Offensive Line - Performance and Expectations

I like Gates & Thomas. The rest of the OL...up in the air.

.. Thomas, Gates and Zeitler. I haven't been super happy with Hernandez or Lemieux. Lemieux is easy to root for but not a good pass protector. And we need someone to step up at RT.

2 others, wishful thinking....that must be stabilized this off-season.

Another who must lower his cap.

Anyone using words like "superb" etc are off their rocker.

We're hopeful they have the start of something good with their Tackles.

In comment 15162706 giantstock said:

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Anyone using words like "superb" etc are off their rocker. We're hopeful they have the start of something good with their Tackles.

Two words for the Oline. Humpty Dumpty.

That calims that "the OL has been fixed".

My question is that fixed as in a chair or fixed as in a cat?

Mostly its been the cat...

While the line is improved, I would hardly call it fixed (as in a chair), let alone use any superlatives like "superb".

There are still 3 positions in flux in my mind. LG, RG, and RT. Peart of Lemieux may step up and become a solid starter but that is by no means assured. Look what has happened with Hernandez. Everybody penciled him in as a 10 year starter after his rookie year. I'm not even sure what we have with Thomas yet. Improvement in players is not guaranteed. The line needs significantly more investment before it will be "fixed" as in a chair.

most of the season. Esp. in obvious passing situations. The line is still not good, and it is the key to this team becoming decent again. We all witnessed how Mahomes struggled with a patched up, ineffective line. That's what Jones deals with on a weekly basis. Yes, the young line showed signs of growth, but they still need to add a beast or two.

Will give it credit for.

Thomas struggled early with his footwork. Once he got that fixed, talking about planting his right foot, he showed that he has what it takes to be a very good LT in this league. He was good in the run game all year. It took Garrett a while to realize it and to start running left. When they did the run game got better.

WH played well early. Didn't look like it because Thomas struggled early in pass protection. Until a coach says otherwise I'm convinced covid did him in the second half.

Gates was good after the first couple of games. And he got better as the season went along.

Zietler is what he is. A solid pro. You might not like what he's getting paid but he is a good to very good guard.

RT is the question mark. What is Peart? He was a third round pick. A development guy. He got some time early and looked the part. Catches guys instead of punching. He needs to fix that.

There is reasons to optimistic about this group. They need to continue to grow and get better but this pessimistic attitude that everyone sucks is just wrong.

You can't discuss the giant line without noting The Perfect Storm they faced. A rookie forced into starting at the critical left tackle position. The Lac of the preseason much more debilitating than a team that had continuity. A center - and you could easily call him the nerve center since he calls the blocking assignments - who wasn't just new but had never played the position before .
16 live scrimmages and you send out a bunch of players who don't know each other's names.
As if that wasn't bad enough, the next thing is 2 take away the threat that the entire offense was built around. Then you insert a journeyman running back.
That's the context they should be used to judge their performance and their potential. It's all a crapshoot, but as of this writing the line should have 3 very good starters. For all the hollering and handkerchief waving here Hernandez should be a solid, and by this time experienced, starter.
So I believe they are set at 4 positions and they will have a year of continuity and good coaching. That leaves one position unsettled and I'd argue that very few teams don't have at least one position that's a question mark.
We go into the year with interested candidates 4 that alleged weakness. If his personal problems are behind him oh, there is no reason to suppose, again all the Wailing here notwithstanding, that solder won't provide leadership and solid capability. And if you watch the Peart last year and you weren't excited, you have no heart just an agenda. So, before the draft, and before free agency, we have solder and Peart at the position of weakness.
And as a final note, it is reasonable to expect exponential growth from Gates. He is strong enough to handle a nose one on one, he pulls effectively, he's beyond nasty and the alpha male every line needs.
You can reasonably assume the same exponential growth for Andrew.
Mr. Saquon Barkley makes every one of them better, just by tying his laces.
Ruling out catastrophic injuries, it's very hard to draw a viable worst-case scenario. Not to be redundant, but the only unsettled position is offensive right tackle, and boy, solder and Peart provide exciting alternatives.

I have no doubt that some of our Weeping Willy's can make chaff from wheat. They are like the professional mourners I've seen in Greece some 50 years ago and good at their craft because they practice it so relentlessly and diligently. I have to laugh when they say "well, there's three sold solid starters, but not much after that, only Hernandez, Scott Lemieux, Solder and Peart and this before the draft and free agency".
That lacks cogency when I write it, somehow they say it and accept it as gospel - need over logic every time..
Nothing is sure in this league, but there is a very high probability that this line will be good, and like Topsy ", " daily growing".
Pls. Make allowance for typos, 2 a.m., phone dictation and a relentless autocorrect.

In comment 15162787 Grizz99 said:

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You can't discuss the giant line without noting The Perfect Storm they faced. A rookie forced into starting at the critical left tackle position. The Lac of the preseason much more debilitating than a team that had continuity. A center - and you could easily call him the nerve center since he calls the blocking assignments - who wasn't just new but had never played the position before . 16 live scrimmages and you send out a bunch of players who don't know each other's names. As if that wasn't bad enough, the next thing is 2 take away the threat that the entire offense was built around. Then you insert a journeyman running back. That's the context they should be used to judge their performance and their potential. It's all a crapshoot, but as of this writing the line should have 3 very good starters. For all the hollering and handkerchief waving here Hernandez should be a solid, and by this time experienced, starter. So I believe they are set at 4 positions and they will have a year of continuity and good coaching. That leaves one position unsettled and I'd argue that very few teams don't have at least one position that's a question mark. We go into the year with interested candidates 4 that alleged weakness. If his personal problems are behind him oh, there is no reason to suppose, again all the Wailing here notwithstanding, that solder won't provide leadership and solid capability. And if you watch the Peart last year and you weren't excited, you have no heart just an agenda. So, before the draft, and before free agency, we have solder and Peart at the position of weakness. And as a final note, it is reasonable to expect exponential growth from Gates. He is strong enough to handle a nose one on one, he pulls effectively, he's beyond nasty and the alpha male every line needs. You can reasonably assume the same exponential growth for Andrew. Mr. Saquon Barkley makes every one of them better, just by tying his laces. Ruling out catastrophic injuries, it's very hard to draw a viable worst-case scenario. Not to be redundant, but the only unsettled position is offensive right tackle, and boy, solder and Peart provide exciting alternatives. I have no doubt that some of our Weeping Willy's can make chaff from wheat. They are like the professional mourners I've seen in Greece some 50 years ago and good at their craft because they practice it so relentlessly and diligently. I have to laugh when they say "well, there's three sold solid starters, but not much after that, only Hernandez, Scott Lemieux, Solder and Peart and this before the draft and free agency". That lacks cogency when I write it, somehow they say it and accept it as gospel - need over logic every time.. Nothing is sure in this league, but there is a very high probability that this line will be good, and like Topsy ", " daily growing". Pls. Make allowance for typos, 2 a.m., phone dictation and a relentless autocorrect.

