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Giants release Tate

jlukes : 3/3/2021 6:55 pm
Per twitter
Adios  
UGADawgs7 : 3/3/2021 6:57 pm : link
Tate!
Is it a pre or post June 1 cut?
See ya  
Saquads26 : 3/3/2021 6:58 pm : link
!
Awful signing..  
Sean : 3/3/2021 6:58 pm : link
Right from the start with a 4 game PED suspension.
I saw that it saves $6.1 million on the cap  
Larry in Pencilvania : 3/3/2021 6:59 pm : link
Can anyone confirm? If so that's great
And the purge begins!  
Simms11 : 3/3/2021 6:59 pm : link
.
...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 3/3/2021 7:00 pm : link
Expected.
Another  
AcidTest : 3/3/2021 7:00 pm : link
great Gettleman signing.

Stewart.
Omameh.
Ogletree.
Solder.
Tate.
Toilolo.
Purge another 20 million please  
Payasdaddy : 3/3/2021 7:00 pm : link
Eom
Hallelujah  
JoeyBigBlue : 3/3/2021 7:00 pm : link
Finally. Good riddance.
RE: I saw that it saves $6.1 million on the cap  
UGADawgs7 : 3/3/2021 7:00 pm : link
In comment 15166144 Larry in Pencilvania said:
Quote:
Can anyone confirm? If so that's great

Link - ( New Window )
Says Post June 1 would have saved $2mil more  
Saquads26 : 3/3/2021 7:00 pm : link
Why didn't they just wait?
Good  
Lines of Scrimmage : 3/3/2021 7:01 pm : link
I am not big on a WR round 1 but.......

Tate gone and I think this will be Sheppard's last season as well.
Who knew such a bad signing  
Mike from Ohio : 3/3/2021 7:01 pm : link
could end up being such a bad signing?
RE: Says Post June 1 would have saved $2mil more  
JoeyBigBlue : 3/3/2021 7:04 pm : link
In comment 15166152 Saquads26 said:
Quote:
Why didn't they just wait?


Just rip the band aid off. Cant have him affect the 2022 cap.
RE: RE: Says Post June 1 would have saved $2mil more  
AcidTest : 3/3/2021 7:05 pm : link
In comment 15166157 JoeyBigBlue said:
Quote:
In comment 15166152 Saquads26 said:


Quote:


Why didn't they just wait?



Just rip the band aid off. Cant have him affect the 2022 cap.


^This.
RE: RE: RE: Says Post June 1 would have saved $2mil more  
robbieballs2003 : 3/3/2021 7:07 pm : link
In comment 15166160 AcidTest said:
Quote:
In comment 15166157 JoeyBigBlue said:


Quote:


In comment 15166152 Saquads26 said:


Quote:


Why didn't they just wait?



Just rip the band aid off. Cant have him affect the 2022 cap.



^This.


If they plan on cutting Solder then he may save more than $2 mil as a June 1st cut. Also, does that distinction need to be made at the time of the cut or can they wait the decide that?
Donut shops  
Straw Hat : 3/3/2021 7:07 pm : link
Better out extra locks on the doors and windows! Tate is getting lit tonight!
Not a surprise  
jeff57 : 3/3/2021 7:10 pm : link
.
Good riddance  
Danny Kanell : 3/3/2021 7:10 pm : link
One of my least favorite giants of all time
RE: Says Post June 1 would have saved $2mil more  
BigBlueShock : 3/3/2021 7:10 pm : link
In comment 15166152 Saquads26 said:
Quote:
Why didn't they just wait?

It can be one of two things. Post June cut would kick the can down the road and it’s possible they’d rather not have Tates contract effecting next years cap. Post June spreads the cap hit out over two seasons. That may not be ideal to them.

The other thing is that I think two players can be designated post June cuts, regardless of when they are released. So it’s possible they still go that route. No need to wait until June
So, Austin Mack  
CTGiants : 3/3/2021 7:14 pm : link
May be asked to do more than just block? Hope so...
RE: Says Post June 1 would have saved $2mil more  
Simms11 : 3/3/2021 7:14 pm : link
In comment 15166152 Saquads26 said:
Quote:
Why didn't they just wait?


They need to clear cap space now to sign Free Agents, to include LWill.
RE: Good riddance  
Sean : 3/3/2021 7:15 pm : link
In comment 15166172 Danny Kanell said:
Quote:
One of my least favorite giants of all time


+1
Never liked the signing in the first place  
Anakim : 3/3/2021 7:16 pm : link
But I liked that he grew up a Giants fan.


Later, Golden
RE: Awful signing..  
Matt M. : 3/3/2021 7:16 pm : link
In comment 15166143 Sean said:
Quote:
Right from the start with a 4 game PED suspension.
I didn't mind the signing initially. As soon as that suspension came, he completely lost me. And, his excuse was not only hard to believe, but it is also hard to believe the Giants didn't know.
SO!  
Kev in Cali : 3/3/2021 7:16 pm : link
Which FA do we go after? Galladay or Robinson?
RE: Says Post June 1 would have saved $2mil more  
Anakim : 3/3/2021 7:17 pm : link
In comment 15166152 Saquads26 said:
Quote:
Why didn't they just wait?


I guess they could designate him as a Post-June 1st cut
RE: SO!  
JoeyBigBlue : 3/3/2021 7:18 pm : link
In comment 15166191 Kev in Cali said:
Quote:
Which FA do we go after? Galladay or Robinson?


None, you draft a guy.
RE: RE: Says Post June 1 would have saved $2mil more  
Saquads26 : 3/3/2021 7:19 pm : link
In comment 15166157 JoeyBigBlue said:
Quote:
In comment 15166152 Saquads26 said:


Quote:


Why didn't they just wait?



Just rip the band aid off. Cant have him affect the 2022 cap.


I guess that makes sense, need more money this year. A lot more
...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 3/3/2021 7:19 pm : link
Never like seeing ANYONE lose their job, but Tate was so unlikable. And this is coming from a Notre Dame fan!
..  
Sean : 3/3/2021 7:19 pm : link
Quote:
Dan Duggan
@DDuggan21
Tate was a no-brainer. Terrible signing in every way. Frees up $6.1M in cap savings (with $4.7M in dead money). Additional benefit: Frees up Sterling Shepard to get back to primarily playing in the slot
Well a potential #1 WR  
Matt M. : 3/3/2021 7:21 pm : link
should be available at our slot.
RE: ..  
Anakim : 3/3/2021 7:22 pm : link
In comment 15166200 Sean said:
Quote:


Quote:


Dan Duggan
@DDuggan21
Tate was a no-brainer. Terrible signing in every way. Frees up $6.1M in cap savings (with $4.7M in dead money). Additional benefit: Frees up Sterling Shepard to get back to primarily playing in the slot




Very important, IMO. I know Shep wants to play on the outside, but I'm sorry, he sucked. Let him be in the slot and use his route-running skills there. Keep Slayton on the outside and draft/sign a #1 WR for the outside, preferably a big-bodied one.
Could not be defended!  
trueblueinpw : 3/3/2021 7:23 pm : link
I mean the signing, not the player. Another Getty whiff.
RE: RE: ..  
mfsd : 3/3/2021 7:24 pm : link
In comment 15166207 Anakim said:
Quote:
In comment 15166200 Sean said:


Quote:




Quote:


Dan Duggan
@DDuggan21
Tate was a no-brainer. Terrible signing in every way. Frees up $6.1M in cap savings (with $4.7M in dead money). Additional benefit: Frees up Sterling Shepard to get back to primarily playing in the slot






Very important, IMO. I know Shep wants to play on the outside, but I'm sorry, he sucked. Let him be in the slot and use his route-running skills there. Keep Slayton on the outside and draft/sign a #1 WR for the outside, preferably a big-bodied one.


Bingo.
I could be wrong, but they could've cut Golden Tate last offseason  
Anakim : 3/3/2021 7:25 pm : link
And not incur any dead cap due to his suspension.
RE: ..  
Saquads26 : 3/3/2021 7:25 pm : link
In comment 15166200 Sean said:
Quote:


Quote:


Dan Duggan
@DDuggan21
Tate was a no-brainer. Terrible signing in every way. Frees up $6.1M in cap savings (with $4.7M in dead money). Additional benefit: Frees up Sterling Shepard to get back to primarily playing in the slot



List of Duggans 12 potential cuts to save $40M+
https://twitter.com/dduggan21/status/1367268822122713090?s=21 - ( New Window )
About damn time  
MtDizzle : 3/3/2021 7:28 pm : link
Don’t let the door hit you in the ass on the way out!
Over paid, already had slot WR, and PEDs Suspension  
Bavaro_the_Mafioso : 3/3/2021 7:28 pm : link
Thanks Dave!
RE: I could be wrong, but they could've cut Golden Tate last offseason  
Ten Ton Hammer : 3/3/2021 7:29 pm : link
In comment 15166210 Anakim said:
Quote:
And not incur any dead cap due to his suspension.


That only affected guaranteed money in his deal, I believe.
Confusion  
UGADawgs7 : 3/3/2021 7:29 pm : link
So they cut him today, but why is there any dead cap hit for the following season? I thought that was only if it’s a post June 1 cut?
Link - ( New Window )
Cody Core  
JoeyBigBlue : 3/3/2021 7:30 pm : link
And 2.2 million savings with 0 dead cap is next.
...  
christian : 3/3/2021 7:30 pm : link
Deeply bad signing from the start. Brain dead PED suspension, on-field complaining, and wildly overpaid.
RE: RE: I could be wrong, but they could've cut Golden Tate last offseason  
Anakim : 3/3/2021 7:31 pm : link
In comment 15166217 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 15166210 Anakim said:


Quote:


And not incur any dead cap due to his suspension.



That only affected guaranteed money in his deal, I believe.


Ah, that might've been it
..  
Sean : 3/3/2021 7:32 pm : link
Quote:
Jordan Raanan
@JordanRaanan
The 2019 free-agent class is now officially wiped out.

Golden Tate
Antoine Bethea
Markus Golden
Olsen Pierre
Mike Remmers
...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 3/3/2021 7:33 pm : link
That '19 FA crop...not, uh, good.
RE: ..  
christian : 3/3/2021 7:34 pm : link
In comment 15166226 Sean said:
Quote:


Quote:


Jordan Raanan
@JordanRaanan
The 2019 free-agent class is now officially wiped out.

Golden Tate
Antoine Bethea
Markus Golden
Olsen Pierre
Mike Remmers



We're getting pretty close to the entire 2018 and 2019 classes getting wiped.

Under appreciated problem -- a GM who cut has teeth as a pro player personnel guy swinging and missing at 2 years worth of veteran acquisitions.
Gettleman  
D_Giants : 3/3/2021 7:35 pm : link
Should also cut Mr, Butterfingers, E Engram. This receiving corps is the dregs of the league, and they don’ have enough #1 picks to fix it.
it was a bad signing at the time  
Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy : 3/3/2021 7:39 pm : link
and it turned out to be worse than expected. It was a desperate attempt to replace Odell that failed badly.

Good luck to him but it was a needed move.
Never understood his signing ...  
Manny in CA : 3/3/2021 7:39 pm : link

They already had a good slot (Shep). He did make some plays I appreciate that.
RE: ...  
D_Giants : 3/3/2021 7:40 pm : link
In comment 15166228 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
That '19 FA crop...not, uh, good.


I am unsure what is exactly good about Gettleman’s annual merry-go-round.. Every year is a rebuild. This ‘rebuild’ is silly: in 4 years an entire draft class-if good—is gone. Gettleman has wasted so much money on terrible FAs that they are lucky to keep a drafted player after the cycle.
Hated this signing from the start  
Breeze_94 : 3/3/2021 7:41 pm : link
31 year old receiver in the decline. Clearly wasn’t the same player they year prior to signing. And he was redundant with Shep.

While he was here, suspension and injuries and lack of separation. He was a good player in his day but does not move the needle anymore.

Now go get a guy with some explosion who can separate
RE: it was a bad signing at the time  
D_Giants : 3/3/2021 7:41 pm : link
In comment 15166241 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:
Quote:
and it turned out to be worse than expected. It was a desperate attempt to replace Odell that failed badly.

Good luck to him but it was a needed move.


Totally agree. His antis irritated some, but he was better than Gettleman will ever find.
RE: Never understood his signing ...  
christian : 3/3/2021 7:43 pm : link
In comment 15166242 Manny in CA said:
Quote:

They already had a good slot (Shep). He did make some plays I appreciate that.


I'll never knock Tate for his toughness, and making tough catches. He made a handful of really impressive plays the last 2 years.
RE: Another  
Breeze_94 : 3/3/2021 7:44 pm : link
In comment 15166147 AcidTest said:
Quote:
great Gettleman signing.

Stewart.
Omameh.
Ogletree.
Solder.
Tate.
Toilolo.


Bradberry, Martinez, and Ryan have been good signings. Besides Golden, a whole lot of swing and misses from DG in years 1 and 2
RE: it was a bad signing at the time  
Poktown Pete : 3/3/2021 7:44 pm : link
In comment 15166241 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:
Quote:
It was a desperate attempt to replace Odell that failed badly.


B I N G O
I'm just here  
Semipro Lineman : 3/3/2021 7:52 pm : link
for the over-the-top comments
Not mad at it.  
Dave in Hoboken : 3/3/2021 7:56 pm : link
.
Tate clearly didn't work out & had issues from day 1 (suspension) but  
Eric on Li : 3/3/2021 8:01 pm : link
to say he failed because he didn't succeed replacing Beckham seems off to me.

a) to replace what OBJ was it would have cost a heck of a lot more than 20m guaranteed over 2 years. Those are unrealistic expectations relative to the investment. Like buying a Jeep to replace a Ferrari.

b) if you look at what OBJ actually did the last 2 years, Tate actually did end up matching that production at a lot less cost. Each played in exactly 23 games, each had the same 8 tds, just over 1k yards, and approx 90 catches. And as Christian said Tate even made a handful of legitimate highlights (including the last minute TD vs. the eventual SB champs this past season).

So end of the day it he ended up being terrible fit on the field (especially with Garrett) and an equally bad fit off the field but I don't think signing a reliable veteran WR was terrible logic. Someone had to catch passes the last few years. Just a poor choice and an even poorer utilization of his skills.
Holding onto Engram  
Chip : 3/3/2021 8:02 pm : link
may lead to a 3rd round comp.

Rotational players making 2 mil a year are not overpaid. Not saying you could not have done better.

Not using June 1 cap allows you to spend prior to June 1 during free agency and also allows no dead money next season. Pros and Cons
No surprise  
Mark from Jersey : 3/3/2021 8:03 pm : link
wasnt a great move to begin with. Appreciate his contributions but was a head scratcher from Day 1.
I won't hate on him  
Harvest Blend : 3/3/2021 8:14 pm : link
because he given a stupid contract. Lots of that here.

Moving on.
He actually caught a lot of 50/50 balls for Jones TDs  
Go Terps : 3/3/2021 8:31 pm : link
The contract was terrible but that's not his fault.

As for Engram, they've got to do a better job of using him. Too much speed in the open field not being utilized.
*TDs and big plays  
Go Terps : 3/3/2021 8:35 pm : link
.
RE: He actually caught a lot of 50/50 balls for Jones TDs  
Kev in Cali : 3/3/2021 8:41 pm : link
In comment 15166283 Go Terps said:
Quote:
The contract was terrible but that's not his fault.

As for Engram, they've got to do a better job of using him. Too much speed in the open field not being utilized.


I thought the same thing about EE. Then I re-watched a few games and they moved him around a decent bit. Not sure if it's the scheme or what, but it seemed to be dependent on the coverage and who was covering him.

Most teams knew when to cover him and they did that fairly well.
Bad signing  
GManinDC : 3/3/2021 8:43 pm : link
Period. It can't be equated to anything. 2018 and 2019 combined was bad..
Tate didn't work out...  
bw in dc : 3/3/2021 8:48 pm : link
but let's not act like he had a good QB to play with.
imagine if he ad OBJ  
GManinDC : 3/3/2021 9:01 pm : link
to throw to while evading the pass rush and buying time.
2019 fa wr group was pretty thin  
djm : 3/3/2021 9:02 pm : link
that had everything to do with why they signed tate. Tate was the highest rated fa wr on this and most other lists...

Need a big outside legit threat. Draft one and sign one.
Link - ( New Window )
It is time for Tate to go, but I thought  
George from PA : 3/3/2021 9:07 pm : link
He had a decent 1st year....under Shummer system....he fit a notch with Slayton and Shepard.....but time to go....it went downhill quickly.....but

Everyone....makes it so black and white....

The Giants do not need a me-1st WR....hell, Judge preaches Team 1st...and hopefully, those are the players they get.
RE: 2019 fa wr group was pretty thin  
Jimmy Googs : 3/3/2021 9:09 pm : link
In comment 15166313 djm said:
Quote:
that had everything to do with why they signed tate. Tate was the highest rated fa wr on this and most other lists...

Need a big outside legit threat. Draft one and sign one. Link - ( New Window )


He was rated very high in a poor group but still didn’t make sense based on his age and type. And an awful contract to boot.

Poor job here all around by the front office...
He contributed as much as Cody Latimer  
rasbutant : 3/3/2021 9:43 pm : link
But cost 5 times as much.
RE: He contributed as much as Cody Latimer  
sb from NYT Forum : 3/3/2021 10:20 pm : link
In comment 15166342 rasbutant said:
Quote:
But cost 5 times as much.


...and Latimer was a waste of money as well!!!
RE: SO!  
OC2.0 : 3/3/2021 10:25 pm : link
In comment 15166191 Kev in Cali said:
Quote:
Which FA do we go after? Galladay or Robinson?

ARob is the more likely because Chi's in the Cap toilet & Det'll most likely tag Golladay. But, moot, imo.
...  
christian : 3/3/2021 10:34 pm : link
It wasn’t a great market for WRs that year. But that’s no excuse to pay Tate that type of money at his age.

A short term move for a vet like Randall Cobb or Danny Amendola could have stemmed the tied to this year, where the Giants will now be in the market again.
RE: I'm just here  
Johnny5 : 3/3/2021 10:49 pm : link
In comment 15166254 Semipro Lineman said:
Quote:
for the over-the-top comments

lol!
ha  
broadbandz : 3/4/2021 12:30 am : link
reading this thread you would think Getty signing Tate to a middle-of-the-road contract then cutting is why the giants have sucked for 10 yrs.
there isn't a better way of using Engram  
BigBlueCane : 3/4/2021 4:28 am : link
w/o him improving at actually catching. He has the habit of dropping balls that hit him in the hands.
Desperation signing to replace  
MtDizzle : 3/4/2021 6:47 am : link
OBJ. Save stuff like this for us madden gamers grandpa Dave.
RE: ha  
Giantology : 3/4/2021 6:53 am : link
In comment 15166422 broadbandz said:
Quote:
reading this thread you would think Getty signing Tate to a middle-of-the-road contract then cutting is why the giants have sucked for 10 yrs.


It didn't really help, did it?
RE: Says Post June 1 would have saved $2mil more  
giants#1 : 3/4/2021 7:17 am : link
In comment 15166152 Saquads26 said:
Quote:
Why didn't they just wait?


It doesn't save more. It spreads the dead cap hit out over 2 years (2021 and 2022) so it would've given them an additional $2M in 2021 cap space.

It's also possible to designate someone a June 1 cap hit and still cut them now (no idea if that happened here).
RE: ..  
giants#1 : 3/4/2021 7:22 am : link
In comment 15166200 Sean said:
Quote:


Quote:


Dan Duggan
@DDuggan21
Tate was a no-brainer. Terrible signing in every way. Frees up $6.1M in cap savings (with $4.7M in dead money). Additional benefit: Frees up Sterling Shepard to get back to primarily playing in the slot



Shitty, lazy take from Duggan. Tate was inactive 4 games last year and only topped 60% of the offensive snaps once after the week 4 loss to the Rams, including playing <50% of the snaps in 3 of the final 9 games he played with the Giants.

Even if every snap Tate played was in the slot, there were still plenty of opportunities for Sheppard.
RE: ..  
giants#1 : 3/4/2021 7:41 am : link
In comment 15166226 Sean said:
Quote:


Quote:


Jordan Raanan
@JordanRaanan
The 2019 free-agent class is now officially wiped out.

Golden Tate
Antoine Bethea
Markus Golden
Olsen Pierre
Mike Remmers



Not defending DG here, but this is why the Giants beats suck. What misleading garbage.

Tate - terrible deal
Bethea - bad deal for washed up player, but was still clearly just viewed as a stopgap
Golden - outproduced his contract, turned it into a pick
Pierre - basically vet min deal
Remmers - was signed as a 1 year stopgap/swing tackle. Got what they paid for here

Tate was the only guy signed for 3+ years and the last 3 guys were all 1 year deals that you could argue worked out in the Giants favor.
RE: He actually caught a lot of 50/50 balls for Jones TDs  
giants#1 : 3/4/2021 7:44 am : link
In comment 15166283 Go Terps said:
Quote:
The contract was terrible but that's not his fault.

As for Engram, they've got to do a better job of using him. Too much speed in the open field not being utilized.


I think Engram's arguably the one guy on the offense last year that Garrett didn't misuse. It was Engram's inability to produce that was the problem.
RE: RE: Awful signing..  
Victor in CT : 3/4/2021 7:45 am : link
In comment 15166190 Matt M. said:
Quote:
In comment 15166143 Sean said:


Quote:


Right from the start with a 4 game PED suspension.

I didn't mind the signing initially. As soon as that suspension came, he completely lost me. And, his excuse was not only hard to believe, but it is also hard to believe the Giants didn't know.


Agreed. I thought it would be good to have what seemed lie a reliable, professional receiver. Oh well.
Another whiff by the league’s worst GM  
The_Boss : 3/4/2021 7:55 am : link
It was apparent to anyone with a brain that Tate was cooked prior to him getting signed here.
RE: RE: ..  
Jimmy Googs : 3/4/2021 8:04 am : link
In comment 15166480 giants#1 said:
Quote:
In comment 15166226 Sean said:


Quote:




Quote:


Jordan Raanan
@JordanRaanan
The 2019 free-agent class is now officially wiped out.

Golden Tate
Antoine Bethea
Markus Golden
Olsen Pierre
Mike Remmers





Not defending DG here, but this is why the Giants beats suck. What misleading garbage.

Tate - terrible deal
Bethea - bad deal for washed up player, but was still clearly just viewed as a stopgap
Golden - outproduced his contract, turned it into a pick
Pierre - basically vet min deal
Remmers - was signed as a 1 year stopgap/swing tackle. Got what they paid for here

Tate was the only guy signed for 3+ years and the last 3 guys were all 1 year deals that you could argue worked out in the Giants favor.


Apologies...what are you suggesting they are misleading readers with?
They've to stop  
JonC : 3/4/2021 8:11 am : link
with the desperate veteran overpays in UFA, ROI is hard to watch seriously.
RE: RE: RE: ..  
giants#1 : 3/4/2021 8:16 am : link
In comment 15166503 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
I

Apologies...what are you suggesting they are misleading readers with?


Clearly trying to imply that we were aggressive in FA that year and all the deals were busts.
I just want everyone to remember Golden Tate  
JoeyBigBlue : 3/4/2021 8:30 am : link
When you see all those Kick the Tires thread on washed up veterans.


Sign JJ Watt
Sign Tyrell Williams
Sign Kyle Rudolph
RE: They've to stop  
The_Boss : 3/4/2021 8:33 am : link
In comment 15166516 JonC said:
Quote:
with the desperate veteran overpays in UFA, ROI is hard to watch seriously.


