He was like a bull in a china cabinet when he was here but seems to have really refined his game. Still only 25. Wouldn't mind having him back.
Detroit got a lot out of him in three years - 20 sacks and that was with 1.5 in 2019. And he's been good on specials blocking FG attempts. All for about $7M over those three years.
and will be paid like a great player. And the Giants should want a great DL in his prime on their team. Unfortunately, it's gotten this far without a deal getting done.
It sounds like the Giants have told him they will tag him again if they can't work out a deal. And now he's trying to get tagged at the DE level ($21.4M) rather than DT. (He played most of his snaps as a DE last year.)
and will be paid like a great player. And the Giants should want a great DL in his prime on their team. Unfortunately, it's gotten this far without a deal getting done.
It sounds like the Giants have told him they will tag him again if they can't work out a deal. And now he's trying to get tagged at the DE level ($21.4M) rather than DT. (He played most of his snaps as a DE last year.)
I've seen the tender for DE listed at $17.7M, where did you get the 21.4M number?
and will be paid like a great player. And the Giants should want a great DL in his prime on their team. Unfortunately, it's gotten this far without a deal getting done.
It sounds like the Giants have told him they will tag him again if they can't work out a deal. And now he's trying to get tagged at the DE level ($21.4M) rather than DT. (He played most of his snaps as a DE last year.)
I've seen the tender for DE listed at $17.7M, where did you get the 21.4M number?
The salary cap hasn't been set yet, so any number you're seeing would be for a previous year.
But as far as I’m concerned , there is no alternative but to use it . He’s 26. Think of where Strahan was when he was 26. Williams has committed himself to good nutritional intake . Like the Bama defensive linemen on The Football Team, he started taking his body seriously . Therefore he’s as “safe” of a signing that you will ever see.
Gettleman’s fate hangs in the balance . If he screws this up, he should be removed immediately . Williams could hold out , I guess . But I doubt it .
He’s 26. Think of where Strahan was when he was 26.
A little apples to oranges. Strahan was a second round pick. If the Giants had a 2nd round pick not show much for 5 years, we'd all agree it was a failure.
Stock is very low compared to last year (lower than Okwara!). After how good last year's UFA went, I'll be excited to see how DG handles this. Who are the real gems. Lots of interesting names on that list.
Stock is very low compared to last year (lower than Okwara!). After how good last year's UFA went, I'll be excited to see how DG handles this. Who are the real gems. Lots of interesting names on that list.
What's even more interesting is he was traded to Baltimore for essentially the same package as we paid for Williams. 2020 production heavily favors Williams and you can make the argument that 2020 Williams was better than peak Yannick thus far.
though at the time I definitely remember their being a ton of smoke to Yannick not really doing anything elite. He's always been pretty good and I think he overplayed his hand and has been a cast-off ever since.
FT for Williams will cost the Giants $19.3M in cap space in 2021. The cap is likely to be only about $180M. The Giants can certainly increase their cap space by cutting Tate and Solder, and trading Engram, but I assume that using the FT on Williams would reduce that substantially.
Teams sometimes use the FT to be able to continue negotiations for a long-term contract. But the Giants have already been unable to get a long-term contract done with Williams for more than a year. Is more time really going to help, especially since we have already heard that the parties are far apart?
Williams wants to hit FA to see if there is a team that will pay him $20-$21M. I don’t blame him. The Giants will have to pay a premium to prevent that from happening. If there isn’t, he probably thinks he can take the Giants’ original offer, but if he can’t, that some other team will at least offer the same amount.
Like everyone else, I’d like to sign Williams to a long-term contract, but it may not be possible.
from Williams (and his Agent) point of view that this is a once in a career opportunity.
He might never have more value. Career high in sacks, 26 years old. Of course he wants to hit the open market.
It could be his only change to score an enormous contract.
And, he's already been tagged once, so the Giants are under the gun. Neither side wants a tag. If he has to play another year on the tag, his value likely goes down unless he has another crazy sack year, and the giants are forced to pay a tag contract that severely impacts their ability to roster-build.
If the giants tag him they must pay him at least 20% more than he was paid last year. I believe that cost will be prohibitive. The giants will have to obtain a multi year contract or resign Tomlinson and one or two other quality players possibly a linebacker and a corner to maintain the quality of the defense without him. Alternatively they can sign Tomlinson a guard and a wideout and use the first two picks in the draft for a corner and an edge.
Not sure how many more convos need to be had over LW.
He’s absolutely not going anywhere this year, imo. They’ll work out a satisfactory contract for both sides I believe, even if they have to tag him again while they work one out
of the trade I think what often gets lost is that his effort and consistency were not always there on the Jets but he expected to be paid like an upper echelon player. Many noted these risks at the time, it clearly was an issue in us signing him.
This is the heart of the issue with him. The only knocks on him in college were that he wasn't always "high motor" or consistently at his best. To me this was the core issue of the trade and why to me it makes sense to wait for a player like this to hit FA to know exactly what he costs.
Especially for a team with no guarantee to be competitive like us that's a huge concern.
LW played like an elite player this year, no doubt. But personally if I am going to pay someone like an elite player you really want them to have more consistency than him.
