I’m not someone who continuously slams Gettleman, but this is indefensible. The amount of recent draft picks and FA signings which have gone towards the offense should suggest much better production.
This makes me nervous as we head into FA where it is clear that DG & company will be addressing the offense, again.
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But overall, your premise is correct.
Those fat Solder & Tate contracts have been a disaster. I hope those mistakes aren’t repeated in a few weeks.
Not to mention Barkley’s contract
It’s not the overall spend, it’s where and how you spend.
Objectively, measurably, the offense is terrible and not only includes the above noted FA contracts, which many here panned in real time, but also three top ten draft choices, which many here also panned irt. All these picks, all the money, and yet, the offense is horrible. Lets not forget, the offense isn’t just pathetic in terms of production, but Garrett is also a throw back coach who doesn’t appear to embrace many of the modern NFL concepts. And Getty boasts about his affinity for building a run first team. Maybe he’s right and the path to victory is on the back of Barks. And maybe DG defenders are right and this is all going to turn around this year. I hope so! But I don’t think so.
Objectively, measurably, the offense is terrible and not only includes the above noted FA contracts, which many here panned in real time, but also three top ten draft choices, which many here also panned irt. All these picks, all the money, and yet, the offense is horrible. Lets not forget, the offense isn’t just pathetic in terms of production, but Garrett is also a throw back coach who doesn’t appear to embrace many of the modern NFL concepts. And Getty boasts about his affinity for building a run first team. Maybe he’s right and the path to victory is on the back of Barks. And maybe DG defenders are right and this is all going to turn around this year. I hope so! But I don’t think so.
Not sure if i'm part of that club or not but regardless of who the GM is I don't really feel the need to come on every single thread and repeat the same criticisms over and over. That's not a defense, I simply don't enjoy it, i've read and heard it all several hundred times over by now. I'm willing to bet plenty of others fall into this category with a select few actually defending him tooth and nail.
His tenure hasn't been ideal but I'm hopeful that Judge's continued influence will tip the scales into getting players he specifically wants. They seem to work well together.
It’s not the overall spend, it’s where and how you spend.
The Saints? Kamara just signed a 5 yr/$75M extension. Their 2020 # just looks low because of the contract structure. But Kamara's cap hits starting 2022: $14.5M, $14M, $14.8M, $25M.
It’s not the overall spend, it’s where and how you spend.
Golden Tate's cap hit is a hair over Barkley for 2021 - goes to show how inflated WR contracts are. You can argue picking Barkley until you are blue in the face, he or his cost isn't preventing us from being better. Tate sucking, Shepard not playing, Solder sucking and not playing, the OL as a whole not playing decent football until the 2H of 2020, and Jones growing pains + injury are the real issues.
If 50% of the things I listed went from failure to average we'd be a playoff team in all likelihood.
1. Most cuts haven't been made (Tate alone drops them several spots)
2. FAs haven't been signed
3. Draft hasn't occurred (1st round picks can be significant)
4. The chart lacks context. Most rosters are close to the max now, but how much is camp fodder vs legit final 53 players? If you have 40 offensive guys, but 30 of them are minimum salary guys (missing starters and/or depth) its going to be a significant difference compared to a team with most starters/depth in place.
Seems like that would be up for debate.
1. Most cuts haven't been made (Tate alone drops them several spots)
2. FAs haven't been signed
3. Draft hasn't occurred (1st round picks can be significant)
4. The chart lacks context. Most rosters are close to the max now, but how much is camp fodder vs legit final 53 players? If you have 40 offensive guys, but 30 of them are minimum salary guys (missing starters and/or depth) its going to be a significant difference compared to a team with most starters/depth in place.
Ok . Your departure points are accurate . However let’s not lose sight of the fact that the Giants had the second worst offense in the league last season against an offensively unbalanced cap allocation . It’s an indictment, one that should have resulted in termination. It was an easy call.
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It's March 2nd, these #s are meaningless since:
1. Most cuts haven't been made (Tate alone drops them several spots)
2. FAs haven't been signed
3. Draft hasn't occurred (1st round picks can be significant)
4. The chart lacks context. Most rosters are close to the max now, but how much is camp fodder vs legit final 53 players? If you have 40 offensive guys, but 30 of them are minimum salary guys (missing starters and/or depth) its going to be a significant difference compared to a team with most starters/depth in place.
Ok . Your departure points are accurate . However let’s not lose sight of the fact that the Giants had the second worst offense in the league last season against an offensively unbalanced cap allocation . It’s an indictment, one that should have resulted in termination. It was an easy call.
The OP is about 2021 allocation. The Giants were 17th in offensive spending for 2020 (if I counted correctly). They allocated $89M to the offense and $76M to the D.
Then The Perfect Storm: the loss of saquon Barkley; no preseason for an offensive line that had never played together before; a new coaching Steph and scheme and the debulitating and changing drops of Evan.
In spite of that, they won five of their last eight games. As far as I'm concerned a franchise quarterback is in place and the offensive line has three very solid pieces. Barkley has to be turn and be effective and they have to find a play maker on the outside. They'd need a full camp together, that all seems doable.
Gates for nothing, Darius Slayton for a fifth, the potential of Matt Peart in the third. Show me more for less. Jones, Barclay and Andrew the precious pics, the same precious pics that produce a high rate of busts across the league.
The need driven carping acquires legitimacy if they don't produce next year, until then it has the impact and efficacy of flatulence in a hurricane.
It’s not the overall spend, it’s where and how you spend.
Seems like that would be up for debate.
Sure, you can say any player on this offense is preventing more wins, but we know he can produce when on the field, the others have been a roller coaster, some mostly bad. My point was in order of importance Barkley hasn't prevented us from upgrading the offense - we've spent money and other high picks and most of them haven't worked out well. Wouldn't you say that's a bigger issue than 1 player who's actually producing when he's playing?
But it's pretty startling how bad the offense is with the amount of resources allocated the last 3 years.
The presumptive offensive line based on resources should be Solder, Hernandez, Gates, Zeitler, Thomas.
Top 5 paid tackle, 2nd round guard, UDFA center, top 5 paid guard, 1st round tackle. And that might be the worst option right now.
But it's pretty startling how bad the offense is with the amount of resources allocated the last 3 years.
The presumptive offensive line based on resources should be Solder, Hernandez, Gates, Zeitler, Thomas.
Top 5 paid tackle, 2nd round guard, UDFA center, top 5 paid guard, 1st round tackle. And that might be the worst option right now.
The Giants haven't paid Zeitler as a top 5 OG. They've paid him $20M over 2 years (including $2.5M in bonus for 2021) and if he plays 2021 at $12M it would be $32M over 3 seasons.
$10.6M per year would be 8th among RGs and 13th among all OGs.
For that matter, Solder is no longer top 5 LT though at least with him the point is valid (massively overpaid given his production).
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as a rookie RB picked so high in the draft, the time he has missed due to injury and the replacement dollars spent on other backs aren't preventing the Giants from being better?
Seems like that would be up for debate.
Sure, you can say any player on this offense is preventing more wins, but we know he can produce when on the field, the others have been a roller coaster, some mostly bad. My point was in order of importance Barkley hasn't prevented us from upgrading the offense - we've spent money and other high picks and most of them haven't worked out well. Wouldn't you say that's a bigger issue than 1 player who's actually producing when he's playing?
Nobody else on this offense was drafted overall #2, and certainly nobody that high is missing as many games.
