Via Twitter;
Per @DDuggan21: #Giants and Leonard Williams “aren’t close” to reaching an agreement on a contract extension. The deadline for team’s to use franchise tag is March 9.
Just to add context to this, not being close to an agreement now isn't a big deal. If they're not close in two weeks, then it becomes a big deal. Deadlines drive action in the NFL, so the picture will be much clearer by March 9
It's why the Pats let Welker walk, Belichick was pissed they couldn't agree on a LT deal, and then Belichick wanted the $8M (or whatever it was back then) considered part of the LT deal they tried to negotiate in the off-season the year after the tag.
And that's how I'd think of it too.
The FT year could/should have been one year of a multi-year deal and wiped out $16.1M of guarantees. So, LW absorbs the risk of the FT year, comes out better for it and now the contract looks way worse (for the team).
Just bad business for a team to let a young player play on the FT if they want to sign the player LT.
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but the team cannot seem to find the parts it wants and/or has trouble pulling the trigger.
They did decently last year manufacturing pressures/sacks although that always exposes other areas, and takes a bit longer coming from the front or via a bit of a chase. Maybe they can do it again.
It could be, but I'd be surprised if they spent the dollars on the Edge talent that figures to be available. A lot of warts out there for the projected price range, and the A talent worth the coin is becoming harder to find.
NE typically builds inside out and tries to keep the cost in check. It has worked largely for the Rams as well as the Titans. Giants could be following suit building inside out, up the middle, and strong on the backend. Thus, the allocation of resources on the DL, ILB, CB, and Ryan's versatility to be glue.
Yes, don't disagree. Only suggested the Giants probably do still value Edge but with the poor supply/warts around they have defaulted to dealing without it over the near term. But not because they don't want it.
It's actually kind of admirable they haven't wasted a big free agent dollar deal on some of the recent Edge guys around. Really needs to be found in the draft as noted.
?
In this down cap year market?
I doubt anyone has any certainty about what Williams can get on the open market.
Yes his sacks took a dramatic turn upwards.
His total pressure rate and/or QB hit rate remained +/- the same.
Not sure what his open market value is, and frankly I'd be a little surprised if he performed just as well elsewhere without Tomlinson, Lawrence and Hill as his line mates or in a system largely different from PG's.
I agree with all of your points about production and surrounding cast this year.
But there is money out there. I could see the Colts, who are close to having all of the right parts, thinking LW makes them a great D. The Chargers, who struggled with leads last year, might think LW helps hold those leads.
Crazier bets have been made...
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Could easily see NYG offering $18M AAV over 4-5 years while LW's camp pushing for more than $20M AAV using Chris Jones' deal as a benchmark to surpass.
I wasn't familiar so i looked it up and found this. Seems like a really unique deal, can basically be cut after 2 years with 0 penalty. I'd be open to a higher AAV with this type of structure. Chris Jones Contract - ( New Window )
Jones's deal is what I've thought this whole time would be the benchmark.
One minor note, much of the third year gets guaranteed after the first year. At the time of signing it was 2 years with no penalty to cut. But start of the league year, it's basically a 3 year deal.
That's a good approach for Williams too.
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Isn't it set that the other pick stayed a 5th?
Yeah,but I was thinking it could say something about what he expects in his next deal.
If you really think about it, the fact that the Jets had an escalator for the draft pick built in suggests that even they were not projecting him to be impossible to re-sign. Otherwise, they would have known that the pick was extremely unlikely to improve in the first place.
This is 100% about what happened after the trade - the way LW stepped up his production so dramatically is the issue here, not some inherent refusal to bargain in good faith on the part of LW or his team.
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In comment 15161305 chick310 said:
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but the team cannot seem to find the parts it wants and/or has trouble pulling the trigger.
They did decently last year manufacturing pressures/sacks although that always exposes other areas, and takes a bit longer coming from the front or via a bit of a chase. Maybe they can do it again.
It could be, but I'd be surprised if they spent the dollars on the Edge talent that figures to be available. A lot of warts out there for the projected price range, and the A talent worth the coin is becoming harder to find.
NE typically builds inside out and tries to keep the cost in check. It has worked largely for the Rams as well as the Titans. Giants could be following suit building inside out, up the middle, and strong on the backend. Thus, the allocation of resources on the DL, ILB, CB, and Ryan's versatility to be glue.