He presents a massive risk. Ultimately in judging the trade, we really need to see if he plays up to whatever contract he gets, because that being a problem is absolutely something that could have been foreseen. It absolutely could have been foreseen that it would be difficult to agree on his value based on his time with the Jets.
The question with LW was never if he could play at an elite level, it was always how often and at what long term value?
The move was always fraught with risk, risks that teams in losing seasons almost never take. If we sign him to big dollars and he performs, I'd love to eat crow that this kind of risk is something that others teams don't take and we had the right inkling to capitalize on it.
You can play it safe and go with the conventional wisdom and be safe in assuming that you can probably be middle of the pack doing that. To be the best you have to do things differently and be right. If you find yourself consistently at the bottom it probably means you are doing things differently and are too often wrong...
He’s 26. Think of where Strahan was when he was 26.
A little apples to oranges. Strahan was a second round pick. If the Giants had a 2nd round pick not show much for 5 years, we'd all agree it was a failure.
I'm confused. Are you saying Williams hasn't shown much in 5 years? He was on the All rookie team, a pro bowler (FWIW) in his 2nd yr ('16) and by most stats, had a better season than some of the DL who were pro bowlers in '20.
of the trade I think what often gets lost is that his effort and consistency were not always there on the Jets but he expected to be paid like an upper echelon player. Many noted these risks at the time, it clearly was an issue in us signing him.
This is the heart of the issue with him. The only knocks on him in college were that he wasn't always "high motor" or consistently at his best. To me this was the core issue of the trade and why to me it makes sense to wait for a player like this to hit FA to know exactly what he costs.
Especially for a team with no guarantee to be competitive like us that's a huge concern.
LW played like an elite player this year, no doubt. But personally if I am going to pay someone like an elite player you really want them to have more consistency than him.
He presents a massive risk.
Very well stated NoGain. I agree. There is a fairly high degree of risk in resigning Williams. We don't know what he will be in the future but he certainly wouldn't be the first "under-acheiver" to play out of his mind in his contract year only to never reach that same level again after signing a big contract.
if it wasn't for this spike in production coinciding with what appears to be a major coaching improvement especially in the form of youth and creativity that it's clear Judge and Graham bring.
I hesitate to ever give too much credit to just "motivational speaking" if it doesn't come with a proclivity to put your players in a position to succeed. There is certainly something to be said about what happened with LW both in the college and the pros where some coaches just seemed to want him to crash into double teams play after play. (Scouting identified this as one of his "problems" not always being able to do well with double teams) And perhaps some players are wired to do that but I could see that getting old for anyone.
If we can start winning I think that really lowers all of this risk though. LW definitely seems like a guy that could turn it up a notch in the playoffs so I'd love to see him get a chance to earn his money there.
He’s 26. Think of where Strahan was when he was 26.
A little apples to oranges. Strahan was a second round pick. If the Giants had a 2nd round pick not show much for 5 years, we'd all agree it was a failure.
If Strahan was a 1st round pick, posters here (hi bw!) would be talking about how we can't trust his 'contract year' performance and would be better off letting him walk!
that Williams was underperforming is very overblown. He had a very solid rookie season and he's been consistently good against the run - near the top of his peers.
A lot of the comments on his value boil down to many fans looking at stats like he is a DE. Just look at the derisive comments on BBI in 2019 when so many wanted to just judge him on sacks. It became a punchline.
Then when his sack numbers actually skyrocket, they find other things to poke at.
of the trade I think what often gets lost is that his effort and consistency were not always there on the Jets but he expected to be paid like an upper echelon player. Many noted these risks at the time, it clearly was an issue in us signing him.
This is the heart of the issue with him. The only knocks on him in college were that he wasn't always "high motor" or consistently at his best. To me this was the core issue of the trade and why to me it makes sense to wait for a player like this to hit FA to know exactly what he costs.
Especially for a team with no guarantee to be competitive like us that's a huge concern.
LW played like an elite player this year, no doubt. But personally if I am going to pay someone like an elite player you really want them to have more consistency than him.
He presents a massive risk. Ultimately in judging the trade, we really need to see if he plays up to whatever contract he gets, because that being a problem is absolutely something that could have been foreseen. It absolutely could have been foreseen that it would be difficult to agree on his value based on his time with the Jets.
The question with LW was never if he could play at an elite level, it was always how often and at what long term value?
The move was always fraught with risk, risks that teams in losing seasons almost never take. If we sign him to big dollars and he performs, I'd love to eat crow that this kind of risk is something that others teams don't take and we had the right inkling to capitalize on it.
You can play it safe and go with the conventional wisdom and be safe in assuming that you can probably be middle of the pack doing that. To be the best you have to do things differently and be right. If you find yourself consistently at the bottom it probably means you are doing things differently and are too often wrong...
LW at the time of the trade - ( New Window )
I completely disagree with your take about his effort not always being there. He is the definition of consistent. People wanted the production in the form of sacks but his run D and pressures were always consistent. The consistency line in the article is about how he took on double teams and nowhere has anyone ever questioned his effort.
other than to stir the pot. A deal not being done doesn't mean the Giants are questioning his value - in fact it means they have likely set a ceiling which is not what Williams will be happy with, hence not signing. Its a pretty basic negotiation concept. They haven't been negotiating for 17 months either. One Williams decided to take the tag instead of a lower valued long term contract, it was all getting pushed to this offseason.
