Why you guys waste time with people like FMIC. It’s obvious he’s on here to insult people, and try to piss you off. Just ignore him
Wow this thread predictably devolved. I agree with you 100%, and adamg as well. The moderators started this site and can choose to enforce bans however they please. For whatever reason this particular poster is beyond reproach, but it doesn’t matter , simply ignore the posts. I took the advice of a long time poster -thank you, by the way- and ignored this poster after a particularly nasty thread in October, it’s made the forum experience much more enjoyed.
The vast majority of posters on this forum are an enjoyable read, and bring a diverse experience of football knowledge to the board, and are generally wonderful to interact with whether we agree or disagree on the state of the franchise, without it devolving into ad hominem attacks or profanity laced tirades. To the advice and simply ignore.
lax and MyName, I agree with you both. I have generally stopped interacting with him.
That said, he still derails threads on an almost daily basis, and he does so in ways that violate the terms of the site. Can there be any doubt that he regularly violates the first, second and last bullet point of these terms? I still want to know why the Mods keep giving him a pass?
BBI‘s The Corner Forum (The Forum) is an electronic bulletin board for exchanging information and opinions related to the New York Giants. Those who wish to post such information must respect others in the thoughts they express and the words they choose to express them and must otherwise comply with this BBI “Terms of Use; Disclaimer of Liability” policy.
You must be age 14 or over, or have parental permission, to register for an account on this site. If you are a consenting parent or guardian of a child, you agree to discuss this “Terms of Use; Disclaimer of Liability” policy, the BBI Privacy Policy, and general internet use and safety issues with the child. Children and adults should NEVER provide real names, addresses, telephone numbers, or other personally identifiable information when posting on a public internet forum.
You agree to use The Forum only to post messages and material that are proper. By way of example, and not as a limitation, you agree that when using The Forum, you will not distribute, upload, link to, or publish anything that:
is defamatory, libelous, pornographic, obscene, abusive, threatening, stalking, or harassing;
promotes hatred, violence, or illegal conduct;
infringes upon copyrights or trademarks;
violates any law or regulation;
violates the rights of another person (such as rights of privacy);
displays a representation of a site visitor without their express written permission;
creates a false identity for the purpose of misleading others;
promotes or uses surveys, contests, pyramid schemes, chain letters, junk e-mail, spamming, charities, ticket sales, or any commercial messages;
restricts or inhibits any other user from using and enjoying BBI;
is politically or religiously partisan; disrupts the community atmosphere on the website (see the BBI Code of Conduct).
I can see I didn't participate in either of those threads posted. There must have been others because I know I posted a similar sentiment as others have here. I thought it was a reactionary signing to appease the fanbase for the OBJ trade. Just like 2018 was a reaction to the benching of Eli. Reacting to the whims of the masses is a bad way to try to run a winning football team.
It was always a bad idea to sign a player of Tate's age to a contract of that size ($37.5M), length (4yrs), and guaranteed dollars ($23M).
And Matt M. - My apologies, I just felt that the terms he violates needed to be specifically highlighted so nobody has any doubt. I will stop now.
The Giants were so aware of his PED use, there was a clause to negate guaranteed money in his deal. Is that normal? I pay pretty decent attention to contracts, and I’d never heard of that.
Back to BBI conduct, the terms “defamatory” and “disrupts” the community atmosphere are subject to interpretation. You maybe saw my post above where I asked the mods whether they had a more precise set of standards that they used among themselves to judge problematic behavior. I think those precise standards are needed, because I am seeing occasional behavior by long-time posters that would get a newbie banned. We need more “rule of law” and less “rule of man.”
And to all my fellow BBIers, I want to say that almost al, of the best posters here literally never - and I mean never- resort to personal attacks. So it can be done.
Back to BBI conduct, the terms “defamatory” and “disrupts” the community atmosphere are subject to interpretation. You maybe saw my post above where I asked the mods whether they had a more precise set of standards that they used among themselves to judge problematic behavior. I think those precise standards are needed, because I am seeing occasional behavior by long-time posters that would get a newbie banned. We need more “rule of law” and less “rule of man.”
And to all my fellow BBIers, I want to say that almost al, of the best posters here literally never - and I mean never- resort to personal attacks. So it can be done.
Imo, I observe for a long time a lot of sly and nasty provocation from everyone.
Then a retreat to a noble pulpit.
It's become a cesspool swirl while pretending we and our inability to acknowledge out own bad takes and misbegotten arguments had nothing to do with it and we certainly don't keep it going.
Protesting too loudly and after the fact is a dead giveaway to hyper-competitive hyper-sensitives who love to toss buckets of old fish instead of taking charge of themselves.
I was part of it and by dint of this post not yet as distant and disciplined as I hope to be in the future.
If you don't like it McL...then just don't play. You are not an innocent. Nor am I. So if we are above it as we claim - let's both t prove it.
Imo, I observe for a long time a lot of sly and nasty provocation from everyone.
Then a retreat to a noble pulpit.
It's become a cesspool swirl while pretending we and our inability to acknowledge out own bad takes and misbegotten arguments had nothing to do with it and we certainly don't keep it going.
Protesting too loudly and after the fact is a dead giveaway to hyper-competitive hyper-sensitives who love to toss buckets of old fish instead of taking charge of themselves.
I was part of it and by dint of this post not yet as distant and disciplined as I hope to be in the future.
If you don't like it McL...then just don't play. You are not an innocent. Nor am I. So if we are above it as we claim - let's both t prove it.
Deal?
Bill2,
In general I agree with what you are suggestion, but I do have some caveats.
I believe it is a valid for any society/community to debate the laws that govern them. Furthermore, to expect that those laws are enforced equally. It is the responsibility of every member of a community to ensure that the laws are just, and fairly enforced, and to call it out when they are not. It is irresponsible to just hide your head in the sand, and expect somebody else to take care of the problem. You have often defended FMiC sometimes directly, often indirectly as you have in this post. My question to you is why? Do you condone his behavior? Do you wish to perpetuate it it? You are not just responsible for you own behavior, by defending him as you have, you become responsible for his, and the resulting fallout, is that what you wish? I realize that you have known him for quite some time, and met him in person, so you may have some personal collegiality with him and that represents a conflict for you. But consider his behavior more dispassionately, is this what you want?
I agree with you, that the most important thing we can do is be responsible with our own behaviors, and set a good example. I promise to do my best...
I will admit that I have had some unpleasant interactions with him in the past (and I admit that I set him up and baited him more than once). I did so with a purpose in mind. And although my father always said that the road to hell is paved with good intentions, I will not apologize for my purpose. That purpose has been largely fulfilled, as such I rarely if ever interact with him anymore. I will take responsibility and apologize to the board for any of the unpleasantness that I may have caused with the means I took toward that purpose. You will have not seen me post in that manner in quite some time, now will see it going forward.
That said, it is still a valid topic of debate as to what the rules are for board, and how are they enforced. Many people didn't like the ban on political speech, but it made the site better. We need something similar, i.e. more clear cut here as well. While I don't want to make this site boring, I think the vast majority can agree that there are somethings we would all rather not see on the board, and that when transgression occur, that the enforcement is done without prejudice. Part of doing my best will continue to be responsible not just for my own behaviors, but to fulfill my responsibility to this and any community to which I belong. At times that may be to bring up topics of debate such as this, even if it causes short term unpleasantness for some, but hopefully leads to a better outcome.
is that some of the fallout from his behavior was that there were some posters who tried to copy his style.
