I'm going to think on reaching out to FMiC myself.
Not sure how much I could hope for understanding, but perhaps we can get somewhere on rules of engagement. I think it might be too late for that but I certainly see your point especially about the mods, where perhaps I haven't done enough to put forth legit olive branches in a more direct way without reaching for the stick.
I think it is an especially good point that sometimes people speak from a moral high ground when the hill they are standing on is inches above the one they are shouting "down" from. And even that perception of height differential could be measured at varying results depending on the individuals perspective.
RE: tribalism here and that there is too much in the world... We have way too much common ground for the sticks to outnumber the carrots as much as they do here sometimes. I do think it's worth saying that I appreciate that you and some others that might slant in the other "tribe" make efforts to agree on some shared truths. Especially for those who might just be reading the site, who might be less knowledgeable in some of the areas others are. When two sides are dealing in different truths we lose even a tenuous grasp on any kind of "truth" of value.
So I will thank you for that. For your efforts to find where we can agree, even when I've overreached in moments I'm not having my best thoughts. In moments when I think we both know there are things that you and others on this site have very real interpersonal feelings on that there isn't an equivalent of for me.
I'll also use this as an opportunity to thank posters like Sean, Eric in LI, Thegratefulhead, pjcas18, arc (RIP I guess?) and others who do a good job of holding onto civility even when on different sides of the debate and not necessarily receiving it. And JonC who always seems to find a way to come in with a perspective which is measured enough that is is hard to detect much of a slant.
Even ryanmkeane who I'm pretty sure could tell you it was a beautiful day completely soaked in rain has managed to keep things civil 100% of the time to the best of my knowledge.
Regardless, the point of this is I'm happy to commit a greater effort to reduce tribalism and civility even if that means toning down my pursuit of what I feel is "right." Even if it means a willingness to call out people more in my "tribe" if I see behavior that is not helping the quality of debates. And to anyone that may have given up on trying to find middle ground with me, I hope to change your minds.
I think the beauty of smaller communities is that while faced with all the same challenges of larger ones there are ways to handle those challenges better and I'm personally committed to being part of the solution here.
Back to BBI conduct, the terms “defamatory” and “disrupts” the community atmosphere are subject to interpretation. You maybe saw my post above where I asked the mods whether they had a more precise set of standards that they used among themselves to judge problematic behavior. I think those precise standards are needed, because I am seeing occasional behavior by long-time posters that would get a newbie banned. We need more “rule of law” and less “rule of man.”
And to all my fellow BBIers, I want to say that almost al, of the best posters here literally never - and I mean never- resort to personal attacks. So it can be done.
The worst part of it is that it spreads to everyone. I used to spend a part of every day on this website until one day a few years back I sent an email to Eric to delete my account. I had gone from a poster who wanted to learn and help others learn to a nasty, name calling jerk because that was the atmosphere and I adapted to fit in. I still only come on here once or twice a week at most because the toxic atmosphere is just brutal.
BBB — I’ve always found you to be an enjoyable read on this site.
For what it’s worth, I think it’s important to only engage with folks who are looking to get the same thing out of BBI as I do. I’m looking to debate, learn, and enjoy chatting about football.
There are a select few folks on this site who seemingly revel in being rude, right, and controlling. It’s a strange place to flex that muscle in my view.
usually ends up being a roll call of people claiming to take the high road. There are things I need to tone down and certain arguments I will let go.
But acting like this is a site where people are just looking to have a kumbaya and looking to learn from one another is a lot of empty air. Posters who want to do that wouldn't pose a topic by saying people are "cap deniers".
Posters wouldn't stand beside known dupes and trolls simply because they hold a similar position. What do they do? Band against posters who hold the opposing viewpoint. I hammer against the opposing viewpoint continually. Just own that.
That's why the high road is a lonely place. A lot of people look up and say they are taking it, but it's as empty as an express lane in Butte, Montana.
Bill is right, we have become too tribal. Often depending who is online, one or a small group of posters will get targeted by many. Both tribes do this.
It is a good observation. It has become tribal and not very different than the tribal discussions we see around politics in other places like Facebook.
Once you pick "as side", somehow people have the inability to admit (ever) that the other side has a point. It is that way when discussing politics and also that way depending on whether you like Dave Gettleman for example.
So now we have people who look for ANY opportunity to bring their skewed point of view into a discussion that has nothing to do with that topic. The derailment of what starts as a good discussion ends up sounding like every other thread
Bill is right, we have become too tribal. Often depending who is online, one or a small group of posters will get targeted by many. Both tribes do this.
It is a good observation. It has become tribal and not very different than the tribal discussions we see around politics in other places like Facebook.
Once you pick "as side", somehow people have the inability to admit (ever) that the other side has a point. It is that way when discussing politics and also that way depending on whether you like Dave Gettleman for example.
So now we have people who look for ANY opportunity to bring their skewed point of view into a discussion that has nothing to do with that topic. The derailment of what starts as a good discussion ends up sounding like every other thread
I can't get into the "tribal" debate because I honestly have no clue about and don't pay ateention to sides,dupe, etc. I just know I agree with that last point you made that whatever this dynamic is, most football threads quickly denigrate into the same pissing matches, which is why I spend significantly less time on BBI.
usually ends up being a roll call of people claiming to take the high road. There are things I need to tone down and certain arguments I will let go.