Once again this line is HUMPTY DUMPTY as is, and will suck again this coming season, and if the Oline sucks the team will suck also.

In comment 15162784 fireitup77 said:

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Will give it credit for. Thomas struggled early with his footwork. Once he got that fixed, talking about planting his right foot, he showed that he has what it takes to be a very good LT in this league. He was good in the run game all year. It took Garrett a while to realize it and to start running left. When they did the run game got better. WH played well early. Didn't look like it because Thomas struggled early in pass protection. Until a coach says otherwise I'm convinced covid did him in the second half. Gates was good after the first couple of games. And he got better as the season went along. Zietler is what he is. A solid pro. You might not like what he's getting paid but he is a good to very good guard. RT is the question mark. What is Peart? He was a third round pick. A development guy. He got some time early and looked the part. Catches guys instead of punching. He needs to fix that. There is reasons to optimistic about this group. They need to continue to grow and get better but this pessimistic attitude that everyone sucks is just wrong.

WH played so well he got benched. Good post by the OP. The line still has a ways to go. I would not be opposed to them taking a highly rated OL at 11 if BPA and need mesh. The team has a lot of glaring needs.

In comment 15162770 Since1965 said:

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most of the season. Esp. in obvious passing situations. The line is still not good, and it is the key to this team becoming decent again. We all witnessed how Mahomes struggled with a patched up, ineffective line. That's what Jones deals with on a weekly basis. Yes, the young line showed signs of growth, but they still need to add a beast or two.

The sad thing is that this OL was pretty healthy last year compared to most times. Mahomes had no time and you got the feeling that KC's heart just wasn't into the game.

Bottom line is that if Thomas, Peart, Lemiuex and Gates all step up to the next level and are solid NFL starters in 2021 we are a better team. A much better team. And we'd have veteran backups in Hernandez and likely Solder.

I would NOT be shocked if we drafted an OL in the 2nd round regardless of position. A solid OG would help as Zeitler is serviceable but not the guy he was pre-Giants. Hernandez is adequate. Lemiuex can run block but unless he gets perfect technique he's not likely a good pass protector. I do like Gates upside as he is a worker type.

Until proven otherwise, this OL is bottom third of the league.

I think that is an important a question as the personnel. OL Coach will make or break the line.

anchored by Fleming who was and is a Halapio kind of jag.

But the coaching staff did not sit pat on this - Peart and Lemieux both got very good game time experience, both were pretty raw, and both also showed that there was reason to hope they might develop.

Gates didn't show much in his first two seasons -- but he came on strong last season and I think both Lemieux and Peart showed much more promise than Gates did in his first two years.

Thomas was always going to be a WiP this year -- he came in with a higher ceiling than Wirfs or Wills due to his measurables. The only other of the top 4 tackles in the 2020 draft who came in with more risk was Beckton - who is a monster --

Both Hernandez and Zeitler are solid NFL guards. Zeitler was playing next to a piece of swiss cheese the last two seasons so evaluating him next to Fleming/Peart - or even Mike Remmers the previous year may not be a fair assessment of him. Hernandez did have some issues last year and Lemieux was thrown into the fire because of it. I know some people who have tried to push through Covid after they were pretty sick, and it didn't go well for them. The impact on strength and lungs is pretty devastating and it's quite possible, and believable that Hernandez may have been impacted by that, and that he may have tried to come back too soon. Also playing next to a rookie WiP on the outside could have had an impact as well.

What is interesting is how well Gates did, despite all the above.

I have faith in the range of talent in the oline right now. I don't have much faith in a guy like Fleming -- he is not a good option as starting RT --

The Giants Oline also faced four of the toughest Dlines in football in their first four games - it was like watching the men meet the boys -- Thomas was placed on the left side and all -- and I do mean all --- of his weaknesses were exposed right off the bat.

Then add a hobbled Jones into the mix in the last quarter of the season. Part of Jones' strength has been that he is a running threat -- all of a sudden he had to be a pocket passer -- the threat of the run contained -- Gallman and Lewis are your main RBs -- and they scare no one as feature backs -- there are no WRs on the roster that scare anyone -- the feature tight end has hands of stone --

Look -- you can look at this two ways really -- one way is that everything sucks because the Giants Offense just didn't produce last year -- the other way is -- put a solid RB in the mix and at least one true #1 receiver in the mix -- and an unhobbled Jones, and with a year under their belts -- see if the potential that seemed to be peaking out of that oline starts to manifest itself.

I believe that the latter is a much fairer way to look at this. Show me one team with: three rookie Olinemen playing the majority of the snaps; no real #1 offensive skill players; and a hobbled QB; who can produce well -- just one please.

I like the young linemen they've added....nice mobility and upside for Thomas and Peart and Lemieux....and Gates as Well.

Carrying both Zeitler and Solder,even with restructure, creates a holes in 22,23,24...even assumimg theat the exisiting cast of young players moves forward successfully.

I'd like to see them add Samuael in FA, and DRAFT BPA in the 1st round...that could be an OL...or Micah Parsons...or a WR

and possibly three, depending on whether Hernandez can resurrect himself. Contrary to some silly homerism he is not "solid" and is trending himself right off the roster.

They have shown enough to suggest they can run block but they still cannot support the Passing Offense anywhere near well enough. Particularly when the Giants are in catch up mode and have to pass.

And until they can, this team will remain home for the holidays each winter...

Only problem is I want a WR in round 2 as well. D'oh!
I want more picks!!

That's why he got fired in Dallas (the 2016 Dallas line is long gone although no one has told ESPN or the NFL network) and why he has failed here. Our tight ends almost never chip, let alone max protect. Our backs are routinely victimized by the blitz. Very few teams try to line up their 5 offensive linemen and pass block without any help.

be very important. Look at a coach like Callahan. Everywhere he has been the OL is usually at least solid and normally very good to outstanding.

They should add 2-3 players every year even though they have some good pieces presently.

One big mistake TC's Giants made was allocating too much money on 2nd and third contracts for OL. That was a huge mistake and contributed greatly to the demise post 2012 imo. Keep the pipeline flowing and create competition is the way to competitive consistency.

Right now, the odds of him being a Giant in 2022 doesn’t look so good, which adds to the need to keep drafting for that unit.

