I’m not someone who continuously slams Gettleman, but this is indefensible. The amount of recent draft picks and FA signings which have gone towards the offense should suggest much better production.
This makes me nervous as we head into FA where it is clear that DG & company will be addressing the offense, again.
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Team A cap space of 10 million but tons open up in 21-22.
Team B cap space of 10 million but tons of problems in 21-22.
Which team LIKELY spends more this off-season or it at least inclined to spend more this off-season if so desired?
That's my point. It's definitely a factor.
Hey dunk boy, read this and tell me I am out of touch or wrong. Please. I could use a good laugh.
Never said they didn't have to adhere to a fixed cap. NOT ONE FUCKING TIME.
I said you can get creative ESPECIALLY with less long term cap money on the books. And you know this to be true.
Now, fuck off.
The Giants have more space than these numbers show. Why? Because they have more space coming in 21-22. That's not made up. That's fact. Now, it's also worth mentioning that NY has some young players coming up for new deals around that time, so they certainly have some decisions to make. I never said anything to the contrary.
I don't act like I know more than anyone. What I do know is you're obsessed with DG bashing and my posts saying the Giants aren't in any cap hell must not jive with your agenda or hatred.
Don't like it? Too fucking bad.
The Giants are in "organizational hell". And much of that is driven by Gettleman and his:
-- average to below average drafting
-- poor free agent decisions - personnel and contracts
-- "old school" philosophies
-- cap management
Cap space in the out years is unpredictable. We have Barkley coming up. A Jones decision. Perhaps LW if he gets the FT again. Etc.
The best play is always try to pay the right players at the most influential positions and pivot as soon as possible when a situation goes sideways.
But continue to think we live in a "soft cap" and there is "always" more to spend.
I wasn’t disputing that 7th in Oncap space isn’t a bad return on investment.
Whatever, I promised I wouldn’t torpedo cap threads anymore so I’m sorry for this. Wasn’t my intention. I said my peace and feel strongly that the lack of future big money is a factor and will be a factor this offseason. Sports writers have absolutely said this as well. Maybe I didn’t convey things correctly.
I’ll take back the fuck off comment to you Gatorade but calling someone a lunatic tends to get one angry. Peace.
Read my posts again. Try and read.
The space they have in 2022/2023 doesn't address the issue -- they are either at or over the likely 2021 salary cap, and they will have to cut or re-structure several players, to retain or add good players.
Most urgently, the Giants are up against the real possibility of franchising tagging Leonard Williams on a 2nd tender, at 19.3M dollars. Real, huge money, all owed this year.
Players will require compensation in 2021. The Giants will need to spend meaningful dollar this year to improve their talent.
The space they have in 2022/2023 doesn't address the issue -- they are either at or over the likely 2021 salary cap, and they will have to cut or re-structure several players, to retain or add good players.
Most urgently, the Giants are up against the real possibility of franchising tagging Leonard Williams on a 2nd tender, at 19.3M dollars. Real, huge money, all owed this year.
Players will require compensation in 2021. The Giants will need to spend meaningful dollar this year to improve their talent.
Understood and agreed. And I’ll be cranky if they tag Williams again.
Of course you have to fit into every cap figure every year. That's common sense. And you damn well know there are ways to move money around. ways to get under the cap. The less long term money the easier that is. You know what I meant.
NAte Solder's cap hit is huge. IT's also for 1-2 years, 2 tops. That's a factor! Same with Zielter. If those guys were 2-3 years longer in the contract tooth we'd be in a tougher spot right now even if the cap number was the same this season. You can't possibly question that.
Whatever, we've been over this misses from DG. I'm tired and hungry.
Let me give you an example of what happens when teams manage the cap as you suggest.
DG signs Patrick Omameh in 2018 to a 3 year/$15M contract ($5.5M guaranteed), which is no one's idea of a cap-busting contract, but also not an insignificant amount. Omameh so rapidly demonstrates that he is an absolute bust that he doesn't make it through one full season with NYG. Omameh's contract is terminated, and his guaranteed money becomes "dead money" of which $3.3M is charged against the Giants' 2019 cap.
In 2019, DG decides to undergo a dead money purge, clearing out several contracts and playing that season with the 2nd most dead money in the league. Not surprisingly, the Giants are putrid as they trot out a roster that is carrying $55M in dead money instead of using that money on players.
As injuries mount, it becomes clear that DG has taken on more dead money than he can functionally carry in order to maintain the roster and make some late-season personnel transactions. $3.3M of this dead money is attributable to the Omameh contract.
