for display only
Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Archived Thread

What is the Status of our Offensive Line?

Jon in NYC : 2/27/2021 9:21 am
May be a dumb question, but I think this is easily the position group with the widest range of outcomes going into next year.

LT: Thomas

4th overall pick, he'll certainly be a starter at either LT or RT. He seemed to finish the year much stronger than he started it. Is he a league average left tackle? Is he better than that?

LG: Lemieux

From my very untrained eye the whole unit seemed to play better when he was inserted into the lineup, but PFF ranked him dead last of all guards in the league. Obviously also a rookie so you'd assume some growth here, but given that he isn't a plus athlete to begin with I'm a little skeptical about how much growth there is. Is he a passable starter right now assuming no improvements?

C: Gates

Ironically the converted tackle is probably the only non question mark on the line. He seemed to play well and the PFF rankings seem to back that up

RG: Zeitler

Including him here, but he's definitely getting older, and he definitely might not be on the roster next year with his cap hit. Even if he is back, this is probably his last season in blue.

RT: Peart

Seemed to play well in spurts, and then actually stumbled more as the season went on and it felt like his snaps were decreasing as Fleming took a stronger hold on the position. I can't imagine there's a huge amount of confidence in him but has he shown enough to be handed the Week 1 role?

Other: Hernandez

Hard to call him anything other than a bust at this point. As I mentioned before it felt like the line played better when he was replaced by Lemieux, and his snaps were basically non existent by the end of the year. That said, he was a high 2nd round pick for a reason. You could convince me he'll be a cap casualty or that he'll be the week 1 right guard.


Other: Solder

Another guy that we don't know if he'll be back. Obviously not at his current cap hit, but it sounds like he wants to play. Does it end up with a training camp battle between him and Peart for RT?





All in all, far more questions than answers. You could easily convince me that we need 3 new starters or that we literally don't need to add any new pieces this offseason.

I'm curious about the general consensus here and what direction people think the team should go in.
This is just an assumption  
robbieballs2003 : 2/27/2021 9:25 am : link
But both Hernandez and Peart got covid last year, right? From my friends who got it they all have shortness of breath and couldn't imagine doing something like playing in an NFL game. We saw it with other players in the NFL who were slowed down by it. Hopefully this was the reason for the lack of usage later in the year and they'll be back to 100% this upcoming year.
RE: This is just an assumption  
Big Blue '56 : 2/27/2021 9:32 am : link
In comment 15162859 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
But both Hernandez and Peart got covid last year, right? From my friends who got it they all have shortness of breath and couldn't imagine doing something like playing in an NFL game. We saw it with other players in the NFL who were slowed down by it. Hopefully this was the reason for the lack of usage later in the year and they'll be back to 100% this upcoming year.


👍🏿👍
Difficult to just point to the Covid virus as the problem with  
Jimmy Googs : 2/27/2021 9:36 am : link
Will Hernandez since it doesn't solve for his below average play in 2019 and first half of 2020.
After watching Biathlon this year  
Chip : 2/27/2021 9:43 am : link
The athletes that had and came back were not as strong as they once were. So I would disagree that having Covid could slow them down. Granted that doing cross country skiing is a lot harder than having 10 second plays and getting a breather.
I am more concerned about the guards....  
George from PA : 2/27/2021 9:51 am : link
Another OT is needed to start at RT or be the swing T. Peart potential seems evident....a Pro-level off-season and more normal camp....offers Peart a more then decent chance to step up.

But I do not feel the young Guards played well enough to be counted as sure fire options to start.....and just not sure there is enough talent. They need to figure out how to lower Zeitler cap....that is mutually beneficial.....so they need another starting guard imo.
RE: Difficult to just point to the Covid virus as the problem with  
eric2425ny : 2/27/2021 10:04 am : link
In comment 15162868 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
Will Hernandez since it doesn't solve for his below average play in 2019 and first half of 2020.


