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| Bobby Skinner@BobbySkinner_ Nate Solder was horrendous in 2019, admitted to not really conditioning or working out this past year, his focus is off the field and is going to be 33 with another limited offseason so sure we can keep him on a pay cut as the swing OT but don't expect better play than Fleming. |
This guy cannot possibly be more dedicated to the Giants!
What a high-paid piece of crap. Get rid of him now. Right now.
This guy cannot possibly be more dedicated to the Giants!
What a high-paid piece of crap. Get rid of him now. Right now.
It does ring of "taking the money and running", but the health situation/crisis with his son deserves some compassion on this. However, Solder shouldn't be on the team going forward. Hard to trust and count on him at this point.
This guy cannot possibly be more dedicated to the Giants!
What a high-paid piece of crap. Get rid of him now. Right now.
His kid is battling cancer, maybe take that into account before you criticize him. Sure he was a terrible signing but it’s not a surprise that he didn’t work out hard last year while he was out. Let’s see what happens with his contract.
Regardless of what happens with Solder I hope the Giants sign Kelvin Beachum to be the swing tackle. Beachum has always been a solid player wherever he’s played. He should be cheaper than Fleming also.
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"Nate Solder was horrendous in 2019, admitted to not really conditioning or working out this past year
This guy cannot possibly be more dedicated to the Giants!
What a high-paid piece of crap. Get rid of him now. Right now.
His kid is battling cancer, maybe take that into account before you criticize him. Sure he was a terrible signing but it’s not a surprise that he didn’t work out hard last year while he was out. Let’s see what happens with his contract.
Regardless of what happens with Solder I hope the Giants sign Kelvin Beachum to be the swing tackle. Beachum has always been a solid player wherever he’s played. He should be cheaper than Fleming also.
Agreed on Beachum. I wanted him a few years ago when they chose Remmers instead
You can read anything into this. I didn't think much of it. Here's a guy who has battled injuries so going all out may have been better for him. Now if he weighs 360 or 250, that would be a problem but he announced he wants to play so I don't think it is unreasonable that a veteran couldn't get into playing shape in 4 months if he maintained a solid workout regimen.
I do think that Skinner is correct in saying we should basically expect a swing tackle type output considering how he played in 2019, taking a year off from football and his age.
Can he mentally pickup stunts better than Fleming? Can he be a good mentor to our two young OT's (especially Peart in my opinion as they both have crazy length)? Is he willing to take a significant paycut? Is he willing to be a backup if he gets beat out by Peart. Those are the questions that they need to answer with this guy.
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Regardless of what happens with Solder I hope the Giants sign Kelvin Beachum to be the swing tackle. Beachum has always been a solid player wherever he’s played. He should be cheaper than Fleming also.
Get on board the Kelvin Beachum fan train!
And because we often play the game of "we had no choice, who else was available" -- I'd much rather cut Solder and sign Kelvin Beachum to a 1 year deal.
I believe at this point he's the superior player and will cost less money as a stop gap.
The O-line has been a problem for us all since 2008. Even in 11' we had a rotation going because C-David Baas couldn't stay on the field and then LT-Will Beaty went down. That was actually a Godsend because Diehl was so bad at LG he was killing us so when he shifted to LT and Kevin Booth went to LG from Center the line improved and we won it all. Since then it has been a nightmare.
Justin Pugh, Weston Richburg, Ereck Flowers, Bobby Hart, James Brewer, Chad Wheeler, etc.. WERE ALL BUSTS. Geoff Schwartz & Will Beatty were injured and never lived up to their potential. Guys like DJ Fluker & Jamon Brown teased but didn't show enough to be retained.
Solder was supposed to be a better acquisition that would let us have an anchor to build around to fix this O-line and make it respectable again.... All he did was to continue the ineptness and bring it to another level. It was frustrating to watch. He was solid but unspectacular in New England. He came here as a savior for big big money and basically went through the motions at half speed and effort with no urgency for two seasons. Playing like he had his head up his ass he completely shit the bed.
We should bring back Fleming if we can. He is only 28 and had his best year in 20' so with better coaching he could do well to earn the RT spot again or be our swing OT. I really like the trio of Thomas, Peart, & Fleming. No need to screw it up by letting Fleming walk and keeping numb nuts Solder. Fleming earned a new contract. He was way better than Solder would be for us and is still improving.
