But not likely given his salary. Other teams would would have interest if released.
I fully understand La Conforas track record lol just wanted to pass on. Also i think a poster of BBI could speculate that if the giants had a trade partner, they’d rather do that than cut Zeitler out right.
Maybe they can extend him a year and split his current salary guaranteed this year and next year.
Should be solid come September 2035.
Maybe they can extend him a year and split his current salary guaranteed this year and next year.
Other than the guarantee, why would he do that? I think KZ is a bit overpaid at his current cap number, but he'd almost certainly get at least that over two years on the open market, IMO, and potentially more.
It feels like if we're going to extend KZ, it will likely involve additional money (although I'd expect that extra money to reside in 2022, and then we're having this same conversation a year from now).
He makes $14M and saves 12M.
They can’t do this...
‘21 $7M
‘22 $10M
‘23 $11M
Just cut Zeitler or will they try to restructure his deal?
Takes 2 to tango... he might not want to restructure/extend. Might have to just cut him.
Nothing to that Bills trade rumor I presume?
But I guess you have to free up money somehow
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next move should be to trade Engram for whatever we can get for him. Doing so saves us $6M.
Nothing to that Bills trade rumor I presume?
Not when your "source" is "Incarcerated Bob." I still think there's a chance Engram could be traded, especially on draft day.
The Giants only have six picks. Given their institutional aversion to trading down, trading players is the only other way to get more picks. Gettleman has also already done so twice, with JPP and OBJ.
Or to sign LW and a #1 WR
But I guess you have to free up money somehow
Giants can free up 40 mil easy. If they want to be buyers this season. Restructure shep. Extend peppers and trade engram. On top of cutting the bloat zit?er solder and dixon.
Me too.
Wrong side of the line. They should make room for Trent Williams or Daryl Williams and Joe Thuney.
Keeping both LW and DT is very unwise.
There is too much at stake with Jones. We're at DefCon 1 with his situation...so we can't have anymore excuses and need to bring in infantry to see if he's the guy.
Strengthen the defense and build on that unit which was strong last year. Make some supplemental moves on offense & let’s see what Jones can do.
I agree his track record is poor, but this does make sense.
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LaConfora
I agree his track record is poor, but this does make sense.
Well, what’s that about a blind squirrel? :)
Strengthen the defense and build on that unit which was strong last year. Make some supplemental moves on offense & let’s see what Jones can do.
Hey, you are preaching to the converted regarding what Jones should be able to do. But I don't think he's close to that level. At best, he's probably more of a game manager/game manager ; so we need to determine if that's even the case. And in 2021.
Look, we need more point per game. It's that simple. That's how you win. So the offense needs to start getting there. And that's a 26ppg threshold.
I'm at the point where I only care about four things with the D: cover corners, good tackling, great team speed, and big fat, immovable DTs to stuff the A and B gaps. I care less and less about getting sacks from high priced players. I trust a guy like Graham to scheme it up with athletes and speed.
So I don't want to waste cap money on the LW's of the world - off of only one top year - for a skill I'm not sure we really need.
He makes $14M and saves 12M.
They can’t do this...
‘21 $7M
‘22 $10M
‘23 $11M
Just cut Zeitler or will they try to restructure his deal?
He has to want to. His deal is plenty good for him right now.
Strengthen the defense and build on that unit which was strong last year. Make some supplemental moves on offense & let’s see what Jones can do.
I don't even disagree with you, but the decision is made. They have jones. They need to know as soon as they can what he is, and another year with a bad offense and no help around him is a waste year going into a contract year.
IMO that's it, almost exactly. They will move Zeitler (or just cut him) to make room for Williams AND Capt. Dalvin.
Same money +/-, but Dalvin is now the better player, as well as young and ascending, whereas Zeitler is perhaps starting to fade.
So maybe the mystery of Lemieux getting snaps over Hernandez was an investigation of the possibility of moving on from Zeitler?
They must feel pretty good about a Hernandez + Lemieux duo at OG if they are really shopping Zeitlee.
Still not crazy about a Hernandez/Lemieux tandem but there would be opportunities to upgrade. They have very limited draft resources and a boatload of holes but there will be a few starting caliber players in that 28-31 age range cut due to the salary cap Covid quirk. Carefully picking your spot there and retaining the DL is preferable to paying any of the WRs or edge players available.
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The idea of Hernandez and Lemieux is scary.
Maybe they can extend him a year and split his current salary guaranteed this year and next year.
Other than the guarantee, why would he do that? I think KZ is a bit overpaid at his current cap number, but he'd almost certainly get at least that over two years on the open market, IMO, and potentially more.
It feels like if we're going to extend KZ, it will likely involve additional money (although I'd expect that extra money to reside in 2022, and then we're having this same conversation a year from now).
Honestly I doubt he’d get more than $14 million guaranteed by anyone. He’s been at best average since he’s been here. His play has definitely on a downward trend since 2017.
If the Giants offer him $14 million guaranteed over the next two years and he says no, then they should move on.
Is that rhetorical?
Is that rhetorical?
bad cap management
Is that rhetorical?
By misevaluating the roster. When you think you're close, but you're really not, you spend where you're not supposed to.
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How does a team with 5 wins per year have so many contract-related problems?
Is that rhetorical?
