I’m not someone who continuously slams Gettleman, but this is indefensible. The amount of recent draft picks and FA signings which have gone towards the offense should suggest much better production.
This makes me nervous as we head into FA where it is clear that DG & company will be addressing the offense, again.
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Call me crazy but let's just give it slightly more time with these guys.
Faith-based is one way to go about it. If that's what works for you, that's great.
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our left tackle just turned 22. QB is turning 24 in May. RB (who was one of the best offensive players in football until he tore his knee) is 24.
Call me crazy but let's just give it slightly more time with these guys.
Faith-based is one way to go about it. If that's what works for you, that's great.
Considering drafting is based on potential and not your very first year in the NFL (like Thomas) or 2nd (like Jones) - and the history of NFL draft picks especially quarterbacks needing time - yes - that works for me.
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of the Giants vs other good teams like Tampa, Green Bay, KC, Indy, Saints, etc.
It’s not the overall spend, it’s where and how you spend.
The Saints? Kamara just signed a 5 yr/$75M extension. Their 2020 # just looks low because of the contract structure. But Kamara's cap hits starting 2022: $14.5M, $14M, $14.8M, $25M.
That's fair. But with all of the Saints cap issue - $100M over the cap - I have to imagine they reconfigure that number for AK.
But I didn't mind the Saints re-signing AK at the time. Their SB window was still open and they went all in. AK is a GREAT all-around player who is a scoring machine. So I think that move was an outlier for RBs than I would normally take on RBs...
Yeah, here we go again...posters telling us to believe the arrow is pointing up for no reason at all.
In the real world the Giants are a train wreck until proven otherwise. If you want to believe they aren't that's fine, but don't expect others to believe it.
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of the Giants vs other good teams like Tampa, Green Bay, KC, Indy, Saints, etc.
It’s not the overall spend, it’s where and how you spend.
Golden Tate's cap hit is a hair over Barkley for 2021 - goes to show how inflated WR contracts are. You can argue picking Barkley until you are blue in the face, he or his cost isn't preventing us from being better. Tate sucking, Shepard not playing, Solder sucking and not playing, the OL as a whole not playing decent football until the 2H of 2020, and Jones growing pains + injury are the real issues.
If 50% of the things I listed went from failure to average we'd be a playoff team in all likelihood.
I agree that there were mishits by DG all over the offense. And I wasn't suggesting our RB costs were the only issue. It just jumped out at me our RB costs vis-a-vis other better organizations...
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In comment 15164646 Go Terps said:
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It's not just the 15-33; there's also very little to reasonably expect going forward. The roster is still poor and nowhere near serious contention.
These three years have been catastrophic.
Do you have any idea on how the draft works?
I do. The Giants don't seem to.
A guy who advocated the team to draft TJ Hockenson really shouldn't be patting himself on the back regarding draft prowess.
$10.6M per year would be 8th among RGs and 13th among all OGs.
For that matter, Solder is no longer top 5 LT though at least with him the point is valid (massively overpaid given his production).
I'm talking this year -- Zetiler has the 4th highest cap hit of any guard, and apologies on Solder, he'll have the 6th.
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In comment 15164651 UConn4523 said:
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In comment 15164650 chick310 said:
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you draft high and the ones that need to be addressed via free agency. They both contribute to cap consequences. There is also the plain and simple supply argument by position.
Poor pick and dollar allocations is indeed preventing the Giants from doing things they otherwise would this free agent period. It is talked about every day on this site as of late.
Of course, but again, my position on this is had Jones, or Tate, or Shepard, or Solder, or Zeitler, or Hernandez or Engram, etc lived up to their draft slot and/or cost, we wouldn't be chasing the roster so heavily in FA.
So if everybody else on the Offense just played better than picking Barkley would have been fine. The Giants could have absorbed this poor decision.
I agree.
Yeah that’s typically how teams work, their investments work out FA not working out.
I’m not going back 4 years and using that as the line in the sand of why we stink.
Of course there are many reasons why the team struggles. But this is one of them and its significant.
And the only reason we are talking about it on this thread is because you used at kind of as a line in the sand as to say it has nothing to do with why they stink. I happen to think that is of debate and said why.
