When does our window open? Is it this year? Is in 2022? Do we need a new regime? When should we be expecting playoff caliber football?
Curious about this. Seeing people talking about RB be a need makes me think some people must think we're ages away from competing. I'm wondering what the expectations of success are out there on BBI...
Can they make a deep playoff run? Very unlikely.
I expect anywhere from 5-11 to 8-8.
WFT will likely be better. Dallas won't play the majority of the year with a backup QB (Prescott is back or they have another vet QB). Philly will likely be in full rebuild mode.
Resign L Williams
Resign Tomlinson (unless he wants a King's Ransom)
Sign a true FA #2 WR (few true FA #1 WRs will be available and the price will be too high)
Sign a mid price vet on a 1 yr deal for CB #2.
Sign a mid price vet on a 1 to 2 yr deal at OG and RT.
Sign a mid price vet Edge / OLB.
Draft DL, Edge or CB at #11 (Chase will be gone; Alabama receivers have too low a floor).
Draft 2nd round WR or TE
Draft 3rd round TE, WR or whatever defensive position was drafted in the first round.
Rounds 4 and 6. BPA at WR, Edge, OL or TE.
I expect anywhere from 5-11 to 8-8.
So a regression from 2020?
Why a regression?
The OL SHOULD improve. Jones SHOULD improve. The D should be as good or even better.
Shouldn't poke the bear, but I can't resist.
There's a lot of reasons to think the Giants will be improved, if you base things on how teams progress. Sure you could be right, but it is going to take a lot of bad luck for this team to be worse in 21 than it was in 20. I don't think they even need to be lucky to improve. They will improve organically, without one single addition, in my view.
It really is astounding to me how fans miss this simple aspect of the NFL. The line between winning and losing is so fine, it's literally one play here or one play there. Why did the 2000 Giants score so many more points than the 99 team? Tiki got better. Collins was there all year and the team just played a little bit better early on, then got some confidence later on and got on a roll.
Just about every team in this league is one player away.
Well, to be fair, using your logic, you would say this about basically any QB in history through their first 2 seasons, save for a few.
skins? ok sure. We can't beat them out?
Philly? Right.
Look at every team, not just the Giants. Giants don't have to better than everyone, they just have to be good enough to get by. I think they showed signs last year but they need to field a better offensive roster and they can't have the same awful start in 21 that they have suffered 3 straight seasons now.
To me, all eyes are on September-October. No more bullshit. These 0-5 starts have to go. 2-3 is fine.
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The QB and OC aren't particularly good; that alone is enough to undermine a roster that's strong elsewhere...let alone one as weak as the Giants'.
I expect anywhere from 5-11 to 8-8.
So a regression from 2020?
Why a regression?
The OL SHOULD improve. Jones SHOULD improve. The D should be as good or even better.
Shouldn't poke the bear, but I can't resist.
That's not a regression. It's about the same.
The Giants faced 6 backup QBs in 2020 (going only 3-3). Are they going to face that many backup QBs again?
The division was awful - Giants went 4-2 in division. Is NFC East going to be awful again? Are the other three teams all going to deal with quarterback issues again?
And what is this statement based on?
Why? Further, the OL and Jones can improve and still both remain among the worst in the league at their respective positions.
I like Judge a lot. I feel bad for him that every Sunday he is sent into a gunfight with a butter knife. My biggest fear is that the incompetence above him is going to eventually result in him being scapegoated.
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The QB and OC aren't particularly good;
Well, to be fair, using your logic, you would say this about basically any QB in history through their first 2 seasons, save for a few.
So most QBs weren't good through their first two seasons except for the ones who were?
To me, 2021 is one of the most critical year in this team's history. We have to start turning the corner for real AND, to me more vitally, the verdict on Jones has to be delivered.
Too soon to ask the question.
To take the next step to a legit contender, they have a number of holes to fill - ER, #2 CB, probably 2 WR's, and another OL. That's a lot to do in 1 off season.
Never can tell. The crappy 2019 Giants beat the hell out of the Seahawks!
You have to prove on the field.
No more benefit of the doubt.
No more words or press conferences.
Show me on the fucking field by winning games that matter.
Nothing else means shit.
I don't care if they seem to "win" the offseason on paper.
Smoke and mirrors.
Dominate a team from beginning to end.
Show me the results or STFU.
Can't quite see a path to get playoff level better on defense and offense.
I think repeating the mantra that Jones has to improve dramatically is a table setter for a 1000 posts looping back to favorite themes rather than how it "has" to be looked at in 2021.
I think his improvement over 2021 and 2022 is absolutely but so much around him has to improve I don't know that we can isolate his particular stay or cut status until the end of 2022.
Right now imo the offense is not fixable in one off season. Hard to believe, but that's what I think.