In comment 15162804 gidiefor said:

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anchored by Fleming who was and is a Halapio kind of jag. But the coaching staff did not sit pat on this - Peart and Lemieux both got very good game time experience, both were pretty raw, and both also showed that there was reason to hope they might develop. Gates didn't show much in his first two seasons -- but he came on strong last season and I think both Lemieux and Peart showed much more promise than Gates did in his first two years. Thomas was always going to be a WiP this year -- he came in with a higher ceiling than Wirfs or Wills due to his measurables. The only other of the top 4 tackles in the 2020 draft who came in with more risk was Beckton - who is a monster -- Both Hernandez and Zeitler are solid NFL guards. Zeitler was playing next to a piece of swiss cheese the last two seasons so evaluating him next to Fleming/Peart - or even Mike Remmers the previous year may not be a fair assessment of him. Hernandez did have some issues last year and Lemieux was thrown into the fire because of it. I know some people who have tried to push through Covid after they were pretty sick, and it didn't go well for them. The impact on strength and lungs is pretty devastating and it's quite possible, and believable that Hernandez may have been impacted by that, and that he may have tried to come back too soon. Also playing next to a rookie WiP on the outside could have had an impact as well. What is interesting is how well Gates did, despite all the above. I have faith in the range of talent in the oline right now. I don't have much faith in a guy like Fleming -- he is not a good option as starting RT -- The Giants Oline also faced four of the toughest Dlines in football in their first four games - it was like watching the men meet the boys -- Thomas was placed on the left side and all -- and I do mean all --- of his weaknesses were exposed right off the bat. Then add a hobbled Jones into the mix in the last quarter of the season. Part of Jones' strength has been that he is a running threat -- all of a sudden he had to be a pocket passer -- the threat of the run contained -- Gallman and Lewis are your main RBs -- and they scare no one as feature backs -- there are no WRs on the roster that scare anyone -- the feature tight end has hands of stone -- Look -- you can look at this two ways really -- one way is that everything sucks because the Giants Offense just didn't produce last year -- the other way is -- put a solid RB in the mix and at least one true #1 receiver in the mix -- and an unhobbled Jones, and with a year under their belts -- see if the potential that seemed to be peaking out of that oline starts to manifest itself. I believe that the latter is a much fairer way to look at this. Show me one team with: three rookie Olinemen playing the majority of the snaps; no real #1 offensive skill players; and a hobbled QB; who can produce well -- just one please.

Well done..Fairest and most logical post on here, imo

In comment 15162784 fireitup77 said:

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There is reasons to optimistic about this group. They need to continue to grow and get better but this pessimistic attitude that everyone sucks is just wrong.

I don’t think anyone has implied everyone sucks. That’s a weird conclusion.

I think a more accurate conclusion is there is suspicion if all the players played well, why did the Giants have such a hard time running the ball and protecting the quarterback when it mattered.

The Giants came off their best rushing game in Seattle, sat at 5-7, and as it turned out owner their own destiny to reach the playoffs. They then turned out 3 of their worst games of the year.

Why couldn’t they bunker down and Max protect Jones? Why couldn’t they impose some will in the run game?

I think the OL is being hobbled by Jones’ poor pocket instincts and movement. One of the shocking things I saw in last year’s campaign was in the Browns game, where the OL looked like a decent pass blocking unit with McCoy, a player with solid pocket training and instincts, at QB. And this performance was against a good Browns defense.

In comment 15162804 gidiefor said:

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I believe that the latter is a much fairer way to look at this. Show me one team with: three rookie Olinemen playing the majority of the snaps; no real #1 offensive skill players; and a hobbled QB; who can produce well -- just one please.

That's a heck of a rollercoaster to wade through. What I pull from that is:

- The Giants need to add a true no. 1 WR
- Barkley needs to come back the same player
- Thomas needs to be the player he was midseason, not the guy in the beginning and end
- Zeitler needs to play next to a better right tackle, to be a better right guard
- Peart may or may not be that better right tackle
- Hernandez is a solid NFL guard, and it was lingering impacts of Covid, and his poor play in 2019 was a mirage

Dude, I don't feel a lot better!

In comment 15162843 cosmicj said:

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I think the OL is being hobbled by Jones’ poor pocket instincts and movement. One of the shocking things I saw in last year’s campaign was in the Browns game, where the OL looked like a decent pass blocking unit with McCoy, a player with solid pocket training and instincts, at QB. And this performance was against a good Browns defense.

I agree with this. I thought the line played excellent in both the Seattle & Cleveland games.

The type of QB they picked is only going to exceed league average with a pocket to capture sight lines, to step into so feet and leverage consistently allow the mechanics of fast and accurate throws.

I think our guard play is well below what our QB/scheme choices requires and our prime RB (Barkley) requires to radically cut down on useless sideways plays. And I do not think a vertical speed WR solves that problem (more guys/play designs that let more options get off the line and into separation is more important, imo)

I think we fans jump to the conclusion that a spectacular Number 1 WR solves the consistent step into throwing pocket all receivers benefit from nor produces a running game each game that can run even when everyone knows its going to be a run.

Im behind a FA or high draft inside OL player. I dont see game after game above average OL play from any inside OL except Gates.

If it were me, Id prioritize FA and draft for 1-3 more defensive positions ( CB/and 2 Linebackers) a guard and a north south power runner and then a 2 way TE. (wont get all of them and some of them will be marginal improvements).

Assume we dont get anything from Carter or Ximenes and the rest are after all still developing with a likely upside of good depth who execute schemes better than other teams without ever being better than average speed/size/AA/ players. Better and some season surprises but not going to consistently win playoff level football

Id get one mid range FA wr and cluster draft WR in rounds 3-7.

I do not subscribe to the idea that job one is to see what Jones does this year or that the answer is a rookie yet to develop round 1 WR. We have Jones at a low cap number until 2023? What does that tell us? For example, most college WR have to learn to get off the line quickly. Waddle in particular was often schemed to get this for him as he had trouble in college getting off the line ( imo, this is a sign of a high teen/mid 20's slot. combine with size and I dont see a low risk upside for Jones to prove anything. I see Sinorce Moss)

Id get the offense more upfront running and pass protection power and more receiving options. Id even aim to get Barkley 100 receptions and a powerful north south RB.

Meanwhile make the strong units on defense drivers of more short field and turnovers and get the special teams to actual special.

Lets face it, Jones is a long desired referendum on DG...but to Judge he is good enough to not invest/risk on new for more than one year ahead. Just not as urgent as fans want to see.

I want to see more watchable overall Giants play and progress on the team depth of talent.

And im not over rotating on the cap. With attention, they can get the overall pay for performance equation better for this year and next.

