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Duggan: Giants and L. Williams “are not close” on new deal

Vin_Cuccs : 2/25/2021 10:05 am
Via Twitter;

Per @DDuggan21: #Giants and Leonard Williams “aren’t close” to reaching an agreement on a contract extension. The deadline for team’s to use franchise tag is March 9.

Just to add context to this, not being close to an agreement now isn't a big deal. If they're not close in two weeks, then it becomes a big deal. Deadlines drive action in the NFL, so the picture will be much clearer by March 9
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Bw - I think they should always have some amount of  
Jimmy Googs : 2/25/2021 9:12 pm : link
cap hit because the contract vests ahead of time. But as mentioned, by 2026 it isn't an unmanageable figure if the Chiefs decided to cut the cord. In reality, the contract will likely be modified by that point.

But lets ask Fmic to weigh in as he knows when the $400M+ of guaranteed payments comes due...
Wake me up if they’re not close a day or 2 prior to FA  
The_Boss : 2/25/2021 10:38 pm : link
A good case can be made either way (signing him or letting him walk), so once this thing reaches its natural conclusion, I expect a lively debate on this site.
...  
christian : 2/25/2021 10:45 pm : link
The guarantee race starts this offseason. On the third day of the 2021 league year, his 2023 money is guaranteed, and it sets in motion steep multi year guarantees until you get to the 2026 offseason.

That’s the inflection point. They can get out right there because no future years are guaranteed. They can pay him 38M and walk.

It’s a lot of money in his pocket. He’ll have earned about 225M in 6 years. But it’s not a 400M tragedy.
Im starting to think maybe signing Tomlinson  
JoeyBigBlue : 2/25/2021 10:54 pm : link
Is the better long term move for this franchise. Tomlinson brings leadership and run defense to this team. Plus he’ll command 11 to 12 million a year instead of the 20 Williams wants. Williams is great, but how sure are we that he’ll be dominant again next season. He wasn’t in 2019.
...  
christian : 2/25/2021 11:07 pm : link
I’d very much sign up for a combination of Tomlinson, an inside linebacker like Eric Wilson, and a corner like Michael Davis. I think you can sign all three of those guys for around what Williams will fetch.
RE: A bit ponderous why the Giants just didn't let him get to  
GeofromNJ : 2/25/2021 11:16 pm : link
In comment 15161682 chick310 said:
Quote:
free agency and bid for his services there. Particularly knowing they didn't have a signed deal in hand with LW as part of the trade with the Jets.

Assuming proof will flow in now from posters stating that he wouldn't ever have gotten to free agency or we would never have been successful in signing him in 2020 free agency versus other teams.

Ponderous I tell you...

That trade made no sense to me when it was made and still doesn't today. It wasn't as if the Giants needed Williams to make the playoffs the year of the trade.
RE: RE: A bit ponderous why the Giants just didn't let him get to  
Matt M. : 2/26/2021 12:33 am : link
In comment 15162033 GeofromNJ said:
Quote:
In comment 15161682 chick310 said:


Quote:


free agency and bid for his services there. Particularly knowing they didn't have a signed deal in hand with LW as part of the trade with the Jets.

Assuming proof will flow in now from posters stating that he wouldn't ever have gotten to free agency or we would never have been successful in signing him in 2020 free agency versus other teams.

Ponderous I tell you...



That trade made no sense to me when it was made and still doesn't today. It wasn't as if the Giants needed Williams to make the playoffs the year of the trade.
Agreed. And if we had lost him to FA, where would that have left us? They couldn't have done much worse than their 6 wins and middle of the pack overall D. That deal makes sense when you think you are on the cusp of something. They clearly were not.
RE: Off topic - but I was very impressed with the depth shown  
allstarjim : 2/26/2021 1:51 am : link
In comment 15161477 chick310 said:
Quote:
by the KC Chiefs along their Offensive Line this year.

They were decimated with injuries and opt-outs, shuffling players in and around that starting lineup, and still managed to make it to the Super Bowl supporting a high powered offense.

The Eric Fisher injury may have just been the final straw that broke the camel's back. Especially against a team built to take advantage of it from both edges.


