I've been a little surprised reading the level of optimism with the offensive line. I've seen descriptions like "really something" and "superb" used to describe the line down the stretch, and going into next year.
Not to say I don't think there are positives signs and reasons to be hopeful. Gates had a wonderful season, Thomas rebounded nicely from a tough start, and Lemieux showed strong signs in the run game.
But it's hard for me to square a line hitting its stride down the stretch, with the really dreadful pass protection and difficulty the team had running the ball the last quarter of the year.
I'm reminded of how Tom Coughlin would rate the seasons in quarters. The Giants line had a nice 3rd quarter of the season, but really didn't show up in the 4th.
What am I missing?
The rest are just observations of the symptoms that befall a flawed model.
A human system can move one or two variables and flip to a virtuous cycle ( observe neural network movement for proof)
For a site so starved for ol play it’s just weird how some want to dismiss zietler. He’s not a problem here, at least not yet.
For a site so starved for ol play it’s just weird how some want to dismiss Zietler. He’s not a problem here, at least not yet.
If there is hate - it's wrong. But if you
re suggesting he is worth $12m you're out of oyur mind. You're not being weird - you're being silly.
Who are the 3 you say are good now?
Not worth the time or energy chick. Say what you have to say so I can either explain or apologize. I don't recall taking a shot at you or any particular poster. I don't even connect any opinion or "tribe" you self identify with to or objectionable opinion I ever saw you make.
Could I have been commenting on an opinion or making an observation? Well yes. Its an internet discussion site.
Man up. Maybe post a clear objection or sensitivity so it can be dealt with and we can move forward?
Right Tackle is probably the problem DG/Judge are trying to solve for and they don't want to give up Zeitler just yet until that is resolved. Zeitler often had to support poor play by Fleming or the Tight Ends on the right side and the coaches probably want to rely on his experience one more season before they let him go.
What makes this difficult is that there are competing interests for Zeitler's money...like signing up one or both of the DTs.
To me they are trying to:
1) first solve RT
2) improve LG
3) getting either a replacement or better depth at RG in case Zeitler misses 2 games or more of picks up a performance decreasing season injury
4) get another or better inline blocker at TE
But they also may know Zeitler is slipping faster than they thought so they need a RT and a Guard.
I think the Giants/Jones need OL improvement and a power dependable RB more urgently than one expensive or risky investment in a star quality WR. (they do need the whole corps of WR to be better as a group of options).
Obviously, not all those tasks are going to get done in one off season.
They also need 2 more LB and one more upgrade at CB. (if they can keep DT and LW)
Imo, a lot of what we saw last year was the bottom of the roster improved by youth equal to NFL depth but the starting team were not improved enough with enough better than average NFL players.
Gettleman is more plain desperate than forward-thinking in his moves and he knows his reputation is tied to Jones. Both of those add up to a receiving target coming on board in free agency. DG isn't the type to "let the draft come to him" so he will sign somebody early in free agency so he doesn't get shut out. Probably add another one in the draft as well.
The defense and Oline may lose out on new investment because of the above and the cost of Leonard Williams.
DG's gambles at a leap forward through a "guy" and then what he can find laying around instead of bowing to reality that he needs 7-8 solid players is getting annoying to watch/live through.
DG's gambles at a leap forward through a "guy" and then what he can find laying around instead of bowing to reality that he needs 7-8 solid players is getting annoying to watch/live through.
He always seems to think we are closer than we are
Unfortunately, all that tells me is the non-optimal decision DG would have made became less non-optimal. I am not saying Judge is the holy grail but there is enough evidence to show Gettleman needs to be put out to pasture. Or kept in the building for transition purposes-only, but with a much lesser voice in strategic decisions.
Don't care which one, but lord lets move this along...
DG wants tombstones memorializing his "deals" as he walks out.
Like Accorsi, he wants to talk about his "Unitas" for the duration of his retirement years.
Me, I cant tell if any QB other than a once in two decades talent is good enough given the NYG holes around him.
There was a Unitas once. So what?
Jolting Joe has left and gone away. Glory Days. All the same stew in DGs head im afraid
then a bunch of headcount cuts...mostly obvious,
then comes Free Agency to see if they go all-in desperate or more prudent quality building,
and then a hold your breath pick at #11.
Good night, man...