Maybe I am kidding myself, but, it seems to me that in recent months, there have been much fewer copycat FMiCs on the board. And the site has benefited.
You have "good reasons" and he does not. ( may even be true but it is a flaw to be a good analyst and not humble to consider the biggest variable is us and we are the last to know what we most need to know.
Lets face it, in your last post, you defended your self ( adding a layer of paint to the walls) and blamed the other guy. In the post before you continued your campaign ( no one was talking to you about this until you interjected the same narrative of 50-100 posts unasked) to drive away and rally the shame down on another poster ( I dont care whose to blame and who started it and whose worse...im a member of a site trying to find utility while tossing junk out of the way to see if there is any there. For the record, I talk to you and not him only because I assumed you could eventually see better. That's the only reason) while trying to "appear" fair and judicious.
Its hypocrisy. Face it. Some of the years back posts were a mix of huge suppositions and assumptions with a veneer of "mathyiness". You wanted credit for your credentials and no questioning of the almost magical thinking aspects of your posts. He did not do that and saw through some huge holes in thinking and self awarded certainty. (I also tried to point these things out to you back then), He called you out as if you were just another poster ( part of the worlds current disdain of "expertise"??). Like all of us, you didnt like it.
I dont know whats in your head or his. Maybe you each are as noble and honorable in your own minds as you claim. In my experience humans often are blind to anything less than being honorable or justified in their own minds exactly when they do the same thing in slightly different guises ( perhaps by now, maybe you and others have long since ridiculed him more or equal to the other way around? ).
I know that you will always assume I am defending FMIC. ( I think its part of being at ease with magical thinking and partially just plain easy to attack the motivations of the other guys and not stop and think if the message has truth in it) Im not. I do think he truly knows he is unfair to you and now enjoys insulting you when he calls you out. I dont think you do when you do the same. I dont think you acknowledge some of your posts deserve and deserved critique.
Its a critique of supposition/assumptions based site. You do it to others. They do it to you. You ridicule other posters and points of view as if they are trash. The same is done to you. Cutting by arch raised eyebrows is a slick version of blunt force directness. As you well know. As I well know.
Its a bad site McL. The recent record of the team and the combinations of posters who self identify as a sub-team have produced some bad years on the site and some good ones.
Want proof? Track which posters dont post the week after a victory and which ones re appear after a loss. And precisely vice versa.
Unfortunately, I dont wish to continue for I get nowhere when I talk to you and neither does anyone else.
Why dont you reach out in private and just email FMIC? Oh, because all communication would selectively be used against the other guy? Is that the site? Or him? Or both of your proven track records of hitting below the belt past the point of being trustworthy?
My main point is that both...both... you guys look and are acting in ways that pull the site and reduce interest in what you do/can contribute. Thats a shame.
If you want the other guy to stop...then you stop renting out mental shelf space and taking your shots. Then and only then do you have a non whataboutism case that its him and not an age old swirl. Then go to the mods. If I were a mod (never happen) id say a pox on both your houses. Until that changes it wont change.
Hope it does because I think you both can make good contributions on different NYG topics but imo 50% is up to you.
the posters who copy his style are way off the mark of how to help the site get better.
Are you brushing all who question your posts ( you do know that your posts are not you (none of us know you and vice versa...just your words as we understand your posts)?) but what your line of "reasoning" in a post was???) with that allegation in lieu of fatigue some have with the constant bashing without balance? Or do we have a growing set of FMIC-alikes?
I dont follow the threads and some posters well enough to know that.
What I do know is that I come here less often, spend less hours here than ever and slowly think I do better not being here
One other thing I notice about this version of BBI
Folks quickly assign other posters to the other "team" if they say even one thing that deviates from the "team" storylines.
Its become a lot of bullshit and I dont know how to post with out contributing to it. So dropping out until some posters get exhausted or the team begins to move forward ( equally exhausting to watch and hope for) seems the only answer for me. Just imo
I can see I didn't participate in either of those threads posted. There must have been others because I know I posted a similar sentiment as others have here. I thought it was a reactionary signing to appease the fanbase for the OBJ trade. Just like 2018 was a reaction to the benching of Eli. Reacting to the whims of the masses is a bad way to try to run a winning football team.
It was always a bad idea to sign a player of Tate's age to a contract of that size ($37.5M), length (4yrs), and guaranteed dollars ($23M).
And Matt M. - My apologies, I just felt that the terms he violates needed to be specifically highlighted so nobody has any doubt. I will stop now.
Believe me, that wasn't directed just at you. It was a general statement.
I certainly understand in cases of mutual violation of the terms of
use why talking in degrees and severity is a fruitless endeavor but if someone is always throwing garbage on the floor of your lobby would you just say oh just ignore that person, he will stop throwing the garbage.
So too FMiC and his verbal garbage. And there is zero, zero evidence that he will stop throwing garbage up on this site just because he is ignored. Zero evidence he's wired that way at all.
On this thread, he's been abusive, he's cursed. He's told outright lies. He revealed a personal fact about my relative being a lawyer (something he really shouldn't know) and then when he found out it was my father promptly decided to suggest he "might" be a terrible lawyer.
The first time I reached out to the site about him I did say he was lying about me, I did say it was slander. I cited the specific thing and I sent information to prove he was lying. I did not threaten to sue in any way shape or form. I just asked something to be done to curb his lying. I'm not sure where the obsession over if it was literal slander or not comes from because I very much did not threaten to sue.
The second time I did threaten to sue IF he revealed my full name, he had revealed my first name and made a threatening comment. Something that I think absolutely deserves an apology given that he did in fact reveal my first name and that is an extreme step.
Besides, how does he have any idea what I said? Was he shown my communications with the site owner? Not sure why he's allowed to lie. Not sure why he's allowed to be so abusive.
I've actually apologized a few times for my conduct because I heard the feedback from other posters. bill, you and I have had our times where things have been more strained and I think we both took steps to see each others perspectives and meet in the middle. Why is he allowed to just never show any remorse, never show any effort to be less abusive. Be allowed to lie? The first time I went to the site it was because he lied about me, he has no problem lying. I just don't understand how this particular thing could possibly be allowed.
Could my behavior on this site have been much better? Absolutely. But on this thread, I've tried to be a different person than I have been. I haven't violated any of the sites terms. We are just supposed to watch this person throw garbage around? Does anyone actually believe he would stop if ignored?
I was genuinely trying to see if I remained grounded in facts on this thread, remain calm, things might go differently. I've tried many different approaches with him, there have been long periods where I ignored him but on the day let loose my first name, I wasn't having a very good day. Is this really what is being asked of people here, that he just sling crap at us day after day without us having a human moment where we sling it back?
What about new people coming to the site? Younger people? Does he come with a warning label? Not one I've seen.
I actually do care about this community a lot which is why I specifically said in the email where he revealed my first name that I did NOT want to do anything. But I was very concerned that he was going to just post my name on the internet which along with other things he's been willing to say about me feels very dangerous.
As GD said, I think everyone else on this site is willing to eat their crow when they are told they are in the wrong. And I'm willing to hear that it's not worth it for anyone for me to make any attempts to stand up for myself, or anyone to stand up for the community he has no problem polluting.
Irrespective of him, I'm not sure a strategy of ignoring problematic behavior is ever even remotely as effective as active steps to curb that behavior. A bit ponderous why people are acting like that will work but unlike him, I'd be willing to try anything to make the verbal littering stop
Apparently I touched a nerve. I forced you to question your own positions. As you often do to others, me included (nothing wrong with that). I don't know all your motivations or goals. I do know that you have met FMiC in person and shared beers with him (at least both of you have said such). Knowing somebody face to face changes things. It makes it more difficult to behave badly toward that person, it also make it more difficult to call them out when you know you should. Perhaps there are other things at play, for all I know there are extenuating circumstances with regards to this person. I would not know, I have never met him.