And not sure pointing to other players playing poorly is a compelling reason to suggest picking a RB at overall #2 isn't a questionable choice to upgrading the offense. NYG could have allocated their pick and dollar values on other positions or better players at the positions they ultimately wound up with, or simply drafted differently with #2.
Besides this year he's going to sign both FA DTs to contracts the Giants can work with and then be really smart with FA and sign under the radar up and coming players to bargain contracts who will turn into 2 or 3 immediate impact players and make great trade back in the draft trades to accumulate more assets which he's going to turn into 2 or 3 immediate impact players and all will be wonderful.
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It's March 2nd, these #s are meaningless since:
1. Most cuts haven't been made (Tate alone drops them several spots)
2. FAs haven't been signed
3. Draft hasn't occurred (1st round picks can be significant)
4. The chart lacks context. Most rosters are close to the max now, but how much is camp fodder vs legit final 53 players? If you have 40 offensive guys, but 30 of them are minimum salary guys (missing starters and/or depth) its going to be a significant difference compared to a team with most starters/depth in place.
Ok . Your departure points are accurate . However let’s not lose sight of the fact that the Giants had the second worst offense in the league last season against an offensively unbalanced cap allocation . It’s an indictment, one that should have resulted in termination. It was an easy call.
Using your logic, since the defense outperformed expectations while underfunded, DG should get promoted to minority owner/VP. Works both ways.
Cool everyone jets.....
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In comment 15164599 chick310 said:
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as a rookie RB picked so high in the draft, the time he has missed due to injury and the replacement dollars spent on other backs aren't preventing the Giants from being better?
Seems like that would be up for debate.
Sure, you can say any player on this offense is preventing more wins, but we know he can produce when on the field, the others have been a roller coaster, some mostly bad. My point was in order of importance Barkley hasn't prevented us from upgrading the offense - we've spent money and other high picks and most of them haven't worked out well. Wouldn't you say that's a bigger issue than 1 player who's actually producing when he's playing?
Nobody else on this offense was drafted overall #2, and certainly nobody that high is missing as many games.
And not sure pointing to other players playing poorly is a compelling reason to suggest picking a RB at overall #2 isn't a questionable choice to upgrading the offense. NYG could have allocated their pick and dollar values on other positions or better players at the positions they ultimately wound up with, or simply drafted differently with #2.
You are making a different argument. I said already if you want to argue drafting him some more, go nuts, but I won't be participating.
I responded to the cap allocation and siting RB, but it hasn't prevented us from spending big time picks on the OL, spending money on the OL, and spending money at WR. Much of that hasn't worked out - if it has, even a couple of the players, we'd be in a lot better shape.
These three years have been catastrophic.
The problem is the Giants are in a similar position today. Tate is gone and Solder and Zeitler will likely either be restructured or cut, creating some cap space. DG has a mandate to make this team competitive this year or he's gone. My guess is the Giants are going to do whatever it takes to get a #1 WR in FA and will look to draft another in the first round.
Poor pick and dollar allocations is indeed preventing the Giants from doing things they otherwise would this free agent period. It is talked about every day on this site as of late.
Poor pick and dollar allocations is indeed preventing the Giants from doing things they otherwise would this free agent period. It is talked about every day on this site as of late.
Of course, but again, my position on this is had Jones, or Tate, or Shepard, or Solder, or Zeitler, or Hernandez or Engram, etc lived up to their draft slot and/or cost, we wouldn't be chasing the roster so heavily in FA.
It’s not the overall spend, it’s where and how you spend.
wut?
Saints just gave Kamara a massive contract
KC drafted a RB in the first round
Indy drafted Taylor in the 1st half of the 2nd round
As always you try to cherry pick a stat to fit your narrative and then fall flat on your face.
the secondary is a second example. the team has poured countless resources in the draft to fix the CB position and they have next to nothing to show for it. baker, beal, ballentine, love. all suck or were terds. and here we are this offseason with CB as a major need.
these are premium positions that the team has used premium resources on trying to fill and they have failed miserably. and that's on the GM
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you draft high and the ones that need to be addressed via free agency. They both contribute to cap consequences. There is also the plain and simple supply argument by position.
Poor pick and dollar allocations is indeed preventing the Giants from doing things they otherwise would this free agent period. It is talked about every day on this site as of late.
Of course, but again, my position on this is had Jones, or Tate, or Shepard, or Solder, or Zeitler, or Hernandez or Engram, etc lived up to their draft slot and/or cost, we wouldn't be chasing the roster so heavily in FA.
So if everybody else on the Offense just played better than picking Barkley would have been fine. The Giants could have absorbed this poor decision.
I agree.
I responded to the cap allocation and siting RB, but it hasn't prevented us from spending big time picks on the OL, spending money on the OL, and spending money at WR. Much of that hasn't worked out - if it has, even a couple of the players, we'd be in a lot better shape.
There's a $14M difference between the team spending the most on RB and the least. By far the smallest differential of the offensive positional groups with TE 2nd ($14.5M) and the only close:
QB: $45M
RB: $14M (1-2 starters, 4-5 roster spots)
WR: $33M (2-3 starters, 5-6 roster spots)
TE: $17M (1-2 starters, 3 roster spots)
OL: $36M (5 starters, 8 roster spots)
And more importantly, here's the % of cap the 1st/last team in each positional spending group allocates (uses 2020 cap of $198M):
QB: 23.7% / 1.1%
RB: 8.2% / 1.2%
WR: 18.7% / 2.5%
TE: 10% / 1.2%
OL: 26.8% / 8.6%
These three years have been catastrophic.
Do you have any idea on how the draft works?
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In comment 15164650 chick310 said:
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you draft high and the ones that need to be addressed via free agency. They both contribute to cap consequences. There is also the plain and simple supply argument by position.
Poor pick and dollar allocations is indeed preventing the Giants from doing things they otherwise would this free agent period. It is talked about every day on this site as of late.
Of course, but again, my position on this is had Jones, or Tate, or Shepard, or Solder, or Zeitler, or Hernandez or Engram, etc lived up to their draft slot and/or cost, we wouldn't be chasing the roster so heavily in FA.
So if everybody else on the Offense just played better than picking Barkley would have been fine. The Giants could have absorbed this poor decision.
I agree.
Yeah that’s typically how teams work, their investments work out FA not working out.
I’m not going back 4 years and using that as the line in the sand of why we stink. We spent plenty of picks and money since then but I guess it makes complete sense to go right back to Barkley. It’s an agenda at this point and it’s very uninteresting. The horse has been beaten several lifetimes over at this point.
1.) N. Solder $16.5 mil
2.) K. Zeitler $14.5 mil
3.) S. Barkley $10 mil
4.) G. Tate $10.8 mil
5.) S. Shepard $9 mil
There's your top 5 cap hits on the offensive side of the ball....which guy there is performing up to his contract?
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It's not just the 15-33; there's also very little to reasonably expect going forward. The roster is still poor and nowhere near serious contention.
These three years have been catastrophic.
Do you have any idea on how the draft works?
I do. The Giants don't seem to.
Call me crazy but let's just give it slightly more time with these guys.
Call me crazy but let's just give it slightly more time with these guys.
Faith-based is one way to go about it. If that's what works for you, that's great.
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our left tackle just turned 22. QB is turning 24 in May. RB (who was one of the best offensive players in football until he tore his knee) is 24.
Call me crazy but let's just give it slightly more time with these guys.
Faith-based is one way to go about it. If that's what works for you, that's great.
Considering drafting is based on potential and not your very first year in the NFL (like Thomas) or 2nd (like Jones) - and the history of NFL draft picks especially quarterbacks needing time - yes - that works for me.
