I’m not someone who continuously slams Gettleman, but this is indefensible. The amount of recent draft picks and FA signings which have gone towards the offense should suggest much better production.
This makes me nervous as we head into FA where it is clear that DG & company will be addressing the offense, again.
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Or you do not.
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He and Abrams handed out those shit contracts. And some of you are ok with the prospect of Abrams succeeding Dave??
If the Giants go 6-10 again, it's going to be interesting to see what they do at GM. Another sham interview process like the one that landed Gettleman would be tough to take.
Or you do not.
It's not just Judge. He isn't running the team.
I'd be willing bet neither is on the roster.
And that's the problem. When you allocate considerable resources on players, you'd like them to play well and stay on the team.
Next year seems a better barometer to see how the Giants allocate dollars. Solder, Tate and I think Sheppard and Zeitler won't be on the team. More money will be spent on D the next couple years and I think the Giants will be much cheaper on OL allocation.
I think I'm that scenario Judge sticks around and Gettleman's gone. They promote Abrams after another sham interview process, and Judge is coaching for his job in 2022.
Rinse, lather, repeat.
Then you have the NY market. Two 6-10 seasons usually gets the media in full attack mode. It also most likely means Jones fizzled. This is where it can get tough because now you have to find another QB which will be very challenging. Do you commit to Judge knowing there are more growing pains or do you do a complete blow up......again.
RB - there are 4 RB in the NFL set to be a bigger cap hit than Barkley's 10 mil next year - in order - Zeke/Henry/McCaffery
G - there are 3 guards in the NFL set to be a bigger cap hit than Zeitler's 14.5 mil next year - in order - Martin/Norwall/Brooks
T - there are 4 OT in the NFL set to be a bigger cap hit than Solder's 16.5 mil next year - in order - Matthews/Humphries/Tunsil/Johnson
Compared to their peers - that is horrific production from your top 3 paid offensive players and each of them are top 5 paid players at their respective position in the NFL.
Brutal.
Imagine this simple scenario:
2018 - Giants actually fix one OL position instead of Solder
2019 - Giants actually fix one WR instead of Tate
2020 - Giants address blocking TE instead of Toilolo
How much better are the Giants today with 1 more good lineman, one more good WR, and a blocking TE?
I get it - to a degree.
But it's always something, isn't it? It's Covid. New staff. Players from the old regime. DJ is only in his second year. We don't have a good OL for DJ. Barkley is dinged. Barkley just needs a better OL. We need better receivers. Etc, etc.
At some point, either we have players who can make plays or we don't.
That's why I find it so interesting that the one dude that does make plays - LW - you want to get rid of....
What about complaining about the complaining? Will that make the offense better?
Hey, it can't be much worse!
That's why I find it so interesting that the one dude that does make plays - LW - you want to get rid of....
LW does make plays. Just not enough to pay him $20M+ annually....
I loathe the cap model, but it's the system and it requires smarter planning and management than Gentleman has shown.
JFC, he's been a disaster...
WFT....is in lowest grouping!....but they need to sign a QB.
I suspect everyone will be around the same....when the cap matters
We need real news, badly.
You aint kidding. I guess we don't discuss the amount of long term BIG contracts on this offense? How many?
NONE. NOT ONE...unless you count that Whopper that Shepard is earning. Except it isn't a whopper. Same with ...NO ONE ELSE!
The only negative to the contracts and FA and cap? Fans and media alike obsessing over this crap. Objectivuty is lost these days. Players makes X amount of money? Fans lose their shit. The game is fine. The league is fine. The players want it more than they ever wanted it. The teams HAVE to spend now. No more cheap teams.
ONce the fans finally get over the sticker shock mentality and get over that your team is going to spend a lot of money on a FA, and that even if that player doesn't live up to the contract, that doesn't mean the grass was definitely greener on the other side. PLayer B in FA wasn't even coming here. So move on and be content with player A.
Sorry, I should be allowed to cap rant once a week especially when someone says they hate the cap...lol.. ill duck out now.