This just reinforces my skepticism on Kevin Abrams. He’s the cap guy handing out these bloated deals in conjunction with Dave. He’s the guy many here think is next in line at GM, maybe as early as 2022. Why??
Well, the goal is to build a winning roster. And while you may not  
Jimmy Googs : 3/4/2021 8:38 am : link
like it, those names represent the front office's view as to multiple starters they decided to sign to help make that happen. If not busts, do you consider those signings to be successful additions as to how this rebuilding team should be investing at WR, Safety, ER and Right Tackle?

It's two seasons later and most of those very same positions still don't have a credible solution. And now they are on the eve of another free agency/draft period to see if they can address them yet again.

So let me ask again...what is misleading?
RE: Well, the goal is to build a winning roster. And while you may not  
giants#1 : 3/4/2021 8:51 am : link
In comment 15166545 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
like it, those names represent the front office's view as to multiple starters they decided to sign to help make that happen. If not busts, do you consider those signings to be successful additions as to how this rebuilding team should be investing at WR, Safety, ER and Right Tackle?

It's two seasons later and most of those very same positions still don't have a credible solution. And now they are on the eve of another free agency/draft period to see if they can address them yet again.

So let me ask again...what is misleading?


Pierre was not a starter.
Golden was 100% a successful addition. Outproduced his initial contract and then turned his deal this year into a pick.

Remmers/Bethea were stopgaps, not part of any long term plan or vision. Bethea sucked, but the purpose of the deal was to buy time for them to find a long term solution at safety, which they did in McKinney (hopefully, looked promising).

RE: RE: Well, the goal is to build a winning roster. And while you may not  
Jimmy Googs : 3/4/2021 9:07 am : link
In comment 15166561 giants#1 said:
Quote:
In comment 15166545 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


like it, those names represent the front office's view as to multiple starters they decided to sign to help make that happen. If not busts, do you consider those signings to be successful additions as to how this rebuilding team should be investing at WR, Safety, ER and Right Tackle?

It's two seasons later and most of those very same positions still don't have a credible solution. And now they are on the eve of another free agency/draft period to see if they can address them yet again.

So let me ask again...what is misleading?



Pierre was not a starter.
Golden was 100% a successful addition. Outproduced his initial contract and then turned his deal this year into a pick.

Remmers/Bethea were stopgaps, not part of any long term plan or vision. Bethea sucked, but the purpose of the deal was to buy time for them to find a long term solution at safety, which they did in McKinney (hopefully, looked promising).


Now who is being misleading...

Tate, Bethea, Golden and Remmers all represented starters for the team. That is 4 of 22 positional guys, not unsubstantial.

And they all played bad enough that they were determined not to be needed any further, on a 4-6 win team mind you.

And maybe, the only the position that they have found a solution for two years later is McKinney at Safety.

This is a poster-child example of how not to build a roster and is not misleading whatsoever, unless you think the strategy is to build a poor roster. Is it?
RE: ...  
djm : 3/4/2021 9:22 am : link
In comment 15166374 christian said:
Quote:
It wasn’t a great market for WRs that year. But that’s no excuse to pay Tate that type of money at his age.

A short term move for a vet like Randall Cobb or Danny Amendola could have stemmed the tied to this year, where the Giants will now be in the market again.


yea that's fair. It's also fair to think that they explored those options and those guys didn't want to come here.

I know that's not going to fly with the DG is an idiot how could he over spend crowd, but we don't know who was or wasn't available to sign here. The assumption from fans that drives me a little batty is that there were better and cheaper options just waiting outside mara tech saying "hi we will sign for cheaper"--not that simple.

Carry on.
in retrospect  
djm : 3/4/2021 9:27 am : link
the only other clear cut move that likely is an improvement over signing Tate was no FA move at all. Assuming no other WRs were coming here, Giants probably should have just drafted a dude in any round, who cares, and try and develop him. Couldn't have been worse than employing Tate. With that said, I am sure that would have been met with derision from fans to coaches to the QB. "We're gonna replace Beckham with....joe blow from idaho in round 4"--but ok, it wouldn't have been worse.

I don't like to speculate or base my argument on the notion that another better and cheaper FA option was available. Why? Because we likely would have signed him. Again, I know that won't jive with the popular belief here. That's just how I look at things.

GMs need to be good at telling the future. DG was wrong about Tate. Moving on...
Good riddance  
mikeinbloomfield : 3/4/2021 9:28 am : link
"I, uh, my wife is trying to get pregnant, so, uh, that's why I failed my steroid test. Yeah that's it. Please no further questions."

But its not exactly addition by subtraction. The WRs were already a problem on this team and this doesn't help. They're in line to get decent WR in the draft, but there are a lot of holes on this team. If only we knew who was responsible for this roster.
RE: RE: RE: Well, the goal is to build a winning roster. And while you may not  
giants#1 : 3/4/2021 9:28 am : link
In comment 15166574 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 15166561 giants#1 said:


Quote:


In comment 15166545 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


like it, those names represent the front office's view as to multiple starters they decided to sign to help make that happen. If not busts, do you consider those signings to be successful additions as to how this rebuilding team should be investing at WR, Safety, ER and Right Tackle?

It's two seasons later and most of those very same positions still don't have a credible solution. And now they are on the eve of another free agency/draft period to see if they can address them yet again.

So let me ask again...what is misleading?



Pierre was not a starter.
Golden was 100% a successful addition. Outproduced his initial contract and then turned his deal this year into a pick.

Remmers/Bethea were stopgaps, not part of any long term plan or vision. Bethea sucked, but the purpose of the deal was to buy time for them to find a long term solution at safety, which they did in McKinney (hopefully, looked promising).




Now who is being misleading...

Tate, Bethea, Golden and Remmers all represented starters for the team. That is 4 of 22 positional guys, not unsubstantial.

And they all played bad enough that they were determined not to be needed any further, on a 4-6 win team mind you.

And maybe, the only the position that they have found a solution for two years later is McKinney at Safety.

This is a poster-child example of how not to build a roster and is not misleading whatsoever, unless you think the strategy is to build a poor roster. Is it?


Golden played poorly? WTF are you talking about? He far outplayed his contract.

Never said Remmers played well, I said he played how you'd expect him to play based on his deal (i.e. low end starter, ideally a swing OT).

Tate was a terrible signing, I said that several times.

Bethea was a poor signing because he was cooked, but he was clearly not viewed as anything more than a stopgap.

They potentially have a RT in Peart, unless you already forgot about him or wrote him off? And Golden was replaced by Fackrell last year and the new CS didn't view his style as a fit for their D.

the  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 3/4/2021 9:33 am : link
"we had to overpay for ordinary at best talent because there was no one else available" argument has never sat well for me.

JonC has using the proper language, ROI.

The Giants have been paying huge $$$ and the team has remained a basement dweller.

"We had to sign Solder because we had no other choice!"

Sure we did. Instead of making Solder the highest paid OL in the league and tie up the cap at the present time and in the future, the team could have bitten the bullet and gotten its financial house in order while still sucking.

In the end, what difference did signing Solder, Tate, etc. really make? Maybe one win, possibly two? So what? And worse, they were only temporary "fixes" that never really solved the issue.
Eric  
JonC : 3/4/2021 9:38 am : link
Exactly. If I'm the GM, sometimes the best move is no move. Make the decision to stay lean, get your cap in order, focus on the draft and prospect development, and improving my pro personnel scouting and grading so we're prepared to strike when sound opportunities present themselves.

Under DG, he's spending a ton of money to plug holes poorly. It's no coincidence it's happening every offseason. It's also no coincidence that holes from 2018 REMAIN holes.

Until these processes and decision making are fixed, the Giants will struggle to put results on the football field.
Ok, the rational or excuses you keep providing is not resonating  
Jimmy Googs : 3/4/2021 9:39 am : link
to a better answer.

These were free agent additions that were not beneficial to the team. And however you care to label them, for the most part a solution still does not exist at those positions two years later.

Unless you care to rethink this or put something compelling in the next post, I think we are done here.

The beats did not report anything misleading.
RE: the  
JoeyBigBlue : 3/4/2021 9:43 am : link
In comment 15166590 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
"we had to overpay for ordinary at best talent because there was no one else available" argument has never sat well for me.

JonC has using the proper language, ROI.

The Giants have been paying huge $$$ and the team has remained a basement dweller.

"We had to sign Solder because we had no other choice!"



This is why I don’t want to overspend this offseason on high profile veterans. Sign one of Williams or Tomlinson and some cheap 1 year stop gap type talent. Let’s build from the ground up in the draft. We need to stop relying on the Free Agent market for quick fixes.

Sure we did. Instead of making Solder the highest paid OL in the league and tie up the cap at the present time and in the future, the team could have bitten the bullet and gotten its financial house in order while still sucking.

In the end, what difference did signing Solder, Tate, etc. really make? Maybe one win, possibly two? So what? And worse, they were only temporary "fixes" that never really solved the issue.
RE: Ok, the rational or excuses you keep providing is not resonating  
giants#1 : 3/4/2021 9:44 am : link
In comment 15166600 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
to a better answer.

These were free agent additions that were not beneficial to the team. And however you care to label them, for the most part a solution still does not exist at those positions two years later.

Unless you care to rethink this or put something compelling in the next post, I think we are done here.

The beats did not report anything misleading.


Yea, I'm definitely done since you've once again affirmed that you're dumber than a doorknob.
RE: RE: ...  
Jimmy Googs : 3/4/2021 9:45 am : link
In comment 15166580 djm said:
Quote:
In comment 15166374 christian said:


Quote:


It wasn’t a great market for WRs that year. But that’s no excuse to pay Tate that type of money at his age.

A short term move for a vet like Randall Cobb or Danny Amendola could have stemmed the tied to this year, where the Giants will now be in the market again.



yea that's fair. It's also fair to think that they explored those options and those guys didn't want to come here.

I know that's not going to fly with the DG is an idiot how could he over spend crowd, but we don't know who was or wasn't available to sign here. The assumption from fans that drives me a little batty is that there were better and cheaper options just waiting outside mara tech saying "hi we will sign for cheaper"--not that simple.

Carry on.


So you would like to defend Gettleman using a strategy that "there weren't any good players out there or we can't afford it"?

You do realize some teams are actually winning out there, right?

RE: RE: Ok, the rational or excuses you keep providing is not resonating  
Jimmy Googs : 3/4/2021 9:48 am : link
In comment 15166604 giants#1 said:
Quote:
In comment 15166600 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


to a better answer.

These were free agent additions that were not beneficial to the team. And however you care to label them, for the most part a solution still does not exist at those positions two years later.

Unless you care to rethink this or put something compelling in the next post, I think we are done here.

The beats did not report anything misleading.



Yea, I'm definitely done since you've once again affirmed that you're dumber than a doorknob.


Super job holding your own here giants#1...

RE: the  
giants#1 : 3/4/2021 9:51 am : link
In comment 15166590 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:

JonC has using the proper language, ROI.

The Giants have been paying huge $$$ and the team has remained a basement dweller.

"We had to sign Solder because we had no other choice!"


That's precisely why I'm hoping they avoid all the top WRs. I think they're going to be significantly overpaid and unlike Bradberry/Martinez, I don't think any of the top trio will outperform their contract. If they go the FA WR route, hopefully its someone with upside that they can get on a 1 yr prove it deal due to the reduced cap this year and the player having questions (e.g C Davis - underperformance, JuJu - off-field stuff).

Outside of QB, WR/ER on rookie deals give you the biggest advantage in cap "savings".
RE: RE: RE: Ok, the rational or excuses you keep providing is not resonating  
giants#1 : 3/4/2021 9:52 am : link
In comment 15166608 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 15166604 giants#1 said:


Quote:


In comment 15166600 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


to a better answer.

These were free agent additions that were not beneficial to the team. And however you care to label them, for the most part a solution still does not exist at those positions two years later.

Unless you care to rethink this or put something compelling in the next post, I think we are done here.

The beats did not report anything misleading.



Yea, I'm definitely done since you've once again affirmed that you're dumber than a doorknob.



Super job holding your own here giants#1...


No problem dup...
RE: Eric  
Harvest Blend : 3/4/2021 9:52 am : link
In comment 15166598 JonC said:
Quote:
Exactly. If I'm the GM, sometimes the best move is no move. Make the decision to stay lean, get your cap in order, focus on the draft and prospect development, and improving my pro personnel scouting and grading so we're prepared to strike when sound opportunities present themselves.

Under DG, he's spending a ton of money to plug holes poorly. It's no coincidence it's happening every offseason. It's also no coincidence that holes from 2018 REMAIN holes.

Until these processes and decision making are fixed, the Giants will struggle to put results on the football field.


The Giants have been reactive and acting out of desperation for years now. DG certainly but Reese too.
I messed up my last post  
JoeyBigBlue : 3/4/2021 9:53 am : link
This is in response to Eric’s reply.

This is why I don’t want to overspend this offseason on high profile veterans. Sign one of Williams or Tomlinson and some cheap 1 year stop gap type talent. Let’s build from the ground up in the draft. We need to stop relying on the Free Agent market for quick fixes.
RE: RE: Eric  
JonC : 3/4/2021 9:54 am : link
In comment 15166615 Harvest Blend said:
Quote:
In comment 15166598 JonC said:


Quote:


Exactly. If I'm the GM, sometimes the best move is no move. Make the decision to stay lean, get your cap in order, focus on the draft and prospect development, and improving my pro personnel scouting and grading so we're prepared to strike when sound opportunities present themselves.

Under DG, he's spending a ton of money to plug holes poorly. It's no coincidence it's happening every offseason. It's also no coincidence that holes from 2018 REMAIN holes.

Until these processes and decision making are fixed, the Giants will struggle to put results on the football field.



The Giants have been reactive and acting out of desperation for years now. DG certainly but Reese too.


Absolutely, and it has resulted in one winning season and playoff birth where the team made a fool of itself.
Gettleman  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 3/4/2021 10:02 am : link
has a weird history here... his FA decisions last year were largely home runs. I bet you a lot of teams are kicking themselves over Bradberry and Martinez. And they really didn't overspend on anyone else last year. But before that, his FA decisions are VERY questionable.

Same thing with the draft. Some really good decisions and some real head-scratchers that hurt.

The real question here is: "Who was the dominate factor in FA decisions last year? Gettleman, Judge, someone else?"

I'm on record saying multiple times that I'm surprised Gettleman wasn't "retired" this offseason. Some have suggested his powers have been diminished. But I don't think any of us outside the organization know that for sure.
RE: Gettleman  
Sean : 3/4/2021 10:06 am : link
In comment 15166625 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
has a weird history here... his FA decisions last year were largely home runs. I bet you a lot of teams are kicking themselves over Bradberry and Martinez. And they really didn't overspend on anyone else last year. But before that, his FA decisions are VERY questionable.

Same thing with the draft. Some really good decisions and some real head-scratchers that hurt.

The real question here is: "Who was the dominate factor in FA decisions last year? Gettleman, Judge, someone else?"

I'm on record saying multiple times that I'm surprised Gettleman wasn't "retired" this offseason. Some have suggested his powers have been diminished. But I don't think any of us outside the organization know that for sure.


Raanan has said that the coaching staff influence played a much larger role in free agency last year. Finding players who could fit the scheme was a big emphasis. That worked well on defense. I do worry how aligned the offensive staff is though for it to have the same impact this year.
The Giants have been reacting to deficiencies  
Ten Ton Hammer : 3/4/2021 10:07 am : link
rather than proactively covering bases for what feels 15 years.
RE: RE: the  
Jimmy Googs : 3/4/2021 10:10 am : link
In comment 15166611 giants#1 said:
Quote:
In comment 15166590 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:



JonC has using the proper language, ROI.

The Giants have been paying huge $$$ and the team has remained a basement dweller.

"We had to sign Solder because we had no other choice!"




That's precisely why I'm hoping they avoid all the top WRs. I think they're going to be significantly overpaid and unlike Bradberry/Martinez, I don't think any of the top trio will outperform their contract. If they go the FA WR route, hopefully its someone with upside that they can get on a 1 yr prove it deal due to the reduced cap this year and the player having questions (e.g C Davis - underperformance, JuJu - off-field stuff).

Outside of QB, WR/ER on rookie deals give you the biggest advantage in cap "savings".


Well there is only an advantage if the player is actually a plus player on his rookie deal.

Otherwise you are just plugging holes in the starting roster with basically middling or worse, below avg players like you were trying to defend above.

And the drafting record with this front office has almost as many issues as its free agent record.

So who do you target in the draft at WR and ER...
RE: Gettleman  
Ned In Atlanta : 3/4/2021 10:12 am : link
In comment 15166625 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
has a weird history here... his FA decisions last year were largely home runs. I bet you a lot of teams are kicking themselves over Bradberry and Martinez. And they really didn't overspend on anyone else last year. But before that, his FA decisions are VERY questionable.

Same thing with the draft. Some really good decisions and some real head-scratchers that hurt.

The real question here is: "Who was the dominate factor in FA decisions last year? Gettleman, Judge, someone else?"

I'm on record saying multiple times that I'm surprised Gettleman wasn't "retired" this offseason. Some have suggested his powers have been diminished. But I don't think any of us outside the organization know that for sure.



The team is 15-33 during his tenure. They couldn’t even win arguably the worst division in the history of the NFL last year. 6-10 was “an improvement .” He spent the first year and a half trying to patch together a contender around washed up/shell shocked Eli when 85% of the people on this site who aren’t total Giants Shills knew was a disaster. Bringing him back makes no sense. But Mara is stuck in his ways.
RE: Gettleman  
giants#1 : 3/4/2021 10:24 am : link
In comment 15166625 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
has a weird history here... his FA decisions last year were largely home runs. I bet you a lot of teams are kicking themselves over Bradberry and Martinez. And they really didn't overspend on anyone else last year. But before that, his FA decisions are VERY questionable.

Same thing with the draft. Some really good decisions and some real head-scratchers that hurt.

The real question here is: "Who was the dominate factor in FA decisions last year? Gettleman, Judge, someone else?"

I'm on record saying multiple times that I'm surprised Gettleman wasn't "retired" this offseason. Some have suggested his powers have been diminished. But I don't think any of us outside the organization know that for sure.


I think his FA track record shows he relies on a lot of input from his coaching staff even before last year. This seems especially true for the 2nd/3rd tier FAs:

Remmers - played for Shurmur in MN
Golden/Mauro/Pierre/Bethea - all Cards
Stewart - obviously he was familiar with him from CAR

Last year:
Bradberry - drafted by DG
Martinez/Fackrell - played for Graham
Ryan - Judge

I don't know how he was in CAR, but I think he's shown a pretty collaborative approach with both Shurmur and Judge here, obviously with better results last year (still early).
RE: Eric  
AcidTest : 3/4/2021 10:27 am : link
In comment 15166598 JonC said:
Quote:
Exactly. If I'm the GM, sometimes the best move is no move. Make the decision to stay lean, get your cap in order, focus on the draft and prospect development, and improving my pro personnel scouting and grading so we're prepared to strike when sound opportunities present themselves.

Under DG, he's spending a ton of money to plug holes poorly. It's no coincidence it's happening every offseason. It's also no coincidence that holes from 2018 REMAIN holes.

Until these processes and decision making are fixed, the Giants will struggle to put results on the football field.


Agree with you and Eric. My sense is that until recently, many FA moves were done based on the erroneous belief that they could make another run with Eli. That made them emphasize short term fixes instead of tearing everything down and understanding that they needed to rebuild the entire team.
RE: Gettleman  
AcidTest : 3/4/2021 10:31 am : link
In comment 15166625 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
has a weird history here... his FA decisions last year were largely home runs. I bet you a lot of teams are kicking themselves over Bradberry and Martinez. And they really didn't overspend on anyone else last year. But before that, his FA decisions are VERY questionable.

Same thing with the draft. Some really good decisions and some real head-scratchers that hurt.

The real question here is: "Who was the dominate factor in FA decisions last year? Gettleman, Judge, someone else?"

I'm on record saying multiple times that I'm surprised Gettleman wasn't "retired" this offseason. Some have suggested his powers have been diminished. But I don't think any of us outside the organization know that for sure.


Last year was a lot better in terms of FA (the draft is still TBD), so maybe as you surmise, it was because of Judge's influence. I am also surprised that Gettleman didn't retire.
RE: RE: RE: ...  
djm : 3/4/2021 10:35 am : link
In comment 15166607 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 15166580 djm said:


Quote:


In comment 15166374 christian said:


Quote:


It wasn’t a great market for WRs that year. But that’s no excuse to pay Tate that type of money at his age.

A short term move for a vet like Randall Cobb or Danny Amendola could have stemmed the tied to this year, where the Giants will now be in the market again.



yea that's fair. It's also fair to think that they explored those options and those guys didn't want to come here.

I know that's not going to fly with the DG is an idiot how could he over spend crowd, but we don't know who was or wasn't available to sign here. The assumption from fans that drives me a little batty is that there were better and cheaper options just waiting outside mara tech saying "hi we will sign for cheaper"--not that simple.

Carry on.



So you would like to defend Gettleman using a strategy that "there weren't any good players out there or we can't afford it"?

You do realize some teams are actually winning out there, right?


I really didn't defend anything. I explained the rationale while also saying we'd have been better off not signing Tate and just drafting someone. Didn't happen. Tate was signed. At the expense of anyone else? Maybe maybe not. It is done.

Proactive measures like JonC alluded to? Sure I am all for it. I mean who wouldn't be for that. I tend to think the team has done a better job of stocking the young pipeline of talent here lately, which is as proactive as you can be, but success from that takes time to manifest. Losing the prize draft pick from 18 for all these games hasn't helped. Was expecting slightly better results in 2020, I had em at 7 wins but was cautiously hopeful for 9 and wouldn't have been surprised with 9.

2021 needs to be better. 20 needed to be better. I keep saying that. How many times can I show that I am more in the middle on DG? I can also not condemn or completely obliterate the GM while thinking we need to show improvement.

RE: Gettleman  
The_Boss : 3/4/2021 10:42 am : link
In comment 15166625 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
has a weird history here... his FA decisions last year were largely home runs. I bet you a lot of teams are kicking themselves over Bradberry and Martinez. And they really didn't overspend on anyone else last year. But before that, his FA decisions are VERY questionable.

Same thing with the draft. Some really good decisions and some real head-scratchers that hurt.

The real question here is: "Who was the dominate factor in FA decisions last year? Gettleman, Judge, someone else?"

I'm on record saying multiple times that I'm surprised Gettleman wasn't "retired" this offseason. Some have suggested his powers have been diminished. But I don't think any of us outside the organization know that for sure.


What are the “really good decisions from the draft”? He’s drafted high in every round and other than a RB 2nd overall in the 7-10 range league-wide, there are no elite players or any who you think are on track to be top 5 at their respective positions. Lawrence? Solid player taken in the middle of round 1. Slayton was a nice find in the 5th. The rest? A lot of wishing and hoping.
i've said it so many times now  
djm : 3/4/2021 10:43 am : link
so have others. GMs usually work at the behest of the HC or at least work in concert with the HC.

Tate was a desperate move I have no doubt. We just don't know the whole story and I find it awfully convenient to just use DG as the villain every time a FA move goes south. I don't have a horse in this race. I am not best buddies with DG. I don't care if he's fired tomorrow or here for another decade. I just want to win. I have seen GMs look legendary great for 4-5 years and then turn into a pumpkin the next 4-5 years. Too many to count. Doesn't mean I don't think the GM deserve to be killed or praises in some instances, but I think there are so many mitigating factors, both hidden or even visible, that factor in to a GM's tenure and success rating.