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of the Giants vs other good teams like Tampa, Green Bay, KC, Indy, Saints, etc.
It’s not the overall spend, it’s where and how you spend.
wut?
Saints just gave Kamara a massive contract
KC drafted a RB in the first round
Indy drafted Taylor in the 1st half of the 2nd round
As always you try to cherry pick a stat to fit your narrative and then fall flat on your face.
The Saint signing Kamara made sense because they were a SB contending team. And that's the luxury of being a great team. But remember, Kamara wasn't a first round pick, He was a third round pick.
The Chiefs are/were a SB team stacked. So they could afford a LATE first round pick on a RB. Why that is so hard to comprehend that versus the Giants wasting a high pick on a RB when we were clearly trying to dig out of a big hole and nowhere ready to contend?
And the Colts drafted a RB in the second round. Not the #2 pick in the draft. The second round.
Well played, Sir!
A guy who advocated the team to draft TJ Hockenson really shouldn't be patting himself on the back regarding draft prowess.
Well, Hockenson did make the Pro Bowl this year. He actually had a very good year. FWIW.
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is not the issue of this team. He's literally our most skilled player, by a million. Him being on the team and healthy and being close to old form will make us a way better team than we are as currently constructed in 2020. As discussed, we probably win 7-8 games with a healthy Barkley and everyone on this board has a way better feeling about this team right now into the offseason. Injuries happen. But when they happen to your best player it is tough to come back from.
Well played, Sir!
he's not the issue but having nelson instead of barkley would make a big difference right now
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A guy who advocated the team to draft TJ Hockenson really shouldn't be patting himself on the back regarding draft prowess.
Well, Hockenson did make the Pro Bowl this year. He actually had a very good year. FWIW.
So did Engram...
Did you watch the first two games this year, btw?
He did nothing. And that's because DCs declared the game plan this year with SB in the line-up - you aren't beating us, DJ is. That's not to say SB wouldn't have come around and had a decent year, but let's not act like he was setting the league on fire. He was stymied.
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The Giants haven't paid Zeitler as a top 5 OG. They've paid him $20M over 2 years (including $2.5M in bonus for 2021) and if he plays 2021 at $12M it would be $32M over 3 seasons.
$10.6M per year would be 8th among RGs and 13th among all OGs.
For that matter, Solder is no longer top 5 LT though at least with him the point is valid (massively overpaid given his production).
I'm talking this year -- Zetiler has the 4th highest cap hit of any guard, and apologies on Solder, he'll have the 6th.
It's March 2nd. Want to bet both are lower by opening day?
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In comment 15164705 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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A guy who advocated the team to draft TJ Hockenson really shouldn't be patting himself on the back regarding draft prowess.
Well, Hockenson did make the Pro Bowl this year. He actually had a very good year. FWIW.
So did Engram...
I have no reply... ;)
WFT....is in lowest grouping!....but they need to sign a QB.
I suspect everyone will be around the same....when the cap matters
We need real news, badly.
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at Dallas, home Tampa, at Eagles are games when you look back at how they went, having Barkley on the field would have helped immensely. Especially with a lead.
Did you watch the first two games this year, btw?
He did nothing. And that's because DCs declared the game plan this year with SB in the line-up - you aren't beating us, DJ is. That's not to say SB wouldn't have come around and had a decent year, but let's not act like he was setting the league on fire. He was stymied.
I agree to an extent but why didn't it continue? Gallman is a jag but why not also hit him behind the LOS and force more long downs? Doesn't make much sense to me. What changed with Jones to no longer want to completely shut down the run?
Better explanation is the new line was putrid the first quarter of last year and eventually got better in the 2nd half.
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In comment 15164717 ryanmkeane said:
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at Dallas, home Tampa, at Eagles are games when you look back at how they went, having Barkley on the field would have helped immensely. Especially with a lead.
Did you watch the first two games this year, btw?
He did nothing. And that's because DCs declared the game plan this year with SB in the line-up - you aren't beating us, DJ is. That's not to say SB wouldn't have come around and had a decent year, but let's not act like he was setting the league on fire. He was stymied.
I agree to an extent but why didn't it continue? Gallman is a jag but why not also hit him behind the LOS and force more long downs? Doesn't make much sense to me. What changed with Jones to no longer want to completely shut down the run?
