Does it really matter if he’s paid 20-21 instead of 18-19? We’re talking about 2 million or so more PER YEAR with an amortized cap hit. Is 2+ million more per year going to stop us from continuing to improve and fill in the holes? As I see it, absolutely not..
Well, I don't even want to pay $18M, so there is a big difference between that and $21, plus how much gets guaranteed is the key.
I think I'd be more comfortable with a 4 year deal. As compensation, I would guarantee a larger percentage of the deal than being discussed for a 5 year deal.
Matt, whatever the final figures are and how they arrive at that figure I’m certain will be to their mutual satisfaction even if the numbers aren’t what we’d ideally like to see
And finally, if we can’t pay a healthy 26 year-old solid
$22M per year and 50% or more of that coming in guarantees is simply crazy for a team that still has to rebuild a roster and become better than 6-10...
I'm at the point where I think applying the FT is too much. If there was a way to go sign-and-trade, that would be the absolute best outcome right now.
I remember arguing we should have traded LW at last season's trade deadline to get something back. For many of the concerns discussed.
We can replace LW with a combination of other players and scheme. It's just more vital right now to produce more points on offense. And almost 10ppg more compared to last year...
Applying the tag again serves no purpose. The team isn’t in some short term Super Bowl window. Okay with tag and trade but only if deal is locked and loaded.
If he won’t take NYG best offer then off to Free Agency he should go. Bid for him there if still makes economic sense.
that Williams was underperforming is very overblown. He had a very solid rookie season and he's been consistently good against the run - near the top of his peers.
A lot of the comments on his value boil down to many fans looking at stats like he is a DE. Just look at the derisive comments on BBI in 2019 when so many wanted to just judge him on sacks. It became a punchline.
Then when his sack numbers actually skyrocket, they find other things to poke at.
So no problem on your end coughing up a multi-year/$20-22M AAV for LW?
I wouldn't have a problem for two reasons:
1) Structuring the guarantees and the length of the contract will be important. I think that can be done to benefit both parties
2) We do not have a lot of long-term contracts or tight cap situations in the next few years. If the cap continues to rise, locking Williams in at $20M might be very preferential to having to try and get a more expensive replacement down the road.
that Williams was underperforming is very overblown. He had a very solid rookie season and he's been consistently good against the run - near the top of his peers.
A lot of the comments on his value boil down to many fans looking at stats like he is a DE. Just look at the derisive comments on BBI in 2019 when so many wanted to just judge him on sacks. It became a punchline.
Then when his sack numbers actually skyrocket, they find other things to poke at.
So no problem on your end coughing up a multi-year/$20-22M AAV for LW?
I wouldn't have a problem for two reasons:
1) Structuring the guarantees and the length of the contract will be important. I think that can be done to benefit both parties
2) We do not have a lot of long-term contracts or tight cap situations in the next few years. If the cap continues to rise, locking Williams in at $20M might be very preferential to having to try and get a more expensive replacement down the road.
#2 clearly makes sense but assume they factored that in already in the offer he is not taking now...
and will be paid like a great player. And the Giants should want a great DL in his prime on their team. Unfortunately, it's gotten this far without a deal getting done.
It sounds like the Giants have told him they will tag him again if they can't work out a deal. And now he's trying to get tagged at the DE level ($21.4M) rather than DT. (He played most of his snaps as a DE last year.)
A 3-4 DE is a DT. They went through this last year. He is not the traditional DE for a 4-3 defense.
I completely disagree with your take about his effort not always being there. He is the definition of consistent. People wanted the production in the form of sacks but his run D and pressures were always consistent. The consistency line in the article is about how he took on double teams and nowhere has anyone ever questioned his effort.
First of all I don't think the article I shared above says it's just a double team thing. I think that's part of it but there are two different statements
Quote:
He’s a very gifted and talented athlete who can be dominant but inconsistent,” the scout said. “He hasn’t played up to his talent level enough. You’re always concerned about a defensive linemen who struggles with consistently being able to fight off double-teams. The Giants need to find a way to get him to play up to his talent level.
Quote:
“It’s certainly curious how a player goes from being absolutely dominant to ‘just a guy,’”
The article quoted two different scouts, who both had this concern. I'm also linking a college scouting report from Walter Football, which again, as I said, effort questions are the only questions he had.
