Dan Graziano
@DanGrazianoESPN
Per source, former Giants offensive line coach Pat Flaherty will return to the organization this year, joining Joe Judge's staff in an advisory role, helping out with the offensive linemen among other duties. Flaherty was on Tom Coughlin's Giants staff from 2004-15.
Did you like the line in 2007?
Heck no. It got bad towards the end because we tried to keep the OL intact far too long, and did not keep drafting good OL.
He was the offensive line coach from 2004-2015. He did a pretty good job helping them win 2 SB’s.
And as long as they are open to it, another set of eyes can be very helpful.
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Wasn't the OL horrible when he was here?
Heck no. It got bad towards the end because we tried to keep the OL intact far too long, and did not keep drafting good OL.
That's not really true. We tried upgrading it. It just never worked out. Beatty was a second round pick. Flowers was a first round pick. Pugh was a first round pick. We drafted the other C whose name I cannot recall right now in the second. Baas was a highly paid FA. Schwartz was paid a lot. Reese tried to restock the OL but EVERY player missed. Not one player was developed. So, Flaherty gets credit for the great OL we had in 2007 and 2008 but he also has to take the credit for everything after.
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Wasn't the OL horrible when he was here?
Heck no. It got bad towards the end because we tried to keep the OL intact far too long, and did not keep drafting good OL.
Yeah that's some selective memory there. They poured a ton of resources into the OL.
I'm not saying Flaherty was to blame, but the common refrain that Reese didnt address the OL is false.
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In comment 15163745 Bill in UT said:
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Wasn't the OL horrible when he was here?
Heck no. It got bad towards the end because we tried to keep the OL intact far too long, and did not keep drafting good OL.
Yeah that's some selective memory there. They poured a ton of resources into the OL.
I'm not saying Flaherty was to blame, but the common refrain that Reese didnt address the OL is false.
Reese didn’t neglect the offensive line. He and his staff were clearly just really bad at evaluating offensive line talent. Which is almost worse than just neglecting the line. If they neglected it and drafted good players at other positions we probably would have won more games.
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In comment 15163745 Bill in UT said:
Quote:
Wasn't the OL horrible when he was here?
Heck no. It got bad towards the end because we tried to keep the OL intact far too long, and did not keep drafting good OL.
Yeah that's some selective memory there. They poured a ton of resources into the OL.
I'm not saying Flaherty was to blame, but the common refrain that Reese didnt address the OL is false.
No selective memory. It's exactly as I stated. We tried to hang onto guys too long, and we drafted for need on the OL and that did NOT pan out. And now here we are.
Flaherty was not impressive here for the most part and didn’t do much in 1 year in Jax. He was hired by Miami and then fired before the season began because Flores wanted to go in a different direction.
Link - ( New Window )
In 2007-2008 and continuing into 2009 at least, the OL wasamong the top units in the league. That's the Diehl, Seubert, O'Hara, Snee and McKenzie line, comprised of one 2nd round pick, a 3rd round pick grabbed as an expensive FA, a 5th rounder and 2 UDFAs. Flaherty molded them into one of the league's best lines.
Reese never drafted for an adequete pipeline of replacements.
You can do some research on it, but Reese ABSOFFFUFFFINGlutely neglected drafting OL in the higher rounds compared with other successful franchises - until after the OL was a total shitshow.
He failed miserably in building a pipeline of OL talent to replace, or even improve upon, guys like Diehl and O'Hara, etc. He seemed to think they were made of iron.
"Former Giants left guard Rich Seubert, who tweeted “best news I’ve heard all day.”
"Former Giants left guard Rich Seubert, who tweeted “best news I’ve heard all day.”
yeah, but we don't know what kind of day he'd had up til then :)
Second 6 years, among draft picks, only Beatty developed under Flaherty. Other draft picks didn’t develop. Undrafted players didn’t develop. Free agents from other teams didn’t work out. Giants changed offensive coordinators to a guy with a scheme that should have made it easier to develop o-line. The last straw was not being able to get anything out of the first round tackle pick.