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of the Giants vs other good teams like Tampa, Green Bay, KC, Indy, Saints, etc.
It’s not the overall spend, it’s where and how you spend.
The Saints? Kamara just signed a 5 yr/$75M extension. Their 2020 # just looks low because of the contract structure. But Kamara's cap hits starting 2022: $14.5M, $14M, $14.8M, $25M.
That's fair. But with all of the Saints cap issue - $100M over the cap - I have to imagine they reconfigure that number for AK.
But I didn't mind the Saints re-signing AK at the time. Their SB window was still open and they went all in. AK is a GREAT all-around player who is a scoring machine. So I think that move was an outlier for RBs than I would normally take on RBs...
Yeah, here we go again...posters telling us to believe the arrow is pointing up for no reason at all.
In the real world the Giants are a train wreck until proven otherwise. If you want to believe they aren't that's fine, but don't expect others to believe it.
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of the Giants vs other good teams like Tampa, Green Bay, KC, Indy, Saints, etc.
It’s not the overall spend, it’s where and how you spend.
Golden Tate's cap hit is a hair over Barkley for 2021 - goes to show how inflated WR contracts are. You can argue picking Barkley until you are blue in the face, he or his cost isn't preventing us from being better. Tate sucking, Shepard not playing, Solder sucking and not playing, the OL as a whole not playing decent football until the 2H of 2020, and Jones growing pains + injury are the real issues.
If 50% of the things I listed went from failure to average we'd be a playoff team in all likelihood.
I agree that there were mishits by DG all over the offense. And I wasn't suggesting our RB costs were the only issue. It just jumped out at me our RB costs vis-a-vis other better organizations...
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In comment 15164646 Go Terps said:
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It's not just the 15-33; there's also very little to reasonably expect going forward. The roster is still poor and nowhere near serious contention.
These three years have been catastrophic.
Do you have any idea on how the draft works?
I do. The Giants don't seem to.
A guy who advocated the team to draft TJ Hockenson really shouldn't be patting himself on the back regarding draft prowess.
$10.6M per year would be 8th among RGs and 13th among all OGs.
For that matter, Solder is no longer top 5 LT though at least with him the point is valid (massively overpaid given his production).
I'm talking this year -- Zetiler has the 4th highest cap hit of any guard, and apologies on Solder, he'll have the 6th.
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In comment 15164651 UConn4523 said:
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In comment 15164650 chick310 said:
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you draft high and the ones that need to be addressed via free agency. They both contribute to cap consequences. There is also the plain and simple supply argument by position.
Poor pick and dollar allocations is indeed preventing the Giants from doing things they otherwise would this free agent period. It is talked about every day on this site as of late.
Of course, but again, my position on this is had Jones, or Tate, or Shepard, or Solder, or Zeitler, or Hernandez or Engram, etc lived up to their draft slot and/or cost, we wouldn't be chasing the roster so heavily in FA.
So if everybody else on the Offense just played better than picking Barkley would have been fine. The Giants could have absorbed this poor decision.
I agree.
Yeah that’s typically how teams work, their investments work out FA not working out.
I’m not going back 4 years and using that as the line in the sand of why we stink.
Of course there are many reasons why the team struggles. But this is one of them and its significant.
And the only reason we are talking about it on this thread is because you used at kind of as a line in the sand as to say it has nothing to do with why they stink. I happen to think that is of debate and said why.
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of the Giants vs other good teams like Tampa, Green Bay, KC, Indy, Saints, etc.
It’s not the overall spend, it’s where and how you spend.
wut?
Saints just gave Kamara a massive contract
KC drafted a RB in the first round
Indy drafted Taylor in the 1st half of the 2nd round
As always you try to cherry pick a stat to fit your narrative and then fall flat on your face.
The Saint signing Kamara made sense because they were a SB contending team. And that's the luxury of being a great team. But remember, Kamara wasn't a first round pick, He was a third round pick.
The Chiefs are/were a SB team stacked. So they could afford a LATE first round pick on a RB. Why that is so hard to comprehend that versus the Giants wasting a high pick on a RB when we were clearly trying to dig out of a big hole and nowhere ready to contend?
And the Colts drafted a RB in the second round. Not the #2 pick in the draft. The second round.
Well played, Sir!
A guy who advocated the team to draft TJ Hockenson really shouldn't be patting himself on the back regarding draft prowess.
Well, Hockenson did make the Pro Bowl this year. He actually had a very good year. FWIW.
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is not the issue of this team. He's literally our most skilled player, by a million. Him being on the team and healthy and being close to old form will make us a way better team than we are as currently constructed in 2020. As discussed, we probably win 7-8 games with a healthy Barkley and everyone on this board has a way better feeling about this team right now into the offseason. Injuries happen. But when they happen to your best player it is tough to come back from.
Well played, Sir!
he's not the issue but having nelson instead of barkley would make a big difference right now
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A guy who advocated the team to draft TJ Hockenson really shouldn't be patting himself on the back regarding draft prowess.
Well, Hockenson did make the Pro Bowl this year. He actually had a very good year. FWIW.
So did Engram...
Did you watch the first two games this year, btw?
He did nothing. And that's because DCs declared the game plan this year with SB in the line-up - you aren't beating us, DJ is. That's not to say SB wouldn't have come around and had a decent year, but let's not act like he was setting the league on fire. He was stymied.
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The Giants haven't paid Zeitler as a top 5 OG. They've paid him $20M over 2 years (including $2.5M in bonus for 2021) and if he plays 2021 at $12M it would be $32M over 3 seasons.
$10.6M per year would be 8th among RGs and 13th among all OGs.
For that matter, Solder is no longer top 5 LT though at least with him the point is valid (massively overpaid given his production).
I'm talking this year -- Zetiler has the 4th highest cap hit of any guard, and apologies on Solder, he'll have the 6th.
It's March 2nd. Want to bet both are lower by opening day?
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In comment 15164705 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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A guy who advocated the team to draft TJ Hockenson really shouldn't be patting himself on the back regarding draft prowess.
Well, Hockenson did make the Pro Bowl this year. He actually had a very good year. FWIW.
So did Engram...
I have no reply... ;)
WFT....is in lowest grouping!....but they need to sign a QB.
I suspect everyone will be around the same....when the cap matters
We need real news, badly.
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at Dallas, home Tampa, at Eagles are games when you look back at how they went, having Barkley on the field would have helped immensely. Especially with a lead.
Did you watch the first two games this year, btw?
He did nothing. And that's because DCs declared the game plan this year with SB in the line-up - you aren't beating us, DJ is. That's not to say SB wouldn't have come around and had a decent year, but let's not act like he was setting the league on fire. He was stymied.
I agree to an extent but why didn't it continue? Gallman is a jag but why not also hit him behind the LOS and force more long downs? Doesn't make much sense to me. What changed with Jones to no longer want to completely shut down the run?
Better explanation is the new line was putrid the first quarter of last year and eventually got better in the 2nd half.
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In comment 15164717 ryanmkeane said:
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at Dallas, home Tampa, at Eagles are games when you look back at how they went, having Barkley on the field would have helped immensely. Especially with a lead.
Did you watch the first two games this year, btw?
He did nothing. And that's because DCs declared the game plan this year with SB in the line-up - you aren't beating us, DJ is. That's not to say SB wouldn't have come around and had a decent year, but let's not act like he was setting the league on fire. He was stymied.
I agree to an extent but why didn't it continue? Gallman is a jag but why not also hit him behind the LOS and force more long downs? Doesn't make much sense to me. What changed with Jones to no longer want to completely shut down the run?