We don't have all the details, we don't know how big the gap is, and we don't know how/which cuts will be made to help move this deal along. Add in the lower cap + questions on what its actually going to be and here we are, just like every other team.
What's your take on Dak Prescott? Justin Simmons? Anthony Harris? Thuney? Henry? Judon? Are their respective front offices completely confused on their value or are they kinda in the same boat as everyone else?
that Williams was underperforming is very overblown. He had a very solid rookie season and he's been consistently good against the run - near the top of his peers.
A lot of the comments on his value boil down to many fans looking at stats like he is a DE. Just look at the derisive comments on BBI in 2019 when so many wanted to just judge him on sacks. It became a punchline.
Then when his sack numbers actually skyrocket, they find other things to poke at.
So no problem on your end coughing up a multi-year/$20-22M AAV for LW?
that Williams was underperforming is very overblown. He had a very solid rookie season and he's been consistently good against the run - near the top of his peers.
A lot of the comments on his value boil down to many fans looking at stats like he is a DE. Just look at the derisive comments on BBI in 2019 when so many wanted to just judge him on sacks. It became a punchline.
Then when his sack numbers actually skyrocket, they find other things to poke at.
So no problem on your end coughing up a multi-year/$20-22M AAV for LW?
$22M per year and 50% or more of that coming in guarantees is simply crazy for a team that still has to rebuild a roster and become better than 6-10...
RE: The Giants clearly have questions to his value
questioning value and production. I love Williams production. I think he is our best DL. However, I do not want to pay him like one of the top 3 or 4 (or better) DL in the league. I don't believe he is that and there is nothing to indicate he will be. He was a good DL before he came here and stepped up to a very good one. But, last year, by a wide margin, was his best season. I think it is fair to question whether he can maintain that level of play for 3-4 years, since he is looking to be paid like it.
RE: For the umpteenth time There is a difference between
questioning value and production. I love Williams production. I think he is our best DL. However, I do not want to pay him like one of the top 3 or 4 (or better) DL in the league. I don't believe he is that and there is nothing to indicate he will be. He was a good DL before he came here and stepped up to a very good one. But, last year, by a wide margin, was his best season. I think it is fair to question whether he can maintain that level of play for 3-4 years, since he is looking to be paid like it.
Umpteenth time? Matt, be careful repeating things as some here clearly frown upon that...
$22M per year and 50% or more of that coming in guarantees is simply crazy for a team that still has to rebuild a roster and become better than 6-10...
I'm at the point where I think applying the FT is too much. If there was a way to go sign-and-trade, that would be the absolute best outcome right now.
I remember arguing we should have traded LW at last season's trade deadline to get something back. For many of the concerns discussed.
We can replace LW with a combination of other players and scheme. It's just more vital right now to produce more points on offense. And almost 10ppg more compared to last year...
We need to get a contract done. Forget what anyone thinks he’s worth.
Does it really matter if he’s paid 20-21 instead of 18-19? We’re talking about 2 million or so more PER YEAR with an amortized cap hit. Is 2+ million more per year going to stop us from continuing to improve and fill in the holes? As I see it, absolutely not..
RE: We need to get a contract done. Forget what anyone thinks he’s worth.
Does it really matter if he’s paid 20-21 instead of 18-19? We’re talking about 2 million or so more PER YEAR with an amortized cap hit. Is 2+ million more per year going to stop us from continuing to improve and fill in the holes? As I see it, absolutely not..
Guarantees will be guarantees regardless of the settled on per annum contract. It’s going to be high..
Williams has been a consistent performer virtually every year.
His weakest year was arguably 2019, and I don't knock him for that. New system and new team mid year is tough.
He's always been a guy that packs the stat sheet at a pretty good clip when you add up the sacks, TFLs, FFs, tipped passes, pressures, and hits.
I think way too much is made of sacks both ways. The practical difference between 5 sacks on 10 pressures, and 10 sacks on 10 pressures is maybe 35 yards net, and a few ancillary positives.
Williams was very good this year. I'd say one notch better than I thought he was.
The problem for me has always been can the Giants sign him long term.
Williams has been a consistent performer virtually every year.
His weakest year was arguably 2019, and I don't knock him for that. New system and new team mid year is tough.
He's always been a guy that packs the stat sheet at a pretty good clip when you add up the sacks, TFLs, FFs, tipped passes, pressures, and hits.
I think way too much is made of sacks both ways. The practical difference between 5 sacks on 10 pressures, and 10 sacks on 10 pressures is maybe 35 yards net, and a few ancillary positives.
Williams was very good this year. I'd say one notch better than I thought he was.
The problem for me has always been can the Giants sign him long term.
I’m telling you that they WILL sign him long term, so there’s no problem. Let’s move on..😎
RE: We need to get a contract done. Forget what anyone thinks he’s worth.