By misevaluating the roster. When you think you're close, but you're really not, you spend where you're not supposed to.
Apologies...close to what?
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In comment 15167210 Jimmy Googs said:
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How does a team with 5 wins per year have so many contract-related problems?
Is that rhetorical?
By misevaluating the roster. When you think you're close, but you're really not, you spend where you're not supposed to.
Apologies...close to what?
I feel like this is covered ground, but all of this started when they jumped in with both feet trying to extend Eli's career by patching holes with duct tape. A series of decisions made with the idea that they didn't have to tear things down and make some uncomfortable decisions.
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In comment 15167221 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 15167210 Jimmy Googs said:
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How does a team with 5 wins per year have so many contract-related problems?
Is that rhetorical?
By misevaluating the roster. When you think you're close, but you're really not, you spend where you're not supposed to.
Apologies...close to what?
I feel like this is covered ground, but all of this started when they jumped in with both feet trying to extend Eli's career by patching holes with duct tape. A series of decisions made with the idea that they didn't have to tear things down and make some uncomfortable decisions.
Agreed. They tried to build around Eli long after they should have stopped trying to do so.
:-)
Maybe they can extend him a year and split his current salary guaranteed this year and next year.
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The idea of Hernandez and Lemieux is scary.
Maybe they can extend him a year and split his current salary guaranteed this year and next year.
The idea of them at OG is not scary for the running game. The passing game is another story. But, perhaps with better guys alongside them, they both improve.
I’ve seen it speculated here that if we part ways with KZ, Gates could slide over from Center to OG and that a vet OC could take his spot. Something also to keep an eye out for.
Also, some of you have not listened to DG and are clearly sleeping on Pio. ;-)
I've been saying that a blood bath is coming for weeks, and I don't need an anonymous GM to tell me that. The cap situation around the leagues is all you need to know.
There is going to be a glut of aging but still viable vets that are going to be released to get teams down under the cap. These types of vets, including Zeitler are not in a a good negotiating position. High supply, low demand. They are not going to get anything close to their current contracts. I've said this before and I will say it again, I seriously doubt Zeitler is going to see more than 6M this year.
If the Giants need a veteran guard of similar quality, there will several available on the market at that price or lower.
Re: bw's comment about putting resources toward the offense. I tend to agree bw. Scoring under 20ppg is absurd in today's NFL. Its a shock they won 6 games. I would look to pick up as a priority (premium draft or cheap vet FA on 1 year deals) 2 or 3 more OL, a corner who can start, also as priority but lesser so a TE and WR. I'd like to see resign one of LW or DT (I doubt they can keep both), but this is not the year to break the bank for either.
Lol, exactly. They’ll probably sign him to an 11 year extension tomorrow.
And last year's OFA OL Kyle Murphy could most likely play guard, too.
So it's not like they haven't stockpiled Guards so they can part ways with Zeitler if they need to do so.
There’s no reason to cut or extend Zeitler now. They should wait out 1) how things evolve with Williams 2) if they can land a high talent interior lineman in UFA.
It’s quite cut throat, but if the Giants hold tight and wait for some money to dry up in the market, they’ll have more leverage for Zeitler to take a pay cut.
Our last four drafts have led off with an offensive player in the first round. They are all still on the roster: Engram, Barkley, Jones, Thomas. Those four guys have to be the pillars of the offense; they have to carry it and make the players around them better. The coaches have to scheme ways to maximize the talents they were drafted for. It's time to see the ROI on that side of the ball.
There’s no reason to cut or extend Zeitler now. They should wait out 1) how things evolve with Williams 2) if they can land a high talent interior lineman in UFA.
It’s quite cut throat, but if the Giants hold tight and wait for some money to dry up in the market, they’ll have more leverage for Zeitler to take a pay cut.
Agreed the Giant's should wait as long as possible. He might have make room for the rookie cap though.
Our last four drafts have led off with an offensive player in the first round. They are all still on the roster: Engram, Barkley, Jones, Thomas. Those four guys have to be the pillars of the offense; they have to carry it and make the players around them better. The coaches have to scheme ways to maximize the talents they were drafted for. It's time to see the ROI on that side of the ball.
For this reason I want Surtain or Farley at 11. I think we could build a lights out secondary with a good CB opposite Bradberry.
Bradberry
Surtain/Farley
Holmes
Ryan
Peppers
McKinney
We kicked the can down the road with OBJ's contract as well. It's two or three fold now and get's complex with what we gave up in OBJ/Vernon "contracts" and what was gained in Z and Pepper's + a 17th and 95th.
2019
Gone:
OBJ - $$$ contract, good riddance, dodged a bullet here
Vernon - $$$ FA - above avg player, solid starter, I think we dodged a bullet here also
Gained:
Zeitler - +avg player now, but a starter for some teams (like ours)....and we got his contract as well, bit the bullet on this one
Peppers - ++cheapish contract (I think), seems pretty good at times. Not a starter but contributes in other ways
Pick #17 - ++Lawrence - great prospect and on the cheap
Pick #95 - ++Ximines - verdict still out (health?) but is on the cheap, great prospect
2019 Draft:
Pick #6 - +Jones, verdict still out
#30 - Baker, Bust, wasted pick - WHICH IS COSTLY
#108 - Love, meh, but he was 108 overall
#143 - ++Connelly, seams solid in some situations, lost in others. Verdict still out.