To me they are trying to:
1) first solve RT
2) improve LG
3) getting either a replacement or better depth at RG in case Zeitler misses 2 games or more of picks up a performance decreasing season injury
4) get another or better inline blocker at TE
But they also may know Zeitler is slipping faster than they thought so they need a RT and a Guard.
I think the Giants/Jones need OL improvement and a power dependable RB more urgently than one expensive or risky investment in a star quality WR. (they do need the whole corps of WR to be better as a group of options).
Obviously, not all those tasks are going to get done in one off season.
They also need 2 more LB and one more upgrade at CB. (if they can keep DT and LW)
Imo, a lot of what we saw last year was the bottom of the roster improved by youth equal to NFL depth but the starting team were not improved enough with enough better than average NFL players.
Here's why a WR is preferred over 1st round pick of OL.
In regards to RT; If you are going to draft a RT in 1st round and aren't going to give Peart much of a chance to win the starting position, then what was the point of drafting him?
In terms of LG- you are just going to throw in the towel for both Hernandez and Lemieux?
The WR core is poor. WR is a valued position. You can't be wrong here in drafting a WR when the core is pretty lousy.
And sure you can keep Zeitler - but if you do- say goodbye to LW or DT. For a team not going anywhere it sort of stinks having such a high priced Guard that is slipping and letting go of some young, productive players.
In a system where one component is 20% of the sum, making a big leap isn’t a marathon. Increase your odds, don’t really, really hope 4 games in the Fall were a vision.
The Giants have 22.5M wrapped up in Zeitler and Solder next year. Take that in for a moment. A pretty reliable interior guy like Graham Glasgow got 24M guaranteed total last offseason.
Pretty easy decision. Stop the gymnastics trying to justify keeping older players, and go pay a better younger player.
Is the turnstile door in the O-line coaching office; (3 different ones in two years, not good when one of the most important traits of good O-line play is consistency) Put yourself in the players's and tell me your level of play isn't going to suffer !
Hernandez had COVID; reminder - that's something that often KILLS people; his play wasn't up to par, when he came back. You think maybe, that had something to do with it ????
Zeitler is as good as good as he's gonna get; I'd try to figure out a way to get him and his big salary out-of-town.
Solder was good at New England, then came here and laid an egg. I think he may be the biggest surprise; I don't think his head was pointing the right way, with his little boy being as sick as he was. Hopefully that's solved and Nate can earn what he's being paid
Pretty easy decision. Stop the gymnastics trying to justify keeping older players, and go pay a better younger player.
In rd 2 take an interior lineman, or take a Tackle and convert him to guard.
In rd 3 or 4 take a Tackle that can also play guard.
And we agree that the NYG do not currently have any WR that matches that definition.
So far, I do not see a cost to likely production FA WR nor an available ( I am assuming the top WR is drafted before slot 11) sure thing Number 1 WR.
I see a WR at 11 that could be easily injured/easily gimmick and easily defeated over a five year contract by size risks and need to get off the line by themselves against NFL corners.
Separately, as for the argument that one doesnt waste a prior pick:
IMO, motivated humans improve capabilities at a 8-15% per year average.
In an industry with an average career of 4 years and a physical breakdown rate of 15-25% per year (notice most rosters turnover at a rate of 25% per year) and a limited number of cap controlled intakes per year, we fans have to balance the desire for attractive human stories with the reality that every year we have to view many of the prior decisions as a sunk cost of we can get better at pay for performance.
Am I rooting for Lemieux to be Chris Snee v.2.0? Of course. Am I rooting for Matt Peart to be a low cost but Kareem McKenzie performer? Of course.
Can our fandom run this kind of meat grinder business?
imo, no. The objects of our hopes upon last years draft day now have a career expectancy of 3 years. So we have to hope but prepare.
Was it good to root for a great end for Eli? Sure.
Was it smart to not have an answer ready for every year past 35? Imo, it was downright malpractice and why we are where we are.
I suspect we really agree on these realities but are expressing hopes some narratives and people exceed the norm
I said the same thing about Gates last year - you can't keep guys like that off the field. Tenacious, take no prisoners SOB's up front. Was out-physicaling physical NFL players as a rookie, who were bigger & stronger than him on paper.
