Z is worthy as a Keep, with a possible extension/restructure for Cap Fit. I don't see keeping Both guys. Solder is expensive and "sight unseen". Together, they occupy a spot that may be more useful for another OL Draft Pick.
I'd like to see an OL Draft in the top 3 picks...an On Field/close to on-field ready player. The Giants need to bet on young OL players...and they need to add talent to increase their odds.
I also think they need to add At Least ONE professional receiver via FA....I'd like to see Samuel...maybe PLUS a "professional receiver" in FA. That allows them to draft a WR in the first 2 rounds, without the expectation/necessity of making a first year wideout the "#1". Samuel and " A Marvin Jones Type" ?
The first cuts yesterday, especially the Tate Cut, are aimed at the FA capacity---they cut Tate now becausde 6 million in cap NOW is better than 8 million in cap in June.
Cut:
Solder
Toilolo
Beal
Extend:
Zeitler for two more years lowering his 2021 cap number.
Restructure:
Bradberry moving some money into 2022 and 2023.
Resign:
Williams (top priority)
Attempt to resign Tomlinson but for a reasonable deal. If it doesn't happen it doesn't happen
Free Agent Acquisitions:
Kenny Golladay
Haason Reddick or Carl Lawson
Malcolm Brown or Marlon Mack
Xavier Rhodes on a 1 or 2 year deal
Daryl Williams
We would bring in a RT to compete with Peart, a true #1 WR (who does have some injury concerns), an young and hopefully improving edge rusher. Competent backup RB who can carry the load until Barkley comes back and a good #2 CB who can play opposite Bradberry with hopefully Holmes improving covering the slot. This would allow us to go BPA in the draft.
There are some interesting ideas here - D.Williams (RT solution), Riddick or Lawson.
But signing LW, Tomlinson and Golladay???
Two guys in that trio want top dollar for their positions and the other isn’t going to be cheap ($14Mish).
There are better, cheaper ideas available to add quantity and quality.
Give me Schuster, keep Tomlinson, let LW hit the market, add Thuney,
There has to be a plan, improvement from the draft that is demonstrated on the football field, and a cap balance/patience.
Any marquee free agent the Giants sign will have significant guarantees in years 1-3, and a signing bonus spread across the life of the contract.
The Cowboys haven’t been scared to restructure their big deals and convert salary into restructure bonuses, for immediate relief.
The Giants don’t have those big long term deals to ride. Their best bet is getting either Martinez or Bradberry to extend their deals. But that would go against their presumed preference to sign shorter deals and reach UFA again.
There has to be a plan, improvement from the draft that is demonstrated on the football field, and a cap balance/patience.
It is much different. in 2018 you had a QB that 31 teams in the NFL knew was toast, them adding pieces to make a run with Eli was stupid. We have a young QB who needs talent around him and a coach who knows how to actually coach.. unline 2018
There has to be a plan, improvement from the draft that is demonstrated on the football field, and a cap balance/patience.
Please stop being coherent. It will be disruptive to BBI.
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Yeah we're not bridging the gap on this train of thought. The Giants are far from winning a championship, shitty division or not. Failing to see the roster for what it was and trying to go for it in 2018 is why the Giants are where are they are right now. It is not much different in 2021. Now is not the time to borrow much from the future.
There has to be a plan, improvement from the draft that is demonstrated on the football field, and a cap balance/patience.
It is much different. in 2018 you had a QB that 31 teams in the NFL knew was toast, them adding pieces to make a run with Eli was stupid. We have a young QB who needs talent around him and a coach who knows how to actually coach.. unline 2018
You're unlikely to get the boost needed on offense from UFA. Just look at the list of availables, consider the UFA cost, and the answer's clear. Now is not the time to borrow extensively from the future, it makes little sense.
and to talk about extending him? that's crazy talk. he was bad two years ago and ok this year. he's only going to get worse with age.
play hernandez and lemiuex or sign someone good and younger for the money they are paying zeitler. it's a no brainer.
only option with zeitler to me would be a straight pay cut
Yes, Zeitler should stay until they have an adequate replacement on the roster. Solder won’t be missed, unfortunately.
The rest should be some bargain shopping - I'd be looking for TE (Manhertz form Panthers), maybe a CB, possibly an RB.