Hernandez has been disappointing even pre COVID. When they took him high in the second round I felt like here we go, this is like when they got Snee. Not even close.
Bottom 10 in the NFL  
arniefez : 2/27/2021 10:06 am : link
maybe bottom 5. Just like the rest of the roster.
Still needs work  
Rick in Dallas : 2/27/2021 10:08 am : link
Would not be upset at all if we used one of our top 3 picks on an offensive lineman.
RE: RE: Difficult to just point to the Covid virus as the problem with  
Bruner4329 : 2/27/2021 10:20 am : link
In comment 15162895 eric2425ny said:
Quote:
In comment 15162868 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


Will Hernandez since it doesn't solve for his below average play in 2019 and first half of 2020.



Hernandez has been disappointing even pre COVID. When they took him high in the second round I felt like here we go, this is like when they got Snee. Not even close.

Exactly. His play has pretty much gone down hill since his rookie season. Not sure what people are thinking when they say we should cut Zeitler and make him our starting guard. At this point in my opinion Hernandez is no slam dunk to be on the roster come fall.
OT = Top FA Target  
TurnAndCoughlin : 2/27/2021 10:22 am : link
I firmly believe a top OT should be our #1 external FA target (ie, excluding LW, our internal target). From a cap standpoint it makes a ton of sense with rookie contracts at the other OT and one OG, a very reasonable C contract, leaving Zeitler as the only decent salary tied up in OL. Sign Trent Williams, Moton or Daryl Williams to a three or four year deal (ending by the time Thomas is up for a second contract). Result is a line with a high probability of being stable and a possibility of being great. Great Depth too with Peart as the cheap swing tackle waiting in the wings, and Lemiuex/Hernandez as cheap backup Guard. This is one move that should align perfectly with big picture cap structuring ($s allocated per position group), resulting in a stable, high upside OL to block for DJ and Saquads. Focus on offensive playmakers in the draft.

This is my dream scenario.
it's a horrible offensive line  
GiantsFan84 : 2/27/2021 10:52 am : link
there are 2 legit pieces in thomas and gates. that's it.

peart is an unknown, lemiuex cannot pass block and therefore is an enormous liability, hernandez is average at best. zeitler should be cut as he's not worth his cap number
.  
GiantEgo : 2/27/2021 11:17 am : link
I guess it's impossible for a rookie guard to improve any aspect of his game. I learn so much on BBI everyday!
RE: .  
GiantsFan84 : 2/27/2021 11:30 am : link
In comment 15162930 GiantEgo said:
Quote:
I guess it's impossible for a rookie guard to improve any aspect of his game. I learn so much on BBI everyday!


lemieux showed me nothing that he can be a good long-term piece and be someone they should and can count on
Don't sleep on  
Gman11 : 2/27/2021 11:34 am : link
Hala...I mean, Hernandez.
OLINE extremely questuionable  
giantstock : 2/27/2021 11:55 am : link
Target drafting 2 OL in 1st 4 rounds this year or pickup 1 in FA and then draft 1.

Everything depends on what's going to be done with both LW and DT.

We've heard a lot of talk early on that Hernandez was a good pick and was doing fine. Now that tables have turned and he's a bust?

It's neither. He's not very good but he isn't a bust. But I can recall how many on here in there extreme view to stick up for DG would over-exaggerate Hernandez performance. You know there are probably some on here that still think Hernandez has performed well thus is a solid pick. As of right now-- he wasn't/isn't.

IMO Hernandez isn't awful but he's not good either. He has another year to show what he can do in Big Blue. Overall the OL needs help but they are young. The GMEN for example did draft Peart in 3rd rd. I hope no one is suggesting that he can't perform? Same with Lemieux. Can't assume 3rd and 4th round picks are going to be consistently good in year 1. Give 'em a chance along with draft and/or FA pickup(s).

Nate Solder and Matt Peart  
George : 2/27/2021 12:10 pm : link
The OL is better than it's been in a few years. It's not great, but it's not horrendous. I wish we had another left guard, but I still have hope that Hernandez and Lemieux can improve. With the late season development of Andrew Thomas and the surprising success of Nick Gates at center, the real question mark now is right tackle.