In comment 15162908 Bill2 said:

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The type of QB they picked is only going to exceed league average with a pocket to capture sight lines, to step into so feet and leverage consistently allow the mechanics of fast and accurate throws. I think our guard play is well below what our QB/scheme choices requires and our prime RB (Barkley) requires to radically cut down on useless sideways plays. And I do not think a vertical speed WR solves that problem (more guys/play designs that let more options get off the line and into separation is more important, imo) I think we fans jump to the conclusion that a spectacular Number 1 WR solves the consistent step into throwing pocket all receivers benefit from nor produces a running game each game that can run even when everyone knows its going to be a run. Im behind a FA or high draft inside OL player. I dont see game after game above average OL play from any inside OL except Gates. If it were me, Id prioritize FA and draft for 1-3 more defensive positions ( CB/and 2 Linebackers) a guard and a north south power runner and then a 2 way TE. (wont get all of them and some of them will be marginal improvements). Assume we dont get anything from Carter or Ximenes and the rest are after all still developing with a likely upside of good depth who execute schemes better than other teams without ever being better than average speed/size/AA/ players. Better and some season surprises but not going to consistently win playoff level football Id get one mid range FA wr and cluster draft WR in rounds 3-7. I do not subscribe to the idea that job one is to see what Jones does this year or that the answer is a rookie yet to develop round 1 WR. We have Jones at a low cap number until 2023? What does that tell us? For example, most college WR have to learn to get off the line quickly. Waddle in particular was often schemed to get this for him as he had trouble in college getting off the line ( imo, this is a sign of a high teen/mid 20's slot. combine with size and I dont see a low risk upside for Jones to prove anything. I see Sinorce Moss) Id get the offense more upfront running and pass protection power and more receiving options. Id even aim to get Barkley 100 receptions and a powerful north south RB. Meanwhile make the strong units on defense drivers of more short field and turnovers and get the special teams to actual special. Lets face it, Jones is a long desired referendum on DG...but to Judge he is good enough to not invest/risk on new for more than one year ahead. Just not as urgent as fans want to see. I want to see more watchable overall Giants play and progress on the team depth of talent. And im not over rotating on the cap. With attention, they can get the overall pay for performance equation better for this year and next.

Thank you Bill2. You said in one post what i've been trying to say for weeks!

always good to see you posting

than the Bill2 ones. At least from my viewpoint.

I co-ran a profitable subsidiary of a massive retailer experiencing jaw dropping market cap loss last decade -- and every quarter as we ran through the P&L, one by one the business units would list out losses and excuses.

The most laughable were the folks who got their ass kicked in Q3, and then blamed some anomalous outage as the reason they shrank in Q4. No dumbo - you got your ass kicked in Q4 for the reason you got your as kicked in Q3 - your business just sucks.

As chance has it, you might get one component to turn it around dramatically. If you're banking on all 5, you're running low odds.

At some point the reason is the sum of the parts.

I didn't understand the conflation with something Thoreau once said the first time.

I definitely don't understand the following around and monitoring to a conclusion in your head.

So im ignoring your problem and placing it as a reminder of a line from Positively 4th Street.

Last thing the already spiraling site needs is more posters spending their time commenting on other posters

The Giants have something going here. Lots of reps were taken by guys who can play football. Let the young guys train and come back stronger.

They need a Kareem McKenzie to finish the puzzle. I like the idea of being aggressive (Orlando Brown, Penei Sewell, Taylor Moton) if the opportunity presents itself.

In comment 15162790 Ned In Atlanta said:

Quote:

In comment 15162784 fireitup77 said: Quote: Will give it credit for. Thomas struggled early with his footwork. Once he got that fixed, talking about planting his right foot, he showed that he has what it takes to be a very good LT in this league. He was good in the run game all year. It took Garrett a while to realize it and to start running left. When they did the run game got better. WH played well early. Didn't look like it because Thomas struggled early in pass protection. Until a coach says otherwise I'm convinced covid did him in the second half. Gates was good after the first couple of games. And he got better as the season went along. Zietler is what he is. A solid pro. You might not like what he's getting paid but he is a good to very good guard. RT is the question mark. What is Peart? He was a third round pick. A development guy. He got some time early and looked the part. Catches guys instead of punching. He needs to fix that. There is reasons to optimistic about this group. They need to continue to grow and get better but this pessimistic attitude that everyone sucks is just wrong. WH played so well he got benched. Good post by the OP. The line still has a ways to go. I would not be opposed to them taking a highly rated OL at 11 if BPA and need mesh. The team has a lot of glaring needs.

WH had covid and played very little after that. People around here don't realize how bad covid effects some people. Show me where the coaches said he lost his job because of his play. You can't because they never did. Until a coach does then I'm going on that he lasting side effects from covid. And I'm hoping he gets better.

the brick and mortar model flat out doesn't work anymore in some categories/locations.

The rest are just observations of the symptoms that befall a flawed model.

A human system can move one or two variables and flip to a virtuous cycle ( observe neural network movement for proof)

We have 3 pieces. Peart is the wild card. The other guard spot manned by the duo of Hernandez and Lemieux is the big question mark along with Peart.

For a site so starved for ol play it’s just weird how some want to dismiss zietler. He’s not a problem here, at least not yet.

In comment 15162944 djm said:

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We have 3 pieces. Peart is the wild card. The other guard spot manned by the duo of Hernandez and Lemieux is the big question mark along with Peart. For a site so starved for ol play it’s just weird how some want to dismiss Zietler. He’s not a problem here, at least not yet.

If there is hate - it's wrong. But if you
re suggesting he is worth $12m you're out of oyur mind. You're not being weird - you're being silly.

Who are the 3 you say are good now?

Hopefully the spiraling site has also seen an end to garrulous types taking unnecessary shots at certain groups in dawns early light.

The oblique messaging is more immature and bullshit than clever...whatever the fuck inside your head loop you are referring to.

Not worth the time or energy chick. Say what you have to say so I can either explain or apologize. I don't recall taking a shot at you or any particular poster. I don't even connect any opinion or "tribe" you self identify with to or objectionable opinion I ever saw you make.

Could I have been commenting on an opinion or making an observation? Well yes. Its an internet discussion site.

Man up. Maybe post a clear objection or sensitivity so it can be dealt with and we can move forward?

on his overall play, but I tend to agree with the sentiment that he isn't a problem.

Right Tackle is probably the problem DG/Judge are trying to solve for and they don't want to give up Zeitler just yet until that is resolved. Zeitler often had to support poor play by Fleming or the Tight Ends on the right side and the coaches probably want to rely on his experience one more season before they let him go.

What makes this difficult is that there are competing interests for Zeitler's money...like signing up one or both of the DTs.

Good thoughts and balanced outline on Zeitler and the right side of the line.

To me they are trying to:

1) first solve RT
2) improve LG
3) getting either a replacement or better depth at RG in case Zeitler misses 2 games or more of picks up a performance decreasing season injury
4) get another or better inline blocker at TE

But they also may know Zeitler is slipping faster than they thought so they need a RT and a Guard.

I think the Giants/Jones need OL improvement and a power dependable RB more urgently than one expensive or risky investment in a star quality WR. (they do need the whole corps of WR to be better as a group of options).

Obviously, not all those tasks are going to get done in one off season.

They also need 2 more LB and one more upgrade at CB. (if they can keep DT and LW)

Imo, a lot of what we saw last year was the bottom of the roster improved by youth equal to NFL depth but the starting team were not improved enough with enough better than average NFL players.

score enough points and they told the world they need to get Daniel Jones more playmakers just two months ago.

