Would you trade draft picks today with WFT in exchange for winning the division last year?
No fucking way for me.
Many people said a lot of nasty shit to those not interested in a division title for a 6 win season because of the draft disparity.
Do you still feel that way?
If you can guarantee that pick 11 is going to be great and pick 19 will bust - sure I guess I'd rather not make the playoffs. But we've seen too many busts, not just our own, for me to ever root all that hard for picks.
I will NEVER root for the Giants to lose.
Resist Strawman.
Today with the benefit of hindsight, would you rather Philly have won that game?
Would the experience of a playoff game in 2020 outweigh the benefits of drafting higher this year as it impacts the future performance of NY Giants?
For me, for last year, I would rather have the better picks this year.
I’d rather watch the giants in the playoffs, draft pick be damned.
That is much more important than the draft pick.
There should be consistency here. If you didn't want the Giants to back into the playoffs this season, then you shouldn't want them to back into the playoffs any season.
That is much more important than the draft pick.
There should be consistency here. If you didn't want the Giants to back into the playoffs this season, then you shouldn't want them to back into the playoffs any season.
I find that interesting coming from you, because I know that you have said that the effects of one season do not translate into what happens the next on this board. Statistically speaking.
I’d rather watch the giants in the playoffs, draft pick be damned.
That said, it was pretty easy to shrug off at the time, and remains so. We weren't a very good team, and while you never know and all that, it's not like we missed a good chance to make a serious run. I would've enjoyed seeing us in the playoffs, but as seasons go, this was a pretty good one to just miss.
Fans treat those games like the super bowl every year and it meant nothing. It was a quick emotional high.
We tend to lie to ourselves that these wins are more than that just to justify the sugar rush of a candy bar for dinner.
I don't believe the draft is a crapshoot. A particular pick may be, but over time there are teams that do it better than others and it has nothing to do with where they pick.
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rather Philly won taht game. That means that our young players would have the experience of going to the playoffs, and more importantly, that the team would have had a chance to win and advance.
That is much more important than the draft pick.
There should be consistency here. If you didn't want the Giants to back into the playoffs this season, then you shouldn't want them to back into the playoffs any season.
Why? Because you say so?...lol Context matters. Avoid absolutes...have heard that before somewhere.
I find that interesting coming from you, because I know that you have said that the effects of one season do not translate into what happens the next on this board. Statistically speaking.
I have shown repeatedly that there is a lot of turnover year over year in the playoffs and that a good record in one season does not lead to continued success, but I've also said that young teams need to learn how to win and to get playoff experience. It doesn't insure sustained success, but young teams getting postseason experience pays dividends.
I don't think context matters in this case. If the goal is to win a title, there's one way to be eligible - make the postseason.
It is literally impossible to win a title missing the playoffs.
A wild card team won the SB this year.
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Glad they won the division instead of landing an earlier draft position? Of course they are.
Losing might have given them a shot at a very good QB. Not so certain of that.
A very good quarterback like Haskins? Or Rosen? A "shot at a very good quarterback" is nowhere near an achievement. Making the playoffs - no matter how shitty the division was - is a good achievement.
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In comment 15161495 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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rather Philly won taht game. That means that our young players would have the experience of going to the playoffs, and more importantly, that the team would have had a chance to win and advance.
That is much more important than the draft pick.
There should be consistency here. If you didn't want the Giants to back into the playoffs this season, then you shouldn't want them to back into the playoffs any season.
Why? Because you say so?...lol Context matters. Avoid absolutes...have heard that before somewhere.
I find that interesting coming from you, because I know that you have said that the effects of one season do not translate into what happens the next on this board. Statistically speaking.
I have shown repeatedly that there is a lot of turnover year over year in the playoffs and that a good record in one season does not lead to continued success, but I've also said that young teams need to learn how to win and to get playoff experience. It doesn't insure sustained success, but young teams getting postseason experience pays dividends.
I don't think context matters in this case. If the goal is to win a title, there's one way to be eligible - make the postseason.
It is literally impossible to win a title missing the playoffs.
A wild card team won the SB this year.
So you want a participation trophy?
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The best losers get the best draft picks. Give me wins every time.
So you want a participation trophy?
Genuinely don't understand whatever nonsense you're peddling.
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The best losers get the best draft picks. Give me wins every time.
So you want a participation trophy?
huh?
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In comment 15161439 adamg said:
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The best losers get the best draft picks. Give me wins every time.
So you want a participation trophy?
Genuinely don't understand whatever nonsense you're peddling.
6-10, or 7-9 you were still a loser tainted div tittle or not. I would take a better draft pick any time.
Yup, even though we would very likely have been "one and done" against Tampa Bay, I would have taken another "Divisional Crown" (even a somewhat tainted one at 6 - 10) versus 8 slots in the draft that might not matter.
Any team, player, or fan who is "glad they lost" deserves to lose, and when they do, can quite literally be considered a loser. If you wanted the Giants to lose to WAS in 2019, then you are a loser.
Win, win, win. Draft is a crapshoot. Experience, playoffs, taking prep up a notch, camaraderie, program building. Players and coaches benefit. Nobody would be fooled about the team, but, any given Sunday...
Would I trade the slots for the same 6-10 record but we backed in? No. But I have the advantage of hindsight. I know we likely lose first round because Tampa was a force.
We need to win again. Fuck the draft positioning.
