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NYG allocates the 7th most cap space to offense in NFL

Sean : 3/2/2021 8:22 am
I’m not someone who continuously slams Gettleman, but this is indefensible. The amount of recent draft picks and FA signings which have gone towards the offense should suggest much better production.

This makes me nervous as we head into FA where it is clear that DG & company will be addressing the offense, again.
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RE: hmm...  
Go Terps : 3/2/2021 1:40 pm : link
In comment 15164903 Brown_Hornet said:
Quote:
...maybe, if y'all beat that fucking horse until it's a pool of pus, the Offense will get better?


What about complaining about the complaining? Will that make the offense better?
Terps...  
Brown_Hornet : 3/2/2021 1:45 pm : link
...you know the rules, NO POLITICS!

RE: hmm...  
Ten Ton Hammer : 3/2/2021 2:39 pm : link
In comment 15164903 Brown_Hornet said:
Quote:
...maybe, if y'all beat that fucking horse until it's a pool of pus, the Offense will get better?


Hey, it can't be much worse!
RE: Totally agreed  
bw in dc : 3/2/2021 2:51 pm : link
In comment 15164900 Dnew15 said:
Quote:
BW...

That's why I find it so interesting that the one dude that does make plays - LW - you want to get rid of....


LW does make plays. Just not enough to pay him $20M+ annually....

I loathe the cap model, but it's the system and it requires smarter planning and management than Gentleman has shown.

JFC, he's been a disaster...
Hate the salary cap  
Ten Ton Hammer : 3/2/2021 2:54 pm : link
as well.
7th most  
SomeFan : 3/2/2021 3:15 pm : link
and bottom 5 in NFL - There is a cost/benefit mathematical formula in here somewhere to rank cost.
RE: .....this whole thread is pointless  
djm : 3/2/2021 3:37 pm : link
In comment 15164732 George from PA said:
Quote:
The truth is that this is a slice in a point in time...... basically irrelevant.

WFT....is in lowest grouping!....but they need to sign a QB.

I suspect everyone will be around the same....when the cap matters

We need real news, badly.


You aint kidding. I guess we don't discuss the amount of long term BIG contracts on this offense? How many?

NONE. NOT ONE...unless you count that Whopper that Shepard is earning. Except it isn't a whopper. Same with ...NO ONE ELSE!
At this point, you must just be doing these bad salary cap takes  
Jimmy Googs : 3/2/2021 3:41 pm : link
on purpose, right?



for all this hate directed towards the cap  
djm : 3/2/2021 3:44 pm : link
and FA and contracts, I would like to remind everyone that pro sports have never been more corruption free. Never been less prone to tanking or less prone to the game itself being compromised. Players don't cheat because the money they are risking is too great. Players don't quit because the contracts are barely guaranteed. FA is necessary whether anyone wants to admit that or not. It's 2021 not 1921.

The only negative to the contracts and FA and cap? Fans and media alike obsessing over this crap. Objectivuty is lost these days. Players makes X amount of money? Fans lose their shit. The game is fine. The league is fine. The players want it more than they ever wanted it. The teams HAVE to spend now. No more cheap teams.

ONce the fans finally get over the sticker shock mentality and get over that your team is going to spend a lot of money on a FA, and that even if that player doesn't live up to the contract, that doesn't mean the grass was definitely greener on the other side. PLayer B in FA wasn't even coming here. So move on and be content with player A.

Sorry, I should be allowed to cap rant once a week especially when someone says they hate the cap...lol.. ill duck out now.
RE: At this point, you must just be doing these bad salary cap takes  
djm : 3/2/2021 3:45 pm : link
In comment 15165076 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
on purpose, right?




Me? What did I say that was wrong? How many long term contracts are on this offense? The cap is overstated in instances like this. if the Giants had 5-6 whopper long term deals on offense and had the same cap space being displayed I would say they are up against it. They aren't.
it's fucking simple  
djm : 3/2/2021 3:47 pm : link
5 million in space right now but 40 million next year vs 10 million in space right now but only 5 million next year. which are you taking?

Giants are loaded with space. They acted that way last year and will likely go after their guys this year too. They can add the guys they need. Ill be here to say I told you when April rolls around.
IS it indefensible?  
santacruzom : 3/2/2021 3:52 pm : link
Because I'm new to this thread, but I imagine it is quite full of defenses already...
RE: IS it indefensible?  
Go Terps : 3/2/2021 3:56 pm : link
In comment 15165096 santacruzom said:
Quote:
Because I'm new to this thread, but I imagine it is quite full of defenses already...