We unloaded a couple of huge(potential) contracts and got some great return in the scope of things. I'm ok with keeping Zeitler. We'll need him this year if not for depth.
Solder on the other hand....He's got to go or take a huge pay cut, then he'll just add depth.
If we don't trade him then I think he is being cut. We need money to sign some guys- LW, maybe DT and a WR. I think the draft is going to be OL, TE and LB.
Could be, but I also think the long term effects of Covid on ones breathing and endurance has something to do with it too.
I'd keep Zeitler, IF he agreed to a two year 8 Million extension . Make 10.5 Million of this year's 12 million a signing bonus. Guaranty that and his 1.5 this year. So he ends up with a three year $20 Million deal with $12 Million guaranteed which is about his market and we get $7 Million in cap relief this year.
More likely he is cut and signs a 1 year prove it deal with some offensively challenged franchise.
Why? Age? 31/32 y/o is really not old for a guard, so I am dismissing that. Has it been his center and RT in 2019(plus shitty coaching) and the RT in 2020, plus Gates early play?
$14.5 mill is too much for what he does, I agree. But he is easily the best guard on the team.
Ok what to do. I think they keep him for now. Watch the FA list and look for a good vet guard that was released in a cap move and try to sign one for a deal worth a lot less than Zeitler's $12 mill 2021 salary.
I think Lemieux has a chance to develop and have no idea what is happening with Hernandez. Lemieux has good feet, so there is no reason he should be getting beat on stunts - he is quick enough to make the switch. He should be significantly stronger next season.
Sy'56 is right, the line is still an issue that needs to be resolved before camp. Andrews is LT, I think Lemieux will be LG, Gates is C, ?? at RG and ?Peart? is RT. Someone suggested picking up a vet OC in FA and moving Gates to RG. Gates has Rich Seubert written all over him, so I can see that as a viable move.
1. Does anyone else in the league put more value on him then they do? Could they get a pick back instead of just cutting him.
2. It will show if anyone else would pay him 12 million a year. When nobody would it makes him taking a pay cut or reduced $ extension more rwalistix in his eyes since the whole NFL juat told him he isnt getting that kind of money. Kind of like he gets to test FA before accepting a pay cut.
Why? Age? 31/32 y/o is really not old for a guard, so I am dismissing that. Has it been his center and RT in 2019(plus shitty coaching) and the RT in 2020, plus Gates early play?
$14.5 mill is too much for what he does, I agree. But he is easily the best guard on the team.
Ok what to do. I think they keep him for now. Watch the FA list and look for a good vet guard that was released in a cap move and try to sign one for a deal worth a lot less than Zeitler's $12 mill 2021 salary.
I think Lemieux has a chance to develop and have no idea what is happening with Hernandez. Lemieux has good feet, so there is no reason he should be getting beat on stunts - he is quick enough to make the switch. He should be significantly stronger next season.
Sy'56 is right, the line is still an issue that needs to be resolved before camp. Andrews is LT, I think Lemieux will be LG, Gates is C, ?? at RG and ?Peart? is RT. Someone suggested picking up a vet OC in FA and moving Gates to RG. Gates has Rich Seubert written all over him, so I can see that as a viable move.
Dont like moving Gates as Plan A. Would prefer to sign a replacement RG (cutting Hernandez and zeiteler if needed). Then look to the draft for G/C that can push Lemuix, Gates and our new RG.
1. Does anyone else in the league put more value on him then they do? Could they get a pick back instead of just cutting him.
2. It will show if anyone else would pay him 12 million a year. When nobody would it makes him taking a pay cut or reduced $ extension more rwalistix in his eyes since the whole NFL juat told him he isnt getting that kind of money. Kind of like he gets to test FA before accepting a pay cut.
We all know Zeitler is not getting $12 mill per from any team in the NFL if he was let go...
Hernandez was being saved from "were and tear" last season?
Dont like moving Gates as Plan A. Would prefer to sign a replacement RG (cutting Hernandez and zeiteler if needed). Then look to the draft for G/C that can push Lemuix, Gates and our new RG.
Of course that would be plan A to replace Zeitler with a cheaper FA vet, but Gates would be a hell of a RG.(I like him at center - nasty boy).
I guess it is a slow news week at BBI
trying to trade him (or pretending to) makes perfect sense, IF they're trying to muscle a pay cut out of him. I don't think he gets close to 14 mil guaranteed on the open market, so simply restructuring his current salary into bonus should not be the approach to take.
If KZ is getting released because they are targeting some other type of strategic OL move in free agency or early in the Draft then I could give his some leeway.
But if this is just a "hey, we screwed up moment and KZ is kind of expensive so we will just allocate his money to an immediate need and figure it out later" type of moment then its really a ridiculous side-show in that front office...
if hernandez was kept on the bench for reasons other than his play i reckon it was due to covid, not to save him wear and tear. one would presume they'd want to get him reps if their plan is to move him from LG to RG. but who knows. thomas's improved play later in the season correlated with lemieux taking over for hernandez.
Hernandez is an OK guard certainly not an All Pro but a better all around guard than Lemieux.
Do the Giants have a need at OG in the draft? A big YES.
