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Is OG a top 4 need on this team?

adamg : 3/2/2021 11:28 pm
Starting outside CB, #1 WR, ER...

Then is it OG? Hernandez and Lemieux don't seem to cut it; Zeitler might be a cap casualty...
Yes  
90.Cal : 3/2/2021 11:44 pm : link
.
I think we fans can decide the top 4 needs  
81_Great_Dane : 3/2/2021 11:47 pm : link
but it has little to do with how the coaches and GM will see their needs. They have to think 2-3 years out, gauge development of the guys at the bottom of the roster and the practice squad, manage the cap -- al of that on top of assembling the current roster.

Some things are obvious: They need to improve their pass rush, and their O-line, and their wide receivers. So I guess that's three. But is "improve the O-line" as specific as guard vs. tackle? Hard to say. Would you take a top OC prospect and skip a guard? Or take a developmental lineman who might start inside and later move out to tackle, the way David Diehl did?

It's a fun topic as long as we don't mistake our opinions for the reality that the front office is working with.
Top 3 needs are obvious  
Breeze_94 : 3/3/2021 12:08 am : link
EDGE, WR, CB2.

After that it could be
- OG if they move on from Zeitler
- DL if Tomlinson walks
- RT if they don't believe in Peart and Fleming is gone
- TE if they move on from Engram (as stated in another thread, I'd rather cut Engram if it means keeping Tomlinson)

Also think RB2 is a big hole with Saquon coming back from an ACL and Gallman/Freeman/Lewis/Morris all set to hit FA...not sure any of those 4 is back
I agree with your list!  
Leg of Theismann : 3/3/2021 12:59 am : link
However, I will say one thing: I don't care as much about what order they are in, I just hope that they are ordered based on an actual coherent vision and plan (particularly with regards to scheme). Just as an example: if Graham doesn't think he'd benefit as much from a big money 'tweener-type of Edge rusher (vs. some other player), I hope his voice is heard (not saying he's saying that btw, just making up an example). Because it's insane how DG and Shurmur/Bettcher were nowhere near being on the same page re: aligning the grocery shopping with the meal that was being cooked. One of the main reasons the Pats were a dynasty for 2 decades was because BB's vision as a GM and HC were aligned (because he's one guy lol), which I know only worked b/c he's so good at both jobs, but still-- I think that's hugely important to look at.

Case and point: Deandre Baker. The fact that we traded up for him when his claim to fame was man-coverage, and then all Bettcher did was use him in zone. How did that even happen? Meanwhile there were about 3 other corners on the board of similar value, yet DG still traded up and got the guy who didn't even fit the scheme (not to mention had "character issues" even though we were trading and cutting proven vets left and right to improve "culture"). I know hindsight is 20/20, but even I knew at the time that Baker was a man-coverage player and didn't do much else in college, so it's just crazy how far off script that pick was.

I'm just using that as one example that was particularly mind-boggling (even at the time), and I say all this not to be negative, but actually to say that it seems like last year the draft and FA acquisitions ended up making a little more sense based on the schemes and game plans we eventually saw (particularly on defense with Graham). I'm hoping that this is because Judge is perhaps good at facilitating discussion between GM and coaching staff-- i.e. it seems he's a bit better at communicating the coordinators' needs to DG, and communicating DG's analysis back to the coordinators, all while keeping a coherent vision. I think this comes back to Judge's unique skill set as a HC, and even particularly as a past ST coordinator possibly.

It's incredibly important in developing a "needs-list" for an NFL HC and GM to not only have a coherent vision for the scheme and game plan, but also for the character and style of football the team is going to play. I trust Judge has this "6th sense" required to be eventually be Great. We certainly didn't have that with Shurmur, and for this reason I'm glad that Judge has already been insistent on having so much input on the player acquisition part of the process.
RE: Top 3 needs are obvious  
BelieveJJ : 3/3/2021 1:06 am : link
In comment 15165495 Breeze_94 said:
Quote:
EDGE, WR, CB2.