Gettleman is more plain desperate than forward-thinking in his moves and he knows his reputation is tied to Jones. Both of those add up to a receiving target coming on board in free agency. DG isn't the type to "let the draft come to him" so he will sign somebody early in free agency so he doesn't get shut out. Probably add another one in the draft as well.

The defense and Oline may lose out on new investment because of the above and the cost of Leonard Williams.

Wish we knew how an unvarnished Judge/Graham would chose to build.

DG's gambles at a leap forward through a "guy" and then what he can find laying around instead of bowing to reality that he needs 7-8 solid players is getting annoying to watch/live through.

Wish we knew how an unvarnished Judge/Graham would chose to build.

DG's gambles at a leap forward through a "guy" and then what he can find laying around instead of bowing to reality that he needs 7-8 solid players is getting annoying to watch/live through.

He always seems to think we are closer than we are

and underdelivering the OL is what leaves me thinking the recipe leaves us with QB hell (rather than thinking the choice of QB is the primary source of QB hell)

beneficial to the decisions made in the last offseason.

Unfortunately, all that tells me is the non-optimal decision DG would have made became less non-optimal. I am not saying Judge is the holy grail but there is enough evidence to show Gettleman needs to be put out to pasture. Or kept in the building for transition purposes-only, but with a much lesser voice in strategic decisions.

Don't care which one, but lord lets move this along...

Getting to the same observation...Judge is a sane and powerful voice willing to build over time and not worried about his rep in the short run or Jones rep in the short run.

DG wants tombstones memorializing his "deals" as he walks out.

Like Accorsi, he wants to talk about his "Unitas" for the duration of his retirement years.

Me, I cant tell if any QB other than a once in two decades talent is good enough given the NYG holes around him.

There was a Unitas once. So what?

Jolting Joe has left and gone away. Glory Days. All the same stew in DGs head im afraid

Next up should be an announcement on Leonard Williams,

then a bunch of headcount cuts...mostly obvious,

then comes Free Agency to see if they go all-in desperate or more prudent quality building,

and then a hold your breath pick at #11.

Good night, man...

Good night JG

In comment 15163169 Bill2 said:

Quote:

Good thoughts and balanced outline on Zeitler and the right side of the line. To me they are trying to: 1) first solve RT 2) improve LG 3) getting either a replacement or better depth at RG in case Zeitler misses 2 games or more of picks up a performance decreasing season injury 4) get another or better inline blocker at TE But they also may know Zeitler is slipping faster than they thought so they need a RT and a Guard. I think the Giants/Jones need OL improvement and a power dependable RB more urgently than one expensive or risky investment in a star quality WR. (they do need the whole corps of WR to be better as a group of options). Obviously, not all those tasks are going to get done in one off season. They also need 2 more LB and one more upgrade at CB. (if they can keep DT and LW) Imo, a lot of what we saw last year was the bottom of the roster improved by youth equal to NFL depth but the starting team were not improved enough with enough better than average NFL players.

Here's why a WR is preferred over 1st round pick of OL.

In regards to RT; If you are going to draft a RT in 1st round and aren't going to give Peart much of a chance to win the starting position, then what was the point of drafting him?

In terms of LG- you are just going to throw in the towel for both Hernandez and Lemieux?

The WR core is poor. WR is a valued position. You can't be wrong here in drafting a WR when the core is pretty lousy.

And sure you can keep Zeitler - but if you do- say goodbye to LW or DT. For a team not going anywhere it sort of stinks having such a high priced Guard that is slipping and letting go of some young, productive players.

The Giants can safely count on Gates and Thomas being part of the mix over the next 3 years. Zeitler won’t be. No reason to stretch the contract or pay him 12.5M. Use that money as a down payment on *some* solution, any interior lineman upgrade.

In a system where one component is 20% of the sum, making a big leap isn’t a marathon. Increase your odds, don’t really, really hope 4 games in the Fall were a vision.

The Giants have 22.5M wrapped up in Zeitler and Solder next year. Take that in for a moment. A pretty reliable interior guy like Graham Glasgow got 24M guaranteed total last offseason.

Pretty easy decision. Stop the gymnastics trying to justify keeping older players, and go pay a better younger player.

Is the turnstile door in the O-line coaching office; (3 different ones in two years, not good when one of the most important traits of good O-line play is consistency) Put yourself in the players's and tell me your level of play isn't going to suffer !

Hernandez had COVID; reminder - that's something that often KILLS people; his play wasn't up to par, when he came back. You think maybe, that had something to do with it ????

Zeitler is as good as good as he's gonna get; I'd try to figure out a way to get him and his big salary out-of-town.

Solder was good at New England, then came here and laid an egg. I think he may be the biggest surprise; I don't think his head was pointing the right way, with his little boy being as sick as he was. Hopefully that's solved and Nate can earn what he's being paid

In comment 15163285 christian said:

Quote:

T Pretty easy decision. Stop the gymnastics trying to justify keeping older players, and go pay a better younger player.

In rd 2 take an interior lineman, or take a Tackle and convert him to guard.

In rd 3 or 4 take a Tackle that can also play guard.

You and I agree that a reasonable risk/reasonable cost drain if a FA and reasonable investment in a high draftee that can matches the need for much better than average NFL production is a good thing at every position.

And we agree that the NYG do not currently have any WR that matches that definition.

So far, I do not see a cost to likely production FA WR nor an available ( I am assuming the top WR is drafted before slot 11) sure thing Number 1 WR.

I see a WR at 11 that could be easily injured/easily gimmick and easily defeated over a five year contract by size risks and need to get off the line by themselves against NFL corners.

Separately, as for the argument that one doesnt waste a prior pick:

IMO, motivated humans improve capabilities at a 8-15% per year average.

In an industry with an average career of 4 years and a physical breakdown rate of 15-25% per year (notice most rosters turnover at a rate of 25% per year) and a limited number of cap controlled intakes per year, we fans have to balance the desire for attractive human stories with the reality that every year we have to view many of the prior decisions as a sunk cost of we can get better at pay for performance.

Am I rooting for Lemieux to be Chris Snee v.2.0? Of course. Am I rooting for Matt Peart to be a low cost but Kareem McKenzie performer? Of course.

Can our fandom run this kind of meat grinder business?

imo, no. The objects of our hopes upon last years draft day now have a career expectancy of 3 years. So we have to hope but prepare.

Was it good to root for a great end for Eli? Sure.
Was it smart to not have an answer ready for every year past 35? Imo, it was downright malpractice and why we are where we are.

I suspect we really agree on these realities but are expressing hopes some narratives and people exceed the norm

than most. I was blown away by what he was able to do and wasn't shocked in the least WH didn't get his job back.

I said the same thing about Gates last year - you can't keep guys like that off the field. Tenacious, take no prisoners SOB's up front. Was out-physicaling physical NFL players as a rookie, who were bigger & stronger than him on paper.

As expected, Lemieux had some technique flaws in pass pro but overall, he was a big time surprise for us. If he's worked hard on his technique he can be a great player in this league. Bill2 - he doesn't remind of Snee - but he sure reminds of Seubert.