I will say that, I noticed you didn't address the meat of my response, that we all have a responsibility greater than ourselves. You and I differ on how to approach certain problems. We have different skill sets. There are some skill sets that I am all too acutely aware that I lack. The gentle art of persuasion is one of them. Instead of addressing that, you chose to mostly get angry with me (calling my posts "magical thinking with a veneer mathiyness" appear to be meant as a slight) and engaged in the exact behavior for which you are supposedly calling me out. Questioning the rules here and how they are applied is not the same. I have long been bothered by some bannings that seemed arbitrary and didn't seem to deserve it, and others who continually cross the line without consequences. I still believe that question is fair game, even if it applies to somebody with whom you have a personal and collegial relationship.
Also, I must point out, that I am self aware. I take responsibility for my actions. In this case, if my posts bring a pox on me so be it. I will accept those consequences. I try to do what I can to make BBI a better place. If the community doesn't like it, if I am to be shunned, banned, so be it, life goes on, I tried my best. I try not to partake in the tribalist culture (although my opinions often but not always align with one of the tribes here, as do yours). I state my opinion and move on.
I agree with you, that our world and not just BBI has devolved into tribal wars. For that, we are all the worse off for it. And yes, I have noticed who posts after victories and after losses. You will notice, that I will post after both.
Lets be clear, this is a fan site. None of us have all the information, some here may be more expert about football and may have more information than others, but none of us are fully expert in the details that go into ever aspect of a football team. None of us are privileged with the level of inside information that the people running the team have. As such, we post our opinions and we debate them. Opinions are not magical thinking. They are simply opinions. Some opinions can be supported, others not so much. I try to provide supporting information along with my opinions. I am more than willing to debate my opinions. I am more than willing to debate the supporting information. I am willing to be shown a better opinion. Many have on this board have been able to change my mind. In general, I do not attack others for their opinion. I may question the opinion, I may offer an alternative, I may provide evidence that refutes the opinion. But I don't attack for holding an opinion. In fact, I often bow out of debates when posters start piling on somebody even when they have an opinion I disagree with. I have even posted suggestions at times that folks back off even when I disagree with the OP. What I am not willing to do is to suffer ad hominem attacks. I think you will be hard pressed to find me posting such attacks other than with this one poster. There may have been a few other occasions, mostly when the post has leveled such attacks at me. I agree we should try to stay above it, but sometimes in the heat of the moment we post without fully thinking it through. I am not perfect. But ad hominem attacks are not debate and they often violate the terms of the site. I have spent significant time debating topics with you. You know that I am open to debate. In fact you are one of the posters who has changed my mind at times. Even if my mind changes, it is still all just opinion. We would all do well to keep that in mind.
As for my behavior. We are all at times hypocritical, we all make mistakes, the best we can do is to minimize it. I have admitted that I dealt with FMiC in a less than seemly manner. I can accept you calling me a hypocrite for that. It is not something I do regularly. I made an exception to achieve a goal. Admittedly my methods were poor. As I said, I am not good at gentle persuasion. I am willing to live with the consequences... If that means some people dislike me, or even if I am banned, I can live with that.
We have copy cats? I don’t follow it enough to see it. Is this new? Who are there posters?
FMIC rips on me all of the time. Often with lazy work such as the ‘he ain’t from Rutgers’ routine. But, oddly, I like what he bring to BBI.
Lets just say there were some who tried to copy his style...
Also, I want to be clear, not all of what FMiC does is bad. The site needs people who are willing to call out the dumb and the BS. Just not the way he does it. And it doesn't have to be gentle, just not personal, obscene and/or harassing.
If you want to contact me privately, I have an old alias email account I created to protect my identity for social media. Haven't used or checked it in years, but i just verified that it still works.
Again, now re read all the posts and our experiences with the idea that sometimes a person does say the truth.
I talk to you because I am rooting for you to grasp the opposing possibility.
If you think I would take up the cause of FMIC behavior in a scrum or your behavior in a scrum I don't know what to tell you...you are both fighting and reduced for it. One with a stiletto complaining about the other guy using a mallet. Do you seriously think anyone here for awhile hasn't seen a ridiculous internet fight that just gets in every one else's way?
Usually there are three options:
One is walking away 100% of the time.
The other is sending a direct confidential email via the mods and being blunt in your request that it stops.
One is a post committing to stop talking if the other guy will.
Talking to the site and rallying others to the your side without trying the man to man communication or deciding it isn't worth it just tells us who is trying to use a stiletto .
Trying to turn the discussion to my motivation is continuing to be more interested in being self righteous about fighting with FMIC than ending it by vacuum or direct deal with him.
After attempting direct conversation or making a commitment to stop, then it's fair to run for office from the wooden steps of every tavern. Worked for many a President for 100 years.
FMIC has refused to stop so far. So have you refused to end what is in your power to end.. So current tactics are not working. All I'm asking is for the more flexible and stronger poster to try another way to bring this to an end.
I know I can walk away from posting with anyone here and the site in total. So far, neither of you can.
At some point wasting time in an obsession on the internet just wastes other people's time. Internet fighting is not a fight won on points. Its won by stopping.
That's my protest. I think you can settle this with honor àbd he can't. Settling it by trying to win by debating points or appeals to the audience isn't working. Time for trying new ways to win?
First, when was the last time you saw me directly interact with FMiC? It has been many months. In general I have walked away from him. However, I have not walked away from doing what I can to make BBI a better place. Unfortunately, that goal often crosses his path for obvious reasons. I don't interact with him directly. My appeal has been more to the site, as it was on this thread. I didn't direct my original post to him. I directed to the Mods. I haven't partaken in the back and forth with him.
Second, you are kidding yourself if you think I have not tried the other avenues with which you listed. I did have a conversation with Mods to get their take on things. More generally, not specifically him. If you care to know about that conversation, I will discuss it with you privately. I also made attempts to appeal to the rest of the board, in years past. That is in large part where my powers of persuasion failed me. The only item on your list that I did not try was a private conversation with him, which I know would never amount to anything, and I didn't want him to know my real identity anyway. I have always been a private person, and cautious about revealing myself online, however, there are others on this board who have threatened me physically as well. So I think you can understand my desire to remain private. It is only just today that I decided to check and see if that old account from 15 years ago still worked. Other than that, all my other email account would divulge my identity.
As I said, I do not interact with him anymore, in case you haven't noticed. Whether I interact with him or not, he still destroys thread after thread fighting with everybody. I does become tiresome. So I am not sure what else you are expecting me to end. I don't talk to him, I don't bait him, and yet here we are, he still behaves the way he behaves. Why is it that we all have to just put up with him? Unless there are consequences for him, I believe he will continue to fight all the time and make the site all the worse for rest of us.
I'm sorry, the issue goes beyond just me and my interactions with him in the past. Believe me, I understand what you have been trying to say to me for quite some time. I got it long ago. Me ignoring him doesn't solve the problem. It may make a few posters like yourself feel a little about about me, but it fails to make the site better.
You have an email address with which to reach me if you choose to do so.
I will make you a deal. I have appealed to you directly in the pas, but I will try one more time.
For my part, I will not single you out in any of my posts. I won't as Bill2 put it, try to "rally the site to my side". However, this promise does not extend to me trying to publicly pressure the Mods into enforcing the terms of the site more fairly. But I won't use you as the example.