In order to manage the roster in-season and stay under the cap, DG converts salary to bonus for two players whose contracts can absorb such a move: Rhett Ellison and Nate Solder. Both are aging vets and both had underachieved with the Giants, but DG didn't have many options. This frees up $6M in space for 2019, but results in Ellison's 2020 cap hit increasing by $1M, and Solder's hit in 2020 and 2021 increasing by $2.5M each (when Solder opted out for 2020, this moved to 2021 and 2022). At least one (if not both) of these restructures would not have been necessary if the Giants were not carrying dead money from Omameh in 2019.
Rhett Ellison retired after the 2019 season, shifting his remaining bonus (including the newly restructured amount) to dead money for 2020. The Giants carried a $2.2M cap hit for Ellison last season, with $1M of it due to his 2019 restructure. This money, had it not been charged as dead money in 2020, would have rolled over as available cap space for 2021.
Now we approach free agency for 2021, faced with the challenge to re-sign Leonard Williams, but armed with $3.5M less in cap room this offseason (-$1M for the Ellison dead money hit that would have rolled over into 2021, -$2.5M for the higher cap hit that Solder is carrying now because of his 2019 restructure), and must navigate the salary cap in such a way that they can operate effectively to improve their roster for the upcoming season. In order to free up additional money that they can use to sign free agents, they may need to restructure someone like Zeitler, who is also an aging veteran, just like Ellison and Solder were - this will likely decrease cap space in 2022.
As an indirect result of a bad signing in 2018 (Omameh), we are continuing to kick cap obligations into the future and borrow against future years in order to operate. This is the salary cap equivalent of living paycheck to paycheck and using your credit cards to manage unforeseen circumstances.
In every thread that involves the cap, you claim that the Giants can always create room if they need it, and that's true, but it results in less cap room in that future year, and increased dead money liability (especially since the contracts that are typically restructured to create space are older veterans who have high salaries to begin with). A year from now, if Zeitler's play falls off a cliff or if he chooses to retire (neither one of those possibilities being completely remote), the Giants will incur however much dead money in an amount equal to whatever they open up to operate this offseason.
Hopefully, this example helps illustrate for you that not only is it risky to always be borrowing from future years in order to create cap space, but that signing bad players, even those who receive moderate contracts (like Omameh) can have downstream implications that drag on your salary cap for multiple years.
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The immediate and medium term are equally important when managing the cap.
The space they have in 2022/2023 doesn't address the issue -- they are either at or over the likely 2021 salary cap, and they will have to cut or re-structure several players, to retain or add good players.
Most urgently, the Giants are up against the real possibility of franchising tagging Leonard Williams on a 2nd tender, at 19.3M dollars. Real, huge money, all owed this year.
Players will require compensation in 2021. The Giants will need to spend meaningful dollar this year to improve their talent.
Understood and agreed. And I’ll be cranky if they tag Williams again.
I'm actually quite bullish on this offseason. The Giants were able to add 4 pretty good players on longterm deals last year -- Bradberry, Martinez, Ryan, and Gano -- with a total 2020 cap hit of 30M.
They should be able to replicate the same kind of talent retention/acquisition.
I think with some cuts, they'll be able to retain one of their defensive tackles, add a good interior offensive lineman, a quality WR, and a blocking TE.
2) Nor how willing they are to let some people go
3) Nor which players have higher risk of physical degradation or breakdown but the NYG do not wish to share that information.
4) Nor what they suspect other teams will do either tagging/renegotiating or letting their players go.
We do know five things:
A) All GMs and all teams and all fans of their teams have 4-10 guys they think are overpaid relative to performance at this time. 100% of all GM's, fans and teams. Every year.
B) All Fans of all teams cannot know what options their were or are.
C) Last year many of the new NYG contracts were shorter than the past and limited risk in the out years if a player had to be released. Better contract practices for more (but im sure not all) of the contracts.
D) All fans get mad when a player used to be worth it but wasn't on the last play.
E) Optimists will be optimistic dreamers stuck on flashes and factoids and guys who want to rummage in buckets of old fish will insist brand new fish buckets will be just like the past buckets of old fish.
Both will be right 50% of the time in a league where every line and RB play is the equivalent damage to the bodies as being in a 35mph car crash, the average career is 4 years, 50% of selections dont get to play more than partially in a year and the ten year average winning percentage of 32 teams is 50%.
Like many an internet discussion, it thrives because no one knows and everyone has what looks like a counterfactual debating point.
This dead zone in the calendar of football fodder is boring and frustrating for us all.
Omameh sucked as a player, but to say the signing was somehow a cap horror show would be a massive massive stretch.
We aren’t going to not sign Leonard Williams based on having 1-4M dollars of space. They will be able to move stuff around if need be.