Team is getting better but they need more talent. Big spending in FA might help improve team but not a smart way to build
He's got to go.
Use that money to sign Thuney or D. Williams. Which for the same price will give them versatility and more than just "professionalism".
The Giants need a 2005-like offseason, signing impact free agents. Now is the time to be aggressive and start making a run.
You're unlikely to get the boost needed on offense from UFA. Just look at the list of availables, consider the UFA cost, and the answer's clear. Now is not the time to borrow extensively from the future, it makes little sense.
Here is the push-back on this - Daniel Jones.
The clock is ticking on his expiration date and we need to see if he's got the goods to be the QB. So we just need more infantry for him, which is going to involve more cap investments...
It would be surprising if they didn't get a bonafide #1 WR in here somehow.
It would be surprising if they didn't get a bonafide #1 WR in here somehow.
yea in the draft. they are going to have shep and slayton who will play. that leaves room for 1 more WR in base packages
It would be surprising if they didn't get a bonafide #1 WR in here somehow.
I'm not ignoring, but I do think that player isn't available. The WRs that could be are warts city, and that's where we shouldn't volunteer spending big UFA dollars. It's the crux of the debate.
Who is that player? Golladay? Nope. Robinson? Not really. Godwin? He's getting tagged, I wager. Corey Davis? Headcase. Rinse and repeat.
1st - I don't think the "big 3" will all make it to the open market
2nd - other teams with more cap space are also going to be shopping for that limited crop of players
I also have serious concerns about the Waddle/Smith (what's the difference between those guys and Shepard/SLayton) and Pitts (1st rd TE bust at an outrageous rate).
I know that the priority of this offseason seems to be getting DJ some offensive weapons - but when I look at the options - I feel like they're trying to shove a square peg into a round hole.
1st - I don't think the "big 3" will all make it to the open market
2nd - other teams with more cap space are also going to be shopping for that limited crop of players
But the offensive challenges could be solved with other material investments outside of acquiring a true #1 WR, and I'm just spit-balling here, with:
-- A Thuney or a Trent Williams to bolster the OL
-- A Schuster, Samuels, Bourne, Watkins, etc combo to upgrade WR.
It's just as important in 2021 in finding out what we have in Daniel Jones as it is to winning.
Because of his uninspiring play, we are in a very tough spot...
I do think we need to bring in the proverbial”professional “ wr along with draft a WR in first two rds
Heck I am down with another wr in mid rds too
If there is real depth in the draft at war, use it
To help out jones though, we need a vet also. Someone to hit the ground running
Who knows how quickly a rookie adapts
Would be fine with waddle, Wyatt Davis wr and TE in first 4 rds
Fill in defense with a couple mid tier FA moves
Martinez was a meh move when I first read it, turned out much better than I expected
Bradbury surpassed expectations too.
I know we all want to see the Giants make significant and strategic additions during UFA, but retaining LW and adding some veteran depth is going to eat much of the cap space they open up. Maybe they let Tomlinson go and sign an Edge or a second tier WR.
I agree, but I would not be surprised if Solder believes he can get a better deal in FA than he will from the Giants when they request a pay cut. In other words, Solder will refuse the Giants pay cut offer so that the Giants will be forced to cut him, and then he'll sign somewhere else.
I can see the Giants extending Zeitler to 2022 so that they are not stuck with only one OG (Lemieux) if they decide not to offer Hernandez a 2nd contract.
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You're unlikely to get the boost needed on offense from UFA. Just look at the list of availables, consider the UFA cost, and the answer's clear. Now is not the time to borrow extensively from the future, it makes little sense.
Here is the push-back on this - Daniel Jones.
The clock is ticking on his expiration date and we need to see if he's got the goods to be the QB. So we just need more infantry for him, which is going to involve more cap investments...
That's correct. And while you may not like the free agent WRs available or the ones that will be drafted in Rounds 1 and 2 that is where this team is going to invest. This front office think long term plans are 12 months long.
And picking Daniel Jones at #6 and now realizing he needs far more talent around him to see if he can win (good/bad/indifferent) isn't a good place to be in, but that's the GM/Front Office we have making decisions...
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winning the #1 WR prize this year is going to be darn near impossible.
