Offensive Line - Performance and Expectations

I like Gates & Thomas. The rest of the OL...up in the air.

.. Thomas, Gates and Zeitler. I haven't been super happy with Hernandez or Lemieux. Lemieux is easy to root for but not a good pass protector. And we need someone to step up at RT.

2 others, wishful thinking....that must be stabilized this off-season.

Another who must lower his cap.

Anyone using words like "superb" etc are off their rocker.

We're hopeful they have the start of something good with their Tackles.

In comment 15162706 giantstock said:

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Anyone using words like "superb" etc are off their rocker. We're hopeful they have the start of something good with their Tackles.

Two words for the Oline. Humpty Dumpty.

That calims that "the OL has been fixed".

My question is that fixed as in a chair or fixed as in a cat?

Mostly its been the cat...

While the line is improved, I would hardly call it fixed (as in a chair), let alone use any superlatives like "superb".

There are still 3 positions in flux in my mind. LG, RG, and RT. Peart of Lemieux may step up and become a solid starter but that is by no means assured. Look what has happened with Hernandez. Everybody penciled him in as a 10 year starter after his rookie year. I'm not even sure what we have with Thomas yet. Improvement in players is not guaranteed. The line needs significantly more investment before it will be "fixed" as in a chair.

most of the season. Esp. in obvious passing situations. The line is still not good, and it is the key to this team becoming decent again. We all witnessed how Mahomes struggled with a patched up, ineffective line. That's what Jones deals with on a weekly basis. Yes, the young line showed signs of growth, but they still need to add a beast or two.

Will give it credit for.

Thomas struggled early with his footwork. Once he got that fixed, talking about planting his right foot, he showed that he has what it takes to be a very good LT in this league. He was good in the run game all year. It took Garrett a while to realize it and to start running left. When they did the run game got better.

WH played well early. Didn't look like it because Thomas struggled early in pass protection. Until a coach says otherwise I'm convinced covid did him in the second half.

Gates was good after the first couple of games. And he got better as the season went along.

Zietler is what he is. A solid pro. You might not like what he's getting paid but he is a good to very good guard.

RT is the question mark. What is Peart? He was a third round pick. A development guy. He got some time early and looked the part. Catches guys instead of punching. He needs to fix that.

There is reasons to optimistic about this group. They need to continue to grow and get better but this pessimistic attitude that everyone sucks is just wrong.

You can't discuss the giant line without noting The Perfect Storm they faced. A rookie forced into starting at the critical left tackle position. The Lac of the preseason much more debilitating than a team that had continuity. A center - and you could easily call him the nerve center since he calls the blocking assignments - who wasn't just new but had never played the position before .
16 live scrimmages and you send out a bunch of players who don't know each other's names.
As if that wasn't bad enough, the next thing is 2 take away the threat that the entire offense was built around. Then you insert a journeyman running back.
That's the context they should be used to judge their performance and their potential. It's all a crapshoot, but as of this writing the line should have 3 very good starters. For all the hollering and handkerchief waving here Hernandez should be a solid, and by this time experienced, starter.
So I believe they are set at 4 positions and they will have a year of continuity and good coaching. That leaves one position unsettled and I'd argue that very few teams don't have at least one position that's a question mark.
We go into the year with interested candidates 4 that alleged weakness. If his personal problems are behind him oh, there is no reason to suppose, again all the Wailing here notwithstanding, that solder won't provide leadership and solid capability. And if you watch the Peart last year and you weren't excited, you have no heart just an agenda. So, before the draft, and before free agency, we have solder and Peart at the position of weakness.
And as a final note, it is reasonable to expect exponential growth from Gates. He is strong enough to handle a nose one on one, he pulls effectively, he's beyond nasty and the alpha male every line needs.
You can reasonably assume the same exponential growth for Andrew.
Mr. Saquon Barkley makes every one of them better, just by tying his laces.
Ruling out catastrophic injuries, it's very hard to draw a viable worst-case scenario. Not to be redundant, but the only unsettled position is offensive right tackle, and boy, solder and Peart provide exciting alternatives.