Better explanation is the new line was putrid the first quarter of last year and eventually got better in the 2nd half.
An OL with a rookie LT and an UDFA starting his first career game at C after no preseason and minimal training camp, struggled out of the gate? Shocking!
What is important is where those dollars are being spent - and they are mostly wasted on overpaid players that are under-performing.
that's a problem
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In comment 15164705 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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A guy who advocated the team to draft TJ Hockenson really shouldn't be patting himself on the back regarding draft prowess.
Well, Hockenson did make the Pro Bowl this year. He actually had a very good year. FWIW.
So did Engram...
Game over
He did nothing. And that's because DCs declared the game plan this year with SB in the line-up - you aren't beating us, DJ is. That's not to say SB wouldn't have come around and had a decent year, but let's not act like he was setting the league on fire. He was stymied.(quote/)
It's a waste of time to throw facts at that wall.
Shame on Jones, against the seasoned and dominating defenses of Chicago and Pittsburgh he didn't Light It Up. What a bum.
In his second year he should have carried them. The fact that offensive lines of all the segments most critically needs continuity is of no Factor here. Gates at his first game ever including High School at Center should be discounted. Andrew was not meant to play left tackle his freshman year but we shouldn't make allowances for that either. Continuity was limited to 16 practices and the teams with new schemes and coaches were grievously handicapped. But let's not consider that either.
If you want to consider anything, consider it a miracle that we kept those games close.
What is important is where those dollars are being spent - and they are mostly wasted on overpaid players that are under-performing.
that's a problem
And it’s an important point as FA quickly approaches. Stop making the same mistakes.
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at Dallas, home Tampa, at Eagles are games when you look back at how they went, having Barkley on the field would have helped immensely. Especially with a lead.
Did you watch the first two games this year, btw?
He did nothing. And that's because DCs declared the game plan this year with SB in the line-up - you aren't beating us, DJ is. That's not to say SB wouldn't have come around and had a decent year, but let's not act like he was setting the league on fire. He was stymied.
LOL. The "first two games"?? Wasn't Barkley hurt in the 1st quarter of the Bears game?
What didn't make sense was paying Eli, and then using the 6th pick overall to overdraft a day 2/3 talent at quarterback. That did not make sense.
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Considering the Giants record under Getty, what makes me wonder are not the continuous slammers of DG but his legion of faithful defenders.
Objectively, measurably, the offense is terrible and not only includes the above noted FA contracts, which many here panned in real time, but also three top ten draft choices, which many here also panned irt. All these picks, all the money, and yet, the offense is horrible. Lets not forget, the offense isn’t just pathetic in terms of production, but Garrett is also a throw back coach who doesn’t appear to embrace many of the modern NFL concepts. And Getty boasts about his affinity for building a run first team. Maybe he’s right and the path to victory is on the back of Barks. And maybe DG defenders are right and this is all going to turn around this year. I hope so! But I don’t think so.
Not sure if i'm part of that club or not but regardless of who the GM is I don't really feel the need to come on every single thread and repeat the same criticisms over and over. That's not a defense, I simply don't enjoy it, i've read and heard it all several hundred times over by now. I'm willing to bet plenty of others fall into this category with a select few actually defending him tooth and nail.
His tenure hasn't been ideal but I'm hopeful that Judge's continued influence will tip the scales into getting players he specifically wants. They seem to work well together.
^^This^^
Pitts' skillset is much much better than Hockenson coming out of college.
Since Soldier and Barkley didn't play last year, Can someone do some work and take both Soldier and Barkley out of the mix and recalculate?
Ah, never mind, continue to bitch and complain about some made up bogus meaningless numbers.
Yeah, adding Nate fucking Solder into the mix surely would have helped immeasurably.
😂
Since Soldier and Barkley didn't play last year, Can someone do some work and take both Soldier and Barkley out of the mix and recalculate?
Ah, never mind, continue to bitch and complain about some made up bogus meaningless numbers.
These #s aren't even for last year, they're for this upcoming season...
Since Soldier and Barkley didn't play last year, Can someone do some work and take both Soldier and Barkley out of the mix and recalculate?
