I believe CB is absolutely a position that we are going to target during this off-season. Bradberry was a stud in his 1st year with the team, but there was a serious lack of depth and talent beyond Bradberry last year. Yiadom simply wasn't an NFL starting caliber CB but that's what he was forced to be.
Due to the lack of talent/depth at CB, it seems as if Patrick Graham was forced to adjust his coverage concepts. When Graham was hired, his use of man-to-man coverage was highlighted and something we expected to see this past season. However the Giants used a lot of Zone last year and the primary reason why is likely because they didn't trust any CB besides Bradberry (for good reason).
Although the defense did a good job overall last season, I'm sure that Graham would like to add another stud outside Corner who he can trust in man coverage. It would add a ton of flexibility to his defensive play-calling.
With the 11th pick, the Giants have a chance to add a potential stud CB in Patrick Surtain II or Caleb Farley. Both guys are projected to go in the Giants' range, and both guys are also potential Eagles/Cowboys draft picks as both of those teams could also look to choose a CB.
I would be interested to see how BBI's draft experts rank Surtain vs. Farley as of today (before any Pro Days).
Surtain: Much more experience in press man coverage than Farley. Considered to have great technique and is an excellent tackler. He was the SEC DPOY in 2020 and a 3 year starter at Alabama. Great size/length. Did not commit a single penalty in 2020. Lacks elite speed and suddenness.
Farley: Great athlete, expected to run much better than Surtain (~4.35 vs. ~4.50). Was a dominant CB in the ACC in 2019, but opted out of the 2020 season. Also has great size/length. Slight edge in ball skills. Questionable tackler. Limited experience in press man coverage but has the physical profile for it.
This feels like a real high floor vs. high ceiling comparison. Although I'd be a fan of both guys being selected by the Giants, I think I'm leaning towards Surtain at this point in time. Bradberry only has 4.5 40 speed yet he was still a borderline All Pro caliber player for the Giants, so Surtain's lack of elite speed doesn't mean he still can't be a great NFL CB. But at the same time, Farley seems to have more natural talent and might have been in the Top 5 pick convo if he repeated his 2019 season in 2020.
What are your thoughts on these two as prospects?
I’m not worried at all about Waddle’s surgery, I just think they may feel that Surtain is a blue chip player, while Waddle is not. WR is a desperate need, but on they can address in FA and later in the draft. CB is a dire need too, and you’re less likely to get a really good one outside of rd 1.
Agree with previous posters about the higher ceiling/lower floor Farley comments.
Having Bradberry as our #1 CB for the next three years would allow Gettleman to justify taking on more short-term risk with Farley. I would be concerned maximizing Farley's long-term potential if he was expected to be #1 on day one.
You have the Alabama connection with Surtain but to me it is less about Judge and more about Graham and his connection to Saban through Belichick....they approach defense the same way.
I also can see Dallas rebounding next year. They had a very injured OL and Dak is coming back. They have a lot of talent at skill positions if Dak and the OL rebound. We need another very good corned to match up with them.
Surtain is also excellent and obviously very polished with excellent bloodlines, but the one that concerns me is his long speed. I mean if you let him cover someone like Tyreek Hill, it's not going to look very pretty. By contrast, you can have Farley travel and cover the other team's best WR, no matter how fast or quick that player is.
But both are excellent prospects and are on my short list at #11.
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I think your summaries on each are accurate, and I lean towards Farley for NYG because of the natural gifts and AA representing more upside, but would be plenty happy with Surtain in Blue.
I think NYG will want a WR at #11, but the only one who might be there is Waddle.
WR is still the #1 position that I think we target at that spot. But I think Surtain/Farley are both likely targets when you consider need/talent at the #11 spot.
If Waddle is gone, my money is on CB.
Surtain is also excellent and obviously very polished with excellent bloodlines, but the one that concerns me is his long speed. I mean if you let him cover someone like Tyreek Hill, it's not going to look very pretty. By contrast, you can have Farley travel and cover the other team's best WR, no matter how fast or quick that player is.