I have no doubt that some of our Weeping Willy's can make chaff from wheat. They are like the professional mourners I've seen in Greece some 50 years ago and good at their craft because they practice it so relentlessly and diligently. I have to laugh when they say "well, there's three sold solid starters, but not much after that, only Hernandez, Scott Lemieux, Solder and Peart and this before the draft and free agency".
That lacks cogency when I write it, somehow they say it and accept it as gospel - need over logic every time..
Nothing is sure in this league, but there is a very high probability that this line will be good, and like Topsy ", " daily growing".
Pls. Make allowance for typos, 2 a.m., phone dictation and a relentless autocorrect.

In comment 15162787 Grizz99 said:

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You can't discuss the giant line without noting The Perfect Storm they faced. A rookie forced into starting at the critical left tackle position. The Lac of the preseason much more debilitating than a team that had continuity. A center - and you could easily call him the nerve center since he calls the blocking assignments - who wasn't just new but had never played the position before . 16 live scrimmages and you send out a bunch of players who don't know each other's names. As if that wasn't bad enough, the next thing is 2 take away the threat that the entire offense was built around. Then you insert a journeyman running back. That's the context they should be used to judge their performance and their potential. It's all a crapshoot, but as of this writing the line should have 3 very good starters. For all the hollering and handkerchief waving here Hernandez should be a solid, and by this time experienced, starter. So I believe they are set at 4 positions and they will have a year of continuity and good coaching. That leaves one position unsettled and I'd argue that very few teams don't have at least one position that's a question mark. We go into the year with interested candidates 4 that alleged weakness. If his personal problems are behind him oh, there is no reason to suppose, again all the Wailing here notwithstanding, that solder won't provide leadership and solid capability. And if you watch the Peart last year and you weren't excited, you have no heart just an agenda. So, before the draft, and before free agency, we have solder and Peart at the position of weakness. And as a final note, it is reasonable to expect exponential growth from Gates. He is strong enough to handle a nose one on one, he pulls effectively, he's beyond nasty and the alpha male every line needs. You can reasonably assume the same exponential growth for Andrew. Mr. Saquon Barkley makes every one of them better, just by tying his laces. Ruling out catastrophic injuries, it's very hard to draw a viable worst-case scenario. Not to be redundant, but the only unsettled position is offensive right tackle, and boy, solder and Peart provide exciting alternatives. I have no doubt that some of our Weeping Willy's can make chaff from wheat. They are like the professional mourners I've seen in Greece some 50 years ago and good at their craft because they practice it so relentlessly and diligently. I have to laugh when they say "well, there's three sold solid starters, but not much after that, only Hernandez, Scott Lemieux, Solder and Peart and this before the draft and free agency". That lacks cogency when I write it, somehow they say it and accept it as gospel - need over logic every time.. Nothing is sure in this league, but there is a very high probability that this line will be good, and like Topsy ", " daily growing". Pls. Make allowance for typos, 2 a.m., phone dictation and a relentless autocorrect.

Once again this line is HUMPTY DUMPTY as is, and will suck again this coming season, and if the Oline sucks the team will suck also.

In comment 15162784 fireitup77 said:

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Will give it credit for. Thomas struggled early with his footwork. Once he got that fixed, talking about planting his right foot, he showed that he has what it takes to be a very good LT in this league. He was good in the run game all year. It took Garrett a while to realize it and to start running left. When they did the run game got better. WH played well early. Didn't look like it because Thomas struggled early in pass protection. Until a coach says otherwise I'm convinced covid did him in the second half. Gates was good after the first couple of games. And he got better as the season went along. Zietler is what he is. A solid pro. You might not like what he's getting paid but he is a good to very good guard. RT is the question mark. What is Peart? He was a third round pick. A development guy. He got some time early and looked the part. Catches guys instead of punching. He needs to fix that. There is reasons to optimistic about this group. They need to continue to grow and get better but this pessimistic attitude that everyone sucks is just wrong.