They had Fisher until late in the game in the AFC Championship game. Losing him was a disaster.
I don't understand this thinking  
Grizz99 : 2/26/2021 6:03 am : link
[quote]Agreed. And if we had lost him to FA, where would that have left us? They couldn't have done much worse than their 6 wins and middle of the pack overall D. That deal makes sense when you think you are on the cusp of something. They clearly were not.quote/]

How do you get to.. "on the cusp of something"?. Seems to me, you sign talent and improve. I believe we are (finally) on the cusp of competing at a high level NOW, and one reason is the acquisition of Williams.
Last year, that's in the same time frame that we "stole" Williams, Indy acquired DeForest Buckner - same position, same age, both superb impact players. Indy gave up a top 15 pick in the first round and paid the man 21 million - thereby setting the market.
If the Giants indeed, are "on the cusp' it's because of the signing and bottom line is we stole the guy.
He is a nice player solid.  
Giant John : 2/26/2021 7:36 am : link
But 20+ mm?? I don’t see that.
Best pass rusher on this team? Yes .  
Giant John : 2/26/2021 7:37 am : link
That doesn’t make him Great.
RE: He is a nice player solid.  
section125 : 2/26/2021 7:49 am : link
In comment 15162071 Giant John said:
Quote:
But 20+ mm?? I don’t see that.


He is much better than a nice solid player. Somebody posted Aaron Donald's key stats vs Leonard Williams. They were very close, I think Donald had two more sacks.

He is not Aaron Donald, nobody is. But Williams is in that upper tier DT/DE level. I think with a solid OLB/ER he will get more than 11 1/2 sacks...
RE: Best pass rusher on this team? Yes .  
Toth029 : 2/26/2021 8:06 am : link
In comment 15162072 Giant John said:
Quote:
That doesn’t make him Great.

Who else is there? Do you remember how bad it was from 2017 til 2019?
RE: RE: He is a nice player solid.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 2/26/2021 9:08 am : link
In comment 15162078 section125 said:
Quote:
But Williams is in that upper tier DT/DE level. I think with a solid OLB/ER he will get more than 11 1/2 sacks...


Is he? He's only done it for one season.

If next season he finishes with 5.5 sacks, you good with that?

Not sure why anyone is ready to believe after a year that's wildly outside of anything he's done in his career before, we're ready to say "Oh yes, Leonard Williams is a top 10 pass rusher in the NFL.


You can cite all the "he creates pressures, it's not about just sacks" metrics you want, if you are paying 19-20m for a defensive linemen, he has to get to the QB and bring him down consistently.

The reason nobody could stand the sight of Olivier Vernon is they were paying him 15m+ a year and he never really got to the QB. He just collected a lot of pressures.
GDunk  
fkap : 2/26/2021 9:11 am : link
" It's the little missteps like restructuring Ellison last year (because we had tried to absorb too much dead money last season) and carrying a vested veteran like Tomlinson in week 1 (even though he was way down on the depth chart) that are just as damaging, if not more so, as the steady stream of wasted low level FA signings like Toilolo."

A lot of BBI will point at any given one of those missteps and argue that it didn't sink the team.

Add them all up, though, and they make a difference.
RE: RE: RE: RE: It was time to reach a deal nearly 1.5 year ago.  
djm : 2/26/2021 9:30 am : link
In comment 15161670 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15161555 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


In comment 15161490 bw in dc said:


Quote:


In comment 15161397 chick310 said:


Quote:


Otherwise, what was the purpose of trading for him from another team. Can understand to some degree that both parties have to be on the same page to get a deal done, therefore last year's tag was understandable since the Giants probably had to save face on the picks used.





So true. That was the missed window - from the day the trade was executed right up until the season ended in 2019.



Recall a popular sentiment was "You don't think Gettleman has an understanding what it is going to take to sign him after trading for him?".

Something along the lines of a handshake and $10-12M/year seemed to be the strike price back then...

:-)




That was a very interesting time.

Indeed, the DG Club was oozing with confidence that DG had Team LW locked down for a very team friendly deal...

So we traded for a guy despite the fact we were going nowhere in 2019 at the time of acquisition. And we really went nowhere in 2020, except that we played in one of the worst divisions ever. Making 2020 a complete mirage...

BTW, with LW in the line-up after the trade on Oct 28, 2019, we are 8-16. A robust 33% winning %.

Yeah, "great trade"...


You really are one of the more ridiculous anti NYG posters ever. Give yourself a cookie.



RE: Im starting to think maybe signing Tomlinson  
djm : 2/26/2021 9:35 am : link
In comment 15162024 JoeyBigBlue said:
Quote:
Is the better long term move for this franchise. Tomlinson brings leadership and run defense to this team. Plus he’ll command 11 to 12 million a year instead of the 20 Williams wants. Williams is great, but how sure are we that he’ll be dominant again next season. He wasn’t in 2019.