I hold HCs much more accountable for wins and losses, but there can be exceptions. It's just how I look at things in the NFL.
That's fine djm, agree with these basic sentiments.  
Jimmy Googs : 3/4/2021 10:48 am : link
Just your earlier post clearly was describing nothing other than a traditional "excuse" for Gettleman. And kind of weak one at that with some unknowns as to its basis.

Look forward to hearing DG and Judge kill it next week with their press conference!
RE: i've said it so many times now  
Jimmy Googs : 3/4/2021 10:52 am : link
In comment 15166671 djm said:
Quote:
so have others. GMs usually work at the behest of the HC or at least work in concert with the HC.

Tate was a desperate move I have no doubt. We just don't know the whole story and I find it awfully convenient to just use DG as the villain every time a FA move goes south.


That is the deal. And he gets all my credit for targeting Bradberry and Martinez too. A couple of the others I can go either way with as to credit, but clearly 2020 was a free agent success for once with this team.
RE: Gettleman  
bw in dc : 3/4/2021 10:58 am : link
In comment 15166625 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:


I'm on record saying multiple times that I'm surprised Gettleman wasn't "retired" this offseason. Some have suggested his powers have been diminished. But I don't think any of us outside the organization know that for sure.


Mara said Gettleman had overhauled the player evaluation system and he (Mara) really liked where they were as an organization in that process. So that tells you right there, IMV, that DG still has all of the powers vested in the GM position by Jints Central.

And in the last State of Union presser, Mara basically acted like getting rid of Gettleman wasn't really on his radar.

Mara is a stubborn man who is completely devoted to the "Giants Way" of doing business. Which means the GM still plays an enormous role in building a team.
I was completely  
Dnew15 : 3/4/2021 11:14 am : link
wrong in my assessment of the path forward for the Giants.

I thought for sure the end of this year would be the perfect time to put DG "out to pasture".

There needs to be a new set of eyes on the biggest two player personnel decisions coming up in the next two years - Saquon and DJ.

Of course, if the other prediction I had, that Abrams would take over, would the situation be any different?

Yet..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 3/4/2021 11:26 am : link
another instance of "The Giants Way" being used derisively.

That Giants Way has been part of 5 SB appearances and 4 wins. Why do I get the impression that, like in the early days of Daniel Snyder, that bw would rather we do things the "Redskins Way"??
RE: I was completely  
Go Terps : 3/4/2021 11:29 am : link
In comment 15166705 Dnew15 said:
Quote:
wrong in my assessment of the path forward for the Giants.

I thought for sure the end of this year would be the perfect time to put DG "out to pasture".

There needs to be a new set of eyes on the biggest two player personnel decisions coming up in the next two years - Saquon and DJ.

Of course, if the other prediction I had, that Abrams would take over, would the situation be any different?


This is an excellent (and disquieting) summary of the current situation.
Not to be a contrarian  
Ten Ton Hammer : 3/4/2021 11:36 am : link
but I've often felt like the "Giants Way" is it's own thing separate from the two eras of winning they've had in my lifetime.

The "giants way" led to the Commissioner having to intervene in the operation of the team and installing an independent GM who saved the franchise.

They won under Parcells. When he was gone, so was the winning. They won under Coughlin. When he was gone, so was the winning. You might argue that management failed Coughlin and Eli and unintentionally helped make their later years worse.

RE: Not to be a contrarian  
Go Terps : 3/4/2021 11:37 am : link
In comment 15166723 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
but I've often felt like the "Giants Way" is it's own thing separate from the two eras of winning they've had in my lifetime.

The "giants way" led to the Commissioner having to intervene in the operation of the team and installing an independent GM who saved the franchise.

They won under Parcells. When he was gone, so was the winning. They won under Coughlin. When he was gone, so was the winning. You might argue that management failed Coughlin and Eli and unintentionally helped make their later years worse.


+1
RE: Not to be a contrarian  
giants#1 : 3/4/2021 11:51 am : link
In comment 15166723 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
but I've often felt like the "Giants Way" is it's own thing separate from the two eras of winning they've had in my lifetime.

The "giants way" led to the Commissioner having to intervene in the operation of the team and installing an independent GM who saved the franchise.

They won under Parcells. When he was gone, so was the winning. They won under Coughlin. When he was gone, so was the winning. You might argue that management failed Coughlin and Eli and unintentionally helped make their later years worse.


How many teams have successfully transitioned from 1 SB winning coach to the next? I'm sure there's others, but the 2 that stood out are:

Steelers (Cowher/Tomlin)
Cowboys (Johnson/Switzer)

One could argue HCs are like QBs and get too long of a leash after a single SB win (or even appearance). Finding a good HC that can motivate the team, maximize players' abilities, and out scheme the opposition isn't easy. For example, Peterson and McCarthy.

And half of BBI couldn't wait to get rid of TC.
That was an easy call  
Carson53 : 3/4/2021 11:52 am : link
I would hope Solder is next before the 'opening' of season.
RE: RE: Not to be a contrarian  
Ten Ton Hammer : 3/4/2021 12:00 pm : link
In comment 15166737 giants#1 said:
Quote:
In comment 15166723 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


but I've often felt like the "Giants Way" is it's own thing separate from the two eras of winning they've had in my lifetime.

The "giants way" led to the Commissioner having to intervene in the operation of the team and installing an independent GM who saved the franchise.

They won under Parcells. When he was gone, so was the winning. They won under Coughlin. When he was gone, so was the winning. You might argue that management failed Coughlin and Eli and unintentionally helped make their later years worse.




How many teams have successfully transitioned from 1 SB winning coach to the next? I'm sure there's others, but the 2 that stood out are:

Steelers (Cowher/Tomlin)
Cowboys (Johnson/Switzer)

One could argue HCs are like QBs and get too long of a leash after a single SB win (or even appearance). Finding a good HC that can motivate the team, maximize players' abilities, and out scheme the opposition isn't easy. For example, Peterson and McCarthy.

And half of BBI couldn't wait to get rid of TC.


Not saying you're wrong, but when you look at the post-winning era head coaching hires, it's pretty bad. McAdoo and Shurmur were really bad hires, and the explanation for hiring those coaches, in hindsight, wasn't the greatest. Especially in Shurmur's case.

Post Parcells, it's bad too. Handley, Reeves, then Fassel.

Looking at the Fassell and Coughlin years from a bird's eye perspective, it's 19 consecutive years of singular moments of brilliance (2007, 2011, 2000) surrounded by real mediocrity or worse.
.  
GiantEgo : 3/4/2021 12:15 pm : link
The Mara's are the Giants they are not separate entities. If one really hates them that much isn't it time to retire your interest in the NY Football Giants?

I do distinctly remember Eric  
Leg of Theismann : 3/4/2021 12:25 pm : link
knocking the Solder signing they day it happened saying "making Nate Solder the highest paid OL in the league is not what winning teams do" or something along those lines. Definitely like 80% of BBI (including me) was happy to get Solder because we thought we NEEDED him with no one else being available)-- not afraid to say I was wrong. I wanted to "win now" and like many others (including Gettleman) didn't realize it just wasn't possible.
RE: Not to be a contrarian  
FatMan in Charlotte : 3/4/2021 1:11 pm : link
In comment 15166723 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
but I've often felt like the "Giants Way" is it's own thing separate from the two eras of winning they've had in my lifetime.

The "giants way" led to the Commissioner having to intervene in the operation of the team and installing an independent GM who saved the franchise.

They won under Parcells. When he was gone, so was the winning. They won under Coughlin. When he was gone, so was the winning. You might argue that management failed Coughlin and Eli and unintentionally helped make their later years worse.


Why is "the Giants Way" derogatory? Why is is separate? It is basically only invoked by one poster here. One who is more of a fan of Bill Parcells than he ever was of the Giants. One who once said the Giants could learn something by imitating the redskins.

To me, the Giants Way is a franchise who exemplifies being a flagship franchise of the league and one that has a rich history of winning and class.

When it is invoked differently, one has to wonder what the fuck people have learned from the team's history.
RE: Awful signing..  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/4/2021 1:14 pm : link
In comment 15166143 Sean said:
Quote:
Right from the start with a 4 game PED suspension.

Especially when he started trying to claim that he was taking a female fertility drug to help with his own virility.

Good riddance.
RE: Says Post June 1 would have saved $2mil more  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/4/2021 1:15 pm : link
In comment 15166152 Saquads26 said:
Quote:
Why didn't they just wait?

Because that rolls over to next year's cap, Denny. And you only get two 6/1 cuts per year. One of them is probably earmarked for Solder already.
RE: RE: RE: Says Post June 1 would have saved $2mil more  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/4/2021 1:16 pm : link
In comment 15166198 Saquads26 said:
Quote:
In comment 15166157 JoeyBigBlue said:


Quote:


In comment 15166152 Saquads26 said:


Quote:


Why didn't they just wait?



Just rip the band aid off. Cant have him affect the 2022 cap.



I guess that makes sense, need more money this year. A lot more

And need it sooner than June 1st.

Thanks for playing.
RE: Confusion  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/4/2021 1:20 pm : link
In comment 15166218 UGADawgs7 said:
Quote:
So they cut him today, but why is there any dead cap hit for the following season? I thought that was only if it’s a post June 1 cut? Link - ( New Window )

I think those tweets are just worded poorly. The 2022 numbers referenced there are implied future cap numbers that are now also cleared with the releases of Tate and Mayo. That's not carry-forward dead money, if I'm reading that correctly (and I can't think of any reason why there would be 2022 dead money from these cuts unless either/both were 6/1 cuts, but it doesn't appear that they were).
RE: RE: They've to stop  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/4/2021 1:21 pm : link
In comment 15166541 The_Boss said:
Quote:
In comment 15166516 JonC said:


Quote:


with the desperate veteran overpays in UFA, ROI is hard to watch seriously.



This just reinforces my skepticism on Kevin Abrams. He’s the cap guy handing out these bloated deals in conjunction with Dave. He’s the guy many here think is next in line at GM, maybe as early as 2022. Why??

It's possible that Abrams is just miscast as a cap guy.

Because he's sure as hell not especially advantageous as just a cap guy.
RE: ha  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/4/2021 1:24 pm : link
In comment 15166422 broadbandz said:
Quote:
reading this thread you would think Getty signing Tate to a middle-of-the-road contract then cutting is why the giants have sucked for 10 yrs.

It's actually precisely representative of exactly that.

If you would stop gargling long enough to pay attention, you might realize that.
RE: RE: Ok, the rational or excuses you keep providing is not resonating  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/4/2021 1:27 pm : link
In comment 15166604 giants#1 said:
Quote:
In comment 15166600 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


to a better answer.

These were free agent additions that were not beneficial to the team. And however you care to label them, for the most part a solution still does not exist at those positions two years later.

Unless you care to rethink this or put something compelling in the next post, I think we are done here.

The beats did not report anything misleading.



Yea, I'm definitely done since you've once again affirmed that you're dumber than a doorknob.

You just claimed that Tate outperformed his contract and then called someone else dumb?

Oof. Buy a book.
RE: RE: Not to be a contrarian  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/4/2021 1:32 pm : link
In comment 15166789 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
In comment 15166723 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


but I've often felt like the "Giants Way" is it's own thing separate from the two eras of winning they've had in my lifetime.

The "giants way" led to the Commissioner having to intervene in the operation of the team and installing an independent GM who saved the franchise.

They won under Parcells. When he was gone, so was the winning. They won under Coughlin. When he was gone, so was the winning. You might argue that management failed Coughlin and Eli and unintentionally helped make their later years worse.




Why is "the Giants Way" derogatory? Why is is separate? It is basically only invoked by one poster here. One who is more of a fan of Bill Parcells than he ever was of the Giants. One who once said the Giants could learn something by imitating the redskins.

To me, the Giants Way is a franchise who exemplifies being a flagship franchise of the league and one that has a rich history of winning and class.

When it is invoked differently, one has to wonder what the fuck people have learned from the team's history.

Oh, you're back! Any POV from an analytics standpoint on this roster move?
RE: RE: RE: Ok, the rational or excuses you keep providing is not resonating  
giants#1 : 3/4/2021 1:44 pm : link
In comment 15166811 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15166604 giants#1 said:


Quote:


In comment 15166600 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


to a better answer.

These were free agent additions that were not beneficial to the team. And however you care to label them, for the most part a solution still does not exist at those positions two years later.

Unless you care to rethink this or put something compelling in the next post, I think we are done here.

The beats did not report anything misleading.



Yea, I'm definitely done since you've once again affirmed that you're dumber than a doorknob.


You just claimed that Tate outperformed his contract and then called someone else dumb?

Oof. Buy a book.


No where on this thread (or any thread for that matter) did I claim Tate outperformed his contract. Try again.
RE: RE: Not to be a contrarian  
Ten Ton Hammer : 3/4/2021 1:48 pm : link
In comment 15166789 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:



Why is "the Giants Way" derogatory? Why is is separate? It is basically only invoked by one poster here. One who is more of a fan of Bill Parcells than he ever was of the Giants. One who once said the Giants could learn something by imitating the redskins.

To me, the Giants Way is a franchise who exemplifies being a flagship franchise of the league and one that has a rich history of winning and class.

When it is invoked differently, one has to wonder what the fuck people have learned from the team's history.


I'm not here to argue on the side of someone who thinks the Redskins are a model to be emulated, but I do think the "Giants Way" is just some nebulous phrase. To be fair, I feel the same way about the "patriot way". They're not real. The Patriots were irrelevant and valueless before Belichick and Brady. Bob Kraft doesn't know anything about building a winning football team any more than John Mara does. as we've seen, Mara has a hard time even picking a coach that can do the job competently.

We can say they have a rich history of class, and maybe that's so, but there are plenty of stunning blunders in recent years from the Josh Brown fiasco, to how they fired-but-didn't-fire Tom Coughlin, to the Eli Manning/Geno Smith debacle, and what is quickly becoming decade of deeply awful football. I'm not a season ticket holder, but I'm not sure people who were forced to make a choice between paying for PSLs or losing their seats feel about where the Giants rank in class vs the rest of the league either.

Ten Ton  
Go Terps : 3/4/2021 1:52 pm : link
John Mara has had to face three high level leadership issues since he took over ownership of the Giants:

1. Transition from Coughlin
2. Transition from Reese
3. Transition from Eli

He inherited all three of those key figures. His attempts to replace them have been utterly shambolic.
You can also argue that the new stadium was mishandled as well  
Go Terps : 3/4/2021 1:56 pm : link
.
I feel it bears reminding that JM also didn't hire the last coach  
Ten Ton Hammer : 3/4/2021 1:59 pm : link
to have any success here. Coughlin was one of Wellington's last great strokes. Even against the advice of Accorsi who probably wouldn't have hired him, and might have fired him before he he managed to make 2007 happen.

In shorter terms, the people in charge now who represent the "Giants Way" of doing things haven't had much success.

So I do get why someone might feel that way.
RE: Yet..  
bw in dc : 3/4/2021 2:04 pm : link
In comment 15166715 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
another instance of "The Giants Way" being used derisively.

That Giants Way has been part of 5 SB appearances and 4 wins. Why do I get the impression that, like in the early days of Daniel Snyder, that bw would rather we do things the "Redskins Way"??


Dave Gettleman is the perfect example of the "Giants Way". A hire based purely on his roots and history with the Giants, not the best man for the job. Which is what we needed instead of this crime of cronyism.

And because of that cronyism we continue to be spin into another dark decade similar to the '70s.

For someone so smart, I continue to be surprised you are too daft to see this...

RE: RE: RE: RE: Ok, the rational or excuses you keep providing is not resonating  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/4/2021 2:09 pm : link
In comment 15166821 giants#1 said:
Quote:
In comment 15166811 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 15166604 giants#1 said:


Quote:


In comment 15166600 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


to a better answer.

These were free agent additions that were not beneficial to the team. And however you care to label them, for the most part a solution still does not exist at those positions two years later.

Unless you care to rethink this or put something compelling in the next post, I think we are done here.

The beats did not report anything misleading.



Yea, I'm definitely done since you've once again affirmed that you're dumber than a doorknob.


You just claimed that Tate outperformed his contract and then called someone else dumb?

Oof. Buy a book.



No where on this thread (or any thread for that matter) did I claim Tate outperformed his contract. Try again.

Are you fucking serious? Did you forget whether you were logged in as this handle or broadbandz?

In comment 15166587 giants#1 said:
Quote:
Golden played poorly? WTF are you talking about? He far outplayed his contract.

Link - ( New Window )
Gettleman got fired from CAR  
The Dude : 3/4/2021 2:11 pm : link
a year and a half removed of them making the superbowl. He added players to that roster no doubt, but largely the previous' FO "roster".

Question for DG supporters.

If the giants don't call DG and offer him the GM job, would he be employed right now?

I'm not sure the answer is yes. I'd wager he would not be the GM of any franchise, but of course, theres no way of knowing. And yes i do think hiring him is an example of "the giants way". Someone in the family, who they know and is not "outside the box" thinking.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Ok, the rational or excuses you keep providing is not resonating  
giants#1 : 3/4/2021 2:22 pm : link
In comment 15166849 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15166821 giants#1 said:


Quote:


In comment 15166811 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 15166604 giants#1 said:


Quote:


In comment 15166600 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


to a better answer.

These were free agent additions that were not beneficial to the team. And however you care to label them, for the most part a solution still does not exist at those positions two years later.

Unless you care to rethink this or put something compelling in the next post, I think we are done here.

The beats did not report anything misleading.



Yea, I'm definitely done since you've once again affirmed that you're dumber than a doorknob.


You just claimed that Tate outperformed his contract and then called someone else dumb?

Oof. Buy a book.



No where on this thread (or any thread for that matter) did I claim Tate outperformed his contract. Try again.


Are you fucking serious? Did you forget whether you were logged in as this handle or broadbandz?

In comment 15166587 giants#1 said:


Quote:


Golden played poorly? WTF are you talking about? He far outplayed his contract.

Link - ( New Window )


I have no dups.

And 'Golden' is Markus Golden you dumb fuck.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Ok, the rational or excuses you keep providing is not resonating  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/4/2021 2:25 pm : link
In comment 15166868 giants#1 said:
Quote:
In comment 15166849 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 15166821 giants#1 said:


Quote:


In comment 15166811 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 15166604 giants#1 said:


Quote:


In comment 15166600 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


to a better answer.

These were free agent additions that were not beneficial to the team. And however you care to label them, for the most part a solution still does not exist at those positions two years later.

Unless you care to rethink this or put something compelling in the next post, I think we are done here.

The beats did not report anything misleading.



Yea, I'm definitely done since you've once again affirmed that you're dumber than a doorknob.


You just claimed that Tate outperformed his contract and then called someone else dumb?

Oof. Buy a book.



No where on this thread (or any thread for that matter) did I claim Tate outperformed his contract. Try again.


Are you fucking serious? Did you forget whether you were logged in as this handle or broadbandz?

In comment 15166587 giants#1 said:


Quote:


Golden played poorly? WTF are you talking about? He far outplayed his contract.

Link - ( New Window )



I have no dups.

And 'Golden' is Markus Golden you dumb fuck.

On a thread about Golden Tate, you might want to actually use some detail. But keep calling me a dumb fuck, that'll go well.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Ok, the rational or excuses you keep providing is not resonating  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/4/2021 2:27 pm : link
In comment 15166869 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15166868 giants#1 said:


Quote:


In comment 15166849 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 15166821 giants#1 said:


Quote:


In comment 15166811 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 15166604 giants#1 said:


Quote:


In comment 15166600 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


to a better answer.

These were free agent additions that were not beneficial to the team. And however you care to label them, for the most part a solution still does not exist at those positions two years later.

Unless you care to rethink this or put something compelling in the next post, I think we are done here.

The beats did not report anything misleading.



Yea, I'm definitely done since you've once again affirmed that you're dumber than a doorknob.


You just claimed that Tate outperformed his contract and then called someone else dumb?

Oof. Buy a book.



No where on this thread (or any thread for that matter) did I claim Tate outperformed his contract. Try again.


Are you fucking serious? Did you forget whether you were logged in as this handle or broadbandz?

In comment 15166587 giants#1 said:


Quote:


Golden played poorly? WTF are you talking about? He far outplayed his contract.

Link - ( New Window )



I have no dups.

And 'Golden' is Markus Golden you dumb fuck.


On a thread about Golden Tate, you might want to actually use some detail. But keep calling me a dumb fuck, that'll go well.

But I acknowledge that I misread your post because it also referenced Tate later on. My apologies.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Ok, the rational or excuses you keep providing is not resonating  
Jimmy Googs : 3/4/2021 2:29 pm : link
In comment 15166821 giants#1 said:
Quote:



No where on this thread (or any thread for that matter) did I claim Tate outperformed his contract. Try again.


No you didn't claim Golden Tate outperformed his deal. You suggested Markus Golden did. But no surprise your psycho-babble defense and excuses of Gettleman's awful 2019 free agent class with me earlier confused another poster.

Hell, I still don't why you stated Raanan/beats are misleading readers about the 2019 free agent signings in the below post. They were an oveall poor group that solved for nothing in terms of the team's rebuilding process and required solutions at four key starting positions.



Quote:
Quote:


Jordan Raanan
@JordanRaanan
The 2019 free-agent class is now officially wiped out.

Golden Tate
Antoine Bethea
Markus Golden
Olsen Pierre
Mike Remmers



Not defending DG here, but this is why the Giants beats suck. What misleading garbage.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Ok, the rational or excuses you keep providing is not resonating  
giants#1 : 3/4/2021 2:32 pm : link
In comment 15166869 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:



On a thread about Golden Tate, you might want to actually use some detail. But keep calling me a dumb fuck, that'll go well.


Maybe you shouldn't be so quick to attack posters. Especially considering the post you referenced was clearly in response to another poster who literally wrote "Tate, Bethea, Golden"...

RE: RE: Not to be a contrarian  
Leg of Theismann : 3/4/2021 2:34 pm : link
In comment 15166789 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
In comment 15166723 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


but I've often felt like the "Giants Way" is it's own thing separate from the two eras of winning they've had in my lifetime.

The "giants way" led to the Commissioner having to intervene in the operation of the team and installing an independent GM who saved the franchise.

They won under Parcells. When he was gone, so was the winning. They won under Coughlin. When he was gone, so was the winning. You might argue that management failed Coughlin and Eli and unintentionally helped make their later years worse.




Why is "the Giants Way" derogatory? Why is is separate? It is basically only invoked by one poster here. One who is more of a fan of Bill Parcells than he ever was of the Giants. One who once said the Giants could learn something by imitating the redskins.

To me, the Giants Way is a franchise who exemplifies being a flagship franchise of the league and one that has a rich history of winning and class.

When it is invoked differently, one has to wonder what the fuck people have learned from the team's history.


IMO "the Giant Way" has been mis-characterized (by Mara and Gettleman themselves) in that they seemed to focus on this idea that the Giants have always won PURELY because of class and "high character guys." It seemed to lead Mara and DG to believe that you could just cut/trade any player who had the slightest attitude problem, sign a bunch of boy scouts, then turn around and win a Super Bowl.

But IMO focusing on acquiring "high character guys" has not been the MAIN REASON the Giants have won SBs in the past (NOT saying it's not important to keep "class" and character in mind in acquiring players and coaches), but the real "Giant Way" to me and the reason we've won SBs is by being flat-out tougher, more intimidating, more physical than the other team. Smashmouth football: hard hitting defenders, rushing the passer, running the football well. To me: the best Giants' teams have been the ones that were flat out toughest, not even necessarily the "classiest". It wasn't so much about being a boy scout off the field (see: LT, the true face of the HISTORY of this franchise), but just by being mentally tougher and more physical than the other team. THAT I think is sort of where I've disagreed with Mara's and DG's understanding of "the Giant Way" i.e. the things this franchise has done best in the past to win rings.