It really is amazing. How many years of this shit before we can all call it shit? I think I asked that exact question two years ago in disbelief over the constant excuses and rationalizations. Two years on my disbelief remains.
RE: it's fucking simple  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/2/2021 4:01 pm : link
In comment 15165084 djm said:
Quote:
5 million in space right now but 40 million next year vs 10 million in space right now but only 5 million next year. which are you taking?

Giants are loaded with space. They acted that way last year and will likely go after their guys this year too. They can add the guys they need. Ill be here to say I told you when April rolls around.

Why do you insist on confirming how little you understand about the cap on every single thread that it comes up?
RE: Lions hoped Hockenson  
santacruzom : 3/2/2021 4:02 pm : link
In comment 15164775 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
would be a Gronkowski type. He's nowhere near the level of receiving threat that Gronk was in his prime.


Sure, but can't we apply your usual mindset and declare that he's still a young player and -- given his production to date -- he's likely to be come elite?
You know what makes zero sense to me  
NoGainDayne : 3/2/2021 4:11 pm : link
these two thoughts together:

1) Judge is an upper echelon coach

2) DG / Abrams / the Giants front office are serviceable

Now I want to be clear, these statements could prove to be true but as they currently stand one of these statements is overstated.

We've seen plenty of first year coaches have a lot more success than Judge did right out of the gate.

If the roster is so bad that Judge can't fully display his talents it's because the Giants roster construction abilities are behind even "regular bad" teams. When the previous head coach is fired it almost always means the roster is pretty bad. So if Judge is as good as many talk about him and we had the performance we did, it's because our front office is that bad.

I personally think 1 is more true than 2 but what bothers me is how everyone talks about how good the "team" of DG and Judge were this year. It shouldn't be the job of the head coach to make up for deficiencies in the front office. Especially if those deficiencies are the result of ownership wanting to engage in nepotism and pal around with people they like.

Most importantly, to be real about this high level approach... It will be a surprise if this suddenly starts to work again without major changes, it shouldn't be the expectation
RE: RE: Lions hoped Hockenson  
Jimmy Googs : 3/2/2021 4:25 pm : link
In comment 15165116 santacruzom said:
Quote:
In comment 15164775 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


would be a Gronkowski type. He's nowhere near the level of receiving threat that Gronk was in his prime.



Sure, but can't we apply your usual mindset and declare that he's still a young player and -- given his production to date -- he's likely to be come elite?


a laugh from me...
RE: RE: it's fucking simple  
djm : 3/2/2021 4:34 pm : link
In comment 15165114 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15165084 djm said:


Quote:


5 million in space right now but 40 million next year vs 10 million in space right now but only 5 million next year. which are you taking?

Giants are loaded with space. They acted that way last year and will likely go after their guys this year too. They can add the guys they need. Ill be here to say I told you when April rolls around.


Why do you insist on confirming how little you understand about the cap on every single thread that it comes up?


Really now...ok. So you're telling me that a team that has little LONG term cap tied up is in no better shape than a team that does have long term space tied up?

Wow...that's impossible but good to know. Any other nuggets?

Why does it anger some of you when I point out that NY has plenty of space? Oh, wait, never mind, it's a DG thing.

Carry on. Giants have NO space and are fucked. Feel better?
RE: it's fucking simple  
christian : 3/2/2021 4:41 pm : link
In comment 15165084 djm said:
Quote:
Giants are loaded with space. They acted that way last year and will likely go after their guys this year too. They can add the guys they need. Ill be here to say I told you when April rolls around.


If it's so easy to add the guys they need -- why didn't they add the guys they needed on offense last year? Serious question.

The answer is they allocated lots of money to guys like Tate, Zeitler, Shepard, and even the ghost on Nate Solder had a 5.6M cap charge.

The Giants added the incomparable Cam Fleming, Dion Lewis, and Levine Toilolo via free agency last year to the offense. And we all saw how that went.

Fucking crushed it, right?
RE: RE: it's fucking simple  
djm : 3/2/2021 4:41 pm : link
In comment 15165114 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15165084 djm said:


Quote:


5 million in space right now but 40 million next year vs 10 million in space right now but only 5 million next year. which are you taking?

Giants are loaded with space. They acted that way last year and will likely go after their guys this year too. They can add the guys they need. Ill be here to say I told you when April rolls around.


Why do you insist on confirming how little you understand about the cap on every single thread that it comes up?




The Giants have more space than these numbers show. Why? Because they have more space coming in 21-22. That's not made up. That's fact. Now, it's also worth mentioning that NY has some young players coming up for new deals around that time, so they certainly have some decisions to make. I never said anything to the contrary.