Better explanation is the new line was putrid the first quarter of last year and eventually got better in the 2nd half.
An OL with a rookie LT and an UDFA starting his first career game at C after no preseason and minimal training camp, struggled out of the gate? Shocking!
What is important is where those dollars are being spent - and they are mostly wasted on overpaid players that are under-performing.
that's a problem
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In comment 15164705 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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A guy who advocated the team to draft TJ Hockenson really shouldn't be patting himself on the back regarding draft prowess.
Well, Hockenson did make the Pro Bowl this year. He actually had a very good year. FWIW.
So did Engram...
Game over
He did nothing. And that's because DCs declared the game plan this year with SB in the line-up - you aren't beating us, DJ is. That's not to say SB wouldn't have come around and had a decent year, but let's not act like he was setting the league on fire. He was stymied.(quote/)
It's a waste of time to throw facts at that wall.
Shame on Jones, against the seasoned and dominating defenses of Chicago and Pittsburgh he didn't Light It Up. What a bum.
In his second year he should have carried them. The fact that offensive lines of all the segments most critically needs continuity is of no Factor here. Gates at his first game ever including High School at Center should be discounted. Andrew was not meant to play left tackle his freshman year but we shouldn't make allowances for that either. Continuity was limited to 16 practices and the teams with new schemes and coaches were grievously handicapped. But let's not consider that either.
If you want to consider anything, consider it a miracle that we kept those games close.
What is important is where those dollars are being spent - and they are mostly wasted on overpaid players that are under-performing.
that's a problem
And it’s an important point as FA quickly approaches. Stop making the same mistakes.
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at Dallas, home Tampa, at Eagles are games when you look back at how they went, having Barkley on the field would have helped immensely. Especially with a lead.
Did you watch the first two games this year, btw?
He did nothing. And that's because DCs declared the game plan this year with SB in the line-up - you aren't beating us, DJ is. That's not to say SB wouldn't have come around and had a decent year, but let's not act like he was setting the league on fire. He was stymied.
LOL. The "first two games"?? Wasn't Barkley hurt in the 1st quarter of the Bears game?
What didn't make sense was paying Eli, and then using the 6th pick overall to overdraft a day 2/3 talent at quarterback. That did not make sense.
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Considering the Giants record under Getty, what makes me wonder are not the continuous slammers of DG but his legion of faithful defenders.
Objectively, measurably, the offense is terrible and not only includes the above noted FA contracts, which many here panned in real time, but also three top ten draft choices, which many here also panned irt. All these picks, all the money, and yet, the offense is horrible. Lets not forget, the offense isn’t just pathetic in terms of production, but Garrett is also a throw back coach who doesn’t appear to embrace many of the modern NFL concepts. And Getty boasts about his affinity for building a run first team. Maybe he’s right and the path to victory is on the back of Barks. And maybe DG defenders are right and this is all going to turn around this year. I hope so! But I don’t think so.
Not sure if i'm part of that club or not but regardless of who the GM is I don't really feel the need to come on every single thread and repeat the same criticisms over and over. That's not a defense, I simply don't enjoy it, i've read and heard it all several hundred times over by now. I'm willing to bet plenty of others fall into this category with a select few actually defending him tooth and nail.
His tenure hasn't been ideal but I'm hopeful that Judge's continued influence will tip the scales into getting players he specifically wants. They seem to work well together.
^^This^^
Pitts' skillset is much much better than Hockenson coming out of college.
Since Soldier and Barkley didn't play last year, Can someone do some work and take both Soldier and Barkley out of the mix and recalculate?
Ah, never mind, continue to bitch and complain about some made up bogus meaningless numbers.
Yeah, adding Nate fucking Solder into the mix surely would have helped immeasurably.
😂
Since Soldier and Barkley didn't play last year, Can someone do some work and take both Soldier and Barkley out of the mix and recalculate?
Ah, never mind, continue to bitch and complain about some made up bogus meaningless numbers.
These #s aren't even for last year, they're for this upcoming season...
Since Soldier and Barkley didn't play last year, Can someone do some work and take both Soldier and Barkley out of the mix and recalculate?
Ah, never mind, continue to bitch and complain about some made up bogus meaningless numbers.
Players come off the salary cap when they're injured? News to me. That doesn't apply to Solder, but he's been so horrible that he did the Giants a favor opting out. Hardly the sign of good resource allotment.
The injury is not an excuse with Barkley. Injuries and running backs was discussed ad nauseum before and after that pick was made.
Barkley didn't make much difference in the one year he was healthy (in 2018 the average play to Barkley gained 5.3 yards; league average play was 5.6 yards). And since then it's been two years of injuries and excuses.
You want to think he'll turn it around and be worth the contract Mara will inevitably give him to continue to sell jerseys and Toyotas or whatever? Fine. That's where faith comes back in.
Sure, Solder's contract sucks, Tate's very overpaid. And Zeitler is carrying a big cap number for 2021, Barkley is relatively expensive due to his draft slot, etc. Those are all factors, but even the lower-priced players haven't really been bargains. Toilolo was a waste, though it's easy to miss because it's not a big number. Engram is moderately productive, but is also paid more than a comparably productive TE across the league. Of the young players, even though they're not especially expensive, they also haven't been especially good. I guess you can make a case for Slayton being a bargain (in addition to the aforementioned Gates). That's really it.
That's also why it's silly when some posters try to defend DG's cap management. If every player was actually paid commensurate with their production, we'd have a ton of cap room right now because we sure as heck aren't getting a ton of production, at least not on the offensive side of the ball.
Sure, Solder's contract sucks, Tate's very overpaid. And Zeitler is carrying a big cap number for 2021, Barkley is relatively expensive due to his draft slot, etc. Those are all factors, but even the lower-priced players haven't really been bargains. Toilolo was a waste, though it's easy to miss because it's not a big number. Engram is moderately productive, but is also paid more than a comparably productive TE across the league. Of the young players, even though they're not especially expensive, they also haven't been especially good. I guess you can make a case for Slayton being a bargain (in addition to the aforementioned Gates). That's really it.
That's also why it's silly when some posters try to defend DG's cap management. If every player was actually paid commensurate with their production, we'd have a ton of cap room right now because we sure as heck aren't getting a ton of production, at least not on the offensive side of the ball.
Slayton
Lemiuex
Gallman was a bargain, at least in 2020.
He and Abrams handed out those shit contracts. And some of you are ok with the prospect of Abrams succeeding Dave??
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Since Soldier and Barkley didn't play last year, Can someone do some work and take both Soldier and Barkley out of the mix and recalculate?
Yeah, adding Nate fucking Solder into the mix surely would have helped immeasurably.
😂
funny...
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You'd be hard-pressed to find anyone on the offense who is genuinely a bargain relative to their production.
Sure, Solder's contract sucks, Tate's very overpaid. And Zeitler is carrying a big cap number for 2021, Barkley is relatively expensive due to his draft slot, etc. Those are all factors, but even the lower-priced players haven't really been bargains. Toilolo was a waste, though it's easy to miss because it's not a big number. Engram is moderately productive, but is also paid more than a comparably productive TE across the league. Of the young players, even though they're not especially expensive, they also haven't been especially good. I guess you can make a case for Slayton being a bargain (in addition to the aforementioned Gates). That's really it.
That's also why it's silly when some posters try to defend DG's cap management. If every player was actually paid commensurate with their production, we'd have a ton of cap room right now because we sure as heck aren't getting a ton of production, at least not on the offensive side of the ball.