IMO: Belichick brought "the Giant Way" (i.e. the Parcells way") to the Patriots. Those great Patriots' teams get a lot of credit for being "hard-working" and cerebral (and BB is indeed a genius), but BB's teams didn't get enough credit for the thing that often made them great in both their player acquisition and game scheme: the focus on being bigger than you, stronger than you, more physical than you, and that's often why teams would fold to the Patriots. The difference is that Coughlin brought the "Giant Way" BACK to the Giants and that was why the Giants were the ONE TEAM that wouldn't fold when they got punched in the mouth by the Patriots-- they would punch back.

Justin Tuck even talked about how tough and physical the practices were every single day under Coughlin. They'd practice these smashmouth inside-run plays all damn day to toughen up both the O-Line and D-Line and keep that hard-nosed mentality all season long. (IMO this is partially why injuries were sometimes bad under Coughlin's tenure, but when the team stayed healthy they were the toughest hardest-hitting team in the league. That's the "Giant Way" I want to get back to, not this made up concept that the great Giants teams have just always been made up of boy scouts, and never had any off-field issues or less-than-perfect personalities.
And I'll just add  
Leg of Theismann : 3/4/2021 2:37 pm : link
I think that's exactly why Judge has been a step in the right direction. I think he gets it. I don't think DG (and Mara) got it so much before Judge showed up.
RE: Gettleman got fired from CAR  
bw in dc : 3/4/2021 2:48 pm : link
In comment 15166853 The Dude said:
Quote:
a year and a half removed of them making the superbowl. He added players to that roster no doubt, but largely the previous' FO "roster".

Question for DG supporters.

If the giants don't call DG and offer him the GM job, would he be employed right now?

I'm not sure the answer is yes. I'd wager he would not be the GM of any franchise, but of course, theres no way of knowing. And yes i do think hiring him is an example of "the giants way". Someone in the family, who they know and is not "outside the box" thinking.


Remember - Gettleman got fired after Carolina went 11-5. That Carolina team was a mess with Richardson and Gettleman wearing on people. And he was 67, so it was very likely there was no demand for his GM services. Despite how he raves about his resume, Gettleman wasn't being confused with Bill Polian or Ozzie Newsome.

But the real problem with his hire was Mara's fake search when he brought in Accorsi. Anyone with an IQ over 80 instantly new the outcome was going to be Gettleman. And Accorsi basically admitted this on a podcast last summer.

So instead of going with a candidate with no ties to the organization - younger, understands today's game, more technical, etc - Mara reverts to form and chooses the safety of the box over something new and different. And three years later we are 15-33 and are being led by a GM who still thinks running the ball is the key to success...



RE: That's fine djm, agree with these basic sentiments.  
djm : 3/4/2021 2:59 pm : link
In comment 15166675 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
Just your earlier post clearly was describing nothing other than a traditional "excuse" for Gettleman. And kind of weak one at that with some unknowns as to its basis.

Look forward to hearing DG and Judge kill it next week with their press conference!


Tate was trash I can't really defend it. Hard to like. I thought he'd do better here as he always struck me as a tough gamer at WR. I'd rather pick another dud of a FA to defend than this one...
Gettleman..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 3/4/2021 3:01 pm : link
was fired because he was told that he couldn't explore opportunities to move/cut Thomas Davis or Greg Olsen. He was fired by an owner who had gone off the rails and eventually had his team stripped from him, and before he left, he put the former head of the cheerleaders in place as the President.

He wasn't fired for cause, but not surprisingly, this point has to be made over and over again to posters who already know that but continue to peddle a narrative to push their agenda.
RE: Gettleman..  
Victor in CT : 3/4/2021 3:05 pm : link
In comment 15166897 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
was fired because he was told that he couldn't explore opportunities to move/cut Thomas Davis or Greg Olsen. He was fired by an owner who had gone off the rails and eventually had his team stripped from him, and before he left, he put the former head of the cheerleaders in place as the President.

He wasn't fired for cause, but not surprisingly, this point has to be made over and over again to posters who already know that but continue to peddle a narrative to push their agenda.


Thank you.
RE: Gettleman..  
bw in dc : 3/4/2021 3:29 pm : link
In comment 15166897 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
was fired because he was told that he couldn't explore opportunities to move/cut Thomas Davis or Greg Olsen. He was fired by an owner who had gone off the rails and eventually had his team stripped from him, and before he left, he put the former head of the cheerleaders in place as the President.

He wasn't fired for cause, but not surprisingly, this point has to be made over and over again to posters who already know that but continue to peddle a narrative to push their agenda.


Exactly who said otherwise regarding Gettleman's dismissal?
RE: Gettleman..  
The Dude : 3/4/2021 3:41 pm : link
In comment 15166897 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
was fired because he was told that he couldn't explore opportunities to move/cut Thomas Davis or Greg Olsen. He was fired by an owner who had gone off the rails and eventually had his team stripped from him, and before he left, he put the former head of the cheerleaders in place as the President.

He wasn't fired for cause, but not surprisingly, this point has to be made over and over again to posters who already know that but continue to peddle a narrative to push their agenda.


A narrative? Lol. This is why i stay off the message board, every issue becomes a two party system and string your opinion and fairly obvious things makes you “pushing a narrative”. We’re having a conversation on an Internet forum, I’m not pushing a narrative. I stated fairly obvious things.

I remember reading that Olson was the last straw that broke the camels back but let’s not pretend It wasn’t an accumulation of things that led to his firing.. You simply can’t say that with a straight face.

And again, is DG a GM of a franchise if the giants don’t give him the job in 2018?
On the iphone  
The Dude : 3/4/2021 3:43 pm : link
Stating**

Before i sign off, always a pleasure having an articulate conversation on BBI!
RE: RE: Gettleman..  
Jimmy Googs : 3/4/2021 3:43 pm : link
In comment 15166930 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15166897 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


was fired because he was told that he couldn't explore opportunities to move/cut Thomas Davis or Greg Olsen. He was fired by an owner who had gone off the rails and eventually had his team stripped from him, and before he left, he put the former head of the cheerleaders in place as the President.

He wasn't fired for cause, but not surprisingly, this point has to be made over and over again to posters who already know that but continue to peddle a narrative to push their agenda.



Exactly who said otherwise regarding Gettleman's dismissal?


The pivot to a meaningless point and escape. Common tactic...
Googs...  
bw in dc : 3/4/2021 3:47 pm : link
LOL.

That is one of FMiC's tactics...
LOL..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 3/4/2021 3:54 pm : link
my tactic??

You are the one who mentioned he was fired coming off an 11-5 season because people "tired of him".

Exactly what did I pivot to? It was a response to a point that wasn't even pertinent, and it wasn't correct either.
RE: Googs...  
Jimmy Googs : 3/4/2021 4:03 pm : link
In comment 15166946 bw in dc said:
Quote:
LOL.

That is one of FMiC's tactics...


Yeah, he has a few. 20 years experience on this fan site being a prick doesn't come without learning where the escape hatches are...
RE: LOL..  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/4/2021 4:10 pm : link
In comment 15166949 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
my tactic??

You are the one who mentioned he was fired coming off an 11-5 season because people "tired of him".

Exactly what did I pivot to? It was a response to a point that wasn't even pertinent, and it wasn't correct either.

They're not wrong. You do pull the eject hatch and bail whenever you're on the ropes. You still haven't responded to being shown where you claimed the Wentz trade had anything to do with analytics (even though you were really confident that you hadn't made any reference to analytics), just like you conspicuously disappeared from the board entirely after the 49ers game this past season.

You're basically the message board equivalent of a running game - useful when you're ahead, nonexistent when you're behind. Maybe that's why you like DG so much - you have the same antiquated approach!
RE: LOL..  
bw in dc : 3/4/2021 4:20 pm : link
In comment 15166949 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
my tactic??

You are the one who mentioned he was fired coming off an 11-5 season because people "tired of him".

Exactly what did I pivot to? It was a response to a point that wasn't even pertinent, and it wasn't correct either.


I actually said Gettleman was"...wearing on people".

In fact, your hometown paper, The Charlotte Observer", actually wrote those words...

But let me guess - the writer has a "narrative" to pitch, an agenda against Gettleman, doesn't have inside sources like you, etc.



LINK - ( New Window )
RE: RE: LOL..  
bw in dc : 3/4/2021 4:21 pm : link
In comment 15166959 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:


You're basically the message board equivalent of a running game - useful when you're ahead, nonexistent when you're behind. Maybe that's why you like DG so much - you have the same antiquated approach!


Well played, GD. Well played.
RE: RE: LOL..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 3/4/2021 4:36 pm : link
In comment 15166959 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15166949 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


my tactic??

You are the one who mentioned he was fired coming off an 11-5 season because people "tired of him".

Exactly what did I pivot to? It was a response to a point that wasn't even pertinent, and it wasn't correct either.


They're not wrong. You do pull the eject hatch and bail whenever you're on the ropes. You still haven't responded to being shown where you claimed the Wentz trade had anything to do with analytics (even though you were really confident that you hadn't made any reference to analytics), just like you conspicuously disappeared from the board entirely after the 49ers game this past season.

You're basically the message board equivalent of a running game - useful when you're ahead, nonexistent when you're behind. Maybe that's why you like DG so much - you have the same antiquated approach!


I disappeared from the board?? That's news to me. Just like you posting today "You're back" to me. I didn't leave. And yet - I'm the one accused of creating false points or not having consistency in arguments.

But then again - it's all nonsense anyway. Dunk - if you were a model of consistency in argumentation, you wouldn't start calling some people dupes on this very thread while supporting posts by a previously banned poster who spent an entire year under a dupe handle, only to return with the same exact schtick recently.

Hopefully when I pull the eject lever, I don't break through your glass house there, Champ.
RE: RE: LOL..  
Jimmy Googs : 3/4/2021 4:56 pm : link
In comment 15166959 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15166949 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


my tactic??

You are the one who mentioned he was fired coming off an 11-5 season because people "tired of him".

Exactly what did I pivot to? It was a response to a point that wasn't even pertinent, and it wasn't correct either.


They're not wrong. You do pull the eject hatch and bail whenever you're on the ropes. You still haven't responded to being shown where you claimed the Wentz trade had anything to do with analytics (even though you were really confident that you hadn't made any reference to analytics), just like you conspicuously disappeared from the board entirely after the 49ers game this past season.

You're basically the message board equivalent of a running game - useful when you're ahead, nonexistent when you're behind. Maybe that's why you like DG so much - you have the same antiquated approach!


The analytics-thing on Wentz was pretty funny...he walked right into that one.

That Wentz thread was also the one where fmic mocked a few posters and showed everyone that the KC Chiefs were foolish in giving $400M+ of guaranteed dollars to Mahomes. A few of us pointed out how that actually wasn't correct, but yet another escape...
RE: RE: RE: LOL..  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/4/2021 5:01 pm : link
In comment 15166985 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
In comment 15166959 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 15166949 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


my tactic??

You are the one who mentioned he was fired coming off an 11-5 season because people "tired of him".

Exactly what did I pivot to? It was a response to a point that wasn't even pertinent, and it wasn't correct either.


They're not wrong. You do pull the eject hatch and bail whenever you're on the ropes. You still haven't responded to being shown where you claimed the Wentz trade had anything to do with analytics (even though you were really confident that you hadn't made any reference to analytics), just like you conspicuously disappeared from the board entirely after the 49ers game this past season.

You're basically the message board equivalent of a running game - useful when you're ahead, nonexistent when you're behind. Maybe that's why you like DG so much - you have the same antiquated approach!



I disappeared from the board?? That's news to me. Just like you posting today "You're back" to me. I didn't leave. And yet - I'm the one accused of creating false points or not having consistency in arguments.

But then again - it's all nonsense anyway. Dunk - if you were a model of consistency in argumentation, you wouldn't start calling some people dupes on this very thread while supporting posts by a previously banned poster who spent an entire year under a dupe handle, only to return with the same exact schtick recently.

Hopefully when I pull the eject lever, I don't break through your glass house there, Champ.

So you're giving me shit for someone else supposedly being a dupe? That's an interesting sidestep on the Wentz thing.
I'm actually..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 3/4/2021 5:12 pm : link
giving you shit for selectively going after dupes - all while interacting often with one of the biggest dupes on the site.
Came for the comments  
Saquads26 : 3/4/2021 5:17 pm : link
Staying for the bitch fight
RE: I'm actually..  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/4/2021 5:25 pm : link
In comment 15167008 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
giving you shit for selectively going after dupes - all while interacting often with one of the biggest dupes on the site.

Still sidestepping. I hope Jon Berger can contain his tasty suds.
...  
christian : 3/4/2021 5:53 pm : link
Quote:
Please show me..
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/11/2020 9:18 pm : link
where I've defended Gettleman


Please see, thread.
Ahhh yes, the Giants way  
NoGainDayne : 3/4/2021 6:00 pm : link
How enlightening the Jon Berger thread was.

People falling all over themselves to talk about what a good guy he was, with little talk of how he did at his actual job. By any reasonable measure, as a statistician he did not perform well at his job the last 8 or so years. I am sure there was a time he was good, but that time had passed.

Lots of talk in the meadowlands of how “smart” and “good” people are. How much thought is placed in the idea that you can be very smart and particularly good and still be bad at certain roles or tasks? That the skills and knowledge you need to do jobs well is fast evolving. That few organizations succeed anymore without commitments to a core purpose and commitment to trying new ideas and evolving to work towards a shared vision over adherence to function. I read Built to Last recently, the #1 book on the reading list of Jeff Bezos.

Leaves me wondering, what is the core purpose of the leadership of the Giants? When the brother of the owner keeps his position despite very little evidence he’s good at his job, does it seem like the core purpose is winning football?

How good of a person are you when you accept money and faith and trust and run an organization that takes in billions of dollars to put a good football product on the field and it seems like your preference is to employ your relatives and friends instead of an honest evaluation of who the best people are for the jobs? This is the exact kind of behavior that CEOs are removed for in the corporate world.

To save some people the time. I am not calling myself a “good” person. I am not saying the Giants owners must be “good” people. I am tired of everyone patting each other on the back and calling themselves good people, John Mara’s yearly “let me throw platitudes about how much I care” speech when as a loyal fan who has put a lot of money into the team, I feel disregarded and disrespected. And I know I am not the only one.
RE: Ahhh yes, the Giants way  
Go Terps : 3/4/2021 6:44 pm : link
In comment 15167027 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:
How enlightening the Jon Berger thread was.

People falling all over themselves to talk about what a good guy he was, with little talk of how he did at his actual job. By any reasonable measure, as a statistician he did not perform well at his job the last 8 or so years. I am sure there was a time he was good, but that time had passed.

Lots of talk in the meadowlands of how “smart” and “good” people are. How much thought is placed in the idea that you can be very smart and particularly good and still be bad at certain roles or tasks? That the skills and knowledge you need to do jobs well is fast evolving. That few organizations succeed anymore without commitments to a core purpose and commitment to trying new ideas and evolving to work towards a shared vision over adherence to function. I read Built to Last recently, the #1 book on the reading list of Jeff Bezos.

Leaves me wondering, what is the core purpose of the leadership of the Giants? When the brother of the owner keeps his position despite very little evidence he’s good at his job, does it seem like the core purpose is winning football?

How good of a person are you when you accept money and faith and trust and run an organization that takes in billions of dollars to put a good football product on the field and it seems like your preference is to employ your relatives and friends instead of an honest evaluation of who the best people are for the jobs? This is the exact kind of behavior that CEOs are removed for in the corporate world.

To save some people the time. I am not calling myself a “good” person. I am not saying the Giants owners must be “good” people. I am tired of everyone patting each other on the back and calling themselves good people, John Mara’s yearly “let me throw platitudes about how much I care” speech when as a loyal fan who has put a lot of money into the team, I feel disregarded and disrespected. And I know I am not the only one.


Well said.
The core purpose of any business  
fkap : 3/5/2021 8:40 am : link
is making money.

The product is the means to that end. Any company can (or strive to) make a better product if making money weren't an issue.

Within the confines of football, where a lot of the money is guaranteed, there is still money that is on the table to be earned, and winning football is how to get it.

I seriously doubt the Maras/Tisches are sitting back saying "ah, this is the life. Money for nothing and chicks for free". Their acumen in actually achieving winning football, though, is a valid question.

Chris Mara is an enigma. The masses don't know what his actual role is. A figure head? A key position such as the title suggests? The results with him in the fold certainly make one wonder how he keeps his job if it is the latter. The question comes up often enough, and we have enough asshatry around here, I'm surprised we haven't heard a hint what his role is.
The Berger..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 3/5/2021 4:16 pm : link
thread was enlightening in many ways some of you completely missed.

A well respected member of the team leaves and people who know very little about him, his role, or his impact took potshots.

And that's become acceptable here. Because the team is losing some take the slant that everyone involved sucks and needs to go. Or worse, some fancy themselves as experts and don't have a fucking clue as to what the team is doing on certain fronts.

Not knowing what Berger did here is a perfect example of that.

And yet some still bask in their ignorance.

RE: The Berger..  
bw in dc : 3/5/2021 4:34 pm : link
In comment 15167802 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
thread was enlightening in many ways some of you completely missed.

A well respected member of the team leaves and people who know very little about him, his role, or his impact took potshots.

And that's become acceptable here. Because the team is losing some take the slant that everyone involved sucks and needs to go. Or worse, some fancy themselves as experts and don't have a fucking clue as to what the team is doing on certain fronts.

Not knowing what Berger did here is a perfect example of that.

And yet some still bask in their ignorance.


Pass me the Kleenex.

We are criticizing people who are paid a substantial amount of money - generated by the most popular sport in America; and thanks to the people who watch, attend it, listen to it, read about it, etc - to put together a good product. And for too long they have been poor at their jobs.

For a guy who obviously prides himself on his bully status, your bleeding heart here is very unbecoming.


Therein..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 3/5/2021 4:40 pm : link
lies part of the issue.

You have no fucking clue as to the competence of Jon Berger. You don't know what he's done, what impact he has or even how he's been evaluated.

But you have no problem coming on a website and ripping the guy.

I'm guessing you need the Kleenex to jerkoff into more than anything else.
Since you clearly are never going to let go of your obsession with me  
NoGainDayne : 3/5/2021 4:49 pm : link
despite committing slander against me and threatening me...

I guess the new tactic I will try is to just respond to you with far more respect than you deserve given your reprehensible behavior on this website and you directly threatening me.

DG readily admitted last season that he's made mistakes when it comes to modernizing the team when he talked about hiring "computer folks" last offseason. Article linked below:

Quote:
I’m going to learn from my mistakes. I never stop asking myself the question: ‘What could we have done differently? What could we have done better?’ That question never stops getting asked,” he said. “I always ask that question. We evaluate, we reevaluate, we go backwards and forwards with it. And that’s what I’ve got to do. I’ve got to talk to other GMs, inside and outside the industry, and continue to grow.


I've been very consistent from the start in pointing out specific instances where the Giants have been clearly deficient in their analytical abilities. My personal credentials and the lack of real computer science, advanced math and software development experience in the named positions in the Giants front office only came up because of your dogged pursuit to personally discredit me and anything I say.

Let's be specific. Jon Berger had a lot of contact with the coaches. One of the things I pointed out was how bad the Giants timeout usage was which are relatively simple mathematical calculations to get right. That's how all this started.

This linked article also talks about Saquon Barkley who DG consistently doubled down on calling an outlier. I've pointed out before and I will again, nothing about Saquon mathematically makes him an outlier. An outlier is a point of data far out of the existing distributions of data to such an extent they are often thrown out in machine learning analysis. Nothing about Saquon's draft profile or NFL profile makes him an outlier. Me and a lot of others question what kind of good statistical analysis could have gone into a pick like that.

You are the king of making "points" with flimsy evidence or thinking you've made points when you haven't. Sure, there can be successful people in an unsuccessful organization. Please enlighten us as to what systems the Giants have in place that Jon Berger contributed to that are working for them right now? I'd love to learn about them.

Before you come back at me with your usual venom and hatred. I'd consider how far your standing has fallen in this community. I am actually genuinely concerned that you could act in ways towards me that cause a lot of collateral damage if your standing continues to fall. For my own safety I've informed more people in the BBI community off the board of what happened on the thread where you threatened to reveal my identity.
Giants GM once mocked analytics. Now he declares team has hired ‘four computer folks.’ - ( New Window )
RE: Therein..  
bw in dc : 3/5/2021 4:56 pm : link
In comment 15167821 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
lies part of the issue.

You have no fucking clue as to the competence of Jon Berger. You don't know what he's done, what impact he has or even how he's been evaluated.

But you have no problem coming on a website and ripping the guy.

I'm guessing you need the Kleenex to jerkoff into more than anything else.


Another mishit by the FatMan in Charlotte.

I never said anything on the Berger thread. But that's just you being you.

But I don't have any issue with those who chose to criticize those in this organization. They have earned the wrath of the fans.

The "Giants Way" extends to fans as well...

Thou shall not criticize anyone in this organization. For those are good men and women are trying to do their best...
RE: Therein..  
Jimmy Googs : 3/5/2021 4:57 pm : link
In comment 15167821 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
lies part of the issue.

You have no fucking clue as to the competence of Jon Berger. You don't know what he's done, what impact he has or even how he's been evaluated.

But you have no problem coming on a website and ripping the guy.

I'm guessing you need the Kleenex to jerkoff into more than anything else.


Hopefully Berger helped the Giants during his time with the club and was a good guy.

You on the other hand are just continue to show this site what a chucklehead you are.

Like I said yesterday, your posts are basically just comic relief these days for many of us...
It's almost time to use the...  
bw in dc : 3/5/2021 5:02 pm : link
Haha!  
Jimmy Googs : 3/5/2021 5:05 pm : link
classic bw...
RE: RE: Therein..  
NoGainDayne : 3/5/2021 5:09 pm : link
In comment 15167832 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 15167821 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


Hopefully Berger helped the Giants during his time with the club and was a good guy.

You on the other hand are just continue to show this site what a chucklehead you are.

Like I said yesterday, your posts are basically just comic relief these days for many of us...


They'd be funnier if it wasn't also so out of touch. Not sure how many women would be comfortable with the phrase "cuntery." The irony certainly isn't lost that someone who finds themselves so often trying to be the the protector of truth on something like organizational modernization would act like such a dinosaur
RE: The core purpose of any business  
NoGainDayne : 3/5/2021 6:07 pm : link
In comment 15167402 fkap said:
Quote:
is making money.

The product is the means to that end. Any company can (or strive to) make a better product if making money weren't an issue.

Within the confines of football, where a lot of the money is guaranteed, there is still money that is on the table to be earned, and winning football is how to get it.

I seriously doubt the Maras/Tisches are sitting back saying "ah, this is the life. Money for nothing and chicks for free". Their acumen in actually achieving winning football, though, is a valid question.

Chris Mara is an enigma. The masses don't know what his actual role is. A figure head? A key position such as the title suggests? The results with him in the fold certainly make one wonder how he keeps his job if it is the latter. The question comes up often enough, and we have enough asshatry around here, I'm surprised we haven't heard a hint what his role is.


So the book, written by some pretty smart Stanford business school professors points out that it is actually essentially to have part of your ideology to be specifically why do you exist other than making money. It's a longitudinal study of successful businesses and they found that part to be an important part of what makes cultures of success happen.