I don't act like I know more than anyone. What I do know is you're obsessed with DG bashing and my posts saying the Giants aren't in any cap hell must not jive with your agenda or hatred.

Don't like it? Too fucking bad.
RE: it's fucking simple  
Jimmy Googs : 3/2/2021 4:41 pm : link
In comment 15165084 djm said:
Quote:
5 million in space right now but 40 million next year vs 10 million in space right now but only 5 million next year. which are you taking?

Giants are loaded with space. They acted that way last year and will likely go after their guys this year too. They can add the guys they need. Ill be here to say I told you when April rolls around.


This is usually how it goes...

1) Somebody creates a thread or discussion involving salaries, contracts, cap space or the like.
2) Then you come on and put up about 3 or 4 tirade-laced posts about how stupid this whole salary cap thing is and the NYG can sign anybody/everybody they want because its not real.
3) Then one or two posters argue with you that it is indeed real and you simply don't get it.
4) Ultimately, you cave to some logical statement or simply frustration, tell everybody "sorry, and you will bow out" of any further conversations on the topic.

Can you just cut to the chase on this going forward and get to #4 immediately because as Carly Simon would suggest "I haven't got time for the pain"...



RE: RE: it's fucking simple  
djm : 3/2/2021 4:43 pm : link
In comment 15165158 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 15165084 djm said:


Quote:


Giants are loaded with space. They acted that way last year and will likely go after their guys this year too. They can add the guys they need. Ill be here to say I told you when April rolls around.



If it's so easy to add the guys they need -- why didn't they add the guys they needed on offense last year? Serious question.

The answer is they allocated lots of money to guys like Tate, Zeitler, Shepard, and even the ghost on Nate Solder had a 5.6M cap charge.

The Giants added the incomparable Cam Fleming, Dion Lewis, and Levine Toilolo via free agency last year to the offense. And we all saw how that went.

Fucking crushed it, right?


WHat the hell does this have to do with anything? Who was available last year? Did the Giants try and miss? Was money the reason why they didn't sign some offensive dynamo? Do you know this? Does anyone here?

The Giants spent a boat load last offseason. They had money. And they have money. They will sign players this off-season, likely on the offensive side.

You're moving the goalposts.
RE: RE: RE: it's fucking simple  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/2/2021 4:44 pm : link
In comment 15165151 djm said:
Quote:
In comment 15165114 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 15165084 djm said:


Quote:


5 million in space right now but 40 million next year vs 10 million in space right now but only 5 million next year. which are you taking?

Giants are loaded with space. They acted that way last year and will likely go after their guys this year too. They can add the guys they need. Ill be here to say I told you when April rolls around.


Why do you insist on confirming how little you understand about the cap on every single thread that it comes up?



Really now...ok. So you're telling me that a team that has little LONG term cap tied up is in no better shape than a team that does have long term space tied up?

Wow...that's impossible but good to know. Any other nuggets?

Why does it anger some of you when I point out that NY has plenty of space? Oh, wait, never mind, it's a DG thing.

Carry on. Giants have NO space and are fucked. Feel better?

The cap needs to be managed with a long-term view, but can only be assembled within that season's cap limits. You keep bringing up the lack of long-term obligations as though that's some sort of fucking feather in anyone's cap, but it doesn't do anything for us THIS year.

You can't just cram infinite players in because you have space next year and the year after. You have to fit everyone under the cap each year. You seriously have no idea how detached from reality your posts sound whenever you talk about the cap.

If you want to go toe to toe on intricacies of the cap, I'm happy to do it whenever you'd like.
of course I am going to respond  
djm : 3/2/2021 4:46 pm : link
every fucking day someone laments the lack of space. Every day myself and a few others remind you that the Giants haven't even cut the players they will definitely cut and they have money to move around. They aren't in cap hell despite some of you insisting otherwise. Even without cutting anyone, they have a boat load of money opening up next year.

Why the hell wouldn't I post that? This stat is misleading. If you don't want to be alerted to facts like this why are you here? Oh wait, I know why, it's to stir shit up and find any reason to bash the GM.

RE: RE: RE: RE: it's fucking simple  
djm : 3/2/2021 4:48 pm : link
In comment 15165167 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15165151 djm said:


Quote:


In comment 15165114 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 15165084 djm said:


Quote:


5 million in space right now but 40 million next year vs 10 million in space right now but only 5 million next year. which are you taking?

Giants are loaded with space. They acted that way last year and will likely go after their guys this year too. They can add the guys they need. Ill be here to say I told you when April rolls around.


Why do you insist on confirming how little you understand about the cap on every single thread that it comes up?



Really now...ok. So you're telling me that a team that has little LONG term cap tied up is in no better shape than a team that does have long term space tied up?