But acting like this is a site where people are just looking to have a kumbaya and looking to learn from one another is a lot of empty air. Posters who want to do that wouldn't pose a topic by saying people are "cap deniers".
That's second time you've brought that up, and for the second time I will remind you it's a joke between DJM and I -- that he got, laughed at, and we had a nice debate about on the thread. And furthermore, do you find that to be a sensibility offending comment?
Massive false equivalency between a pretty tepid joke and your behavior. Not in the same ballpark.
No one is looking for kumbaya. You conveniently left out the part about debate. That's the heart of what most people do on BBI, debate their points of view.
Yea, welcome to the world of UFA. Guys get paid when they are FA.
He's off the books now. We can all sleep well at night.
Not only that, but when you need a player at a certain position, your choices are your choices at that moment during the off season. In fact, it is worse than that because what we do not see are the players who we wanted but we were outbid and the players who simply refused to come and play for a losing franchise.
Sometimes the free agent market is a lot like the toilet paper shelves during the pandemic. You may want Charmin but you are getting store brand and at that moment, you may be paying the Charmin price for it too due to supply and demand.
Yea, welcome to the world of UFA. Guys get paid when they are FA.
Not your best.
Guys “get paid”? Yes. When you pay way too much for a guy like this the team suffers for years.
It was a terrible move and not just because of the money which was outrageous. Over 2 years he was paid like. #1 and he played like a role player (that he is).
And there is a big difference in the toilet paper example. You buy bad toilet paper once it doesn’t increase the probability that you will need to buy bad toilet paper again.
Overpaying for free agents is a known major factor in a cycle of losing seasons. If the concern is that free agents don’t want to sign with your team because it isn’t good enough, the way out is drafting well not overpaying for FAs because your options are limited.
Sometimes the free agent market is a lot like the toilet paper shelves during the pandemic. You may want Charmin but you are getting store brand and at that moment, you may be paying the Charmin price for it too due to supply and demand.
I only partially agree with this. The need for a WR was self-inflicted. They made themselves desperate, and then overspent on that desperation
If your car dies, and you gotta get to work somehow, I'm not going to feel sorry for you if you bought a '94 Benz highly above value, and then you find yourself broke. Just because you or I can't immediately name an option out there as an alternative doesn't mean there wasnt one. They were desperate for wins and desperate to fill a significant roster hole, and what makes the move stink more is that they justified it as a better "culture" fit when the guy was and has been a knucklehead.
No one is looking for kumbaya. You conveniently left out the part about debate. That's the heart of what most people do on BBI, debate their points of view.
Exactly.
This is a debate site - largely - about the Giants. And if you are going to get into the debate circle - put your thoughts out there into this market of ideas - expect to get challenged. Sometimes those challenges are reasonable and high level. Sometimes that challenges are hard, uncomfortable and visceral.
But I've always accepted those terms and possibilities and simply manage around the different personalities and styles. And never take anything personally.
To me, watching posters resort to name calling and abuse is (usually) more a reflection on them than the target.
I have always been impressed with your ability to not take comments personally here. You seem to easily let things go which isn't easy, especially for me.
This is a debate site - largely - about the Giants. And if you are going to get into the debate circle - put your thoughts out there into this market of ideas - expect to get challenged. Sometimes those challenges are reasonable and high level. Sometimes that challenges are hard, uncomfortable and visceral.
But I've always accepted those terms and possibilities and simply manage around the different personalities and styles. And never take anything personally.
To me, watching posters resort to name calling and abuse is (usually) more a reflection on them than the target.
Couldn't agree more. It always comes down to why post here. I know exactly why I do. I enjoy debating and learning about football.
My guess rate isn't any better than anyone's. I'd like to think my opinions are typically factual, but even then I get my fair share wrong.
I don't mind the occasional ass kicking I've gotten over the years from posters like you, Bill2, Go Terps, Robbie, etc. guys I know for a fact know more about football than me.
If we have a couple of weak points about ourselves that we should work on instead of focusing on what we feel others should work on. We can control what we choose to work on while we simply cannot control what others choose to work on.
I for one have a tendency to let things get to me too easily, a bit thin skinned.
I focus too much on what I perceive are other's problems and not my own.
I have a tendency to dismiss too easily thoughts and ideas from those that don't think like me.
These aren't all or what I should work on, but they are what come to mind immediately.
Lastly, I admit to being a problem with tribal wars so to speak. I feel that I think more closely or similarly to posters like Britt, FMIC. I certainly admit that I am not as likely to openly disagree with their takes than I am with other posters. So, we can add honesty to my list of areas that need attention.
usually ends up being a roll call of people claiming to take the high road. There are things I need to tone down and certain arguments I will let go.
But acting like this is a site where people are just looking to have a kumbaya and looking to learn from one another is a lot of empty air. Posters who want to do that wouldn't pose a topic by saying people are "cap deniers".
That's second time you've brought that up, and for the second time I will remind you it's a joke between DJM and I -- that he got, laughed at, and we had a nice debate about on the thread. And furthermore, do you find that to be a sensibility offending comment?
Massive false equivalency between a pretty tepid joke and your behavior. Not in the same ballpark.
No one is looking for kumbaya. You conveniently left out the part about debate. That's the heart of what most people do on BBI, debate their points of view.
