivot, IMO, so it makes me curious why he wouldn't be an early cut.
RE: RE: Also, been waiting for the Giants to start trimming cap fat  
JonC : 2/23/2021 9:46 am : link
In comment 15159283 Mike in NY said:
Quote:
In comment 15159275 JonC said:


Quote:


to prepare for the open of UFA. Without creating considerable space and getting LW done first, decisions will come down to allocation choices like keep Zeitler or Tomlinson, basically.



Trimming cap fat does not have to happen before UFA only before the FA is signed if it will put us above the cap. I am sure the Giants know exactly how much cap room they will have free and will reach agreements with players even though they are not announced right away.


It doesn't have to happen but rolling piecemeal typically happens after the first wave(s) of free agency. Cuts are typical after the Super Bowl to get the ball rolling securing UFAs more quickly and to allow players to start finding new places to land.
RE: In a way sure.  
robbieballs2003 : 2/23/2021 9:50 am : link
In comment 15159255 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
Tomlinson did everything the Giants say they want their players to do. Worked hard, self-motivated guy, waited for his turn behind other players and became quietly excellent on the field and a locker room leader.


The reason you pay that guy is the same reason you paid Shepard. Because you want your players to follow that example and show the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.


While this is true I think you are missing the point. I think the point of the article and Ryan's quote is that Dalvin is asked to do the dirty work in this system so he is sacrificing his stats for the team. Therefore, paying him a lesser value because he doesn't have the stats is not very admirable by the Giants.
I could see some rational for not releasing Tate as of yet.  
Jimmy Googs : 2/23/2021 9:55 am : link
Giants have a few critical negotiations on the near horizon and no need to show they are creating savings or positional openings until they have to. Let the guys on the other side of the table make their own assumptions.

Obviously Tate would like to know sooner versus later but he hasn't exactly acted like a model citizen on/off the field so Giants don't need to do any additional favors beyond the monies he received.
Elected Team Captain  
Lines of Scrimmage : 2/23/2021 9:56 am : link
Improved each year. Still has upside and has been someone available at game time.

Keep your good players. Offer a good market value contract. Hope he accepts and don't overpay if he decides to leave for more money.

RE: RE: In a way sure.  
section125 : 2/23/2021 9:57 am : link
In comment 15159298 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
In comment 15159255 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


Tomlinson did everything the Giants say they want their players to do. Worked hard, self-motivated guy, waited for his turn behind other players and became quietly excellent on the field and a locker room leader.


The reason you pay that guy is the same reason you paid Shepard. Because you want your players to follow that example and show the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.



While this is true I think you are missing the point. I think the point of the article and Ryan's quote is that Dalvin is asked to do the dirty work in this system so he is sacrificing his stats for the team. Therefore, paying him a lesser value because he doesn't have the stats is not very admirable by the Giants.


Weird way to look at it. He is a nose tackle. That is his position. NTs do the dirty work on every team. I think if he had the ability to do something more, he would be doing it, i.e. pass rush.
RE: RE: In a way sure.  
Section331 : 2/23/2021 9:58 am : link
In comment 15159298 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:


While this is true I think you are missing the point. I think the point of the article and Ryan's quote is that Dalvin is asked to do the dirty work in this system so he is sacrificing his stats for the team. Therefore, paying him a lesser value because he doesn't have the stats is not very admirable by the Giants.


He's going to be paid based on how the league values him. NYG is not likely to tag him, so DT will get the chance to test the market. If NYG can bring him back at a good number, it isn't because they don't value his contributions.

I do expect that he will be in fairly high demand, however. I think GB makes a run for him.
The other interesting news which should help keep  
jvm52106 : 2/23/2021 9:59 am : link
the cap money up around $185 mil vs the floor of $180 is the sentiment that the NFL is leaning towards implementing the 17th regular season game as agreed upon last year. That would open up some additional broadcast money and revenue channels to help keep the cap up above the floor of $180 mil.

I just keep thinking of how often people crowed about that  
Ten Ton Hammer : 2/23/2021 10:00 am : link
"none of ___ draft picks signed a second contract with the team" stat.

Well this is how that happens.
Martinez's success...  
Brown_Hornet : 2/23/2021 10:00 am : link
...is greatly predicated upon what DT does play in and play out.
RE: RE: In a way sure.  
Jimmy Googs : 2/23/2021 10:00 am : link
In comment 15159298 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
In comment 15159255 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


Tomlinson did everything the Giants say they want their players to do. Worked hard, self-motivated guy, waited for his turn behind other players and became quietly excellent on the field and a locker room leader.


The reason you pay that guy is the same reason you paid Shepard. Because you want your players to follow that example and show the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.



While this is true I think you are missing the point. I think the point of the article and Ryan's quote is that Dalvin is asked to do the dirty work in this system so he is sacrificing his stats for the team. Therefore, paying him a lesser value because he doesn't have the stats is not very admirable by the Giants.