WH played so well he got benched. Good post by the OP. The line still has a ways to go. I would not be opposed to them taking a highly rated OL at 11 if BPA and need mesh. The team has a lot of glaring needs.

In comment 15162770 Since1965 said:

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most of the season. Esp. in obvious passing situations. The line is still not good, and it is the key to this team becoming decent again. We all witnessed how Mahomes struggled with a patched up, ineffective line. That's what Jones deals with on a weekly basis. Yes, the young line showed signs of growth, but they still need to add a beast or two.

The sad thing is that this OL was pretty healthy last year compared to most times. Mahomes had no time and you got the feeling that KC's heart just wasn't into the game.

Bottom line is that if Thomas, Peart, Lemiuex and Gates all step up to the next level and are solid NFL starters in 2021 we are a better team. A much better team. And we'd have veteran backups in Hernandez and likely Solder.

I would NOT be shocked if we drafted an OL in the 2nd round regardless of position. A solid OG would help as Zeitler is serviceable but not the guy he was pre-Giants. Hernandez is adequate. Lemiuex can run block but unless he gets perfect technique he's not likely a good pass protector. I do like Gates upside as he is a worker type.

Until proven otherwise, this OL is bottom third of the league.

I think that is an important a question as the personnel. OL Coach will make or break the line.

anchored by Fleming who was and is a Halapio kind of jag.

But the coaching staff did not sit pat on this - Peart and Lemieux both got very good game time experience, both were pretty raw, and both also showed that there was reason to hope they might develop.

Gates didn't show much in his first two seasons -- but he came on strong last season and I think both Lemieux and Peart showed much more promise than Gates did in his first two years.

Thomas was always going to be a WiP this year -- he came in with a higher ceiling than Wirfs or Wills due to his measurables. The only other of the top 4 tackles in the 2020 draft who came in with more risk was Beckton - who is a monster --

Both Hernandez and Zeitler are solid NFL guards. Zeitler was playing next to a piece of swiss cheese the last two seasons so evaluating him next to Fleming/Peart - or even Mike Remmers the previous year may not be a fair assessment of him. Hernandez did have some issues last year and Lemieux was thrown into the fire because of it. I know some people who have tried to push through Covid after they were pretty sick, and it didn't go well for them. The impact on strength and lungs is pretty devastating and it's quite possible, and believable that Hernandez may have been impacted by that, and that he may have tried to come back too soon. Also playing next to a rookie WiP on the outside could have had an impact as well.

What is interesting is how well Gates did, despite all the above.

I have faith in the range of talent in the oline right now. I don't have much faith in a guy like Fleming -- he is not a good option as starting RT --

The Giants Oline also faced four of the toughest Dlines in football in their first four games - it was like watching the men meet the boys -- Thomas was placed on the left side and all -- and I do mean all --- of his weaknesses were exposed right off the bat.

Then add a hobbled Jones into the mix in the last quarter of the season. Part of Jones' strength has been that he is a running threat -- all of a sudden he had to be a pocket passer -- the threat of the run contained -- Gallman and Lewis are your main RBs -- and they scare no one as feature backs -- there are no WRs on the roster that scare anyone -- the feature tight end has hands of stone --

Look -- you can look at this two ways really -- one way is that everything sucks because the Giants Offense just didn't produce last year -- the other way is -- put a solid RB in the mix and at least one true #1 receiver in the mix -- and an unhobbled Jones, and with a year under their belts -- see if the potential that seemed to be peaking out of that oline starts to manifest itself.

I believe that the latter is a much fairer way to look at this. Show me one team with: three rookie Olinemen playing the majority of the snaps; no real #1 offensive skill players; and a hobbled QB; who can produce well -- just one please.

I like the young linemen they've added....nice mobility and upside for Thomas and Peart and Lemieux....and Gates as Well.

Carrying both Zeitler and Solder,even with restructure, creates a holes in 22,23,24...even assumimg theat the exisiting cast of young players moves forward successfully.