I think it is time to take this debate up a level and focus on the culture we want to have and not on individuals at this time.
crick has a good point about not disagreeing with "your" tribe, and not accepting fair points from the "other" tribe. I think in a reasonable debate, we all need to be more intellectually honest than we have become. I know that there are times I disagree with "team critical" and I don't voice such, and times that "team optimistic" makes a fair point that I fail to acknowledge.
In the end, this should be a place to learn and debate. For most part we post opinions. Nobody should be persecuted for their opinion. Disagree sure, present counter evidence sure. Try to stay above the personal, and try to stay intellectually honest.
And no, I don't want a massive kumbaya either. It's ok to call out the dumb, but call out the post as dumb, not the poster.
There's a lot of duplicitous attacks on Fatman in this thread. If you think he's the problem with this site, grow some thicker skin. Your ego is overriding your logic.
RE: Men will literally write 1000 word posts on FMiC
There's a lot of duplicitous attacks on Fatman in this thread. If you think he's the problem with this site, grow some thicker skin. Your ego is overriding your logic.
As I said above, I am hoping this debate stays at the site culture level and not focus on individuals for better or worse.
RE: RE: Men will literally write 1000 word posts on FMiC
There's a lot of duplicitous attacks on Fatman in this thread. If you think he's the problem with this site, grow some thicker skin. Your ego is overriding your logic.
As I said above, I am hoping this debate stays at the site culture level and not focus on individuals for better or worse.
It won't happen in this debate, but hopefully for future ones. This debate is pretty much beaten to death:)
usually ends up being a roll call of people claiming to take the high road. There are things I need to tone down and certain arguments I will let go.
But acting like this is a site where people are just looking to have a kumbaya and looking to learn from one another is a lot of empty air. Posters who want to do that wouldn't pose a topic by saying people are "cap deniers".
That's second time you've brought that up, and for the second time I will remind you it's a joke between DJM and I -- that he got, laughed at, and we had a nice debate about on the thread. And furthermore, do you find that to be a sensibility offending comment?
Massive false equivalency between a pretty tepid joke and your behavior. Not in the same ballpark.
No one is looking for kumbaya. You conveniently left out the part about debate. That's the heart of what most people do on BBI, debate their points of view.
It's shaping up to be another shitty day on BBI for FMIC.
He might even have to learn how to use a spreadsheet.
usually ends up being a roll call of people claiming to take the high road. There are things I need to tone down and certain arguments I will let go.
But acting like this is a site where people are just looking to have a kumbaya and looking to learn from one another is a lot of empty air. Posters who want to do that wouldn't pose a topic by saying people are "cap deniers".
That's second time you've brought that up, and for the second time I will remind you it's a joke between DJM and I -- that he got, laughed at, and we had a nice debate about on the thread. And furthermore, do you find that to be a sensibility offending comment?
Massive false equivalency between a pretty tepid joke and your behavior. Not in the same ballpark.
No one is looking for kumbaya. You conveniently left out the part about debate. That's the heart of what most people do on BBI, debate their points of view.
It's shaping up to be another shitty day on BBI for FMIC.
He might even have to learn how to use a spreadsheet.
C'mon GD... Let's stay classy here.
RE: Men will literally write 1000 word posts on FMiC
There's a lot of duplicitous attacks on Fatman in this thread. If you think he's the problem with this site, grow some thicker skin. Your ego is overriding your logic.
So you think making multiple comments on other people's mental health in a thread you aren't involved in is healthier than interacting with posts directed at you.
Where can I buy your book on message board psychology and mental health?
RE: RE: Men will literally write 1000 word posts on FMiC
There's a lot of duplicitous attacks on Fatman in this thread. If you think he's the problem with this site, grow some thicker skin. Your ego is overriding your logic.
So you think making multiple comments on other people's mental health in a thread you aren't involved in is healthier than interacting with posts directed at you.
Where can I buy your book on message board psychology and mental health?
Dude. Shut the fuck up. You're the most pompous, self-important poster on this site. Everyone gets shit. But you are on some pedestal beyond rebuke? Fuck that. You've written twenty dissertations in this thread rather than succumb to the fact that we're all assholes here. Even you.
He made a personal jab at me and then a generally one about my mental health.
I made a joke about his psychological qualifications.
If you want me to admit that I'm willing to punch back if someone punches me than yes I am. Definitely tried to punch a lot softer than him though.
I don't think making a joke about someone's psychology qualifications is a personal attack and I am trying to stay away from those. But maybe that's just me and maybe it would be worth it to talk about what a personal attack is
To me personal attack would have to cut someone down in some way be universally insulting. I might use the test of, would I say this to a friend. And I absolutely would have no problem putting that same phrase back to a friend if they voiced an un-requested opinion on my mental health
RE: I don't think I've seen someone so thin skinned as NGD
Must be the spoiled upper middle class upbringing... At least my own spoiled upper middle class upbringing taught me perspective and shit. I don't need a pat on the back for writing a good forum post. Jesus Christ.
See a therapist, dude.
Oh actually I gave him a kinder read. He came for my mental health twice. Perhaps you missed this McL?
He made a personal jab at me and then a generally one about my mental health.
I made a joke about his psychological qualifications.
If you want me to admit that I'm willing to punch back if someone punches me than yes I am. Definitely tried to punch a lot softer than him though.