Williams has basically been the same player since he was drafted. HE always gets pressures. He always stuffs the run. He never gets hurt.

Did Keith Hamilton get 10 sacks every year? Did Leonard MArshall? ? What about Chris Canty?

I hate to go there, but can we stop treating sacks as the end all be all stat here? Sacks are great, game turning plays but they are residual from other aspects of defensive team play.

Williams is a 4-5-6 sack a year player who can get you double digit sacks. He also consistently finds himself near the top end in terms of TFL and pressure.

Can we stop with this nonsense that 2020 was LW's first good year and he's going to turn into a pumpkin the second he signs this long term deal?

We are so afraid of the big bad contract--get over it already. We should be afraid of losing.

Oliver Vernon isn't why we sucked all these years. Remember that.
mind boggling  
djm : 2/26/2021 9:39 am : link
it really is. We finally field a good defense in 2020. Finally! And now we want to let the best player walk because of money.

Lets sign the safe Tomlinson because he's a team leader? Wtf does that even mean? Who is the better player? Why can't we sign both?

Some have lost their mind with this unfounded fear of signing great players to long term big deals. Live a little. Trust me, It's better to have high paid players.
When I read posts like that I wonder if you  
Jimmy Googs : 2/26/2021 9:41 am : link
ate all the cookies...
I just think there's a warped perception of LW  
djm : 2/26/2021 9:44 am : link
the Jets are fucking clowns. They didn't know what they had in Williams just like they didn't know what they had in McKenzie and John Riggins and Jamal Adams and so so many more. Even now, there are hot and heavy rumors that the Jets want to trade Quinnon Williams. This guy just rocked shop for them in 2020 and seems to have hit his stride but leave it to the Jets to be wary of signing a stud long term.

The Jets blew it. The Giants pounced before another team did, and now we have a shot to keep this guy long term. Get it the fuck done. He's Keith Hamilton part 2. We need that.

Williams was available because the Jets are fucking morons. HE didn't underachieve. He wasn't a bust.
RE: When I read posts like that I wonder if you  
djm : 2/26/2021 9:45 am : link
In comment 15162147 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
ate all the cookies...


Ice cream is my thing. turkey hill praline pecan ice cream. Shit should be illegal.
RE: RE: When I read posts like that I wonder if you  
Gatorade Dunk : 2/26/2021 9:50 am : link
In comment 15162153 djm said:
Quote:
In comment 15162147 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


ate all the cookies...



Ice cream is my thing. turkey hill praline pecan ice cream. Shit should be illegal.

Dude, treat yourself a little better. There's far better ice cream in the world than Turkey Hill.
last thing (for now) I will say on signing LW  
djm : 2/26/2021 9:51 am : link
if the Giants are convinced they can replace LW by re-signing DT, and they want to allocate that money to other areas of the DEFENSE, not the offense, but the defense, ok fine, have at it, but I don't think it's wise to let the bird in the hand walk just so you can take a chance on another player, lets say it's an edge player, while letting LW walk. You are creating a hole just to fill another one and you're letting the known commodity get away. Why.

GMs and scouts are in this business to keep guys like LW long term. If you don't sign LW, who are you going to sign long term? I just don't get the point. LW is as safe a long term bet as any front 4 player going right now save for maybe 1-2-3 other players.

I am sick of losing with average talent up front. You win games with star power up front. We know what we have in Williams. Why on earth would someone want to throw that back for an unknown is beyond me.
RE: RE: RE: When I read posts like that I wonder if you  
Gatorade Dunk : 2/26/2021 9:52 am : link
In comment 15162162 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15162153 djm said:


Quote:


In comment 15162147 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


ate all the cookies...



Ice cream is my thing. turkey hill praline pecan ice cream. Shit should be illegal.


Dude, treat yourself a little better. There's far better ice cream in the world than Turkey Hill.

If that flavor is your thing (I'm also a praline fiend), look for Jeni's Middle West Whiskey & Pecans.

You're welcome.
RE: RE: RE: When I read posts like that I wonder if you  
djm : 2/26/2021 9:54 am : link
In comment 15162162 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15162153 djm said:


Quote:


In comment 15162147 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


ate all the cookies...



Ice cream is my thing. turkey hill praline pecan ice cream. Shit should be illegal.


Dude, treat yourself a little better. There's far better ice cream in the world than Turkey Hill.