I realize this seems to be a minority opinion but to me, Lemieux > Hernandez even before COVID.

LT - Andrew Thomas
LG - Shane Lemieux
C - Nick Gates
RG - Kevin Zeitler
RT - Nate Solder

*Giants re-structure both Zeitler & Solder to free up cap space. Instead of getting rid of these guys - keep them while creating more immediate cap space. Zeitler/Solder veteran right side. Communication & recognition should not be a problem. Solder has played RT before.

*If Peart comes on like gang-busters and can't be denied, Solder is the primary swing OT. OK paying him $$$ to do that for 1 year.

*Hernandez given every opportunity to win either G spot.

--------

1 thing I don't want is the rotation on the OL again. Prefer settling on a definitive starting 5 and w/max reps.

Paced by Thomas & Gates, this is an OL that should be very effective week 1. I am saying this for the first time in what feels like 10 years. Daniel Jones may have a Pro Bowl LT and Pro Bowl C - boy does that make a QB's job easier. Get the #1 WR and he may shock the world.

fans on BBI will go to really silly lengths to put up excuses for all-things Giants.

Unless of course, Hernandez was the first case of the virus and he's been dealing with it since Sept 2019 when his play took a turn down.

How many times does this need to posted?

In comment 15163398 Jimmy Googs said:

Quote:

fans on BBI will go to really silly lengths to put up excuses for all-things Giants. Unless of course, Hernandez was the first case of the virus and he's been dealing with it since Sept 2019 when his play took a turn down. How many times does this need to posted?

Who was will playing next to in 2019? You think that might have something to do with it?

Please show me a quote from a coach on the giants saying he got benched because of his play.

I'll wait........

Reading some of these comments, it’s as if the Giants haven’t had a really bad line, including down the stretch last year. And that all the players played well and will be great. And the reason the line sucked, especially at the end of the season was a mystery.

I think the Giants have two clear players to be optimistic about — Thomas, who’s ultra talented, and Gates who had a fine season at center.

- Solder is old, 3 seasons removed from component football, a decade removed from playing right tackle, and prohibitively expensive
- Zeitler is generously on the back 3rd of his career, had some terrible stretches of play last year, and prohibitively expensive
- Hernandez was really disappointing in 2019, and a non-factor last year
- Lemieux is a consistent liability in pass protection, and is the reason he was a late round pick

This reminds a little of the arguments about how fine the skill players would be last year, because everything was destined to fall into place.

My question is, would it be remotely surprising if it doesn’t?

In comment 15163445 fireitup77 said:

Quote:

In comment 15163398 Jimmy Googs said: Quote: fans on BBI will go to really silly lengths to put up excuses for all-things Giants. Unless of course, Hernandez was the first case of the virus and he's been dealing with it since Sept 2019 when his play took a turn down. How many times does this need to posted? Who was will playing next to in 2019? You think that might have something to do with it? Please show me a quote from a coach on the giants saying he got benched because of his play. I'll wait........

Solder. He played next to him 2018 as well. What are you implying that Solder (and Thomas) made Hernandez play worse after a good rookie year?

And not sure I get the need for a quote about benching. As bad as the starting O-line has been, do you really think that turning to the even-weaker Giant reserves on the bench in 2019 and before Covid affected him in 2020 was an answer?

Hope you didn't wait long...

In comment 15163453 christian said:

Quote:

Reading some of these comments, it’s as if the Giants haven’t had a really bad line, including down the stretch last year. And that all the players played well and will be great. And the reason the line sucked, especially at the end of the season was a mystery. I think the Giants have two clear players to be optimistic about — Thomas, who’s ultra talented, and Gates who had a fine season at center. - Solder is old, 3 seasons removed from component football, a decade removed from playing right tackle, and prohibitively expensive - Zeitler is generously on the back 3rd of his career, had some terrible stretches of play last year, and prohibitively expensive - Hernandez was really disappointing in 2019, and a non-factor last year - Lemieux is a consistent liability in pass protection, and is the reason he was a late round pick This reminds a little of the arguments about how fine the skill players would be last year, because everything was destined to fall into place. My question is, would it be remotely surprising if it doesn’t?

Well stated. I also believe in Peart as he flashed well in spots.
If we are honest, and young guys develop, we can likely rely on Thomas, Gates to be solid. We can be hopeful that Peart develops and Lemiuex develops where while he is a liability in pass protection he is "adequate enough" to work with. I would not be shocked if Lemiuex is our future OC.

I guess a lot will be revealed in the draft and with any cuts.

I’d like to up to the odds the Giants have a solid unit over the next 3 years.

This should be the beginning of a competitive window — Jones years 3-5 and Barkley years 4-6. This the sweet spot.

My dream outcome this offseason — sign Joe Thuney and Kelvin Beachum. Redistribute the considerable money Solder and Zeitler make into a top pedigree guard like Thuney. Replace Fleming with a swing tackle who can play either side at a component level.

Thomas, Lemieux(Hernandez), Gates, Thuney, Beachum (Peart)

Remember Zeigler came in a trade and the contract came with him. The Giants negotiated it to be sure, but even if the read re-negotiation was based on his Cleveland contract.
The Giants got Cleveland to assume aridiculous contract tied to a non-the productive player. At the time of the trade 1 general manager remarked that we were lucky to be able to give Vernon away for nothing. The current rumor has Cleveland cutting Vernon so they can get some breathing room.
We had to take contract back.
And, whether ill advised or not, we were still trying to win with Eli. So when comments are floated about Ziegler's salary I tend to mitigate them based on those circumstances.

Baby bill has plenty of cap room. If this most astute of football people is letting someone go oh, there's a darn good reason. What was the name of the third-down Specialists running back we "stole" from them. The Giants can't afford any more steals like that guy and Solder.

In comment 15163594 Grizz99 said:

Quote:

Remember Zeigler came in a trade and the contract came with him. The Giants negotiated it to be sure, but even if the read re-negotiation was based on his Cleveland contract. The Giants got Cleveland to assume aridiculous contract tied to a non-the productive player. At the time of the trade 1 general manager remarked that we were lucky to be able to give Vernon away for nothing. The current rumor has Cleveland cutting Vernon so they can get some breathing room. We had to take contract back. And, whether ill advised or not, we were still trying to win with Eli. So when comments are floated about Ziegler's salary I tend to mitigate them based on those circumstances.

What bearing does that have on the future of the Giants?

I just want to start off with – overall I agree with you and your outlook. I’m bas though in that I despise DG. I think he’s an incompetent ass but I think Jude may wind up being the one who saved him from himself. And I felt this past year Judge was superior to the other coaches in the division – at least for last year. With that said – I want the Giants to win and I don’t want to be so extremely negative.