I don't think making a joke about someone's psychology qualifications is a personal attack and I am trying to stay away from those. But maybe that's just me and maybe it would be worth it to talk about what a personal attack is
To me personal attack would have to cut someone down in some way be universally insulting. I might use the test of, would I say this to a friend. And I absolutely would have no problem putting that same phrase back to a friend if they voiced an un-requested opinion on my mental health
Please stop NGD...
In my post "To FMiC", the last paragraph I addressed the site. There were some good responses, I thought we were making progress in discussing the tribal culture and what we can do about it. I would prefer to not derail THAT discussion. I'd already responded to adam, hoping to continue the culture discussion, no need to take it further. Please save your disagreements with adam for another thread.
Saying someone should see a therapist isn't an attack on their mental
but we were making progress and this guy came in with a potshot about mental health when we were trying to find common ground.
It's not a tribe thing. It was an unnecessary comment.
I'll reiterate I can be more respectful but I'm not going to ignore what I believe to be over the line to me personally.
I ignored the first one, not going to let someone just keep taking shots at me without coming back with something.
Again, my response was a lot softer. And if he was as serious about mental health as he claimed he wouldn't be taking potshots about people RE: mental health.
I would love to be able to say FMiC is the problem. There are a lot bigger problems with BBI than that tho.
I agree, thus the discussion to which I keep trying to bring this thread back.
I admire what you're aiming at. But FMiC and NGD both have fragile egos who thrive on that unhealthy culture. Fat man can resort to personal attacks, NGD can resort to passive aggression and calling the mods. I really don't see how you solve that without just ignoring certain posters. Generally I stay away from both of them. Sometimes they add some insight, sometimes their drama takes over threads. This thread devolved into people taking potshots at Fat man like NGD had nothing to do with it. So I said something. Fat man has a point. NGD has a point.
I do go at people that come at me, that's just my wiring. But I can soften that and have but he has come at me far more than I've come at him in this thread and I'm not prepared to say I won't punch back. Again, I ignored the first one.
I think that is a fair part of this discussion if we are talking about how we want the board to work. Punch back in a way you can confidently say is softer by a good margin just seems a lot more realistic than don't punch back at all.
RE: I didn't take a shot at your mental health genius
BBB — I’ve always found you to be an enjoyable read on this site.
For what it’s worth, I think it’s important to only engage with folks who are looking to get the same thing out of BBI as I do. I’m looking to debate, learn, and enjoy chatting about football.
There are a select few folks on this site who seemingly revel in being rude, right, and controlling. It’s a strange place to flex that muscle in my view.
There are a number of people who post solely to be rude/nasty. I don't know what a lot of these people think - they'd rather just shit on other posters. There are a bunch of people who care way too much about their BBI cred so they avoid voicing an actual opinion.
And it's the same cast of characters bouncing from thread to thread to shit on one another.
And truth be told I'm in therapy, not afraid to admit that
I wouldn't say problems of sensitivity or my interactions on BBI have ever even been close to my radar on things to discuss in therapy.
I have very few real life problems or confrontations with anyone, most people find me to be a very kind, positive, happy person.
While I can own my role in my issues with some posters here, I will say that the culture of abuse was here far before me and is far too rampant. My first post on BBI was actually about how people should be nicer, I think I was 14. I think there was a time that the Giants were world class organization so it seemed more fun and games to bat away with no remorse what were likely more nit picks of decisions.
What for the life of me I can't understand or draw an equivalency of is this:
Me and some other posters have some very real frustrations with the way the Giants have been run, a management style it would be hard not to describe as prioritizing familiarity over any kind of metrics of success. Any kind of care for their fans vs. their smaller tribe. I have a much harder time understanding the frustration with people expressing these legitimate frustrations. I'm not invalidating those secondary frustrations just saying it feels like they are often equated and they really aren't equal.
and will apologize for the impression I've left on you to this point. I can own my part in a lot of disruptions.
I try to have a growth mindset with things and even though I have work to do here, I realize you aren't the only one that thinks I've been way too pompous and that isn't the impression I'd like to leave.
I think the force I've felt against my points and even my integrity at times has left me pushing back much harder and talking about myself and my points differently than I otherwise would.
But I would like to work on it and I have been trying since I came back to BBI a lot. If you think I'm overreaching please don't hesitate to call it out. If you email me at the profile I have listed here I will email you back with my real email address if you'd rather share stuff privately.
If you feel it would be better to resume mostly ignoring me no hard feelings but I am serious about doing better here and I want my words and actions to be aligned on that.
1. We cannot count on the Mods to help us. They want to stay above the fray (rightfully so), but they have also shown some significant biases of their own.
2. If we cannot count on the mods then we must police ourselves. I see two methods of enforcement for us as posters. I'm just going to spitball this a little, feel free to disagree... It seems to me that, either we ignore those who transgress, I.E. the "Don't Feed The Trolls" approach. Or a third party needs to call out the trolls. Probably some combination of the two. And when calling out a troll, leave room for the person to save a little face. Don't shout that they are being a troll. Perhaps a comment more like, "Hey so and so, that seems a bit trollish, are you sure you want to go there?". And then don't feed the troll any further.
and will apologize for the impression I've left on you to this point. I can own my part in a lot of disruptions.
I try to have a growth mindset with things and even though I have work to do here, I realize you aren't the only one that thinks I've been way too pompous and that isn't the impression I'd like to leave.
I think the force I've felt against my points and even my integrity at times has left me pushing back much harder and talking about myself and my points differently than I otherwise would.