As expected, Lemieux had some technique flaws in pass pro but overall, he was a big time surprise for us. If he's worked hard on his technique he can be a great player in this league. Bill2 - he doesn't remind of Snee - but he sure reminds of Seubert.
I realize this seems to be a minority opinion but to me, Lemieux > Hernandez even before COVID.
LG - Shane Lemieux
C - Nick Gates
RG - Kevin Zeitler
RT - Nate Solder
*Giants re-structure both Zeitler & Solder to free up cap space. Instead of getting rid of these guys - keep them while creating more immediate cap space. Zeitler/Solder veteran right side. Communication & recognition should not be a problem. Solder has played RT before.
*If Peart comes on like gang-busters and can't be denied, Solder is the primary swing OT. OK paying him $$$ to do that for 1 year.
*Hernandez given every opportunity to win either G spot.
--------
1 thing I don't want is the rotation on the OL again. Prefer settling on a definitive starting 5 and w/max reps.
Paced by Thomas & Gates, this is an OL that should be very effective week 1. I am saying this for the first time in what feels like 10 years. Daniel Jones may have a Pro Bowl LT and Pro Bowl C - boy does that make a QB's job easier. Get the #1 WR and he may shock the world.
Unless of course, Hernandez was the first case of the virus and he's been dealing with it since Sept 2019 when his play took a turn down.
How many times does this need to posted?
Unless of course, Hernandez was the first case of the virus and he's been dealing with it since Sept 2019 when his play took a turn down.
How many times does this need to posted?
Who was will playing next to in 2019? You think that might have something to do with it?
Please show me a quote from a coach on the giants saying he got benched because of his play.
I'll wait........
I think the Giants have two clear players to be optimistic about — Thomas, who’s ultra talented, and Gates who had a fine season at center.
- Solder is old, 3 seasons removed from component football, a decade removed from playing right tackle, and prohibitively expensive
- Zeitler is generously on the back 3rd of his career, had some terrible stretches of play last year, and prohibitively expensive
- Hernandez was really disappointing in 2019, and a non-factor last year
- Lemieux is a consistent liability in pass protection, and is the reason he was a late round pick
This reminds a little of the arguments about how fine the skill players would be last year, because everything was destined to fall into place.
My question is, would it be remotely surprising if it doesn’t?
Quote:
fans on BBI will go to really silly lengths to put up excuses for all-things Giants.
Unless of course, Hernandez was the first case of the virus and he's been dealing with it since Sept 2019 when his play took a turn down.
How many times does this need to posted?
Who was will playing next to in 2019? You think that might have something to do with it?
Please show me a quote from a coach on the giants saying he got benched because of his play.
I'll wait........
Solder. He played next to him 2018 as well. What are you implying that Solder (and Thomas) made Hernandez play worse after a good rookie year?
And not sure I get the need for a quote about benching. As bad as the starting O-line has been, do you really think that turning to the even-weaker Giant reserves on the bench in 2019 and before Covid affected him in 2020 was an answer?
Hope you didn't wait long...
I think the Giants have two clear players to be optimistic about — Thomas, who’s ultra talented, and Gates who had a fine season at center.
- Solder is old, 3 seasons removed from component football, a decade removed from playing right tackle, and prohibitively expensive
- Zeitler is generously on the back 3rd of his career, had some terrible stretches of play last year, and prohibitively expensive
- Hernandez was really disappointing in 2019, and a non-factor last year
- Lemieux is a consistent liability in pass protection, and is the reason he was a late round pick
This reminds a little of the arguments about how fine the skill players would be last year, because everything was destined to fall into place.
My question is, would it be remotely surprising if it doesn’t?
If we are honest, and young guys develop, we can likely rely on Thomas, Gates to be solid. We can be hopeful that Peart develops and Lemiuex develops where while he is a liability in pass protection he is "adequate enough" to work with. I would not be shocked if Lemiuex is our future OC.
I guess a lot will be revealed in the draft and with any cuts.
This should be the beginning of a competitive window — Jones years 3-5 and Barkley years 4-6. This the sweet spot.
My dream outcome this offseason — sign Joe Thuney and Kelvin Beachum. Redistribute the considerable money Solder and Zeitler make into a top pedigree guard like Thuney. Replace Fleming with a swing tackle who can play either side at a component level.