Look the Giants can manipulate Zeitler's cap hit for 2021. Time for Abrams to do his thing.
As far as the OL in free agency I would try to sign Daryl Williams RT from the Bills to a fair contract.
I really like the Notre Dame OG Banks in the draft.
Still alot of work to do on the OL.
I may be in the minority but I would keep Zeitler in 2021 at a reduced cap hit.
The ultimate game manager, the G.O.A.T. Just won the Super Bowl again.
He's most likely to be cut. Zeitler cut, Hernandez takes his place on that side. Solder as well.
He's most likely to be cut. Zeitler cut, Hernandez takes his place on that side. Solder as well.
If you want to cut Zeitler to save the money that is OK, but don't tell us Hernandez is the replacement. He has stunk for 2 years running. You put Hernandez in at RG and this line takes a huge step back and puts Jones's is a bad situation. How is that progress? To cut Zeitler the goal is to come up with a cheaper and just as good if not better replacement. You can't go backwards.
Keeping high priced veterans that arent playing at the level of their salary does nothing to help the roster.
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Who for sure can we say is a bonafide above average O lineman when zeitler gets cut ? Nick Gates? I see all the stats about how Jones gets pressured in less than 3 seconds. Making the OL worse should help that. This roster is a mess
Keeping high priced veterans that arent playing at the level of their salary does nothing to help the roster.
Nor does signing veterans to unreasonable contracts that result in the same effect. But as you suggest the Giants know more about the NFL than anybody in this thread so that is already a given.
It's not like they have a replacement around.
As I am saying this, I also feel they should cut ties
with Solder. I would make both Tate & Solder, post June 1st
cuts, more bang for their salary cap dollar.
Our last four drafts have led off with an offensive player in the first round. They are all still on the roster: Engram, Barkley, Jones, Thomas. Those four guys have to be the pillars of the offense; they have to carry it and make the players around them better. The coaches have to scheme ways to maximize the talents they were drafted for. It's time to see the ROI on that side of the ball.
...I just like quoting that movie.
Good post!
The Giants have a bottom 5 roster and that might be generous since their best defensive player last year probably their best player period, isn't under contract. Another top 5 defensive player last year isn't under contract and the Giants are right against the cap limit with a QB on his rookie deal.
His "thing" like almost everything else surrounding the Giants Front Office sucks.
If KZ is getting released because they are targeting some other type of strategic OL move in free agency or early in the Draft then I could give his some leeway.
But if this is just a "hey, we screwed up moment and KZ is kind of expensive so we will just allocate his money to an immediate need and figure it out later" type of moment then its really a ridiculous side-show in that front office...
They shouldn't have to cut Zeitler to sign Williams, but vet players on the last year of a big free agency deal tend to find themselves extended or cut.
There's a decent glut of veteran Guards on the market already and that's before the expected blood letting which many in the league reckon will happen the moment the cap is set. Zietler's cap hit is just simply not an effective use of resources.
The Giants have a bottom 5 roster and that might be generous since their best defensive player last year probably their best player period, isn't under contract. Another top 5 defensive player last year isn't under contract and the Giants are right against the cap limit with a QB on his rookie deal.
His "thing" like almost everything else surrounding the Giants Front Office sucks.
You have to separate what a cap guy does vs a GM. The cap guy's job is retain flexibility for the team. Cap spending is essentially accounting, the GM sets the value of a contract the cap guy squeezes the value of the contract into the structure of the cap (generally most teams view the cap in a shifting 3 year window)
While the Giants front office isn't great, from where I'm sitting Abrams tends to structure the contracts sensibly with relatively easy outs after the first 2 years (he often front loads) and while the product on the field isn't great, he manages to utilise almost all the cap every year without any major dramas.
Ultimately though if the GM is spending Porsche Money on junkers that's not the cap guys fault, all the cap guy is there to do is make sure the team can make the payments and pay rent.
And for the record I don't want Abrams anywhere near the GM role.
The Giants have a bottom 5 roster and that might be generous since their best defensive player last year probably their best player period, isn't under contract. Another top 5 defensive player last year isn't under contract and the Giants are right against the cap limit with a QB on his rookie deal.
His "thing" like almost everything else surrounding the Giants Front Office sucks.
Abrahms manages the cap. And he's done well in that capacity. If you think the Giants are in poor shape in regards to the cap, you're probably yet another poster who judges cap success by how much money a team is under the cap.
Which means you probably think the more money you get back on taxes is managing your deductions better.
The Giants have a bottom 5 roster and that might be generous since their best defensive player last year probably their best player period, isn't under contract. Another top 5 defensive player last year isn't under contract and the Giants are right against the cap limit with a QB on his rookie deal.
His "thing" like almost everything else surrounding the Giants Front Office sucks.
Abrams doesn't give out the contracts he only does the numbers.
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Interesting. What is his "thing"?
The Giants have a bottom 5 roster and that might be generous since their best defensive player last year probably their best player period, isn't under contract. Another top 5 defensive player last year isn't under contract and the Giants are right against the cap limit with a QB on his rookie deal.
His "thing" like almost everything else surrounding the Giants Front Office sucks.