Me? What did I say that was wrong? How many long term contracts are on this offense? The cap is overstated in instances like this. if the Giants had 5-6 whopper long term deals on offense and had the same cap space being displayed I would say they are up against it. They aren't.
Giants are loaded with space. They acted that way last year and will likely go after their guys this year too. They can add the guys they need. Ill be here to say I told you when April rolls around.
It really is amazing. How many years of this shit before we can all call it shit? I think I asked that exact question two years ago in disbelief over the constant excuses and rationalizations. Two years on my disbelief remains.
Giants are loaded with space. They acted that way last year and will likely go after their guys this year too. They can add the guys they need. Ill be here to say I told you when April rolls around.
Why do you insist on confirming how little you understand about the cap on every single thread that it comes up?
Sure, but can't we apply your usual mindset and declare that he's still a young player and -- given his production to date -- he's likely to be come elite?
1) Judge is an upper echelon coach
2) DG / Abrams / the Giants front office are serviceable
Now I want to be clear, these statements could prove to be true but as they currently stand one of these statements is overstated.
We've seen plenty of first year coaches have a lot more success than Judge did right out of the gate.
If the roster is so bad that Judge can't fully display his talents it's because the Giants roster construction abilities are behind even "regular bad" teams. When the previous head coach is fired it almost always means the roster is pretty bad. So if Judge is as good as many talk about him and we had the performance we did, it's because our front office is that bad.
I personally think 1 is more true than 2 but what bothers me is how everyone talks about how good the "team" of DG and Judge were this year. It shouldn't be the job of the head coach to make up for deficiencies in the front office. Especially if those deficiencies are the result of ownership wanting to engage in nepotism and pal around with people they like.
Most importantly, to be real about this high level approach... It will be a surprise if this suddenly starts to work again without major changes, it shouldn't be the expectation
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would be a Gronkowski type. He's nowhere near the level of receiving threat that Gronk was in his prime.
Sure, but can't we apply your usual mindset and declare that he's still a young player and -- given his production to date -- he's likely to be come elite?
a laugh from me...
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5 million in space right now but 40 million next year vs 10 million in space right now but only 5 million next year. which are you taking?
Giants are loaded with space. They acted that way last year and will likely go after their guys this year too. They can add the guys they need. Ill be here to say I told you when April rolls around.
Why do you insist on confirming how little you understand about the cap on every single thread that it comes up?
Really now...ok. So you're telling me that a team that has little LONG term cap tied up is in no better shape than a team that does have long term space tied up?
Wow...that's impossible but good to know. Any other nuggets?
Why does it anger some of you when I point out that NY has plenty of space? Oh, wait, never mind, it's a DG thing.
Carry on. Giants have NO space and are fucked. Feel better?
If it's so easy to add the guys they need -- why didn't they add the guys they needed on offense last year? Serious question.
The answer is they allocated lots of money to guys like Tate, Zeitler, Shepard, and even the ghost on Nate Solder had a 5.6M cap charge.
The Giants added the incomparable Cam Fleming, Dion Lewis, and Levine Toilolo via free agency last year to the offense. And we all saw how that went.
Fucking crushed it, right?
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5 million in space right now but 40 million next year vs 10 million in space right now but only 5 million next year. which are you taking?
Giants are loaded with space. They acted that way last year and will likely go after their guys this year too. They can add the guys they need. Ill be here to say I told you when April rolls around.
Why do you insist on confirming how little you understand about the cap on every single thread that it comes up?
The Giants have more space than these numbers show. Why? Because they have more space coming in 21-22. That's not made up. That's fact. Now, it's also worth mentioning that NY has some young players coming up for new deals around that time, so they certainly have some decisions to make. I never said anything to the contrary.
I don't act like I know more than anyone. What I do know is you're obsessed with DG bashing and my posts saying the Giants aren't in any cap hell must not jive with your agenda or hatred.
Don't like it? Too fucking bad.
Giants are loaded with space. They acted that way last year and will likely go after their guys this year too. They can add the guys they need. Ill be here to say I told you when April rolls around.
This is usually how it goes...