For your part, please, please, please, stop fighting so much with everybody. I don't expect you to stop completely. What's more is that calling out some of the dumb BS is a service you provide to the board. But please, limit yourself, try to bow out of the back and forth gracefully after 2 or 3 posts. Also, it's ok to call out the dumb, but try not to intimidate every new poster off the site. The rest of the site does that well enough already.
In addition, to the rest of the site. Bill is right, we have become too tribal. Often depending who is online, one or a small group of posters will get targeted by many. Both tribes do this. If there is too much back and forth, with many against one or two, it might be a good time to lighten up or even back away. If at any point you feel the need to say something personal and nasty, perhaps that is also time to step away. I have made this appeal to the board before and was thoroughly ridiculed, which is fine. I don't expect to reach everybody, if my words here do appeal to the better angels in any of us though, the site will be better for it. We should all feel alarmed when a poster like Bill2 is saying that he is choosing to spend less time here. We all need to look to ourselves and what we can do to make this community better.
Surely you know that appealing to the Mods in this situation is war by other means? The guy you claim to be walking away from gets to see you trying to get him banned and is supposed to not respond because you claim you only addressed the Mods?
Who is trying to kid who with that one? "I was trying to get a guy banned by addressing the Mods in my posts. Pretty personal assaults but that's not to be taken by him as me communicating. What who me? I don't talk to him anymore. I just want to make the site better."
Sorry i didn't fall off a turnip truck yesterday. That sounds like " I want my pound of flesh for being called out for the dumb parts of my posts while not being adored for the good posts"
Sounds like:
" After all, I alone should never be called out for my flawed thinking. I have papal immunity on internet sites". Now I'm not continuing it because my posts on the main site are really not supposed to be read by him when I claim to be rallying the site to write to the mods. See how he won't stop?
That important point about this noble contribution of yours aside, I do see your dilemma more clearly.
Maybe it's time to just silently ask the mods to intervene while you truly disengage for the years it takes for posters to notice the other guy has disengaged?
Sorry it just seems to take most posters that long on the internet. Funny to think one of us is allowed to be sensitive and have memories of past fights when the same handle talks about banning us. That's not to be taken as a sign of a very personal animus? That's not supposed to be read or replied to because you were really talking to the mods?
But I leave you to solve it as you see fit. You are a smart guy ànd I'm sure you can.
I hope FMIC sees all this and does his part.. I'm guessing the track record of trust the other guy will stop os pretty low (neither and both haven't stopped).
I submit that you have completely misjudged me here. I am not claiming innocence. If fact when you hear me out, you may even decide that what I have done is worse. That said, I urge you to email me directly and I will tell you some things I am not willing to say publicly.
I'm going to think on reaching out to FMiC myself.
Not sure how much I could hope for understanding, but perhaps we can get somewhere on rules of engagement. I think it might be too late for that but I certainly see your point especially about the mods, where perhaps I haven't done enough to put forth legit olive branches in a more direct way without reaching for the stick.
I think it is an especially good point that sometimes people speak from a moral high ground when the hill they are standing on is inches above the one they are shouting "down" from. And even that perception of height differential could be measured at varying results depending on the individuals perspective.
RE: tribalism here and that there is too much in the world... We have way too much common ground for the sticks to outnumber the carrots as much as they do here sometimes. I do think it's worth saying that I appreciate that you and some others that might slant in the other "tribe" make efforts to agree on some shared truths. Especially for those who might just be reading the site, who might be less knowledgeable in some of the areas others are. When two sides are dealing in different truths we lose even a tenuous grasp on any kind of "truth" of value.
So I will thank you for that. For your efforts to find where we can agree, even when I've overreached in moments I'm not having my best thoughts. In moments when I think we both know there are things that you and others on this site have very real interpersonal feelings on that there isn't an equivalent of for me.
I'll also use this as an opportunity to thank posters like Sean, Eric in LI, Thegratefulhead, pjcas18, arc (RIP I guess?) and others who do a good job of holding onto civility even when on different sides of the debate and not necessarily receiving it. And JonC who always seems to find a way to come in with a perspective which is measured enough that is is hard to detect much of a slant.
Even ryanmkeane who I'm pretty sure could tell you it was a beautiful day completely soaked in rain has managed to keep things civil 100% of the time to the best of my knowledge.
Regardless, the point of this is I'm happy to commit a greater effort to reduce tribalism and civility even if that means toning down my pursuit of what I feel is "right." Even if it means a willingness to call out people more in my "tribe" if I see behavior that is not helping the quality of debates. And to anyone that may have given up on trying to find middle ground with me, I hope to change your minds.
I think the beauty of smaller communities is that while faced with all the same challenges of larger ones there are ways to handle those challenges better and I'm personally committed to being part of the solution here.
Back to BBI conduct, the terms “defamatory” and “disrupts” the community atmosphere are subject to interpretation. You maybe saw my post above where I asked the mods whether they had a more precise set of standards that they used among themselves to judge problematic behavior. I think those precise standards are needed, because I am seeing occasional behavior by long-time posters that would get a newbie banned. We need more “rule of law” and less “rule of man.”
And to all my fellow BBIers, I want to say that almost al, of the best posters here literally never - and I mean never- resort to personal attacks. So it can be done.
The worst part of it is that it spreads to everyone. I used to spend a part of every day on this website until one day a few years back I sent an email to Eric to delete my account. I had gone from a poster who wanted to learn and help others learn to a nasty, name calling jerk because that was the atmosphere and I adapted to fit in. I still only come on here once or twice a week at most because the toxic atmosphere is just brutal.
BBB — I’ve always found you to be an enjoyable read on this site.
For what it’s worth, I think it’s important to only engage with folks who are looking to get the same thing out of BBI as I do. I’m looking to debate, learn, and enjoy chatting about football.
There are a select few folks on this site who seemingly revel in being rude, right, and controlling. It’s a strange place to flex that muscle in my view.
usually ends up being a roll call of people claiming to take the high road. There are things I need to tone down and certain arguments I will let go.
But acting like this is a site where people are just looking to have a kumbaya and looking to learn from one another is a lot of empty air. Posters who want to do that wouldn't pose a topic by saying people are "cap deniers".
Posters wouldn't stand beside known dupes and trolls simply because they hold a similar position. What do they do? Band against posters who hold the opposing viewpoint. I hammer against the opposing viewpoint continually. Just own that.
That's why the high road is a lonely place. A lot of people look up and say they are taking it, but it's as empty as an express lane in Butte, Montana.
Bill is right, we have become too tribal. Often depending who is online, one or a small group of posters will get targeted by many. Both tribes do this.
It is a good observation. It has become tribal and not very different than the tribal discussions we see around politics in other places like Facebook.
Once you pick "as side", somehow people have the inability to admit (ever) that the other side has a point. It is that way when discussing politics and also that way depending on whether you like Dave Gettleman for example.
So now we have people who look for ANY opportunity to bring their skewed point of view into a discussion that has nothing to do with that topic. The derailment of what starts as a good discussion ends up sounding like every other thread
Bill is right, we have become too tribal. Often depending who is online, one or a small group of posters will get targeted by many. Both tribes do this.
It is a good observation. It has become tribal and not very different than the tribal discussions we see around politics in other places like Facebook.
Once you pick "as side", somehow people have the inability to admit (ever) that the other side has a point. It is that way when discussing politics and also that way depending on whether you like Dave Gettleman for example.