I'm not big on stats. This past year he seemed to come up bigger in bigger situations, he seemed to change the game more. Few were calling him elite last year. Hell, if the Giants thought he was elite last year he probably would have been signed. I'm not huge stats for linemen generally. But 30 QB hits this past year, 16 the year before. 14 TFL this past year 2 the year before. I don't think that large of a difference can be accounted for by luck.
Sure he's always been a great run stopper but I saw much more consistent penetration this year.
$22M per year and 50% or more of that coming in guarantees is simply crazy for a team that still has to rebuild a roster and become better than 6-10...
I'm at the point where I think applying the FT is too much. If there was a way to go sign-and-trade, that would be the absolute best outcome right now.
I remember arguing we should have traded LW at last season's trade deadline to get something back. For many of the concerns discussed.
We can replace LW with a combination of other players and scheme. It's just more vital right now to produce more points on offense. And almost 10ppg more compared to last year...
Applying the tag again serves no purpose. The team isn’t in some short term Super Bowl window. Okay with tag and trade but only if deal is locked and loaded.
If he won’t take NYG best offer then off to Free Agency he should go. Bid for him there if still makes economic sense.
I say let LW test the market; and if he gets an offer, ask him if we can have last look to match.
Unless LW wants to play both ways - DT/DE and LG - he just isn't worth the price with so many leaks on this team.
"Prescott has a lot of leverage. It doesn't hurt that the Cowboys imploded without him last season."
"He is the best of this class, one of the true stars in it."
"NFL careers can fall off a cliff quickly."
Not sure I understand all the "leverage" talk Dak has. And if there is a QB left at 10 I'd bet the Cowboys take him. Then the cards fall differently for the "#1" FA available.
The cowboys imploded for more reasons than Dak being out.
I commend the Cowboys if they franchise him, but I wouldn't say he has any leverage at all for a mega deal, and if he wants top dollar, go ahead and let him hit FA.
What other team would sign Dak to, say $40M, coming off his injury?
LW on the other hand is coming off a great season and will get paid by some team whether it's us or not. This writer is spot on with with LW's situation and we need to pay him $17-$20M.
Quote:
Does it really matter if he’s paid 20-21 instead of 18-19? We’re talking about 2 million or so more PER YEAR with an amortized cap hit. Is 2+ million more per year going to stop us from continuing to improve and fill in the holes? As I see it, absolutely not..
Well, I don't even want to pay $18M, so there is a big difference between that and $21, plus how much gets guaranteed is the key.
I think I'd be more comfortable with a 4 year deal. As compensation, I would guarantee a larger percentage of the deal than being discussed for a 5 year deal.
Matt, whatever the final figures are and how they arrive at that figure I’m certain will be to their mutual satisfaction even if the numbers aren’t what we’d ideally like to see
Quote:
player big bucks, then who can we ever pay big bucks to outside of a QB?
$20-21M isn't solid player big bucks. Tomlinson will get solid player bucks. $21M is elite DL bucks.
Well, he is the highest rated non QB FA, fwiw..Unfortunately, Elite money has gone to non-elite players for years. That’s today’s NFL
Quote:
$22M per year and 50% or more of that coming in guarantees is simply crazy for a team that still has to rebuild a roster and become better than 6-10...
I'm at the point where I think applying the FT is too much. If there was a way to go sign-and-trade, that would be the absolute best outcome right now.
I remember arguing we should have traded LW at last season's trade deadline to get something back. For many of the concerns discussed.
We can replace LW with a combination of other players and scheme. It's just more vital right now to produce more points on offense. And almost 10ppg more compared to last year...
Applying the tag again serves no purpose. The team isn’t in some short term Super Bowl window. Okay with tag and trade but only if deal is locked and loaded.
If he won’t take NYG best offer then off to Free Agency he should go. Bid for him there if still makes economic sense.
Quote:
that Williams was underperforming is very overblown. He had a very solid rookie season and he's been consistently good against the run - near the top of his peers.
A lot of the comments on his value boil down to many fans looking at stats like he is a DE. Just look at the derisive comments on BBI in 2019 when so many wanted to just judge him on sacks. It became a punchline.