Does it really matter if he’s paid 20-21 instead of 18-19? We’re talking about 2 million or so more PER YEAR with an amortized cap hit. Is 2+ million more per year going to stop us from continuing to improve and fill in the holes? As I see it, absolutely not..
Well, I don't even want to pay $18M, so there is a big difference between that and $21, plus how much gets guaranteed is the key.
I think I'd be more comfortable with a 4 year deal. As compensation, I would guarantee a larger percentage of the deal than being discussed for a 5 year deal.
RE: RE: We need to get a contract done. Forget what anyone thinks he’s worth.
Does it really matter if he’s paid 20-21 instead of 18-19? We’re talking about 2 million or so more PER YEAR with an amortized cap hit. Is 2+ million more per year going to stop us from continuing to improve and fill in the holes? As I see it, absolutely not..
Well, I don't even want to pay $18M, so there is a big difference between that and $21, plus how much gets guaranteed is the key.
I think I'd be more comfortable with a 4 year deal. As compensation, I would guarantee a larger percentage of the deal than being discussed for a 5 year deal.
Matt, whatever the final figures are and how they arrive at that figure I’m certain will be to their mutual satisfaction even if the numbers aren’t what we’d ideally like to see
And finally, if we can’t pay a healthy 26 year-old solid
$22M per year and 50% or more of that coming in guarantees is simply crazy for a team that still has to rebuild a roster and become better than 6-10...
I'm at the point where I think applying the FT is too much. If there was a way to go sign-and-trade, that would be the absolute best outcome right now.
I remember arguing we should have traded LW at last season's trade deadline to get something back. For many of the concerns discussed.
We can replace LW with a combination of other players and scheme. It's just more vital right now to produce more points on offense. And almost 10ppg more compared to last year...
Applying the tag again serves no purpose. The team isn’t in some short term Super Bowl window. Okay with tag and trade but only if deal is locked and loaded.
If he won’t take NYG best offer then off to Free Agency he should go. Bid for him there if still makes economic sense.
that Williams was underperforming is very overblown. He had a very solid rookie season and he's been consistently good against the run - near the top of his peers.
A lot of the comments on his value boil down to many fans looking at stats like he is a DE. Just look at the derisive comments on BBI in 2019 when so many wanted to just judge him on sacks. It became a punchline.
Then when his sack numbers actually skyrocket, they find other things to poke at.
So no problem on your end coughing up a multi-year/$20-22M AAV for LW?
I wouldn't have a problem for two reasons:
1) Structuring the guarantees and the length of the contract will be important. I think that can be done to benefit both parties
2) We do not have a lot of long-term contracts or tight cap situations in the next few years. If the cap continues to rise, locking Williams in at $20M might be very preferential to having to try and get a more expensive replacement down the road.
that Williams was underperforming is very overblown. He had a very solid rookie season and he's been consistently good against the run - near the top of his peers.
A lot of the comments on his value boil down to many fans looking at stats like he is a DE. Just look at the derisive comments on BBI in 2019 when so many wanted to just judge him on sacks. It became a punchline.
Then when his sack numbers actually skyrocket, they find other things to poke at.
So no problem on your end coughing up a multi-year/$20-22M AAV for LW?
I wouldn't have a problem for two reasons:
1) Structuring the guarantees and the length of the contract will be important. I think that can be done to benefit both parties
2) We do not have a lot of long-term contracts or tight cap situations in the next few years. If the cap continues to rise, locking Williams in at $20M might be very preferential to having to try and get a more expensive replacement down the road.
#2 clearly makes sense but assume they factored that in already in the offer he is not taking now...
and will be paid like a great player. And the Giants should want a great DL in his prime on their team. Unfortunately, it's gotten this far without a deal getting done.
It sounds like the Giants have told him they will tag him again if they can't work out a deal. And now he's trying to get tagged at the DE level ($21.4M) rather than DT. (He played most of his snaps as a DE last year.)
A 3-4 DE is a DT. They went through this last year. He is not the traditional DE for a 4-3 defense.
I completely disagree with your take about his effort not always being there. He is the definition of consistent. People wanted the production in the form of sacks but his run D and pressures were always consistent. The consistency line in the article is about how he took on double teams and nowhere has anyone ever questioned his effort.
First of all I don't think the article I shared above says it's just a double team thing. I think that's part of it but there are two different statements
Quote:
He’s a very gifted and talented athlete who can be dominant but inconsistent,” the scout said. “He hasn’t played up to his talent level enough. You’re always concerned about a defensive linemen who struggles with consistently being able to fight off double-teams. The Giants need to find a way to get him to play up to his talent level.
Quote:
“It’s certainly curious how a player goes from being absolutely dominant to ‘just a guy,’”
The article quoted two different scouts, who both had this concern. I'm also linking a college scouting report from Walter Football, which again, as I said, effort questions are the only questions he had.
I'm not big on stats. This past year he seemed to come up bigger in bigger situations, he seemed to change the game more. Few were calling him elite last year. Hell, if the Giants thought he was elite last year he probably would have been signed. I'm not huge stats for linemen generally. But 30 QB hits this past year, 16 the year before. 14 TFL this past year 2 the year before. I don't think that large of a difference can be accounted for by luck.