But if you are saying is right that there is no clear number 1 WR – then yeah no way I’d take a FA or use it on the number 11 pick. I don’t know if there is or not but what I find interesting is the subject you broach upon is wanting a power back. Part of the reason why I want a WR is that I want a playmaker because while I’m hopeful for Barkley – I don’t trust him. And if your team doesn’t have legit very good weapon, football is near unwatchable and your team is just going to be a loser. SO for secondary reasons if Barkley doesn’t work out – I’m hopeful a WR can take his place in terms of being a terrif threat. Otherwise Jones is just going to get killed again for another year unless the OL is terrific. Maybe someday in the future they can be real real good but they aren’t right now.

As a result, as much as a despise DG – I’m hopeful he and Judge have made and can make the right choices. OS rather than just be negative I’m hopeful of the following and willing to see what happens:

Hopeful of Jones.
Hopeful of Barkley performing well.

Assuming G-men have 2 good OL – hopeful that RT Peart can perform well as well as LG’s Hernandez and Lemieux.

Hopeful that if they keep Zeitler and/or Solder, G-men can still have respectable defense due to the two OL’s large salary without near as much production as LW and DT.

Hopeful that if Barkley doesn’t perform well that the G-men will have a stud number 1 type of WR.

If most of these hopeful scenarios turn negative – I hope there would be some common sense to fire Resume Dave. It seems your view is that GMEN are going to suck yet again – and the way Resume Dave has led us down a particular path- that he “more-than-likely” should be canned by season’s end, correct?

For me—I’m giving him a chance to see what the above can do. If G-men draft OL high and/or pick up an expensive FA along with draft high OL—and the combo of Barkley/Jones don’t win enough in an outright crummy division – then Resume Dave needs to be canned. I don’t expect Giants to be good but neither should they be awful if over-the-years and now the picks and FA’s workout (because they aren’t the deliberate tanking type).

Sorry'

In comment 15163454 Jimmy Googs said:

Quote:

In comment 15163445 fireitup77 said: Quote: In comment 15163398 Jimmy Googs said: Quote: fans on BBI will go to really silly lengths to put up excuses for all-things Giants. Unless of course, Hernandez was the first case of the virus and he's been dealing with it since Sept 2019 when his play took a turn down. How many times does this need to posted? Who was will playing next to in 2019? You think that might have something to do with it? Please show me a quote from a coach on the giants saying he got benched because of his play. I'll wait........ Solder. He played next to him 2018 as well. What are you implying that Solder (and Thomas) made Hernandez play worse after a good rookie year? And not sure I get the need for a quote about benching. As bad as the starting O-line has been, do you really think that turning to the even-weaker Giant reserves on the bench in 2019 and before Covid affected him in 2020 was an answer? Hope you didn't wait long...

I notice you left out Pio in your answer. And yes I think playing between those two might effect his play being olineman rely on each other so much.

And if you think his play before covid was bad you don't know what your watching. He was solid early in the year.

Notice he played every snap before covid. There were no reports of SL getting reps in practice. He gets covid and SL gets his head handed to him, especially in pass protection. WH comes back and there is a rotation. If SL was better why rotate? You already know what WH is.

No comment from the coaches that he lost his job because of his play.

Now a legal question for the lawyers here. Let's say WH was suffering from side effects from covid. Are the giants allowed to talk about it? It's an illness not an injury. Notice when guys get sick the never tell what the illness is. So let's say WH was healthy enough to dress and play some but not the entire game due to covid side effects, are the giants allowed to say so?

you're the one coming up with all the excuses for Will Hernandez, not me. List them all out now so we can keep them straight as it seems to be growing every time you make a post.

And if you think WH was playing solid in 2020, you don't need a lawyer, you need optometrist...

You and I are clearly long term Giants fans.

It's an odd year without the usual information to draft well, with a weird cap situation and most of all the unknown of slot 11 in a unclear year...all leads to a lot of speculation.

Doesn't help that the Giants have so many needs they could get better by going in many different directions. Yet every choice counts a lot this year.

Tired, tired and tired of this rebuild.

Take care

In comment 15163628 Jimmy Googs said:

Quote:

you're the one coming up with all the excuses for Will Hernandez, not me. List them all out now so we can keep them straight as it seems to be growing every time you make a post. And if you think WH was playing solid in 2020, you don't need a lawyer, you need optometrist...

Good division 3 line.

People want to cherry pick last season only want to use the the last, I wasn't even sold on that. I am encourage by Gates. That is the best you get. From there it goes downhill fast. I am super concerned about Thomas still. He was supposed to be the most pro ready. He was NOT. Zeitler is overpaid, Solder's heart is not in it. Flemming is a back up. Hernandez and Lemieux don't make a good OL if you combine them on cellular level. So yeah...quite concerned.

As a mattered of fact I am think many of you vastly overestimate the team and Judge based on the last 8 games. He need home runs in the draft and FA this year. Can't miss. I am tired of double digit loss seasons. Show me, don't tell me. I don't give a FLYING FUCK what ANY MOTHERFUCKER says in front of camera, from the owner to the water fucking boy.

Show me on the DAMN FIELD. That is where I am as a fan. Not my fault. 15-33. Own your score. That is who and what this team is until they do something different. Words are useless.

I am still skeptical:

1) A lot of last year was against poor teams

2) I think coaching got the talent to their NFL floor whereas previous coaching staffs got the "talent" below their floor

3) A rookie 5th rounder rarely becomes an above average NFL guard

4) Ditto a 3rd round OT developmental prospect becoming an above average NFL OT. We have had tons of good observable long arms, height/weight measurement guys...we have not had many become NFL average much less above average NFL talents.

5) A second round pick from the recommendations of the prior regime of scouts and coaches who played on a poorly coached disastrously losing program is an iffy probability for an above average NFL OG if his play still shows holes. Hernandez looked good as a rookie compared only to our collection of terrible OL.

6) Gates has done well considering he was a UDFA depth signing as assessed by the entire OL hungry NFL.

It must be noted that DG was given an OL with Hart/Flowers/Richburg and Pugh...all leaving or should have. Among the things he could have done better...imo...the OL was always going to take a few years and have overpays and mistakes. So the state of the OL with at least much better depth and some players who turned in performances than give credence to their potential upsides is actually an OL where some but far from enough support the potential of average or above average NFL players.

That's just my opinion and of all the positional units I am least able of analyzing DB and OL play. I just cant observe technique fast enough...only outcomes or pre-selected youtube highlights

In comment 15164045 Thegratefulhead said:

Quote:

People want to cherry pick last season only want to use the the last, I wasn't even sold on that. I am encourage by Gates. That is the best you get. From there it goes downhill fast. I am super concerned about Thomas still. He was supposed to be the most pro ready. He was NOT. Zeitler is overpaid, Solder's heart is not in it. Flemming is a back up. Hernandez and Lemieux don't make a good OL if you combine them on cellular level. So yeah...quite concerned. As a mattered of fact I am think many of you vastly overestimate the team and Judge based on the last 8 games. He need home runs in the draft and FA this year. Can't miss. I am tired of double digit loss seasons. Show me, don't tell me. I don't give a FLYING FUCK what ANY MOTHERFUCKER says in front of camera, from the owner to the water fucking boy. Show me on the DAMN FIELD. That is where I am as a fan. Not my fault. 15-33. Own your score. That is who and what this team is until they do something different. Words are useless.