This isn’t the NBA - teams can create space however they need to. Now - if we had a bunch of contracts like Solder that would be one thing. But we don’t. We have 1 contract like that.
Saquon Barkley is an elite player when healthy, we’ve seen it. I’m not sure what you are getting at.
Quote:
I never professed or said i wanted to go toe to toe. I don't act like I know every detail with the cap. You do.
Of course you have to fit into every cap figure every year. That's common sense. And you damn well know there are ways to move money around. ways to get under the cap. The less long term money the easier that is. You know what I meant.
NAte Solder's cap hit is huge. IT's also for 1-2 years, 2 tops. That's a factor! Same with Zielter. If those guys were 2-3 years longer in the contract tooth we'd be in a tougher spot right now even if the cap number was the same this season. You can't possibly question that.
Whatever, we've been over this misses from DG. I'm tired and hungry.
Let me give you an example of what happens when teams manage the cap as you suggest.
DG signs Patrick Omameh in 2018 to a 3 year/$15M contract ($5.5M guaranteed), which is no one's idea of a cap-busting contract, but also not an insignificant amount. Omameh so rapidly demonstrates that he is an absolute bust that he doesn't make it through one full season with NYG. Omameh's contract is terminated, and his guaranteed money becomes "dead money" of which $3.3M is charged against the Giants' 2019 cap.
In 2019, DG decides to undergo a dead money purge, clearing out several contracts and playing that season with the 2nd most dead money in the league. Not surprisingly, the Giants are putrid as they trot out a roster that is carrying $55M in dead money instead of using that money on players.
As injuries mount, it becomes clear that DG has taken on more dead money than he can functionally carry in order to maintain the roster and make some late-season personnel transactions. $3.3M of this dead money is attributable to the Omameh contract.
In order to manage the roster in-season and stay under the cap, DG converts salary to bonus for two players whose contracts can absorb such a move: Rhett Ellison and Nate Solder. Both are aging vets and both had underachieved with the Giants, but DG didn't have many options. This frees up $6M in space for 2019, but results in Ellison's 2020 cap hit increasing by $1M, and Solder's hit in 2020 and 2021 increasing by $2.5M each (when Solder opted out for 2020, this moved to 2021 and 2022). At least one (if not both) of these restructures would not have been necessary if the Giants were not carrying dead money from Omameh in 2019.
Rhett Ellison retired after the 2019 season, shifting his remaining bonus (including the newly restructured amount) to dead money for 2020. The Giants carried a $2.2M cap hit for Ellison last season, with $1M of it due to his 2019 restructure. This money, had it not been charged as dead money in 2020, would have rolled over as available cap space for 2021.
Now we approach free agency for 2021, faced with the challenge to re-sign Leonard Williams, but armed with $3.5M less in cap room this offseason (-$1M for the Ellison dead money hit that would have rolled over into 2021, -$2.5M for the higher cap hit that Solder is carrying now because of his 2019 restructure), and must navigate the salary cap in such a way that they can operate effectively to improve their roster for the upcoming season. In order to free up additional money that they can use to sign free agents, they may need to restructure someone like Zeitler, who is also an aging veteran, just like Ellison and Solder were - this will likely decrease cap space in 2022.
As an indirect result of a bad signing in 2018 (Omameh), we are continuing to kick cap obligations into the future and borrow against future years in order to operate. This is the salary cap equivalent of living paycheck to paycheck and using your credit cards to manage unforeseen circumstances.
In every thread that involves the cap, you claim that the Giants can always create room if they need it, and that's true, but it results in less cap room in that future year, and increased dead money liability (especially since the contracts that are typically restructured to create space are older veterans who have high salaries to begin with). A year from now, if Zeitler's play falls off a cliff or if he chooses to retire (neither one of those possibilities being completely remote), the Giants will incur however much dead money in an amount equal to whatever they open up to operate this offseason.
Hopefully, this example helps illustrate for you that not only is it risky to always be borrowing from future years in order to create cap space, but that signing bad players, even those who receive moderate contracts (like Omameh) can have downstream implications that drag on your salary cap for multiple years.
Appreciate the point. I don’t disagree with any of this.
Really in the end we need to hit more drafts. It always goes back to this. Better drafts means less desperation. Overall I do think the giants have been better if even slightly at bringing in young talent the last few years, be it the draft and udfa. Hopefully it wasn’t a mirage and it continues.
Saquon Barkley is an elite player when healthy, we’ve seen it. I’m not sure what you are getting at.
FMIC brought up Hockenson because I wanted to draft him at the 6 spot in 2019. Instead we took Jones.