I'd like to see them add Samuael in FA, and DRAFT BPA in the 1st round...that could be an OL...or Micah Parsons...or a WR

and possibly three, depending on whether Hernandez can resurrect himself. Contrary to some silly homerism he is not "solid" and is trending himself right off the roster.

They have shown enough to suggest they can run block but they still cannot support the Passing Offense anywhere near well enough. Particularly when the Giants are in catch up mode and have to pass.

And until they can, this team will remain home for the holidays each winter...

Only problem is I want a WR in round 2 as well. D'oh!
I want more picks!!

That's why he got fired in Dallas (the 2016 Dallas line is long gone although no one has told ESPN or the NFL network) and why he has failed here. Our tight ends almost never chip, let alone max protect. Our backs are routinely victimized by the blitz. Very few teams try to line up their 5 offensive linemen and pass block without any help.

be very important. Look at a coach like Callahan. Everywhere he has been the OL is usually at least solid and normally very good to outstanding.

They should add 2-3 players every year even though they have some good pieces presently.

One big mistake TC's Giants made was allocating too much money on 2nd and third contracts for OL. That was a huge mistake and contributed greatly to the demise post 2012 imo. Keep the pipeline flowing and create competition is the way to competitive consistency.

Right now, the odds of him being a Giant in 2022 doesn’t look so good, which adds to the need to keep drafting for that unit.

In comment 15162804 gidiefor said:

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anchored by Fleming who was and is a Halapio kind of jag. But the coaching staff did not sit pat on this - Peart and Lemieux both got very good game time experience, both were pretty raw, and both also showed that there was reason to hope they might develop. Gates didn't show much in his first two seasons -- but he came on strong last season and I think both Lemieux and Peart showed much more promise than Gates did in his first two years. Thomas was always going to be a WiP this year -- he came in with a higher ceiling than Wirfs or Wills due to his measurables. The only other of the top 4 tackles in the 2020 draft who came in with more risk was Beckton - who is a monster -- Both Hernandez and Zeitler are solid NFL guards. Zeitler was playing next to a piece of swiss cheese the last two seasons so evaluating him next to Fleming/Peart - or even Mike Remmers the previous year may not be a fair assessment of him. Hernandez did have some issues last year and Lemieux was thrown into the fire because of it. I know some people who have tried to push through Covid after they were pretty sick, and it didn't go well for them. The impact on strength and lungs is pretty devastating and it's quite possible, and believable that Hernandez may have been impacted by that, and that he may have tried to come back too soon. Also playing next to a rookie WiP on the outside could have had an impact as well. What is interesting is how well Gates did, despite all the above. I have faith in the range of talent in the oline right now. I don't have much faith in a guy like Fleming -- he is not a good option as starting RT -- The Giants Oline also faced four of the toughest Dlines in football in their first four games - it was like watching the men meet the boys -- Thomas was placed on the left side and all -- and I do mean all --- of his weaknesses were exposed right off the bat. Then add a hobbled Jones into the mix in the last quarter of the season. Part of Jones' strength has been that he is a running threat -- all of a sudden he had to be a pocket passer -- the threat of the run contained -- Gallman and Lewis are your main RBs -- and they scare no one as feature backs -- there are no WRs on the roster that scare anyone -- the feature tight end has hands of stone -- Look -- you can look at this two ways really -- one way is that everything sucks because the Giants Offense just didn't produce last year -- the other way is -- put a solid RB in the mix and at least one true #1 receiver in the mix -- and an unhobbled Jones, and with a year under their belts -- see if the potential that seemed to be peaking out of that oline starts to manifest itself. I believe that the latter is a much fairer way to look at this. Show me one team with: three rookie Olinemen playing the majority of the snaps; no real #1 offensive skill players; and a hobbled QB; who can produce well -- just one please.

Well done..Fairest and most logical post on here, imo

In comment 15162784 fireitup77 said:

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There is reasons to optimistic about this group. They need to continue to grow and get better but this pessimistic attitude that everyone sucks is just wrong.