I also point out that a concentration on getting great on defense requires better special teams if we want to get to the playoffs in even a weak division. Most of all it delays any semblance of an adequate offense. Even the 86 Bears and 90 Ravens could at least run when they had to againstall commers and under adverse pressure. We get running yards but not when we have to against a playoff defense.
All in all, I don't see us competing yet despite whatever W-L record accumulates via week or injured opponents
Too soon to ask the question.
some of which were against teams starting backup QBs too. goterps is spot on with his prediction and analysis
problem is the GM needs to win now supposedly to save his job so the team is back in a spot where they shouldn't be
I do think somewhere between 6-10 and 10-6 is probably reasonable, and my guess would be closer to the former. On the defensive side of the ball is it reasonable to expect Bradberry to put up a 2nd consecutive All Pro type year, or is he closer to a 20-30th CB in the league? Is it reasonable again to expect Leonard Williams to put up another career year for him and match 11.5 sacks? I'd love to think both of their progressions will be a linear upward trajectory, but I don't think it's fair or reasonable to the player to just expect it. They both had tremendous seasons. What happens to the D if they don't replicate that, and we use all of our ammo this offseason on the offensive side of the ball?
I do think our offense improves based on the simple fact that Barkley is returning and he's one of the more dynamic players in the league, but to what end do we improve? The key to the whole offensive machine is Jones, and we've seen both the good and the bad.
even if he brings in good players, they run the worst offensive system in the league with garrett
For the 2020 season, Eli retired, a new, young, dynamic yet unproven head coach was brought in. A major rebuild, in spite of any formal public pronouncements, finally commenced.
Then COVID hit, especially hurting teams which had changed head coaches. For teams with head coaches without NFL (or any) head coaching experience, it was especially difficult.
The roster at the end of the 2019 season still contained many players from the former GM. The efforts of the current GM were moderately successful at best. How much of the lack of success was due to the aforementioned "one more playoff run for Eli" is unknown.
So I see 2020 as year 1 of a "serious rebuild". Yes, it's year 3 of the current GM, but I remain optimistic about re-signing key current players, adding several moderate / minor pieces in free agency, drafting quality football players in the draft, picking up some "street free agents" and undrafted players.
I believe enough of the coaching staff in key areas is above average. The offense in 2020 gets an "incomplete" due to the early Barkley injury, but should be "on notice" if significant improvements aren't evident the first quarter of the season or so.
So yes, the Giants can compete in 2021, but it's really year 2 of a 3 to 4 year rebuild.
Just move on to another team, please. They will appreciate your support.
As to the OP, I have no idea what will happen. I have no idea what their plan will be to build the team. I hope they have a plan.
The defense is sustainable if they re-sign LW. Thank heavens they were able to keep Patrick Graham one more season.
The offense cannot get much worse. They were arguably the least talented group in the NFL.
Just move on to another team, please. They will appreciate your support.
As to the OP, I have no idea what will happen. I have no idea what their plan will be to build the team. I hope they have a plan.
The defense is sustainable if they re-sign LW. Thank heavens they were able to keep Patrick Graham one more season.
The offense cannot get much worse. They were arguably the least talented group in the NFL.
that's a very poor way to look at things. some of us are huge fans of this team who don't have rose colored glasses on and are angry w the team for continuing to do dumb things over and over again. we are not fair weather fans.
Just move on to another team, please. They will appreciate your support.
As to the OP, I have no idea what will happen. I have no idea what their plan will be to build the team. I hope they have a plan.
The defense is sustainable if they re-sign LW. Thank heavens they were able to keep Patrick Graham one more season.
The offense cannot get much worse. They were arguably the least talented group in the NFL.
So we should avoid reality just on the grounds that it's unpleasant?
Another solid draft and good value signings and we should win 9-11 games and the division. That’s my expectation.
the giants served notice that they’re an ascending team.
are they a super bowl contender? not yet - not until jones proves he’s of that meddle. but i’m surely not going to assert he’s not when he’s shown a lot of positives.
but you asked if they could contend for the playoffs and given that they just did despite their youth, it seems clear they can compete as soon as this autumn...
And lets put aside the fabulous team runs of 2007 and 2011 seasons and that you just have to make it to playoffs and anything can happen.
Those rosters were far better than this one even without knowing who they may sign in FA and pick in the Draft. Far better.
Another solid draft and good value signings and we should win 9-11 games and the division. That’s my expectation.
Lol.
Yeah we figured out he was a bad coach when he was here. His win-loss record as a head coach is like 19-50 or something within that awful neighborhood.
The landscape changes from week to week let alone year to year. Midway through last season, when the Giants were outplaying Tampa (short of a couple missed opportunities), nobody was saying the Bucs had a shot at the Super Bowl. And when the Giants beat Seattle it wasn't a fluke, they were the better team that week.