Thomas, Lemieux(Hernandez), Gates, Thuney, Beachum (Peart)
The Giants got Cleveland to assume aridiculous contract tied to a non-the productive player. At the time of the trade 1 general manager remarked that we were lucky to be able to give Vernon away for nothing. The current rumor has Cleveland cutting Vernon so they can get some breathing room.
We had to take contract back.
And, whether ill advised or not, we were still trying to win with Eli. So when comments are floated about Ziegler's salary I tend to mitigate them based on those circumstances.
The Giants got Cleveland to assume aridiculous contract tied to a non-the productive player. At the time of the trade 1 general manager remarked that we were lucky to be able to give Vernon away for nothing. The current rumor has Cleveland cutting Vernon so they can get some breathing room.
We had to take contract back.
And, whether ill advised or not, we were still trying to win with Eli. So when comments are floated about Ziegler's salary I tend to mitigate them based on those circumstances.
What bearing does that have on the future of the Giants?
But if you are saying is right that there is no clear number 1 WR – then yeah no way I’d take a FA or use it on the number 11 pick. I don’t know if there is or not but what I find interesting is the subject you broach upon is wanting a power back. Part of the reason why I want a WR is that I want a playmaker because while I’m hopeful for Barkley – I don’t trust him. And if your team doesn’t have legit very good weapon, football is near unwatchable and your team is just going to be a loser. SO for secondary reasons if Barkley doesn’t work out – I’m hopeful a WR can take his place in terms of being a terrif threat. Otherwise Jones is just going to get killed again for another year unless the OL is terrific. Maybe someday in the future they can be real real good but they aren’t right now.
As a result, as much as a despise DG – I’m hopeful he and Judge have made and can make the right choices. OS rather than just be negative I’m hopeful of the following and willing to see what happens:
Hopeful of Jones.
Hopeful of Barkley performing well.
Assuming G-men have 2 good OL – hopeful that RT Peart can perform well as well as LG’s Hernandez and Lemieux.
Hopeful that if they keep Zeitler and/or Solder, G-men can still have respectable defense due to the two OL’s large salary without near as much production as LW and DT.
Hopeful that if Barkley doesn’t perform well that the G-men will have a stud number 1 type of WR.
If most of these hopeful scenarios turn negative – I hope there would be some common sense to fire Resume Dave. It seems your view is that GMEN are going to suck yet again – and the way Resume Dave has led us down a particular path- that he “more-than-likely” should be canned by season’s end, correct?
For me—I’m giving him a chance to see what the above can do. If G-men draft OL high and/or pick up an expensive FA along with draft high OL—and the combo of Barkley/Jones don’t win enough in an outright crummy division – then Resume Dave needs to be canned. I don’t expect Giants to be good but neither should they be awful if over-the-years and now the picks and FA’s workout (because they aren’t the deliberate tanking type).
Quote:
In comment 15163398 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
fans on BBI will go to really silly lengths to put up excuses for all-things Giants.
Unless of course, Hernandez was the first case of the virus and he's been dealing with it since Sept 2019 when his play took a turn down.
How many times does this need to posted?
Who was will playing next to in 2019? You think that might have something to do with it?
Please show me a quote from a coach on the giants saying he got benched because of his play.
I'll wait........
Solder. He played next to him 2018 as well. What are you implying that Solder (and Thomas) made Hernandez play worse after a good rookie year?
And not sure I get the need for a quote about benching. As bad as the starting O-line has been, do you really think that turning to the even-weaker Giant reserves on the bench in 2019 and before Covid affected him in 2020 was an answer?
Hope you didn't wait long...
I notice you left out Pio in your answer. And yes I think playing between those two might effect his play being olineman rely on each other so much.
And if you think his play before covid was bad you don't know what your watching. He was solid early in the year.
Notice he played every snap before covid. There were no reports of SL getting reps in practice. He gets covid and SL gets his head handed to him, especially in pass protection. WH comes back and there is a rotation. If SL was better why rotate? You already know what WH is.
No comment from the coaches that he lost his job because of his play.
Now a legal question for the lawyers here. Let's say WH was suffering from side effects from covid. Are the giants allowed to talk about it? It's an illness not an injury. Notice when guys get sick the never tell what the illness is. So let's say WH was healthy enough to dress and play some but not the entire game due to covid side effects, are the giants allowed to say so?