Slayton
Lemiuex
Gallman was a bargain, at least in 2020.
I don't think Lemieux was a bargain - I think we got exactly what we paid for him. But I'll concede that at least he wasn't a liability in terms of cap value.
As for Gallman, he's not actually included in these numbers because it's for 2021, but using his 2020 cap hit ($930k), I guess he was a solid bargain last season, although I'd argue that whatever bargain value you assign to Gallman, you'd have to tack on as an overpay to Barkley, since the only reason Gallman was more productive than his price tag was the fact that Barkley was injured.
The most glaring issue is how bad the veterans the Giants have acquired over the last 3 years on the offense have performed.
There's a good chance the only veteran acquired in 18/19/20 to make the roster this year is Zeitler. And even he might be on his way out.
Or you do not.
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👎
He and Abrams handed out those shit contracts. And some of you are ok with the prospect of Abrams succeeding Dave??
If the Giants go 6-10 again, it's going to be interesting to see what they do at GM. Another sham interview process like the one that landed Gettleman would be tough to take.
Or you do not.
It's not just Judge. He isn't running the team.
I'd be willing bet neither is on the roster.
And that's the problem. When you allocate considerable resources on players, you'd like them to play well and stay on the team.
Next year seems a better barometer to see how the Giants allocate dollars. Solder, Tate and I think Sheppard and Zeitler won't be on the team. More money will be spent on D the next couple years and I think the Giants will be much cheaper on OL allocation.
I think I'm that scenario Judge sticks around and Gettleman's gone. They promote Abrams after another sham interview process, and Judge is coaching for his job in 2022.
Rinse, lather, repeat.
Then you have the NY market. Two 6-10 seasons usually gets the media in full attack mode. It also most likely means Jones fizzled. This is where it can get tough because now you have to find another QB which will be very challenging. Do you commit to Judge knowing there are more growing pains or do you do a complete blow up......again.
RB - there are 4 RB in the NFL set to be a bigger cap hit than Barkley's 10 mil next year - in order - Zeke/Henry/McCaffery
G - there are 3 guards in the NFL set to be a bigger cap hit than Zeitler's 14.5 mil next year - in order - Martin/Norwall/Brooks
T - there are 4 OT in the NFL set to be a bigger cap hit than Solder's 16.5 mil next year - in order - Matthews/Humphries/Tunsil/Johnson
Compared to their peers - that is horrific production from your top 3 paid offensive players and each of them are top 5 paid players at their respective position in the NFL.
Brutal.
Imagine this simple scenario:
2018 - Giants actually fix one OL position instead of Solder
2019 - Giants actually fix one WR instead of Tate
2020 - Giants address blocking TE instead of Toilolo
How much better are the Giants today with 1 more good lineman, one more good WR, and a blocking TE?
I get it - to a degree.
But it's always something, isn't it? It's Covid. New staff. Players from the old regime. DJ is only in his second year. We don't have a good OL for DJ. Barkley is dinged. Barkley just needs a better OL. We need better receivers. Etc, etc.
At some point, either we have players who can make plays or we don't.
That's why I find it so interesting that the one dude that does make plays - LW - you want to get rid of....
What about complaining about the complaining? Will that make the offense better?
Hey, it can't be much worse!
That's why I find it so interesting that the one dude that does make plays - LW - you want to get rid of....
LW does make plays. Just not enough to pay him $20M+ annually....
I loathe the cap model, but it's the system and it requires smarter planning and management than Gentleman has shown.
JFC, he's been a disaster...
WFT....is in lowest grouping!....but they need to sign a QB.
I suspect everyone will be around the same....when the cap matters
We need real news, badly.
You aint kidding. I guess we don't discuss the amount of long term BIG contracts on this offense? How many?
NONE. NOT ONE...unless you count that Whopper that Shepard is earning. Except it isn't a whopper. Same with ...NO ONE ELSE!
The only negative to the contracts and FA and cap? Fans and media alike obsessing over this crap. Objectivuty is lost these days. Players makes X amount of money? Fans lose their shit. The game is fine. The league is fine. The players want it more than they ever wanted it. The teams HAVE to spend now. No more cheap teams.
ONce the fans finally get over the sticker shock mentality and get over that your team is going to spend a lot of money on a FA, and that even if that player doesn't live up to the contract, that doesn't mean the grass was definitely greener on the other side. PLayer B in FA wasn't even coming here. So move on and be content with player A.
Sorry, I should be allowed to cap rant once a week especially when someone says they hate the cap...lol.. ill duck out now.
Me? What did I say that was wrong? How many long term contracts are on this offense? The cap is overstated in instances like this. if the Giants had 5-6 whopper long term deals on offense and had the same cap space being displayed I would say they are up against it. They aren't.
Giants are loaded with space. They acted that way last year and will likely go after their guys this year too. They can add the guys they need. Ill be here to say I told you when April rolls around.
It really is amazing. How many years of this shit before we can all call it shit? I think I asked that exact question two years ago in disbelief over the constant excuses and rationalizations. Two years on my disbelief remains.
Giants are loaded with space. They acted that way last year and will likely go after their guys this year too. They can add the guys they need. Ill be here to say I told you when April rolls around.
Why do you insist on confirming how little you understand about the cap on every single thread that it comes up?
Sure, but can't we apply your usual mindset and declare that he's still a young player and -- given his production to date -- he's likely to be come elite?
1) Judge is an upper echelon coach
2) DG / Abrams / the Giants front office are serviceable
Now I want to be clear, these statements could prove to be true but as they currently stand one of these statements is overstated.
We've seen plenty of first year coaches have a lot more success than Judge did right out of the gate.
If the roster is so bad that Judge can't fully display his talents it's because the Giants roster construction abilities are behind even "regular bad" teams. When the previous head coach is fired it almost always means the roster is pretty bad. So if Judge is as good as many talk about him and we had the performance we did, it's because our front office is that bad.
I personally think 1 is more true than 2 but what bothers me is how everyone talks about how good the "team" of DG and Judge were this year. It shouldn't be the job of the head coach to make up for deficiencies in the front office. Especially if those deficiencies are the result of ownership wanting to engage in nepotism and pal around with people they like.
Most importantly, to be real about this high level approach... It will be a surprise if this suddenly starts to work again without major changes, it shouldn't be the expectation
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would be a Gronkowski type. He's nowhere near the level of receiving threat that Gronk was in his prime.
Sure, but can't we apply your usual mindset and declare that he's still a young player and -- given his production to date -- he's likely to be come elite?
a laugh from me...
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5 million in space right now but 40 million next year vs 10 million in space right now but only 5 million next year. which are you taking?
Giants are loaded with space. They acted that way last year and will likely go after their guys this year too. They can add the guys they need. Ill be here to say I told you when April rolls around.
Why do you insist on confirming how little you understand about the cap on every single thread that it comes up?
Really now...ok. So you're telling me that a team that has little LONG term cap tied up is in no better shape than a team that does have long term space tied up?
Wow...that's impossible but good to know. Any other nuggets?
Why does it anger some of you when I point out that NY has plenty of space? Oh, wait, never mind, it's a DG thing.
Carry on. Giants have NO space and are fucked. Feel better?
If it's so easy to add the guys they need -- why didn't they add the guys they needed on offense last year? Serious question.
The answer is they allocated lots of money to guys like Tate, Zeitler, Shepard, and even the ghost on Nate Solder had a 5.6M cap charge.