If we could draft a guy like G/C-Quinn Meinerz in the 3rd round and bring back Fleming and Zeitler I believe we could have a line that will finally be up to par and then further developing into a true strength; a line that can set the tone and control the line of scrimmage. On both sides of the ball we can have an identity of being tough in the trenches.
If you ask me Nate Solder is like Evan Engram. They are coach killers; all full of talent and completely devoid of the intangibles to be an asset to a team; all athlete and zero acumen for the game of football. Plus they are both soft and weak. Time to move on with building a team that fits Joe Judge's vision. Let's get rid of all the pretenders.
There was a report, from maybe Traina, that she (or someone) has seen him and that he looked like he had lost a great deal of muscle mass. That would lead to the conclusion he hadn’t worked out much.
Norwell hasn't really worked out either.
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DG couldn’t grab the Guard from Carolina. Most folks were happy when he was picked up. I guess Brady and Scarnecchia made him what he was in New England because he’s been terrible here. I understand some of the issues he’s had to deal with and it’s possible that that’s contributed to his level of play. I suppose you could bring him back to compete on the right side with Peart with the loser playing swing tackle.
Norwell hasn't really worked out either.
Yeah he has been average also. Both bad signings IMO
That said, blaming the guy for having negotiated a huge contract and underperforming it is just silly. We brought him in at a point when the team was desperate for any kind of upgrade at the position, and he was the best option available at the time. He had us over a barrel and he knew it. He was probably one serious injury away from his career being done, and nobody else is looking out for him.
I wish he had played better for the money he was paid, but acting he took the team's money and dogged it out there is ridiculous.
That makes him a normal human being. Should he be a New York Giant? Probably not — unless he can refocus on being an elite athlete in time for training camp. But it doesn't make him a bad guy.
As someone noted on another thread, every left tackle who has played next to Will Hernandez has been terrible. Either the Giants have very bad judgement in selecting their OLTs or Hernandez is a very big problem.
Now I'm sure his ankle and his child were a huge factor
This guy cannot possibly be more dedicated to the Giants!
What a high-paid piece of crap. Get rid of him now. Right now.
Maybe switch to decaf.
Regardless of what happens with Solder I hope the Giants sign Kelvin Beachum to be the swing tackle. Beachum has always been a solid player wherever he’s played. He should be cheaper than Fleming also.
Agreed on Beachum. I wanted him a few years ago when they chose Remmers instead
I’ve wanted Beachum for years too. I didn’t understand why the Jets let him go and gave so much more to George Fant who isn’t an upgrade.
Beachum was cheaper than Fleming last year also.
I’m not sure why anyone thinks Solder will be a better football player, older and a year removed from the game. He hasn’t been an adequate player for 3 years.
He played well when his son was sick in New England. He played well after he himself was sick.
He’s old and isn’t very good now. There’s no mystery.
You keep thinking maybe he can get back close to what he was; or maybe he can play at a high level in a more limited role.
It very likely will not happen. The sooner you cut this guy the better. Restructuring is just throwing good money after bad. Solder is a sunk cost. Face it and move on
So I'm not sure the Lost year is harmful.
It might even be restorative. I'd argue that you are at your peak in your early to mid thirties, that there's no loss of reflexes and increased strength. Again, exclusive of the wear and tear.
But just a personal Theory and I know of no scientific backup
That said, blaming the guy for having negotiated a huge contract and underperforming it is just silly. We brought him in at a point when the team was desperate for any kind of upgrade at the position, and he was the best option available at the time. He had us over a barrel and he knew it. He was probably one serious injury away from his career being done, and nobody else is looking out for him.
I wish he had played better for the money he was paid, but acting he took the team's money and dogged it out there is ridiculous.
It's always the team's fault when a player contract flops like this. The agent can only ask for a dollar amount. The team decides if it's a good move.
The Giants were very happy to sign him. They loved the move. It was just a very large player evaluation failure.
Pert was looking good until the Ravens decided to run 3-man pressures on his side for that dreadful 3-play sequence . Wink the Sassy One was ready for the wave rotation on the offensive line , a move that I hope Judge permanently eschews going forward . But part ways with Nate (but God Bless) & have Fleming in the mix for one more season .