1st - I don't think the "big 3" will all make it to the open market
2nd - other teams with more cap space are also going to be shopping for that limited crop of players
But the offensive challenges could be solved with other material investments outside of acquiring a true #1 WR, and I'm just spit-balling here, with:
-- A Thuney or a Trent Williams to bolster the OL
-- A Schuster, Samuels, Bourne, Watkins, etc combo to upgrade WR.
It's just as important in 2021 in finding out what we have in Daniel Jones as it is to winning.
Because of his uninspiring play, we are in a very tough spot...
THE more I think about it - the more I like the idea of Thuney. His versatility would really play nice here.
AND i doubt he'll cost more than Zeitler's 14.5 mil.
Use the draft to fix the WR position. There will be plenty of talent across the entire draft.
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In comment 15166701 Dnew15 said:
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winning the #1 WR prize this year is going to be darn near impossible.
1st - I don't think the "big 3" will all make it to the open market
2nd - other teams with more cap space are also going to be shopping for that limited crop of players
But the offensive challenges could be solved with other material investments outside of acquiring a true #1 WR, and I'm just spit-balling here, with:
-- A Thuney or a Trent Williams to bolster the OL
-- A Schuster, Samuels, Bourne, Watkins, etc combo to upgrade WR.
It's just as important in 2021 in finding out what we have in Daniel Jones as it is to winning.
Because of his uninspiring play, we are in a very tough spot...
THE more I think about it - the more I like the idea of Thuney. His versatility would really play nice here.
AND i doubt he'll cost more than Zeitler's 14.5 mil.
Thuney will likely be costlier. Probably around $16M AAV. But you are paying a premium for younger and better. And for a position of need, IMV.
These 2 are very expensive and not in the long-term plans.
Agree. If DJ isn't the goods we'd hope for, then don't invest a ton "now" in expensive FA's. The window will be there in a couple of years if DJ is the goods.
Then spend the $$$ on fancy FA'a
Do not re-sign: Tomlinson
Restructure (some combination of): Shepard, Martinez, Bradbury
Sign (with some structured as lower 1st year cap hits): Leo Williams, Corey Davis (don't know if will be able to get one of ARob,Godwin, or Golladay), One of Thuney/Scherff/Gabe Jackson/Daryl Williams, one of Van Noy or solid tier 2 CB2.
Draft: top 3 rounds 1WR, 1OL, 1Edge or CB (depending on what we did in FA)
Cut:
Solder
Toilolo
Beal
Extend:
Zeitler for two more years lowering his 2021 cap number.
Restructure:
Bradberry moving some money into 2022 and 2023.
Resign:
Williams (top priority)
Attempt to resign Tomlinson but for a reasonable deal. If it doesn't happen it doesn't happen
Free Agent Acquisitions:
Kenny Golladay
Haason Reddick or Carl Lawson
Malcolm Brown or Marlon Mack
Xavier Rhodes on a 1 or 2 year deal
Daryl Williams
We would bring in a RT to compete with Peart, a true #1 WR (who does have some injury concerns), an young and hopefully improving edge rusher. Competent backup RB who can carry the load until Barkley comes back and a good #2 CB who can play opposite Bradberry with hopefully Holmes improving covering the slot. This would allow us to go BPA in the draft.
Cut: Solder, Zeitler, Toilolo, Core.
Trade: Engram
FA Signings:
DL - Leonard Williams
TE - Hunter Henry
DE - Trey Hendrickson
OLB - Nicholas Morrow
Draft:
G - RD 1 - Slater
WR - RD 2 - Take Best Avail WR.
T - Rd 3 - Best avail Tackle
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On offense have to give Jones and Barkley your best shot. Have to see what they can do. TE's are very important too. Can get a quality WR in Rd 2. As for guards - unknown if Hernandez and Lemieux are any good and Zeitler is too expensive. Potential disaster up the middle if Zeitler continues to decline and both LG's stink. So draft the young guard.
On Defense--
Expect Lawrence to continue to improve and be a major impact. Along with LW - and with Martinez it will be hard run on them. And add Hendrickson now you have more of a pass rusher. And add in Morrow a very good cover OLB and you've just made your defense quicker with a combo of improved pass rush and cover capability.