But I would like to work on it and I have been trying since I came back to BBI a lot. If you think I'm overreaching please don't hesitate to call it out. If you email me at the profile I have listed here I will email you back with my real email address if you'd rather share stuff privately.
If you feel it would be better to resume mostly ignoring me no hard feelings but I am serious about doing better here and I want my words and actions to be aligned on that.
And respectful posts towards others go a long way even if I don't believe that they deserve a thoughtful and respectful reply. Asking sincere questions instead of assuming are helpful as well.
And respectful posts towards others go a long way even if I don't believe that they deserve a thoughtful and respectful reply. Asking sincere questions instead of assuming are helpful as well.
Good work Mcl
I agree wholeheartedly that mostly we need to look at our own behavior.
That said there will always be habitual offenders. As a community, I think we would benefit from a protocol to deal with those folks.
Not sure how much I could hope for understanding, but perhaps we can get somewhere on rules of engagement. I think it might be too late for that but I certainly see your point especially about the mods, where perhaps I haven't done enough to put forth legit olive branches in a more direct way without reaching for the stick.
I think it is an especially good point that sometimes people speak from a moral high ground when the hill they are standing on is inches above the one they are shouting "down" from. And even that perception of height differential could be measured at varying results depending on the individuals perspective.
RE: tribalism here and that there is too much in the world... We have way too much common ground for the sticks to outnumber the carrots as much as they do here sometimes. I do think it's worth saying that I appreciate that you and some others that might slant in the other "tribe" make efforts to agree on some shared truths. Especially for those who might just be reading the site, who might be less knowledgeable in some of the areas others are. When two sides are dealing in different truths we lose even a tenuous grasp on any kind of "truth" of value.
So I will thank you for that. For your efforts to find where we can agree, even when I've overreached in moments I'm not having my best thoughts. In moments when I think we both know there are things that you and others on this site have very real interpersonal feelings on that there isn't an equivalent of for me.
I'll also use this as an opportunity to thank posters like Sean, Eric in LI, Thegratefulhead, pjcas18, arc (RIP I guess?) and others who do a good job of holding onto civility even when on different sides of the debate and not necessarily receiving it. And JonC who always seems to find a way to come in with a perspective which is measured enough that is is hard to detect much of a slant.
Even ryanmkeane who I'm pretty sure could tell you it was a beautiful day completely soaked in rain has managed to keep things civil 100% of the time to the best of my knowledge.
Regardless, the point of this is I'm happy to commit a greater effort to reduce tribalism and civility even if that means toning down my pursuit of what I feel is "right." Even if it means a willingness to call out people more in my "tribe" if I see behavior that is not helping the quality of debates. And to anyone that may have given up on trying to find middle ground with me, I hope to change your minds.
I think the beauty of smaller communities is that while faced with all the same challenges of larger ones there are ways to handle those challenges better and I'm personally committed to being part of the solution here.
And to all my fellow BBIers, I want to say that almost al, of the best posters here literally never - and I mean never- resort to personal attacks. So it can be done.
The worst part of it is that it spreads to everyone. I used to spend a part of every day on this website until one day a few years back I sent an email to Eric to delete my account. I had gone from a poster who wanted to learn and help others learn to a nasty, name calling jerk because that was the atmosphere and I adapted to fit in. I still only come on here once or twice a week at most because the toxic atmosphere is just brutal.
For what it’s worth, I think it’s important to only engage with folks who are looking to get the same thing out of BBI as I do. I’m looking to debate, learn, and enjoy chatting about football.
There are a select few folks on this site who seemingly revel in being rude, right, and controlling. It’s a strange place to flex that muscle in my view.
But acting like this is a site where people are just looking to have a kumbaya and looking to learn from one another is a lot of empty air. Posters who want to do that wouldn't pose a topic by saying people are "cap deniers".
Posters wouldn't stand beside known dupes and trolls simply because they hold a similar position. What do they do? Band against posters who hold the opposing viewpoint. I hammer against the opposing viewpoint continually. Just own that.
That's why the high road is a lonely place. A lot of people look up and say they are taking it, but it's as empty as an express lane in Butte, Montana.
It is a good observation. It has become tribal and not very different than the tribal discussions we see around politics in other places like Facebook.
Once you pick "as side", somehow people have the inability to admit (ever) that the other side has a point. It is that way when discussing politics and also that way depending on whether you like Dave Gettleman for example.
So now we have people who look for ANY opportunity to bring their skewed point of view into a discussion that has nothing to do with that topic. The derailment of what starts as a good discussion ends up sounding like every other thread
Quote:
Bill is right, we have become too tribal. Often depending who is online, one or a small group of posters will get targeted by many. Both tribes do this.
It is a good observation. It has become tribal and not very different than the tribal discussions we see around politics in other places like Facebook.
Once you pick "as side", somehow people have the inability to admit (ever) that the other side has a point. It is that way when discussing politics and also that way depending on whether you like Dave Gettleman for example.
So now we have people who look for ANY opportunity to bring their skewed point of view into a discussion that has nothing to do with that topic. The derailment of what starts as a good discussion ends up sounding like every other thread
But acting like this is a site where people are just looking to have a kumbaya and looking to learn from one another is a lot of empty air. Posters who want to do that wouldn't pose a topic by saying people are "cap deniers".