And I hope WFT is glad. It would be on form for them to think winning the Chase Young sweepstakes leads to success.
Getting Chase Young still means they have holes at QB, OL and DB. And they now have to figure out how to pay all their top DL guys nearing their 2nd contract.
You know - the things people here claim daily will doom the Giants....
Would I trade the slots for the same 6-10 record but we backed in? No. But I have the advantage of hindsight. I know we likely lose first round because Tampa was a force.
We need to win again. Fuck the draft positioning.
It is not so much draft positioning as it how good you can pick. Barkley, DJ, and Engram, and Apple are good examples of that, which didn’t make the team better.
Not sure their careers, or their team's fate, will be defined solely by a rookie season. Thomas is a big piece of what the Giants needed here and he showed a good bit of that during second half of the season.
This team wouldn’t of learned a damm thing, because the team sucked to begin with, and only because this was the worst division in NFL history they had a shot to get into a meaningless playoff game with a 6-10 record. The only thing they would have learned is that they sucked.
How did getting their doors blown off in the 2nd half against Green Bay in 2016 help Beckham, Flowers, Collins, Shepard, Richburg, Hart, Kennard, Adams?
That team had loads of young players and a young coach.
Would you have traded that game for a top 10 pick?
What if Jones has a great regular season next year, we get to the playoffs and he is awful in the playoffs. I think then we still don't know what we have.
Eli Manning was a average regular season QB with some great comebacks. He was a hall of fame post season QB.
I really wanted to see how Jones would have responded in the playoffs. Some players just don't have what it takes in the playoffs.
What if Jones has a great regular season next year, we get to the playoffs and he is awful in the playoffs. I think then we still don't know what we have.
Eli Manning was a average regular season QB with some great comebacks. He was a hall of fame post season QB.
I really wanted to see how Jones would have responded in the playoffs. Some players just don't have what it takes in the playoffs.
The Giants are now closer now than they were 3 years ago to being a winning team, and with next years tough schedule could be even worse. If you think Jones would be better gaining playoff experience on a 6-10 team think again. If it wasn’t for a division that sucks the most of all time there wouldn’t even be a thought of making the playoffs. Just getting to 8-8 would be a major accomplishment, but with DJ at QB, and the Humpty Dumpty OL as his might not happen.
give me the playoffs every time.
this past season i think the giants would have had a good shot at beating tampa bay.
How did getting their doors blown off in the 2nd half against Green Bay in 2016 help Beckham, Flowers, Collins, Shepard, Richburg, Hart, Kennard, Adams?
That team had loads of young players and a young coach.
Would you have traded that game for a top 10 pick?
You aren't going to find your answer in data. Ask a HC if they think its valuable and let us know what they say.
Root for the win. EXPECT to win every game.
When they lose, look for positives.
For me, the answer to the OPQ is: Win at all costs.
When the team ends up with the better pick because they lost...you have found a little positive in a loss.
I've seen the phrase, "accepting mediocrity."
Meh, we're fans. Unless you're willing to walk away from the team/sport and go fly fishing, you accept reality, keep rooting for wins and finding enjoyment in the moments...or maybe, the after-moments.
Would you have traded that game for a top 10 pick?
You aren't going to find your answer in data. Ask a HC if they think its valuable and let us know what they say.
Not sure what your response means.
But for you as a fan, do you think that playoff experience helped the young coach and young players?
Knowing what you know now would you trade that experience for a better draft pick?
I can't answer your question, I don't coach those players. But i'd rather watch my team in the playoffs than not, the experience is a bonus.
I think the more relevant question is would a GM trade a first round exit in the playoffs for a top 10 pick.
I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I think the thesis for many is the experience is always greater than the pick. I'm just providing a recent relevant example where that doesn't seem true.
The Giants pick 11th in this draft, and would have picked no better than 19th with a Philly win.
I'd trade the shitty playoff performance in Green Bay for the 11th pick in the 2017 NFL draft in a heart beat. Deshaun Watson would have been a much bigger plus to this team.
I think the more relevant question is would a GM trade a first round exit in the playoffs for a top 10 pick.
I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I think the thesis for many is the experience is always greater than the pick. I'm just providing a recent relevant example where that doesn't seem true.
The Giants pick 11th in this draft, and would have picked no better than 19th with a Philly win.
I'd trade the shitty playoff performance in Green Bay for the 11th pick in the 2017 NFL draft in a heart beat. Deshaun Watson would have been a much bigger plus to this team.
They'd have to want to pick Watson, though. I think the only thing that would have changed picking 11 that year is we may have drafted OJ Howard instead of Engram. Remember - it was all about another run with Eli. They wouldn't have drafted Watson if he fell to 23 that year.
Competent management trumps draft position or even a playoff appearance. Go back to the Giants' last three first rounds and play the game of hindsight - you can probably come up with at least a couple dozen scenarios that would have been better than what they actually did.
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by playing well down the stretch would have an intangible impact on the psyche of this Franchise and its players, especially a guy like Daniel Jones.
I am not talking about if we won more games we had played better. I am talking about Philly pulling Hurts and WFT winning the division because of it.
That was good for us IMHO.
There are counterbalanced intangibles here:
- Assuming the best young players remain with the team: Playoff experience a year earlier in their careers is a big plus, win or lose.
- Losing out on the playoffs adds another layer to our divisional competitiveness this year: we beat WFT twice; we beat the Boys when it mattered most; and we hate the Eagles (more) for laying down.