Left Guard: Will Hernandez/Shane Lemieux - (Solder)
Center: Nick Gates/Spencer Pulley/Casey Kreiter
Right Guard: Kevin Zeitler/Kyle Murphy
Right Tackle: Cameron Fleming/Matt Peart (Solder)
We've got some in the pipeline, but it's a long season and if a guy or two goes down...we're F'd. Don't get me wrong, Solder is mostly done, but a year off and a pay cut would make sense as well as keeping Zeitler at his current or negotiated salary.
When it's hard to find the diamonds in FA OL positions, and you'll have to pay them too, I'm not sure it makes sense to just cut any of ours without considering OL depth....and our own Cam Fleming is on the list for exposure which doesn't help things either....but:
Best available OL FA's per ESPN/PFF
1) Brandon Scherff, Washington Football Team
2) Joe Thuney, New England Patriots
3) Trent Williams, San Francisco 49ers
4) Corey Linsley, Green Bay Packers
5) Alex Mack, Atlanta Falcons
6) Russell Okung, Carolina Panthers
7) Cameron Fleming, New York Giants
8) Alejandro Villanueva, Pittsburgh Steelers
9) Lane Taylor, Green Bay Packers
10) Cameron Erving, Dallas Cowboys
Best FA OL Avail - ( New Window )
This line was healthy last year so one or two injuries is going to make Jones pine for the 2020 line.
If you cut both and say, 'we'll sign quality guys' Cam Fleming types cost like $4 million. So your cap savings gets eaten up by bringing in veteran backup guys.
Cutting Solder post June 1 has the same dead money in 22 if you held onto him this year so that cut makes more sense next year if the Giants can sign everyone else they need to with his current salary.
This line was healthy last year so one or two injuries is going to make Jones pine for the 2020 line.
If you cut both and say, 'we'll sign quality guys' Cam Fleming types cost like $4 million. So your cap savings gets eaten up by bringing in veteran backup guys.
Cutting Solder post June 1 has the same dead money in 22 if you held onto him this year so that cut makes more sense next year if the Giants can sign everyone else they need to with his current salary.
So are you saying Hernandez is done? If you can't rely on him at all then why keep him? You have to give him another year to see what he can do, don't you? And if you are going to give him another year-- it means you have to play him, right?
In terms of Solder- what depth did he provide last year? SO whether you keep Fleming or get anyone else - he's not near as expensive, right?
In terms of Peart- you have no confidence in him? You took him in the 3rd round, and he played decent last year, didn't he? So back to the bench? You have to play him and see what you have, don't you? Or is he project and just stick him on the bench for another 2 years?
I'm all for cutting and drafting younger cheap players.
And isn't it more important to worry about if you have quality players rather than worry about depth? The backup player you want in depth is a reason why he is the backup.
Zeitler and Solder are questionable performers too but they are very expensive.
This line was healthy last year so one or two injuries is going to make Jones pine for the 2020 line.
If you cut both and say, 'we'll sign quality guys' Cam Fleming types cost like $4 million. So your cap savings gets eaten up by bringing in veteran backup guys.
Cutting Solder post June 1 has the same dead money in 22 if you held onto him this year so that cut makes more sense next year if the Giants can sign everyone else they need to with his current salary.
The problem we may be facing with this group of OLs, unfortunately, is that outside of Thomas and Gates the rest of the players may be best suited for back-up roles. There were some decent signs from Lemieux and Peart, but not enough, IMV, that should give anyone confidence they are NFL quality starters at this point.
Hell, Judge can't get the OL coach right - yet.
So that likely leaves with a situation to find three quality starters. I mean, JFC, when will this nightmare of trying to build a good OL end??
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Cutting both gives the line absolutely no depth. You are relying on Hernandez and Peart stepping up to become adequate starters with no decent backups behind the line.
This line was healthy last year so one or two injuries is going to make Jones pine for the 2020 line.
If you cut both and say, 'we'll sign quality guys' Cam Fleming types cost like $4 million. So your cap savings gets eaten up by bringing in veteran backup guys.
Cutting Solder post June 1 has the same dead money in 22 if you held onto him this year so that cut makes more sense next year if the Giants can sign everyone else they need to with his current salary.
So are you saying Hernandez is done? If you can't rely on him at all then why keep him? You have to give him another year to see what he can do, don't you? And if you are going to give him another year-- it means you have to play him, right?