Wow...that's impossible but good to know. Any other nuggets?

Why does it anger some of you when I point out that NY has plenty of space? Oh, wait, never mind, it's a DG thing.

Carry on. Giants have NO space and are fucked. Feel better?


The cap needs to be managed with a long-term view, but can only be assembled within that season's cap limits. You keep bringing up the lack of long-term obligations as though that's some sort of fucking feather in anyone's cap, but it doesn't do anything for us THIS year.

You can't just cram infinite players in because you have space next year and the year after. You have to fit everyone under the cap each year. You seriously have no idea how detached from reality your posts sound whenever you talk about the cap.

If you want to go toe to toe on intricacies of the cap, I'm happy to do it whenever you'd like.


What on earth are you even talking about.
...  
christian : 3/2/2021 4:50 pm : link
The Giants actually didn't spend a boatload of money last season. The Giants spent economically on Bradberry, Martinez, Ryan, Gano, and a few other minor additions.

The Giants committed to ~$130M total dollars last offseason.
you're actually saying  
djm : 3/2/2021 4:52 pm : link
that less cap space tied up NEXT year has NO weight on this year?

You're telling me the Giants and MAra aren't more inclined to spend big long term money this year because they don't have that many long term whoppers on the team?

There's cap economics and business economics at play here. Of course the long term books play a part. How could you suggest otherwise?

Yes, I know the Giants overpaid Rhett Elison and eric thomlinson or whatever his name is. Fine. They overpaid. You win.

They still have more space than this OP suggests.
JFC just have your fucking cap pity party  
djm : 3/2/2021 4:53 pm : link
im out.

See you when the Giants sign impact offensive talent in a month or so. Wonder how they pull off the impossible.
RE: JFC just have your fucking cap pity party  
christian : 3/2/2021 4:59 pm : link
In comment 15165184 djm said:
Quote:
im out.

See you when the Giants sign impact offensive talent in a month or so. Wonder how they pull off the impossible.


Dude, no one is saying it's impossible.

But they will have to make substantial moves to allow for the immediate-term reality.

The only year's cap that actually applies -- this year. They can be a billion dollars over next year, and it literally doesn't matter right now.

They do have to fit all of their allocations under this year. They are currently very close if not over that number. They will have to cut and/or re-negotiate contracts. They will allocate substantive dead money to players not on the team because of bad prior deals.

They're going to pull that off by cutting several players -- Tate, Solder, Toilolo, Core and potentially Zetiler.
GD  
djm : 3/2/2021 5:02 pm : link
I never professed or said i wanted to go toe to toe. I don't act like I know every detail with the cap. You do.

Of course you have to fit into every cap figure every year. That's common sense. And you damn well know there are ways to move money around. ways to get under the cap. The less long term money the easier that is. You know what I meant.

NAte Solder's cap hit is huge. IT's also for 1-2 years, 2 tops. That's a factor! Same with Zielter. If those guys were 2-3 years longer in the contract tooth we'd be in a tougher spot right now even if the cap number was the same this season. You can't possibly question that.

Whatever, we've been over this misses from DG. I'm tired and hungry.
djm  
NoGainDayne : 3/2/2021 5:02 pm : link
I don't think anyone is trying to make the Giants cap situation out to be untenable.

I think they have more than enough money where they can win if they allocate it well and hit on their moves.

The problem is when you are talking about the Giants as if they are adept at doing this and we can expect them to deftly navigate the cap.

I think the particular relevance to looking at this thread specifically is how poorly the dollars they allocated to the offense turned out this past year.

Sure, this cap situation is absolutely a situation that a team could create a winner in 2/3 years. But honestly even teams in the worst cap shape can put together a winning team in 2/3 years. It's actually quite easy to just take one season picking in the top 10 as the Giants have had many of and to fix your cap situation in a lasting way.

I think the real question is why would anyone believe that we should have faith in the Giants to allocate resources well?

Seems like you focus on the possible and ignore the probable.
RE: RE: it's fucking simple  
Jimmy Googs : 3/2/2021 5:04 pm : link
In comment 15165161 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 15165084 djm said:


Quote:


5 million in space right now but 40 million next year vs 10 million in space right now but only 5 million next year. which are you taking?

Giants are loaded with space. They acted that way last year and will likely go after their guys this year too. They can add the guys they need. Ill be here to say I told you when April rolls around.



This is usually how it goes...