I don’t think anyone has implied everyone sucks. That’s a weird conclusion.

I think a more accurate conclusion is there is suspicion if all the players played well, why did the Giants have such a hard time running the ball and protecting the quarterback when it mattered.

The Giants came off their best rushing game in Seattle, sat at 5-7, and as it turned out owner their own destiny to reach the playoffs. They then turned out 3 of their worst games of the year.

Why couldn’t they bunker down and Max protect Jones? Why couldn’t they impose some will in the run game?

I think the OL is being hobbled by Jones’ poor pocket instincts and movement. One of the shocking things I saw in last year’s campaign was in the Browns game, where the OL looked like a decent pass blocking unit with McCoy, a player with solid pocket training and instincts, at QB. And this performance was against a good Browns defense.

In comment 15162804 gidiefor said:

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I believe that the latter is a much fairer way to look at this. Show me one team with: three rookie Olinemen playing the majority of the snaps; no real #1 offensive skill players; and a hobbled QB; who can produce well -- just one please.

That's a heck of a rollercoaster to wade through. What I pull from that is:

- The Giants need to add a true no. 1 WR
- Barkley needs to come back the same player
- Thomas needs to be the player he was midseason, not the guy in the beginning and end
- Zeitler needs to play next to a better right tackle, to be a better right guard
- Peart may or may not be that better right tackle
- Hernandez is a solid NFL guard, and it was lingering impacts of Covid, and his poor play in 2019 was a mirage

Dude, I don't feel a lot better!

In comment 15162843 cosmicj said:

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I think the OL is being hobbled by Jones’ poor pocket instincts and movement. One of the shocking things I saw in last year’s campaign was in the Browns game, where the OL looked like a decent pass blocking unit with McCoy, a player with solid pocket training and instincts, at QB. And this performance was against a good Browns defense.

I agree with this. I thought the line played excellent in both the Seattle & Cleveland games.

The type of QB they picked is only going to exceed league average with a pocket to capture sight lines, to step into so feet and leverage consistently allow the mechanics of fast and accurate throws.

I think our guard play is well below what our QB/scheme choices requires and our prime RB (Barkley) requires to radically cut down on useless sideways plays. And I do not think a vertical speed WR solves that problem (more guys/play designs that let more options get off the line and into separation is more important, imo)

I think we fans jump to the conclusion that a spectacular Number 1 WR solves the consistent step into throwing pocket all receivers benefit from nor produces a running game each game that can run even when everyone knows its going to be a run.

Im behind a FA or high draft inside OL player. I dont see game after game above average OL play from any inside OL except Gates.

If it were me, Id prioritize FA and draft for 1-3 more defensive positions ( CB/and 2 Linebackers) a guard and a north south power runner and then a 2 way TE. (wont get all of them and some of them will be marginal improvements).

Assume we dont get anything from Carter or Ximenes and the rest are after all still developing with a likely upside of good depth who execute schemes better than other teams without ever being better than average speed/size/AA/ players. Better and some season surprises but not going to consistently win playoff level football

Id get one mid range FA wr and cluster draft WR in rounds 3-7.

I do not subscribe to the idea that job one is to see what Jones does this year or that the answer is a rookie yet to develop round 1 WR. We have Jones at a low cap number until 2023? What does that tell us? For example, most college WR have to learn to get off the line quickly. Waddle in particular was often schemed to get this for him as he had trouble in college getting off the line ( imo, this is a sign of a high teen/mid 20's slot. combine with size and I dont see a low risk upside for Jones to prove anything. I see Sinorce Moss)

Id get the offense more upfront running and pass protection power and more receiving options. Id even aim to get Barkley 100 receptions and a powerful north south RB.

Meanwhile make the strong units on defense drivers of more short field and turnovers and get the special teams to actual special.

Lets face it, Jones is a long desired referendum on DG...but to Judge he is good enough to not invest/risk on new for more than one year ahead. Just not as urgent as fans want to see.

I want to see more watchable overall Giants play and progress on the team depth of talent.