The Giants added the incomparable Cam Fleming, Dion Lewis, and Levine Toilolo via free agency last year to the offense. And we all saw how that went.
Fucking crushed it, right?
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5 million in space right now but 40 million next year vs 10 million in space right now but only 5 million next year. which are you taking?
Giants are loaded with space. They acted that way last year and will likely go after their guys this year too. They can add the guys they need. Ill be here to say I told you when April rolls around.
Why do you insist on confirming how little you understand about the cap on every single thread that it comes up?
The Giants have more space than these numbers show. Why? Because they have more space coming in 21-22. That's not made up. That's fact. Now, it's also worth mentioning that NY has some young players coming up for new deals around that time, so they certainly have some decisions to make. I never said anything to the contrary.
I don't act like I know more than anyone. What I do know is you're obsessed with DG bashing and my posts saying the Giants aren't in any cap hell must not jive with your agenda or hatred.
Don't like it? Too fucking bad.
Giants are loaded with space. They acted that way last year and will likely go after their guys this year too. They can add the guys they need. Ill be here to say I told you when April rolls around.
This is usually how it goes...
1) Somebody creates a thread or discussion involving salaries, contracts, cap space or the like.
2) Then you come on and put up about 3 or 4 tirade-laced posts about how stupid this whole salary cap thing is and the NYG can sign anybody/everybody they want because its not real.
3) Then one or two posters argue with you that it is indeed real and you simply don't get it.
4) Ultimately, you cave to some logical statement or simply frustration, tell everybody "sorry, and you will bow out" of any further conversations on the topic.
Can you just cut to the chase on this going forward and get to #4 immediately because as Carly Simon would suggest "I haven't got time for the pain"...
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Giants are loaded with space. They acted that way last year and will likely go after their guys this year too. They can add the guys they need. Ill be here to say I told you when April rolls around.
If it's so easy to add the guys they need -- why didn't they add the guys they needed on offense last year? Serious question.
The answer is they allocated lots of money to guys like Tate, Zeitler, Shepard, and even the ghost on Nate Solder had a 5.6M cap charge.
The Giants added the incomparable Cam Fleming, Dion Lewis, and Levine Toilolo via free agency last year to the offense. And we all saw how that went.
Fucking crushed it, right?
WHat the hell does this have to do with anything? Who was available last year? Did the Giants try and miss? Was money the reason why they didn't sign some offensive dynamo? Do you know this? Does anyone here?
The Giants spent a boat load last offseason. They had money. And they have money. They will sign players this off-season, likely on the offensive side.
You're moving the goalposts.
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In comment 15165084 djm said:
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5 million in space right now but 40 million next year vs 10 million in space right now but only 5 million next year. which are you taking?
Giants are loaded with space. They acted that way last year and will likely go after their guys this year too. They can add the guys they need. Ill be here to say I told you when April rolls around.
Why do you insist on confirming how little you understand about the cap on every single thread that it comes up?
Really now...ok. So you're telling me that a team that has little LONG term cap tied up is in no better shape than a team that does have long term space tied up?
Wow...that's impossible but good to know. Any other nuggets?
Why does it anger some of you when I point out that NY has plenty of space? Oh, wait, never mind, it's a DG thing.
Carry on. Giants have NO space and are fucked. Feel better?
The cap needs to be managed with a long-term view, but can only be assembled within that season's cap limits. You keep bringing up the lack of long-term obligations as though that's some sort of fucking feather in anyone's cap, but it doesn't do anything for us THIS year.
You can't just cram infinite players in because you have space next year and the year after. You have to fit everyone under the cap each year. You seriously have no idea how detached from reality your posts sound whenever you talk about the cap.
If you want to go toe to toe on intricacies of the cap, I'm happy to do it whenever you'd like.
Why the hell wouldn't I post that? This stat is misleading. If you don't want to be alerted to facts like this why are you here? Oh wait, I know why, it's to stir shit up and find any reason to bash the GM.
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In comment 15165114 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15165084 djm said:
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5 million in space right now but 40 million next year vs 10 million in space right now but only 5 million next year. which are you taking?
Giants are loaded with space. They acted that way last year and will likely go after their guys this year too. They can add the guys they need. Ill be here to say I told you when April rolls around.
Why do you insist on confirming how little you understand about the cap on every single thread that it comes up?
Really now...ok. So you're telling me that a team that has little LONG term cap tied up is in no better shape than a team that does have long term space tied up?
Wow...that's impossible but good to know. Any other nuggets?
Why does it anger some of you when I point out that NY has plenty of space? Oh, wait, never mind, it's a DG thing.
Carry on. Giants have NO space and are fucked. Feel better?
The cap needs to be managed with a long-term view, but can only be assembled within that season's cap limits. You keep bringing up the lack of long-term obligations as though that's some sort of fucking feather in anyone's cap, but it doesn't do anything for us THIS year.
You can't just cram infinite players in because you have space next year and the year after. You have to fit everyone under the cap each year. You seriously have no idea how detached from reality your posts sound whenever you talk about the cap.
If you want to go toe to toe on intricacies of the cap, I'm happy to do it whenever you'd like.
What on earth are you even talking about.
The Giants committed to ~$130M total dollars last offseason.
You're telling me the Giants and MAra aren't more inclined to spend big long term money this year because they don't have that many long term whoppers on the team?
There's cap economics and business economics at play here. Of course the long term books play a part. How could you suggest otherwise?
Yes, I know the Giants overpaid Rhett Elison and eric thomlinson or whatever his name is. Fine. They overpaid. You win.
They still have more space than this OP suggests.
See you when the Giants sign impact offensive talent in a month or so. Wonder how they pull off the impossible.
See you when the Giants sign impact offensive talent in a month or so. Wonder how they pull off the impossible.
Dude, no one is saying it's impossible.
But they will have to make substantial moves to allow for the immediate-term reality.
The only year's cap that actually applies -- this year. They can be a billion dollars over next year, and it literally doesn't matter right now.
They do have to fit all of their allocations under this year. They are currently very close if not over that number. They will have to cut and/or re-negotiate contracts. They will allocate substantive dead money to players not on the team because of bad prior deals.
They're going to pull that off by cutting several players -- Tate, Solder, Toilolo, Core and potentially Zetiler.
Of course you have to fit into every cap figure every year. That's common sense. And you damn well know there are ways to move money around. ways to get under the cap. The less long term money the easier that is. You know what I meant.
NAte Solder's cap hit is huge. IT's also for 1-2 years, 2 tops. That's a factor! Same with Zielter. If those guys were 2-3 years longer in the contract tooth we'd be in a tougher spot right now even if the cap number was the same this season. You can't possibly question that.
Whatever, we've been over this misses from DG. I'm tired and hungry.
I think they have more than enough money where they can win if they allocate it well and hit on their moves.
The problem is when you are talking about the Giants as if they are adept at doing this and we can expect them to deftly navigate the cap.
I think the particular relevance to looking at this thread specifically is how poorly the dollars they allocated to the offense turned out this past year.
Sure, this cap situation is absolutely a situation that a team could create a winner in 2/3 years. But honestly even teams in the worst cap shape can put together a winning team in 2/3 years. It's actually quite easy to just take one season picking in the top 10 as the Giants have had many of and to fix your cap situation in a lasting way.
I think the real question is why would anyone believe that we should have faith in the Giants to allocate resources well?
Seems like you focus on the possible and ignore the probable.
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5 million in space right now but 40 million next year vs 10 million in space right now but only 5 million next year. which are you taking?
Giants are loaded with space. They acted that way last year and will likely go after their guys this year too. They can add the guys they need. Ill be here to say I told you when April rolls around.