1) Somebody creates a thread or discussion involving salaries, contracts, cap space or the like.
2) Then you come on and put up about 3 or 4 tirade-laced posts about how stupid this whole salary cap thing is and the NYG can sign anybody/everybody they want because its not real.
3) Then one or two posters argue with you that it is indeed real and you simply don't get it.
4) Ultimately, you cave to some logical statement or simply frustration, tell everybody "sorry, and you will bow out" of any further conversations on the topic.

Can you just cut to the chase on this going forward and get to #4 immediately because as Carly Simon would suggest "I haven't got time for the pain"...




Did you get to #4 yet?
RE: you're actually saying  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/2/2021 5:04 pm : link
In comment 15165182 djm said:
Quote:
that less cap space tied up NEXT year has NO weight on this year?

You're telling me the Giants and MAra aren't more inclined to spend big long term money this year because they don't have that many long term whoppers on the team?

There's cap economics and business economics at play here. Of course the long term books play a part. How could you suggest otherwise?

Yes, I know the Giants overpaid Rhett Elison and eric thomlinson or whatever his name is. Fine. They overpaid. You win.

They still have more space than this OP suggests.

Here we go again with them having more space than what they actually have according to - THE VALID, EXECUTED PLAYER CONTRACTS THAT THEY HAVE ON THE BOOKS FOR 2021.

You sound like a lunatic. Strap on your tin foil hat. Or should I say, your tin foil cap?
sigh..  
djm : 3/2/2021 5:05 pm : link
yes, I know they need to fit into this year's cap figure. Christ guys, cmon. You know exactly what I was saying.

Team A cap space of 10 million but tons open up in 21-22.
Team B cap space of 10 million but tons of problems in 21-22.

Which team LIKELY spends more this off-season or it at least inclined to spend more this off-season if so desired?

That's my point. It's definitely a factor.
dunk  
djm : 3/2/2021 5:07 pm : link
i didn't name call you once. But you really do tend to resort to this shit far too often for my liking.


RE: sigh..  
djm : 3/2/2021 5:08 pm : link
In comment 15165207 djm said:
Quote:
yes, I know they need to fit into this year's cap figure. Christ guys, cmon. You know exactly what I was saying.

Team A cap space of 10 million but tons open up in 21-22.
Team B cap space of 10 million but tons of problems in 21-22.

Which team LIKELY spends more this off-season or it at least inclined to spend more this off-season if so desired?

That's my point. It's definitely a factor.


Hey dunk boy, read this and tell me I am out of touch or wrong. Please. I could use a good laugh.
and one more time there dunky  
djm : 3/2/2021 5:10 pm : link
THE VALID, EXECUTED PLAYER CONTRACTS THAT THEY HAVE ON THE BOOKS FOR 2021.

Never said they didn't have to adhere to a fixed cap. NOT ONE FUCKING TIME.

I said you can get creative ESPECIALLY with less long term cap money on the books. And you know this to be true.

Now, fuck off.
RE: RE: RE: it's fucking simple  
bw in dc : 3/2/2021 5:19 pm : link
In comment 15165160 djm said:
Quote:

The Giants have more space than these numbers show. Why? Because they have more space coming in 21-22. That's not made up. That's fact. Now, it's also worth mentioning that NY has some young players coming up for new deals around that time, so they certainly have some decisions to make. I never said anything to the contrary.

I don't act like I know more than anyone. What I do know is you're obsessed with DG bashing and my posts saying the Giants aren't in any cap hell must not jive with your agenda or hatred.

Don't like it? Too fucking bad.


The Giants are in "organizational hell". And much of that is driven by Gettleman and his:

-- average to below average drafting
-- poor free agent decisions - personnel and contracts
-- "old school" philosophies
-- cap management

Cap space in the out years is unpredictable. We have Barkley coming up. A Jones decision. Perhaps LW if he gets the FT again. Etc.

The best play is always try to pay the right players at the most influential positions and pivot as soon as possible when a situation goes sideways.

But continue to think we live in a "soft cap" and there is "always" more to spend.
I won’t and can’t dispute  
djm : 3/2/2021 5:21 pm : link
That the offense sucks balls despite the cap money devotion. That’s a problem obviously. Hopefully they can improve the O with a FA signing or two.

I wasn’t disputing that 7th in Oncap space isn’t a bad return on investment.

Whatever, I promised I wouldn’t torpedo cap threads anymore so I’m sorry for this. Wasn’t my intention. I said my peace and feel strongly that the lack of future big money is a factor and will be a factor this offseason. Sports writers have absolutely said this as well. Maybe I didn’t convey things correctly.

I’ll take back the fuck off comment to you Gatorade but calling someone a lunatic tends to get one angry. Peace.
Bw  
djm : 3/2/2021 5:22 pm : link
Never said soft cap. Nope.