You have to separate what a cap guy does vs a GM. The cap guy's job is retain flexibility for the team. Cap spending is essentially accounting, the GM sets the value of a contract the cap guy squeezes the value of the contract into the structure of the cap (generally most teams view the cap in a shifting 3 year window)
While the Giants front office isn't great, from where I'm sitting Abrams tends to structure the contracts sensibly with relatively easy outs after the first 2 years (he often front loads) and while the product on the field isn't great, he manages to utilise almost all the cap every year without any major dramas.
Ultimately though if the GM is spending Porsche Money on junkers that's not the cap guys fault, all the cap guy is there to do is make sure the team can make the payments and pay rent.
And for the record I don't want Abrams anywhere near the GM role.
Lets keep it fair, the cap guy and the GM had better be on the same page before anybody is getting signed up to a deal. This isn't just two offices on different floors that meet once a week on a Zoom call.
Good save with the last sentence though!
There’s no reason to cut or extend Zeitler now. They should wait out 1) how things evolve with Williams 2) if they can land a high talent interior lineman in UFA.
It’s quite cut throat, but if the Giants hold tight and wait for some money to dry up in the market, they’ll have more leverage for Zeitler to take a pay cut.
Waiting for money to dry up also means, theoretically, that some of the players the Giants might like to use additional cap space on would be unavailable, they having been parties to the drying of the market.
I wonder if the Giants could, however, effectively disregard their rookie salary pool during the early part of free agency, and then squeeze KZ after the first (or even second) wave of signings to restore the cap room they'll need for draft picks and/or bargain FAs?
okay I get that... but stickes here are usually reserved for FACTS and deals that have actually occurred. Not a hypothesis regardless of whether it is plausible.
Cutting Zeitler will be a clean process, with clear unambiguous savings. The Giants just need to file the papers with the league on his termination, before they file new papers on any acquisition.
They can come to terms with a new player, and just cut Zeitler before they email in the new contract.
It's shitty, and they probably won't do it to Zeitler, but they can.
The front office runs more like a business than a football team. Somewhere Kevin Abrams and crew are running financial models with all the traditional performance management metrics any other company uses. Sure the Giants have different capital but certain fundamentals exist across all businesses.
With Hernandez and Lemieux appreciating and Zeitler depreciating at a heavy cost, they have likely concluded Zeitler's piece of the pie can be more efficiently used elsewhere. It has nothing to do with Tomlinson in particular and more to do with properly running a business.
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because the team has to create space just to sign it's own then that's absolutely egregious. A team that has won about 5 games per year mind you, struggles on the OL already and has no credible replacement on the roster at Right Guard as of yet.
If KZ is getting released because they are targeting some other type of strategic OL move in free agency or early in the Draft then I could give his some leeway.
But if this is just a "hey, we screwed up moment and KZ is kind of expensive so we will just allocate his money to an immediate need and figure it out later" type of moment then its really a ridiculous side-show in that front office...
They shouldn't have to cut Zeitler to sign Williams, but vet players on the last year of a big free agency deal tend to find themselves extended or cut.
There's a decent glut of veteran Guards on the market already and that's before the expected blood letting which many in the league reckon will happen the moment the cap is set. Zietler's cap hit is just simply not an effective use of resources.
Definitely agree with you regarding the last year of larger deals in majority of cases. And I am not advocating extending Zeitler, but unless the Giants OL has become a model of stability and I missed it then I wouldn't be in any rush of using current OL monies to fix other problems on the roster.
At the very least, let free agency play out a little bit to see and negotiate with some of this glut of Guards before Zeitler is turned loose.
This screams of being between a rock and hardplace at the negotiating table with Williams...
The front office runs more like a business than a football team. Somewhere Kevin Abrams and crew are running financial models with all the traditional performance management metrics any other company uses. Sure the Giants have different capital but certain fundamentals exist across all businesses.
With Hernandez and Lemieux appreciating and Zeitler depreciating at a heavy cost, they have likely concluded Zeitler's piece of the pie can be more efficiently used elsewhere. It has nothing to do with Tomlinson in particular and more to do with properly running a business.
Yes I realize monies are fungible and cap models should be run and looked at wholistically. However, there are typically only a few roster players each year that make a material impact in the decision making process of keep/cut/restructure. You can look for $ under every rock but lets call a spade a spade here.
Also see my previous post on this topic as to the sensitivity of the OL right now...
Cap maneuverability seems more a function of the GM's decisions since Abrams is sort of just the henchman from my viewpoint. Dead money on Odell in 2019 and Tate this upcoming year is DG's fault, not Abrams'.
Maybe I'm wrong.
I find trench players are breaking down earlier. You have outliers like Whitworth and Peters but seems a lot of them start going downhill at 30 which Zeitler is.
Someone said Abrams needs to do his "thing". Trust me I understand how the cap works and how a cap manager for a mom and pop shop like the Giants operates as much as anyone who doesn't see NFL financials can.
You can spin it any way you want to until you're twisted into an adhesive tape pretzel. The Giants roster is horrible and they are right up against the cap. That doesn't mean have to mean doom for 2021 but right now those are the facts.
A simple question: Is it better to be $40M under the cap or up against it?
A simple question: Is it better to be $40M under the cap or up against it?
With a roster this bad? $40M under.
With a strong roster assembled by a competent front office led by a GM who isn't an incompetent buffoon? Up against it.