This is usually how it goes...
1) Somebody creates a thread or discussion involving salaries, contracts, cap space or the like.
2) Then you come on and put up about 3 or 4 tirade-laced posts about how stupid this whole salary cap thing is and the NYG can sign anybody/everybody they want because its not real.
3) Then one or two posters argue with you that it is indeed real and you simply don't get it.
4) Ultimately, you cave to some logical statement or simply frustration, tell everybody "sorry, and you will bow out" of any further conversations on the topic.
Can you just cut to the chase on this going forward and get to #4 immediately because as Carly Simon would suggest "I haven't got time for the pain"...
Did you get to #4 yet?
You're telling me the Giants and MAra aren't more inclined to spend big long term money this year because they don't have that many long term whoppers on the team?
There's cap economics and business economics at play here. Of course the long term books play a part. How could you suggest otherwise?
Yes, I know the Giants overpaid Rhett Elison and eric thomlinson or whatever his name is. Fine. They overpaid. You win.
They still have more space than this OP suggests.
Here we go again with them having more space than what they actually have according to - THE VALID, EXECUTED PLAYER CONTRACTS THAT THEY HAVE ON THE BOOKS FOR 2021.
You sound like a lunatic. Strap on your tin foil hat. Or should I say, your tin foil cap?
Team A cap space of 10 million but tons open up in 21-22.
Team B cap space of 10 million but tons of problems in 21-22.
Which team LIKELY spends more this off-season or it at least inclined to spend more this off-season if so desired?
That's my point. It's definitely a factor.
Team A cap space of 10 million but tons open up in 21-22.
Team B cap space of 10 million but tons of problems in 21-22.
Which team LIKELY spends more this off-season or it at least inclined to spend more this off-season if so desired?
That's my point. It's definitely a factor.
Hey dunk boy, read this and tell me I am out of touch or wrong. Please. I could use a good laugh.
Never said they didn't have to adhere to a fixed cap. NOT ONE FUCKING TIME.
I said you can get creative ESPECIALLY with less long term cap money on the books. And you know this to be true.
Now, fuck off.
The Giants have more space than these numbers show. Why? Because they have more space coming in 21-22. That's not made up. That's fact. Now, it's also worth mentioning that NY has some young players coming up for new deals around that time, so they certainly have some decisions to make. I never said anything to the contrary.
I don't act like I know more than anyone. What I do know is you're obsessed with DG bashing and my posts saying the Giants aren't in any cap hell must not jive with your agenda or hatred.
Don't like it? Too fucking bad.
The Giants are in "organizational hell". And much of that is driven by Gettleman and his:
-- average to below average drafting
-- poor free agent decisions - personnel and contracts
-- "old school" philosophies
-- cap management
Cap space in the out years is unpredictable. We have Barkley coming up. A Jones decision. Perhaps LW if he gets the FT again. Etc.
The best play is always try to pay the right players at the most influential positions and pivot as soon as possible when a situation goes sideways.
But continue to think we live in a "soft cap" and there is "always" more to spend.
I wasn’t disputing that 7th in Oncap space isn’t a bad return on investment.
Whatever, I promised I wouldn’t torpedo cap threads anymore so I’m sorry for this. Wasn’t my intention. I said my peace and feel strongly that the lack of future big money is a factor and will be a factor this offseason. Sports writers have absolutely said this as well. Maybe I didn’t convey things correctly.
I’ll take back the fuck off comment to you Gatorade but calling someone a lunatic tends to get one angry. Peace.
Read my posts again. Try and read.
The space they have in 2022/2023 doesn't address the issue -- they are either at or over the likely 2021 salary cap, and they will have to cut or re-structure several players, to retain or add good players.
Most urgently, the Giants are up against the real possibility of franchising tagging Leonard Williams on a 2nd tender, at 19.3M dollars. Real, huge money, all owed this year.
Players will require compensation in 2021. The Giants will need to spend meaningful dollar this year to improve their talent.
The space they have in 2022/2023 doesn't address the issue -- they are either at or over the likely 2021 salary cap, and they will have to cut or re-structure several players, to retain or add good players.
Most urgently, the Giants are up against the real possibility of franchising tagging Leonard Williams on a 2nd tender, at 19.3M dollars. Real, huge money, all owed this year.
Players will require compensation in 2021. The Giants will need to spend meaningful dollar this year to improve their talent.
Understood and agreed. And I’ll be cranky if they tag Williams again.
Of course you have to fit into every cap figure every year. That's common sense. And you damn well know there are ways to move money around. ways to get under the cap. The less long term money the easier that is. You know what I meant.
NAte Solder's cap hit is huge. IT's also for 1-2 years, 2 tops. That's a factor! Same with Zielter. If those guys were 2-3 years longer in the contract tooth we'd be in a tougher spot right now even if the cap number was the same this season. You can't possibly question that.
Whatever, we've been over this misses from DG. I'm tired and hungry.
Let me give you an example of what happens when teams manage the cap as you suggest.
DG signs Patrick Omameh in 2018 to a 3 year/$15M contract ($5.5M guaranteed), which is no one's idea of a cap-busting contract, but also not an insignificant amount. Omameh so rapidly demonstrates that he is an absolute bust that he doesn't make it through one full season with NYG. Omameh's contract is terminated, and his guaranteed money becomes "dead money" of which $3.3M is charged against the Giants' 2019 cap.
In 2019, DG decides to undergo a dead money purge, clearing out several contracts and playing that season with the 2nd most dead money in the league. Not surprisingly, the Giants are putrid as they trot out a roster that is carrying $55M in dead money instead of using that money on players.
As injuries mount, it becomes clear that DG has taken on more dead money than he can functionally carry in order to maintain the roster and make some late-season personnel transactions. $3.3M of this dead money is attributable to the Omameh contract.
In order to manage the roster in-season and stay under the cap, DG converts salary to bonus for two players whose contracts can absorb such a move: Rhett Ellison and Nate Solder. Both are aging vets and both had underachieved with the Giants, but DG didn't have many options. This frees up $6M in space for 2019, but results in Ellison's 2020 cap hit increasing by $1M, and Solder's hit in 2020 and 2021 increasing by $2.5M each (when Solder opted out for 2020, this moved to 2021 and 2022). At least one (if not both) of these restructures would not have been necessary if the Giants were not carrying dead money from Omameh in 2019.
Rhett Ellison retired after the 2019 season, shifting his remaining bonus (including the newly restructured amount) to dead money for 2020. The Giants carried a $2.2M cap hit for Ellison last season, with $1M of it due to his 2019 restructure. This money, had it not been charged as dead money in 2020, would have rolled over as available cap space for 2021.
Now we approach free agency for 2021, faced with the challenge to re-sign Leonard Williams, but armed with $3.5M less in cap room this offseason (-$1M for the Ellison dead money hit that would have rolled over into 2021, -$2.5M for the higher cap hit that Solder is carrying now because of his 2019 restructure), and must navigate the salary cap in such a way that they can operate effectively to improve their roster for the upcoming season. In order to free up additional money that they can use to sign free agents, they may need to restructure someone like Zeitler, who is also an aging veteran, just like Ellison and Solder were - this will likely decrease cap space in 2022.
As an indirect result of a bad signing in 2018 (Omameh), we are continuing to kick cap obligations into the future and borrow against future years in order to operate. This is the salary cap equivalent of living paycheck to paycheck and using your credit cards to manage unforeseen circumstances.