Read my posts again. Try and read.
...  
christian : 3/2/2021 6:10 pm : link
The immediate and medium term are equally important when managing the cap.

The space they have in 2022/2023 doesn't address the issue -- they are either at or over the likely 2021 salary cap, and they will have to cut or re-structure several players, to retain or add good players.

Most urgently, the Giants are up against the real possibility of franchising tagging Leonard Williams on a 2nd tender, at 19.3M dollars. Real, huge money, all owed this year.

Players will require compensation in 2021. The Giants will need to spend meaningful dollar this year to improve their talent.
RE: ...  
djm : 3/2/2021 6:28 pm : link
In comment 15165262 christian said:
Quote:
The immediate and medium term are equally important when managing the cap.

The space they have in 2022/2023 doesn't address the issue -- they are either at or over the likely 2021 salary cap, and they will have to cut or re-structure several players, to retain or add good players.

Most urgently, the Giants are up against the real possibility of franchising tagging Leonard Williams on a 2nd tender, at 19.3M dollars. Real, huge money, all owed this year.

Players will require compensation in 2021. The Giants will need to spend meaningful dollar this year to improve their talent.


Understood and agreed. And I’ll be cranky if they tag Williams again.

RE: GD  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/2/2021 6:39 pm : link
In comment 15165199 djm said:
Quote:
I never professed or said i wanted to go toe to toe. I don't act like I know every detail with the cap. You do.

Of course you have to fit into every cap figure every year. That's common sense. And you damn well know there are ways to move money around. ways to get under the cap. The less long term money the easier that is. You know what I meant.

NAte Solder's cap hit is huge. IT's also for 1-2 years, 2 tops. That's a factor! Same with Zielter. If those guys were 2-3 years longer in the contract tooth we'd be in a tougher spot right now even if the cap number was the same this season. You can't possibly question that.

Whatever, we've been over this misses from DG. I'm tired and hungry.

Let me give you an example of what happens when teams manage the cap as you suggest.

DG signs Patrick Omameh in 2018 to a 3 year/$15M contract ($5.5M guaranteed), which is no one's idea of a cap-busting contract, but also not an insignificant amount. Omameh so rapidly demonstrates that he is an absolute bust that he doesn't make it through one full season with NYG. Omameh's contract is terminated, and his guaranteed money becomes "dead money" of which $3.3M is charged against the Giants' 2019 cap.

In 2019, DG decides to undergo a dead money purge, clearing out several contracts and playing that season with the 2nd most dead money in the league. Not surprisingly, the Giants are putrid as they trot out a roster that is carrying $55M in dead money instead of using that money on players.

As injuries mount, it becomes clear that DG has taken on more dead money than he can functionally carry in order to maintain the roster and make some late-season personnel transactions. $3.3M of this dead money is attributable to the Omameh contract.

In order to manage the roster in-season and stay under the cap, DG converts salary to bonus for two players whose contracts can absorb such a move: Rhett Ellison and Nate Solder. Both are aging vets and both had underachieved with the Giants, but DG didn't have many options. This frees up $6M in space for 2019, but results in Ellison's 2020 cap hit increasing by $1M, and Solder's hit in 2020 and 2021 increasing by $2.5M each (when Solder opted out for 2020, this moved to 2021 and 2022). At least one (if not both) of these restructures would not have been necessary if the Giants were not carrying dead money from Omameh in 2019.

Rhett Ellison retired after the 2019 season, shifting his remaining bonus (including the newly restructured amount) to dead money for 2020. The Giants carried a $2.2M cap hit for Ellison last season, with $1M of it due to his 2019 restructure. This money, had it not been charged as dead money in 2020, would have rolled over as available cap space for 2021.

Now we approach free agency for 2021, faced with the challenge to re-sign Leonard Williams, but armed with $3.5M less in cap room this offseason (-$1M for the Ellison dead money hit that would have rolled over into 2021, -$2.5M for the higher cap hit that Solder is carrying now because of his 2019 restructure), and must navigate the salary cap in such a way that they can operate effectively to improve their roster for the upcoming season. In order to free up additional money that they can use to sign free agents, they may need to restructure someone like Zeitler, who is also an aging veteran, just like Ellison and Solder were - this will likely decrease cap space in 2022.

As an indirect result of a bad signing in 2018 (Omameh), we are continuing to kick cap obligations into the future and borrow against future years in order to operate. This is the salary cap equivalent of living paycheck to paycheck and using your credit cards to manage unforeseen circumstances.