After that it could be
- OG if they move on from Zeitler
- DL if Tomlinson walks
- RT if they don't believe in Peart and Fleming is gone
- TE if they move on from Engram (as stated in another thread, I'd rather cut Engram if it means keeping Tomlinson)

Also think RB2 is a big hole with Saquon coming back from an ACL and Gallman/Freeman/Lewis/Morris all set to hit FA...not sure any of those 4 is back


RIGHT NOW, OG IS NOT.

Because Tomlinson and Williams are FAs, Carter and Ximines returning from surgery and Fckrell an FA, and the WRs badly need an upgrade.

Right now, you assume Zeitler, Hernandez, and Lemieux are all signed under contract and available for 2021.

Keep.in mind this team has only ONE viable RB, and he's coming back from ACL surgery.


RB is a bigger NEED than OG, and then there's CB, Edge, DT (until someone or another re-signs) and even 2nd ILB.

With all respect to Tae Crowder,


ARE YOU KIDDING ME?
RE: RE: Top 3 needs are obvious  
Leg of Theismann : 3/3/2021 1:23 am : link
In comment 15165505 BelieveJJ said:
Quote:
In comment 15165495 Breeze_94 said:


Quote:


EDGE, WR, CB2.

After that it could be
- OG if they move on from Zeitler
- DL if Tomlinson walks
- RT if they don't believe in Peart and Fleming is gone
- TE if they move on from Engram (as stated in another thread, I'd rather cut Engram if it means keeping Tomlinson)

Also think RB2 is a big hole with Saquon coming back from an ACL and Gallman/Freeman/Lewis/Morris all set to hit FA...not sure any of those 4 is back



RIGHT NOW, OG IS NOT.

Because Tomlinson and Williams are FAs, Carter and Ximines returning from surgery and Fckrell an FA, and the WRs badly need an upgrade.

Right now, you assume Zeitler, Hernandez, and Lemieux are all signed under contract and available for 2021.

Keep.in mind this team has only ONE viable RB, and he's coming back from ACL surgery.


RB is a bigger NEED than OG, and then there's CB, Edge, DT (until someone or another re-signs) and even 2nd ILB.

With all respect to Tae Crowder,


ARE YOU KIDDING ME?


I disagree a bit w/ your comments re: RB. We have Saquon, and yes we need depth at RB for sure, but it seems like every year there's some 2nd or 3rd string late-round RB who wows us and will probably do just fine as depth. Not saying we can be entirely nonchalant about it, but I'm just saying it's not a huge NEED compared to having depth on the OL. If you have an OG out it's way harder to avoid an opposing defense exploiting that and blowing up your whole game plan than it is with an RB out.
Imo  
Bill2 : 3/3/2021 2:13 am : link
Yes
RE: RE: RE: Top 3 needs are obvious  
BelieveJJ : 3/3/2021 3:44 am : link
In comment 15165511 Leg of Theismann said:
Quote:


I disagree a bit w/ your comments re: RB. We have Saquon, and yes we need depth at RB for sure, but it seems like every year there's some 2nd or 3rd string late-round RB who wows us and will probably do just fine as depth. Not saying we can be entirely nonchalant about it, but I'm just saying it's not a huge NEED compared to having depth on the OL. If you have an OG out it's way harder to avoid an opposing defense exploiting that and blowing up your whole game plan than it is with an RB out.


It's fine to see things differently, but I kinda prefer to stay in the moment on questions like this... UNTIL

1) Saquon is actually back healthy and playing at a high level.

Remember Victor Cruz? Puff and its gone... Not for long.

2) At least One of our two FA DTs is re-signed, we are looking at BJ Hill, Dexter Lawrence, and RJ McIntosh as our ONLY DL.

(Johnson is an FA too now.)

3) I agree there are lots of RBs to be had, both in the draft and better yet as FAs, its a ripe market. But until we sign one or two, we don't have ANYONE behind Saquon, and Saquon is far from a sure thing!

We do actually have 3 OG with starting NFL experience, in Z's and Will's case a darn good bit of starting experience. Now IF DG pushes Z out the door, that's another story. But for now he's a decent player, even if at an over the top salary rate for his performance level.



The Giants have no healthy RBs under contract.  
Big Blue Blogger : 3/3/2021 5:33 am : link
They have no backup QB, unless they know something about Clayton Thorson that eluded the Eagles and Cowboys.