And if you think WH was playing solid in 2020, you don't need a lawyer, you need optometrist...
It's an odd year without the usual information to draft well, with a weird cap situation and most of all the unknown of slot 11 in a unclear year...all leads to a lot of speculation.
Doesn't help that the Giants have so many needs they could get better by going in many different directions. Yet every choice counts a lot this year.
Tired, tired and tired of this rebuild.
Take care
And if you think WH was playing solid in 2020, you don't need a lawyer, you need optometrist...
Good division 3 line.
As a mattered of fact I am think many of you vastly overestimate the team and Judge based on the last 8 games. He need home runs in the draft and FA this year. Can't miss. I am tired of double digit loss seasons. Show me, don't tell me. I don't give a FLYING FUCK what ANY MOTHERFUCKER says in front of camera, from the owner to the water fucking boy.
Show me on the DAMN FIELD. That is where I am as a fan. Not my fault. 15-33. Own your score. That is who and what this team is until they do something different. Words are useless.
1) A lot of last year was against poor teams
2) I think coaching got the talent to their NFL floor whereas previous coaching staffs got the "talent" below their floor
3) A rookie 5th rounder rarely becomes an above average NFL guard
4) Ditto a 3rd round OT developmental prospect becoming an above average NFL OT. We have had tons of good observable long arms, height/weight measurement guys...we have not had many become NFL average much less above average NFL talents.
5) A second round pick from the recommendations of the prior regime of scouts and coaches who played on a poorly coached disastrously losing program is an iffy probability for an above average NFL OG if his play still shows holes. Hernandez looked good as a rookie compared only to our collection of terrible OL.
6) Gates has done well considering he was a UDFA depth signing as assessed by the entire OL hungry NFL.
It must be noted that DG was given an OL with Hart/Flowers/Richburg and Pugh...all leaving or should have. Among the things he could have done better...imo...the OL was always going to take a few years and have overpays and mistakes. So the state of the OL with at least much better depth and some players who turned in performances than give credence to their potential upsides is actually an OL where some but far from enough support the potential of average or above average NFL players.
That's just my opinion and of all the positional units I am least able of analyzing DB and OL play. I just cant observe technique fast enough...only outcomes or pre-selected youtube highlights
As a mattered of fact I am think many of you vastly overestimate the team and Judge based on the last 8 games. He need home runs in the draft and FA this year. Can't miss. I am tired of double digit loss seasons. Show me, don't tell me. I don't give a FLYING FUCK what ANY MOTHERFUCKER says in front of camera, from the owner to the water fucking boy.
Show me on the DAMN FIELD. That is where I am as a fan. Not my fault. 15-33. Own your score. That is who and what this team is until they do something different. Words are useless.
Like I keep saying this line as it is now is Humpty Dumpty, and can’t be fixed. Not much talent, and just plain sucks. The jury is still out big time on Thomas, and SL, and WH are nothing but back ups. Peart is another still on trial, and Gates looks good, because everyone else is so bad. No changes in talent will be no changes in performance.
1) A lot of last year was against poor teams
2) I think coaching got the talent to their NFL floor whereas previous coaching staffs got the "talent" below their floor
3) A rookie 5th rounder rarely becomes an above average NFL guard
4) Ditto a 3rd round OT developmental prospect becoming an above average NFL OT. We have had tons of good observable long arms, height/weight measurement guys...we have not had many become NFL average much less above average NFL talents.
5) A second round pick from the recommendations of the prior regime of scouts and coaches who played on a poorly coached disastrously losing program is an iffy probability for an above average NFL OG if his play still shows holes. Hernandez looked good as a rookie compared only to our collection of terrible OL.
6) Gates has done well considering he was a UDFA depth signing as assessed by the entire OL hungry NFL.
It must be noted that DG was given an OL with Hart/Flowers/Richburg and Pugh...all leaving or should have. Among the things he could have done better...imo...the OL was always going to take a few years and have overpays and mistakes. So the state of the OL with at least much better depth and some players who turned in performances than give credence to their potential upsides is actually an OL where some but far from enough support the potential of average or above average NFL players.
That's just my opinion and of all the positional units I am least able of analyzing DB and OL play. I just cant observe technique fast enough...only outcomes or pre-selected youtube highlights
My biggest issue with how the OL was attempted to be rebuilt was that DG tried to use Free Agency to do it.