Sure he's always been a great run stopper but I saw much more consistent penetration this year.
$22M per year and 50% or more of that coming in guarantees is simply crazy for a team that still has to rebuild a roster and become better than 6-10...
I'm at the point where I think applying the FT is too much. If there was a way to go sign-and-trade, that would be the absolute best outcome right now.
I remember arguing we should have traded LW at last season's trade deadline to get something back. For many of the concerns discussed.
We can replace LW with a combination of other players and scheme. It's just more vital right now to produce more points on offense. And almost 10ppg more compared to last year...
Applying the tag again serves no purpose. The team isn’t in some short term Super Bowl window. Okay with tag and trade but only if deal is locked and loaded.
If he won’t take NYG best offer then off to Free Agency he should go. Bid for him there if still makes economic sense.
I say let LW test the market; and if he gets an offer, ask him if we can have last look to match.
Unless LW wants to play both ways - DT/DE and LG - he just isn't worth the price with so many leaks on this team.
"Prescott has a lot of leverage. It doesn't hurt that the Cowboys imploded without him last season."
"He is the best of this class, one of the true stars in it."
"NFL careers can fall off a cliff quickly."
Not sure I understand all the "leverage" talk Dak has. And if there is a QB left at 10 I'd bet the Cowboys take him. Then the cards fall differently for the "#1" FA available.
The cowboys imploded for more reasons than Dak being out.
I commend the Cowboys if they franchise him, but I wouldn't say he has any leverage at all for a mega deal, and if he wants top dollar, go ahead and let him hit FA.
What other team would sign Dak to, say $40M, coming off his injury?
LW on the other hand is coming off a great season and will get paid by some team whether it's us or not. This writer is spot on with with LW's situation and we need to pay him $17-$20M.
Detroit got a lot out of him in three years - 20 sacks and that was with 1.5 in 2019. And he's been good on specials blocking FG attempts. All for about $7M over those three years.
It sounds like the Giants have told him they will tag him again if they can't work out a deal. And now he's trying to get tagged at the DE level ($21.4M) rather than DT. (He played most of his snaps as a DE last year.)
It sounds like the Giants have told him they will tag him again if they can't work out a deal. And now he's trying to get tagged at the DE level ($21.4M) rather than DT. (He played most of his snaps as a DE last year.)
I've seen the tender for DE listed at $17.7M, where did you get the 21.4M number?
Quote:
and will be paid like a great player. And the Giants should want a great DL in his prime on their team. Unfortunately, it's gotten this far without a deal getting done.
It sounds like the Giants have told him they will tag him again if they can't work out a deal. And now he's trying to get tagged at the DE level ($21.4M) rather than DT. (He played most of his snaps as a DE last year.)
I've seen the tender for DE listed at $17.7M, where did you get the 21.4M number?
The salary cap hasn't been set yet, so any number you're seeing would be for a previous year.
Gettleman’s fate hangs in the balance . If he screws this up, he should be removed immediately . Williams could hold out , I guess . But I doubt it .
A little apples to oranges. Strahan was a second round pick. If the Giants had a 2nd round pick not show much for 5 years, we'd all agree it was a failure.
Stock is very low compared to last year (lower than Okwara!). After how good last year's UFA went, I'll be excited to see how DG handles this. Who are the real gems. Lots of interesting names on that list.
Quote:
seems tiny compared to what it was a year ago.
Stock is very low compared to last year (lower than Okwara!). After how good last year's UFA went, I'll be excited to see how DG handles this. Who are the real gems. Lots of interesting names on that list.
What's even more interesting is he was traded to Baltimore for essentially the same package as we paid for Williams. 2020 production heavily favors Williams and you can make the argument that 2020 Williams was better than peak Yannick thus far.
Teams sometimes use the FT to be able to continue negotiations for a long-term contract. But the Giants have already been unable to get a long-term contract done with Williams for more than a year. Is more time really going to help, especially since we have already heard that the parties are far apart?
Williams wants to hit FA to see if there is a team that will pay him $20-$21M. I don’t blame him. The Giants will have to pay a premium to prevent that from happening. If there isn’t, he probably thinks he can take the Giants’ original offer, but if he can’t, that some other team will at least offer the same amount.
Like everyone else, I’d like to sign Williams to a long-term contract, but it may not be possible.
He might never have more value. Career high in sacks, 26 years old. Of course he wants to hit the open market.
It could be his only change to score an enormous contract.
And, he's already been tagged once, so the Giants are under the gun. Neither side wants a tag. If he has to play another year on the tag, his value likely goes down unless he has another crazy sack year, and the giants are forced to pay a tag contract that severely impacts their ability to roster-build.
This is the heart of the issue with him. The only knocks on him in college were that he wasn't always "high motor" or consistently at his best. To me this was the core issue of the trade and why to me it makes sense to wait for a player like this to hit FA to know exactly what he costs.
Especially for a team with no guarantee to be competitive like us that's a huge concern.
LW played like an elite player this year, no doubt. But personally if I am going to pay someone like an elite player you really want them to have more consistency than him.