In every thread that involves the cap, you claim that the Giants can always create room if they need it, and that's true, but it results in less cap room in that future year, and increased dead money liability (especially since the contracts that are typically restructured to create space are older veterans who have high salaries to begin with). A year from now, if Zeitler's play falls off a cliff or if he chooses to retire (neither one of those possibilities being completely remote), the Giants will incur however much dead money in an amount equal to whatever they open up to operate this offseason.

Hopefully, this example helps illustrate for you that not only is it risky to always be borrowing from future years in order to create cap space, but that signing bad players, even those who receive moderate contracts (like Omameh) can have downstream implications that drag on your salary cap for multiple years.
RE: RE: ...  
christian : 3/2/2021 6:42 pm : link
In comment 15165275 djm said:
Quote:
In comment 15165262 christian said:


Quote:


The immediate and medium term are equally important when managing the cap.

The space they have in 2022/2023 doesn't address the issue -- they are either at or over the likely 2021 salary cap, and they will have to cut or re-structure several players, to retain or add good players.

Most urgently, the Giants are up against the real possibility of franchising tagging Leonard Williams on a 2nd tender, at 19.3M dollars. Real, huge money, all owed this year.

Players will require compensation in 2021. The Giants will need to spend meaningful dollar this year to improve their talent.



Understood and agreed. And I’ll be cranky if they tag Williams again.


I'm actually quite bullish on this offseason. The Giants were able to add 4 pretty good players on longterm deals last year -- Bradberry, Martinez, Ryan, and Gano -- with a total 2020 cap hit of 30M.

They should be able to replicate the same kind of talent retention/acquisition.

I think with some cuts, they'll be able to retain one of their defensive tackles, add a good interior offensive lineman, a quality WR, and a blocking TE.
eh  
Bill2 : 3/2/2021 6:59 pm : link
1) Nobody here knows enough about the desires or contract revision options the NYG have regarding the players and their contracts.

2) Nor how willing they are to let some people go

3) Nor which players have higher risk of physical degradation or breakdown but the NYG do not wish to share that information.

4) Nor what they suspect other teams will do either tagging/renegotiating or letting their players go.

We do know five things:

A) All GMs and all teams and all fans of their teams have 4-10 guys they think are overpaid relative to performance at this time. 100% of all GM's, fans and teams. Every year.

B) All Fans of all teams cannot know what options their were or are.

C) Last year many of the new NYG contracts were shorter than the past and limited risk in the out years if a player had to be released. Better contract practices for more (but im sure not all) of the contracts.

D) All fans get mad when a player used to be worth it but wasn't on the last play.

E) Optimists will be optimistic dreamers stuck on flashes and factoids and guys who want to rummage in buckets of old fish will insist brand new fish buckets will be just like the past buckets of old fish.

Both will be right 50% of the time in a league where every line and RB play is the equivalent damage to the bodies as being in a 35mph car crash, the average career is 4 years, 50% of selections dont get to play more than partially in a year and the ten year average winning percentage of 32 teams is 50%.

Like many an internet discussion, it thrives because no one knows and everyone has what looks like a counterfactual debating point.

This dead zone in the calendar of football fodder is boring and frustrating for us all.
GD  
ryanmkeane : 3/2/2021 7:20 pm : link
I get your thinking - but Patrick Omameh has nothing to do with the Giants being in good cap space or bad cap space. He didn’t cost much, it didn’t cost much to let him go, and he never affected the Giants ability to sign or not sign a player they wanted.

Omameh sucked as a player, but to say the signing was somehow a cap horror show would be a massive massive stretch.

We aren’t going to not sign Leonard Williams based on having 1-4M dollars of space. They will be able to move stuff around if need be.

This isn’t the NBA - teams can create space however they need to. Now - if we had a bunch of contracts like Solder that would be one thing. But we don’t. We have 1 contract like that.
Terps  
ryanmkeane : 3/2/2021 7:23 pm : link
sure, Hockenson could become elite. Depends on how hard he wants to work at it but I think he’s pretty limited athletically. What exactly are you trying to say? How does this relate to anything on the Giants? I never said Daniel Jones or Andrew Thomas are going to become elite. I think they will be very good players for us.

Saquon Barkley is an elite player when healthy, we’ve seen it. I’m not sure what you are getting at.

...  
ryanmkeane : 3/2/2021 7:25 pm : link
Thomas could become elite based on his skill set. We will see what happens. If I had to guess, he will be a pro bowl caliber starter for us for a long time. Is he going to be a top 5 LT? Maybe. Based on the second half of the year I wouldn’t bet against it. He had a really rough start though.
RE: RE: GD  
djm : 3/2/2021 8:31 pm : link
In comment 15165279 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15165199 djm said:


Quote:


I never professed or said i wanted to go toe to toe. I don't act like I know every detail with the cap. You do.