In terms of Solder- what depth did he provide last year? SO whether you keep Fleming or get anyone else - he's not near as expensive, right?
In terms of Peart- you have no confidence in him? You took him in the 3rd round, and he played decent last year, didn't he? So back to the bench? You have to play him and see what you have, don't you? Or is he project and just stick him on the bench for another 2 years?
I'm all for cutting and drafting younger cheap players.
And isn't it more important to worry about if you have quality players rather than worry about depth? The backup player you want in depth is a reason why he is the backup.
Zeitler and Solder are questionable performers too but they are very expensive.
Not saying Hernandez can't revert back to his better self or Peart step up but that's a lot of wishful thinking for 2/5 of the line.
The NFL is a war of attrition, having quality backups and depth is paramount to success. Hoping for no injuries is not a good strategy.
The cowboys got burned big time last year. No line depth and injuries to their starters left them a very porous line.
The difference between Fleming last year and this year is that Solder didn't cost the Giants anything last year. You cut him or Zeitler and part of your cap savings is going to spent on a replacement.
And if the giants are cutting one or both to use cap savings to re-sign Williams and Tomlinson, o-line is going to be more of a question mark this year than last year.
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Cutting both gives the line absolutely no depth. You are relying on Hernandez and Peart stepping up to become adequate starters with no decent backups behind the line.
This line was healthy last year so one or two injuries is going to make Jones pine for the 2020 line.
If you cut both and say, 'we'll sign quality guys' Cam Fleming types cost like $4 million. So your cap savings gets eaten up by bringing in veteran backup guys.
Cutting Solder post June 1 has the same dead money in 22 if you held onto him this year so that cut makes more sense next year if the Giants can sign everyone else they need to with his current salary.
The problem we may be facing with this group of OLs, unfortunately, is that outside of Thomas and Gates the rest of the players may be best suited for back-up roles. There were some decent signs from Lemieux and Peart, but not enough, IMV, that should give anyone confidence they are NFL quality starters at this point.
Hell, Judge can't get the OL coach right - yet.
So that likely leaves with a situation to find three quality starters. I mean, JFC, when will this nightmare of trying to build a good OL end??
If you don't play them then how are you ever going to know?
And isn't it better to find out as quick as possible?
Before last year what was Gates? No we're all referring to him as mainstay.
Very little is ever assured.
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Cutting both gives the line absolutely no depth. You are relying on Hernandez and Peart stepping up to become adequate starters with no decent backups behind the line.
This line was healthy last year so one or two injuries is going to make Jones pine for the 2020 line.
If you cut both and say, 'we'll sign quality guys' Cam Fleming types cost like $4 million. So your cap savings gets eaten up by bringing in veteran backup guys.
Cutting Solder post June 1 has the same dead money in 22 if you held onto him this year so that cut makes more sense next year if the Giants can sign everyone else they need to with his current salary.
The problem we may be facing with this group of OLs, unfortunately, is that outside of Thomas and Gates the rest of the players may be best suited for back-up roles. There were some decent signs from Lemieux and Peart, but not enough, IMV, that should give anyone confidence they are NFL quality starters at this point.
Hell, Judge can't get the OL coach right - yet.
So that likely leaves with a situation to find three quality starters. I mean, JFC, when will this nightmare of trying to build a good OL end??
Not with the aggregate approach that DG has used for the last 3 years.
Just sayin'. Using FA and trades for aging vets isn't going to get it done.
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In comment 15167431 BH28 said:
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Cutting both gives the line absolutely no depth. You are relying on Hernandez and Peart stepping up to become adequate starters with no decent backups behind the line.
This line was healthy last year so one or two injuries is going to make Jones pine for the 2020 line.
If you cut both and say, 'we'll sign quality guys' Cam Fleming types cost like $4 million. So your cap savings gets eaten up by bringing in veteran backup guys.
Cutting Solder post June 1 has the same dead money in 22 if you held onto him this year so that cut makes more sense next year if the Giants can sign everyone else they need to with his current salary.
The problem we may be facing with this group of OLs, unfortunately, is that outside of Thomas and Gates the rest of the players may be best suited for back-up roles. There were some decent signs from Lemieux and Peart, but not enough, IMV, that should give anyone confidence they are NFL quality starters at this point.
Hell, Judge can't get the OL coach right - yet.