He presents a massive risk. Ultimately in judging the trade, we really need to see if he plays up to whatever contract he gets, because that being a problem is absolutely something that could have been foreseen. It absolutely could have been foreseen that it would be difficult to agree on his value based on his time with the Jets.
The question with LW was never if he could play at an elite level, it was always how often and at what long term value?
The move was always fraught with risk, risks that teams in losing seasons almost never take. If we sign him to big dollars and he performs, I'd love to eat crow that this kind of risk is something that others teams don't take and we had the right inkling to capitalize on it.
You can play it safe and go with the conventional wisdom and be safe in assuming that you can probably be middle of the pack doing that. To be the best you have to do things differently and be right. If you find yourself consistently at the bottom it probably means you are doing things differently and are too often wrong...
LW at the time of the trade - ( New Window )
Quote:
He’s 26. Think of where Strahan was when he was 26.
A little apples to oranges. Strahan was a second round pick. If the Giants had a 2nd round pick not show much for 5 years, we'd all agree it was a failure.
I'm confused. Are you saying Williams hasn't shown much in 5 years? He was on the All rookie team, a pro bowler (FWIW) in his 2nd yr ('16) and by most stats, had a better season than some of the DL who were pro bowlers in '20.
I suspect the inferior coaching staff doesn't motivate him, nor put him in as many positions to succeed - likely what happened with the Jets as well.
This is the heart of the issue with him. The only knocks on him in college were that he wasn't always "high motor" or consistently at his best. To me this was the core issue of the trade and why to me it makes sense to wait for a player like this to hit FA to know exactly what he costs.
Especially for a team with no guarantee to be competitive like us that's a huge concern.
LW played like an elite player this year, no doubt. But personally if I am going to pay someone like an elite player you really want them to have more consistency than him.
He presents a massive risk.
Very well stated NoGain. I agree. There is a fairly high degree of risk in resigning Williams. We don't know what he will be in the future but he certainly wouldn't be the first "under-acheiver" to play out of his mind in his contract year only to never reach that same level again after signing a big contract.
I hesitate to ever give too much credit to just "motivational speaking" if it doesn't come with a proclivity to put your players in a position to succeed. There is certainly something to be said about what happened with LW both in the college and the pros where some coaches just seemed to want him to crash into double teams play after play. (Scouting identified this as one of his "problems" not always being able to do well with double teams) And perhaps some players are wired to do that but I could see that getting old for anyone.
If we can start winning I think that really lowers all of this risk though. LW definitely seems like a guy that could turn it up a notch in the playoffs so I'd love to see him get a chance to earn his money there.
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He’s 26. Think of where Strahan was when he was 26.
A little apples to oranges. Strahan was a second round pick. If the Giants had a 2nd round pick not show much for 5 years, we'd all agree it was a failure.
If Strahan was a 1st round pick, posters here (hi bw!) would be talking about how we can't trust his 'contract year' performance and would be better off letting him walk!
A lot of the comments on his value boil down to many fans looking at stats like he is a DE. Just look at the derisive comments on BBI in 2019 when so many wanted to just judge him on sacks. It became a punchline.
Then when his sack numbers actually skyrocket, they find other things to poke at.
This is the heart of the issue with him. The only knocks on him in college were that he wasn't always "high motor" or consistently at his best. To me this was the core issue of the trade and why to me it makes sense to wait for a player like this to hit FA to know exactly what he costs.
Especially for a team with no guarantee to be competitive like us that's a huge concern.
LW played like an elite player this year, no doubt. But personally if I am going to pay someone like an elite player you really want them to have more consistency than him.
He presents a massive risk. Ultimately in judging the trade, we really need to see if he plays up to whatever contract he gets, because that being a problem is absolutely something that could have been foreseen. It absolutely could have been foreseen that it would be difficult to agree on his value based on his time with the Jets.
The question with LW was never if he could play at an elite level, it was always how often and at what long term value?
The move was always fraught with risk, risks that teams in losing seasons almost never take. If we sign him to big dollars and he performs, I'd love to eat crow that this kind of risk is something that others teams don't take and we had the right inkling to capitalize on it.
You can play it safe and go with the conventional wisdom and be safe in assuming that you can probably be middle of the pack doing that. To be the best you have to do things differently and be right. If you find yourself consistently at the bottom it probably means you are doing things differently and are too often wrong...
LW at the time of the trade - ( New Window )
I completely disagree with your take about his effort not always being there. He is the definition of consistent. People wanted the production in the form of sacks but his run D and pressures were always consistent. The consistency line in the article is about how he took on double teams and nowhere has anyone ever questioned his effort.
The last time we had a great defensive line - we won 2 Superbowls.
It's only been what...17 months to sort that out?
Hell, he is still arguing with team about whether he should have been tagged as a DE versus a DT...
We don't have all the details, we don't know how big the gap is, and we don't know how/which cuts will be made to help move this deal along. Add in the lower cap + questions on what its actually going to be and here we are, just like every other team.
What's your take on Dak Prescott? Justin Simmons? Anthony Harris? Thuney? Henry? Judon? Are their respective front offices completely confused on their value or are they kinda in the same boat as everyone else?