Will it be Nate Solder? Will it be Matt Peart? How do the Giants feel about either of them at that position? Do we go into FA or the draft looking for a solution? Only the organization knows the answers to those.

The way the Giants treat Nate Solder in the next few weeks will tell us a lot about how they feel about Matt Peart going into 2021. And the way they feel about Matt Peart going into 2021 will tell us a lot about how they see the quality of their OL going into FA and the draft.

So I'm watching pretty closely how Nate's contract saga progresses these next ten days.
RE: .  
Jon in NYC : 2/27/2021 12:13 pm : link
In comment 15162930 GiantEgo said:
Quote:
I guess it's impossible for a rookie guard to improve any aspect of his game. I learn so much on BBI everyday!


Did you even read the post?

Quote:
Obviously also a rookie so you'd assume some growth here


Center and left tackle are pretty well set, IMO. Between Zeitler, if  
Ira : 2/27/2021 12:15 pm : link
he stays, Hernandez and Lemieux, I think we'll be ok at guards. I don't know how Judge views Peart, but it might be a good idea to bring someone a little better than Fleming to compete with him at rt.
RE: RE: This is just an assumption  
fireitup77 : 2/27/2021 12:16 pm : link
In comment 15162864 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 15162859 robbieballs2003 said:


Quote:


But both Hernandez and Peart got covid last year, right? From my friends who got it they all have shortness of breath and couldn't imagine doing something like playing in an NFL game. We saw it with other players in the NFL who were slowed down by it. Hopefully this was the reason for the lack of usage later in the year and they'll be back to 100% this upcoming year.



👍🏿👍


👍👍👍👍
Just curious  
fireitup77 : 2/27/2021 12:23 pm : link
How many on here make their Oline judgments by just watching the games live? How many watch the all 22?

I ask because I have family that coach at the college level who claim it's very difficult to judge Oline play without the tape.

The guys I trust, like bobby skinner, have vastly different opinions than most here.
RE: RE: RE: Difficult to just point to the Covid virus as the problem with  
fireitup77 : 2/27/2021 12:26 pm : link
In comment 15162904 Bruner4329 said:
Quote:
In comment 15162895 eric2425ny said:


Quote:


In comment 15162868 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


Will Hernandez since it doesn't solve for his below average play in 2019 and first half of 2020.



Hernandez has been disappointing even pre COVID. When they took him high in the second round I felt like here we go, this is like when they got Snee. Not even close.


Exactly. His play has pretty much gone down hill since his rookie season. Not sure what people are thinking when they say we should cut Zeitler and make him our starting guard. At this point in my opinion Hernandez is no slam dunk to be on the roster come fall.


You mean the 2019 season where he played between Nate solder and Pio? I don't think the best guard of all time would look good playing between those two.
RE: RE: RE: Difficult to just point to the Covid virus as the problem with  
giantstock : 2/27/2021 12:28 pm : link
In comment 15162904 Bruner4329 said:
Quote:
In comment 15162895 eric2425ny said:


Quote:


In comment 15162868 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


Will Hernandez since it doesn't solve for his below average play in 2019 and first half of 2020.



Hernandez has been disappointing even pre COVID. When they took him high in the second round I felt like here we go, this is like when they got Snee. Not even close.


Exactly. His play has pretty much gone down hill since his rookie season. Not sure what people are thinking when they say we should cut Zeitler and make him our starting guard. At this point in my opinion Hernandez is no slam dunk to be on the roster come fall.


You can cut Zeitler and then draft a 2nd round interior lineman or draft a Tackle to convert to a guard. Then you've saved a ton of money. Early 2nd rounders should be able to start.

I wouldn't give up on Hernandez or Lemieux either.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Difficult to just point to the Covid virus as the problem with  
Bruner4329 : 2/27/2021 2:04 pm : link
In comment 15162968 giantstock said:
Quote:
In comment 15162904 Bruner4329 said:


Quote:


In comment 15162895 eric2425ny said:


Quote:


In comment 15162868 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


Will Hernandez since it doesn't solve for his below average play in 2019 and first half of 2020.