So that likely leaves with a situation to find three quality starters. I mean, JFC, when will this nightmare of trying to build a good OL end??
If you don't play them then how are you ever going to know?
And isn't it better to find out as quick as possible?
Before last year what was Gates? No we're all referring to him as mainstay.
Very little is ever assured.
Normally, I would agree. But these aren't normal times because we have an even bigger question mark at QB.
So do you want to continue to surround Jones with question marks when he needs to perform in this critical third year of his contract?
I can't imagine you feel that is a firm yes...
I also have serious concerns about the Waddle/Smith (what's the difference between those guys and Shepard/SLayton) and Pitts (1st rd TE bust at an outrageous rate).
I know that the priority of this offseason seems to be getting DJ some offensive weapons - but when I look at the options - I feel like they're trying to shove a square peg into a round hole.
You really can't see a difference between Shepard/Slayton and Waddle/Smith?
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In comment 15166713 bw in dc said:
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In comment 15166701 Dnew15 said:
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winning the #1 WR prize this year is going to be darn near impossible.
1st - I don't think the "big 3" will all make it to the open market
2nd - other teams with more cap space are also going to be shopping for that limited crop of players
But the offensive challenges could be solved with other material investments outside of acquiring a true #1 WR, and I'm just spit-balling here, with:
-- A Thuney or a Trent Williams to bolster the OL
-- A Schuster, Samuels, Bourne, Watkins, etc combo to upgrade WR.
It's just as important in 2021 in finding out what we have in Daniel Jones as it is to winning.
Because of his uninspiring play, we are in a very tough spot...
THE more I think about it - the more I like the idea of Thuney. His versatility would really play nice here.
AND i doubt he'll cost more than Zeitler's 14.5 mil.
Thuney will likely be costlier. Probably around $16M AAV. But you are paying a premium for younger and better. And for a position of need, IMV.
He might be costlier in AAV but cheaper in 2021 cap hit. And being younger and better makes all of that a win/win, IMO. I don't mind having a larger cap number on him in 2022 and beyond if his play on the field justifies it and elevates the entire OL.
Secondly, where do we think Giants are going this year? Everything has to break exceptionally well for them to be a title threat, correct? In other words a 50-1 shot? SO what is that you’re losing by seeing what Hernandez and Peart can do?
The NFL is also a war of talent and timing (funding) of said talent. If you don’t have enough talent you aren’t going to win. And because there is a defined cap limiting money can be sent on resources, then the most money must be spent on the better players and not on mediocrity. AT bets Zeitler is mediocre but trending downward. And Solder is worse.
In terms of attrition – that’s why you draft players. It’s why you can get Slater in rd 1. And it’s why you can draft other in other rounds. And you get them for cheap. And then you can spend your resources on better players that will actually produce. That’s superior than continuing to hold on to mediocrity (or worse) by keeping both Zeitler and Solder.
IMO if you were to draft Slater in rd 1, and at least draft in either rd 2 or 3 another OL, then with what they drafted if they can’t improve – then you might as close the doors until you get a new GM and scouting staff.
IN FA get – Leonard Williams, TE Hunter Henry, DE Trey Hendrickson, and OLB Nick Murrow.
In the 1st 3 rounds take all offense- a guard, a tackle and a WR.
And if you can’t rely on your draft picks—then what’s the point? This isn’t a superbowl team yet so you have to play the younger players to see what they can do instead of worrying what they can't do.
And if they think he’s fine then not every OL player needs to be a star.
And with that said, if GMEN were to draft say Slater with the 11th pick, isn’t that an improvement over Zeitler assuming he’s a guard? And if GEN were to draft an OT in rd 2 or 3 – is that an improvement over Fleming?
So for a team not going to the Superbowl anyway, won’t we have a solid year to evaluate BOTH Jones and Barkley if we do this? Its critical—sure. But another year you can make a very good evaluation with an improved OL.
Whether Jones proves to be good or not then you still have already built up at minimum 3/5’s of an OL if not 4/5’s. Thus even if Jones proves to be no damn good you have something up front for another quality QB to work with - becasue all the OL ARE YOUNG.
And this improved OL should be able to show off Barkley. If he doesn’t show some terrific performances- then the following year you know he is not the guy to spend so much on.