A lot of the comments on his value boil down to many fans looking at stats like he is a DE. Just look at the derisive comments on BBI in 2019 when so many wanted to just judge him on sacks. It became a punchline.
Then when his sack numbers actually skyrocket, they find other things to poke at.
So no problem on your end coughing up a multi-year/$20-22M AAV for LW?
And if it bothers you then move on...
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that Williams was underperforming is very overblown. He had a very solid rookie season and he's been consistently good against the run - near the top of his peers.
A lot of the comments on his value boil down to many fans looking at stats like he is a DE. Just look at the derisive comments on BBI in 2019 when so many wanted to just judge him on sacks. It became a punchline.
Then when his sack numbers actually skyrocket, they find other things to poke at.
So no problem on your end coughing up a multi-year/$20-22M AAV for LW?
$22M per year and 50% or more of that coming in guarantees is simply crazy for a team that still has to rebuild a roster and become better than 6-10...
And if it bothers you then move on...
It doesn’t bother me, I’ve just seen you post it in just about every thread, it’s strange.
You didn’t answer my questions. What about every other player playing on a tag that’s unsigned?
And if it bothers you then move on...
This is actually a very good stand-off.
The Giants should be unwilling to meet LW's demands and LW should be asking for a huge contract.
Unfortunately, I think Gettleman is going to blink first here and meet LW's ask.
As to your question about those other players you named...I don't know as haven't followed their situations at all.
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and have since this began back in late 2019, and continues to this day. That shouldn't be confrontational.
And if it bothers you then move on...
This is actually a very good stand-off.
The Giants should be unwilling to meet LW's demands and LW should be asking for a huge contract.
Unfortunately, I think Gettleman is going to blink first here and meet LW's ask.
Tend to agree. But then I guess DG's ceiling will likely have been re-set...
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and have since this began back in late 2019, and continues to this day. That shouldn't be confrontational.
And if it bothers you then move on...
This is actually a very good stand-off.
The Giants should be unwilling to meet LW's demands and LW should be asking for a huge contract.
Unfortunately, I think Gettleman is going to blink first here and meet LW's ask.
Good, hope he does
Umpteenth time? Matt, be careful repeating things as some here clearly frown upon that...
$22M per year and 50% or more of that coming in guarantees is simply crazy for a team that still has to rebuild a roster and become better than 6-10...
I'm at the point where I think applying the FT is too much. If there was a way to go sign-and-trade, that would be the absolute best outcome right now.
I remember arguing we should have traded LW at last season's trade deadline to get something back. For many of the concerns discussed.
We can replace LW with a combination of other players and scheme. It's just more vital right now to produce more points on offense. And almost 10ppg more compared to last year...
Guarantees will be guarantees regardless of the settled on per annum contract. It’s going to be high..
His weakest year was arguably 2019, and I don't knock him for that. New system and new team mid year is tough.
He's always been a guy that packs the stat sheet at a pretty good clip when you add up the sacks, TFLs, FFs, tipped passes, pressures, and hits.
I think way too much is made of sacks both ways. The practical difference between 5 sacks on 10 pressures, and 10 sacks on 10 pressures is maybe 35 yards net, and a few ancillary positives.
Williams was very good this year. I'd say one notch better than I thought he was.
The problem for me has always been can the Giants sign him long term.
His weakest year was arguably 2019, and I don't knock him for that. New system and new team mid year is tough.
He's always been a guy that packs the stat sheet at a pretty good clip when you add up the sacks, TFLs, FFs, tipped passes, pressures, and hits.
I think way too much is made of sacks both ways. The practical difference between 5 sacks on 10 pressures, and 10 sacks on 10 pressures is maybe 35 yards net, and a few ancillary positives.
Williams was very good this year. I'd say one notch better than I thought he was.
The problem for me has always been can the Giants sign him long term.
I’m telling you that they WILL sign him long term, so there’s no problem. Let’s move on..😎
I think I'd be more comfortable with a 4 year deal. As compensation, I would guarantee a larger percentage of the deal than being discussed for a 5 year deal.
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Does it really matter if he’s paid 20-21 instead of 18-19? We’re talking about 2 million or so more PER YEAR with an amortized cap hit. Is 2+ million more per year going to stop us from continuing to improve and fill in the holes? As I see it, absolutely not..
Well, I don't even want to pay $18M, so there is a big difference between that and $21, plus how much gets guaranteed is the key.
I think I'd be more comfortable with a 4 year deal. As compensation, I would guarantee a larger percentage of the deal than being discussed for a 5 year deal.
Matt, whatever the final figures are and how they arrive at that figure I’m certain will be to their mutual satisfaction even if the numbers aren’t what we’d ideally like to see
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player big bucks, then who can we ever pay big bucks to outside of a QB?
$20-21M isn't solid player big bucks. Tomlinson will get solid player bucks. $21M is elite DL bucks.
Well, he is the highest rated non QB FA, fwiw..Unfortunately, Elite money has gone to non-elite players for years. That’s today’s NFL
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$22M per year and 50% or more of that coming in guarantees is simply crazy for a team that still has to rebuild a roster and become better than 6-10...