You can blame Reese for not finding the talent but Flaherty has to take some of the blame too. Maybe he just lucked into the o-line of the first 6 years. Maybe the game has passed him by. In any case, there is no harm in his new role, as he poses no threat to Sale and he may turn out to be great at game prep and objective analysis.
Big year for Judge. No coming in 6-10 again.
Have no idea if this is a good idea or not, hopefully it is. But difficult not to get an air of desperation type feeling with any news regarding the NYG Offensive Line.
I wonder if as an "advisor" if he'll have a role in the scouting and assessment of OL prospects, both in college and NFL FA's. In other words is it possible he'd almost be a "position specialist" helping with the scouting department?
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Wasn't the OL horrible when he was here?
In 2007-2008 and continuing into 2009 at least, the OL wasamong the top units in the league. That's the Diehl, Seubert, O'Hara, Snee and McKenzie line, comprised of one 2nd round pick, a 3rd round pick grabbed as an expensive FA, a 5th rounder and 2 UDFAs. Flaherty molded them into one of the league's best lines.
Reese never drafted for an adequete pipeline of replacements.
He tried to draft but it was not enough and then he the Giants had two bad breaks. Beatty was at least solid and then the injuries hit him and Pugh was injured almost from the get go. So it was a a problem on two folds. Holding on to that good line and trying to hold them together with duct tape (as their performance dived) and overly priced for performance and then not drafting enough (both numbers and quality).
This was the big problem. While a great Giant they should have cut ties a year or two sooner. All those players from that good line stayed till they fell apart one by one and they were at top of the pay scale and not performing at previous levels. I actually blamed TC partially for this.....too much loyalty.
Agreed, I for one am certainly desperate for them to get their line squared away...
From a sentitmental perspective any move further entrenching the Diehl's, O'Hara's and Suebert's of the world into and a tie to TC as well is helpful.
those lines were better than the ones we've put out the last 5 years.
i like the hire.
He tried to draft but it was not enough and then he the Giants had two bad breaks. Beatty was at least solid and then the injuries hit him and Pugh was injured almost from the get go. So it was a a problem on two folds. Holding on to that good line and trying to hold them together with duct tape (as their performance dived) and overly priced for performance and then not drafting enough (both numbers and quality).
I don't think we really disagree LOS. But I examined Reese's first 6 years or so as GM, and Beatty, a late 2nd round pick, who had some ? about his toughness and love for or devotion to the game was the ONLY pick higher than a 4th round pick (for Brewer?) in that time span.
It's not simply "bad luck" when you aren't drafting OL with higher level picks to start out. And Reese had a historically low % of high draft picks (3rd round or higher) spent on OL than any other quality club over his initial 6 or 7 years as GM.
Giants had a lot of money invested in the OL and were not getting elite performance. Really this was a problem on both the lines but more so in the OL. Every year I like to see 2-4 OL added via draft/Ufa. I think it is bad team building signing a entire OL to second and third contracts which the Giants unfortunately did.
Not April 1st.
Besides, aren't fools days jokes a banable offense? :)
I don't think that Guggs did such a great job after he took over last season -- at least it was not evident that he did.
The massive injuries destroyed a good deal of Reese's drafts, but he also failed to anticipate Snee and Diehl breaking down before their time.
2 first round picks (including a top 10) and a 2nd round pick absolutely addressed the offensive line; those picks were just bad picks.
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He retired early.
It was too late. After winning the SB in 2011 with a patchwork group on the OL and having Eli overcome an big beating in San Fran what did they do:
Wilson, Randle, Hosley, Robinson, Mosley, McCants and Kuhn
Should have drafted two OL in the first 3 rounds and still added more later. They got too cute and added a scat back, WR where they already had two elite ones and a measurables TE.
The massive injuries destroyed a good deal of Reese's drafts, but he also failed to anticipate Snee and Diehl breaking down before their time.
2 first round picks (including a top 10) and a 2nd round pick absolutely addressed the offensive line; those picks were just bad picks.
Hindsight is 2020, but we need to remember that the franchise was constantly chasing a window of contention.
I don't think anyone, TC, Gilbride, or the front office did a good job of recognizing that the OL was withering away until Snee retired. Which is strange because his decline was not quiet.