Yes, don't disagree. Only suggested the Giants probably do still value Edge but with the poor supply/warts around they have defaulted to dealing without it over the near term. But not because they don't want it.
It's actually kind of admirable they haven't wasted a big free agent dollar deal on some of the recent Edge guys around. Really needs to be found in the draft as noted.
Big, powerful, long, explosive condors are less frequent than ever. Players tend to play a lighter and faster game now, it's all about speed and covering distance and being multiple so your gameplan is flexible week to week. Now you sacrifice size and power versus the run on the edges, play less snaps, come of the field if you're not multiple, etc. Specialization is ok with me but I don't wanna pay A dollars to not A talent, at any position.
So they invest in the big powerful wall up front, and try to build for speed and cover ability behind it. Offenses getting the ball out quicker and running shorter QB drops does tend to limit effectiveness off the edge, etc. The game now is about containment and tackling, bend but don't break.
Yes, of course.
Maybe someday they will find one again.
But what's the benefit to doing that? Tagging LW again, assuming it does not lead to a multi-year deal, basically ensures that the team comes back in 2021 with almost the exact same roster that they trotted out in 2020, plus a few rookies that - we hope - might make a meaningful contribution. We'll also still need to make other moves to keep someone like Tomlinson, including pushing some cap inefficiency into the future with someone like Zeitler.
And what does that get us? We get to keep LW for another year on a roster that isn't otherwise prepared to really contend? And then be in the same spot a year from now when we'd really be over a barrel because we can't realistically tag him a third time.
There are ways to make the contract structure work so that giving him 5/$100 is effectively almost identical to giving him 4/$72. If the hangup is over a couple million dollars worth of AAV, that can be bridged pretty easily. But if it's a significant gap that may (pure speculation here) include resetting the market during a down cap year, you have to be willing to walk away, recoup your 3rd rounder via comp pick, and focus on building the rest of the roster into a contender.
they can restructure other contracts to free up the necessary space
it's not like they need the tag for someone else
my preference is to sign him long-term but i'm just saying tagging him again is not the end of the world
$20M a year will not equate to a $20M cap hit in 2021. That's the issue here - the cap is not calculated on AAV.
As mentioned, there is no credible short-term play here with the NYG seriously competing for a title in 2021. If that is your rational then I understand it. I would vehemently disagree, but would understand it.
I am all ears as to why the tag, absent a long term deal, is the prudent play at all?
This is just negotiating but it's getting weird.
In the end, that could be the case anyway, unless young players start taking significant steps forward. Right now it's a 4-6 win roster until further notice, imo.
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In comment 15161188 CoughlinHandsonHips said:
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A 10+ sack 3-4 defensive end, with no legitimate edge rusher over his shoulder.
LW bet on himself and it looks like he'll win big.
Spot on. Give his team credit, they obviously under the comps and, my guess, the YoY inflation adjustments that will also impact the deal.
Let's be honest here - a deal like is going to make it very challenging to bring in the added infrastructure Jones needs to demonstrate if he has the goods in this crucial 3rd year. And right now finding out what Jones can do is more critical than keeping LW...
It illustrates why the draft (and alot of wheel spinning here under DG is frustrating) is vital to turning this around. I warned resigning Logan could mean saying goodbye to others, the same goes here.
I am sorry this is ridiculous if true. We can't have a decently paid safety and well paid DE?
Look at the 2011 Giants! You had 2-3 highly paid DLinemen. At least 1 highly paid LB. And 2-3 highly paid DBs. Rolle was making a mint. You had Eli making a mint. Jacobs was getting paid. Snee, Diehl, McKenzie, Seubert and Baas all getting paid top end vet money.
We aren't paying a 3rd of the guys now that we were paying at any given time during the Eli / Coughlin run. WTF ? Jon this isn't arguing your point, more WTF with the financials here.
This is just negotiating but it's getting weird.
Most have been rather derogatory for 3 years, so why wait.
You do know it takes two to tango, right? Why is it weird? Player wants big money. Team wishes to minimize. Both want a deal.
It is incumbent on the Giants to ascertain how much of their expectations are wishful thinking and how much is a reasonable expectation and base their offer accordingly.