Yep.

Giants should be retaining Tomlinson if bid/ask are close. He plays very hard on the field, good leader and presence off of it.

There is something to be said about guys you don't have to worry about their effort once they get paid. Would suggest Tomlinson may be one of those guys...
If I were a betting man  
Harvest Blend : 2/23/2021 10:05 am : link
I'd say Tomlinson is a goner. It all seems to add up just based on history and the assets so far allocated to Williams.

Just my .01 cent.
RE: RE: RE: In a way sure.  
robbieballs2003 : 2/23/2021 10:06 am : link
In comment 15159310 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 15159298 robbieballs2003 said:


Quote:


In comment 15159255 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


Tomlinson did everything the Giants say they want their players to do. Worked hard, self-motivated guy, waited for his turn behind other players and became quietly excellent on the field and a locker room leader.


The reason you pay that guy is the same reason you paid Shepard. Because you want your players to follow that example and show the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.



While this is true I think you are missing the point. I think the point of the article and Ryan's quote is that Dalvin is asked to do the dirty work in this system so he is sacrificing his stats for the team. Therefore, paying him a lesser value because he doesn't have the stats is not very admirable by the Giants.



Weird way to look at it. He is a nose tackle. That is his position. NTs do the dirty work on every team. I think if he had the ability to do something more, he would be doing it, i.e. pass rush.


Not sure what is weird about it. Read Ryan's quote. That speaks volumes. I'm not saying we have to sign him at all costs. I am just pointing out that Dalvin seems to have done everything asked of him and more. And if you want to be a respected organization then you keep players like that around. Now, if he gets blown out of the water with an offer elsewhere then that is understandable. But the Giants should be trying to bring him back.
I'm sure there are those who could point out the dissimilarities but  
FranknWeezer : 2/23/2021 10:08 am : link
this reminds me of the crossroads we were at with Barry Cofield and Linval Joseph. Hated to see both of them leave and play solid as a DT for other teams. Didn't like that feeling then and don't want to have it again with DT.
RE: I'm sure there are those who could point out the dissimilarities but  
Ten Ton Hammer : 2/23/2021 10:13 am : link
In comment 15159326 FranknWeezer said:
Quote:
this reminds me of the crossroads we were at with Barry Cofield and Linval Joseph. Hated to see both of them leave and play solid as a DT for other teams. Didn't like that feeling then and don't want to have it again with DT.


To me the only dissimilarity is that in Linval's case, he became a great player only after he left. He was 'just' pretty good, and the Giants had a second round pick waiting to take his spot. Linval's pass-rushing ability exploded under a different coaching staff.
If Another Team Breaks the Bank For Him  
Bernie : 2/23/2021 10:21 am : link
then he is gone. At $10-$12 million per, I think the Giants make it happen. Given their cap situation, the Giants will have options in future years to get players paid to keep them this year (i.e. signing bonus in 2021 and then guarantee salaries in '22 & '23). And if you don't think a player is worth guaranteeing them in yrs 2 & 3, then you probably shouldn't resign them anyway. If the Giants plan to use the draft on the offensive side of the ball, then I think this deal gets done and they keep both LW and DT.
I would rather cut Engram and give his $6M to  
Jimmy Googs : 2/23/2021 10:40 am : link
Tomlinson and tell him and Leonard Williams that they are going to get some snaps at Tight End as well this season.

My guess is Leonard would have less drops and Dalvin would be a better blocker...
i don't see why he would come back  
GiantsFan84 : 2/23/2021 10:45 am : link
even if the giants don't have a chance at the top 2 WRs (Golladay / Robinson), i'd rather they go out and sign Moton to play RT rather than use the money on tomlinson.

tomlinson is fine. he's not the player LW is. and his skill set is replaceable. they can draft that big fat guy Shelvin from LSU who can do exactly what dalvin does. and they can probably get shelvin in rd 3
So much we don't know.  
Grizz99 : 2/23/2021 11:03 am : link
Under the Possible if not Probable file...
Dek Lawrence is a natural nose and would be better there than Tomlinson - and significantly so (remember this is just conjecture).
BJ Hill improved as last year moved along and would be as good as Lawrence as an end in the 3-4.
Just idle speculation, Still.....,,,,
How about the recent  
Dnew15 : 2/23/2021 11:08 am : link
terrible drafting and player development by this organization.

The last 2nd round drafted player to get a lengthy extension was Corey Webster!

That's crazy.
RE: So much we don't know.  
Section331 : 2/23/2021 11:09 am : link
In comment 15159402 Grizz99 said:
Quote:
Under the Possible if not Probable file...
Dek Lawrence is a natural nose and would be better there than Tomlinson - and significantly so (remember this is just conjecture).
BJ Hill improved as last year moved along and would be as good as Lawrence as an end in the 3-4.
Just idle speculation, Still.....,,,,


I agree about Dex, I think NT would be his best spot. Hill was fine in his role, I do worry that he would be exposed given more PT, but that can be addressed in the draft or a less expensive FA.