I'm at the point where I think applying the FT is too much. If there was a way to go sign-and-trade, that would be the absolute best outcome right now.
I remember arguing we should have traded LW at last season's trade deadline to get something back. For many of the concerns discussed.
We can replace LW with a combination of other players and scheme. It's just more vital right now to produce more points on offense. And almost 10ppg more compared to last year...
Applying the tag again serves no purpose. The team isn’t in some short term Super Bowl window. Okay with tag and trade but only if deal is locked and loaded.
If he won’t take NYG best offer then off to Free Agency he should go. Bid for him there if still makes economic sense.
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that Williams was underperforming is very overblown. He had a very solid rookie season and he's been consistently good against the run - near the top of his peers.
A lot of the comments on his value boil down to many fans looking at stats like he is a DE. Just look at the derisive comments on BBI in 2019 when so many wanted to just judge him on sacks. It became a punchline.
Then when his sack numbers actually skyrocket, they find other things to poke at.
So no problem on your end coughing up a multi-year/$20-22M AAV for LW?
I wouldn't have a problem for two reasons:
1) Structuring the guarantees and the length of the contract will be important. I think that can be done to benefit both parties
2) We do not have a lot of long-term contracts or tight cap situations in the next few years. If the cap continues to rise, locking Williams in at $20M might be very preferential to having to try and get a more expensive replacement down the road.
Similar to these...
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In comment 15165979 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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that Williams was underperforming is very overblown. He had a very solid rookie season and he's been consistently good against the run - near the top of his peers.
A lot of the comments on his value boil down to many fans looking at stats like he is a DE. Just look at the derisive comments on BBI in 2019 when so many wanted to just judge him on sacks. It became a punchline.
Then when his sack numbers actually skyrocket, they find other things to poke at.
So no problem on your end coughing up a multi-year/$20-22M AAV for LW?
I wouldn't have a problem for two reasons:
1) Structuring the guarantees and the length of the contract will be important. I think that can be done to benefit both parties
2) We do not have a lot of long-term contracts or tight cap situations in the next few years. If the cap continues to rise, locking Williams in at $20M might be very preferential to having to try and get a more expensive replacement down the road.
#2 clearly makes sense but assume they factored that in already in the offer he is not taking now...
It sounds like the Giants have told him they will tag him again if they can't work out a deal. And now he's trying to get tagged at the DE level ($21.4M) rather than DT. (He played most of his snaps as a DE last year.)
A 3-4 DE is a DT. They went through this last year. He is not the traditional DE for a 4-3 defense.
I completely disagree with your take about his effort not always being there. He is the definition of consistent. People wanted the production in the form of sacks but his run D and pressures were always consistent. The consistency line in the article is about how he took on double teams and nowhere has anyone ever questioned his effort.
First of all I don't think the article I shared above says it's just a double team thing. I think that's part of it but there are two different statements
The article quoted two different scouts, who both had this concern. I'm also linking a college scouting report from Walter Football, which again, as I said, effort questions are the only questions he had.
I'm not big on stats. This past year he seemed to come up bigger in bigger situations, he seemed to change the game more. Few were calling him elite last year. Hell, if the Giants thought he was elite last year he probably would have been signed. I'm not huge stats for linemen generally. But 30 QB hits this past year, 16 the year before. 14 TFL this past year 2 the year before. I don't think that large of a difference can be accounted for by luck.
Sure he's always been a great run stopper but I saw much more consistent penetration this year.
Walter Football Draft Scouting Report - ( New Window )
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In comment 15166079 Jimmy Googs said:
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$22M per year and 50% or more of that coming in guarantees is simply crazy for a team that still has to rebuild a roster and become better than 6-10...
I'm at the point where I think applying the FT is too much. If there was a way to go sign-and-trade, that would be the absolute best outcome right now.
I remember arguing we should have traded LW at last season's trade deadline to get something back. For many of the concerns discussed.
We can replace LW with a combination of other players and scheme. It's just more vital right now to produce more points on offense. And almost 10ppg more compared to last year...
Applying the tag again serves no purpose. The team isn’t in some short term Super Bowl window. Okay with tag and trade but only if deal is locked and loaded.
If he won’t take NYG best offer then off to Free Agency he should go. Bid for him there if still makes economic sense.
I say let LW test the market; and if he gets an offer, ask him if we can have last look to match.
Unless LW wants to play both ways - DT/DE and LG - he just isn't worth the price with so many leaks on this team.
Because so far it has been.
"He is the best of this class, one of the true stars in it."
"NFL careers can fall off a cliff quickly."
Not sure I understand all the "leverage" talk Dak has. And if there is a QB left at 10 I'd bet the Cowboys take him. Then the cards fall differently for the "#1" FA available.
The cowboys imploded for more reasons than Dak being out.
I commend the Cowboys if they franchise him, but I wouldn't say he has any leverage at all for a mega deal, and if he wants top dollar, go ahead and let him hit FA.
What other team would sign Dak to, say $40M, coming off his injury?
LW on the other hand is coming off a great season and will get paid by some team whether it's us or not. This writer is spot on with with LW's situation and we need to pay him $17-$20M.