And im not over rotating on the cap. With attention, they can get the overall pay for performance equation better for this year and next.

In comment 15162908 Bill2 said:

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The type of QB they picked is only going to exceed league average with a pocket to capture sight lines, to step into so feet and leverage consistently allow the mechanics of fast and accurate throws. I think our guard play is well below what our QB/scheme choices requires and our prime RB (Barkley) requires to radically cut down on useless sideways plays. And I do not think a vertical speed WR solves that problem (more guys/play designs that let more options get off the line and into separation is more important, imo) I think we fans jump to the conclusion that a spectacular Number 1 WR solves the consistent step into throwing pocket all receivers benefit from nor produces a running game each game that can run even when everyone knows its going to be a run. Im behind a FA or high draft inside OL player. I dont see game after game above average OL play from any inside OL except Gates. If it were me, Id prioritize FA and draft for 1-3 more defensive positions ( CB/and 2 Linebackers) a guard and a north south power runner and then a 2 way TE. (wont get all of them and some of them will be marginal improvements). Assume we dont get anything from Carter or Ximenes and the rest are after all still developing with a likely upside of good depth who execute schemes better than other teams without ever being better than average speed/size/AA/ players. Better and some season surprises but not going to consistently win playoff level football Id get one mid range FA wr and cluster draft WR in rounds 3-7. I do not subscribe to the idea that job one is to see what Jones does this year or that the answer is a rookie yet to develop round 1 WR. We have Jones at a low cap number until 2023? What does that tell us? For example, most college WR have to learn to get off the line quickly. Waddle in particular was often schemed to get this for him as he had trouble in college getting off the line ( imo, this is a sign of a high teen/mid 20's slot. combine with size and I dont see a low risk upside for Jones to prove anything. I see Sinorce Moss) Id get the offense more upfront running and pass protection power and more receiving options. Id even aim to get Barkley 100 receptions and a powerful north south RB. Meanwhile make the strong units on defense drivers of more short field and turnovers and get the special teams to actual special. Lets face it, Jones is a long desired referendum on DG...but to Judge he is good enough to not invest/risk on new for more than one year ahead. Just not as urgent as fans want to see. I want to see more watchable overall Giants play and progress on the team depth of talent. And im not over rotating on the cap. With attention, they can get the overall pay for performance equation better for this year and next.

Thank you Bill2. You said in one post what i've been trying to say for weeks!

always good to see you posting

than the Bill2 ones. At least from my viewpoint.

I co-ran a profitable subsidiary of a massive retailer experiencing jaw dropping market cap loss last decade -- and every quarter as we ran through the P&L, one by one the business units would list out losses and excuses.

The most laughable were the folks who got their ass kicked in Q3, and then blamed some anomalous outage as the reason they shrank in Q4. No dumbo - you got your ass kicked in Q4 for the reason you got your as kicked in Q3 - your business just sucks.

As chance has it, you might get one component to turn it around dramatically. If you're banking on all 5, you're running low odds.

At some point the reason is the sum of the parts.

I didn't understand the conflation with something Thoreau once said the first time.

I definitely don't understand the following around and monitoring to a conclusion in your head.

So im ignoring your problem and placing it as a reminder of a line from Positively 4th Street.

Last thing the already spiraling site needs is more posters spending their time commenting on other posters

The Giants have something going here. Lots of reps were taken by guys who can play football. Let the young guys train and come back stronger.

They need a Kareem McKenzie to finish the puzzle. I like the idea of being aggressive (Orlando Brown, Penei Sewell, Taylor Moton) if the opportunity presents itself.