1) Somebody creates a thread or discussion involving salaries, contracts, cap space or the like.
2) Then you come on and put up about 3 or 4 tirade-laced posts about how stupid this whole salary cap thing is and the NYG can sign anybody/everybody they want because its not real.
3) Then one or two posters argue with you that it is indeed real and you simply don't get it.
4) Ultimately, you cave to some logical statement or simply frustration, tell everybody "sorry, and you will bow out" of any further conversations on the topic.
Can you just cut to the chase on this going forward and get to #4 immediately because as Carly Simon would suggest "I haven't got time for the pain"...
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Giants are loaded with space. They acted that way last year and will likely go after their guys this year too. They can add the guys they need. Ill be here to say I told you when April rolls around.
If it's so easy to add the guys they need -- why didn't they add the guys they needed on offense last year? Serious question.
The answer is they allocated lots of money to guys like Tate, Zeitler, Shepard, and even the ghost on Nate Solder had a 5.6M cap charge.
The Giants added the incomparable Cam Fleming, Dion Lewis, and Levine Toilolo via free agency last year to the offense. And we all saw how that went.
Fucking crushed it, right?
WHat the hell does this have to do with anything? Who was available last year? Did the Giants try and miss? Was money the reason why they didn't sign some offensive dynamo? Do you know this? Does anyone here?
The Giants spent a boat load last offseason. They had money. And they have money. They will sign players this off-season, likely on the offensive side.
You're moving the goalposts.
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In comment 15165084 djm said:
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5 million in space right now but 40 million next year vs 10 million in space right now but only 5 million next year. which are you taking?
Giants are loaded with space. They acted that way last year and will likely go after their guys this year too. They can add the guys they need. Ill be here to say I told you when April rolls around.
Why do you insist on confirming how little you understand about the cap on every single thread that it comes up?
Really now...ok. So you're telling me that a team that has little LONG term cap tied up is in no better shape than a team that does have long term space tied up?
Wow...that's impossible but good to know. Any other nuggets?
Why does it anger some of you when I point out that NY has plenty of space? Oh, wait, never mind, it's a DG thing.
Carry on. Giants have NO space and are fucked. Feel better?
The cap needs to be managed with a long-term view, but can only be assembled within that season's cap limits. You keep bringing up the lack of long-term obligations as though that's some sort of fucking feather in anyone's cap, but it doesn't do anything for us THIS year.
You can't just cram infinite players in because you have space next year and the year after. You have to fit everyone under the cap each year. You seriously have no idea how detached from reality your posts sound whenever you talk about the cap.
If you want to go toe to toe on intricacies of the cap, I'm happy to do it whenever you'd like.
Why the hell wouldn't I post that? This stat is misleading. If you don't want to be alerted to facts like this why are you here? Oh wait, I know why, it's to stir shit up and find any reason to bash the GM.
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In comment 15165114 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15165084 djm said:
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5 million in space right now but 40 million next year vs 10 million in space right now but only 5 million next year. which are you taking?
Giants are loaded with space. They acted that way last year and will likely go after their guys this year too. They can add the guys they need. Ill be here to say I told you when April rolls around.
Why do you insist on confirming how little you understand about the cap on every single thread that it comes up?
Really now...ok. So you're telling me that a team that has little LONG term cap tied up is in no better shape than a team that does have long term space tied up?
Wow...that's impossible but good to know. Any other nuggets?
Why does it anger some of you when I point out that NY has plenty of space? Oh, wait, never mind, it's a DG thing.
Carry on. Giants have NO space and are fucked. Feel better?
The cap needs to be managed with a long-term view, but can only be assembled within that season's cap limits. You keep bringing up the lack of long-term obligations as though that's some sort of fucking feather in anyone's cap, but it doesn't do anything for us THIS year.
You can't just cram infinite players in because you have space next year and the year after. You have to fit everyone under the cap each year. You seriously have no idea how detached from reality your posts sound whenever you talk about the cap.
If you want to go toe to toe on intricacies of the cap, I'm happy to do it whenever you'd like.
What on earth are you even talking about.
The Giants committed to ~$130M total dollars last offseason.