Let LW test the market and see what offers he gets.
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if they don't get a long term deal done. I am not going there just yet, but this is getting weird. WTF was the point....I have no issues trading for him but cmon already. If you loved him enough to trade for him and he shines in the time he's been here, what's the problem...
This is just negotiating but it's getting weird.
Most have been rather derogatory for 3 years, so why wait.
You do know it takes two to tango, right? Why is it weird? Player wants big money. Team wishes to minimize. Both want a deal.
I pretty much defend DG.
We trade for a player. player plays well. We tag player. Player plays even better. PLayer isn't signed and whispers are growing that there's a gulf? That's a little concerning, but I said I would wait. And I will wait. I just don't wanna here shit other than long term deal reached. No FT bullshit either. Sign the guy.
This is 100% about what happened after the trade - the way LW stepped up his production so dramatically is the issue here, not some inherent refusal to bargain in good faith on the part of LW or his team.
Even if they thought the pick was a long shot to improve,that doesn't mean they shouldn't add conditions to the deal,or that Leonard Williams price tag wasn't too much for them.I get the feeling that in these negotiations,things aren't black and white.
One more thing,and I really thought about this,how do I remove my name from the stalker list
But at some point the Giants are going to need to conclude they will never reach an agreement with Williams on his value.
Free agency is in a few weeks.
This team/overall roster won 6 games last year.
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If you really think about it, the fact that the Jets had an escalator for the draft pick built in suggests that even they were not projecting him to be impossible to re-sign. Otherwise, they would have known that the pick was extremely unlikely to improve in the first place.
This is 100% about what happened after the trade - the way LW stepped up his production so dramatically is the issue here, not some inherent refusal to bargain in good faith on the part of LW or his team.
Even if they thought the pick was a long shot to improve,that doesn't mean they shouldn't add conditions to the deal,or that Leonard Williams price tag wasn't too much for them.I get the feeling that in these negotiations,things aren't black and white.
One more thing,and I really thought about this,how do I remove my name from the stalker list
WTF are you talking about? You made a reasonable point and I made what I think is a reasonable response.
The heart of the issue is likely the immediacy and distribution of the guaranteed money, and if Williams is holding out for a 3 year deal.
Chris Jones / DeForest Buckner is the benchmark. Giants offering anything less is just trying to get a little bit of a hometown discount... I wouldn't tell the man I want you long term for 18 but absolutely not 20... that would be ridiculous. I except it gets done and if it doesn't he will be tagged.
I'm interested in keeping LW over guys from the outside where there's way more variables at play.
It was more about keeping Ryan might mean letting Tomlinson go, which I'd posted a few months ago before they extended him. As much as you're able to move cap charges into future years, it does become finite in terms of actual 2021 cap dollars available.
LW is arguing that he is young and coming off an 11.5 sack season. He likely wants to reset the DT market. I wouldn't be surprised if he's asking for $24m per year.
I don't think the gap right now is $1m or $2m per year, that wouldn't be "not close" on a contract this size.
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In comment 15161345 Gatorade Dunk said:
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If you really think about it, the fact that the Jets had an escalator for the draft pick built in suggests that even they were not projecting him to be impossible to re-sign. Otherwise, they would have known that the pick was extremely unlikely to improve in the first place.
This is 100% about what happened after the trade - the way LW stepped up his production so dramatically is the issue here, not some inherent refusal to bargain in good faith on the part of LW or his team.
Even if they thought the pick was a long shot to improve,that doesn't mean they shouldn't add conditions to the deal,or that Leonard Williams price tag wasn't too much for them.I get the feeling that in these negotiations,things aren't black and white.
One more thing,and I really thought about this,how do I remove my name from the stalker list
WTF are you talking about? You made a reasonable point and I made what I think is a reasonable response.
Then there are the New York Giants , who, make sure , are about to lose their best player . The 4-6 win Giants . What does this clown have to do to get let go ? I say it’s not getting Leonard done on a long -term deal . Forget tagging him . Get it done , or be gone , maybe Abrams , too . Geezus look like a professional organization for a change , will you ?
Just cave if the tag is at all being considered. It's what they should have done last year.
He is practically going to be 59M guaranteed in his first 3 years. Williams will get that or play on the tender.