So now we have people who look for ANY opportunity to bring their skewed point of view into a discussion that has nothing to do with that topic. The derailment of what starts as a good discussion ends up sounding like every other thread
I can't get into the "tribal" debate because I honestly have no clue about and don't pay ateention to sides,dupe, etc. I just know I agree with that last point you made that whatever this dynamic is, most football threads quickly denigrate into the same pissing matches, which is why I spend significantly less time on BBI.
usually ends up being a roll call of people claiming to take the high road. There are things I need to tone down and certain arguments I will let go.
But acting like this is a site where people are just looking to have a kumbaya and looking to learn from one another is a lot of empty air. Posters who want to do that wouldn't pose a topic by saying people are "cap deniers".
That's second time you've brought that up, and for the second time I will remind you it's a joke between DJM and I -- that he got, laughed at, and we had a nice debate about on the thread. And furthermore, do you find that to be a sensibility offending comment?
Massive false equivalency between a pretty tepid joke and your behavior. Not in the same ballpark.
No one is looking for kumbaya. You conveniently left out the part about debate. That's the heart of what most people do on BBI, debate their points of view.
Yea, welcome to the world of UFA. Guys get paid when they are FA.
He's off the books now. We can all sleep well at night.
Not only that, but when you need a player at a certain position, your choices are your choices at that moment during the off season. In fact, it is worse than that because what we do not see are the players who we wanted but we were outbid and the players who simply refused to come and play for a losing franchise.
Sometimes the free agent market is a lot like the toilet paper shelves during the pandemic. You may want Charmin but you are getting store brand and at that moment, you may be paying the Charmin price for it too due to supply and demand.
Yea, welcome to the world of UFA. Guys get paid when they are FA.
Not your best.
Guys “get paid”? Yes. When you pay way too much for a guy like this the team suffers for years.
It was a terrible move and not just because of the money which was outrageous. Over 2 years he was paid like. #1 and he played like a role player (that he is).
And there is a big difference in the toilet paper example. You buy bad toilet paper once it doesn’t increase the probability that you will need to buy bad toilet paper again.
Overpaying for free agents is a known major factor in a cycle of losing seasons. If the concern is that free agents don’t want to sign with your team because it isn’t good enough, the way out is drafting well not overpaying for FAs because your options are limited.
Quote:
Why you guys waste time with people like FMIC. It’s obvious he’s on here to insult people, and try to piss you off. Just ignore him
Wow this thread predictably devolved. I agree with you 100%, and adamg as well. The moderators started this site and can choose to enforce bans however they please. For whatever reason this particular poster is beyond reproach, but it doesn’t matter , simply ignore the posts. I took the advice of a long time poster -thank you, by the way- and ignored this poster after a particularly nasty thread in October, it’s made the forum experience much more enjoyed.
The vast majority of posters on this forum are an enjoyable read, and bring a diverse experience of football knowledge to the board, and are generally wonderful to interact with whether we agree or disagree on the state of the franchise, without it devolving into ad hominem attacks or profanity laced tirades. To the advice and simply ignore.
lax and MyName, I agree with you both. I have generally stopped interacting with him.
That said, he still derails threads on an almost daily basis, and he does so in ways that violate the terms of the site. Can there be any doubt that he regularly violates the first, second and last bullet point of these terms? I still want to know why the Mods keep giving him a pass?
BBI Terms Of Use
Use of The Corner Forum:
BBI‘s The Corner Forum (The Forum) is an electronic bulletin board for exchanging information and opinions related to the New York Giants. Those who wish to post such information must respect others in the thoughts they express and the words they choose to express them and must otherwise comply with this BBI “Terms of Use; Disclaimer of Liability” policy.
You must be age 14 or over, or have parental permission, to register for an account on this site. If you are a consenting parent or guardian of a child, you agree to discuss this “Terms of Use; Disclaimer of Liability” policy, the BBI Privacy Policy, and general internet use and safety issues with the child. Children and adults should NEVER provide real names, addresses, telephone numbers, or other personally identifiable information when posting on a public internet forum.
You agree to use The Forum only to post messages and material that are proper. By way of example, and not as a limitation, you agree that when using The Forum, you will not distribute, upload, link to, or publish anything that:
is defamatory, libelous, pornographic, obscene, abusive, threatening, stalking, or harassing;
promotes hatred, violence, or illegal conduct;
infringes upon copyrights or trademarks;
violates any law or regulation;
violates the rights of another person (such as rights of privacy);
displays a representation of a site visitor without their express written permission;
creates a false identity for the purpose of misleading others;
promotes or uses surveys, contests, pyramid schemes, chain letters, junk e-mail, spamming, charities, ticket sales, or any commercial messages;
restricts or inhibits any other user from using and enjoying BBI;
is politically or religiously partisan;
disrupts the community atmosphere on the website (see the BBI Code of Conduct).
It was always a bad idea to sign a player of Tate's age to a contract of that size ($37.5M), length (4yrs), and guaranteed dollars ($23M).
And Matt M. - My apologies, I just felt that the terms he violates needed to be specifically highlighted so nobody has any doubt. I will stop now.
"Culture" signing.
And to all my fellow BBIers, I want to say that almost al, of the best posters here literally never - and I mean never- resort to personal attacks. So it can be done.
LOL, well played.
And to all my fellow BBIers, I want to say that almost al, of the best posters here literally never - and I mean never- resort to personal attacks. So it can be done.
Good points!
Then a retreat to a noble pulpit.
It's become a cesspool swirl while pretending we and our inability to acknowledge out own bad takes and misbegotten arguments had nothing to do with it and we certainly don't keep it going.
Protesting too loudly and after the fact is a dead giveaway to hyper-competitive hyper-sensitives who love to toss buckets of old fish instead of taking charge of themselves.
I was part of it and by dint of this post not yet as distant and disciplined as I hope to be in the future.
If you don't like it McL...then just don't play. You are not an innocent. Nor am I. So if we are above it as we claim - let's both t prove it.
Deal?
Then a retreat to a noble pulpit.
It's become a cesspool swirl while pretending we and our inability to acknowledge out own bad takes and misbegotten arguments had nothing to do with it and we certainly don't keep it going.
Protesting too loudly and after the fact is a dead giveaway to hyper-competitive hyper-sensitives who love to toss buckets of old fish instead of taking charge of themselves.
I was part of it and by dint of this post not yet as distant and disciplined as I hope to be in the future.
If you don't like it McL...then just don't play. You are not an innocent. Nor am I. So if we are above it as we claim - let's both t prove it.
Deal?
Bill2,
In general I agree with what you are suggestion, but I do have some caveats.
I believe it is a valid for any society/community to debate the laws that govern them. Furthermore, to expect that those laws are enforced equally. It is the responsibility of every member of a community to ensure that the laws are just, and fairly enforced, and to call it out when they are not. It is irresponsible to just hide your head in the sand, and expect somebody else to take care of the problem. You have often defended FMiC sometimes directly, often indirectly as you have in this post. My question to you is why? Do you condone his behavior? Do you wish to perpetuate it it? You are not just responsible for you own behavior, by defending him as you have, you become responsible for his, and the resulting fallout, is that what you wish? I realize that you have known him for quite some time, and met him in person, so you may have some personal collegiality with him and that represents a conflict for you. But consider his behavior more dispassionately, is this what you want?
I agree with you, that the most important thing we can do is be responsible with our own behaviors, and set a good example. I promise to do my best...