Of course you have to fit into every cap figure every year. That's common sense. And you damn well know there are ways to move money around. ways to get under the cap. The less long term money the easier that is. You know what I meant.

NAte Solder's cap hit is huge. IT's also for 1-2 years, 2 tops. That's a factor! Same with Zielter. If those guys were 2-3 years longer in the contract tooth we'd be in a tougher spot right now even if the cap number was the same this season. You can't possibly question that.

Whatever, we've been over this misses from DG. I'm tired and hungry.


Let me give you an example of what happens when teams manage the cap as you suggest.

DG signs Patrick Omameh in 2018 to a 3 year/$15M contract ($5.5M guaranteed), which is no one's idea of a cap-busting contract, but also not an insignificant amount. Omameh so rapidly demonstrates that he is an absolute bust that he doesn't make it through one full season with NYG. Omameh's contract is terminated, and his guaranteed money becomes "dead money" of which $3.3M is charged against the Giants' 2019 cap.

In 2019, DG decides to undergo a dead money purge, clearing out several contracts and playing that season with the 2nd most dead money in the league. Not surprisingly, the Giants are putrid as they trot out a roster that is carrying $55M in dead money instead of using that money on players.

As injuries mount, it becomes clear that DG has taken on more dead money than he can functionally carry in order to maintain the roster and make some late-season personnel transactions. $3.3M of this dead money is attributable to the Omameh contract.

In order to manage the roster in-season and stay under the cap, DG converts salary to bonus for two players whose contracts can absorb such a move: Rhett Ellison and Nate Solder. Both are aging vets and both had underachieved with the Giants, but DG didn't have many options. This frees up $6M in space for 2019, but results in Ellison's 2020 cap hit increasing by $1M, and Solder's hit in 2020 and 2021 increasing by $2.5M each (when Solder opted out for 2020, this moved to 2021 and 2022). At least one (if not both) of these restructures would not have been necessary if the Giants were not carrying dead money from Omameh in 2019.

Rhett Ellison retired after the 2019 season, shifting his remaining bonus (including the newly restructured amount) to dead money for 2020. The Giants carried a $2.2M cap hit for Ellison last season, with $1M of it due to his 2019 restructure. This money, had it not been charged as dead money in 2020, would have rolled over as available cap space for 2021.

Now we approach free agency for 2021, faced with the challenge to re-sign Leonard Williams, but armed with $3.5M less in cap room this offseason (-$1M for the Ellison dead money hit that would have rolled over into 2021, -$2.5M for the higher cap hit that Solder is carrying now because of his 2019 restructure), and must navigate the salary cap in such a way that they can operate effectively to improve their roster for the upcoming season. In order to free up additional money that they can use to sign free agents, they may need to restructure someone like Zeitler, who is also an aging veteran, just like Ellison and Solder were - this will likely decrease cap space in 2022.

As an indirect result of a bad signing in 2018 (Omameh), we are continuing to kick cap obligations into the future and borrow against future years in order to operate. This is the salary cap equivalent of living paycheck to paycheck and using your credit cards to manage unforeseen circumstances.

In every thread that involves the cap, you claim that the Giants can always create room if they need it, and that's true, but it results in less cap room in that future year, and increased dead money liability (especially since the contracts that are typically restructured to create space are older veterans who have high salaries to begin with). A year from now, if Zeitler's play falls off a cliff or if he chooses to retire (neither one of those possibilities being completely remote), the Giants will incur however much dead money in an amount equal to whatever they open up to operate this offseason.

Hopefully, this example helps illustrate for you that not only is it risky to always be borrowing from future years in order to create cap space, but that signing bad players, even those who receive moderate contracts (like Omameh) can have downstream implications that drag on your salary cap for multiple years.


Appreciate the point. I don’t disagree with any of this.

Really in the end we need to hit more drafts. It always goes back to this. Better drafts means less desperation. Overall I do think the giants have been better if even slightly at bringing in young talent the last few years, be it the draft and udfa. Hopefully it wasn’t a mirage and it continues.
RE: Terps  
Go Terps : 3/2/2021 8:35 pm : link
In comment 15165304 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
sure, Hockenson could become elite. Depends on how hard he wants to work at it but I think he’s pretty limited athletically. What exactly are you trying to say? How does this relate to anything on the Giants? I never said Daniel Jones or Andrew Thomas are going to become elite. I think they will be very good players for us.

Saquon Barkley is an elite player when healthy, we’ve seen it. I’m not sure what you are getting at.


FMIC brought up Hockenson because I wanted to draft him at the 6 spot in 2019. Instead we took Jones.
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