I agree. I only bought it one time because it was staring me in the face and was 2 for 1. I usually go with the higher prices pint sized shit or even Breyers. I went the bargain route and it paid off.

Giants need to re-sign the over priced pint of ice cream.
RE: RE: RE: RE: When I read posts like that I wonder if you  
djm : 2/26/2021 9:54 am : link
In comment 15162167 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15162162 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 15162153 djm said:


Quote:


In comment 15162147 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


ate all the cookies...



Ice cream is my thing. turkey hill praline pecan ice cream. Shit should be illegal.


Dude, treat yourself a little better. There's far better ice cream in the world than Turkey Hill.


If that flavor is your thing (I'm also a praline fiend), look for Jeni's Middle West Whiskey & Pecans.

You're welcome.


I will! thanks GD. I never knew I liked Praline cream until just recently.
i just saved a notepad for Jeni's Middle West Whiskey & Pecans.  
djm : 2/26/2021 9:55 am : link
..
RE: last thing (for now) I will say on signing LW  
Jimmy Googs : 2/26/2021 10:00 am : link
In comment 15162164 djm said:
Quote:
if the Giants are convinced they can replace LW by re-signing DT, and they want to allocate that money to other areas of the DEFENSE, not the offense, but the defense, ok fine, have at it, but I don't think it's wise to let the bird in the hand walk just so you can take a chance on another player, lets say it's an edge player, while letting LW walk. You are creating a hole just to fill another one and you're letting the known commodity get away. Why.

GMs and scouts are in this business to keep guys like LW long term. If you don't sign LW, who are you going to sign long term? I just don't get the point. LW is as safe a long term bet as any front 4 player going right now save for maybe 1-2-3 other players.

I am sick of losing with average talent up front. You win games with star power up front. We know what we have in Williams. Why on earth would someone want to throw that back for an unknown is beyond me.


djm - This is a much better post with fair points.

But what many don't seem to understand is that the Giants don't want LW to walk.

He won't sign.
RE: RE: Im starting to think maybe signing Tomlinson  
Ten Ton Hammer : 2/26/2021 10:08 am : link
In comment 15162141 djm said:
Quote:
In comment 15162024 JoeyBigBlue said:


Quote:


Is the better long term move for this franchise. Tomlinson brings leadership and run defense to this team. Plus he’ll command 11 to 12 million a year instead of the 20 Williams wants. Williams is great, but how sure are we that he’ll be dominant again next season. He wasn’t in 2019.



Williams has basically been the same player since he was drafted. HE always gets pressures. He always stuffs the run. He never gets hurt.

Did Keith Hamilton get 10 sacks every year? Did Leonard MArshall? ? What about Chris Canty?

I hate to go there, but can we stop treating sacks as the end all be all stat here? Sacks are great, game turning plays but they are residual from other aspects of defensive team play.

Williams is a 4-5-6 sack a year player who can get you double digit sacks. He also consistently finds himself near the top end in terms of TFL and pressure.

Can we stop with this nonsense that 2020 was LW's first good year and he's going to turn into a pumpkin the second he signs this long term deal?

We are so afraid of the big bad contract--get over it already. We should be afraid of losing.

Oliver Vernon isn't why we sucked all these years. Remember that.



The reality is, when you have to built a team within a pie of 180-190 million dollars and no more than that, where and why you spend your money matters a lot. In an uncapped sport, sure, pay him whatever. You bring up leonard marshall and that's true. Very important key wheel in the machine. He wasn't and would never be paid like LT.

When you make critical mistakes by paying 'good' like they're special, that's how you derail your roster.

This defenses didn't get enough pass rush with williams having a career-best season.

Pay him like that and it reduces your ability to get better and keep your own players.
RE: last thing (for now) I will say on signing LW  
Gatorade Dunk : 2/26/2021 10:15 am : link
In comment 15162164 djm said:
Quote:
if the Giants are convinced they can replace LW by re-signing DT, and they want to allocate that money to other areas of the DEFENSE, not the offense, but the defense, ok fine, have at it, but I don't think it's wise to let the bird in the hand walk just so you can take a chance on another player, lets say it's an edge player, while letting LW walk. You are creating a hole just to fill another one and you're letting the known commodity get away. Why.

GMs and scouts are in this business to keep guys like LW long term. If you don't sign LW, who are you going to sign long term? I just don't get the point. LW is as safe a long term bet as any front 4 player going right now save for maybe 1-2-3 other players.

I am sick of losing with average talent up front. You win games with star power up front. We know what we have in Williams. Why on earth would someone want to throw that back for an unknown is beyond me.