That's second time you've brought that up, and for the second time I will remind you it's a joke between DJM and I -- that he got, laughed at, and we had a nice debate about on the thread. And furthermore, do you find that to be a sensibility offending comment?
Massive false equivalency between a pretty tepid joke and your behavior. Not in the same ballpark.
No one is looking for kumbaya. You conveniently left out the part about debate. That's the heart of what most people do on BBI, debate their points of view.
Yea, welcome to the world of UFA. Guys get paid when they are FA.
He's off the books now. We can all sleep well at night.
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Only 15 WRs made more.
Yea, welcome to the world of UFA. Guys get paid when they are FA.
He's off the books now. We can all sleep well at night.
Not only that, but when you need a player at a certain position, your choices are your choices at that moment during the off season. In fact, it is worse than that because what we do not see are the players who we wanted but we were outbid and the players who simply refused to come and play for a losing franchise.
Sometimes the free agent market is a lot like the toilet paper shelves during the pandemic. You may want Charmin but you are getting store brand and at that moment, you may be paying the Charmin price for it too due to supply and demand.
Not your best.
Guys “get paid”? Yes. When you pay way too much for a guy like this the team suffers for years.
It was a terrible move and not just because of the money which was outrageous. Over 2 years he was paid like. #1 and he played like a role player (that he is).
And there is a big difference in the toilet paper example. You buy bad toilet paper once it doesn’t increase the probability that you will need to buy bad toilet paper again.
Overpaying for free agents is a known major factor in a cycle of losing seasons. If the concern is that free agents don’t want to sign with your team because it isn’t good enough, the way out is drafting well not overpaying for FAs because your options are limited.
Sometimes the free agent market is a lot like the toilet paper shelves during the pandemic. You may want Charmin but you are getting store brand and at that moment, you may be paying the Charmin price for it too due to supply and demand.
I only partially agree with this. The need for a WR was self-inflicted. They made themselves desperate, and then overspent on that desperation
If your car dies, and you gotta get to work somehow, I'm not going to feel sorry for you if you bought a '94 Benz highly above value, and then you find yourself broke. Just because you or I can't immediately name an option out there as an alternative doesn't mean there wasnt one. They were desperate for wins and desperate to fill a significant roster hole, and what makes the move stink more is that they justified it as a better "culture" fit when the guy was and has been a knucklehead.
No one is looking for kumbaya. You conveniently left out the part about debate. That's the heart of what most people do on BBI, debate their points of view.
Exactly.
This is a debate site - largely - about the Giants. And if you are going to get into the debate circle - put your thoughts out there into this market of ideas - expect to get challenged. Sometimes those challenges are reasonable and high level. Sometimes that challenges are hard, uncomfortable and visceral.
But I've always accepted those terms and possibilities and simply manage around the different personalities and styles. And never take anything personally.
To me, watching posters resort to name calling and abuse is (usually) more a reflection on them than the target.
This is a debate site - largely - about the Giants. And if you are going to get into the debate circle - put your thoughts out there into this market of ideas - expect to get challenged. Sometimes those challenges are reasonable and high level. Sometimes that challenges are hard, uncomfortable and visceral.
But I've always accepted those terms and possibilities and simply manage around the different personalities and styles. And never take anything personally.
To me, watching posters resort to name calling and abuse is (usually) more a reflection on them than the target.
Couldn't agree more. It always comes down to why post here. I know exactly why I do. I enjoy debating and learning about football.
My guess rate isn't any better than anyone's. I'd like to think my opinions are typically factual, but even then I get my fair share wrong.
I don't mind the occasional ass kicking I've gotten over the years from posters like you, Bill2, Go Terps, Robbie, etc. guys I know for a fact know more about football than me.
I for one have a tendency to let things get to me too easily, a bit thin skinned.
I focus too much on what I perceive are other's problems and not my own.
I have a tendency to dismiss too easily thoughts and ideas from those that don't think like me.
These aren't all or what I should work on, but they are what come to mind immediately.
Lastly, I admit to being a problem with tribal wars so to speak. I feel that I think more closely or similarly to posters like Britt, FMIC. I certainly admit that I am not as likely to openly disagree with their takes than I am with other posters. So, we can add honesty to my list of areas that need attention.
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usually ends up being a roll call of people claiming to take the high road. There are things I need to tone down and certain arguments I will let go.
But acting like this is a site where people are just looking to have a kumbaya and looking to learn from one another is a lot of empty air. Posters who want to do that wouldn't pose a topic by saying people are "cap deniers".
That's second time you've brought that up, and for the second time I will remind you it's a joke between DJM and I -- that he got, laughed at, and we had a nice debate about on the thread. And furthermore, do you find that to be a sensibility offending comment?
Massive false equivalency between a pretty tepid joke and your behavior. Not in the same ballpark.
No one is looking for kumbaya. You conveniently left out the part about debate. That's the heart of what most people do on BBI, debate their points of view.
I think it is time to take this debate up a level and focus on the culture we want to have and not on individuals at this time.
crick has a good point about not disagreeing with "your" tribe, and not accepting fair points from the "other" tribe. I think in a reasonable debate, we all need to be more intellectually honest than we have become. I know that there are times I disagree with "team critical" and I don't voice such, and times that "team optimistic" makes a fair point that I fail to acknowledge.
In the end, this should be a place to learn and debate. For most part we post opinions. Nobody should be persecuted for their opinion. Disagree sure, present counter evidence sure. Try to stay above the personal, and try to stay intellectually honest.