I'd say perhaps some good core ideologies from the Giants could be:

Bringing joy to their fans
Proudly representing the New York community

This is what I would say is within the general vibe of how John Mara talks.

Regardless, short of an ideology that would represent well how the company wanted to operate internally and represent itself I'd say that something like nepotism really rots a culture regardless of how powerful someone is.

If the owners brother is watching your every move, how easy is it to challenge that person? How easy is it to present a scouting report that you think he might disagree with?

Absent of a more broad cultural ideology, I'd say that cultures of winning tend to be kind of the fallback in the NFL and I think there are many organizations that function as if their cultures are far better than the Giants. Regardless of these teams talk about their cultures, the results speak well for them.

I think the way the Giants conduct themselves it would be hard to feel like winning was their #1 priority. And all their talk of how much culture matters kind of falls short if you run a GM search the way they did. And while I will readily admit I don't know anything about how people inside the building feel, I think generally when organizations perform poorly and there isn't real change in the upper management morale declines sometimes exponentially. Maybe not in overt ways but certainly in the quality of work people can put forth
Additional info on Built to Last and Vision Framework - ( New Window )
RE: RE: RE: Therein..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 3/5/2021 6:24 pm : link
In comment 15167842 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:
In comment 15167832 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


In comment 15167821 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


Hopefully Berger helped the Giants during his time with the club and was a good guy.

You on the other hand are just continue to show this site what a chucklehead you are.

Like I said yesterday, your posts are basically just comic relief these days for many of us...



They'd be funnier if it wasn't also so out of touch. Not sure how many women would be comfortable with the phrase "cuntery." The irony certainly isn't lost that someone who finds themselves so often trying to be the the protector of truth on something like organizational modernization would act like such a dinosaur


Are you now violating the very terms you've cried to Eric about at least TWICE now??

For the record - you have threatened legal action twice now. You've threatened slander twice now. ON A FUCKING USERNAME!!!

Seems like when challenged your recourse has now been to threaten to sue the site, but you don't even know what constitutes slander. You might want to brush up on legalities there Ace before giving other lectures.

A supposed grown man has gone to the site owner TWICE now. Call it what you want, but cuntery seems to fit well.
🍿  
Saquads26 : 3/5/2021 6:29 pm : link
.
No need..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 3/5/2021 6:36 pm : link
for popcorn. He who shall not be addressed because he has a relative who is a lawyer on speed dial can just avoid addressing me since he's tried to initiate legal action twice for me to do the same.

I'm not going to tweak the nose of the fucking clown
I believe it's you who consistently violates the terms  
NoGainDayne : 3/5/2021 6:44 pm : link
I'm just trying new ways to get you to act like a real adult person. But I guess my hopes are too high.

Of course you didn't respond to any of the points I made or the fact that you absolutely threatened to reveal my identity. That seems a lot more real than this "username" stuff you are harping about.

Regardless you can feel free to flail around like a mentally deranged person. I'm over being upset by you in any way. Which one of us on this thread seems like they need to be moderated do you feel?

Lol at you ALWAYS responding to me even when I ignore you then pretending that you are above it.

Also odd that you would joke about a lawyer that is close to me who reads the site (my father by the way) thinking that you crossed a line. I ignored your first lawyer joke potshot on the BBI mock draft thread. But hey, who would ever expect you to drop anything? I'm sure my Dad looks forward to you drinking your beer and snarfling as you joke about threatening to reveal his sons identity on an internet message board.




This is a good line by NGD and appropriate...  
Jimmy Googs : 3/5/2021 6:50 pm : link

Quote:
Before you come back at me with your usual venom and hatred. I'd consider how far your standing has fallen in this community.
And one more little piece of icing on the cake for you  
NoGainDayne : 3/5/2021 7:03 pm : link
you act like this is about me but here is the first time I emailed the moderators about you, word for word no edits.

May 21, 2019

Subject: NoGainDayne - Can you please ask FatMan to stop interacting with me?

Quote:
I want to participate in productive and healthy debates about things but our relationship on the site has become unhealthy. I don't think he actually wants to make any points just insult me and derail conversations. I do not want to engage with him anymore and I'll ask that you ask him to do the same.

This thread he's made it pretty clear that he pretty much just wants to try to get under my skin. I'm hard pressed to even post on a thread without him aggressively coming after me. I've gone as far as posting a full analysis architecture that I considered to be quite valuable as it relates to my expertise to try to satiate his desire to undermine my credibility and try to show him that I'm not just talking out of my ass but it is pretty clear that he doesn't want to have any kind of healthy debate.

Thanks in advance for your consideration.


Out of respect for the privacy of the mods I will not share the response but needless to say he continued to attack me for years after this. I think this is an important data point in this victim mentality he's representing here. I tried, for the benefit of the community to pull out of this back and forth and he had just zero interest in that. Then he whines about me responding to him coming after me AGAIN. Unbelievable.
RE: No need..  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/5/2021 10:04 pm : link
In comment 15167894 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
for popcorn. He who shall not be addressed because he has a relative who is a lawyer on speed dial can just avoid addressing me since he's tried to initiate legal action twice for me to do the same.

I'm not going to tweak the nose of the fucking clown

I guess only one of us can interact with a suspected dupe while calling out another, huh?
To be clear, I was not suggesting that NGD is a dupe.  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/5/2021 10:08 pm : link
🍿
RE: To be clear, I was not suggesting that NGD is a dupe.  
FatMan in Charlotte : 3/5/2021 11:23 pm : link
In comment 15168034 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
🍿


To be clear - I've already called Saquads a dupe. You might want to take heed of that.

As for NGD - he's just confirmed that he has gone to Eric about the posting and has threatened legal action. As if a username can be slandered. I don't know if this should be addressed to him of his Father, but you can't fucking slander a username. A fucking lawyer should know that!!

How does one "threaten to reveal one's identity"?? You fucking lunatic. You are NoGainDayne. That's it to BBI. Doesn't matter if there's someone out there approaching NFL teams with Madden simulations. If some fucking username of NoGainDayne is doing that - who the fuck knows.

No identity is getting revealed. My advice is if a person is getting laughed out of NFL offices, they have bigger issues to address than getting called out on BBI. A username getting called out.

Maybe your Father is a terrible lawyer, I have no fucking clue. All I'm telling the board is that you've gone to eric numerous times claiming slander. Slander of a username, you fucking imbecile. see how that holds up in court, Chief.
And let's  
FatMan in Charlotte : 3/5/2021 11:28 pm : link
also point out that you've admitted to going to the site owner to ask a poster to stop interacting with you.

A grown man going to a site owner to ask for another person to stop interacting with them.

But hey - Dad gave you legal advice!!
Did you seriously just suggest my father  
NoGainDayne : 3/6/2021 12:01 am : link
of which you know literally nothing about is a terrible lawyer?

What kind of a person does that?

My father and I have gone to Giants games for most of my life. We love the Giants and have so many fond memories. He reads the site because I write on it. He’s proud of me

Jesus. This is a new low for you.

RE: RE: To be clear, I was not suggesting that NGD is a dupe.  
Saquads26 : 3/6/2021 12:09 am : link
In comment 15168051 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
In comment 15168034 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


🍿



To be clear - I've already called Saquads a dupe. You might want to take heed of that.

As for NGD - he's just confirmed that he has gone to Eric about the posting and has threatened legal action. As if a username can be slandered. I don't know if this should be addressed to him of his Father, but you can't fucking slander a username. A fucking lawyer should know that!!

How does one "threaten to reveal one's identity"?? You fucking lunatic. You are NoGainDayne. That's it to BBI. Doesn't matter if there's someone out there approaching NFL teams with Madden simulations. If some fucking username of NoGainDayne is doing that - who the fuck knows.

No identity is getting revealed. My advice is if a person is getting laughed out of NFL offices, they have bigger issues to address than getting called out on BBI. A username getting called out.

Maybe your Father is a terrible lawyer, I have no fucking clue. All I'm telling the board is that you've gone to eric numerous times claiming slander. Slander of a username, you fucking imbecile. see how that holds up in court, Chief.


I'd pile on embarrassing you here but that's already been handled by numerous members. Carry on so I can keep laughing...
One more for my Dad  
NoGainDayne : 3/6/2021 3:34 am : link
There once was a man so sure of his grit

That he defended the Giants with all of his wit

He snarfled right onto the floor

his life but a bore

Turns out

he shouted and flouted

the knowledge he touted

and cut down his own paltry core
RE: And let's  
Jimmy Googs : 3/6/2021 7:48 am : link
In comment 15168054 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
also point out that you've admitted to going to the site owner to ask a poster to stop interacting with you.

A grown man going to a site owner to ask for another person to stop interacting with them.



Is that all it takes...

Eric - can you please ask Fmic to stop interacting with the rest of the site.

Sincerely,

The rest of site
RE: RE: To be clear, I was not suggesting that NGD is a dupe.  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/6/2021 10:27 am : link
In comment 15168051 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
In comment 15168034 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


🍿



To be clear - I've already called Saquads a dupe. You might want to take heed of that.

As for NGD - he's just confirmed that he has gone to Eric about the posting and has threatened legal action. As if a username can be slandered. I don't know if this should be addressed to him of his Father, but you can't fucking slander a username. A fucking lawyer should know that!!

How does one "threaten to reveal one's identity"?? You fucking lunatic. You are NoGainDayne. That's it to BBI. Doesn't matter if there's someone out there approaching NFL teams with Madden simulations. If some fucking username of NoGainDayne is doing that - who the fuck knows.

No identity is getting revealed. My advice is if a person is getting laughed out of NFL offices, they have bigger issues to address than getting called out on BBI. A username getting called out.

Maybe your Father is a terrible lawyer, I have no fucking clue. All I'm telling the board is that you've gone to eric numerous times claiming slander. Slander of a username, you fucking imbecile. see how that holds up in court, Chief.

I'm NGD?

Were you hitting the whiskey a little hard last night?
FMIC was a much more effective bully  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/6/2021 10:29 am : link
Before he started punching above his weight.
Dunk..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 3/6/2021 12:22 pm : link
I only was addressing you with the comment about dupes. The rest was for NGD.

He posted a link to a thread above where he went to the mods. This is the exchange that set him off:

Quote:
LOL..
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/21/2019 1:09 pm : link
Yep. Gettleman is to blame for the attitudes of a lot of players who weren't here when he was around.

Isn't that what you're insinuating?

Maybe there's a way to assign analytics to the way a GM interacts with people??


NoGainDayne : 5/21/2019 1:12 pm : link

I just want you to know i'm actually done responding to you completely. Maybe just save yourself time and stop responding to me. You are a terrible person who I have no time for so bye.


He went to the mods on a response that didn't have any profanity and told them to have me stop responding to his posts. He's actually threatened legal action TWICE against Eric.

And apparently, he's paranoid that I'm going to "reveal his identity" that he's talked offline to BBI'ers about me.

If Eric has to deal with legal threats on innocuous posts, how often is he having to deal with this shit??

NGD thinks so highly of himself that he's actually provided his professional qualifications to the mods and told them that if his "expertise" is challenged, he'll sue for slander. And he's concerned that I'm the lunatic.

And back in 2019 he was supposedly done responding me and has since threatened to sue the site twice. He's about as good at understanding the word "done" as he is about analytics.
RE: Did you seriously just suggest my father  
Matt M. : 3/6/2021 12:53 pm : link
In comment 15168059 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:
of which you know literally nothing about is a terrible lawyer?

What kind of a person does that?

My father and I have gone to Giants games for most of my life. We love the Giants and have so many fond memories. He reads the site because I write on it. He’s proud of me

Jesus. This is a new low for you.
Wait - your dad is proud of you for posting on a sports fan site?
RE: Dunk..  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/6/2021 12:54 pm : link
In comment 15168303 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
I only was addressing you with the comment about dupes. The rest was for NGD.

He posted a link to a thread above where he went to the mods. This is the exchange that set him off:



Quote:


LOL..
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/21/2019 1:09 pm : link
Yep. Gettleman is to blame for the attitudes of a lot of players who weren't here when he was around.

Isn't that what you're insinuating?

Maybe there's a way to assign analytics to the way a GM interacts with people??


NoGainDayne : 5/21/2019 1:12 pm : link

I just want you to know i'm actually done responding to you completely. Maybe just save yourself time and stop responding to me. You are a terrible person who I have no time for so bye.



He went to the mods on a response that didn't have any profanity and told them to have me stop responding to his posts. He's actually threatened legal action TWICE against Eric.

And apparently, he's paranoid that I'm going to "reveal his identity" that he's talked offline to BBI'ers about me.

If Eric has to deal with legal threats on innocuous posts, how often is he having to deal with this shit??

NGD thinks so highly of himself that he's actually provided his professional qualifications to the mods and told them that if his "expertise" is challenged, he'll sue for slander. And he's concerned that I'm the lunatic.

And back in 2019 he was supposedly done responding me and has since threatened to sue the site twice. He's about as good at understanding the word "done" as he is about analytics.

Your shit with him (and vice versa) is its own thing. I'm not getting involved there. But I will say that lately you've been throwing around the same bullying tactics that people are calling you out for, but never coming back to answer for your missteps.

I think you and I are fairly similar in our approach here - both of us have very little tolerance for nonsense that we disagree with and/or know/believe not to be true. We just don't always land on the same side of the aisle, and that's fine - it does provide balance.

Where my feathers get raised is your inability to ever come back to a thread where you've been proven wrong and acknowledge that you were wrong. It's a gaslighting technique, and - quite frankly - it's shitty.

I throw my weight around plenty, probably more than I should. But I at least try to throw a bone to those who prove me wrong, even if it's a worthless message board "hey, I fucked up, my bad" sort of thing. You just disappear from those threads and continue to attack. That's why I've chased you around on the Wentz thing - your post had ZERO to do with analytics and I suspect that you know that. You're smart enough to have known it even as you typed it, but that thread had a bit of an analytics bent, so you took a swing.

Taking that swing is fine, we all do it ("we all" being the BBI regulars who interact on most threads). Where you differ is your refusal to ever come back and admit to being wrong, and you're wrong just as much as the rest of us.

You should try a bit of humility instead of your constant bullying and see if maybe we can reach a reasonable conversation in the process. I know you and I have had productive debates in the past, and I'm confident we can again going forward.
I will say this  
Matt M. : 3/6/2021 1:01 pm : link
I've just been reading through the more recent posts now. I admit to not knowing much about Berger. I don't care. The bottom line is this organization has been a joke under different GMs and coaches and it is not unfair to question most in the front office. The only positive seems to be the current coaching staff and even that may be a bit premature. After all, we are lauding a 6 win season.
RE: RE: RE: To be clear, I was not suggesting that NGD is a dupe.  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/6/2021 1:54 pm : link
In comment 15168063 Saquads26 said:
Quote:
In comment 15168051 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


In comment 15168034 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


🍿



To be clear - I've already called Saquads a dupe. You might want to take heed of that.

As for NGD - he's just confirmed that he has gone to Eric about the posting and has threatened legal action. As if a username can be slandered. I don't know if this should be addressed to him of his Father, but you can't fucking slander a username. A fucking lawyer should know that!!

How does one "threaten to reveal one's identity"?? You fucking lunatic. You are NoGainDayne. That's it to BBI. Doesn't matter if there's someone out there approaching NFL teams with Madden simulations. If some fucking username of NoGainDayne is doing that - who the fuck knows.

No identity is getting revealed. My advice is if a person is getting laughed out of NFL offices, they have bigger issues to address than getting called out on BBI. A username getting called out.

Maybe your Father is a terrible lawyer, I have no fucking clue. All I'm telling the board is that you've gone to eric numerous times claiming slander. Slander of a username, you fucking imbecile. see how that holds up in court, Chief.



I'd pile on embarrassing you here but that's already been handled by numerous members. Carry on so I can keep laughing...

Denny, this handle will be banned just like the rest of yours have been the next time I make my donation. Just eat your popcorn and STFU.
This thread has really gone downhill.  
cosmicj : 3/6/2021 2:05 pm : link
Mods - I ask of you to start assessing bad BBI behavior fairly and equitably without reference to tenure or any personal rep or connections you have with the offending poster. I sure get the sense different posters are allowed different levels of leeway. Do you have a specific written list of unacceptable behavior that you’ve agreed to as a group? You don’t have to share this with the entire forum, but do you have thresholds laid down that can be objectively applied?
Let’s get a few things straight here  
NoGainDayne : 3/6/2021 2:20 pm : link
in this ongoing adult tantrum that is your BBI persona you get a lot of facts wrong. So here are the facts:

Quote:
You need to keep telling people your qualifications because a lot of people knowledgeable about analytics think you are full of shit and for some reason, you need to throw fake resumes around to appear to be an expert. I came to that conclusion early on in our interactions, yet you keep going like the Energizer Bunny.


1. You said this in the thread linked below and I merely sent my resume over to make it clear that you shouldn’t say outright lies like this about me. Deal in all your 99% bullshit all you want. But I won’t tolerate lying.

2. You revealed my first name on a thread and threatened more, I’m not sharing that thread because of that. And yes, revealing someone’s real name on the internet without their consent is very serious. But like with most things you don’t want to face that head on and want to pretend like it’s something else.

3. I work in Fintech. Your “I’m getting laughed out of boardrooms” thing is highly inaccurate. I’ve exchanged emails with one team over the years because early in my career I met someone in ownership and my ideas seemed interesting. I’ve had some contact with the Giants contact which included calling DG a “visionary” in analytics. I’ve offered to help, because I care about the team and have seen some glaring holes in the systems that I do have ideas how to make better but my original offer was simply to help them bring in someone that has more technical skills and donate my time to do that. Not sure how that makes your statement at all accurate. And you have no idea what I’ve been talking about if you think it’s “madden simulations” shows how much you know or actually understand. By idea mainly involved using predictive analytics in contract structuring to free up more space programmatically in years the team doesn’t do well. And balance risk tolerances of players better using portfolio management tactics.

The irony is I have been talking to a large AI company because your assaults on my character have actually forced me to do a lot of work on my concrete ideas so I ended up just sending it to a friend whose company I thought would have more resources to work on the idea. Because I literally do not have time to actually pitch the ideas and get laughed out of boardrooms as you suggest.

For some reason you think you can get under my skin still but I could never do anything in football and he perfectly happy. I suppose if it does happen I’ll owe you a thank you on that day because I didn’t start formalizing my first draft before your witch hunt to prove that I didn’t know what I was talking about.

Accusation of a fake resume - ( New Window )
RE: RE: Did you seriously just suggest my father  
NoGainDayne : 3/6/2021 2:23 pm : link
In comment 15168329 Matt M. said:
Quote:
In comment 15168059 NoGainDayne said:


Quote:


of which you know literally nothing about is a terrible lawyer?

What kind of a person does that?

My father and I have gone to Giants games for most of my life. We love the Giants and have so many fond memories. He reads the site because I write on it. He’s proud of me

Jesus. This is a new low for you.


Wait - your dad is proud of you for posting on a sports fan site?


Lol no he’s proud of what I do in my career and sometimes he learns interesting things about how I’d apply it to football on here. Most threads I start he reads occasionally others. This “running to my Dad” thing that Fatman is suggesting actually happened because he read the thread where Fatman used my first name himself
I’ll never understand  
MyNameIsMyName : 3/6/2021 3:02 pm : link
Why you guys waste time with people like FMIC. It’s obvious he’s on here to insult people, and try to piss you off. Just ignore him
RE: I’ll never understand  
Saquads26 : 3/6/2021 4:18 pm : link
In comment 15168428 MyNameIsMyName said:
Quote:
Why you guys waste time with people like FMIC. It’s obvious he’s on here to insult people, and try to piss you off. Just ignore him


Exactly but all he does is embarrass himself so it's hilarious
To bring it back to Tate  
NoGainDayne : 3/6/2021 5:44 pm : link
Ernie Adams worked in Finance and has been with the Pats since 2000.

The funny thing is i'm not trying to highlight these things as me being smarter or unique to me. Asset management and players as portfolios of assets and using the accounting rules to your advantage clearly exists around the league.

It would not surprise me to learn that many of the concepts I am suggesting (perhaps less grounded in using models like LSTMs to unify long term value and short term decision making) have been in place for a long time for many teams.

The issue we keep bumping up against is not that I think I know what goes on in the Giants building, it's how do we end up with moves like the Tate move with sound asset management math? How is it that many other teams that seem to be in the bottom of the league for extensive periods of time have lots of cap room while we don't?

I'm not presuming anything about what is going on inside the building. I'm honestly hoping that they haven't really made a true endeavor into applying advanced analytics in these areas already because if they have, it has been with the wrong people approach or likely both.

Again..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 3/6/2021 6:00 pm : link
what is it with this shit??

Quote:
The irony is I have been talking to a large AI company because your assaults on my character have actually forced me to do a lot of work on my concrete ideas so I ended up just sending it to a friend whose company I thought would have more resources to work on the idea. Because I literally do not have time to actually pitch the ideas and get laughed out of boardrooms as you suggest.


Who has insulted the character of a real person?? You are a username on this site. Get that perfectly clear in your head.

If something someone said to you on a message board is considered an insult to your character that you've actually taken steps in real life that you have been "forced" to make - you may want to refrain from using messageboards.

Let's just reiterate - you've gone to the site owner twice with legal threats. Another sign that you may want to refrain from using messageboards. You've literally provided a resume to the mods. A third sign that you should refrain from using messageboards.


Are you really saying someone has to have a name  
NoGainDayne : 3/6/2021 6:03 pm : link
to have their character called into question?

How much duct tape and glue do you have over there to try and hold together your array of flimsy arguments?
That's exactly..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 3/6/2021 6:15 pm : link
what I'm saying. To everyone on this messageboard, you are NoGainDayne, just like I'm FatMan in Charlotte. It is why threatening to sue for slander isn't valid - you are a USERNAME!!

I'll give you my duct tape to piece together the flimsy legal document you're trying to peddle.

Nobody knows who the fuck you are and nobody cares. That's a point you continually ignore, which apparently has led you to be "forced" to do thing is real life. It has led you to providing your qualifications a number of times on threads, it has led you to threaten legal action and it has led you to be paranoid about being "outed".

You can't slander a username, Chief. NoGainDayne has no indication of your identity. Why is this so tough to grasp?
Hey chief let me put together a pretty simple equation for you  
NoGainDayne : 3/6/2021 6:25 pm : link
You threatening to reveal my name + making false statements about me = something you can be sued for the second you reveal my real name.

Something that again, you’ve come dangerously close to. So you can bet me and anyone who cares about me is concerned when you continue to behave like a crazy person here. You clearly know who I am based on what you’ve said. And you clearly want me to know that. It’s fine, I don’t care. I just think it’s perfectly acceptable to let you know I’m prepared to defend myself if and when you do cross that line. And what you are also failing to communicate accurately is that I’m not the one that actually wants to take the legal action, I’m actually the one that talked down the person whose legal acumen you’ve mocked. I’ve expressed concern and asked the site for help mitigating the risk that you’d post my name here, that is all I’ve done.

So I’ll be clear, I was concerned, I am concerned. Maybe get some help please?

RE: Not to be a contrarian  
steve in ky : 3/6/2021 8:26 pm : link
In comment 15166723 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
but I've often felt like the "Giants Way" is it's own thing separate from the two eras of winning they've had in my lifetime.

The "giants way" led to the Commissioner having to intervene in the operation of the team and installing an independent GM who saved the franchise.

They won under Parcells. When he was gone, so was the winning. They won under Coughlin. When he was gone, so was the winning. You might argue that management failed Coughlin and Eli and unintentionally helped make their later years worse.



