Let's revisit the division title in 2020

.

.

In comment 15161430 adamg said:

Quote:

.

Expand your thoughts. I am listening not criticizing. Genuinely interested.

issue

I would like to see the Giants back to being a fairly consistent winner. That drives me toward the long-term perspective.

much rather have a shot to win it all than staying at home.

I mean - you either want to make the playoffs or you don't, the record shouldn't matter.

If we were 11-5 and missed the playoffs, would this thread be made?

In comment 15161431 George from PA said:

Quote:

.

I am going to say no, they lost in the first round. Speculation on my part but we not good in 2020 and would have been the worst team in playoffs statistically by a VERY large margin.

The best losers get the best draft picks. Give me wins every time.

In comment 15161436 FatMan in Charlotte said:

Quote:

much rather have a shot to win it all than staying at home. I mean - you either want to make the playoffs or you don't, the record shouldn't matter. If we were 11-5 and missed the playoffs, would this thread be made?

no

There’s a good chance WFT may still end up with a better player than who the Giants draft at 11.

I never do, but at 6-10, with our roster, how far we are from competing, I was completely OK with the Eagles pulling Hurts. It worked out for us.

Last year's situation was unique and I am speaking about that circumstance only. I can save you time and concede almost every hypothetical you propose, I am going to agree with you. Last year's team roster and situation specifically.

In comment 15161444 Sean said:

Quote:

There’s a good chance WFT may still end up with a better player than who the Giants draft at 11.

That is true, but all things equal, there should be a stud at 11 that will not be there at 19 in 2021.

the Cowboys were near the bottom, i Couldn't understand why we could never catch up. A friend of mine pointed out that after the Giant's first pick, the Cowboys actually drafted ahead of us for the next 11 rounds (and then had 1 more pick). It's not where you draft, it's who you draft.

In comment 15161451 WillieYoung said:

Quote:

the Cowboys were near the bottom, i Couldn't understand why we could never catch up. A friend of mine pointed out that after the Giant's first pick, the Cowboys actually drafted ahead of us for the next 11 rounds (and then had 1 more pick). It's not where you draft, it's who you draft.

No, the 70s Cowboys changed how players were evaluated for the draft. They were doing things no team was.

Those 70s Cowboys were so deep. Their punter was a better QB than most teams had as a starter.
Gil Brandt - ( New Window )

by playing well down the stretch would have an intangible impact on the psyche of this Franchise and its players, especially a guy like Daniel Jones.

I would take the division title if it meant that our team played well and won big games down the stretch as well as give the Super Bowl Champs a tough fight like Washington did.

In comment 15161461 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:

Quote:

by playing well down the stretch would have an intangible impact on the psyche of this Franchise and its players, especially a guy like Daniel Jones. I would take the division title if it meant that our team played well and won big games down the stretch as well as give the Super Bowl Champs a tough fight like Washington did.

Well said.

facing Brady again would have been fun, and I think we had a punchers chance.

In comment 15161461 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:

Quote:

by playing well down the stretch would have an intangible impact on the psyche of this Franchise and its players, especially a guy like Daniel Jones. I would take the division title if it meant that our team played well and won big games down the stretch as well as give the Super Bowl Champs a tough fight like Washington did.

I am not talking about if we won more games we had played better. I am talking about Philly pulling Hurts and WFT winning the division because of it.

That was good for us IMHO.

I wanted Jones to experience it. I wanted those young players to feel higher stakes and want more of that. To me, #11 vs #19 doesn't mean much. If I lost Trevor Lawrence, ok, I guess that would suck. But we didn't.

.

In comment 15161463 UConn4523 said:

Quote:

facing Brady again would have been fun, and I think we had a punchers chance.

Context. Tampa was playing completely different football at that time. But yes, punchers chance for sure. Maybe win one playoff game, ball can bounce funny. If you are telling me the 2020 Giants could have won the Superbowl, we are just going to have to agree to disagree.

I'm rooting for my team to play more games, not just 16. When you accept that you have zero impact as a fan, the decision gets easier.

If you can guarantee that pick 11 is going to be great and pick 19 will bust - sure I guess I'd rather not make the playoffs. But we've seen too many busts, not just our own, for me to ever root all that hard for picks.

In comment 15161468 adamg said:

Quote:

.

Last year, at 6-10, I was not unhappy Philly lost. I wasn't rooting for it though. I hope you can understand the subtle difference. I even made a comment in a thread that it was win win. If we lost we got a lot better draft pick and if we won I got another week of NY Giants football.