And no, I don't want a massive kumbaya either. It's ok to call out the dumb, but call out the post as dumb, not the poster.
There's a lot of duplicitous attacks on Fatman in this thread. If you think he's the problem with this site, grow some thicker skin. Your ego is overriding your logic.
There's a lot of duplicitous attacks on Fatman in this thread. If you think he's the problem with this site, grow some thicker skin. Your ego is overriding your logic.
As I said above, I am hoping this debate stays at the site culture level and not focus on individuals for better or worse.
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Rather than go to therapy.
There's a lot of duplicitous attacks on Fatman in this thread. If you think he's the problem with this site, grow some thicker skin. Your ego is overriding your logic.
As I said above, I am hoping this debate stays at the site culture level and not focus on individuals for better or worse.
It won't happen in this debate, but hopefully for future ones. This debate is pretty much beaten to death:)
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usually ends up being a roll call of people claiming to take the high road. There are things I need to tone down and certain arguments I will let go.
But acting like this is a site where people are just looking to have a kumbaya and looking to learn from one another is a lot of empty air. Posters who want to do that wouldn't pose a topic by saying people are "cap deniers".
That's second time you've brought that up, and for the second time I will remind you it's a joke between DJM and I -- that he got, laughed at, and we had a nice debate about on the thread. And furthermore, do you find that to be a sensibility offending comment?
Massive false equivalency between a pretty tepid joke and your behavior. Not in the same ballpark.
No one is looking for kumbaya. You conveniently left out the part about debate. That's the heart of what most people do on BBI, debate their points of view.
It's shaping up to be another shitty day on BBI for FMIC.
He might even have to learn how to use a spreadsheet.
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In comment 15171554 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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usually ends up being a roll call of people claiming to take the high road. There are things I need to tone down and certain arguments I will let go.
But acting like this is a site where people are just looking to have a kumbaya and looking to learn from one another is a lot of empty air. Posters who want to do that wouldn't pose a topic by saying people are "cap deniers".
That's second time you've brought that up, and for the second time I will remind you it's a joke between DJM and I -- that he got, laughed at, and we had a nice debate about on the thread. And furthermore, do you find that to be a sensibility offending comment?
Massive false equivalency between a pretty tepid joke and your behavior. Not in the same ballpark.
No one is looking for kumbaya. You conveniently left out the part about debate. That's the heart of what most people do on BBI, debate their points of view.
It's shaping up to be another shitty day on BBI for FMIC.
He might even have to learn how to use a spreadsheet.
C'mon GD... Let's stay classy here.
There's a lot of duplicitous attacks on Fatman in this thread. If you think he's the problem with this site, grow some thicker skin. Your ego is overriding your logic.
So you think making multiple comments on other people's mental health in a thread you aren't involved in is healthier than interacting with posts directed at you.
Where can I buy your book on message board psychology and mental health?
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Rather than go to therapy.
There's a lot of duplicitous attacks on Fatman in this thread. If you think he's the problem with this site, grow some thicker skin. Your ego is overriding your logic.
So you think making multiple comments on other people's mental health in a thread you aren't involved in is healthier than interacting with posts directed at you.
Where can I buy your book on message board psychology and mental health?
Dude. Shut the fuck up. You're the most pompous, self-important poster on this site. Everyone gets shit. But you are on some pedestal beyond rebuke? Fuck that. You've written twenty dissertations in this thread rather than succumb to the fact that we're all assholes here. Even you.
It doesn't seem like we can stay above the personal on this thread (applies to NGD as well).
He made a personal jab at me and then a generally one about my mental health.
I made a joke about his psychological qualifications.
If you want me to admit that I'm willing to punch back if someone punches me than yes I am. Definitely tried to punch a lot softer than him though.
I don't think making a joke about someone's psychology qualifications is a personal attack and I am trying to stay away from those. But maybe that's just me and maybe it would be worth it to talk about what a personal attack is
To me personal attack would have to cut someone down in some way be universally insulting. I might use the test of, would I say this to a friend. And I absolutely would have no problem putting that same phrase back to a friend if they voiced an un-requested opinion on my mental health
See a therapist, dude.
Oh actually I gave him a kinder read. He came for my mental health twice. Perhaps you missed this McL?
It doesn't seem like we can stay above the personal on this thread (applies to NGD as well).
I would love to be able to say FMiC is the problem. There are a lot bigger problems with BBI than that tho.
Btw NGD, if you knew anything about me as a poster you would know I don't take mental health lightly. But your problem is ego, not illness.
He made a personal jab at me and then a generally one about my mental health.
I made a joke about his psychological qualifications.
If you want me to admit that I'm willing to punch back if someone punches me than yes I am. Definitely tried to punch a lot softer than him though.
I don't think making a joke about someone's psychology qualifications is a personal attack and I am trying to stay away from those. But maybe that's just me and maybe it would be worth it to talk about what a personal attack is
To me personal attack would have to cut someone down in some way be universally insulting. I might use the test of, would I say this to a friend. And I absolutely would have no problem putting that same phrase back to a friend if they voiced an un-requested opinion on my mental health
Please stop NGD...
In my post "To FMiC", the last paragraph I addressed the site. There were some good responses, I thought we were making progress in discussing the tribal culture and what we can do about it. I would prefer to not derail THAT discussion. I'd already responded to adam, hoping to continue the culture discussion, no need to take it further. Please save your disagreements with adam for another thread.