Hernandez has been disappointing even pre COVID. When they took him high in the second round I felt like here we go, this is like when they got Snee. Not even close.


Exactly. His play has pretty much gone down hill since his rookie season. Not sure what people are thinking when they say we should cut Zeitler and make him our starting guard. At this point in my opinion Hernandez is no slam dunk to be on the roster come fall.



You can cut Zeitler and then draft a 2nd round interior lineman or draft a Tackle to convert to a guard. Then you've saved a ton of money. Early 2nd rounders should be able to start.

I wouldn't give up on Hernandez or Lemieux either.


So let me get this straight. You want to cut Zeitler and draft a lineman in the 2nd round and hope he can convert into a good guard? Isn't the goal to get better. You bring in an unknown like that and you are playing with fire and taking a step backwards. You can't put together a roster with a wing and a prayer. Please if you want to cut our best guard then please have a common sense replacement plan.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Difficult to just point to the Covid virus as the problem with  
giantstock : 2/27/2021 2:29 pm : link
In comment 15163023 Bruner4329 said:
Quote:
In comment 15162968 giantstock said:


Quote:


In comment 15162904 Bruner4329 said:


Quote:


In comment 15162895 eric2425ny said:


Quote:


In comment 15162868 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


Will Hernandez since it doesn't solve for his below average play in 2019 and first half of 2020.



Hernandez has been disappointing even pre COVID. When they took him high in the second round I felt like here we go, this is like when they got Snee. Not even close.


Exactly. His play has pretty much gone down hill since his rookie season. Not sure what people are thinking when they say we should cut Zeitler and make him our starting guard. At this point in my opinion Hernandez is no slam dunk to be on the roster come fall.



You can cut Zeitler and then draft a 2nd round interior lineman or draft a Tackle to convert to a guard. Then you've saved a ton of money. Early 2nd rounders should be able to start.

I wouldn't give up on Hernandez or Lemieux either.



So let me get this straight. You want to cut Zeitler and draft a lineman in the 2nd round and hope he can convert into a good guard? Isn't the goal to get better. You bring in an unknown like that and you are playing with fire and taking a step backwards. You can't put together a roster with a wing and a prayer. Please if you want to cut our best guard then please have a common sense replacement plan.


What you call as an "unknown" I call as making a good draft pick. If you think having a draft pick in early in the 2nd round is called "a wing and prayer" then I don't know what to say.

Please have common sense when it comes to early 2nd round picks instead of getting on your high horse with extreme exaggerations.
I am much more bullish than most on here I guess  
PatersonPlank : 2/27/2021 3:03 pm : link
I think the OL got better and better as they matured. We had some really good running games.

Thomas - going to be a mainstay at LT
Lem/Hern - I like Hernandez and I agree with Skinner. I don't consider him a bust, I'd say right now he's an avg Guard and better then Lemiuex
Gates - good player
Zeitler - good player
Peart - potential, but unknown right now

I would feel comfortable next year as long as we do something at RT. I'd be ok with Solder on a pay cut, or bring in someone to compete with Peart.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Difficult to just point to the Covid virus as the problem with  
Bruner4329 : 2/27/2021 3:16 pm : link
In comment 15163031 giantstock said:
Quote:
In comment 15163023 Bruner4329 said:


Quote:


In comment 15162968 giantstock said:


Quote:


In comment 15162904 Bruner4329 said:


Quote:


In comment 15162895 eric2425ny said:


Quote:


In comment 15162868 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


Will Hernandez since it doesn't solve for his below average play in 2019 and first half of 2020.



Hernandez has been disappointing even pre COVID. When they took him high in the second round I felt like here we go, this is like when they got Snee. Not even close.


Exactly. His play has pretty much gone down hill since his rookie season. Not sure what people are thinking when they say we should cut Zeitler and make him our starting guard. At this point in my opinion Hernandez is no slam dunk to be on the roster come fall.