In every thread that involves the cap, you claim that the Giants can always create room if they need it, and that's true, but it results in less cap room in that future year, and increased dead money liability (especially since the contracts that are typically restructured to create space are older veterans who have high salaries to begin with). A year from now, if Zeitler's play falls off a cliff or if he chooses to retire (neither one of those possibilities being completely remote), the Giants will incur however much dead money in an amount equal to whatever they open up to operate this offseason.
Hopefully, this example helps illustrate for you that not only is it risky to always be borrowing from future years in order to create cap space, but that signing bad players, even those who receive moderate contracts (like Omameh) can have downstream implications that drag on your salary cap for multiple years.
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The immediate and medium term are equally important when managing the cap.
The space they have in 2022/2023 doesn't address the issue -- they are either at or over the likely 2021 salary cap, and they will have to cut or re-structure several players, to retain or add good players.
Most urgently, the Giants are up against the real possibility of franchising tagging Leonard Williams on a 2nd tender, at 19.3M dollars. Real, huge money, all owed this year.
Players will require compensation in 2021. The Giants will need to spend meaningful dollar this year to improve their talent.
Understood and agreed. And I’ll be cranky if they tag Williams again.
I'm actually quite bullish on this offseason. The Giants were able to add 4 pretty good players on longterm deals last year -- Bradberry, Martinez, Ryan, and Gano -- with a total 2020 cap hit of 30M.
They should be able to replicate the same kind of talent retention/acquisition.
I think with some cuts, they'll be able to retain one of their defensive tackles, add a good interior offensive lineman, a quality WR, and a blocking TE.
2) Nor how willing they are to let some people go
3) Nor which players have higher risk of physical degradation or breakdown but the NYG do not wish to share that information.
4) Nor what they suspect other teams will do either tagging/renegotiating or letting their players go.
We do know five things:
A) All GMs and all teams and all fans of their teams have 4-10 guys they think are overpaid relative to performance at this time. 100% of all GM's, fans and teams. Every year.
B) All Fans of all teams cannot know what options their were or are.
C) Last year many of the new NYG contracts were shorter than the past and limited risk in the out years if a player had to be released. Better contract practices for more (but im sure not all) of the contracts.
D) All fans get mad when a player used to be worth it but wasn't on the last play.
E) Optimists will be optimistic dreamers stuck on flashes and factoids and guys who want to rummage in buckets of old fish will insist brand new fish buckets will be just like the past buckets of old fish.
Both will be right 50% of the time in a league where every line and RB play is the equivalent damage to the bodies as being in a 35mph car crash, the average career is 4 years, 50% of selections dont get to play more than partially in a year and the ten year average winning percentage of 32 teams is 50%.
Like many an internet discussion, it thrives because no one knows and everyone has what looks like a counterfactual debating point.
This dead zone in the calendar of football fodder is boring and frustrating for us all.
Omameh sucked as a player, but to say the signing was somehow a cap horror show would be a massive massive stretch.
We aren’t going to not sign Leonard Williams based on having 1-4M dollars of space. They will be able to move stuff around if need be.
This isn’t the NBA - teams can create space however they need to. Now - if we had a bunch of contracts like Solder that would be one thing. But we don’t. We have 1 contract like that.
Saquon Barkley is an elite player when healthy, we’ve seen it. I’m not sure what you are getting at.
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I never professed or said i wanted to go toe to toe. I don't act like I know every detail with the cap. You do.
Of course you have to fit into every cap figure every year. That's common sense. And you damn well know there are ways to move money around. ways to get under the cap. The less long term money the easier that is. You know what I meant.
NAte Solder's cap hit is huge. IT's also for 1-2 years, 2 tops. That's a factor! Same with Zielter. If those guys were 2-3 years longer in the contract tooth we'd be in a tougher spot right now even if the cap number was the same this season. You can't possibly question that.
Whatever, we've been over this misses from DG. I'm tired and hungry.
Let me give you an example of what happens when teams manage the cap as you suggest.
DG signs Patrick Omameh in 2018 to a 3 year/$15M contract ($5.5M guaranteed), which is no one's idea of a cap-busting contract, but also not an insignificant amount. Omameh so rapidly demonstrates that he is an absolute bust that he doesn't make it through one full season with NYG. Omameh's contract is terminated, and his guaranteed money becomes "dead money" of which $3.3M is charged against the Giants' 2019 cap.
In 2019, DG decides to undergo a dead money purge, clearing out several contracts and playing that season with the 2nd most dead money in the league. Not surprisingly, the Giants are putrid as they trot out a roster that is carrying $55M in dead money instead of using that money on players.
As injuries mount, it becomes clear that DG has taken on more dead money than he can functionally carry in order to maintain the roster and make some late-season personnel transactions. $3.3M of this dead money is attributable to the Omameh contract.
In order to manage the roster in-season and stay under the cap, DG converts salary to bonus for two players whose contracts can absorb such a move: Rhett Ellison and Nate Solder. Both are aging vets and both had underachieved with the Giants, but DG didn't have many options. This frees up $6M in space for 2019, but results in Ellison's 2020 cap hit increasing by $1M, and Solder's hit in 2020 and 2021 increasing by $2.5M each (when Solder opted out for 2020, this moved to 2021 and 2022). At least one (if not both) of these restructures would not have been necessary if the Giants were not carrying dead money from Omameh in 2019.
Rhett Ellison retired after the 2019 season, shifting his remaining bonus (including the newly restructured amount) to dead money for 2020. The Giants carried a $2.2M cap hit for Ellison last season, with $1M of it due to his 2019 restructure. This money, had it not been charged as dead money in 2020, would have rolled over as available cap space for 2021.
Now we approach free agency for 2021, faced with the challenge to re-sign Leonard Williams, but armed with $3.5M less in cap room this offseason (-$1M for the Ellison dead money hit that would have rolled over into 2021, -$2.5M for the higher cap hit that Solder is carrying now because of his 2019 restructure), and must navigate the salary cap in such a way that they can operate effectively to improve their roster for the upcoming season. In order to free up additional money that they can use to sign free agents, they may need to restructure someone like Zeitler, who is also an aging veteran, just like Ellison and Solder were - this will likely decrease cap space in 2022.
As an indirect result of a bad signing in 2018 (Omameh), we are continuing to kick cap obligations into the future and borrow against future years in order to operate. This is the salary cap equivalent of living paycheck to paycheck and using your credit cards to manage unforeseen circumstances.
In every thread that involves the cap, you claim that the Giants can always create room if they need it, and that's true, but it results in less cap room in that future year, and increased dead money liability (especially since the contracts that are typically restructured to create space are older veterans who have high salaries to begin with). A year from now, if Zeitler's play falls off a cliff or if he chooses to retire (neither one of those possibilities being completely remote), the Giants will incur however much dead money in an amount equal to whatever they open up to operate this offseason.
Hopefully, this example helps illustrate for you that not only is it risky to always be borrowing from future years in order to create cap space, but that signing bad players, even those who receive moderate contracts (like Omameh) can have downstream implications that drag on your salary cap for multiple years.
Appreciate the point. I don’t disagree with any of this.
Really in the end we need to hit more drafts. It always goes back to this. Better drafts means less desperation. Overall I do think the giants have been better if even slightly at bringing in young talent the last few years, be it the draft and udfa. Hopefully it wasn’t a mirage and it continues.
Saquon Barkley is an elite player when healthy, we’ve seen it. I’m not sure what you are getting at.
FMIC brought up Hockenson because I wanted to draft him at the 6 spot in 2019. Instead we took Jones.