Like I keep saying this line as it is now is Humpty Dumpty, and can’t be fixed. Not much talent, and just plain sucks. The jury is still out big time on Thomas, and SL, and WH are nothing but back ups. Peart is another still on trial, and Gates looks good, because everyone else is so bad. No changes in talent will be no changes in performance.

In comment 15164135 Bill2 said:

Quote:

I am still skeptical: 1) A lot of last year was against poor teams 2) I think coaching got the talent to their NFL floor whereas previous coaching staffs got the "talent" below their floor 3) A rookie 5th rounder rarely becomes an above average NFL guard 4) Ditto a 3rd round OT developmental prospect becoming an above average NFL OT. We have had tons of good observable long arms, height/weight measurement guys...we have not had many become NFL average much less above average NFL talents. 5) A second round pick from the recommendations of the prior regime of scouts and coaches who played on a poorly coached disastrously losing program is an iffy probability for an above average NFL OG if his play still shows holes. Hernandez looked good as a rookie compared only to our collection of terrible OL. 6) Gates has done well considering he was a UDFA depth signing as assessed by the entire OL hungry NFL. It must be noted that DG was given an OL with Hart/Flowers/Richburg and Pugh...all leaving or should have. Among the things he could have done better...imo...the OL was always going to take a few years and have overpays and mistakes. So the state of the OL with at least much better depth and some players who turned in performances than give credence to their potential upsides is actually an OL where some but far from enough support the potential of average or above average NFL players. That's just my opinion and of all the positional units I am least able of analyzing DB and OL play. I just cant observe technique fast enough...only outcomes or pre-selected youtube highlights

My biggest issue with how the OL was attempted to be rebuilt was that DG tried to use Free Agency to do it.

As you said, in an OL hungry league, it has gotten really hard to find good OL in Free Agency. It's not even remotely like it was 10 or 15 years ago. If the teams have good ones that still have mileage, they don't let them hit the open market.

It's my opinion that much more draft capital should have been invested in the OL in 2018, and 2019. Look at the investment last year, and while the line is nowhere near good enough, we are seeing the first glimmers of hope. That kind of investment should have been happening in both 2018 and 2019.

That would have also saved us from these ridiculous Solder and Zeitler contract as albatrosses weighing us down.

The Giants still need to have a similar investment this year, maybe not 1, 3, and 5 (although I would not object), but at least a 2 and a 4. I doubt they do it though.

In comment 15163343 Bill2 said:

Quote:

So far, I do not see a cost to likely production FA WR nor an available ( I am assuming the top WR is drafted before slot 11) sure thing Number 1 WR. I see a WR at 11 that could be easily injured/easily gimmick and easily defeated over a five year contract by size risks and need to get off the line by themselves against NFL corners. Separately, as for the argument that one doesnt waste a prior pick: IMO, motivated humans improve capabilities at a 8-15% per year average.

I'm very concerned about this specifically myself. I can feel the desire from the Giants brass to get a #1 WR but based on how this offseason is shaping up it looks like what will be available to meet this desire won't be worth what it costs.

IMO Jones needs a playmaking receiver on the outside and while I like Waddle a lot, I don't really like his fit with the Giants and Jones. Chase or Smith would be better fits IMO but I don't see them being there at 11 and even if they are there and more to the point of this thread it would be very risky to not do everything possible to sure up the OL AND make a large investment in a WR.

I think we can be reasonably confident we have an above average LT and C. If we can find a way to get a good LG and RT we could be a playoff team or one great player at those positions and some overall development.

If we do this I think we can get away with a 2nd or 3rd round WR or smart FA WR signing. (Don't think Robinson, Davis, Golladay, or Godwin would be that)

I'm as big of an advocate of spreading out resources as anyone I just feel like I'd give the Giants more credit for missing in other areas of we could say for once "hey we might have a little too much talent on the OL" as opposed to the opposite situation we've had for over 10 years now.

That is all to say, I can see Jones taking a big step forward this year without a real #1. (In this scenario they'd have to have a creative rushing attack with lots of movement and misdirection with Jones and Barkley)

I can't see Jones taking that step forward if they aren't much better next year than were this year even with a playmaker at WR.

100%, very well said. The Giants still need to improve the OL. With an improved OL, the Giants can win going into the season with the same WR group.

On the flip side, if the OL doesn’t improve, it won’t matter what WR is brought in.

The Giants have been reactive to team needs since 2013. It would be very foolish to think the OL is “set” based on last year. The roster still needs an influx of talent into the infrastructure. The foundation isn’t set yet, but another offseason working on it can really put this franchise in a good position. Not to mention, this would help Saquon.

Agree NGD

.

In comment 15164492 .McL. said:

Quote:

.

Thanks, some time away from BBI was nice. (Even though I still would read it most days lol)

I decided to really commit to my continuing education for the rest of the pandemic in December and jumped into deep learning. I was particularly interested in LSTMs and GRUs. It's been years since I've really done any coding outside of some database and/or feature engineering code. I'm glad I did too, it's been super interesting to come back to after so many years

because the players around him aren't good. Thomas was fine. Ups and down. Zeitler isn't a 12 million dollar player, but you can't just get rid of him. Peart had a good game or two but they need a RT.

They can't afford to get much better on offense because of the money they're paying Solder and Zeitler.

^ I agree, Thomas and Gates are the foundation of the line.

A few issues with Zeitler -- he has one expensive year on his deal, he's older, and he's not been consistent. One of those you can deal with. All three, I don't think you can.

Cutting Zeitler and Solder saves 36.5M over the next two years.

Andrus Peat was the most expensive interior lineman signed last year -- he has 34M total guarantees in his contract. His cap hit in the first 3 years of his deal isn't even 30M.

Point being, the Giants can go get a high paid, younger interior lineman and swing tackle with the savings of cutting Zeitler and Solder.

a poster wondered about the "the Zeitler hate"

I want to make it clear, there is no Zeitler hate. He is an ok guard on the downside of his career. The ONLY issue with Zeitler is his 12.5M salary and bonuses that he is due this year.

In a normal cap year, he is no longer worth that kind of money. In this reduced cap year his price is way out of whack. There is about to be a glut of veterans like him available on the market. We are seeing it already with players like Van Noy, and Rudolph cut. Heck JJ Watt had to sign a 2 year contract worth less than 16M per year. That should put this years pay scale in better light. It is a buyers market right now. Prices have to go down... In addition, the Giants should be negotiating hard with LW. I doubt there are teams out there willing to pay him 18+M per.