LW is going to get big money, so unless DT gets little interest, I don't see keeping both.
Can you imagine...  
bw in dc : 2/23/2021 11:19 am : link
that? Keeping Tomlinson and LW for a total cap hit over $30M+ for DTs.

What a total waste of cap resources that would be.

We need at least another 10ppg on offense to really compete next year and beyond. While many here consider Barkley the best RB ever, his return isn't going to create another 160 points next year. That's where the fix needs to occure - on offense.

The most important person on defense isn't LW or Tomlinson. It's Graham. And he stayed.

Keeping LW is not the answer. Keeping Tomlinson at $12-14 is not the answer either, but it's a better answer than keeping LW.
Interesting article  
ghost718 : 2/23/2021 11:19 am : link
My interpretation was,Schwartz is asking what if the Belichick boys prefer Tomlinson stays over Williams.

Or maybe try and sign both,and make it harder to improve the rest of the team.

If there's any truth to it,have fun sorting it out Johnny

RE: Can you imagine...  
Matt M. : 2/23/2021 11:24 am : link
In comment 15159422 bw in dc said:
Quote:
that? Keeping Tomlinson and LW for a total cap hit over $30M+ for DTs.

What a total waste of cap resources that would be.

We need at least another 10ppg on offense to really compete next year and beyond. While many here consider Barkley the best RB ever, his return isn't going to create another 160 points next year. That's where the fix needs to occure - on offense.

The most important person on defense isn't LW or Tomlinson. It's Graham. And he stayed.

Keeping LW is not the answer. Keeping Tomlinson at $12-14 is not the answer either, but it's a better answer than keeping LW.
Agreed. If I had to choose, it would be Tomlinson at a cheaper deal. It will still be overpaying, but that is the nature of a lot of FA deals. But, it would cost a lot less. I agree that re-signing both would be a mistake from a cap perspective.
would be very frustrating to see him go  
hitdog42 : 2/23/2021 11:33 am : link
takes a strength to a meh-
only to then add what?
If its keep Zeitler vs keep Tomlinson  
90.Cal : 2/23/2021 11:51 am : link
Thats a no brainer for me... and should be a no brainer for everyone else too.
RE: RE: Can you imagine...  
Section331 : 2/23/2021 11:56 am : link
In comment 15159432 Matt M. said:
Quote:
Agreed. If I had to choose, it would be Tomlinson at a cheaper deal. It will still be overpaying, but that is the nature of a lot of FA deals. But, it would cost a lot less. I agree that re-signing both would be a mistake from a cap perspective.


I disagree. LW supplies a badly needed skill - the ability to get to the QB, and he does it without giving up anything when defending the run. Guys like him are much harder to find, and why he is certain to get big money.

As good as DT is, his skills are replaceable. In fact, his replacement is already likely on the roster in Dex. So the issue will be how to replace Dex at the other DT/DE spot.
I'm not sure I trust Williams to be a big time passrusher  
Ten Ton Hammer : 2/23/2021 11:58 am : link
going forward. It's fine to give him all the credit in the world for last season, but if he turns back into a 5 sack guy again, the deal is a bust.

This is a different decision from keeping Joseph or Cofield. The  
Ira : 2/23/2021 11:59 am : link
Giants now run a 3-4 and, IMO, Lawrence's best position is nose tackle. That's the only position Tomlinson plays.
related but unrelated  
GiantsFan84 : 2/23/2021 12:02 pm : link
if they are not going to resign him it really makes you wonder why they didn't trade him at the deadline when teams reportedly were trying to trade for him
RE: RE: RE: Can you imagine...  
Matt M. : 2/23/2021 12:03 pm : link
In comment 15159484 Section331 said:
Quote:
In comment 15159432 Matt M. said:


Quote:


Agreed. If I had to choose, it would be Tomlinson at a cheaper deal. It will still be overpaying, but that is the nature of a lot of FA deals. But, it would cost a lot less. I agree that re-signing both would be a mistake from a cap perspective.



I disagree. LW supplies a badly needed skill - the ability to get to the QB, and he does it without giving up anything when defending the run. Guys like him are much harder to find, and why he is certain to get big money.

As good as DT is, his skills are replaceable. In fact, his replacement is already likely on the roster in Dex. So the issue will be how to replace Dex at the other DT/DE spot.
My issue is whether it is safe to expect that kind of pass rush from him consistently and for at least 3 more years. That is what you need to justify a 5 year deal at the money it will take. I just don't see considering last year was the anomaly in his career thus far, by a significant margin.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Can you imagine...  
Section331 : 2/23/2021 12:06 pm : link
In comment 15159494 Matt M. said:
Quote:
My issue is whether it is safe to expect that kind of pass rush from him consistently and for at least 3 more years. That is what you need to justify a 5 year deal at the money it will take. I just don't see considering last year was the anomaly in his career thus far, by a significant margin.