If things go their way it could be the Giants in the Super Bowl next year. And all the naysayers will be pointing out the Black Swan that they claim nobody could've predicted. As if Super Bowls 42 and 46 were predictable.
There's a lot of reasons to think the Giants will be improved, if you base things on how teams progress. Sure you could be right, but it is going to take a lot of bad luck for this team to be worse in 21 than it was in 20. I don't think they even need to be lucky to improve. They will improve organically, without one single addition, in my view.
One thing to keep an eye on, and I know that you're a loyal enough fan to have seen this yourself - when a good defense has to prop up a really bad offense over a long period of time (including more than one season), they start to wear down. Sometimes it's mental/emotional, sometimes it's physical/fatigue, but eventually, if the offense can't keep the D off the field and put up points themselves, the defense starts to crumble a little bit at a time.
I have a ton of faith in Judge and Graham, and I believe in the talented core on the defensive side of the ball. I just don't know how long they can hold up without some help from the offense. Hopefully Barkley's return plus some reinforcements on the line and some additional playmakers can make enough of a difference, but that's going to be TBD until we see it.
1) Thomas and Gates improve and neither regress.
2) They sign or draft two more above average OL at LG, RG or T.
3) Jones is not in the top 5 for turnovers at the QB position.
4) They sign LW and bring in one more impact player on D. (Could be their #1 pick)
5) They find better ways to use Saquon Barkley to get his yards per touch up. Faulk in the years the Rams were great had 7.1, 6.6. and 6.3 yards per touch. Barkley has been 5.8, 5.4 and 3.8. If he can get closer to 6.5 we will be a different team IMO.
6) Get a big bodied receiver that Jones can throw into single coverage with to get him out of tough situations where he otherwise might take a sack.
It's a tall order but I don't think anything short of this will do
10-6.
Division Champs.
The defense, on the other hand was strong, but it felt like the team heavily relied on a bit of smoke and mirrors to create a strong pass rush as well as career years from Williams and Bradberry. I trust Judge/Graham a ton when it comes to their vision on the defensive side, but I don't think this team replicates last year's defensive performance unless we bring back Wiliams + add atleast 1 impact EDGE or CB to the team.
This is the NFL, all it takes is for a handful of players to exceed expectations including your QB, and you can go from 6 wins to 9+ wins. It's still way too early to say what kind of team the Giants will be next year, but Judge does seem like he has them going in the right direction.
He's got to turn the corner from being brought down by his surroundings, and bring up his surroundings.
There's a recent first round QB, who's 8 games over .500, 64% completion rate, nearly 2:1 TDs:Int. -- and he's days away from not having a job.
You've got to be a lot better than that to be a consistent winner, who's not a mark.
Two wildcards for me are Jones and Judge. Can Judge elevate expectations and follow through? If you listened to him last year it was more about the process. Next step is raising expectations.
A slightly improved Jones may win a division anything more will require a huge step up.
Imo things are looking up. I have concerns with Jones but I see it coming together elsewhere.
So to me, 2023 - 2025 should be our window. I think the coaching staff aligns with that certainly. I believe DJ aligns with that but obviously if that is a mistake then I'm wrong about our window.
Not sure if our front office can manage the roster in alignment with that though, specifically replacing key players that don't last into that window with sufficient replacements.
So to me, 2023 - 2025 should be our window. I think the coaching staff aligns with that certainly. I believe DJ aligns with that but obviously if that is a mistake then I'm wrong about our window.
Not sure if our front office can manage the roster in alignment with that though, specifically replacing key players that don't last into that window with sufficient replacements.
Right now, our front office has its hands full in determining whether the franchise tag they gave out a year ago was to a Defensive Tackle or a Defensive End.
I ma sure they will move onto this whole "window thing" right after that is over...
-2nd year for the staff and first real offseason
- Year 3, DJ should improve. Not learning a new offense on Zoom calls this year will help
- Saquon, who offense was built around, is back
- Young Ol like Gates, Thomas, Lemieux will improve
- likely won’t be playing street FA’s like Sheard and UDFA’s like Lalos at EDGE rusher with return of Carter/Ximines
- full year of McKinney, Holmes getting some seasoning
- hopefully adding some weapons and not relying on a washed up Tate, CJ Board and whatever else they had last year
As for losing guys like Zeitler and possibly Dalvin due to the cap, this is something almost every NFL is dealing with.
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The QB and OC aren't particularly good; that alone is enough to undermine a roster that's strong elsewhere...let alone one as weak as the Giants'.
I expect anywhere from 5-11 to 8-8.
So a regression from 2020?
Why a regression?