Ah, never mind, continue to bitch and complain about some made up bogus meaningless numbers.
Players come off the salary cap when they're injured? News to me. That doesn't apply to Solder, but he's been so horrible that he did the Giants a favor opting out. Hardly the sign of good resource allotment.
The injury is not an excuse with Barkley. Injuries and running backs was discussed ad nauseum before and after that pick was made.
Barkley didn't make much difference in the one year he was healthy (in 2018 the average play to Barkley gained 5.3 yards; league average play was 5.6 yards). And since then it's been two years of injuries and excuses.
You want to think he'll turn it around and be worth the contract Mara will inevitably give him to continue to sell jerseys and Toyotas or whatever? Fine. That's where faith comes back in.
Sure, Solder's contract sucks, Tate's very overpaid. And Zeitler is carrying a big cap number for 2021, Barkley is relatively expensive due to his draft slot, etc. Those are all factors, but even the lower-priced players haven't really been bargains. Toilolo was a waste, though it's easy to miss because it's not a big number. Engram is moderately productive, but is also paid more than a comparably productive TE across the league. Of the young players, even though they're not especially expensive, they also haven't been especially good. I guess you can make a case for Slayton being a bargain (in addition to the aforementioned Gates). That's really it.
That's also why it's silly when some posters try to defend DG's cap management. If every player was actually paid commensurate with their production, we'd have a ton of cap room right now because we sure as heck aren't getting a ton of production, at least not on the offensive side of the ball.
Sure, Solder's contract sucks, Tate's very overpaid. And Zeitler is carrying a big cap number for 2021, Barkley is relatively expensive due to his draft slot, etc. Those are all factors, but even the lower-priced players haven't really been bargains. Toilolo was a waste, though it's easy to miss because it's not a big number. Engram is moderately productive, but is also paid more than a comparably productive TE across the league. Of the young players, even though they're not especially expensive, they also haven't been especially good. I guess you can make a case for Slayton being a bargain (in addition to the aforementioned Gates). That's really it.
That's also why it's silly when some posters try to defend DG's cap management. If every player was actually paid commensurate with their production, we'd have a ton of cap room right now because we sure as heck aren't getting a ton of production, at least not on the offensive side of the ball.
Slayton
Lemiuex
Gallman was a bargain, at least in 2020.
He and Abrams handed out those shit contracts. And some of you are ok with the prospect of Abrams succeeding Dave??
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Since Soldier and Barkley didn't play last year, Can someone do some work and take both Soldier and Barkley out of the mix and recalculate?
Yeah, adding Nate fucking Solder into the mix surely would have helped immeasurably.
😂
funny...
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You'd be hard-pressed to find anyone on the offense who is genuinely a bargain relative to their production.
Sure, Solder's contract sucks, Tate's very overpaid. And Zeitler is carrying a big cap number for 2021, Barkley is relatively expensive due to his draft slot, etc. Those are all factors, but even the lower-priced players haven't really been bargains. Toilolo was a waste, though it's easy to miss because it's not a big number. Engram is moderately productive, but is also paid more than a comparably productive TE across the league. Of the young players, even though they're not especially expensive, they also haven't been especially good. I guess you can make a case for Slayton being a bargain (in addition to the aforementioned Gates). That's really it.
That's also why it's silly when some posters try to defend DG's cap management. If every player was actually paid commensurate with their production, we'd have a ton of cap room right now because we sure as heck aren't getting a ton of production, at least not on the offensive side of the ball.
Slayton
Lemiuex
Gallman was a bargain, at least in 2020.
I don't think Lemieux was a bargain - I think we got exactly what we paid for him. But I'll concede that at least he wasn't a liability in terms of cap value.
As for Gallman, he's not actually included in these numbers because it's for 2021, but using his 2020 cap hit ($930k), I guess he was a solid bargain last season, although I'd argue that whatever bargain value you assign to Gallman, you'd have to tack on as an overpay to Barkley, since the only reason Gallman was more productive than his price tag was the fact that Barkley was injured.
The most glaring issue is how bad the veterans the Giants have acquired over the last 3 years on the offense have performed.
There's a good chance the only veteran acquired in 18/19/20 to make the roster this year is Zeitler. And even he might be on his way out.