You do realize that if the Giants were a little better at managing the cap, it wouldn't necessitate this game of whack-a-mole every offseason, right? Part of the issue that we have, where we are constantly wondering if we can sacrifice just a little bit on this side of the ball to help that side of the ball, is because we have a ton of small cap inefficiencies every year.

If we tightened that up, we'd have $4-5M (or more, sometimes) of add'l cap space in any given year and could roll some of it over occasionally in anticipation of years where FA is particularly strong, or when a higher number of contracts on the roster are expiring.

Yes, the cap can always be managed on the fly as needed, but that does waste future space by often kicking the can down the road. Being more efficient initially avoids some of those challenges (acknowledging that there will always be a risk of a well-conceived contract going sideways), and also provides a significant amount of additional flexibility along the way, which allows for contracts that can be restructured as needed (so that you're never in a position where the only two contracts you can restructure when you need space are two guys who aren't actually foundational building blocks, like in 2019 when Abrams had to restructure Solder and Ellison to give DG in-season cap space).
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: It was time to reach a deal nearly 1.5 year ago.  
bw in dc : 2/26/2021 10:36 am : link
In comment 15162131 djm said:
Quote:


That was a very interesting time.

Indeed, the DG Club was oozing with confidence that DG had Team LW locked down for a very team friendly deal...

So we traded for a guy despite the fact we were going nowhere in 2019 at the time of acquisition. And we really went nowhere in 2020, except that we played in one of the worst divisions ever. Making 2020 a complete mirage...

BTW, with LW in the line-up after the trade on Oct 28, 2019, we are 8-16. A robust 33% winning %.

Yeah, "great trade"...




You really are one of the more ridiculous anti NYG posters ever. Give yourself a cookie.




I would characterize it more that I am anti-bad football. And unfortunately there is a lot of that going around lately.

Now, I understand you view the cap as nothing more than a mirage, and building a good team is simply buying great players, add water, and stir. But it's a bit more complicated than that, and it would make for better discourse if you understood the nuances of building a team based on positional value within a hard cap.
djm...  
bw in dc : 2/26/2021 10:37 am : link
BTW, I am an ice cream fan, too.
RE: RE: last thing (for now) I will say on signing LW  
djm : 2/26/2021 11:49 am : link
In comment 15162180 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 15162164 djm said:


Quote:


if the Giants are convinced they can replace LW by re-signing DT, and they want to allocate that money to other areas of the DEFENSE, not the offense, but the defense, ok fine, have at it, but I don't think it's wise to let the bird in the hand walk just so you can take a chance on another player, lets say it's an edge player, while letting LW walk. You are creating a hole just to fill another one and you're letting the known commodity get away. Why.

GMs and scouts are in this business to keep guys like LW long term. If you don't sign LW, who are you going to sign long term? I just don't get the point. LW is as safe a long term bet as any front 4 player going right now save for maybe 1-2-3 other players.

I am sick of losing with average talent up front. You win games with star power up front. We know what we have in Williams. Why on earth would someone want to throw that back for an unknown is beyond me.



djm - This is a much better post with fair points.

But what many don't seem to understand is that the Giants don't want LW to walk.

He won't sign.


Thx and understood. I am just venting. I don't want to overpay the guy either. I just want a good defense more than anything.
RE: djm...  
djm : 2/26/2021 11:50 am : link
In comment 15162241 bw in dc said:
Quote:
BTW, I am an ice cream fan, too.


We're kindred spirits!
Duggan has a new article today predicting that LM is staying  
US1 Giants : 2/26/2021 11:53 am : link
.
https://theathletic.com/2412637/2021/02/26/staying-or-leaving-leonard-williams-dalvin-tomlinson-and-giants-free-agents/ - ( New Window )
Paywall  
JonC : 2/26/2021 12:53 pm : link
any new insights?
3 thoughts...  
Dnew15 : 2/26/2021 1:00 pm : link
1.) Duggan and other "reporters" will do anything to get clicks - they aren't even really "reporting" anything anymore in most cases. It's a problem across all media.

2.) The Giants can't replace LW - let's stop pretending that's possible. If he's too expensive, fans need to expect this defense to take a tremendous step backwards.

3.) I love ice cream.
RE: Don't overpay  
giantstock : 2/26/2021 2:06 pm : link
In comment 15161480 bc4life said:
Quote:
they have alot of needs. If he wants too much, see if they can keep DT for a reasonable amount and move on from LW.