Then there are the New York Giants , who, make sure , are about to lose their best player . The 4-6 win Giants . What does this clown have to do to get let go ? I say it’s not getting Leonard done on a long -term deal . Forget tagging him . Get it done , or be gone , maybe Abrams , too . Geezus look like a professional organization for a change , will you ?
They have Mahomes in a good position?? His contract is massive, and the impact will soon have significant ramifications. It already may have. They had zero depth on the OL, which just possibly cost them a title. They will be constricted on who they can sign going forward and who they can keep. Mahomes basically signed a contract that has $400M in guarantees!
They were decimated with injuries and opt-outs, shuffling players in and around that starting lineup, and still managed to make it to the Super Bowl supporting a high powered offense.
The Eric Fisher injury may have just been the final straw that broke the camel's back. Especially against a team built to take advantage of it from both edges.
I think a frontline of DT. Lawrence, Johnson, and draft picks would be okay.
LW had a helluva year - but he's not Chris jones, IMO
I think a frontline of DT. Lawrence, Johnson, and draft picks would be okay.
LW had a helluva year - but he's not Chris jones, IMO
I'm not against overpaying mediocre players, but he's 26 and coming off a 11.5 sack season. He's the best, and it isn't even close, pass rusher on the team.
So true. That was the missed window - from the day the trade was executed right up until the season ended in 2019.
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they have alot of needs. If he wants too much, see if they can keep DT for a reasonable amount and move on from LW.
I think a frontline of DT. Lawrence, Johnson, and draft picks would be okay.
LW had a helluva year - but he's not Chris jones, IMO
I'm not against overpaying mediocre players, but he's 26 and coming off a 11.5 sack season. He's the best, and it isn't even close, pass rusher on the team.
Uh, what?
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They have Mahomes in good position . Same as Hill , et al. They’ve been to the last 2 Super Bowls . I was listening to Moving the Chains , yesterday . Jim & Pat were talking about how astute and creative Chiefs’ management is negotiating their contracts.
Then there are the New York Giants , who, make sure , are about to lose their best player . The 4-6 win Giants . What does this clown have to do to get let go ? I say it’s not getting Leonard done on a long -term deal . Forget tagging him . Get it done , or be gone , maybe Abrams , too . Geezus look like a professional organization for a change , will you ?
They have Mahomes in a good position?? His contract is massive, and the impact will soon have significant ramifications. It already may have. They had zero depth on the OL, which just possibly cost them a title. They will be constricted on who they can sign going forward and who they can keep. Mahomes basically signed a contract that has $400M in guarantees!
Our resident contrarian has entered the fray.
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In comment 15161396 ghost718 said:
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In comment 15161345 Gatorade Dunk said:
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If you really think about it, the fact that the Jets had an escalator for the draft pick built in suggests that even they were not projecting him to be impossible to re-sign. Otherwise, they would have known that the pick was extremely unlikely to improve in the first place.
This is 100% about what happened after the trade - the way LW stepped up his production so dramatically is the issue here, not some inherent refusal to bargain in good faith on the part of LW or his team.
Even if they thought the pick was a long shot to improve,that doesn't mean they shouldn't add conditions to the deal,or that Leonard Williams price tag wasn't too much for them.I get the feeling that in these negotiations,things aren't black and white.
One more thing,and I really thought about this,how do I remove my name from the stalker list
WTF are you talking about? You made a reasonable point and I made what I think is a reasonable response.
As I said on other threads, this is not a typical FA situation, where guys really end up getting paid for being underpaid on past production or a perceived huge upside. In this case, LW did not live up to his rookie deal/draft position. He got paid over $17M last year and he produced in line with that. So, he got paid big guaranteed money for the ONE year he ever produced at a high level. Moving forward, it should be solely about whether you think confidently that he can replicate 2020 and do so for at least 3 years. I wouldn't take that risk personally.
That wasn't even close to what I took personally.
It was a dipshit poster getting his tampon stuck over me responding to his post and asking to be removed from a "stalker list" as though he's even on my radar to begin with. I should have been clearer toward him to not flatter himself. There are some posters who I do keep an eye out for - he's not one of them, but maybe he can be dumb enough to reach that level - he's certainly aiming for it.