Winning the Super Bowl is so rare that teams that have won multiple times usually have had it occur under only a limited number of different coaches.

Patriots 6 wins with only one coach
Steelers 6 wins with only 3 coaches
49ers 5 wins with only 2 coaches
Cowboys 5 wins with only 3 coaches
Packers 4 wins with only 3 coaches
Giants 4 wins with only 2 coaches
Broncos 3 wins with only 2 coaches
Washington 3 wins with only 1 coach
Raiders 3 wins with only 2 coaches
Colts 2 wins with only 2 coaches
Chiefs 2 wins with only 2 coaches
Ravens 2 wins with only 2 coaches
Dolphins 2 wins with only 2 coaches
Buccaneers 2 wins with only 2 coaches

Then only six more teams that were able to just win one


There is nothing related to the fact that the Giants won Super Bowls with only two different coaches that point to anything unique or inferior they have done as an organization compared the the rest of the league and the historical numbers of coaches it took to win Super Bowls for individual team.



I don't think I've seen someone so thin skinned as NGD  
adamg : 3/6/2021 11:00 pm : link
Must be the spoiled upper middle class upbringing... At least my own spoiled upper middle class upbringing taught me perspective and shit. I don't need a pat on the back for writing a good forum post. Jesus Christ.

See a therapist, dude.
.  
adamg : 3/6/2021 11:01 pm : link
And you don't need moderators to ignore posters  
adamg : 3/6/2021 11:02 pm : link
Just ignore them yourself. That's called being an adult and setting boundaries.
Oh christ another thread destroyed by FMiC  
.McL. : 3/7/2021 3:20 am : link
Why don't the moderators ever ban him?

He has most certainly crossed the line with regards to the terms here on many occasions and much more egregiously so than others who have been banned.

Why is he given special treatment?
Mods? Anything you would care to to explain?
RE: Oh christ another thread destroyed by FMiC  
Saquads26 : 3/7/2021 7:52 am : link
In comment 15168678 .McL. said:
Quote:
Why don't the moderators ever ban him?

He has most certainly crossed the line with regards to the terms here on many occasions and much more egregiously so than others who have been banned.

Why is he given special treatment?
Mods? Anything you would care to to explain?


Why ban him when he's nothing but entertainment.
Because he’s toxic and rarely talks about football?  
cosmicj : 3/7/2021 8:43 am : link
I’ve actually become practiced at scrolling quickly through threads where FMIC gets into one of his flame wars to actually get to posts which have information or thoughts about the actual topic. Practiced because I have to do it so frequently.
This thread deserves it's own special place on  
Thunderstruck27 : 3/7/2021 11:37 am : link
Bizarro World.
I'm not placing blame on any 1 poster  
Matt M. : 3/7/2021 1:27 pm : link
and I am not obsessed with dups. I am just annoyed that seemingly every football thread denigrated to this crap. Take it outside children and let the fans discuss how shitty Tate is/was.
RE: I’ll never understand  
lax counsel : 3/7/2021 1:37 pm : link
In comment 15168428 MyNameIsMyName said:
Quote:
Why you guys waste time with people like FMIC. It’s obvious he’s on here to insult people, and try to piss you off. Just ignore him


Wow this thread predictably devolved. I agree with you 100%, and adamg as well. The moderators started this site and can choose to enforce bans however they please. For whatever reason this particular poster is beyond reproach, but it doesn’t matter , simply ignore the posts. I took the advice of a long time poster -thank you, by the way- and ignored this poster after a particularly nasty thread in October, it’s made the forum experience much more enjoyed.

The vast majority of posters on this forum are an enjoyable read, and bring a diverse experience of football knowledge to the board, and are generally wonderful to interact with whether we agree or disagree on the state of the franchise, without it devolving into ad hominem attacks or profanity laced tirades. To the advice and simply ignore.
RE: RE: Oh christ another thread destroyed by FMiC  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/7/2021 1:41 pm : link
In comment 15168692 Saquads26 said:
Quote:
In comment 15168678 .McL. said:


Quote:


Why don't the moderators ever ban him?

He has most certainly crossed the line with regards to the terms here on many occasions and much more egregiously so than others who have been banned.

Why is he given special treatment?
Mods? Anything you would care to to explain?



Why ban him when he's nothing but entertainment.

Denny, pipe down before this handle gets banned just like all of your previous ones.
RE: Because he’s toxic and rarely talks about football?  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/7/2021 1:43 pm : link
In comment 15168717 cosmicj said:
Quote:
I’ve actually become practiced at scrolling quickly through threads where FMIC gets into one of his flame wars to actually get to posts which have information or thoughts about the actual topic. Practiced because I have to do it so frequently.

From here on out, just ask FMIC how the Wentz trade had anything to do with analytics and he'll disappear from that thread permanently. It's a surefire method.
Fun thread  
KWALL2 : 3/7/2021 1:57 pm : link
Can’t we just celebrate finally dumping this guy?

Terrible signing. Wasn’t the type of player a bottom of the league team should sign and the price was ridiculous. Made no sense at the time. None. Fading player, not wanted back by the team that just traded for him, & gets overpaid by bottom feeder team. It was the type of move WAS made for years and kept them in the basement.

The reaction when we signed him was mixed. But it’s clear. This was a huge mistake. Thread below.
Tate signed by NY! - ( New Window )
Going through that old thread  
Go Terps : 3/7/2021 2:10 pm : link
I had Tate wrong. I don't think he played badly here (I think he's made Jones look good on some plays), but it clearly wasn't worth it.
RE: Going through that old thread  
Sean : 3/7/2021 2:23 pm : link
In comment 15168877 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I had Tate wrong. I don't think he played badly here (I think he's made Jones look good on some plays), but it clearly wasn't worth it.


It never led to another move. Tate + Shepard never made sense, in reading that thread a lot of people figured Shep would get moved. Instead, he was signed a few weeks later.
Going down memory-lane threads on BBI is usually all the same  
Jimmy Googs : 3/7/2021 2:27 pm : link
10% of the posters that get it right,
10% of the posters that get it kind of wrong, and

80% of the posters that get it completely wrong...

3 months later  
KWALL2 : 3/7/2021 2:34 pm : link
The enthusiasm grows for Tate.. 😟
Giants WRs in 2019 - ( New Window )
RE: Fun thread  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/7/2021 2:37 pm : link
In comment 15168871 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
Can’t we just celebrate finally dumping this guy?

Terrible signing. Wasn’t the type of player a bottom of the league team should sign and the price was ridiculous. Made no sense at the time. None. Fading player, not wanted back by the team that just traded for him, & gets overpaid by bottom feeder team. It was the type of move WAS made for years and kept them in the basement.

The reaction when we signed him was mixed. But it’s clear. This was a huge mistake. Thread below. Tate signed by NY! - ( New Window )

Whoa, whoa, whoa... are you really gonna knock anyone's WR projections?

Should we sign Kevin White based on your crusty BVDs?
RE: Fun thread  
Matt M. : 3/7/2021 2:37 pm : link
In comment 15168871 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
Can’t we just celebrate finally dumping this guy?

Terrible signing. Wasn’t the type of player a bottom of the league team should sign and the price was ridiculous. Made no sense at the time. None. Fading player, not wanted back by the team that just traded for him, & gets overpaid by bottom feeder team. It was the type of move WAS made for years and kept them in the basement.

The reaction when we signed him was mixed. But it’s clear. This was a huge mistake. Thread below. Tate signed by NY! - ( New Window )
I know when they made the deal, I was not in love with it, but not against it. But, they made the deal for the wrong reasons and that contributed to why they paid him as much. They just traded OBJ so they wanted to say, look we replaced him. That was a ridiculous notion.

I will also say, I soured on him and this deal before he ever suited up. His 4 game suspension was a joke. His story, as more and more details came out, became less and less believable. But, if it was true, I find it hard to believe the Giants knew nothing. Even if not true, I still find it hard to believe the Giants knew nothing. That fiasco pissed me off and was embarrassing for the organization.
RE: 3 months later  
Jimmy Googs : 3/7/2021 2:39 pm : link
In comment 15168905 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
The enthusiasm grows for Tate.. 😟 Giants WRs in 2019 - ( New Window )


This one was funny, especially the posts from you know who...
RE: RE: Fun thread  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/7/2021 2:40 pm : link
In comment 15168908 Matt M. said:
Quote:
In comment 15168871 KWALL2 said:


Quote:


Can’t we just celebrate finally dumping this guy?

Terrible signing. Wasn’t the type of player a bottom of the league team should sign and the price was ridiculous. Made no sense at the time. None. Fading player, not wanted back by the team that just traded for him, & gets overpaid by bottom feeder team. It was the type of move WAS made for years and kept them in the basement.

The reaction when we signed him was mixed. But it’s clear. This was a huge mistake. Thread below. Tate signed by NY! - ( New Window )

I know when they made the deal, I was not in love with it, but not against it. But, they made the deal for the wrong reasons and that contributed to why they paid him as much. They just traded OBJ so they wanted to say, look we replaced him. That was a ridiculous notion.

I will also say, I soured on him and this deal before he ever suited up. His 4 game suspension was a joke. His story, as more and more details came out, became less and less believable. But, if it was true, I find it hard to believe the Giants knew nothing. Even if not true, I still find it hard to believe the Giants knew nothing. That fiasco pissed me off and was embarrassing for the organization.

It shouldn't have required that much time to realize that Take was a liar about his PED test. The drug he tested positive for is a FEMALE fertility drug, not male. Which meant all along that it was a masking agent.

He thought everyone else was stupid.
I had no problem bringing Tate in...  
bw in dc : 3/7/2021 2:49 pm : link
The contract looks poor in hindsight; but, like Terps, I think Tate's play was more a reflection of the circumstances - i.e. Jones - than Tate falling off a cliff.
Kevin White?  
KWALL2 : 3/7/2021 2:50 pm : link
LOL. Try again. This is where a guy like you brings up Coleman. White isn’t me. You got that wrong.

But sure, I would have signed White over Tate and then used that $23 million on a younger player.
RE: RE: RE: Fun thread  
Matt M. : 3/7/2021 2:52 pm : link
In comment 15168911 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15168908 Matt M. said:


Quote:


In comment 15168871 KWALL2 said:


Quote:


Can’t we just celebrate finally dumping this guy?

Terrible signing. Wasn’t the type of player a bottom of the league team should sign and the price was ridiculous. Made no sense at the time. None. Fading player, not wanted back by the team that just traded for him, & gets overpaid by bottom feeder team. It was the type of move WAS made for years and kept them in the basement.

The reaction when we signed him was mixed. But it’s clear. This was a huge mistake. Thread below. Tate signed by NY! - ( New Window )

I know when they made the deal, I was not in love with it, but not against it. But, they made the deal for the wrong reasons and that contributed to why they paid him as much. They just traded OBJ so they wanted to say, look we replaced him. That was a ridiculous notion.

I will also say, I soured on him and this deal before he ever suited up. His 4 game suspension was a joke. His story, as more and more details came out, became less and less believable. But, if it was true, I find it hard to believe the Giants knew nothing. Even if not true, I still find it hard to believe the Giants knew nothing. That fiasco pissed me off and was embarrassing for the organization.


It shouldn't have required that much time to realize that Take was a liar about his PED test. The drug he tested positive for is a FEMALE fertility drug, not male. Which meant all along that it was a masking agent.

He thought everyone else was stupid.
As I said, the more details that came out, the more ridiculous it sounded. Even at his first recounting of the tale, he was just months off of having his 2nd child in a few years, and fertility didn't appear to be an issue. But, on the surface, it's the kind of story that nobody wants to question because nobody knows what's going on with them. But, they more he dug in and the more we learned about him, his wife, and the test, the more obvious it became that it was a farce...and that is really the case with almost every PED story from athletes. Like I said, if it was true, it is something the Giants should have known and likely would have known, as would the league. If not true, it's still something that probably should have been known, but certainly shouldn't have been accepted or covered up.
Jordan Ranaan  
Go Terps : 3/7/2021 2:58 pm : link
Ranaan revealed on his podcast that at the end of the 2019 season Tate had his golf clubs at his locker. Great look.
RE: 3 months later  
christian : 3/7/2021 3:20 pm : link
In comment 15168905 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
The enthusiasm grows for Tate.. 😟 Giants WRs in 2019 - ( New Window )


There are a number of posts from that offseason on how fine the Giants skill position players would be in the passing game.

The crazy thing is Slayton emerged as a 750 yard/15 YPC out of obscurity, and the passing game still sucks.
Slayton was the only bright spot in 2019  
KWALL2 : 3/7/2021 3:48 pm : link
And we spent a ton of cash to put this sorry unit together.



We were top of the league at this position. Top of the league in $ spent at WR.
RE: RE: I’ll never understand  
.McL. : 3/7/2021 6:39 pm : link
In comment 15168853 lax counsel said:
Quote:
In comment 15168428 MyNameIsMyName said:


Quote:


Why you guys waste time with people like FMIC. It’s obvious he’s on here to insult people, and try to piss you off. Just ignore him



Wow this thread predictably devolved. I agree with you 100%, and adamg as well. The moderators started this site and can choose to enforce bans however they please. For whatever reason this particular poster is beyond reproach, but it doesn’t matter , simply ignore the posts. I took the advice of a long time poster -thank you, by the way- and ignored this poster after a particularly nasty thread in October, it’s made the forum experience much more enjoyed.

The vast majority of posters on this forum are an enjoyable read, and bring a diverse experience of football knowledge to the board, and are generally wonderful to interact with whether we agree or disagree on the state of the franchise, without it devolving into ad hominem attacks or profanity laced tirades. To the advice and simply ignore.

lax and MyName, I agree with you both. I have generally stopped interacting with him.

That said, he still derails threads on an almost daily basis, and he does so in ways that violate the terms of the site. Can there be any doubt that he regularly violates the first, second and last bullet point of these terms? I still want to know why the Mods keep giving him a pass?

BBI Terms Of Use
Quote:

Use of The Corner Forum:

BBI‘s The Corner Forum (The Forum) is an electronic bulletin board for exchanging information and opinions related to the New York Giants. Those who wish to post such information must respect others in the thoughts they express and the words they choose to express them and must otherwise comply with this BBI “Terms of Use; Disclaimer of Liability” policy.

You must be age 14 or over, or have parental permission, to register for an account on this site. If you are a consenting parent or guardian of a child, you agree to discuss this “Terms of Use; Disclaimer of Liability” policy, the BBI Privacy Policy, and general internet use and safety issues with the child. Children and adults should NEVER provide real names, addresses, telephone numbers, or other personally identifiable information when posting on a public internet forum.

You agree to use The Forum only to post messages and material that are proper. By way of example, and not as a limitation, you agree that when using The Forum, you will not distribute, upload, link to, or publish anything that:

is defamatory, libelous, pornographic, obscene, abusive, threatening, stalking, or harassing;
promotes hatred
, violence, or illegal conduct;
infringes upon copyrights or trademarks;
violates any law or regulation;
violates the rights of another person (such as rights of privacy);
displays a representation of a site visitor without their express written permission;
creates a false identity for the purpose of misleading others;
promotes or uses surveys, contests, pyramid schemes, chain letters, junk e-mail, spamming, charities, ticket sales, or any commercial messages;
restricts or inhibits any other user from using and enjoying BBI;
is politically or religiously partisan;
disrupts the community atmosphere on the website (see the BBI Code of Conduct).
Talking about it  
Matt M. : 3/7/2021 6:42 pm : link
is equally responsible for derailing threads.
Back on track - Regarding Tate  
.McL. : 3/7/2021 6:57 pm : link
I can see I didn't participate in either of those threads posted. There must have been others because I know I posted a similar sentiment as others have here. I thought it was a reactionary signing to appease the fanbase for the OBJ trade. Just like 2018 was a reaction to the benching of Eli. Reacting to the whims of the masses is a bad way to try to run a winning football team.

It was always a bad idea to sign a player of Tate's age to a contract of that size ($37.5M), length (4yrs), and guaranteed dollars ($23M).

And Matt M. - My apologies, I just felt that the terms he violates needed to be specifically highlighted so nobody has any doubt. I will stop now.
RE: Jordan Ranaan  
Ten Ton Hammer : 3/7/2021 7:13 pm : link
In comment 15168922 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Ranaan revealed on his podcast that at the end of the 2019 season Tate had his golf clubs at his locker. Great look.



"Culture" signing.
...  
christian : 3/7/2021 7:17 pm : link
The Giants were so aware of his PED use, there was a clause to negate guaranteed money in his deal. Is that normal? I pay pretty decent attention to contracts, and I’d never heard of that.
McL  
cosmicj : 3/7/2021 7:27 pm : link
Back to BBI conduct, the terms “defamatory” and “disrupts” the community atmosphere are subject to interpretation. You maybe saw my post above where I asked the mods whether they had a more precise set of standards that they used among themselves to judge problematic behavior. I think those precise standards are needed, because I am seeing occasional behavior by long-time posters that would get a newbie banned. We need more “rule of law” and less “rule of man.”

And to all my fellow BBIers, I want to say that almost al, of the best posters here literally never - and I mean never- resort to personal attacks. So it can be done.
It’s not like we paid him like a top 5 WR.  
KWALL2 : 3/7/2021 7:31 pm : link


Over the 2 years....  
KWALL2 : 3/7/2021 7:32 pm : link
Only 15 WRs made more.

RE: It’s not like we paid him like a top 5 WR.  
.McL. : 3/7/2021 7:43 pm : link
In comment 15169096 KWALL2 said:
Quote:


LOL, well played.
RE: McL  
.McL. : 3/7/2021 7:44 pm : link
In comment 15169093 cosmicj said:
Quote:
Back to BBI conduct, the terms “defamatory” and “disrupts” the community atmosphere are subject to interpretation. You maybe saw my post above where I asked the mods whether they had a more precise set of standards that they used among themselves to judge problematic behavior. I think those precise standards are needed, because I am seeing occasional behavior by long-time posters that would get a newbie banned. We need more “rule of law” and less “rule of man.”

And to all my fellow BBIers, I want to say that almost al, of the best posters here literally never - and I mean never- resort to personal attacks. So it can be done.

Good points!
Eh  
Bill2 : 3/7/2021 7:59 pm : link
Imo, I observe for a long time a lot of sly and nasty provocation from everyone.

Then a retreat to a noble pulpit.

It's become a cesspool swirl while pretending we and our inability to acknowledge out own bad takes and misbegotten arguments had nothing to do with it and we certainly don't keep it going.

Protesting too loudly and after the fact is a dead giveaway to hyper-competitive hyper-sensitives who love to toss buckets of old fish instead of taking charge of themselves.

I was part of it and by dint of this post not yet as distant and disciplined as I hope to be in the future.

If you don't like it McL...then just don't play. You are not an innocent. Nor am I. So if we are above it as we claim - let's both t prove it.

Deal?

.  
Bill2 : 3/7/2021 8:02 pm : link
Sorry for the typos and spelling. Cramped position to post from.
RE: Eh  
.McL. : 3/7/2021 9:05 pm : link
In comment 15169130 Bill2 said:
Quote:
Imo, I observe for a long time a lot of sly and nasty provocation from everyone.

Then a retreat to a noble pulpit.

It's become a cesspool swirl while pretending we and our inability to acknowledge out own bad takes and misbegotten arguments had nothing to do with it and we certainly don't keep it going.

Protesting too loudly and after the fact is a dead giveaway to hyper-competitive hyper-sensitives who love to toss buckets of old fish instead of taking charge of themselves.

I was part of it and by dint of this post not yet as distant and disciplined as I hope to be in the future.

If you don't like it McL...then just don't play. You are not an innocent. Nor am I. So if we are above it as we claim - let's both t prove it.

Deal?

Bill2,

In general I agree with what you are suggestion, but I do have some caveats.

I believe it is a valid for any society/community to debate the laws that govern them. Furthermore, to expect that those laws are enforced equally. It is the responsibility of every member of a community to ensure that the laws are just, and fairly enforced, and to call it out when they are not. It is irresponsible to just hide your head in the sand, and expect somebody else to take care of the problem. You have often defended FMiC sometimes directly, often indirectly as you have in this post. My question to you is why? Do you condone his behavior? Do you wish to perpetuate it it? You are not just responsible for you own behavior, by defending him as you have, you become responsible for his, and the resulting fallout, is that what you wish? I realize that you have known him for quite some time, and met him in person, so you may have some personal collegiality with him and that represents a conflict for you. But consider his behavior more dispassionately, is this what you want?

I agree with you, that the most important thing we can do is be responsible with our own behaviors, and set a good example. I promise to do my best...
I will admit that I have had some unpleasant interactions with him in the past (and I admit that I set him up and baited him more than once). I did so with a purpose in mind. And although my father always said that the road to hell is paved with good intentions, I will not apologize for my purpose. That purpose has been largely fulfilled, as such I rarely if ever interact with him anymore. I will take responsibility and apologize to the board for any of the unpleasantness that I may have caused with the means I took toward that purpose. You will have not seen me post in that manner in quite some time, now will see it going forward.

That said, it is still a valid topic of debate as to what the rules are for board, and how are they enforced. Many people didn't like the ban on political speech, but it made the site better. We need something similar, i.e. more clear cut here as well. While I don't want to make this site boring, I think the vast majority can agree that there are somethings we would all rather not see on the board, and that when transgression occur, that the enforcement is done without prejudice. Part of doing my best will continue to be responsible not just for my own behaviors, but to fulfill my responsibility to this and any community to which I belong. At times that may be to bring up topics of debate such as this, even if it causes short term unpleasantness for some, but hopefully leads to a better outcome.

Deal?
*nor* will you going forward  
.McL. : 3/7/2021 9:07 pm : link
.
One thing I would like to add  
.McL. : 3/7/2021 9:14 pm : link
is that some of the fallout from his behavior was that there were some posters who tried to copy his style.

Maybe I am kidding myself, but, it seems to me that in recent months, there have been much fewer copycat FMiCs on the board. And the site has benefited.
Once again, your focus is on FMIC  
Bill2 : 3/7/2021 10:05 pm : link
You have "good reasons" and he does not. ( may even be true but it is a flaw to be a good analyst and not humble to consider the biggest variable is us and we are the last to know what we most need to know.

Lets face it, in your last post, you defended your self ( adding a layer of paint to the walls) and blamed the other guy. In the post before you continued your campaign ( no one was talking to you about this until you interjected the same narrative of 50-100 posts unasked) to drive away and rally the shame down on another poster ( I dont care whose to blame and who started it and whose worse...im a member of a site trying to find utility while tossing junk out of the way to see if there is any there. For the record, I talk to you and not him only because I assumed you could eventually see better. That's the only reason) while trying to "appear" fair and judicious.

Its hypocrisy. Face it. Some of the years back posts were a mix of huge suppositions and assumptions with a veneer of "mathyiness". You wanted credit for your credentials and no questioning of the almost magical thinking aspects of your posts. He did not do that and saw through some huge holes in thinking and self awarded certainty. (I also tried to point these things out to you back then), He called you out as if you were just another poster ( part of the worlds current disdain of "expertise"??). Like all of us, you didnt like it.

I dont know whats in your head or his. Maybe you each are as noble and honorable in your own minds as you claim. In my experience humans often are blind to anything less than being honorable or justified in their own minds exactly when they do the same thing in slightly different guises ( perhaps by now, maybe you and others have long since ridiculed him more or equal to the other way around? ).