I think a frontline of DT. Lawrence, Johnson, and draft picks would be okay.

LW had a helluva year - but he's not Chris jones, IMO


+1000000000000000000000000000000000000
RE: RE: last thing (for now) I will say on signing LW  
djm : 2/26/2021 2:16 pm : link
In comment 15162209 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15162164 djm said:


Quote:


if the Giants are convinced they can replace LW by re-signing DT, and they want to allocate that money to other areas of the DEFENSE, not the offense, but the defense, ok fine, have at it, but I don't think it's wise to let the bird in the hand walk just so you can take a chance on another player, lets say it's an edge player, while letting LW walk. You are creating a hole just to fill another one and you're letting the known commodity get away. Why.

GMs and scouts are in this business to keep guys like LW long term. If you don't sign LW, who are you going to sign long term? I just don't get the point. LW is as safe a long term bet as any front 4 player going right now save for maybe 1-2-3 other players.

I am sick of losing with average talent up front. You win games with star power up front. We know what we have in Williams. Why on earth would someone want to throw that back for an unknown is beyond me.


You do realize that if the Giants were a little better at managing the cap, it wouldn't necessitate this game of whack-a-mole every offseason, right? Part of the issue that we have, where we are constantly wondering if we can sacrifice just a little bit on this side of the ball to help that side of the ball, is because we have a ton of small cap inefficiencies every year.

If we tightened that up, we'd have $4-5M (or more, sometimes) of add'l cap space in any given year and could roll some of it over occasionally in anticipation of years where FA is particularly strong, or when a higher number of contracts on the roster are expiring.

Yes, the cap can always be managed on the fly as needed, but that does waste future space by often kicking the can down the road. Being more efficient initially avoids some of those challenges (acknowledging that there will always be a risk of a well-conceived contract going sideways), and also provides a significant amount of additional flexibility along the way, which allows for contracts that can be restructured as needed (so that you're never in a position where the only two contracts you can restructure when you need space are two guys who aren't actually foundational building blocks, like in 2019 when Abrams had to restructure Solder and Ellison to give DG in-season cap space).


Appreciate the post and your efforts I just don't see the Giants as poorly managing their cap here lately. I am sure there are some contracts or restructures that don't look so good, the ones you mentioned, but we don't know everything that goes on behind the scenes or how much space was truly lost by those deals. Those players sucked..DG didn't even sign some or most, I forgot the whole list. POint is, as i have been saying all along, I think the Giants have more cap space than what these numbers show. I could be wrong. All i know is the facts. The facts are they have barely any long term whoppers.
RE: 3 thoughts...  
giantstock : 2/26/2021 2:24 pm : link
In comment 15162420 Dnew15 said:
Quote:

2.) The Giants can't replace LW - let's stop pretending that's possible. If he's too expensive, fans need to expect this defense to take a tremendous step backwards.



You're over-exaggerating his worth. The GMEN played against a lot of bad offensive teams. He's a good player - I'm all for paying him - but there has to be a limit - and there is a limit to how good he is.

He's not the end-all-be-all.
...  
christian : 2/26/2021 2:45 pm : link
The Giants medium term cap landscape is in good shape because:

1) Jones is in the 3rd year of his rookie deal

2) The Giants only have 10 veterans on significant deals, and 5 of them are likely getting cut in the next 2 weeks

This also reason the Giants suck. They don't have that many good players.

The Giants need to add several more good players, and retain the handful of good young players they do have.

This is a volume game if anything, and the outcome of the offseason can't be Leonard Willims + scraps.
RE: RE: RE: last thing (for now) I will say on signing LW  
christian : 2/26/2021 2:50 pm : link
In comment 15162488 djm said:
Quote:
Those players sucked..DG didn't even sign some or most, I forgot the whole list. POint is, as i have been saying all along, I think the Giants have more cap space than what these numbers show. I could be wrong. All i know is the facts. The facts are they have barely any long term whoppers.


If you don't believe the numbers aggregated by an outlet like Over The Cap, what are the facts you are using to support "not having any long term whoppers."

If a team's cap obligations is a black box secret, who's to say they don't have secret whoppers you don't know about?
RE: Paywall  
Go Terps : 2/26/2021 3:33 pm : link
In comment 15162409 JonC said:
Quote:
any new insights?