In comment 15162790 Ned In Atlanta said:

Quote:

In comment 15162784 fireitup77 said: Quote: Will give it credit for. Thomas struggled early with his footwork. Once he got that fixed, talking about planting his right foot, he showed that he has what it takes to be a very good LT in this league. He was good in the run game all year. It took Garrett a while to realize it and to start running left. When they did the run game got better. WH played well early. Didn't look like it because Thomas struggled early in pass protection. Until a coach says otherwise I'm convinced covid did him in the second half. Gates was good after the first couple of games. And he got better as the season went along. Zietler is what he is. A solid pro. You might not like what he's getting paid but he is a good to very good guard. RT is the question mark. What is Peart? He was a third round pick. A development guy. He got some time early and looked the part. Catches guys instead of punching. He needs to fix that. There is reasons to optimistic about this group. They need to continue to grow and get better but this pessimistic attitude that everyone sucks is just wrong. WH played so well he got benched. Good post by the OP. The line still has a ways to go. I would not be opposed to them taking a highly rated OL at 11 if BPA and need mesh. The team has a lot of glaring needs.

WH had covid and played very little after that. People around here don't realize how bad covid effects some people. Show me where the coaches said he lost his job because of his play. You can't because they never did. Until a coach does then I'm going on that he lasting side effects from covid. And I'm hoping he gets better.

the brick and mortar model flat out doesn't work anymore in some categories/locations.

The rest are just observations of the symptoms that befall a flawed model.

A human system can move one or two variables and flip to a virtuous cycle ( observe neural network movement for proof)

We have 3 pieces. Peart is the wild card. The other guard spot manned by the duo of Hernandez and Lemieux is the big question mark along with Peart.

For a site so starved for ol play it’s just weird how some want to dismiss zietler. He’s not a problem here, at least not yet.

In comment 15162944 djm said:

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We have 3 pieces. Peart is the wild card. The other guard spot manned by the duo of Hernandez and Lemieux is the big question mark along with Peart. For a site so starved for ol play it’s just weird how some want to dismiss Zietler. He’s not a problem here, at least not yet.

If there is hate - it's wrong. But if you
re suggesting he is worth $12m you're out of oyur mind. You're not being weird - you're being silly.

Who are the 3 you say are good now?

Hopefully the spiraling site has also seen an end to garrulous types taking unnecessary shots at certain groups in dawns early light.

The oblique messaging is more immature and bullshit than clever...whatever the fuck inside your head loop you are referring to.

Not worth the time or energy chick. Say what you have to say so I can either explain or apologize. I don't recall taking a shot at you or any particular poster. I don't even connect any opinion or "tribe" you self identify with to or objectionable opinion I ever saw you make.

Could I have been commenting on an opinion or making an observation? Well yes. Its an internet discussion site.

Man up. Maybe post a clear objection or sensitivity so it can be dealt with and we can move forward?

on his overall play, but I tend to agree with the sentiment that he isn't a problem.

Right Tackle is probably the problem DG/Judge are trying to solve for and they don't want to give up Zeitler just yet until that is resolved. Zeitler often had to support poor play by Fleming or the Tight Ends on the right side and the coaches probably want to rely on his experience one more season before they let him go.

What makes this difficult is that there are competing interests for Zeitler's money...like signing up one or both of the DTs.

Good thoughts and balanced outline on Zeitler and the right side of the line.

To me they are trying to:

1) first solve RT
2) improve LG
3) getting either a replacement or better depth at RG in case Zeitler misses 2 games or more of picks up a performance decreasing season injury
4) get another or better inline blocker at TE

But they also may know Zeitler is slipping faster than they thought so they need a RT and a Guard.

I think the Giants/Jones need OL improvement and a power dependable RB more urgently than one expensive or risky investment in a star quality WR. (they do need the whole corps of WR to be better as a group of options).

Obviously, not all those tasks are going to get done in one off season.

They also need 2 more LB and one more upgrade at CB. (if they can keep DT and LW)

Imo, a lot of what we saw last year was the bottom of the roster improved by youth equal to NFL depth but the starting team were not improved enough with enough better than average NFL players.

score enough points and they told the world they need to get Daniel Jones more playmakers just two months ago.

Gettleman is more plain desperate than forward-thinking in his moves and he knows his reputation is tied to Jones. Both of those add up to a receiving target coming on board in free agency. DG isn't the type to "let the draft come to him" so he will sign somebody early in free agency so he doesn't get shut out. Probably add another one in the draft as well.