Guard might be a pressing need, or it might not be a need at all. The three guys who played extensively in 2020 are still under contract. Until that changes, we have no idea whether the Giants are comfortable with their top guards or not. Kenny Wiggins is still around as veteran depth, and Kyle Murphy might turn into something. None of this looks great - on paper or on the field - but it may not be a need.
.  
Bill2 : 3/3/2021 5:33 am : link
A passer who has a pocket he can step into has;

1) more time

2) more velocity and accuracy because he can step into the throw

3) More sight lines into the passing lanes

4) more running lanes

5) A chance at a more dependable power running game vital to the run pass options and the current NFL average time to pass and the average length of a planned pass.

6) More time for more receivers to get separation and or vertical.

Sound like things we could use?

Imo, since coming straight up the middle is more and more the way defenses try to disrupt good QB's...better than average guard play seems like a feature of many differentiating playoff winning teams.

Imo
Bill2: I think defenses attack weaknesses.  
Big Blue Blogger : 3/3/2021 5:41 am : link
Guards tend to be weaker pass protectors than tackles, and the shortest route to the QB is up the middle. On the other hand, look what the Bucs did to the Chiefs with pressure off the edge, because that’s where KC was most vulnerable. As bad as Lemieux’s pass-blocking was, he was only one bad part of a very big problem.
Finally fixing OL is a top need imo  
George from PA : 3/3/2021 5:48 am : link
Limiting plays...due to lack of time.....is not how an offense should run.

Getting the RT/swing T might be slightly higher then figuring out the starting guards.....depends on how the guards are viewed.

Peart will either be a decent swing tackle or a developmental RT.....he has shown enough potential....

I am just not sure besides Zeitler...what they have at guard,..

I am glad our coaches have had a full year(although stranger due to corvid)...to determine current state of roster.....which is the 1st hurdle of a new staff.





Leg of Theismann  
George from PA : 3/3/2021 5:57 am : link
You do know that Bettcher was a press man D-coordinator at Arizona.

Granted, no Patrick Peterson....hell, no Bradberry either.

why he played so much zone? ....I suspect due to lack of FS....and the corners not playing great. Baker played far better when in man to man press corner....lack of pass rush.


That defense killed Shummer whose offense was actually better then current.
RE: Bill2: I think defenses attack weaknesses.  
section125 : 3/3/2021 6:00 am : link
In comment 15165523 Big Blue Blogger said:
Quote:
Guards tend to be weaker pass protectors than tackles, and the shortest route to the QB is up the middle. On the other hand, look what the Bucs did to the Chiefs with pressure off the edge, because that’s where KC was most vulnerable. As bad as Lemieux’s pass-blocking was, he was only one bad part of a very big problem.


What Tampa did against Green Bay and Kansas City was attack the edge where there was a absolute weakness = back up LTs. Even if you say guards are weaker against the pass rush it really levels out because DTs are generally weaker at rushing the passer than outside guys. The routes are completely different to the QB.

Defenses will attack the weakest point on the line, that is why they tried so many stunts against Lemieux and that is where he seemed to be weakest at - picking up stunts.

I agree the top 3 weaknesses are WR, ER and CB2. But I would think that RT is right up there with OG close behind. RT may be higher. At least in Zeitler, Hernandez and Lemieux you can have a chance at functional guards.

I could argue that TE and ILB are weaknesses too.

The question with the line is what does the staff see from Peart, Lemieux, Hernandez, Murphy et al - and you can include Zeitler. There were games where Peart looked smoother than Thomas, even with faulty technique.
OG is a top 2 need  
BillT : 3/3/2021 6:51 am : link
WR, OG (or maybe OT depending on what they think of Peart). I don’t think CB is a top 4 need. WR, OG/OT, TE, EDGE. People don’t seem to get we’re 5 deep in quality DBs. Bradbury, Peppers, McKinney, Ryan and Holmes. And we’re primarily playing a three safety look so we are in good shape in the secondary.
I think in the draft we will go with #11 WR followed by OG and TE  
SGMen : 3/3/2021 7:14 am : link
Why, I think there should be value for those three positions when we pick. In the fourth I see us taking a RB.

That means we fix the offense (or try to) in this draft just because there should be value at those positions.