The OL SHOULD improve. Jones SHOULD improve. The D should be as good or even better.
Shouldn't poke the bear, but I can't resist.
Why "SHOULD" the OL improve?
Why "SHOULD" Jones improve?
Improvement year over year is not a guarantee. In again vets it is almost certainly going to be the opposite, their play will degrade from year to year. You guys don't always respond to coaching, or to NFL training for whatever reason. It is not a guarantee that they improves. Exhibit A is Hernandez. He had a decent rookie season, but has gotten worse every year thereafter.
Until a player proves it on the field, you simply cannot rely on year over year individual player improvement. It's an unknown variable. There are no "SHOULD"s. Should's don't count. If they did, then hey, I SHOULD have won that $660M powerball! Please pay me!
Another solid draft and good value signings and we should win 9-11 games and the division. That’s my expectation.
What "young talent who a lot of fans wanted to give up on magically started playing better under Judge"? Please name them! And naming rookies or players in their first year with the Giants don't count, because you saud young talent that fans wanted to give up on. That would mean they had to be here for a while for us to give up on them.
What young talent brought in in 2018 or 2029 played significantly better?
Jones?
Barkley?
Carter?
Ximines?
Hernandez?
Baker?
Love?
Connelly?
D.Slayton?
Ballentine?
Asafo-Adjei?
C.Slayton?
Hill?
Lauletta?
McIntosh?
About the only one you can argue for magic improvment is Gates. But nobody was giving up on him. He showed flashes. The only questions were could he make the switch to center successfully? That is never a given.
You can argue D.Lawrence. Nobody was giving up on him, and his play was fine, but about the same in both years.
So please, enlighten me and enumerate the "young talent who a lot of fans wanted to give up on magically started playing better under Judge".
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In comment 15166908 Go Terps said:
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The QB and OC aren't particularly good; that alone is enough to undermine a roster that's strong elsewhere...let alone one as weak as the Giants'.
I expect anywhere from 5-11 to 8-8.
So a regression from 2020?
Why a regression?
The OL SHOULD improve. Jones SHOULD improve. The D should be as good or even better.
Shouldn't poke the bear, but I can't resist.
Why "SHOULD" the OL improve?
Why "SHOULD" Jones improve?
Improvement year over year is not a guarantee. In *aging* vets it is almost certainly going to be the opposite, their play will degrade from year to year. *Young* guys don't always respond to coaching, or to NFL training for whatever reason. It is not a guarantee that they improves. Exhibit A is Hernandez. He had a decent rookie season, but has gotten worse every year thereafter.
Until a player proves it on the field, you simply cannot rely on year over year individual player improvement. It's an unknown variable. There are no "SHOULD"s. Should's don't count. If they did, then hey, I SHOULD have won that $660M powerball! Please pay me!
bah, typos... Sorry...
Fixed above
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a lot of our young talent who a lot of fans wanted to give up on magically started playing better under Judge. I think Shurmur was way way worse than we even thought during his tenure.
Another solid draft and good value signings and we should win 9-11 games and the division. That’s my expectation.
What "young talent who a lot of fans wanted to give up on magically started playing better under Judge"? Please name them! And naming rookies or players in their first year with the Giants don't count, because you saud young talent that fans wanted to give up on. That would mean they had to be here for a while for us to give up on them.
What young talent brought in in 2018 or 2029 played significantly better?
Jones?
Barkley?
Carter?
Ximines?
Hernandez?
Baker?
Love?
Connelly?
D.Slayton?
Ballentine?
Asafo-Adjei?
C.Slayton?
Hill?
Lauletta?
McIntosh?
About the only one you can argue for magic improvment is Gates. But nobody was giving up on him. He showed flashes. The only questions were could he make the switch to center successfully? That is never a given.
You can argue D.Lawrence. Nobody was giving up on him, and his play was fine, but about the same in both years.
So please, enlighten me and enumerate the "young talent who a lot of fans wanted to give up on magically started playing better under Judge".
Let's keep playing this game and extend it to 2017 new arrivals... Which of these players "magically started playing better"
Engram?
Tomlinson?
Webb?
Gallman?
Moss?
Bisnowaty?
Tomlinson has been consistently good but not great, he didn't really improve. Also, nobody gave up on him. Most would like to have him back if possible.
Gallman finally got playing time because Barkley was hurt, it's really hard to say if he improved, or just got more time. I don't think anybody was giving up on him or looking to run him off the team.
Engram... LOL
Peppers also played better on the other side of the ball.
The big jump in play was from the new veterans.
Peppers also played better on the other side of the ball.
The big jump in play was from the new veterans.
agreed
ANd I don't think enybody ever gave up on Gate. I think there was some frustration with Peppers, but I don't think most gave up on him after only 1 season.