A simple question: Is it better to be $40M under the cap or up against it?
No, here's a simple question...
What did Arniefez post that was so out of line that you had to go and take a ridiculous and unnecessary jab as to his overall financial acumen?
A simple question: Is it better to be $40M under the cap or up against it?
100% matters on the quality of your roster, the distribution of contracts, and where you are in your competitive window.
A simple question: Is it better to be $40M under the cap or up against it?
coming off of 4 losing seasons, 3 of which resulted in Top 10 draft picks and now picking 11th?
I should hope to hell $40M under.
Cap space rolls over. being up against the cap for the sake of being up against the cap isn't a thing anymore.
When cap space did not roll over, sure. But it's long outdated thinking and the way you continue to peddle it around here while talking down to others is cringe-worthy. Tough to watch.
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can manage your taxes any way you'd like. I'm not giving advice - I'm saying your take on the cap is terrible.
A simple question: Is it better to be $40M under the cap or up against it?
coming off of 4 losing seasons, 3 of which resulted in Top 10 draft picks and now picking 11th?
I should hope to hell $40M under.
Cap space rolls over. being up against the cap for the sake of being up against the cap isn't a thing anymore.
When cap space did not roll over, sure. But it's long outdated thinking and the way you continue to peddle it around here while talking down to others is cringe-worthy. Tough to watch.
But the thing is - the cap isn't static. Being "up against the cap" isn't just a snapshot of today. Look at where we are projected to be in 2022, 23, and 24.
Being up against the cap isn't the issue. It is having the flexibility to create space, which is the situation we are in today.
You guys can't just say that since we're a bad team, we need to be well below the cap. It doesn't work that way - because to build a good team, contracts need to be staggered. The Jags, Jets and Bengals being well under the cap doesn't mean they will be good next year or the year after, it means they have mismanaged their cap, leaving them with a ton of money, and if they spend that money, it will still have to be in the form of well structured contracts.
There's no doubt that if we were $40M under the cap, there'd be some of you bitching that we are cheap bastards that aren't spending enough. When the team is losing, it is a no-win situation with some of you. The entire team stinks and nothing is good.
What I don't understand is a guy who will die on the hill almost 7 days a week to defend 15-33 and close to the worst roster in the NFL today - granted pre FA and the draft for 2021. But don't ever change it would be boring here without you.
Teams with the most amount of cap space since you could rollover $$$ - starting in 2011 haven't fared very well.
Less than 20% of the top 5 teams in cap space made the playoffs the following three years. The highest percentage of playoff teams came from those with between $10M and $20M in cap space.
What I don't understand is a guy who will die on the hill almost 7 days a week to defend 15-33 and close to the worst roster in the NFL today - granted pre FA and the draft for 2021. But don't ever change it would be boring here without you.
And yet I don't understand posters who spend hours a week on this site and continually bitch about the team they follow.
Hell, you bitch about management of every team you follow, including an unhealthy obsession with hating Brian Cashman.
You don't understand people supporting the team they follow because you are a miserable fuck towards all the teams you follow.
I asked that exact question two years ago, and warned that more shitty football was coming because the organization wasn't making real changes. And here we are, with more shit every Sunday in the fall.
When is it ok to be critical?
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I also understand that the Giants have very few high paid players going forward and can pretty much sign almost anyone they want to if they're willing to push money forward. That is not how they've operated in the past very often and not an excuse for being up against the cap right now.
What I don't understand is a guy who will die on the hill almost 7 days a week to defend 15-33 and close to the worst roster in the NFL today - granted pre FA and the draft for 2021. But don't ever change it would be boring here without you.
And yet I don't understand posters who spend hours a week on this site and continually bitch about the team they follow.
And yet you spend hours a week on this site and continually bitch about the fans that bitch about the team they follow...
I asked that exact question two years ago, and warned that more shitty football was coming because the organization wasn't making real changes. And here we are, with more shit every Sunday in the fall.
When is it ok to be critical?
Terps you clearly don't understand the rules. You are only allowed to complain if you can't make the case that the Giants are 2-3 years away from competing. John Mara could shoot Bradberry on the 50 yard line at halftime and you'd have people coming here to talk about how optimistic they are about the change in ownership and how it opened up cap dollars for us to bring in a new impact player.
Teams with the most amount of cap space since you could rollover $$$ - starting in 2011 haven't fared very well.
Less than 20% of the top 5 teams in cap space made the playoffs the following three years. The highest percentage of playoff teams came from those with between $10M and $20M in cap space.
You're treating cap space as though it's a contributing factor to making the playoffs. Isn't it much more likely that teams who are closer to the cap have more talent on their roster than teams who have the most available cap space?
The issue isn't the Giants being close to the cap. The issue is being close to the cap with such a mediocre roster.
But before the contract was finalized, the bonus structure was tweaked. The Giants instead gave Bradberry a $3 million 2020 roster bonus and a $9 million signing bonus. Roster bonuses count fully against the cap in the year that they’re earned, while signing bonuses are amortized over the life of the contract.
The change made no difference to Bradberry: He was due $12 million within days of signing the contract under either structure. But the change lowered his cap hit for 2020 to $10 million, while bumping it up to $17 million in 2021 and $16.5 million in 2022.