And now with not even playing in the last year or so, not being in the same consistent football shape, this seems more unlikely than ever he will be a value-add to the roster at any price.
Highly respected as a person and a player, hopefully Solder makes the right family decision. Wish him the best of luck.
I’m not sure why anyone thinks Solder will be a better football player, older and a year removed from the game. He hasn’t been an adequate player for 3 years.
He played well when his son was sick in New England. He played well after he himself was sick.
He’s old and isn’t very good now. There’s no mystery.
I'm not advocating for keeping Solder, especially with anything close to his current deal, but playing devils advocate:
- Maybe he was able to clear his mind with a year away
- Maybe his son's health has improved and he can better focus
- Maybe (likely) he was banged up the last couple seasons and a year away from the grind has helped him heal physically, despite being 1 year older. It's not like he's 38...
As for an earlier post, why would Beachum be cheaper than Solder/Fleming if he's a better player?
Solder won’t make anything close to 10M on the open market.
Swing tackles made between 1 - 3.5M last year. And the market for lower level players is the most likely to be depressed by the cap contraction.
With the cap being close to 25M less than teams anticipated, a guy like Nate Solder might not even get signed, and a team opt for a late round rookie who won’t count against the cap.
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Seems they would be better off getting cut and signing somewhere else.
Solder won’t make anything close to 10M on the open market.
Swing tackles made between 1 - 3.5M last year. And the market for lower level players is the most likely to be depressed by the cap contraction.
With the cap being close to 25M less than teams anticipated, a guy like Nate Solder might not even get signed, and a team opt for a late round rookie who won’t count against the cap.
If I were the player I'd make them cut me before accepting a pay cut.
As for an earlier post, why would Beachum be cheaper than Solder/Fleming if he's a better player?
Because the other two negotiated their deals with the NY Giants...
The O-line has been a problem for us all since 2008. Even in 11' we had a rotation going because C-David Baas couldn't stay on the field and then LT-Will Beaty went down. That was actually a Godsend because Diehl was so bad at LG he was killing us so when he shifted to LT and Kevin Booth went to LG from Center the line improved and we won it all. Since then it has been a nightmare.
Justin Pugh, Weston Richburg, Ereck Flowers, Bobby Hart, James Brewer, Chad Wheeler, etc.. WERE ALL BUSTS. Geoff Schwartz & Will Beatty were injured and never lived up to their potential. Guys like DJ Fluker & Jamon Brown teased but didn't show enough to be retained.
Solder was supposed to be a better acquisition that would let us have an anchor to build around to fix this O-line and make it respectable again.... All he did was to continue the ineptness and bring it to another level. It was frustrating to watch. He was solid but unspectacular in New England. He came here as a savior for big big money and basically went through the motions at half speed and effort with no urgency for two seasons. Playing like he had his head up his ass he completely shit the bed.
We should bring back Fleming if we can. He is only 28 and had his best year in 20' so with better coaching he could do well to earn the RT spot again or be our swing OT. I really like the trio of Thomas, Peart, & Fleming. No need to screw it up by letting Fleming walk and keeping numb nuts Solder. Fleming earned a new contract. He was way better than Solder would be for us and is still improving.
If we could draft a guy like G/C-Quinn Meinerz in the 3rd round and bring back Fleming and Zeitler I believe we could have a line that will finally be up to par and then further developing into a true strength; a line that can set the tone and control the line of scrimmage. On both sides of the ball we can have an identity of being tough in the trenches.
If you ask me Nate Solder is like Evan Engram. They are coach killers; all full of talent and completely devoid of the intangibles to be an asset to a team; all athlete and zero acumen for the game of football. Plus they are both soft and weak. Time to move on with building a team that fits Joe Judge's vision. Let's get rid of all the pretenders.
Agree EXCEPT on Schwartz. Schwartz always sucked, and only started 16 games once in his life.
There’s no universe where the Giants pay Nate Solder 10M this year, so in that case would be quite easy, and the Giants would cut him today.
Agree EXCEPT on Schwartz. Schwartz always sucked, and only started 16 games once in his life.