Regarding Williams, not really. What is disturbing is he expects McCoy back as the backup. That would be tough to take.
RE: ...  
bw in dc : 2/26/2021 4:47 pm : link
In comment 15162512 christian said:
Quote:
The Giants medium term cap landscape is in good shape because:

1) Jones is in the 3rd year of his rookie deal

2) The Giants only have 10 veterans on significant deals, and 5 of them are likely getting cut in the next 2 weeks

This also reason the Giants suck. They don't have that many good players.

The Giants need to add several more good players, and retain the handful of good young players they do have.

This is a volume game if anything, and the outcome of the offseason can't be Leonard Willims + scraps.


Good write-up.

I know we say it until we are blue in the face, but sooooo much is hinging on Jones being good to validate the third year of his rookie contract.

If he doesn't deliver this year - and I know he still might get the 4th year to prove it once and for all...but I really hope we are not that stupid as a franchise - we will be entering another stage of darkness with this organization. And that should be compelling enough not to sign LW and use that money to give Jones tools to prove his is or isn't the right guy for the job.

The more I think about it, btw, the more I think it would be wise to keep Lance/Fields in play at #11.

Because...

A) It would be insurance if Jones is a dud.
B) If Jones works out, Lance still should have asset value.
C) It puts pressure on Jones to up his game.
D) Lance could be the real deal and it's a huge win.

RE: RE: ...  
Tom in NY : 2/26/2021 8:13 pm : link
In comment 15162587 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15162512 christian said:


Quote:


The Giants medium term cap landscape is in good shape because:

1) Jones is in the 3rd year of his rookie deal

2) The Giants only have 10 veterans on significant deals, and 5 of them are likely getting cut in the next 2 weeks

This also reason the Giants suck. They don't have that many good players.

The Giants need to add several more good players, and retain the handful of good young players they do have.

This is a volume game if anything, and the outcome of the offseason can't be Leonard Willims + scraps.



Good write-up.

I know we say it until we are blue in the face, but sooooo much is hinging on Jones being good to validate the third year of his rookie contract.

If he doesn't deliver this year - and I know he still might get the 4th year to prove it once and for all...but I really hope we are not that stupid as a franchise - we will be entering another stage of darkness with this organization. And that should be compelling enough not to sign LW and use that money to give Jones tools to prove his is or isn't the right guy for the job.

The more I think about it, btw, the more I think it would be wise to keep Lance/Fields in play at #11.

Because...

A) It would be insurance if Jones is a dud.
B) If Jones works out, Lance still should have asset value.
C) It puts pressure on Jones to up his game.
D) Lance could be the real deal and it's a huge win.


If you were the GM of this team, you would run it right into the ground with this plan. They need to load up this team with high quality players at the key positions of Edge, OT, CB, and WR. Your plan is akin to trying to steal 2nd with your foot on 1st. Go all in on Jones for the coming year and give the kid a chance to show you what he can do. Giving away the 11th pick on a project like Lance would accelerate this teams' demise.
RE: RE: ...  
Matt M. : 2/27/2021 2:01 am : link
In comment 15162587 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15162512 christian said:


Quote:


The Giants medium term cap landscape is in good shape because:

1) Jones is in the 3rd year of his rookie deal

2) The Giants only have 10 veterans on significant deals, and 5 of them are likely getting cut in the next 2 weeks

This also reason the Giants suck. They don't have that many good players.

The Giants need to add several more good players, and retain the handful of good young players they do have.

This is a volume game if anything, and the outcome of the offseason can't be Leonard Willims + scraps.



Good write-up.

I know we say it until we are blue in the face, but sooooo much is hinging on Jones being good to validate the third year of his rookie contract.

If he doesn't deliver this year - and I know he still might get the 4th year to prove it once and for all...but I really hope we are not that stupid as a franchise - we will be entering another stage of darkness with this organization. And that should be compelling enough not to sign LW and use that money to give Jones tools to prove his is or isn't the right guy for the job.

The more I think about it, btw, the more I think it would be wise to keep Lance/Fields in play at #11.

Because...

A) It would be insurance if Jones is a dud.
B) If Jones works out, Lance still should have asset value.
C) It puts pressure on Jones to up his game.
D) Lance could be the real deal and it's a huge win.
To me, you ONLY draft a QB in round 1 if you are absolutely certain Jones is not the answer and you are prepared to walk away now. Otherwise, and I think this is where we fall, you put a better team around him and see what you have. If he sucks, you will have another shot at a decent pick to take a good QB next year.
RE: RE: RE: ...  
Jimmy Googs : 2/27/2021 8:38 am : link
In comment 15162688 Tom in NY said:
Quote:
In comment 15162587 bw in dc said:


Quote:


In comment 15162512 christian said:


Quote:


The Giants medium term cap landscape is in good shape because:

1) Jones is in the 3rd year of his rookie deal

2) The Giants only have 10 veterans on significant deals, and 5 of them are likely getting cut in the next 2 weeks

This also reason the Giants suck. They don't have that many good players.