I will admit that I have had some unpleasant interactions with him in the past (and I admit that I set him up and baited him more than once). I did so with a purpose in mind. And although my father always said that the road to hell is paved with good intentions, I will not apologize for my purpose. That purpose has been largely fulfilled, as such I rarely if ever interact with him anymore. I will take responsibility and apologize to the board for any of the unpleasantness that I may have caused with the means I took toward that purpose. You will have not seen me post in that manner in quite some time, now will see it going forward.
That said, it is still a valid topic of debate as to what the rules are for board, and how are they enforced. Many people didn't like the ban on political speech, but it made the site better. We need something similar, i.e. more clear cut here as well. While I don't want to make this site boring, I think the vast majority can agree that there are somethings we would all rather not see on the board, and that when transgression occur, that the enforcement is done without prejudice. Part of doing my best will continue to be responsible not just for my own behaviors, but to fulfill my responsibility to this and any community to which I belong. At times that may be to bring up topics of debate such as this, even if it causes short term unpleasantness for some, but hopefully leads to a better outcome.
Deal?
Maybe I am kidding myself, but, it seems to me that in recent months, there have been much fewer copycat FMiCs on the board. And the site has benefited.
Lets face it, in your last post, you defended your self ( adding a layer of paint to the walls) and blamed the other guy. In the post before you continued your campaign ( no one was talking to you about this until you interjected the same narrative of 50-100 posts unasked) to drive away and rally the shame down on another poster ( I dont care whose to blame and who started it and whose worse...im a member of a site trying to find utility while tossing junk out of the way to see if there is any there. For the record, I talk to you and not him only because I assumed you could eventually see better. That's the only reason) while trying to "appear" fair and judicious.
Its hypocrisy. Face it. Some of the years back posts were a mix of huge suppositions and assumptions with a veneer of "mathyiness". You wanted credit for your credentials and no questioning of the almost magical thinking aspects of your posts. He did not do that and saw through some huge holes in thinking and self awarded certainty. (I also tried to point these things out to you back then), He called you out as if you were just another poster ( part of the worlds current disdain of "expertise"??). Like all of us, you didnt like it.
I dont know whats in your head or his. Maybe you each are as noble and honorable in your own minds as you claim. In my experience humans often are blind to anything less than being honorable or justified in their own minds exactly when they do the same thing in slightly different guises ( perhaps by now, maybe you and others have long since ridiculed him more or equal to the other way around? ).
I know that you will always assume I am defending FMIC. ( I think its part of being at ease with magical thinking and partially just plain easy to attack the motivations of the other guys and not stop and think if the message has truth in it) Im not. I do think he truly knows he is unfair to you and now enjoys insulting you when he calls you out. I dont think you do when you do the same. I dont think you acknowledge some of your posts deserve and deserved critique.
Its a critique of supposition/assumptions based site. You do it to others. They do it to you. You ridicule other posters and points of view as if they are trash. The same is done to you. Cutting by arch raised eyebrows is a slick version of blunt force directness. As you well know. As I well know.
Its a bad site McL. The recent record of the team and the combinations of posters who self identify as a sub-team have produced some bad years on the site and some good ones.
Want proof? Track which posters dont post the week after a victory and which ones re appear after a loss. And precisely vice versa.
Unfortunately, I dont wish to continue for I get nowhere when I talk to you and neither does anyone else.
Why dont you reach out in private and just email FMIC? Oh, because all communication would selectively be used against the other guy? Is that the site? Or him? Or both of your proven track records of hitting below the belt past the point of being trustworthy?
My main point is that both...both... you guys look and are acting in ways that pull the site and reduce interest in what you do/can contribute. Thats a shame.
If you want the other guy to stop...then you stop renting out mental shelf space and taking your shots. Then and only then do you have a non whataboutism case that its him and not an age old swirl. Then go to the mods. If I were a mod (never happen) id say a pox on both your houses. Until that changes it wont change.
Hope it does because I think you both can make good contributions on different NYG topics but imo 50% is up to you.
Good night. Take care.
Are you brushing all who question your posts ( you do know that your posts are not you (none of us know you and vice versa...just your words as we understand your posts)?) but what your line of "reasoning" in a post was???) with that allegation in lieu of fatigue some have with the constant bashing without balance? Or do we have a growing set of FMIC-alikes?
I dont follow the threads and some posters well enough to know that.
What I do know is that I come here less often, spend less hours here than ever and slowly think I do better not being here
Its become a lot of bullshit and I dont know how to post with out contributing to it. So dropping out until some posters get exhausted or the team begins to move forward ( equally exhausting to watch and hope for) seems the only answer for me. Just imo
FMIC rips on me all of the time. Often with lazy work such as the ‘he ain’t from Rutgers’ routine. But, oddly, I like what he bring to BBI.
It was always a bad idea to sign a player of Tate's age to a contract of that size ($37.5M), length (4yrs), and guaranteed dollars ($23M).
And Matt M. - My apologies, I just felt that the terms he violates needed to be specifically highlighted so nobody has any doubt. I will stop now.
So too FMiC and his verbal garbage. And there is zero, zero evidence that he will stop throwing garbage up on this site just because he is ignored. Zero evidence he's wired that way at all.
On this thread, he's been abusive, he's cursed. He's told outright lies. He revealed a personal fact about my relative being a lawyer (something he really shouldn't know) and then when he found out it was my father promptly decided to suggest he "might" be a terrible lawyer.
The first time I reached out to the site about him I did say he was lying about me, I did say it was slander. I cited the specific thing and I sent information to prove he was lying. I did not threaten to sue in any way shape or form. I just asked something to be done to curb his lying. I'm not sure where the obsession over if it was literal slander or not comes from because I very much did not threaten to sue.
The second time I did threaten to sue IF he revealed my full name, he had revealed my first name and made a threatening comment. Something that I think absolutely deserves an apology given that he did in fact reveal my first name and that is an extreme step.
Besides, how does he have any idea what I said? Was he shown my communications with the site owner? Not sure why he's allowed to lie. Not sure why he's allowed to be so abusive.
I've actually apologized a few times for my conduct because I heard the feedback from other posters. bill, you and I have had our times where things have been more strained and I think we both took steps to see each others perspectives and meet in the middle. Why is he allowed to just never show any remorse, never show any effort to be less abusive. Be allowed to lie? The first time I went to the site it was because he lied about me, he has no problem lying. I just don't understand how this particular thing could possibly be allowed.
Could my behavior on this site have been much better? Absolutely. But on this thread, I've tried to be a different person than I have been. I haven't violated any of the sites terms. We are just supposed to watch this person throw garbage around? Does anyone actually believe he would stop if ignored?
I was genuinely trying to see if I remained grounded in facts on this thread, remain calm, things might go differently. I've tried many different approaches with him, there have been long periods where I ignored him but on the day let loose my first name, I wasn't having a very good day. Is this really what is being asked of people here, that he just sling crap at us day after day without us having a human moment where we sling it back?
What about new people coming to the site? Younger people? Does he come with a warning label? Not one I've seen.
I actually do care about this community a lot which is why I specifically said in the email where he revealed my first name that I did NOT want to do anything. But I was very concerned that he was going to just post my name on the internet which along with other things he's been willing to say about me feels very dangerous.
As GD said, I think everyone else on this site is willing to eat their crow when they are told they are in the wrong. And I'm willing to hear that it's not worth it for anyone for me to make any attempts to stand up for myself, or anyone to stand up for the community he has no problem polluting.