Word. That was one of Reese's more stupid FA signings. The guy was an always injured, career backup journeyman, and started only 7 games in the previous three years!
No one is paying him in a reduced cap year. If he really want to pay he's going to be paid way less.
The one thing you could maybe, if you are really optimistic is the year off was good for his body and surgery recovery. I don't think that would hold up though through a season, even if it did help him.
So I'm not sure the Lost year is harmful.
It might even be restorative. I'd argue that you are at your peak in your early to mid thirties, that there's no loss of reflexes and increased strength. Again, exclusive of the wear and tear.
But just a personal Theory and I know of no scientific backup
The Incredible Lost Theory.
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with the kid situation he gets a pass. So he should take a pay cut and he would be valuable player on the bench or maybe a starter.
Agreed. NYG probably don't want to cut him due to his family situation. This isn't like a guy who has his priorities out of whack --quite the contrary.
True, but unfortunately, it is beginning to feel at least a little bit like his priorities being intact are problematic for the Giants. If he's truly considering retirement and just going through the motions to force NYG to cut him rather than have his signing bonus exposed via retirement, that's kind of a shitty move.
I don't know if that's the case, and it seems wrong to even suggest it, but it does feel like Solder's position (via beat writers, so there may or may not be any credibility there) has shifted pretty dramatically from "leaning toward retirement" to "wants to come back and play" and while it's entirely possible that he does indeed miss the game, then I don't think anyone should be using his personal life as an excuse in 2021 - he has now had a chance to walk away from the game and focus on his family, and if he's choosing the game, he had better choose the game all the way.
But it's not really inconceivable that he's just forcing the Giants' hand here, is it? NYG can't go after his bonus (not that they even would, IMO) if he doesn't retire, so this is still the safest move for him to avoid losing any of his money. And it would be completely understandable and aligned with where any reasonable person should expect his priority to be - and that priority probably isn't playing OL for the Giants.
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In comment 15163921 US1 Giants said:
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Seems they would be better off getting cut and signing somewhere else.
Solder won’t make anything close to 10M on the open market.
Swing tackles made between 1 - 3.5M last year. And the market for lower level players is the most likely to be depressed by the cap contraction.
With the cap being close to 25M less than teams anticipated, a guy like Nate Solder might not even get signed, and a team opt for a late round rookie who won’t count against the cap.
If I were the player I'd make them cut me before accepting a pay cut.
Would you do the same at your own job, faced with that choice and no assurance that anyone else is going to offer you a new job and that it might well be the end of that career track for you if you've been out of work for two years instead of one?
Or would you consider a salary reduction to keep yourself in the mix and then start preparing your resume? In this case, Solder has two years of bad tape and an opt-out year for his most recent history. Another year out of the game is the end for him, IMO. A pay cut gives him a chance at additional money and an opportunity to earn his next contract if he truly does want to keep playing. Forcing NYG's hand to release him instead of a paycut introduces the risk that he has earned his last NFL penny already.
There are teams all over the NFL who could use OL - if the Giants cut him, someone will sign him
I think the biggest question is if his heart is into football after his kid and covid. Saying you want to play and then getting ready to actually play are 2 very different things
There are teams all over the NFL who could use OL - if the Giants cut him, someone will sign him
I think the biggest question is if his heart is into football after his kid and covid. Saying you want to play and then getting ready to actually play are 2 very different things
In this case, what Solder gets in return for a reduced salary is that reduced salary. I wouldn't be shocked if the remaining salary after the pay cut gets fully guaranteed to go along with some incentives that may allow NS to recoup some of that money.
If he refuses it, he may find himself with no salary at all, from the Giants or anyone else in the NFL (someone might sign him to a non-guaranteed deal, but that could result in him being cut down when rosters reduce in the fall), so even a reduced salary - if guaranteed - might be his best offer. It depends how much humility he brings to the table.
You can't worry about a player like him. Every dollar needs to be focused on signing players who are part of the solution.
In some of the conversations about what the Giants' options are with Solder, it seems as though some fans are acting as though Solder has some leverage over the Giants because of the cap space (in the form of dead money) that he'll occupy this year even if the Giants cut him (or trade him, but generally the conversation is about cutting him, as that's far more likely than trading his current contract).