The defense and Oline may lose out on new investment because of the above and the cost of Leonard Williams.

Wish we knew how an unvarnished Judge/Graham would chose to build.

DG's gambles at a leap forward through a "guy" and then what he can find laying around instead of bowing to reality that he needs 7-8 solid players is getting annoying to watch/live through.

Wish we knew how an unvarnished Judge/Graham would chose to build.

DG's gambles at a leap forward through a "guy" and then what he can find laying around instead of bowing to reality that he needs 7-8 solid players is getting annoying to watch/live through.

He always seems to think we are closer than we are

and underdelivering the OL is what leaves me thinking the recipe leaves us with QB hell (rather than thinking the choice of QB is the primary source of QB hell)

beneficial to the decisions made in the last offseason.

Unfortunately, all that tells me is the non-optimal decision DG would have made became less non-optimal. I am not saying Judge is the holy grail but there is enough evidence to show Gettleman needs to be put out to pasture. Or kept in the building for transition purposes-only, but with a much lesser voice in strategic decisions.

Don't care which one, but lord lets move this along...

Getting to the same observation...Judge is a sane and powerful voice willing to build over time and not worried about his rep in the short run or Jones rep in the short run.

DG wants tombstones memorializing his "deals" as he walks out.

Like Accorsi, he wants to talk about his "Unitas" for the duration of his retirement years.

Me, I cant tell if any QB other than a once in two decades talent is good enough given the NYG holes around him.

There was a Unitas once. So what?

Jolting Joe has left and gone away. Glory Days. All the same stew in DGs head im afraid

Next up should be an announcement on Leonard Williams,

then a bunch of headcount cuts...mostly obvious,

then comes Free Agency to see if they go all-in desperate or more prudent quality building,

and then a hold your breath pick at #11.

Good night, man...

Good night JG

In comment 15163169 Bill2 said:

Quote:

Good thoughts and balanced outline on Zeitler and the right side of the line. To me they are trying to: 1) first solve RT 2) improve LG 3) getting either a replacement or better depth at RG in case Zeitler misses 2 games or more of picks up a performance decreasing season injury 4) get another or better inline blocker at TE But they also may know Zeitler is slipping faster than they thought so they need a RT and a Guard. I think the Giants/Jones need OL improvement and a power dependable RB more urgently than one expensive or risky investment in a star quality WR. (they do need the whole corps of WR to be better as a group of options). Obviously, not all those tasks are going to get done in one off season. They also need 2 more LB and one more upgrade at CB. (if they can keep DT and LW) Imo, a lot of what we saw last year was the bottom of the roster improved by youth equal to NFL depth but the starting team were not improved enough with enough better than average NFL players.

Here's why a WR is preferred over 1st round pick of OL.

In regards to RT; If you are going to draft a RT in 1st round and aren't going to give Peart much of a chance to win the starting position, then what was the point of drafting him?

In terms of LG- you are just going to throw in the towel for both Hernandez and Lemieux?

The WR core is poor. WR is a valued position. You can't be wrong here in drafting a WR when the core is pretty lousy.

And sure you can keep Zeitler - but if you do- say goodbye to LW or DT. For a team not going anywhere it sort of stinks having such a high priced Guard that is slipping and letting go of some young, productive players.

The Giants can safely count on Gates and Thomas being part of the mix over the next 3 years. Zeitler won’t be. No reason to stretch the contract or pay him 12.5M. Use that money as a down payment on *some* solution, any interior lineman upgrade.

In a system where one component is 20% of the sum, making a big leap isn’t a marathon. Increase your odds, don’t really, really hope 4 games in the Fall were a vision.

The Giants have 22.5M wrapped up in Zeitler and Solder next year. Take that in for a moment. A pretty reliable interior guy like Graham Glasgow got 24M guaranteed total last offseason.

Pretty easy decision. Stop the gymnastics trying to justify keeping older players, and go pay a better younger player.