Sure, we need an EDGE rusher but I see us retaining our UFA's and perhaps praying that our youth develops a bit. Remember, Carter and Ximines were both injured last year and rookies played sparingly. None is a stud rusher but perhaps can get enough done until 2022 off-season when we should have good money to spend.
Good post SG  
BillT : 3/3/2021 7:17 am : link
And not only will there be value at those positions but that value will meet our biggest needs as well.
Definitely  
Lines of Scrimmage : 3/3/2021 7:31 am : link
If the Giants have not learned the value of having a strong line with depth over the last ten years..........

They did have two players get Covid but there were no major injuries last year on the OL. A injury or two with what they have will be another lost season and will compromise Jones being objectively evaluated.

I like to see one added in the 2-4 round range and then a couple more with the later picks and UDFA.

They may be able to find a stopgap with a veteran being cut as we are seeing teams start to get rid of higher salary players. Let's hope the new OL coach turns out to be one of the really good ones.
I think we meed 2 WR  
allstarjim : 3/3/2021 7:36 am : link
Since I believe Shep is a slot, WR 1 and WR 2 are both needs. Edge and ILB is a need. CB2. And TE.

I believe OG is a need for 2022, in case Lemieux doesn't work out. The team may not elect to re-sign Hernandez, and Zeitler will probably not be re-signed.

I'd kind of put OG as a tie with TE, ILB, and CB2, with the priority needs being WR and Edge. Therefore, sure, it's a top 4 need, tied with everything else other than our two priority positions.

Just pick for value.
I can agree  
Bill2 : 3/3/2021 7:55 am : link
That depending on what comes free an OT or OG is very important.

I also agree that is isn't the most important need
Actually it may be fair to say WR is the top need and  
Jimmy Googs : 3/3/2021 7:56 am : link
TE, RB, OG, RT, ER/OLB, ILB and CB are all very close just behind it...

But maybe some of you all  
Jimmy Googs : 3/3/2021 7:58 am : link
see a better overall roster than I do...
A guy I would love the Giants to make a run at this free agency  
nyjuggernaut2 : 3/3/2021 8:27 am : link
is Brandon Schreff from Washington. He's a top 5 OG in the game, and any time you can snag a top player from a divisional opponent is always a plus!
I’m not so sure OG is a top need.....  
Simms11 : 3/3/2021 9:00 am : link
It’d be nice to get another solid Olineman, but I think Hernandez, Lemieux and Zeitler are all fairly solid. Zeitler was one of the better lineman last year and he’s a vet. The line needs stability at this point. I also think Lemieux will get better in pass pro. I think the new Oline coach along with Flats will be able to get him straightened out to the point where he can be an effective pass blocker, as well. I also wonder if the newly signed Harrison can play Guard?
RE: Top 3 needs are obvious  
Old Blue : 3/3/2021 9:06 am : link
In comment 15165495 Breeze_94 said:
Quote:
EDGE, WR, CB2.

After that it could be
- OG if they move on from Zeitler
- DL if Tomlinson walks
- RT if they don't believe in Peart and Fleming is gone
- TE if they move on from Engram (as stated in another thread, I'd rather cut Engram if it means keeping Tomlinson)



Also think RB2 is a big hole with Saquon coming back from an ACL and Gallman/Freeman/Lewis/Morris all set to hit FA...not sure any of those 4 is back




Oline, Oline, and Oline are the top 3 needs for this team. If Humpty Dumpty Oline isn’t fixed nothing else matters.
I'd love to say no, but yeah I think it is  
Biteymax22 : 3/3/2021 9:22 am : link
WR and Edge are by far our top 2 and I don't think that's debatable. After that CB, OG, OT and TE are all in the debate, but I'd say OG is in the top 4. Look at the players we have there:

- Zeitler: Cap # may make him a casualty. Also an older player who may regress
- Hernandez: Benched last year, not under contract next year
- Lemieux: Young player who may develop, not a guarantee
- Murphy: UDFA that was on the roster but didn't play

While there are a couple young guys there with some promise there isn't anything to say this is a strong position group and specifically, we're not in good long term shape at guard as of right now.
Offensive Guards  
chick310 : 3/3/2021 9:24 am : link
Which seem more plausible in 2021?