The Giants need to add several more good players, and retain the handful of good young players they do have.

This is a volume game if anything, and the outcome of the offseason can't be Leonard Willims + scraps.



Good write-up.

I know we say it until we are blue in the face, but sooooo much is hinging on Jones being good to validate the third year of his rookie contract.

If he doesn't deliver this year - and I know he still might get the 4th year to prove it once and for all...but I really hope we are not that stupid as a franchise - we will be entering another stage of darkness with this organization. And that should be compelling enough not to sign LW and use that money to give Jones tools to prove his is or isn't the right guy for the job.

The more I think about it, btw, the more I think it would be wise to keep Lance/Fields in play at #11.

Because...

A) It would be insurance if Jones is a dud.
B) If Jones works out, Lance still should have asset value.
C) It puts pressure on Jones to up his game.
D) Lance could be the real deal and it's a huge win.




If you were the GM of this team, you would run it right into the ground with this plan. They need to load up this team with high quality players at the key positions of Edge, OT, CB, and WR. Your plan is akin to trying to steal 2nd with your foot on 1st. Go all in on Jones for the coming year and give the kid a chance to show you what he can do. Giving away the 11th pick on a project like Lance would accelerate this teams' demise.


This team has 6, 4, 5 and 3 wins over the past 4 successive seasons.

Exactly how far do you think the fall really is to "run it into the ground"?
RE: RE: RE: ...  
bw in dc : 2/27/2021 1:27 pm : link
In comment 15162688 Tom in NY said:
Quote:


If you were the GM of this team, you would run it right into the ground with this plan. They need to load up this team with high quality players at the key positions of Edge, OT, CB, and WR. Your plan is akin to trying to steal 2nd with your foot on 1st. Go all in on Jones for the coming year and give the kid a chance to show you what he can do. Giving away the 11th pick on a project like Lance would accelerate this teams' demise.


Look, I know the Giants won't do it. So my thoughts are purely academic. But there would be benefits for a move to add a QB for the reasons cited. Especially if they can address the offensive issues in free agency - WRs and OLs. Then if Jones still can't produce with more help, we could turn to a Fields/Lance.

QB Insurance is always a good investment...
RE: RE: RE: RE: ...  
giantstock : 2/27/2021 2:07 pm : link
In comment 15163009 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15162688 Tom in NY said:


Quote:




If you were the GM of this team, you would run it right into the ground with this plan. They need to load up this team with high quality players at the key positions of Edge, OT, CB, and WR. Your plan is akin to trying to steal 2nd with your foot on 1st. Go all in on Jones for the coming year and give the kid a chance to show you what he can do. Giving away the 11th pick on a project like Lance would accelerate this teams' demise.



Look, I know the Giants won't do it. So my thoughts are purely academic. But there would be benefits for a move to add a QB for the reasons cited. Especially if they can address the offensive issues in free agency - WRs and OLs. Then if Jones still can't produce with more help, we could turn to a Fields/Lance.

QB Insurance is always a good investment...


IMO the only way GMEN should take a QB is if they have him rated quite a bit better than Jones as of right now.

Too much of a gamble to get the QB and then you end up trading him or Jones for anything worse than 11 is no good.
RE: RE: RE: RE: ...  
Tom in NY : 2/27/2021 9:02 pm : link
In comment 15163009 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15162688 Tom in NY said:


Quote:




If you were the GM of this team, you would run it right into the ground with this plan. They need to load up this team with high quality players at the key positions of Edge, OT, CB, and WR. Your plan is akin to trying to steal 2nd with your foot on 1st. Go all in on Jones for the coming year and give the kid a chance to show you what he can do. Giving away the 11th pick on a project like Lance would accelerate this teams' demise.



Look, I know the Giants won't do it. So my thoughts are purely academic. But there would be benefits for a move to add a QB for the reasons cited. Especially if they can address the offensive issues in free agency - WRs and OLs. Then if Jones still can't produce with more help, we could turn to a Fields/Lance.

QB Insurance is always a good investment...


Build the team. Build the infrastructure. Build the defense. Build the offensive weapons. IF Jones fails, then you move on to a new QB with a fully functional team that's ready to win.
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