In comment 15161470 Thegratefulhead said:

Quote:

In comment 15161463 UConn4523 said: Quote: facing Brady again would have been fun, and I think we had a punchers chance. Context. Tampa was playing completely different football at that time. But yes, punchers chance for sure. Maybe win one playoff game, ball can bounce funny. If you are telling me the 2020 Giants could have won the Superbowl, we are just going to have to agree to disagree.

And that Tampa performance was the launching point for our 4 game win streak that happened right after.

I said "punchers chance", I stand by that. Feel free to disagree, but I'm not making any sort of bold proclamation.

I personally, think it depended on the match ups....GB and NO would not have been great.....but the Giants defense and improving OL play....we might have done better.

Tampa Bay winning...

I feel with a great off-season....we will be close

In comment 15161473 Thegratefulhead said:

Quote:

In comment 15161468 adamg said: Quote: . Last year, at 6-10, I was not unhappy Philly lost. I wasn't rooting for it though. I hope you can understand the subtle difference. I even made a comment in a thread that it was win win. If we lost we got a lot better draft pick and if we won I got another week of NY Giants football.

If that's where you're coming from that's ok. If you're actively rooting for better picks in the form of the Giants losing or our competition winning, I think you're crazy.

In comment 15161471 UConn4523 said:

Quote:

I'm rooting for my team to play more games, not just 16. When you accept that you have zero impact as a fan, the decision gets easier. If you can guarantee that pick 11 is going to be great and pick 19 will bust - sure I guess I'd rather not make the playoffs. But we've seen too many busts, not just our own, for me to ever root all that hard for picks.

Not the question I posed though.

I will NEVER root for the Giants to lose.

Resist Strawman.

Today with the benefit of hindsight, would you rather Philly have won that game?

Would the experience of a playoff game in 2020 outweigh the benefits of drafting higher this year as it impacts the future performance of NY Giants?

For me, for last year, I would rather have the better picks this year.

what more do you want from me?

I’d rather watch the giants in the playoffs, draft pick be damned.

rather Philly won taht game. That means that our young players would have the experience of going to the playoffs, and more importantly, that the team would have had a chance to win and advance.

That is much more important than the draft pick.

There should be consistency here. If you didn't want the Giants to back into the playoffs this season, then you shouldn't want them to back into the playoffs any season.

In comment 15161495 FatMan in Charlotte said:

Quote:

rather Philly won taht game. That means that our young players would have the experience of going to the playoffs, and more importantly, that the team would have had a chance to win and advance. That is much more important than the draft pick. There should be consistency here. If you didn't want the Giants to back into the playoffs this season, then you shouldn't want them to back into the playoffs any season.

Why? Because you say so?...lol Context matters. Avoid absolutes...have heard that before somewhere.

I find that interesting coming from you, because I know that you have said that the effects of one season do not translate into what happens the next on this board. Statistically speaking.

In comment 15161493 UConn4523 said:

Quote:

what more do you want from me? I’d rather watch the giants in the playoffs, draft pick be damned.

we are good.

winning an awful divison at 6-10 and playing a playoff game in an empty stadium doesn’t really seem like it’d make much of a difference. I was rooting for Philly that night just because i wanted more giants football but I’m fine taking the #11 pick. We didn’t miss out on any sort of big opportunity.

In comment 15161503 Metnut said:

Quote:

winning an awful divison at 6-10 and playing a playoff game in an empty stadium doesn’t really seem like it’d make much of a difference. I was rooting for Philly that night just because i wanted more giants football but I’m fine taking the #11 pick. We didn’t miss out on any sort of big opportunity.

Yeah, this best represented how I felt. It was why I wanted to discuss. MY OP probably should have contained more detail. Traditionally, I have would have been crushed and pissed off forever about Philly pulling a player and costing us a spot in the tournament. Oddly, when they pulled Hurts, I was fine. I saw the good that could come from losing in that spot because of the very unique circumstance. It was historic. 6-10 and the playoffs or 6-10 and a MUCH better draft pick. I did not feel it remotely possible we could advance to the Superbowl in 2020. Chips fell poorly for us in other games, we could have picked even higher.

I was pissed that Philly pulled that shit. I wanted to win, but I thought it was a close call about what was best for the Giants. I convinced myself that it was better to be drafting 8 spots earlier in every round of the draft. But I wouldn't have been unhappy if it came out the other way.

Play the games to win, not to draft.

The players work hard, it would have been nice to see them rewarded for it. And I think it would have been positive developmentally for the team to earn a playoff spot.

That said, it was pretty easy to shrug off at the time, and remains so. We weren't a very good team, and while you never know and all that, it's not like we missed a good chance to make a serious run. I would've enjoyed seeing us in the playoffs, but as seasons go, this was a pretty good one to just miss.

and cowboys last year as if they were big transformative wins or learning opportunities.