Irrespective of him, I'm not sure a strategy of ignoring problematic behavior is ever even remotely as effective as active steps to curb that behavior. A bit ponderous why people are acting like that will work but unlike him, I'd be willing to try anything to make the verbal littering stop
I will say that, I noticed you didn't address the meat of my response, that we all have a responsibility greater than ourselves. You and I differ on how to approach certain problems. We have different skill sets. There are some skill sets that I am all too acutely aware that I lack. The gentle art of persuasion is one of them. Instead of addressing that, you chose to mostly get angry with me (calling my posts "magical thinking with a veneer mathiyness" appear to be meant as a slight) and engaged in the exact behavior for which you are supposedly calling me out. Questioning the rules here and how they are applied is not the same. I have long been bothered by some bannings that seemed arbitrary and didn't seem to deserve it, and others who continually cross the line without consequences. I still believe that question is fair game, even if it applies to somebody with whom you have a personal and collegial relationship.
Also, I must point out, that I am self aware. I take responsibility for my actions. In this case, if my posts bring a pox on me so be it. I will accept those consequences. I try to do what I can to make BBI a better place. If the community doesn't like it, if I am to be shunned, banned, so be it, life goes on, I tried my best. I try not to partake in the tribalist culture (although my opinions often but not always align with one of the tribes here, as do yours). I state my opinion and move on.
I agree with you, that our world and not just BBI has devolved into tribal wars. For that, we are all the worse off for it. And yes, I have noticed who posts after victories and after losses. You will notice, that I will post after both.
Lets be clear, this is a fan site. None of us have all the information, some here may be more expert about football and may have more information than others, but none of us are fully expert in the details that go into ever aspect of a football team. None of us are privileged with the level of inside information that the people running the team have. As such, we post our opinions and we debate them. Opinions are not magical thinking. They are simply opinions. Some opinions can be supported, others not so much. I try to provide supporting information along with my opinions. I am more than willing to debate my opinions. I am more than willing to debate the supporting information. I am willing to be shown a better opinion. Many have on this board have been able to change my mind. In general, I do not attack others for their opinion. I may question the opinion, I may offer an alternative, I may provide evidence that refutes the opinion. But I don't attack for holding an opinion. In fact, I often bow out of debates when posters start piling on somebody even when they have an opinion I disagree with. I have even posted suggestions at times that folks back off even when I disagree with the OP. What I am not willing to do is to suffer ad hominem attacks. I think you will be hard pressed to find me posting such attacks other than with this one poster. There may have been a few other occasions, mostly when the post has leveled such attacks at me. I agree we should try to stay above it, but sometimes in the heat of the moment we post without fully thinking it through. I am not perfect. But ad hominem attacks are not debate and they often violate the terms of the site. I have spent significant time debating topics with you. You know that I am open to debate. In fact you are one of the posters who has changed my mind at times. Even if my mind changes, it is still all just opinion. We would all do well to keep that in mind.
As for my behavior. We are all at times hypocritical, we all make mistakes, the best we can do is to minimize it. I have admitted that I dealt with FMiC in a less than seemly manner. I can accept you calling me a hypocrite for that. It is not something I do regularly. I made an exception to achieve a goal. Admittedly my methods were poor. As I said, I am not good at gentle persuasion. I am willing to live with the consequences... If that means some people dislike me, or even if I am banned, I can live with that.
FMIC rips on me all of the time. Often with lazy work such as the ‘he ain’t from Rutgers’ routine. But, oddly, I like what he bring to BBI.
Lets just say there were some who tried to copy his style...
Also, I want to be clear, not all of what FMiC does is bad. The site needs people who are willing to call out the dumb and the BS. Just not the way he does it. And it doesn't have to be gentle, just not personal, obscene and/or harassing.
jacklachemann@yahoo.com
Again, now re read all the posts and our experiences with the idea that sometimes a person does say the truth.
I talk to you because I am rooting for you to grasp the opposing possibility.
If you think I would take up the cause of FMIC behavior in a scrum or your behavior in a scrum I don't know what to tell you...you are both fighting and reduced for it. One with a stiletto complaining about the other guy using a mallet. Do you seriously think anyone here for awhile hasn't seen a ridiculous internet fight that just gets in every one else's way?
Usually there are three options:
One is walking away 100% of the time.
The other is sending a direct confidential email via the mods and being blunt in your request that it stops.
One is a post committing to stop talking if the other guy will.
Talking to the site and rallying others to the your side without trying the man to man communication or deciding it isn't worth it just tells us who is trying to use a stiletto .
Trying to turn the discussion to my motivation is continuing to be more interested in being self righteous about fighting with FMIC than ending it by vacuum or direct deal with him.
After attempting direct conversation or making a commitment to stop, then it's fair to run for office from the wooden steps of every tavern. Worked for many a President for 100 years.
FMIC has refused to stop so far. So have you refused to end what is in your power to end.. So current tactics are not working. All I'm asking is for the more flexible and stronger poster to try another way to bring this to an end.
I know I can walk away from posting with anyone here and the site in total. So far, neither of you can.
At some point wasting time in an obsession on the internet just wastes other people's time. Internet fighting is not a fight won on points. Its won by stopping.
That's my protest. I think you can settle this with honor àbd he can't. Settling it by trying to win by debating points or appeals to the audience isn't working. Time for trying new ways to win?
Thanks.
Second, you are kidding yourself if you think I have not tried the other avenues with which you listed. I did have a conversation with Mods to get their take on things. More generally, not specifically him. If you care to know about that conversation, I will discuss it with you privately. I also made attempts to appeal to the rest of the board, in years past. That is in large part where my powers of persuasion failed me. The only item on your list that I did not try was a private conversation with him, which I know would never amount to anything, and I didn't want him to know my real identity anyway. I have always been a private person, and cautious about revealing myself online, however, there are others on this board who have threatened me physically as well. So I think you can understand my desire to remain private. It is only just today that I decided to check and see if that old account from 15 years ago still worked. Other than that, all my other email account would divulge my identity.
I'm sorry, the issue goes beyond just me and my interactions with him in the past. Believe me, I understand what you have been trying to say to me for quite some time. I got it long ago. Me ignoring him doesn't solve the problem. It may make a few posters like yourself feel a little about about me, but it fails to make the site better.
I will make you a deal. I have appealed to you directly in the pas, but I will try one more time.
For my part, I will not single you out in any of my posts. I won't as Bill2 put it, try to "rally the site to my side". However, this promise does not extend to me trying to publicly pressure the Mods into enforcing the terms of the site more fairly. But I won't use you as the example.
For your part, please, please, please, stop fighting so much with everybody. I don't expect you to stop completely. What's more is that calling out some of the dumb BS is a service you provide to the board. But please, limit yourself, try to bow out of the back and forth gracefully after 2 or 3 posts. Also, it's ok to call out the dumb, but try not to intimidate every new poster off the site. The rest of the site does that well enough already.
In addition, to the rest of the site. Bill is right, we have become too tribal. Often depending who is online, one or a small group of posters will get targeted by many. Both tribes do this. If there is too much back and forth, with many against one or two, it might be a good time to lighten up or even back away. If at any point you feel the need to say something personal and nasty, perhaps that is also time to step away. I have made this appeal to the board before and was thoroughly ridiculed, which is fine. I don't expect to reach everybody, if my words here do appeal to the better angels in any of us though, the site will be better for it. We should all feel alarmed when a poster like Bill2 is saying that he is choosing to spend less time here. We all need to look to ourselves and what we can do to make this community better.
Who is trying to kid who with that one? "I was trying to get a guy banned by addressing the Mods in my posts. Pretty personal assaults but that's not to be taken by him as me communicating. What who me? I don't talk to him anymore. I just want to make the site better."