Similarly, Martinez’s three-year, $30.75 million contract initially included a $10 million roster bonus in 2020 and no signing bonus. That structure resulted in cap hits of $14 million in 2020, $8.3 million in 2021 and $8.5 million in 2022. But the Giants switched to a $4 million roster bonus in 2020 to go with a $6 million signing bonus. As a result, his 2020 cap hit dropped to $10 million before jumping to $10.3 million in 2021 and $10.5 million in 2022
The Giants were up against the cap last year and looked like in final negotiations pushed a difference of $10M in these two contracts from 2020 to 2021 and 2022. Those two contracts alone are costing us and extra $5M this year where our team really needs more money than it has with so many holes. Traditionally teams that have been as bad as we have the last X number of years would like to be far less strapped against the cap than we are THIS year. I think this is what we keep bumping up against. A lot of talk about how we will do better but when you look at what we spend and what we get year after year it doesn't look good for us.
A snag in Giants’ talks with Leonard Williams? Could team pursue Kyle Van Noy? - ( New Window )
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to look at.
Teams with the most amount of cap space since you could rollover $$$ - starting in 2011 haven't fared very well.
Less than 20% of the top 5 teams in cap space made the playoffs the following three years. The highest percentage of playoff teams came from those with between $10M and $20M in cap space.
You're treating cap space as though it's a contributing factor to making the playoffs. Isn't it much more likely that teams who are closer to the cap have more talent on their roster than teams who have the most available cap space?
The issue isn't the Giants being close to the cap. The issue is being close to the cap with such a mediocre roster.
Link - ( New Window )
It must be awesome to be so omniscient in the ways all others will think in future, alternate circumstances.
You realize you just made up a perspective for a group imaginary people, and then got mad it, right?
There are people on this very thread referencing the record of the past few years.
What part of "the entire team stinks and nothing is good" is a mischaracterization of how others feel and continually post about it?
There are people on this very thread referencing the record of the past few years.
What part of "the entire team stinks and nothing is good" is a mischaracterization of how others feel and continually post about it?
Please point us to this group of people who would complain if the Giants were 40M under the cap and who think nothing is good.
This is why a declining number of posters take you seriously.
There's no need to make up some wild boogieman perspective no one holds, and pair it with an (exaggerated, but) defensible perspective.
I asked that exact question two years ago, and warned that more shitty football was coming because the organization wasn't making real changes. And here we are, with more shit every Sunday in the fall.
When is it ok to be critical?
I agree with you. The organization has been shit since 2011 sans one year when the defense stood in its head to propel us into the playoffs.
We lied to ourselves about Eli's ability to perform at a high level OR refused to make the change due to the potential for a fan mutiny.
We can point to decisions made by both Gettleman and Reese over the past 10 years. However, the true culprit here is John Mara. He set us back with the horrible coaching decisions that he made.... and possibly some of his input on the various first round selections (only a hypothesis there).
A lot goes into putting a productive team on the field. I know we had issued with strength and conditioning with the record breaking soft tissue injuries during a stretch. We also had to question our analytics and technology too.
When you combine all of these things with poor player selections, questionable head and assistant coaching selections, poor play calling, preparation and game plans... you end up with a garbage performance on the field.
I do think Joe Judge was the right guy for us. I think he is starting to figure this out and hopefully will have decision making power when it comes to player selections. Now, we need a new offensive coordinator.
I'd prefer Hendrickson over Tomlinson.
Did you notice that most teams in the right quadrants had found the right solution to QB?
Zeitler is a solid player, but with the reduced cap, we need the cap room if we want to resign Leonard Williams and Dalvin Tomlinson.
The are a few teams with a decent amount of cap space.
For example, the Jets may be willing to trade one of their 5th round picks (ironically one from NYG) for Zeitler.
They need to keep Sam Darnold (or new QB) upright and Zeitler also provides veteran leadership for their oline.
The Jets already have a healthy swag of draft pick, losing a 5th round pick won't be a problem.
1. Sign Patriots backup OL Jermaine Eluemunor. He can play both Guard and Tackle.
The Giants hope Peart can start at RT,Eluemunor provides competition and insurance at both tackle and guard.
2. Draft a mid round guard, possibly someone like Ben Cleveland.
There are people on this very thread referencing the record of the past few years.
What part of "the entire team stinks and nothing is good" is a mischaracterization of how others feel and continually post about it?
What part of that is a mischaracterization of the team itself?
Lmao thats the dumbest shit ive ever heard. The giants roster is worse than jets? Jets have MAYBE two foundational pieces.
Im taking the giants roster every day over jets and twice on Sunday even without williams.
The giants have some holes but you are given them way too little of credit. Ifneagles dont tank giants are in playoffs. Idc about division, we are a young team with basically a rookie qb last year.
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Who has the worst roster in the NFL? Remember Williams and Thomlinson are no longer on the Giants roster. Giants right up against the cap? Jets 82 million under? Jags 85 million under? Bengals 47 million under? I'd rather be them than the Giants.
Lmao thats the dumbest shit ive ever heard. The giants roster is worse than jets? Jets have MAYBE two foundational pieces.
Im taking the giants roster every day over jets and twice on Sunday even without williams.