The way that I read some posts, and maybe I'm just reading them wrong, is that some fans appear to believe that the $10.5M cap hit that the Giants would incur by releasing him this offseason is actually money that is still due to Solder, and that that dollar amount represents the starting point for negotiations in a paycut context.
That's not the case. That money is called dead money because it has already been paid, but has not yet been accounted for on the salary cap. So if Solder is released before the completion of his contract, that money becomes due immediately, instead of hitting the cap according to the amortization schedule that spreads signing bonuses across the life of the contract (up to five seasons max; any additional years cannot be used to amortize the original signing bonus). That $10.5M is irrelevant to any decisions the Giants should be considering with Solder (though it would hopefully inform their contract decisions in general going forward, including which players to restructure when they find themselves unexpectedly needing in-season cap space).
The only amount that is relevant to what the Giants might decide on Solder is $10M: $9.9M in non-guaranteed salary for 2021, and $100K in a workout bonus (the conditions of this bonus are unclear this year without OTAs) - note that there is an identically structured $10M to Solder for 2022 as well as a $4M roster bonus that is not included for 2021, but 2022 becomes irrelevant unless the Giants keep Solder for 2021 with his contract entirely as/is. If the Giants release Solder in the immediate future, he receives none of that $10M.
This is also the same amount in play for Solder if he were to retire. He'd be forgoing that $10M (as well as the $14M for 2022, obviously). The only difference between retirement and release is that if Solder retires, the Giants would be able to pursue a repayment of the remaining signing bonus money on Solder's contract - this is the same $10.5M in dead money. It's not automatically credited back to the Giants, and I personally think it's extremely doubtful that NYG would even pursue repayment of the bonus, but the possibility does exist.
But this is effectively the only thing that separates Solder retiring on his own vs. the Giants releasing him, strictly in terms of NS not being on the roster going forward. This is why I feel like fans might be confused when they suggest that Solder is playing this out for some sort of financial gain - aside from not having the remaining unamortized portion of his signing bonus at risk, there is no upside to Solder by declaring that he intends to return.
Which is a really long way of stating that when Solder says he wants to play football in 2021, it's because he wants to play football in 2021. Whether he'll play for less than $10M (and if so, how much less) is unknown, but the only thing the Giants have to negotiate against is what his market value would be right now as a FA, and what the replacement cost would be for a different OT instead. Both of those values are very likely to be much less than $10M.
Solder doesn't have any leverage here, and I don't believe that him saying that he intends to come back has anything to do with him trying to protect his bonus. I think it's genuinely about wanting to try to play football again this season. I hope the Giants avoid too much saccharine sentimentality when it comes to negotiating a paycut with Solder, but whatever amount they ultimately agree on will be because they determined that was the price they're willing to pay him this season, and not at all because of any dead money sunk costs that will remain on our cap this season no matter what happens with Solder going forward.
The only question should be how much is Nate Solder worth in 2021. I’d say $2M, non-guaranteed.
In some of the conversations about what the Giants' options are with Solder, it seems as though some fans are acting as though Solder has some leverage over the Giants because of the cap space (in the form of dead money) that he'll occupy this year even if the Giants cut him (or trade him, but generally the conversation is about cutting him, as that's far more likely than trading his current contract).
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Solder doesn't have any leverage here, and I don't believe that him saying that he intends to come back has anything to do with him trying to protect his bonus. I think it's genuinely about wanting to try to play football again this season. I hope the Giants avoid too much saccharine sentimentality when it comes to negotiating a paycut with Solder, but whatever amount they ultimately agree on will be because they determined that was the price they're willing to pay him this season, and not at all because of any dead money sunk costs that will remain on our cap this season no matter what happens with Solder going forward.
Gatorade, I generally agree with your post but I do feel that Solder has some leverage if his goal is to get out of NY and "start" fresh somewhere else (I doubt he will be a starter anywhere) or play on a team with a better chance of winning, which I think is likely the case.
It's basically the same situation as was the case with Alex Smith in Washington. Solder is still under contract with the Giants and is due a big pay day. By saying he wants to keep playing he is forcing the Giants to either pay him big money or cut him if Solder decides against a restructure.