Sorry i didn't fall off a turnip truck yesterday. That sounds like " I want my pound of flesh for being called out for the dumb parts of my posts while not being adored for the good posts"
Sounds like:
" After all, I alone should never be called out for my flawed thinking. I have papal immunity on internet sites". Now I'm not continuing it because my posts on the main site are really not supposed to be read by him when I claim to be rallying the site to write to the mods. See how he won't stop?
That important point about this noble contribution of yours aside, I do see your dilemma more clearly.
Maybe it's time to just silently ask the mods to intervene while you truly disengage for the years it takes for posters to notice the other guy has disengaged?
Sorry it just seems to take most posters that long on the internet. Funny to think one of us is allowed to be sensitive and have memories of past fights when the same handle talks about banning us. That's not to be taken as a sign of a very personal animus? That's not supposed to be read or replied to because you were really talking to the mods?
But I leave you to solve it as you see fit. You are a smart guy ànd I'm sure you can.
I hope FMIC sees all this and does his part.. I'm guessing the track record of trust the other guy will stop os pretty low (neither and both haven't stopped).
Over ànd out.
I like your last post and thank you for trying.
Balls in your court FMIC.
I get how you got here FMIC, but maybe it's time??
But I dont wish to get more drawn in. I wish to not hear, read or see more.
To me, this is all drama that gets in the way of a very interesting and important off season. Id rather see threads about Tate stay about Tate.
Advice needed,
Thanks.
Not sure how much I could hope for understanding, but perhaps we can get somewhere on rules of engagement. I think it might be too late for that but I certainly see your point especially about the mods, where perhaps I haven't done enough to put forth legit olive branches in a more direct way without reaching for the stick.
I think it is an especially good point that sometimes people speak from a moral high ground when the hill they are standing on is inches above the one they are shouting "down" from. And even that perception of height differential could be measured at varying results depending on the individuals perspective.
RE: tribalism here and that there is too much in the world... We have way too much common ground for the sticks to outnumber the carrots as much as they do here sometimes. I do think it's worth saying that I appreciate that you and some others that might slant in the other "tribe" make efforts to agree on some shared truths. Especially for those who might just be reading the site, who might be less knowledgeable in some of the areas others are. When two sides are dealing in different truths we lose even a tenuous grasp on any kind of "truth" of value.
So I will thank you for that. For your efforts to find where we can agree, even when I've overreached in moments I'm not having my best thoughts. In moments when I think we both know there are things that you and others on this site have very real interpersonal feelings on that there isn't an equivalent of for me.
I'll also use this as an opportunity to thank posters like Sean, Eric in LI, Thegratefulhead, pjcas18, arc (RIP I guess?) and others who do a good job of holding onto civility even when on different sides of the debate and not necessarily receiving it. And JonC who always seems to find a way to come in with a perspective which is measured enough that is is hard to detect much of a slant.
Even ryanmkeane who I'm pretty sure could tell you it was a beautiful day completely soaked in rain has managed to keep things civil 100% of the time to the best of my knowledge.
Regardless, the point of this is I'm happy to commit a greater effort to reduce tribalism and civility even if that means toning down my pursuit of what I feel is "right." Even if it means a willingness to call out people more in my "tribe" if I see behavior that is not helping the quality of debates. And to anyone that may have given up on trying to find middle ground with me, I hope to change your minds.
I think the beauty of smaller communities is that while faced with all the same challenges of larger ones there are ways to handle those challenges better and I'm personally committed to being part of the solution here.
And to all my fellow BBIers, I want to say that almost al, of the best posters here literally never - and I mean never- resort to personal attacks. So it can be done.
The worst part of it is that it spreads to everyone. I used to spend a part of every day on this website until one day a few years back I sent an email to Eric to delete my account. I had gone from a poster who wanted to learn and help others learn to a nasty, name calling jerk because that was the atmosphere and I adapted to fit in. I still only come on here once or twice a week at most because the toxic atmosphere is just brutal.
For what it’s worth, I think it’s important to only engage with folks who are looking to get the same thing out of BBI as I do. I’m looking to debate, learn, and enjoy chatting about football.
There are a select few folks on this site who seemingly revel in being rude, right, and controlling. It’s a strange place to flex that muscle in my view.
But acting like this is a site where people are just looking to have a kumbaya and looking to learn from one another is a lot of empty air. Posters who want to do that wouldn't pose a topic by saying people are "cap deniers".
Posters wouldn't stand beside known dupes and trolls simply because they hold a similar position. What do they do? Band against posters who hold the opposing viewpoint. I hammer against the opposing viewpoint continually. Just own that.
That's why the high road is a lonely place. A lot of people look up and say they are taking it, but it's as empty as an express lane in Butte, Montana.
It is a good observation. It has become tribal and not very different than the tribal discussions we see around politics in other places like Facebook.
Once you pick "as side", somehow people have the inability to admit (ever) that the other side has a point. It is that way when discussing politics and also that way depending on whether you like Dave Gettleman for example.
So now we have people who look for ANY opportunity to bring their skewed point of view into a discussion that has nothing to do with that topic. The derailment of what starts as a good discussion ends up sounding like every other thread
Quote:
Bill is right, we have become too tribal. Often depending who is online, one or a small group of posters will get targeted by many. Both tribes do this.
It is a good observation. It has become tribal and not very different than the tribal discussions we see around politics in other places like Facebook.
Once you pick "as side", somehow people have the inability to admit (ever) that the other side has a point. It is that way when discussing politics and also that way depending on whether you like Dave Gettleman for example.
So now we have people who look for ANY opportunity to bring their skewed point of view into a discussion that has nothing to do with that topic. The derailment of what starts as a good discussion ends up sounding like every other thread
But acting like this is a site where people are just looking to have a kumbaya and looking to learn from one another is a lot of empty air. Posters who want to do that wouldn't pose a topic by saying people are "cap deniers".
That's second time you've brought that up, and for the second time I will remind you it's a joke between DJM and I -- that he got, laughed at, and we had a nice debate about on the thread. And furthermore, do you find that to be a sensibility offending comment?
Massive false equivalency between a pretty tepid joke and your behavior. Not in the same ballpark.
No one is looking for kumbaya. You conveniently left out the part about debate. That's the heart of what most people do on BBI, debate their points of view.
Yea, welcome to the world of UFA. Guys get paid when they are FA.
He's off the books now. We can all sleep well at night.
Quote:
Only 15 WRs made more.
Yea, welcome to the world of UFA. Guys get paid when they are FA.
He's off the books now. We can all sleep well at night.
Not only that, but when you need a player at a certain position, your choices are your choices at that moment during the off season. In fact, it is worse than that because what we do not see are the players who we wanted but we were outbid and the players who simply refused to come and play for a losing franchise.
Sometimes the free agent market is a lot like the toilet paper shelves during the pandemic. You may want Charmin but you are getting store brand and at that moment, you may be paying the Charmin price for it too due to supply and demand.
Not your best.
Guys “get paid”? Yes. When you pay way too much for a guy like this the team suffers for years.
It was a terrible move and not just because of the money which was outrageous. Over 2 years he was paid like. #1 and he played like a role player (that he is).
And there is a big difference in the toilet paper example. You buy bad toilet paper once it doesn’t increase the probability that you will need to buy bad toilet paper again.
Overpaying for free agents is a known major factor in a cycle of losing seasons. If the concern is that free agents don’t want to sign with your team because it isn’t good enough, the way out is drafting well not overpaying for FAs because your options are limited.