You can cut Zeitler and then draft a 2nd round interior lineman or draft a Tackle to convert to a guard. Then you've saved a ton of money. Early 2nd rounders should be able to start.

I wouldn't give up on Hernandez or Lemieux either.



So let me get this straight. You want to cut Zeitler and draft a lineman in the 2nd round and hope he can convert into a good guard? Isn't the goal to get better. You bring in an unknown like that and you are playing with fire and taking a step backwards. You can't put together a roster with a wing and a prayer. Please if you want to cut our best guard then please have a common sense replacement plan.



What you call as an "unknown" I call as making a good draft pick. If you think having a draft pick in early in the 2nd round is called "a wing and prayer" then I don't know what to say.

Please have common sense when it comes to early 2nd round picks instead of getting on your high horse with extreme exaggerations.


Common sense? You need to look no further than this team to realize it is no lock. If Hernandez was as good as advertised we would not be having this discussion. But he is not. Plus in your post you mention the whole reasoning was because we save money. Well it does not work like that in the real world. Sure you need to manage the cap but you can't just cut someone like Zeitler just for money, especially when you do not have an in house replacement and by cutting him you take a step backwards. This isn't Madden football.
I see what you’re doing...  
Giant John : 2/27/2021 3:30 pm : link
Trick question right?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Difficult to just point to the Covid virus as the problem with  
giantstock : 2/27/2021 4:17 pm : link
In comment 15163043 Bruner4329 said:
Quote:
In comment 15163031 giantstock said:


Quote:


In comment 15163023 Bruner4329 said:


Quote:


In comment 15162968 giantstock said:


Quote:


In comment 15162904 Bruner4329 said:


Quote:


In comment 15162895 eric2425ny said:


Quote:


In comment 15162868 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


Will Hernandez since it doesn't solve for his below average play in 2019 and first half of 2020.



Hernandez has been disappointing even pre COVID. When they took him high in the second round I felt like here we go, this is like when they got Snee. Not even close.


Exactly. His play has pretty much gone down hill since his rookie season. Not sure what people are thinking when they say we should cut Zeitler and make him our starting guard. At this point in my opinion Hernandez is no slam dunk to be on the roster come fall.



You can cut Zeitler and then draft a 2nd round interior lineman or draft a Tackle to convert to a guard. Then you've saved a ton of money. Early 2nd rounders should be able to start.

I wouldn't give up on Hernandez or Lemieux either.



So let me get this straight. You want to cut Zeitler and draft a lineman in the 2nd round and hope he can convert into a good guard? Isn't the goal to get better. You bring in an unknown like that and you are playing with fire and taking a step backwards. You can't put together a roster with a wing and a prayer. Please if you want to cut our best guard then please have a common sense replacement plan.



What you call as an "unknown" I call as making a good draft pick. If you think having a draft pick in early in the 2nd round is called "a wing and prayer" then I don't know what to say.

Please have common sense when it comes to early 2nd round picks instead of getting on your high horse with extreme exaggerations.



Common sense? You need to look no further than this team to realize it is no lock. If Hernandez was as good as advertised we would not be having this discussion. But he is not. Plus in your post you mention the whole reasoning was because we save money. Well it does not work like that in the real world. Sure you need to manage the cap but you can't just cut someone like Zeitler just for money, especially when you do not have an in house replacement and by cutting him you take a step backwards. This isn't Madden football.


Let me get this straight -- you couldn't also figure out that it is money AND a player being drafted capable of being a starter? What you lack is common sense. You can't figure out when I said 2nd rd pick- that it meant a capable player that cat start? I'm sorry but I can't dumb things down for you any further than that. It's not Madden Football - it's just common sense.

If you are going to be this thick- then go bother someone else. C'mon. You understand the point of the draft, correct? If you do then you'd realize 2nd round picks early on are likely to be starters. It's why I SPECFICALLY MENTIONED 2ND RD PICk! Yet you weren't bright enough to understand that it is BOTH a starter and money????