Kevin Zeitler playing at an above average level for the entire season, or displaying that he is declining quickly?

Will Hernandez bouncing back and performing like his 2018 rookie year, or continuing his trend as a JAG?

Shane Lemieux displaying adequate enough pass protection skills, or continuing to show that will be a liability in his game?
We have 6 positional needs  
M.S. : 3/3/2021 9:28 am : link

That are in the Top 4.

(:-(
Yes  
VanillaVick : 3/3/2021 10:08 am : link
But I think it can be easily addressed in the 3rd rd.
RE: Yes  
Jimmy Googs : 3/3/2021 10:11 am : link
In comment 15165638 VanillaVick said:
Quote:
But I think it can be easily addressed in the 3rd rd.


The NYG don't address ANYTHING easily in the 3rd round...
RE: We have 6 positional needs  
BelieveJJ : 3/3/2021 10:27 am : link
In comment 15165597 M.S. said:
Quote:

That are in the Top 4.

(:-(


FTW!
Units vs poistions  
Colin@gbn : 3/3/2021 10:55 am : link
Morning guys: Interesting discussion and very timely given the draft is now just 57 days away! I jest. In fact, I think that the Great Dane at the top of the thread is the closest to reality. One can argue the ‘top needs’ ad nauseum for the next 57 days, but it really isn’t the way the draft works. It also doesn’t appear to be the way the Giants plan is evolving. They got their QB in 2019, although obviously the jury is still out on Jones. They addressed the OL in 2020 on which they used 3 of their first 5 picks including 2 premium picks. They also inserted a second-year former undrafted rookie at C and extended him. Again the jury is still out and we’ll probably see some tweaking up front but my best guess is that the plan for the OL is to see what they have through the in 2021.

It also appears from the various FO comments that the primary goal this off-season is to add some big-play weapons to the offense. So it certainly shouldn't be a shock if - like last year with the OL - that the Giants use as many as 2-3 early picks on receivers. In the opening round my best guess is that they go in with the hope of getting one of the 4 top ten receivers (Chase, Pitts, Smith and Waddle). Most likely they sit tight as long as two of those guys are still on the board. If it gets down to one - and I don't want to give anyone indigestion here - but they may very well think about trading up. Its how the draft works. On the other hand, if you do get past Detroit at #7 with only one receiver left on the board you may let it ride as it appears that Carolina, Denver and Dallas have much bigger needs at other positions (with quality players on the board that address those needs.)

What would it cost to move up. Probably a 3rd. And I know there will be people out there that will moan that the Giants have too many holes to be trading away picks, but I believe if it comes to it it becomes a question of quality over quantity as how many holes is a rookie 3rd rounder going to fill anyway. Fact is that if one wants to ‘fix’ a position one pretty much has to do it in the first two rounds. After that you are really looking at guys who you have to plan are going to be more depth or rotational players. Some may turn out to be starting quality players but you just can’t plan on it. Want to plug a hole, sign a free agent.

Option B for the Giants though if they didn't get one of those top 4 receivers at #11 - and it looks to me as if the odds are about 50-50 that one will be available - is to take the next best thing at that spot, most likely either a Surtain/Farley at CB or a Slater at G/T, and then load up on receivers in rounds 2-3-4. In fact, as noted above it wouldn't surprise me if the Giants loaded up on receivers in those rounds even if they did get one of those top 4 guys at #11. It's how you build a unit, although they are going to stick with their board and aren't going to pass on a higher value player at another position.

Back to the OL for a moment. I certainly wouldn’t rule out the Giants taking an OL in the first two rounds, but it would more the case of a guy being a true best player available. Maybe Slater in the first if they had a top 5-6 grade on him. And the second round is intriguing because there likely will be 2-3 starting quality OL such as Wyatt Davis, Creed Humphrey and/or alex Leatherwood available around the 40th pick. Problem – not really – is that there will also be starting quality WRs and corners available at that time but those OL might be hard to pass on.

Just 57 days to go!!
I don't know how this can't be...  
bw in dc : 3/3/2021 11:00 am : link
an overwhelming YES. Because who really feels great about the OL right now?

As usual, we have question marks all across the line.