You're telling me the Giants and MAra aren't more inclined to spend big long term money this year because they don't have that many long term whoppers on the team?
There's cap economics and business economics at play here. Of course the long term books play a part. How could you suggest otherwise?
Yes, I know the Giants overpaid Rhett Elison and eric thomlinson or whatever his name is. Fine. They overpaid. You win.
They still have more space than this OP suggests.
See you when the Giants sign impact offensive talent in a month or so. Wonder how they pull off the impossible.
See you when the Giants sign impact offensive talent in a month or so. Wonder how they pull off the impossible.
Dude, no one is saying it's impossible.
But they will have to make substantial moves to allow for the immediate-term reality.
The only year's cap that actually applies -- this year. They can be a billion dollars over next year, and it literally doesn't matter right now.
They do have to fit all of their allocations under this year. They are currently very close if not over that number. They will have to cut and/or re-negotiate contracts. They will allocate substantive dead money to players not on the team because of bad prior deals.
They're going to pull that off by cutting several players -- Tate, Solder, Toilolo, Core and potentially Zetiler.
Of course you have to fit into every cap figure every year. That's common sense. And you damn well know there are ways to move money around. ways to get under the cap. The less long term money the easier that is. You know what I meant.
NAte Solder's cap hit is huge. IT's also for 1-2 years, 2 tops. That's a factor! Same with Zielter. If those guys were 2-3 years longer in the contract tooth we'd be in a tougher spot right now even if the cap number was the same this season. You can't possibly question that.
Whatever, we've been over this misses from DG. I'm tired and hungry.
I think they have more than enough money where they can win if they allocate it well and hit on their moves.
The problem is when you are talking about the Giants as if they are adept at doing this and we can expect them to deftly navigate the cap.
I think the particular relevance to looking at this thread specifically is how poorly the dollars they allocated to the offense turned out this past year.
Sure, this cap situation is absolutely a situation that a team could create a winner in 2/3 years. But honestly even teams in the worst cap shape can put together a winning team in 2/3 years. It's actually quite easy to just take one season picking in the top 10 as the Giants have had many of and to fix your cap situation in a lasting way.
I think the real question is why would anyone believe that we should have faith in the Giants to allocate resources well?
Seems like you focus on the possible and ignore the probable.
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5 million in space right now but 40 million next year vs 10 million in space right now but only 5 million next year. which are you taking?
Giants are loaded with space. They acted that way last year and will likely go after their guys this year too. They can add the guys they need. Ill be here to say I told you when April rolls around.
This is usually how it goes...
1) Somebody creates a thread or discussion involving salaries, contracts, cap space or the like.
2) Then you come on and put up about 3 or 4 tirade-laced posts about how stupid this whole salary cap thing is and the NYG can sign anybody/everybody they want because its not real.
3) Then one or two posters argue with you that it is indeed real and you simply don't get it.
4) Ultimately, you cave to some logical statement or simply frustration, tell everybody "sorry, and you will bow out" of any further conversations on the topic.
Can you just cut to the chase on this going forward and get to #4 immediately because as Carly Simon would suggest "I haven't got time for the pain"...
Did you get to #4 yet?
You're telling me the Giants and MAra aren't more inclined to spend big long term money this year because they don't have that many long term whoppers on the team?
There's cap economics and business economics at play here. Of course the long term books play a part. How could you suggest otherwise?
Yes, I know the Giants overpaid Rhett Elison and eric thomlinson or whatever his name is. Fine. They overpaid. You win.
They still have more space than this OP suggests.
Here we go again with them having more space than what they actually have according to - THE VALID, EXECUTED PLAYER CONTRACTS THAT THEY HAVE ON THE BOOKS FOR 2021.
You sound like a lunatic. Strap on your tin foil hat. Or should I say, your tin foil cap?
Team A cap space of 10 million but tons open up in 21-22.
Team B cap space of 10 million but tons of problems in 21-22.
Which team LIKELY spends more this off-season or it at least inclined to spend more this off-season if so desired?
That's my point. It's definitely a factor.