I know that you will always assume I am defending FMIC. ( I think its part of being at ease with magical thinking and partially just plain easy to attack the motivations of the other guys and not stop and think if the message has truth in it) Im not. I do think he truly knows he is unfair to you and now enjoys insulting you when he calls you out. I dont think you do when you do the same. I dont think you acknowledge some of your posts deserve and deserved critique.

Its a critique of supposition/assumptions based site. You do it to others. They do it to you. You ridicule other posters and points of view as if they are trash. The same is done to you. Cutting by arch raised eyebrows is a slick version of blunt force directness. As you well know. As I well know.

Its a bad site McL. The recent record of the team and the combinations of posters who self identify as a sub-team have produced some bad years on the site and some good ones.

Want proof? Track which posters dont post the week after a victory and which ones re appear after a loss. And precisely vice versa.

Unfortunately, I dont wish to continue for I get nowhere when I talk to you and neither does anyone else.

Why dont you reach out in private and just email FMIC? Oh, because all communication would selectively be used against the other guy? Is that the site? Or him? Or both of your proven track records of hitting below the belt past the point of being trustworthy?

My main point is that both...both... you guys look and are acting in ways that pull the site and reduce interest in what you do/can contribute. Thats a shame.

If you want the other guy to stop...then you stop renting out mental shelf space and taking your shots. Then and only then do you have a non whataboutism case that its him and not an age old swirl. Then go to the mods. If I were a mod (never happen) id say a pox on both your houses. Until that changes it wont change.

Hope it does because I think you both can make good contributions on different NYG topics but imo 50% is up to you.

Good night. Take care.
Make no mistake  
Bill2 : 3/7/2021 10:14 pm : link
the posters who copy his style are way off the mark of how to help the site get better.

Are you brushing all who question your posts ( you do know that your posts are not you (none of us know you and vice versa...just your words as we understand your posts)?) but what your line of "reasoning" in a post was???) with that allegation in lieu of fatigue some have with the constant bashing without balance? Or do we have a growing set of FMIC-alikes?

I dont follow the threads and some posters well enough to know that.

What I do know is that I come here less often, spend less hours here than ever and slowly think I do better not being here
One other thing I notice about this version of BBI  
Bill2 : 3/7/2021 10:24 pm : link
Folks quickly assign other posters to the other "team" if they say even one thing that deviates from the "team" storylines.

Its become a lot of bullshit and I dont know how to post with out contributing to it. So dropping out until some posters get exhausted or the team begins to move forward ( equally exhausting to watch and hope for) seems the only answer for me. Just imo
FMIC is a unique character on BBI  
KWALL2 : 3/7/2021 10:27 pm : link
We have copy cats? I don’t follow it enough to see it. Is this new? Who are there posters?

FMIC rips on me all of the time. Often with lazy work such as the ‘he ain’t from Rutgers’ routine. But, oddly, I like what he bring to BBI.
RE: Back on track - Regarding Tate  
Matt M. : 3/7/2021 10:42 pm : link
In comment 15169065 .McL. said:
Quote:
I can see I didn't participate in either of those threads posted. There must have been others because I know I posted a similar sentiment as others have here. I thought it was a reactionary signing to appease the fanbase for the OBJ trade. Just like 2018 was a reaction to the benching of Eli. Reacting to the whims of the masses is a bad way to try to run a winning football team.

It was always a bad idea to sign a player of Tate's age to a contract of that size ($37.5M), length (4yrs), and guaranteed dollars ($23M).

And Matt M. - My apologies, I just felt that the terms he violates needed to be specifically highlighted so nobody has any doubt. I will stop now.
Believe me, that wasn't directed just at you. It was a general statement.
I certainly understand in cases of mutual violation of the terms of  
NoGainDayne : 3/7/2021 11:15 pm : link
use why talking in degrees and severity is a fruitless endeavor but if someone is always throwing garbage on the floor of your lobby would you just say oh just ignore that person, he will stop throwing the garbage.

So too FMiC and his verbal garbage. And there is zero, zero evidence that he will stop throwing garbage up on this site just because he is ignored. Zero evidence he's wired that way at all.

On this thread, he's been abusive, he's cursed. He's told outright lies. He revealed a personal fact about my relative being a lawyer (something he really shouldn't know) and then when he found out it was my father promptly decided to suggest he "might" be a terrible lawyer.

The first time I reached out to the site about him I did say he was lying about me, I did say it was slander. I cited the specific thing and I sent information to prove he was lying. I did not threaten to sue in any way shape or form. I just asked something to be done to curb his lying. I'm not sure where the obsession over if it was literal slander or not comes from because I very much did not threaten to sue.

The second time I did threaten to sue IF he revealed my full name, he had revealed my first name and made a threatening comment. Something that I think absolutely deserves an apology given that he did in fact reveal my first name and that is an extreme step.

Besides, how does he have any idea what I said? Was he shown my communications with the site owner? Not sure why he's allowed to lie. Not sure why he's allowed to be so abusive.

I've actually apologized a few times for my conduct because I heard the feedback from other posters. bill, you and I have had our times where things have been more strained and I think we both took steps to see each others perspectives and meet in the middle. Why is he allowed to just never show any remorse, never show any effort to be less abusive. Be allowed to lie? The first time I went to the site it was because he lied about me, he has no problem lying. I just don't understand how this particular thing could possibly be allowed.

Could my behavior on this site have been much better? Absolutely. But on this thread, I've tried to be a different person than I have been. I haven't violated any of the sites terms. We are just supposed to watch this person throw garbage around? Does anyone actually believe he would stop if ignored?

I was genuinely trying to see if I remained grounded in facts on this thread, remain calm, things might go differently. I've tried many different approaches with him, there have been long periods where I ignored him but on the day let loose my first name, I wasn't having a very good day. Is this really what is being asked of people here, that he just sling crap at us day after day without us having a human moment where we sling it back?

What about new people coming to the site? Younger people? Does he come with a warning label? Not one I've seen.

I actually do care about this community a lot which is why I specifically said in the email where he revealed my first name that I did NOT want to do anything. But I was very concerned that he was going to just post my name on the internet which along with other things he's been willing to say about me feels very dangerous.

As GD said, I think everyone else on this site is willing to eat their crow when they are told they are in the wrong. And I'm willing to hear that it's not worth it for anyone for me to make any attempts to stand up for myself, or anyone to stand up for the community he has no problem polluting.

Irrespective of him, I'm not sure a strategy of ignoring problematic behavior is ever even remotely as effective as active steps to curb that behavior. A bit ponderous why people are acting like that will work but unlike him, I'd be willing to try anything to make the verbal littering stop
Bill2  
.McL. : 3/8/2021 12:56 am : link
Apparently I touched a nerve. I forced you to question your own positions. As you often do to others, me included (nothing wrong with that). I don't know all your motivations or goals. I do know that you have met FMiC in person and shared beers with him (at least both of you have said such). Knowing somebody face to face changes things. It makes it more difficult to behave badly toward that person, it also make it more difficult to call them out when you know you should. Perhaps there are other things at play, for all I know there are extenuating circumstances with regards to this person. I would not know, I have never met him.

I will say that, I noticed you didn't address the meat of my response, that we all have a responsibility greater than ourselves. You and I differ on how to approach certain problems. We have different skill sets. There are some skill sets that I am all too acutely aware that I lack. The gentle art of persuasion is one of them. Instead of addressing that, you chose to mostly get angry with me (calling my posts "magical thinking with a veneer mathiyness" appear to be meant as a slight) and engaged in the exact behavior for which you are supposedly calling me out. Questioning the rules here and how they are applied is not the same. I have long been bothered by some bannings that seemed arbitrary and didn't seem to deserve it, and others who continually cross the line without consequences. I still believe that question is fair game, even if it applies to somebody with whom you have a personal and collegial relationship.

Also, I must point out, that I am self aware. I take responsibility for my actions. In this case, if my posts bring a pox on me so be it. I will accept those consequences. I try to do what I can to make BBI a better place. If the community doesn't like it, if I am to be shunned, banned, so be it, life goes on, I tried my best. I try not to partake in the tribalist culture (although my opinions often but not always align with one of the tribes here, as do yours). I state my opinion and move on.

I agree with you, that our world and not just BBI has devolved into tribal wars. For that, we are all the worse off for it. And yes, I have noticed who posts after victories and after losses. You will notice, that I will post after both.

Lets be clear, this is a fan site. None of us have all the information, some here may be more expert about football and may have more information than others, but none of us are fully expert in the details that go into ever aspect of a football team. None of us are privileged with the level of inside information that the people running the team have. As such, we post our opinions and we debate them. Opinions are not magical thinking. They are simply opinions. Some opinions can be supported, others not so much. I try to provide supporting information along with my opinions. I am more than willing to debate my opinions. I am more than willing to debate the supporting information. I am willing to be shown a better opinion. Many have on this board have been able to change my mind. In general, I do not attack others for their opinion. I may question the opinion, I may offer an alternative, I may provide evidence that refutes the opinion. But I don't attack for holding an opinion. In fact, I often bow out of debates when posters start piling on somebody even when they have an opinion I disagree with. I have even posted suggestions at times that folks back off even when I disagree with the OP. What I am not willing to do is to suffer ad hominem attacks. I think you will be hard pressed to find me posting such attacks other than with this one poster. There may have been a few other occasions, mostly when the post has leveled such attacks at me. I agree we should try to stay above it, but sometimes in the heat of the moment we post without fully thinking it through. I am not perfect. But ad hominem attacks are not debate and they often violate the terms of the site. I have spent significant time debating topics with you. You know that I am open to debate. In fact you are one of the posters who has changed my mind at times. Even if my mind changes, it is still all just opinion. We would all do well to keep that in mind.

As for my behavior. We are all at times hypocritical, we all make mistakes, the best we can do is to minimize it. I have admitted that I dealt with FMiC in a less than seemly manner. I can accept you calling me a hypocrite for that. It is not something I do regularly. I made an exception to achieve a goal. Admittedly my methods were poor. As I said, I am not good at gentle persuasion. I am willing to live with the consequences... If that means some people dislike me, or even if I am banned, I can live with that.
RE: FMIC is a unique character on BBI  
.McL. : 3/8/2021 2:22 am : link
In comment 15169229 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
We have copy cats? I don’t follow it enough to see it. Is this new? Who are there posters?

FMIC rips on me all of the time. Often with lazy work such as the ‘he ain’t from Rutgers’ routine. But, oddly, I like what he bring to BBI.

Lets just say there were some who tried to copy his style...

Also, I want to be clear, not all of what FMiC does is bad. The site needs people who are willing to call out the dumb and the BS. Just not the way he does it. And it doesn't have to be gentle, just not personal, obscene and/or harassing.
Bill2, or anybody else for that matter  
.McL. : 3/8/2021 2:50 am : link
If you want to contact me privately, I have an old alias email account I created to protect my identity for social media. Haven't used or checked it in years, but i just verified that it still works.

jacklachemann@yahoo.com
.  
Bill2 : 3/8/2021 2:55 am : link
Good post and fair post McL.

Again, now re read all the posts and our experiences with the idea that sometimes a person does say the truth.

I talk to you because I am rooting for you to grasp the opposing possibility.

If you think I would take up the cause of FMIC behavior in a scrum or your behavior in a scrum I don't know what to tell you...you are both fighting and reduced for it. One with a stiletto complaining about the other guy using a mallet. Do you seriously think anyone here for awhile hasn't seen a ridiculous internet fight that just gets in every one else's way?

Usually there are three options:

One is walking away 100% of the time.

The other is sending a direct confidential email via the mods and being blunt in your request that it stops.

One is a post committing to stop talking if the other guy will.

Talking to the site and rallying others to the your side without trying the man to man communication or deciding it isn't worth it just tells us who is trying to use a stiletto .

Trying to turn the discussion to my motivation is continuing to be more interested in being self righteous about fighting with FMIC than ending it by vacuum or direct deal with him.

After attempting direct conversation or making a commitment to stop, then it's fair to run for office from the wooden steps of every tavern. Worked for many a President for 100 years.

FMIC has refused to stop so far. So have you refused to end what is in your power to end.. So current tactics are not working. All I'm asking is for the more flexible and stronger poster to try another way to bring this to an end.

I know I can walk away from posting with anyone here and the site in total. So far, neither of you can.

At some point wasting time in an obsession on the internet just wastes other people's time. Internet fighting is not a fight won on points. Its won by stopping.

That's my protest. I think you can settle this with honor àbd he can't. Settling it by trying to win by debating points or appeals to the audience isn't working. Time for trying new ways to win?

Thanks.

Two things Bill  
.McL. : 3/8/2021 3:47 am : link
First, when was the last time you saw me directly interact with FMiC? It has been many months. In general I have walked away from him. However, I have not walked away from doing what I can to make BBI a better place. Unfortunately, that goal often crosses his path for obvious reasons. I don't interact with him directly. My appeal has been more to the site, as it was on this thread. I didn't direct my original post to him. I directed to the Mods. I haven't partaken in the back and forth with him.

Second, you are kidding yourself if you think I have not tried the other avenues with which you listed. I did have a conversation with Mods to get their take on things. More generally, not specifically him. If you care to know about that conversation, I will discuss it with you privately. I also made attempts to appeal to the rest of the board, in years past. That is in large part where my powers of persuasion failed me. The only item on your list that I did not try was a private conversation with him, which I know would never amount to anything, and I didn't want him to know my real identity anyway. I have always been a private person, and cautious about revealing myself online, however, there are others on this board who have threatened me physically as well. So I think you can understand my desire to remain private. It is only just today that I decided to check and see if that old account from 15 years ago still worked. Other than that, all my other email account would divulge my identity.
One more point  
.McL. : 3/8/2021 3:57 am : link
As I said, I do not interact with him anymore, in case you haven't noticed. Whether I interact with him or not, he still destroys thread after thread fighting with everybody. I does become tiresome. So I am not sure what else you are expecting me to end. I don't talk to him, I don't bait him, and yet here we are, he still behaves the way he behaves. Why is it that we all have to just put up with him? Unless there are consequences for him, I believe he will continue to fight all the time and make the site all the worse for rest of us.

I'm sorry, the issue goes beyond just me and my interactions with him in the past. Believe me, I understand what you have been trying to say to me for quite some time. I got it long ago. Me ignoring him doesn't solve the problem. It may make a few posters like yourself feel a little about about me, but it fails to make the site better.
To FMiC  
.McL. : 3/8/2021 5:03 am : link
You have an email address with which to reach me if you choose to do so.

I will make you a deal. I have appealed to you directly in the pas, but I will try one more time.

For my part, I will not single you out in any of my posts. I won't as Bill2 put it, try to "rally the site to my side". However, this promise does not extend to me trying to publicly pressure the Mods into enforcing the terms of the site more fairly. But I won't use you as the example.

For your part, please, please, please, stop fighting so much with everybody. I don't expect you to stop completely. What's more is that calling out some of the dumb BS is a service you provide to the board. But please, limit yourself, try to bow out of the back and forth gracefully after 2 or 3 posts. Also, it's ok to call out the dumb, but try not to intimidate every new poster off the site. The rest of the site does that well enough already.

In addition, to the rest of the site. Bill is right, we have become too tribal. Often depending who is online, one or a small group of posters will get targeted by many. Both tribes do this. If there is too much back and forth, with many against one or two, it might be a good time to lighten up or even back away. If at any point you feel the need to say something personal and nasty, perhaps that is also time to step away. I have made this appeal to the board before and was thoroughly ridiculed, which is fine. I don't expect to reach everybody, if my words here do appeal to the better angels in any of us though, the site will be better for it. We should all feel alarmed when a poster like Bill2 is saying that he is choosing to spend less time here. We all need to look to ourselves and what we can do to make this community better.
McL  
Bill2 : 3/8/2021 5:42 am : link
Surely you know that appealing to the Mods in this situation is war by other means? The guy you claim to be walking away from gets to see you trying to get him banned and is supposed to not respond because you claim you only addressed the Mods?

Who is trying to kid who with that one? "I was trying to get a guy banned by addressing the Mods in my posts. Pretty personal assaults but that's not to be taken by him as me communicating. What who me? I don't talk to him anymore. I just want to make the site better."

Sorry i didn't fall off a turnip truck yesterday. That sounds like " I want my pound of flesh for being called out for the dumb parts of my posts while not being adored for the good posts"

Sounds like:

" After all, I alone should never be called out for my flawed thinking. I have papal immunity on internet sites". Now I'm not continuing it because my posts on the main site are really not supposed to be read by him when I claim to be rallying the site to write to the mods. See how he won't stop?

That important point about this noble contribution of yours aside, I do see your dilemma more clearly.

Maybe it's time to just silently ask the mods to intervene while you truly disengage for the years it takes for posters to notice the other guy has disengaged?

Sorry it just seems to take most posters that long on the internet. Funny to think one of us is allowed to be sensitive and have memories of past fights when the same handle talks about banning us. That's not to be taken as a sign of a very personal animus? That's not supposed to be read or replied to because you were really talking to the mods?

But I leave you to solve it as you see fit. You are a smart guy ànd I'm sure you can.

I hope FMIC sees all this and does his part.. I'm guessing the track record of trust the other guy will stop os pretty low (neither and both haven't stopped).

Over ànd out.

Sorry McL  
Bill2 : 3/8/2021 5:47 am : link
I was posting while you were.

I like your last post and thank you for trying.

Balls in your court FMIC.

I get how you got here FMIC, but maybe it's time??
Again  
Bill2 : 3/8/2021 5:49 am : link
Thank you McL
Bill2  
.McL. : 3/8/2021 6:21 am : link
I submit that you have completely misjudged me here. I am not claiming innocence. If fact when you hear me out, you may even decide that what I have done is worse. That said, I urge you to email me directly and I will tell you some things I am not willing to say publicly.
McL  
Bill2 : 3/8/2021 6:44 am : link
my mistake.

But I dont wish to get more drawn in. I wish to not hear, read or see more.

To me, this is all drama that gets in the way of a very interesting and important off season. Id rather see threads about Tate stay about Tate.
submitted  
Bill2 : 3/8/2021 6:45 am : link
with all due respect
So  
crick n NC : 3/8/2021 8:35 am : link
I shouldn't order my Tate Jersey?

Advice needed,
Thanks.
Well, looks like it's official:  
Britt in VA : 3/8/2021 8:41 am : link
.  
crick n NC : 3/8/2021 8:49 am : link
bill2, you've made a lot of good points on this thread  
NoGainDayne : 3/8/2021 3:41 pm : link
I'm going to think on reaching out to FMiC myself.

Not sure how much I could hope for understanding, but perhaps we can get somewhere on rules of engagement. I think it might be too late for that but I certainly see your point especially about the mods, where perhaps I haven't done enough to put forth legit olive branches in a more direct way without reaching for the stick.

I think it is an especially good point that sometimes people speak from a moral high ground when the hill they are standing on is inches above the one they are shouting "down" from. And even that perception of height differential could be measured at varying results depending on the individuals perspective.

RE: tribalism here and that there is too much in the world... We have way too much common ground for the sticks to outnumber the carrots as much as they do here sometimes. I do think it's worth saying that I appreciate that you and some others that might slant in the other "tribe" make efforts to agree on some shared truths. Especially for those who might just be reading the site, who might be less knowledgeable in some of the areas others are. When two sides are dealing in different truths we lose even a tenuous grasp on any kind of "truth" of value.

So I will thank you for that. For your efforts to find where we can agree, even when I've overreached in moments I'm not having my best thoughts. In moments when I think we both know there are things that you and others on this site have very real interpersonal feelings on that there isn't an equivalent of for me.

I'll also use this as an opportunity to thank posters like Sean, Eric in LI, Thegratefulhead, pjcas18, arc (RIP I guess?) and others who do a good job of holding onto civility even when on different sides of the debate and not necessarily receiving it. And JonC who always seems to find a way to come in with a perspective which is measured enough that is is hard to detect much of a slant.

Even ryanmkeane who I'm pretty sure could tell you it was a beautiful day completely soaked in rain has managed to keep things civil 100% of the time to the best of my knowledge.

Regardless, the point of this is I'm happy to commit a greater effort to reduce tribalism and civility even if that means toning down my pursuit of what I feel is "right." Even if it means a willingness to call out people more in my "tribe" if I see behavior that is not helping the quality of debates. And to anyone that may have given up on trying to find middle ground with me, I hope to change your minds.

I think the beauty of smaller communities is that while faced with all the same challenges of larger ones there are ways to handle those challenges better and I'm personally committed to being part of the solution here.

Should say reduce tribalism and INCREASE civility  
NoGainDayne : 3/8/2021 3:53 pm : link
lol sorry
NGD  
Bill2 : 3/8/2021 6:18 pm : link
good stuff
RE: McL  
BigBlueBuff : 3/9/2021 9:15 pm : link
In comment 15169093 cosmicj said:
Quote:
Back to BBI conduct, the terms “defamatory” and “disrupts” the community atmosphere are subject to interpretation. You maybe saw my post above where I asked the mods whether they had a more precise set of standards that they used among themselves to judge problematic behavior. I think those precise standards are needed, because I am seeing occasional behavior by long-time posters that would get a newbie banned. We need more “rule of law” and less “rule of man.”

And to all my fellow BBIers, I want to say that almost al, of the best posters here literally never - and I mean never- resort to personal attacks. So it can be done.

The worst part of it is that it spreads to everyone. I used to spend a part of every day on this website until one day a few years back I sent an email to Eric to delete my account. I had gone from a poster who wanted to learn and help others learn to a nasty, name calling jerk because that was the atmosphere and I adapted to fit in. I still only come on here once or twice a week at most because the toxic atmosphere is just brutal.
...  
christian : 3/9/2021 11:06 pm : link
BBB — I’ve always found you to be an enjoyable read on this site.

For what it’s worth, I think it’s important to only engage with folks who are looking to get the same thing out of BBI as I do. I’m looking to debate, learn, and enjoy chatting about football.

There are a select few folks on this site who seemingly revel in being rude, right, and controlling. It’s a strange place to flex that muscle in my view.
This topic..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 3/10/2021 7:26 am : link
usually ends up being a roll call of people claiming to take the high road. There are things I need to tone down and certain arguments I will let go.

But acting like this is a site where people are just looking to have a kumbaya and looking to learn from one another is a lot of empty air. Posters who want to do that wouldn't pose a topic by saying people are "cap deniers".

Posters wouldn't stand beside known dupes and trolls simply because they hold a similar position. What do they do? Band against posters who hold the opposing viewpoint. I hammer against the opposing viewpoint continually. Just own that.

That's why the high road is a lonely place. A lot of people look up and say they are taking it, but it's as empty as an express lane in Butte, Montana.
RE: To FMiC  
EricJ : 3/10/2021 8:40 am : link
In comment 15169268 .McL. said:
Quote:
Bill is right, we have become too tribal. Often depending who is online, one or a small group of posters will get targeted by many. Both tribes do this.


It is a good observation. It has become tribal and not very different than the tribal discussions we see around politics in other places like Facebook.

Once you pick "as side", somehow people have the inability to admit (ever) that the other side has a point. It is that way when discussing politics and also that way depending on whether you like Dave Gettleman for example.

So now we have people who look for ANY opportunity to bring their skewed point of view into a discussion that has nothing to do with that topic. The derailment of what starts as a good discussion ends up sounding like every other thread
RE: RE: To FMiC  
Matt M. : 3/10/2021 9:05 am : link
In comment 15171615 EricJ said:
Quote:
In comment 15169268 .McL. said:


Quote:


Bill is right, we have become too tribal. Often depending who is online, one or a small group of posters will get targeted by many. Both tribes do this.



It is a good observation. It has become tribal and not very different than the tribal discussions we see around politics in other places like Facebook.