-- LT: Thomas flashed in the second half of the season but he never really dominated a game like I'd expect a top draft choice to do. So who knows what we have yet here...
-- LG: Hernandez and Lemieux were more bad than good.
-- C: Best offensive player this year. A one time thing or is this the beginning of a budding career? Anybody's guess is as good as mine here...
-- RG: Zeitler looks like he's clearly on the back nine of his career.
-- RT: Solder/Peart/Flemming...at best, these are average players right now.

I mean, do you need anymore evidence?

So we enter another off-season with more uncertainly at one of the most important units in football...
Yes, and if not addressed this year...  
sb from NYT Forum : 3/3/2021 11:04 am : link
...it will be a top 1 or 2 need next year.

Zietler is a FA after this year and I don't see the Giants resigning him.

Hernandez has been below average the past two years. Even if he starts this year, I doubt he gets a 2nd contract.

So that only leaves Lemieux. So yeah, OG is a big need.

RE: I don't know how this can't be...  
BelieveJJ : 3/3/2021 1:57 pm : link
In comment 15165699 bw in dc said:
Quote:
an overwhelming YES. Because who really feels great about the OL right now?

As usual, we have question marks all across the line.

-- LT: Thomas flashed in the second half of the season but he never really dominated a game like I'd expect a top draft choice to do. So who knows what we have yet here...
-- LG: Hernandez and Lemieux were more bad than good.
-- C: Best offensive player this year. A one time thing or is this the beginning of a budding career? Anybody's guess is as good as mine here...
-- RG: Zeitler looks like he's clearly on the back nine of his career.
-- RT: Solder/Peart/Flemming...at best, these are average players right now.

I mean, do you need anymore evidence?

So we enter another off-season with more uncertainly at one of the most important units in football...


Do you just whiff at stuff or are you intentionally disingenuous?

3/5 of you reply - the notes about LT, OC, and RT have nothing to do with the OP's question, right? It clearly asks about the need for OGs.

Not Old Gangstas, either.
RE: RE: Top 3 needs are obvious  
allstarjim : 3/3/2021 5:22 pm : link
In comment 15165572 Old Blue said:
Quote:
In comment 15165495 Breeze_94 said:


Quote:


EDGE, WR, CB2.

After that it could be
- OG if they move on from Zeitler
- DL if Tomlinson walks
- RT if they don't believe in Peart and Fleming is gone
- TE if they move on from Engram (as stated in another thread, I'd rather cut Engram if it means keeping Tomlinson)



Also think RB2 is a big hole with Saquon coming back from an ACL and Gallman/Freeman/Lewis/Morris all set to hit FA...not sure any of those 4 is back





Oline, Oline, and Oline are the top 3 needs for this team. If Humpty Dumpty Oline isn’t fixed nothing else matters.


This OL is much, much better than it was 3 years ago. You have young guys though and you have to give them a chance to improve. Peart really has all the tools to be a great OT.
RE: RE: I don't know how this can't be...  
bw in dc : 3/3/2021 5:32 pm : link
In comment 15165871 BelieveJJ said:
Quote:
In comment 15165699 bw in dc said:


Quote:


an overwhelming YES. Because who really feels great about the OL right now?

As usual, we have question marks all across the line.

-- LT: Thomas flashed in the second half of the season but he never really dominated a game like I'd expect a top draft choice to do. So who knows what we have yet here...
-- LG: Hernandez and Lemieux were more bad than good.
-- C: Best offensive player this year. A one time thing or is this the beginning of a budding career? Anybody's guess is as good as mine here...
-- RG: Zeitler looks like he's clearly on the back nine of his career.
-- RT: Solder/Peart/Flemming...at best, these are average players right now.

I mean, do you need anymore evidence?

So we enter another off-season with more uncertainly at one of the most important units in football...



Do you just whiff at stuff or are you intentionally disingenuous?

3/5 of you reply - the notes about LT, OC, and RT have nothing to do with the OP's question, right? It clearly asks about the need for OGs.

Not Old Gangstas, either.


I said yes on having G as a top priority (addressing the OP's question), and then expanded further on the overall OL.

Struggling to find anything "disingenuous"...
What  
Dragon : 3/4/2021 11:53 am : link
Position is not?
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