But both are excellent prospects and are on my short list at #11.
VTech - March 26th
It's a broken ankle, I wouldn't expect it to be a long-term hindrance. I just think Smith and Chase are at an elite level, Waddle a shade below that.
VTech - March 26th
Word to the wise - Tech is notorious for gaming their guys' Pro Day numbers. Whatever Farley runs for a 40 time, add a tenth of a second to it.
I am not against picking DB at 11, but the value must meet the needs of the team. If one of these guys is there and they are the best value on the board, then take them, but Giants can't lock on one position before they are on the board.
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cut best CB in this Draft. What sets the two apart is Farley's supreme athleticism. There are simply not many guys who are his size and have his speed, quickness and athleticism. He's still relatively new to the position, but he was a lockdown corner a couple of years back and he's only going to get better with more experience. The one thing that gives me pause is his medical history.
Surtain is also excellent and obviously very polished with excellent bloodlines, but the one that concerns me is his long speed. I mean if you let him cover someone like Tyreek Hill, it's not going to look very pretty. By contrast, you can have Farley travel and cover the other team's best WR, no matter how fast or quick that player is.
But both are excellent prospects and are on my short list at #11.
No one can really cover Hill for more than 2 seconds.
I was using Hill as an example. Henry Ruggs III then
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Not because he's not an excellent WR, but because his game is predicated on speed and he's coming off a broken ankle.
It's a broken ankle, I wouldn't expect it to be a long-term hindrance. I just think Smith and Chase are at an elite level, Waddle a shade below that.
I agree about that Smith and Chase are better, but a broken ankle is still a broken ankle. There's no guarantee that he'll be the same player that he was before.
Probably would say more about the corners in this draft than anything.Most years I would be very happy just getting Farley at 11,if he's there.But in this draft,there are some others who might even be there in the 2nd.Like Samuel Jr,Adebo,and Greg Newsome.
I am not against picking DB at 11, but the value must meet the needs of the team. If one of these guys is there and they are the best value on the board, then take them, but Giants can't lock on one position before they are on the board.
I disagree. We were able to manufacture a pass rush. I don't have the stats in front of me bit I think the Giants had a good year in terms of pressures. I am in no say saying we don't need a pass rusher but in today's NFL you need guys who can cover. We need more of those. It doesn't have to be a discussion one what position is more important. Both are important. I just agree with the opening post that not having that other cover corner made us adjust what we had to do defensively. If you read the transcripts this year you can hear how much was altered this year. About halfway through the season Graham has to really change what he wanted to do. We became a primarily zone based D out of necessity. That flies in the face of what Judge wants. Judge has beaten a dead horse with saying he wants to be multiple. We were anything but on defense. If Graham couldn't get a rush he would have blitzed more. His number was way down from when he was calling plays in Miami. He didn't blitz more. He put more defenders into coverage. Why? He didn't trust the guys on the back end to matchup one on one. That tells me all I need to know. Getting another pass rusher is a given but if that is all we do then expect mostly zone next year. However, if he gets more cover guys he can trust one on one then Graham can blitz more tham he did last year and makes us more multiple.
haha, as I was reading through I was waiting for the inevitability of this comment from Greg. Never seen anyone with such a long standing disdain for a team and everyone and ever was that was part of it at one point in time.
Nor will drafting based on need
What if said weapons grade out as lower than the CBs?
Drafting for need tends to build a less talented team, see 2020 Giants.
Saquon should be close to 100%
2 wr in next 3 rounds
Either ER or CB with other pick
Fill in some defense depth in FA ( cb or ER)
Head in the sand if you don't think CB is a pressing need.
As to where you make the investment, maybe a 2nd round guy can contribute this year. Likely not though. CB is a difficult position to translate to as a rookie. Guys don't just step in and light it up at that position.
You don't draft in first rd based purely on need (was LB the biggest need when we drafted Carl Banks at #4?).