Fans treat those games like the super bowl every year and it meant nothing. It was a quick emotional high.

We tend to lie to ourselves that these wins are more than that just to justify the sugar rush of a candy bar for dinner.

The Giants are a prime example of this the last three years. Three offensive players in the top 6, still one of the worst offensive teams in the league.

I don't believe the draft is a crapshoot. A particular pick may be, but over time there are teams that do it better than others and it has nothing to do with where they pick.

then yes. give it to me. it would probably make drafting a guy like Rashod Bateman or Terrance Marshall easier too who i think will be the real longevity WR in this years draft.

Glad they won the division instead of landing an earlier draft position? Of course they are.

In comment 15161499 Thegratefulhead said:

Quote:

In comment 15161495 FatMan in Charlotte said: Quote: rather Philly won taht game. That means that our young players would have the experience of going to the playoffs, and more importantly, that the team would have had a chance to win and advance. That is much more important than the draft pick. There should be consistency here. If you didn't want the Giants to back into the playoffs this season, then you shouldn't want them to back into the playoffs any season. Why? Because you say so?...lol Context matters. Avoid absolutes...have heard that before somewhere. I find that interesting coming from you, because I know that you have said that the effects of one season do not translate into what happens the next on this board. Statistically speaking.

I have shown repeatedly that there is a lot of turnover year over year in the playoffs and that a good record in one season does not lead to continued success, but I've also said that young teams need to learn how to win and to get playoff experience. It doesn't insure sustained success, but young teams getting postseason experience pays dividends.

I don't think context matters in this case. If the goal is to win a title, there's one way to be eligible - make the postseason.

It is literally impossible to win a title missing the playoffs.

A wild card team won the SB this year.

In comment 15161567 Bob in VA said:

Quote:

Glad they won the division instead of landing an earlier draft position? Of course they are.

Losing might have given them a shot at a very good QB. Not so certain of that.

Never root to lose

In comment 15161582 Thegratefulhead said:

Quote:

In comment 15161567 Bob in VA said: Quote: Glad they won the division instead of landing an earlier draft position? Of course they are. Losing might have given them a shot at a very good QB. Not so certain of that.

A very good quarterback like Haskins? Or Rosen? A "shot at a very good quarterback" is nowhere near an achievement. Making the playoffs - no matter how shitty the division was - is a good achievement.

.

In comment 15161576 FatMan in Charlotte said:

Quote:

In comment 15161499 Thegratefulhead said: Quote: In comment 15161495 FatMan in Charlotte said: Quote: rather Philly won taht game. That means that our young players would have the experience of going to the playoffs, and more importantly, that the team would have had a chance to win and advance. That is much more important than the draft pick. There should be consistency here. If you didn't want the Giants to back into the playoffs this season, then you shouldn't want them to back into the playoffs any season. Why? Because you say so?...lol Context matters. Avoid absolutes...have heard that before somewhere. I find that interesting coming from you, because I know that you have said that the effects of one season do not translate into what happens the next on this board. Statistically speaking. I have shown repeatedly that there is a lot of turnover year over year in the playoffs and that a good record in one season does not lead to continued success, but I've also said that young teams need to learn how to win and to get playoff experience. It doesn't insure sustained success, but young teams getting postseason experience pays dividends. I don't think context matters in this case. If the goal is to win a title, there's one way to be eligible - make the postseason. It is literally impossible to win a title missing the playoffs. A wild card team won the SB this year.

Thank you for the clarification. We are not far off then. I think in the special circumstance of last year, the context matters. You don't. You point is reasonable and I used to feel that way until the circumstances of the end of the Philly game. It was so weird for me to be like...OK fine. Today, in hindsight, I am glad. I think there a few impact players to be had at 11.

In comment 15161439 adamg said:

Quote:

The best losers get the best draft picks. Give me wins every time.

So you want a participation trophy?

In comment 15161614 Old Blue said:

Quote:

In comment 15161439 adamg said: Quote: The best losers get the best draft picks. Give me wins every time. So you want a participation trophy?

Genuinely don't understand whatever nonsense you're peddling.

In comment 15161614 Old Blue said:

Quote:

In comment 15161439 adamg said: Quote: The best losers get the best draft picks. Give me wins every time. So you want a participation trophy?

huh?

In comment 15161619 adamg said:

Quote:

In comment 15161614 Old Blue said: Quote: In comment 15161439 adamg said: Quote: The best losers get the best draft picks. Give me wins every time. So you want a participation trophy? Genuinely don't understand whatever nonsense you're peddling.

6-10, or 7-9 you were still a loser tainted div tittle or not. I would take a better draft pick any time.