I'm attacking how you receive criticism which therapy might help with.
I agree, thus the discussion to which I keep trying to bring this thread back.
It's not a tribe thing. It was an unnecessary comment.
I'll reiterate I can be more respectful but I'm not going to ignore what I believe to be over the line to me personally.
I ignored the first one, not going to let someone just keep taking shots at me without coming back with something.
Again, my response was a lot softer. And if he was as serious about mental health as he claimed he wouldn't be taking potshots about people RE: mental health.
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I would love to be able to say FMiC is the problem. There are a lot bigger problems with BBI than that tho.
I agree, thus the discussion to which I keep trying to bring this thread back.
I admire what you're aiming at. But FMiC and NGD both have fragile egos who thrive on that unhealthy culture. Fat man can resort to personal attacks, NGD can resort to passive aggression and calling the mods. I really don't see how you solve that without just ignoring certain posters. Generally I stay away from both of them. Sometimes they add some insight, sometimes their drama takes over threads. This thread devolved into people taking potshots at Fat man like NGD had nothing to do with it. So I said something. Fat man has a point. NGD has a point.
The fact you can't tell the difference illustrates the problem.
I think that is a fair part of this discussion if we are talking about how we want the board to work. Punch back in a way you can confidently say is softer by a good margin just seems a lot more realistic than don't punch back at all.
The fact you can't tell the difference illustrates the problem.
This is you playing innocent, sorry, not going to fly. Suggesting someone needs therapy twice is absolutely taking a shot at their mental health.
For what it’s worth, I think it’s important to only engage with folks who are looking to get the same thing out of BBI as I do. I’m looking to debate, learn, and enjoy chatting about football.
There are a select few folks on this site who seemingly revel in being rude, right, and controlling. It’s a strange place to flex that muscle in my view.
There are a number of people who post solely to be rude/nasty. I don't know what a lot of these people think - they'd rather just shit on other posters. There are a bunch of people who care way too much about their BBI cred so they avoid voicing an actual opinion.
And it's the same cast of characters bouncing from thread to thread to shit on one another.
I wouldn't say problems of sensitivity or my interactions on BBI have ever even been close to my radar on things to discuss in therapy.
I have very few real life problems or confrontations with anyone, most people find me to be a very kind, positive, happy person.
While I can own my role in my issues with some posters here, I will say that the culture of abuse was here far before me and is far too rampant. My first post on BBI was actually about how people should be nicer, I think I was 14. I think there was a time that the Giants were world class organization so it seemed more fun and games to bat away with no remorse what were likely more nit picks of decisions.
What for the life of me I can't understand or draw an equivalency of is this:
Me and some other posters have some very real frustrations with the way the Giants have been run, a management style it would be hard not to describe as prioritizing familiarity over any kind of metrics of success. Any kind of care for their fans vs. their smaller tribe. I have a much harder time understanding the frustration with people expressing these legitimate frustrations. I'm not invalidating those secondary frustrations just saying it feels like they are often equated and they really aren't equal.
May I suggest that you both drop it now, please...
I try to have a growth mindset with things and even though I have work to do here, I realize you aren't the only one that thinks I've been way too pompous and that isn't the impression I'd like to leave.
I think the force I've felt against my points and even my integrity at times has left me pushing back much harder and talking about myself and my points differently than I otherwise would.
But I would like to work on it and I have been trying since I came back to BBI a lot. If you think I'm overreaching please don't hesitate to call it out. If you email me at the profile I have listed here I will email you back with my real email address if you'd rather share stuff privately.
If you feel it would be better to resume mostly ignoring me no hard feelings but I am serious about doing better here and I want my words and actions to be aligned on that.
May I suggest that you both drop it now, please...
Lol isn't this what you wanted?
I'm going to start a fire and get my guitar...
1. We cannot count on the Mods to help us. They want to stay above the fray (rightfully so), but they have also shown some significant biases of their own.
2. If we cannot count on the mods then we must police ourselves. I see two methods of enforcement for us as posters. I'm just going to spitball this a little, feel free to disagree... It seems to me that, either we ignore those who transgress, I.E. the "Don't Feed The Trolls" approach. Or a third party needs to call out the trolls. Probably some combination of the two. And when calling out a troll, leave room for the person to save a little face. Don't shout that they are being a troll. Perhaps a comment more like, "Hey so and so, that seems a bit trollish, are you sure you want to go there?". And then don't feed the troll any further.
I try to have a growth mindset with things and even though I have work to do here, I realize you aren't the only one that thinks I've been way too pompous and that isn't the impression I'd like to leave.
I think the force I've felt against my points and even my integrity at times has left me pushing back much harder and talking about myself and my points differently than I otherwise would.
But I would like to work on it and I have been trying since I came back to BBI a lot. If you think I'm overreaching please don't hesitate to call it out. If you email me at the profile I have listed here I will email you back with my real email address if you'd rather share stuff privately.
If you feel it would be better to resume mostly ignoring me no hard feelings but I am serious about doing better here and I want my words and actions to be aligned on that.
Good post NGD.
Good work Mcl
Good work Mcl
I agree wholeheartedly that mostly we need to look at our own behavior.
That said there will always be habitual offenders. As a community, I think we would benefit from a protocol to deal with those folks.