A crappy O doesn't mean we HAVE to pick offense in the first round. This draft is supposedly deep at WR, but not so deep at CB, so we could get a good WR in 2nd rd but maybe not a good CB.
We could potentially draft D in first round and then O the other 5 (I think we only have 6 this yr?). Who knows right now.
Given what we know about the coaching staff I also thing he’d be a better fit as far as what they are looking for.
Given what we know about the coaching staff I also thing he’d be a better fit as far as what they are looking for.
And a capable Man/Press defender. Which fits what they want to be able to do more of.
But this guy appears to do it all. All you hear about is the track speed. PS2 is a stud athlete. Very efficient movements. You can tell he's a well-trained CB. Classic tough, aggressive mentality. He tackles, he's part of a physical defense.
He may not have elite speed, but his strength/length and feel for the game, I don't see him being easy to beat deep.
But this guy appears to do it all. All you hear about is the track speed. PS2 is a stud athlete. Very efficient movements. You can tell he's a well-trained CB. Classic tough, aggressive mentality. He tackles, he's part of a physical defense.
He may not have elite speed, but his strength/length and feel for the game, I don't see him being easy to beat deep.
Agreed. I would be happy with either. Farley has enticing speed and athleticism, but I prefer Surtain for the reason you cite. But I'd still probably take Parsons before either.
I think Waddle will go top 10, before Smith.
So it's not whether you like a guy, or whether he's a need, it's what helps the team the most.
I've come around to the idea that an elite CB prospect is a bit of a luxury right now. An elite WR or pass rusher is a necessity. As for OT, reasonable people can disagree about that.
They went into each year with question marks at the one God position and it right offensive tackle. I am not naive enough to suggest that Andrew, Gates and Ziegler are the equal of their core. But they built the finest line in football off their 3. They were aided by a running back that I don't think was (is?) Better than saquon Barkley and a quarterback who I don't think has the same arm Talent as Jones.
3 Guys forming the core and year after year the best line in football. No reason our core can't form the foundation of at least a confident offensive line.
Almost 3 a.m. now, the argument is about making a pot of coffee and hanging around for a sunrise overlooking a magnificent Reservoir and standing as the only house in protected Watershed property. Bring the cream/ Donuts, leave the arguments about overpaid kids, everybody should get to see this once in their lifetime.
I tend to agree with this view. I'd take Surtain/the Alabama stud over measurables/the raw VT guy.
Similarly Bradberry did not impress me sometimes, either, but then at the end of the game you find out he gave up like two receptions for nada. And he could tackle.
I have a feeling that Surtain would be similarly quiet in games. When you play in the SEC as a CB, you cannot be slow and succeed. Surtain is fast enough.
I'd go with the pedigree.
Here's the reality though. The odds are that one of these guys ends up being a really good player and one of them ends up being a JAG type. And there is nobody on this god-given green earth - not me, not Mel Kiper, not Dave Sy, not Bill Belichek, not Joe Judge, not Dan Jeremiah, not Mike Mayock, not nobody - who can predict with any more likelihood of being right than a blind monkey throwing darts at a dartboard which of the two is going to which! No matter how much people howl at the moon about it it is always going to be a coin flip.
These reported EXOS times do seem to be a little better than expected across the board, so I would take the 4.24 40 with a grain of salt. But even if you add a tenth, he's still a 6'2" 207lb corner who runs in the low/mid 4.3s and it shows up on the field.
As colin mentioned, Farley isn't just an "athlete", he was a very good college CB who just happens to be super athletic. His speed might just be too big of an edge for Surtain to overcome. I'm very interested to see what the "official" workout numbers are for these two.
Just the averages in terms of players that are going to be great vs just ok. There’s no real formula, but that’s usually what happens.
Look at WR - are all 4 or 5 of these guys going to have great careers? Doubtful.
This off-season needs to be largely about offensive improvements for Jones. So I hope the key investments are on that side of the ball.