Secondly, while you refer to Hernandez- I'll refer to Braden Smith. Apparently, you are too dug into this argument to understand a 2nd rd pick for a guard could be a starter and doesn't take a wing and prayer.

Third- you're right about Hernandez. But if we had a competent GM we'd already have that legit starter from a few years ago. Hopefully based on what he's done recently- maybe let others choose etc- that we can get some good players.
"What is the Status of our Offensive Line?"  
OntheRoad : 2/27/2021 5:00 pm : link

As of the end of the season, the offensive line was maturing, cohering, and settling down. Needs one more piece and a few more games to to be respectable.

The biggest problem is RT, which has been a sore spot for the last ten years. One possibility is to move Gates to RT, where I think he successfully filled in last year, if they find a starting center in free agency or the draft. The other is to put Solder at RT. He was not good at LT recently, but maybe he will be better than Fleming at RT.
...  
christian : 2/27/2021 5:01 pm : link
I get a little skeptical of opinions when the observation is the line played well down the stretch, specifically Thomas. He had some really rough games, especially vs. AZ.

The unit as a whole got pushed around the last 1/4 of the season.

Not to say any of the young guys can’t or won’t develop. Distinct possibility they will. But that’s a hopeful opinion.

If you believe the amateur internet analysts, individually 4/5 of the line was awesome.

No square that with near league leading pressure and sack numbers that persisted over the final 4 games.
RE: ...  
fireitup77 : 2/27/2021 6:22 pm : link
In comment 15163073 christian said:
Quote:
I get a little skeptical of opinions when the observation is the line played well down the stretch, specifically Thomas. He had some really rough games, especially vs. AZ.

The unit as a whole got pushed around the last 1/4 of the season.

Not to say any of the young guys can’t or won’t develop. Distinct possibility they will. But that’s a hopeful opinion.

If you believe the amateur internet analysts, individually 4/5 of the line was awesome.

No square that with near league leading pressure and sack numbers that persisted over the final 4 games.



Thomas had one rough game against az. He was real good in the second half. Especially in the run game.
Let's give this group some time to improve....  
No Where Man : 2/28/2021 8:08 am : link
as they learn how to play together. Sleeper contributer, Kyle Murphy.
In regards to Thomas  
UGADawgs7 : 2/28/2021 12:54 pm : link
We all do realize that he had a hurt foot week 1 or 2 that required off season surgery right? He was able to play through that and had some very good games. It’s possible some games, the foot was hurting a lot more and he had to change technique that messed him up?
In regards to the OG, it’s a major issue. Look at Judge and not wanting to play Hernandez late in the year in favor of Lemieux. Hernandez had better numbers but not great. Maybe Covid did have a huge role in his lack of production and being forced to use Lemieux? The cap issue as well with NYG, makes it very difficult to invest this off season on improvements and if Slater or Sewell somehow fall, it truly is a real discussion on whether or opt to draft one. Slater could be Nelson like and allows cutting Zeitler and saving the $12M a lot better. As of now, he’s the best OG NYG have and could be very bad for Jones and Barkley future if he is cut with no replacement.
Gates is my new favorite player  
NNJ Tom : 2/28/2021 6:44 pm : link
He is first in line at any fight. He reminds me of Snee that way.

You need a few enforcers along the line.
Status? It's still a draft away from being good.  
Kev in Cali : 3/1/2021 12:56 am : link
Keep drafting hopefuls and pray it works out. Hernandez is still OK on his rookie contract....he will need to be replaced in a couple years.

We need to keep this pipeline of young OL talent going!
RE: In regards to Thomas  
giantstock : 3/1/2021 1:08 am : link
In comment 15163536 UGADawgs7 said:
Quote:
As of now, he’s the best OG NYG have and could be very bad for Jones and Barkley future if he is cut with no replacement.


If GMEN cut him and they don't replace him in FA or a high round 1 or rd 2 in draft then at least we have a good idea that our moronic GM will finally be gone. Maybe 3rd rd but that 3rd rd is very risky.
Back to the Corner