As you said, in an OL hungry league, it has gotten really hard to find good OL in Free Agency. It's not even remotely like it was 10 or 15 years ago. If the teams have good ones that still have mileage, they don't let them hit the open market.
It's my opinion that much more draft capital should have been invested in the OL in 2018, and 2019. Look at the investment last year, and while the line is nowhere near good enough, we are seeing the first glimmers of hope. That kind of investment should have been happening in both 2018 and 2019.
That would have also saved us from these ridiculous Solder and Zeitler contract as albatrosses weighing us down.
So far, I do not see a cost to likely production FA WR nor an available ( I am assuming the top WR is drafted before slot 11) sure thing Number 1 WR.
I see a WR at 11 that could be easily injured/easily gimmick and easily defeated over a five year contract by size risks and need to get off the line by themselves against NFL corners.
Separately, as for the argument that one doesnt waste a prior pick:
IMO, motivated humans improve capabilities at a 8-15% per year average.
I'm very concerned about this specifically myself. I can feel the desire from the Giants brass to get a #1 WR but based on how this offseason is shaping up it looks like what will be available to meet this desire won't be worth what it costs.
IMO Jones needs a playmaking receiver on the outside and while I like Waddle a lot, I don't really like his fit with the Giants and Jones. Chase or Smith would be better fits IMO but I don't see them being there at 11 and even if they are there and more to the point of this thread it would be very risky to not do everything possible to sure up the OL AND make a large investment in a WR.
I think we can be reasonably confident we have an above average LT and C. If we can find a way to get a good LG and RT we could be a playoff team or one great player at those positions and some overall development.
If we do this I think we can get away with a 2nd or 3rd round WR or smart FA WR signing. (Don't think Robinson, Davis, Golladay, or Godwin would be that)
I'm as big of an advocate of spreading out resources as anyone I just feel like I'd give the Giants more credit for missing in other areas of we could say for once "hey we might have a little too much talent on the OL" as opposed to the opposite situation we've had for over 10 years now.
That is all to say, I can see Jones taking a big step forward this year without a real #1. (In this scenario they'd have to have a creative rushing attack with lots of movement and misdirection with Jones and Barkley)
I can't see Jones taking that step forward if they aren't much better next year than were this year even with a playmaker at WR.
On the flip side, if the OL doesn’t improve, it won’t matter what WR is brought in.
The Giants have been reactive to team needs since 2013. It would be very foolish to think the OL is “set” based on last year. The roster still needs an influx of talent into the infrastructure. The foundation isn’t set yet, but another offseason working on it can really put this franchise in a good position. Not to mention, this would help Saquon.
Thanks, some time away from BBI was nice. (Even though I still would read it most days lol)
I decided to really commit to my continuing education for the rest of the pandemic in December and jumped into deep learning. I was particularly interested in LSTMs and GRUs. It's been years since I've really done any coding outside of some database and/or feature engineering code. I'm glad I did too, it's been super interesting to come back to after so many years
They can't afford to get much better on offense because of the money they're paying Solder and Zeitler.
A few issues with Zeitler -- he has one expensive year on his deal, he's older, and he's not been consistent. One of those you can deal with. All three, I don't think you can.
Cutting Zeitler and Solder saves 36.5M over the next two years.
Andrus Peat was the most expensive interior lineman signed last year -- he has 34M total guarantees in his contract. His cap hit in the first 3 years of his deal isn't even 30M.
Point being, the Giants can go get a high paid, younger interior lineman and swing tackle with the savings of cutting Zeitler and Solder.
I want to make it clear, there is no Zeitler hate. He is an ok guard on the downside of his career. The ONLY issue with Zeitler is his 12.5M salary and bonuses that he is due this year.
In a normal cap year, he is no longer worth that kind of money. In this reduced cap year his price is way out of whack. There is about to be a glut of veterans like him available on the market. We are seeing it already with players like Van Noy, and Rudolph cut. Heck JJ Watt had to sign a 2 year contract worth less than 16M per year. That should put this years pay scale in better light. It is a buyers market right now. Prices have to go down... In addition, the Giants should be negotiating hard with LW. I doubt there are teams out there willing to pay him 18+M per.