His pressure ratings from the year prior were really good, he just didn't finish often enough. I don't know that he'll be able to replicate what he did this year, but there is no reason to think he won't be a very productive player down the road, especially if he has a good ER outside.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Can you imagine...  
Matt M. : 2/23/2021 12:09 pm : link
In comment 15159500 Section331 said:
Quote:
In comment 15159494 Matt M. said:


Quote:


My issue is whether it is safe to expect that kind of pass rush from him consistently and for at least 3 more years. That is what you need to justify a 5 year deal at the money it will take. I just don't see considering last year was the anomaly in his career thus far, by a significant margin.


H
His pressure ratings from the year prior were really good, he just didn't finish often enough. I don't know that he'll be able to replicate what he did this year, but there is no reason to think he won't be a very productive player down the road, especially if he has a good ER outside.
I expect him to be productive and even very good. But, if he isn't anywhere near the amount of pressure, sacks, and TFL as last year, then the deal he is going to get is not worth it. As I said the other day, he has already been paid for his production here. He got nearly $18M last year, which paid for the year. Giving him more than that for 5 years means he has to live up to that level because he has no other years of production he is "owed" for. If you can't honestly and confidently say he should produce at that level, then why would you pay a DT nearly $20M for 5 years?
What I hate about this, is arguing against signing him  
Matt M. : 2/23/2021 12:15 pm : link
is too often mistaken for not liking him, etc. That is far from the truth. I do like him as a player and I loved his output last year. That doesn't mean I think it is a wise cap move to allocate that kind of money for a player I don't honestly believe will replicate his production for the enough of the deal. Even if he has a big year next year, it won't mean anything if he reverts back to his normal levels. What he does next year won't determine the value of the deal. What he does 3 years from now will.

This is why I didn't like the trade either. I would have been 100% on board with pursuing him via FA. They could have signed him to a 3-5 year deal which would have overpaid him for what he already produced to that point, but been far less restrictive than the deal he is going to get now and he would already be on year 2, where the remainder of the deal would be less of a concern.

Instead, we already paid him over $17M, which worked out. But, now we are looking at 4 or 5 more years at more than that.
Until Patrick Graham suits up  
Dnew15 : 2/23/2021 12:37 pm : link
and starts making interceptions and sacking the QB...I think it would be wise for the Giants to pay players that can play.

LW and DT can play.

You can't just go out and re-allocate that money to the offensive side of the ball and expect to produce more points.

There are very few offensive weapons available to fix that offense in FA.

Plus, if DJ isn't any good - it doesn't matter how much money you spend on guys that can make explosive plays on offense.
RE: So much we don't know.  
Gatorade Dunk : 2/23/2021 1:25 pm : link
In comment 15159402 Grizz99 said:
Quote:
Under the Possible if not Probable file...
Dek Lawrence is a natural nose and would be better there than Tomlinson - and significantly so (remember this is just conjecture).
BJ Hill improved as last year moved along and would be as good as Lawrence as an end in the 3-4.
Just idle speculation, Still.....,,,,

"Dek" is a new one. Do you misspell your favorite Cowboys players' names this frequently?
RE: What I hate about this, is arguing against signing him  
Big Blue '56 : 2/23/2021 1:37 pm : link
In comment 15159518 Matt M. said:
Quote:
is too often mistaken for not liking him, etc. That is far from the truth. I do like him as a player and I loved his output last year. That doesn't mean I think it is a wise cap move to allocate that kind of money for a player I don't honestly believe will replicate his production for the enough of the deal. Even if he has a big year next year, it won't mean anything if he reverts back to his normal levels. What he does next year won't determine the value of the deal. What he does 3 years from now will.

This is why I didn't like the trade either. I would have been 100% on board with pursuing him via FA. They could have signed him to a 3-5 year deal which would have overpaid him for what he already produced to that point, but been far less restrictive than the deal he is going to get now and he would already be on year 2, where the remainder of the deal would be less of a concern.

Instead, we already paid him over $17M, which worked out. But, now we are looking at 4 or 5 more years at more than that.


Except for one thing: Trading for him made him ours; to get the first and only crack at him. Not trading for him allowed many other suitors to attempt to outbid us. That’s a huge difference..
This strikes me as  
Mike from SI : 2/23/2021 1:38 pm : link
"content authors need to provide content." It would be great if we can keep him for a reasonable price. But he's not a bellwether for the franchise.
Hope the Giants can find a way to keep him  
US1 Giants : 2/23/2021 1:44 pm : link
Tomlinson has to make the best business decision though.
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