Then when his sack numbers actually skyrocket, they find other things to poke at.
So no problem on your end coughing up a multi-year/$20-22M AAV for LW?
I wouldn't have a problem for two reasons:
1) Structuring the guarantees and the length of the contract will be important. I think that can be done to benefit both parties
2) We do not have a lot of long-term contracts or tight cap situations in the next few years. If the cap continues to rise, locking Williams in at $20M might be very preferential to having to try and get a more expensive replacement down the road.
Similar to these...
Quote:
In comment 15165979 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
that Williams was underperforming is very overblown. He had a very solid rookie season and he's been consistently good against the run - near the top of his peers.
A lot of the comments on his value boil down to many fans looking at stats like he is a DE. Just look at the derisive comments on BBI in 2019 when so many wanted to just judge him on sacks. It became a punchline.
Then when his sack numbers actually skyrocket, they find other things to poke at.
So no problem on your end coughing up a multi-year/$20-22M AAV for LW?
I wouldn't have a problem for two reasons:
1) Structuring the guarantees and the length of the contract will be important. I think that can be done to benefit both parties
2) We do not have a lot of long-term contracts or tight cap situations in the next few years. If the cap continues to rise, locking Williams in at $20M might be very preferential to having to try and get a more expensive replacement down the road.
#2 clearly makes sense but assume they factored that in already in the offer he is not taking now...
It sounds like the Giants have told him they will tag him again if they can't work out a deal. And now he's trying to get tagged at the DE level ($21.4M) rather than DT. (He played most of his snaps as a DE last year.)
A 3-4 DE is a DT. They went through this last year. He is not the traditional DE for a 4-3 defense.
I completely disagree with your take about his effort not always being there. He is the definition of consistent. People wanted the production in the form of sacks but his run D and pressures were always consistent. The consistency line in the article is about how he took on double teams and nowhere has anyone ever questioned his effort.
First of all I don't think the article I shared above says it's just a double team thing. I think that's part of it but there are two different statements
The article quoted two different scouts, who both had this concern. I'm also linking a college scouting report from Walter Football, which again, as I said, effort questions are the only questions he had.
I'm not big on stats. This past year he seemed to come up bigger in bigger situations, he seemed to change the game more. Few were calling him elite last year. Hell, if the Giants thought he was elite last year he probably would have been signed. I'm not huge stats for linemen generally. But 30 QB hits this past year, 16 the year before. 14 TFL this past year 2 the year before. I don't think that large of a difference can be accounted for by luck.
Sure he's always been a great run stopper but I saw much more consistent penetration this year.
Walter Football Draft Scouting Report - ( New Window )
Quote:
In comment 15166079 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
$22M per year and 50% or more of that coming in guarantees is simply crazy for a team that still has to rebuild a roster and become better than 6-10...
I'm at the point where I think applying the FT is too much. If there was a way to go sign-and-trade, that would be the absolute best outcome right now.
I remember arguing we should have traded LW at last season's trade deadline to get something back. For many of the concerns discussed.
We can replace LW with a combination of other players and scheme. It's just more vital right now to produce more points on offense. And almost 10ppg more compared to last year...
Applying the tag again serves no purpose. The team isn’t in some short term Super Bowl window. Okay with tag and trade but only if deal is locked and loaded.
If he won’t take NYG best offer then off to Free Agency he should go. Bid for him there if still makes economic sense.
I say let LW test the market; and if he gets an offer, ask him if we can have last look to match.
Unless LW wants to play both ways - DT/DE and LG - he just isn't worth the price with so many leaks on this team.
Because so far it has been.
"He is the best of this class, one of the true stars in it."
"NFL careers can fall off a cliff quickly."
Not sure I understand all the "leverage" talk Dak has. And if there is a QB left at 10 I'd bet the Cowboys take him. Then the cards fall differently for the "#1" FA available.
The cowboys imploded for more reasons than Dak being out.
I commend the Cowboys if they franchise him, but I wouldn't say he has any leverage at all for a mega deal, and if he wants top dollar, go ahead and let him hit FA.
What other team would sign Dak to, say $40M, coming off his injury?
LW on the other hand is coming off a great season and will get paid by some team whether it's us or not. This writer is spot on with with LW's situation and we need to pay him $17-$20M.