The giants have some holes but you are given them way too little of credit. Ifneagles dont tank giants are in playoffs. Idc about division, we are a young team with basically a rookie qb last year.
Great...we're better than the Jets.
The bar is set at the earth's core.
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Interesting. What is his "thing"?
The Giants have a bottom 5 roster and that might be generous since their best defensive player last year probably their best player period, isn't under contract. Another top 5 defensive player last year isn't under contract and the Giants are right against the cap limit with a QB on his rookie deal.
His "thing" like almost everything else surrounding the Giants Front Office sucks.
Abrahms manages the cap. And he's done well in that capacity. If you think the Giants are in poor shape in regards to the cap, you're probably yet another poster who judges cap success by how much money a team is under the cap.
Which means you probably think the more money you get back on taxes is managing your deductions better.
Some folks can't see past the nose on their face. 2021 isn't superb, but we are tops in this area for the next 2-3 years and "they" don't even have us listed in 2024.
Cap space - ( New Window )
You take the hits this year; retain LW and DT so you have a strong DL to build up; and, hope that you really hit with three starters in the first 3 picks!
WR #11 - Waddle
OG 2nd - if we cut Zeitler, we may go with top OL
RB RB/WR - we will go offense the first three round value.
I don't see us picking up more than perhaps one key UFA that costs us, perhaps a pass rusher or even a WR just not one of the top 3 expensive guys. I do like Sammy Watkins as I could see him coming here and being a solid 75-1050-7 type of guy. He has talent.
I think we build this team through the draft. The "KEY" is to retain our own that fit the system AND not miss in the DRAFT, especially the premium first 3 picks.
You take the hits this year; retain LW and DT so you have a strong DL to build up; and, hope that you really hit with three starters in the first 3 picks!
WR #11 - Waddle
OG 2nd - if we cut Zeitler, we may go with top OL
RB RB/WR - we will go offense the first three round value.
I don't see us picking up more than perhaps one key UFA that costs us, perhaps a pass rusher or even a WR just not one of the top 3 expensive guys. I do like Sammy Watkins as I could see him coming here and being a solid 75-1050-7 type of guy. He has talent.
I think we build this team through the draft. The "KEY" is to retain our own that fit the system AND not miss in the DRAFT, especially the premium first 3 picks.
Draft picks will be a crap shoot.
Id take Parsons over Waddle. Waddle size scares me
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anyone who doesn't fit the future: Solder, Zeitler and a few other veterans.
You take the hits this year; retain LW and DT so you have a strong DL to build up; and, hope that you really hit with three starters in the first 3 picks!
WR #11 - Waddle
OG 2nd - if we cut Zeitler, we may go with top OL
RB RB/WR - we will go offense the first three round value.
I don't see us picking up more than perhaps one key UFA that costs us, perhaps a pass rusher or even a WR just not one of the top 3 expensive guys. I do like Sammy Watkins as I could see him coming here and being a solid 75-1050-7 type of guy. He has talent.
I think we build this team through the draft. The "KEY" is to retain our own that fit the system AND not miss in the DRAFT, especially the premium first 3 picks.
Draft picks will be a crap shoot.
Id take Parsons over Waddle. Waddle size scares me
If we get one big UFA it would have to be a WR as there is more quality there than ER (IMHO).
Bottom line: draft well, please.
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In comment 15167505 arniefez said:
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Interesting. What is his "thing"?
The Giants have a bottom 5 roster and that might be generous since their best defensive player last year probably their best player period, isn't under contract. Another top 5 defensive player last year isn't under contract and the Giants are right against the cap limit with a QB on his rookie deal.
His "thing" like almost everything else surrounding the Giants Front Office sucks.
Abrahms manages the cap. And he's done well in that capacity. If you think the Giants are in poor shape in regards to the cap, you're probably yet another poster who judges cap success by how much money a team is under the cap.
Which means you probably think the more money you get back on taxes is managing your deductions better.
Some folks can't see past the nose on their face. 2021 isn't superb, but we are tops in this area for the next 2-3 years and "they" don't even have us listed in 2024.
Cap space - ( New Window )
Some folks - those who know how to do math, that is - understand that you need to conform to this year's cap before 2022 and 2023 matter.
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to look at.
Teams with the most amount of cap space since you could rollover $$$ - starting in 2011 haven't fared very well.
Less than 20% of the top 5 teams in cap space made the playoffs the following three years. The highest percentage of playoff teams came from those with between $10M and $20M in cap space.
You're treating cap space as though it's a contributing factor to making the playoffs. Isn't it much more likely that teams who are closer to the cap have more talent on their roster than teams who have the most available cap space?
The issue isn't the Giants being close to the cap. The issue is being close to the cap with such a mediocre roster.
For FMIC (although anyone else who'd like to participate is welcome to do so):
Here's a very simple metric for you to play with, since you seem to get stuck on available cap space being some sort of indicator of poor cap management, although I don't know why anyone would ever consider lean contracts to be a detriment:
Divide any team's on-the-books occupied cap space by their victories (regular season AND postseason) from the year prior. See how that shakes out. Let me know if you find any teams who are over/underperforming on the cap relative to their on-field success.
And let us know where the Giants stack up on that score.
Looking forward to your thoughts on this, and curious to see if you'll somehow spin this into a defense of DG/KA.