Once you pick "as side", somehow people have the inability to admit (ever) that the other side has a point. It is that way when discussing politics and also that way depending on whether you like Dave Gettleman for example.

So now we have people who look for ANY opportunity to bring their skewed point of view into a discussion that has nothing to do with that topic. The derailment of what starts as a good discussion ends up sounding like every other thread
I can't get into the "tribal" debate because I honestly have no clue about and don't pay ateention to sides,dupe, etc. I just know I agree with that last point you made that whatever this dynamic is, most football threads quickly denigrate into the same pissing matches, which is why I spend significantly less time on BBI.
RE: This topic..  
christian : 3/10/2021 9:23 am : link
In comment 15171554 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
usually ends up being a roll call of people claiming to take the high road. There are things I need to tone down and certain arguments I will let go.

But acting like this is a site where people are just looking to have a kumbaya and looking to learn from one another is a lot of empty air. Posters who want to do that wouldn't pose a topic by saying people are "cap deniers".


That's second time you've brought that up, and for the second time I will remind you it's a joke between DJM and I -- that he got, laughed at, and we had a nice debate about on the thread. And furthermore, do you find that to be a sensibility offending comment?

Massive false equivalency between a pretty tepid joke and your behavior. Not in the same ballpark.

No one is looking for kumbaya. You conveniently left out the part about debate. That's the heart of what most people do on BBI, debate their points of view.
RE: Over the 2 years....  
djm : 3/10/2021 9:38 am : link
In comment 15169100 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
Only 15 WRs made more.


Yea, welcome to the world of UFA. Guys get paid when they are FA.

He's off the books now. We can all sleep well at night.
RE: RE: Over the 2 years....  
EricJ : 3/10/2021 9:46 am : link
In comment 15171662 djm said:
Quote:
In comment 15169100 KWALL2 said:


Quote:


Only 15 WRs made more.




Yea, welcome to the world of UFA. Guys get paid when they are FA.

He's off the books now. We can all sleep well at night.


Not only that, but when you need a player at a certain position, your choices are your choices at that moment during the off season. In fact, it is worse than that because what we do not see are the players who we wanted but we were outbid and the players who simply refused to come and play for a losing franchise.

Sometimes the free agent market is a lot like the toilet paper shelves during the pandemic. You may want Charmin but you are getting store brand and at that moment, you may be paying the Charmin price for it too due to supply and demand.
Djm  
KWALL2 : 3/10/2021 10:27 am : link
Quote:
Yea, welcome to the world of UFA. Guys get paid when they are FA.


Not your best.

Guys “get paid”? Yes. When you pay way too much for a guy like this the team suffers for years.

It was a terrible move and not just because of the money which was outrageous. Over 2 years he was paid like. #1 and he played like a role player (that he is).
Tate isn’t off the books  
NoGainDayne : 3/10/2021 10:35 am : link
we are eating dead money this year.

And there is a big difference in the toilet paper example. You buy bad toilet paper once it doesn’t increase the probability that you will need to buy bad toilet paper again.

Overpaying for free agents is a known major factor in a cycle of losing seasons. If the concern is that free agents don’t want to sign with your team because it isn’t good enough, the way out is drafting well not overpaying for FAs because your options are limited.
RE: RE: RE: Over the 2 years....  
Ten Ton Hammer : 3/10/2021 10:40 am : link
In comment 15171668 EricJ said:
Quote:


Sometimes the free agent market is a lot like the toilet paper shelves during the pandemic. You may want Charmin but you are getting store brand and at that moment, you may be paying the Charmin price for it too due to supply and demand.


I only partially agree with this. The need for a WR was self-inflicted. They made themselves desperate, and then overspent on that desperation

If your car dies, and you gotta get to work somehow, I'm not going to feel sorry for you if you bought a '94 Benz highly above value, and then you find yourself broke. Just because you or I can't immediately name an option out there as an alternative doesn't mean there wasnt one. They were desperate for wins and desperate to fill a significant roster hole, and what makes the move stink more is that they justified it as a better "culture" fit when the guy was and has been a knucklehead.
RE: RE: This topic..  
bw in dc : 3/10/2021 10:44 am : link
In comment 15171651 christian said:
Quote:


No one is looking for kumbaya. You conveniently left out the part about debate. That's the heart of what most people do on BBI, debate their points of view.


Exactly.

This is a debate site - largely - about the Giants. And if you are going to get into the debate circle - put your thoughts out there into this market of ideas - expect to get challenged. Sometimes those challenges are reasonable and high level. Sometimes that challenges are hard, uncomfortable and visceral.

But I've always accepted those terms and possibilities and simply manage around the different personalities and styles. And never take anything personally.

To me, watching posters resort to name calling and abuse is (usually) more a reflection on them than the target.
Bw  
crick n NC : 3/10/2021 11:22 am : link
I have always been impressed with your ability to not take comments personally here. You seem to easily let things go which isn't easy, especially for me.
RE: RE: RE: This topic..  
christian : 3/10/2021 11:22 am : link
In comment 15171776 bw in dc said:
Quote:
Exactly.

This is a debate site - largely - about the Giants. And if you are going to get into the debate circle - put your thoughts out there into this market of ideas - expect to get challenged. Sometimes those challenges are reasonable and high level. Sometimes that challenges are hard, uncomfortable and visceral.

But I've always accepted those terms and possibilities and simply manage around the different personalities and styles. And never take anything personally.

To me, watching posters resort to name calling and abuse is (usually) more a reflection on them than the target.


Couldn't agree more. It always comes down to why post here. I know exactly why I do. I enjoy debating and learning about football.

My guess rate isn't any better than anyone's. I'd like to think my opinions are typically factual, but even then I get my fair share wrong.

I don't mind the occasional ass kicking I've gotten over the years from posters like you, Bill2, Go Terps, Robbie, etc. guys I know for a fact know more about football than me.
I wonder how this thread would go  
crick n NC : 3/10/2021 11:30 am : link
If we have a couple of weak points about ourselves that we should work on instead of focusing on what we feel others should work on. We can control what we choose to work on while we simply cannot control what others choose to work on.

I for one have a tendency to let things get to me too easily, a bit thin skinned.

I focus too much on what I perceive are other's problems and not my own.

I have a tendency to dismiss too easily thoughts and ideas from those that don't think like me.

These aren't all or what I should work on, but they are what come to mind immediately.

Lastly, I admit to being a problem with tribal wars so to speak. I feel that I think more closely or similarly to posters like Britt, FMIC. I certainly admit that I am not as likely to openly disagree with their takes than I am with other posters. So, we can add honesty to my list of areas that need attention.

RE: RE: This topic..  
.McL. : 3/10/2021 1:43 pm : link
In comment 15171651 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 15171554 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


usually ends up being a roll call of people claiming to take the high road. There are things I need to tone down and certain arguments I will let go.

But acting like this is a site where people are just looking to have a kumbaya and looking to learn from one another is a lot of empty air. Posters who want to do that wouldn't pose a topic by saying people are "cap deniers".



That's second time you've brought that up, and for the second time I will remind you it's a joke between DJM and I -- that he got, laughed at, and we had a nice debate about on the thread. And furthermore, do you find that to be a sensibility offending comment?

Massive false equivalency between a pretty tepid joke and your behavior. Not in the same ballpark.

No one is looking for kumbaya. You conveniently left out the part about debate. That's the heart of what most people do on BBI, debate their points of view.

I think it is time to take this debate up a level and focus on the culture we want to have and not on individuals at this time.

crick has a good point about not disagreeing with "your" tribe, and not accepting fair points from the "other" tribe. I think in a reasonable debate, we all need to be more intellectually honest than we have become. I know that there are times I disagree with "team critical" and I don't voice such, and times that "team optimistic" makes a fair point that I fail to acknowledge.

In the end, this should be a place to learn and debate. For most part we post opinions. Nobody should be persecuted for their opinion. Disagree sure, present counter evidence sure. Try to stay above the personal, and try to stay intellectually honest.

And no, I don't want a massive kumbaya either. It's ok to call out the dumb, but call out the post as dumb, not the poster.
Men will literally write 1000 word posts on FMiC  
adamg : 3/10/2021 1:48 pm : link
Rather than go to therapy.




There's a lot of duplicitous attacks on Fatman in this thread. If you think he's the problem with this site, grow some thicker skin. Your ego is overriding your logic.
RE: Men will literally write 1000 word posts on FMiC  
.McL. : 3/10/2021 1:51 pm : link
In comment 15172032 adamg said:
Quote:
Rather than go to therapy.




There's a lot of duplicitous attacks on Fatman in this thread. If you think he's the problem with this site, grow some thicker skin. Your ego is overriding your logic.

As I said above, I am hoping this debate stays at the site culture level and not focus on individuals for better or worse.
RE: RE: Men will literally write 1000 word posts on FMiC  
FatMan in Charlotte : 3/10/2021 1:55 pm : link
In comment 15172040 .McL. said:
Quote:
In comment 15172032 adamg said:


Quote:


Rather than go to therapy.




There's a lot of duplicitous attacks on Fatman in this thread. If you think he's the problem with this site, grow some thicker skin. Your ego is overriding your logic.


As I said above, I am hoping this debate stays at the site culture level and not focus on individuals for better or worse.


It won't happen in this debate, but hopefully for future ones. This debate is pretty much beaten to death:)
RE: RE: This topic..  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/10/2021 1:56 pm : link
In comment 15171651 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 15171554 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


usually ends up being a roll call of people claiming to take the high road. There are things I need to tone down and certain arguments I will let go.

But acting like this is a site where people are just looking to have a kumbaya and looking to learn from one another is a lot of empty air. Posters who want to do that wouldn't pose a topic by saying people are "cap deniers".



That's second time you've brought that up, and for the second time I will remind you it's a joke between DJM and I -- that he got, laughed at, and we had a nice debate about on the thread. And furthermore, do you find that to be a sensibility offending comment?

Massive false equivalency between a pretty tepid joke and your behavior. Not in the same ballpark.

No one is looking for kumbaya. You conveniently left out the part about debate. That's the heart of what most people do on BBI, debate their points of view.

It's shaping up to be another shitty day on BBI for FMIC.

He might even have to learn how to use a spreadsheet.
RE: RE: RE: This topic..  
.McL. : 3/10/2021 1:57 pm : link
In comment 15172049 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15171651 christian said:


Quote:


In comment 15171554 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


usually ends up being a roll call of people claiming to take the high road. There are things I need to tone down and certain arguments I will let go.

But acting like this is a site where people are just looking to have a kumbaya and looking to learn from one another is a lot of empty air. Posters who want to do that wouldn't pose a topic by saying people are "cap deniers".



That's second time you've brought that up, and for the second time I will remind you it's a joke between DJM and I -- that he got, laughed at, and we had a nice debate about on the thread. And furthermore, do you find that to be a sensibility offending comment?

Massive false equivalency between a pretty tepid joke and your behavior. Not in the same ballpark.

No one is looking for kumbaya. You conveniently left out the part about debate. That's the heart of what most people do on BBI, debate their points of view.


It's shaping up to be another shitty day on BBI for FMIC.

He might even have to learn how to use a spreadsheet.

C'mon GD... Let's stay classy here.
RE: Men will literally write 1000 word posts on FMiC  
NoGainDayne : 3/10/2021 2:06 pm : link
In comment 15172032 adamg said:
Quote:
Rather than go to therapy.




There's a lot of duplicitous attacks on Fatman in this thread. If you think he's the problem with this site, grow some thicker skin. Your ego is overriding your logic.


So you think making multiple comments on other people's mental health in a thread you aren't involved in is healthier than interacting with posts directed at you.

Where can I buy your book on message board psychology and mental health?
RE: RE: Men will literally write 1000 word posts on FMiC  
adamg : 3/10/2021 2:12 pm : link
In comment 15172065 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:
In comment 15172032 adamg said:


Quote:


Rather than go to therapy.




There's a lot of duplicitous attacks on Fatman in this thread. If you think he's the problem with this site, grow some thicker skin. Your ego is overriding your logic.



So you think making multiple comments on other people's mental health in a thread you aren't involved in is healthier than interacting with posts directed at you.

Where can I buy your book on message board psychology and mental health?


Dude. Shut the fuck up. You're the most pompous, self-important poster on this site. Everyone gets shit. But you are on some pedestal beyond rebuke? Fuck that. You've written twenty dissertations in this thread rather than succumb to the fact that we're all assholes here. Even you.
Ugh...  
.McL. : 3/10/2021 2:15 pm : link
I may be forced to agree with FMiC this time...
It doesn't seem like we can stay above the personal on this thread (applies to NGD as well).
This guy came directly for me once in this thread and I didn't respond  
NoGainDayne : 3/10/2021 2:23 pm : link
and then a second time generally.

He made a personal jab at me and then a generally one about my mental health.

I made a joke about his psychological qualifications.

If you want me to admit that I'm willing to punch back if someone punches me than yes I am. Definitely tried to punch a lot softer than him though.

I don't think making a joke about someone's psychology qualifications is a personal attack and I am trying to stay away from those. But maybe that's just me and maybe it would be worth it to talk about what a personal attack is

To me personal attack would have to cut someone down in some way be universally insulting. I might use the test of, would I say this to a friend. And I absolutely would have no problem putting that same phrase back to a friend if they voiced an un-requested opinion on my mental health
RE: I don't think I've seen someone so thin skinned as NGD  
NoGainDayne : 3/10/2021 2:25 pm : link
In comment 15168630 adamg said:
Quote:
Must be the spoiled upper middle class upbringing... At least my own spoiled upper middle class upbringing taught me perspective and shit. I don't need a pat on the back for writing a good forum post. Jesus Christ.

See a therapist, dude.


Oh actually I gave him a kinder read. He came for my mental health twice. Perhaps you missed this McL?
RE: Ugh...  
adamg : 3/10/2021 2:26 pm : link
In comment 15172072 .McL. said:
Quote:
I may be forced to agree with FMiC this time...
It doesn't seem like we can stay above the personal on this thread (applies to NGD as well).


I would love to be able to say FMiC is the problem. There are a lot bigger problems with BBI than that tho.

Btw NGD, if you knew anything about me as a poster you would know I don't take mental health lightly. But your problem is ego, not illness.
RE: This guy came directly for me once in this thread and I didn't respond  
.McL. : 3/10/2021 2:28 pm : link
In comment 15172080 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:
and then a second time generally.

He made a personal jab at me and then a generally one about my mental health.

I made a joke about his psychological qualifications.

If you want me to admit that I'm willing to punch back if someone punches me than yes I am. Definitely tried to punch a lot softer than him though.

I don't think making a joke about someone's psychology qualifications is a personal attack and I am trying to stay away from those. But maybe that's just me and maybe it would be worth it to talk about what a personal attack is

To me personal attack would have to cut someone down in some way be universally insulting. I might use the test of, would I say this to a friend. And I absolutely would have no problem putting that same phrase back to a friend if they voiced an un-requested opinion on my mental health

Please stop NGD...

In my post "To FMiC", the last paragraph I addressed the site. There were some good responses, I thought we were making progress in discussing the tribal culture and what we can do about it. I would prefer to not derail THAT discussion. I'd already responded to adam, hoping to continue the culture discussion, no need to take it further. Please save your disagreements with adam for another thread.
Saying someone should see a therapist isn't an attack on their mental  
adamg : 3/10/2021 2:29 pm : link
Health.

I'm attacking how you receive criticism which therapy might help with.
RE: RE: Ugh...  
.McL. : 3/10/2021 2:33 pm : link
In comment 15172085 adamg said:
Quote:
I would love to be able to say FMiC is the problem. There are a lot bigger problems with BBI than that tho.

I agree, thus the discussion to which I keep trying to bring this thread back.
Look I clearly agree with you  
NoGainDayne : 3/10/2021 2:37 pm : link
but we were making progress and this guy came in with a potshot about mental health when we were trying to find common ground.

It's not a tribe thing. It was an unnecessary comment.

I'll reiterate I can be more respectful but I'm not going to ignore what I believe to be over the line to me personally.

I ignored the first one, not going to let someone just keep taking shots at me without coming back with something.

Again, my response was a lot softer. And if he was as serious about mental health as he claimed he wouldn't be taking potshots about people RE: mental health.
RE: RE: RE: Ugh...  
adamg : 3/10/2021 2:40 pm : link
In comment 15172101 .McL. said:
Quote:
In comment 15172085 adamg said:


Quote:


I would love to be able to say FMiC is the problem. There are a lot bigger problems with BBI than that tho.



I agree, thus the discussion to which I keep trying to bring this thread back.


I admire what you're aiming at. But FMiC and NGD both have fragile egos who thrive on that unhealthy culture. Fat man can resort to personal attacks, NGD can resort to passive aggression and calling the mods. I really don't see how you solve that without just ignoring certain posters. Generally I stay away from both of them. Sometimes they add some insight, sometimes their drama takes over threads. This thread devolved into people taking potshots at Fat man like NGD had nothing to do with it. So I said something. Fat man has a point. NGD has a point.
I didn't take a shot at your mental health genius  
adamg : 3/10/2021 2:42 pm : link
I took a shot at your ego.

The fact you can't tell the difference illustrates the problem.
Also I've never said I was beyond rebuke  
NoGainDayne : 3/10/2021 2:46 pm : link
I do go at people that come at me, that's just my wiring. But I can soften that and have but he has come at me far more than I've come at him in this thread and I'm not prepared to say I won't punch back. Again, I ignored the first one.

I think that is a fair part of this discussion if we are talking about how we want the board to work. Punch back in a way you can confidently say is softer by a good margin just seems a lot more realistic than don't punch back at all.
RE: I didn't take a shot at your mental health genius  
NoGainDayne : 3/10/2021 2:47 pm : link
In comment 15172111 adamg said:
Quote:
I took a shot at your ego.

The fact you can't tell the difference illustrates the problem.


This is you playing innocent, sorry, not going to fly. Suggesting someone needs therapy twice is absolutely taking a shot at their mental health.
RE: ...  
BrettNYG10 : 3/10/2021 2:56 pm : link
In comment 15171497 christian said:
Quote:
BBB — I’ve always found you to be an enjoyable read on this site.

For what it’s worth, I think it’s important to only engage with folks who are looking to get the same thing out of BBI as I do. I’m looking to debate, learn, and enjoy chatting about football.

There are a select few folks on this site who seemingly revel in being rude, right, and controlling. It’s a strange place to flex that muscle in my view.


There are a number of people who post solely to be rude/nasty. I don't know what a lot of these people think - they'd rather just shit on other posters. There are a bunch of people who care way too much about their BBI cred so they avoid voicing an actual opinion.

And it's the same cast of characters bouncing from thread to thread to shit on one another.
And truth be told I'm in therapy, not afraid to admit that  
NoGainDayne : 3/10/2021 3:15 pm : link
therapy is helpful for most people.

I wouldn't say problems of sensitivity or my interactions on BBI have ever even been close to my radar on things to discuss in therapy.

I have very few real life problems or confrontations with anyone, most people find me to be a very kind, positive, happy person.

While I can own my role in my issues with some posters here, I will say that the culture of abuse was here far before me and is far too rampant. My first post on BBI was actually about how people should be nicer, I think I was 14. I think there was a time that the Giants were world class organization so it seemed more fun and games to bat away with no remorse what were likely more nit picks of decisions.

What for the life of me I can't understand or draw an equivalency of is this:

Me and some other posters have some very real frustrations with the way the Giants have been run, a management style it would be hard not to describe as prioritizing familiarity over any kind of metrics of success. Any kind of care for their fans vs. their smaller tribe. I have a much harder time understanding the frustration with people expressing these legitimate frustrations. I'm not invalidating those secondary frustrations just saying it feels like they are often equated and they really aren't equal.
I'm in therapy too  
adamg : 3/10/2021 3:16 pm : link
It wasn't a knock on your mental health. Seriously, I don't joke about those things.

Oy...  
.McL. : 3/10/2021 3:21 pm : link
I'm thinking I need to call a therapist after reading all this...

May I suggest that you both drop it now, please...
Ok I will take you at face value  
NoGainDayne : 3/10/2021 3:23 pm : link
and will apologize for the impression I've left on you to this point. I can own my part in a lot of disruptions.

I try to have a growth mindset with things and even though I have work to do here, I realize you aren't the only one that thinks I've been way too pompous and that isn't the impression I'd like to leave.

I think the force I've felt against my points and even my integrity at times has left me pushing back much harder and talking about myself and my points differently than I otherwise would.

But I would like to work on it and I have been trying since I came back to BBI a lot. If you think I'm overreaching please don't hesitate to call it out. If you email me at the profile I have listed here I will email you back with my real email address if you'd rather share stuff privately.

If you feel it would be better to resume mostly ignoring me no hard feelings but I am serious about doing better here and I want my words and actions to be aligned on that.
RE: Oy...  
NoGainDayne : 3/10/2021 3:23 pm : link
In comment 15172202 .McL. said:
Quote:
I'm thinking I need to call a therapist after reading all this...

May I suggest that you both drop it now, please...


Lol isn't this what you wanted?

I'm going to start a fire and get my guitar...
Brett/christian  
.McL. : 3/10/2021 3:28 pm : link
Couple of things.

1. We cannot count on the Mods to help us. They want to stay above the fray (rightfully so), but they have also shown some significant biases of their own.

2. If we cannot count on the mods then we must police ourselves. I see two methods of enforcement for us as posters. I'm just going to spitball this a little, feel free to disagree... It seems to me that, either we ignore those who transgress, I.E. the "Don't Feed The Trolls" approach. Or a third party needs to call out the trolls. Probably some combination of the two. And when calling out a troll, leave room for the person to save a little face. Don't shout that they are being a troll. Perhaps a comment more like, "Hey so and so, that seems a bit trollish, are you sure you want to go there?". And then don't feed the troll any further.
RE: Ok I will take you at face value  
.McL. : 3/10/2021 3:30 pm : link
In comment 15172213 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:
and will apologize for the impression I've left on you to this point. I can own my part in a lot of disruptions.

I try to have a growth mindset with things and even though I have work to do here, I realize you aren't the only one that thinks I've been way too pompous and that isn't the impression I'd like to leave.

I think the force I've felt against my points and even my integrity at times has left me pushing back much harder and talking about myself and my points differently than I otherwise would.

But I would like to work on it and I have been trying since I came back to BBI a lot. If you think I'm overreaching please don't hesitate to call it out. If you email me at the profile I have listed here I will email you back with my real email address if you'd rather share stuff privately.

If you feel it would be better to resume mostly ignoring me no hard feelings but I am serious about doing better here and I want my words and actions to be aligned on that.

Good post NGD.
Thoughtful  
crick n NC : 3/10/2021 4:02 pm : link
And respectful posts towards others go a long way even if I don't believe that they deserve a thoughtful and respectful reply. Asking sincere questions instead of assuming are helpful as well.

Good work Mcl
Thanks NGD I appreciate you saying that  
adamg : 3/10/2021 4:12 pm : link
I'll keep an open mind going forward.
RE: Thoughtful  
.McL. : 3/10/2021 4:17 pm : link
In comment 15172387 crick n NC said:
Quote:
And respectful posts towards others go a long way even if I don't believe that they deserve a thoughtful and respectful reply. Asking sincere questions instead of assuming are helpful as well.

Good work Mcl


I agree wholeheartedly that mostly we need to look at our own behavior.

That said there will always be habitual offenders. As a community, I think we would benefit from a protocol to deal with those folks.
IDK, maybe just a  
.McL. : 3/10/2021 4:22 pm : link
"Let's keep it classy" post as a BBI code phrase that it's getting out of hand and folks need to back off a bit.
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